More evidence that a cold climate kills – while trying to sell “stop Brexit”

From the EARTH INSTITUTE AT COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY and the “Columbia’s press release writers have no shame” department comes this load of tosh presser trying to give readers a lesson on Brexit. On the plus side, the paper shows the MWP being warmer than today on Scotland and says nary a word about “Brexit”.


In ancient Scottish tree rings, a cautionary tale on climate, politics and survival

A 1600s famine with echoes in the age of Brexit

Using old tree rings and archival documents, historians and climate scientists have detailed an extreme cold period in Scotland in the 1690s that caused immense suffering. It decimated agriculture, killed as much as 15 percent of the population and sparked a fatal attempt to establish a Scottish colony in southern Panama. The researchers say the episode–shown in their study to have been during the coldest decade of the past 750 years–was probably caused by faraway volcanic eruptions. But it was not just bad weather that brought disaster. Among other things, Scotland was politically isolated from England, its bigger, more prosperous neighbor that might have otherwise helped. Propelled in part by the catastrophe, the two nations merged in 1707 to become part of what is now the United Kingdom. Such a famine-related tragedy was never repeated, despite later climate swings.

With Brexit now threatening to isolate the UK from the European Union, the researchers think politicians should take this as a cautionary tale. “By joining England, Scotland became more resilient,” said lead author Rosanne D’Arrigo, a tree-ring scientist at Columbia University’s Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory. “The bigger message for today is arguably that as the climate changes, nations will be stronger if they stick together and not try to go it alone.” The study appears in the early online edition of the Journal of Volcanology and Geothermal Research.

Winching a long-dead tree from Loch Gamnha, in the Cairngorm Mountains. Scientists have found trees as old as 8,000 years preserved in cold, oxygen-poor lakebed mud.
CREDIT Courtesy Tree Ring Lab, University of St. Andrews.

The “Scottish Ills” have long been noted in history books. In some years, snow from the winter persisted on the ground well into summer, and frosts struck every summer night for weeks. The planting season was cut short, and crops were struck down before they could be harvested. Livestock had nothing to eat. The study quotes Mary Caithness, Countess of Breadalbane, describing “cold misty weather such as the oldest person alive hath not seen.” Other regions including France, England and the Netherlands also suffered unusually cold weather, but generally with less drastic results. In Scandinavia, however, tens of thousands died. It was “likely the worst era of crop failure, food shortage and mortality ever documented in Scottish history,” the researchers write.

Based on the width and density of tree rings the researchers collected, they showed that 1695-1704 was Scotland’s coldest decade in 750 years. This, on top of the fact that much of the northern hemisphere was already in the grip of the so-called Little Ice Age, when cold temperatures were the norm for centuries, until the 1800s. “Before this, we knew it was cold. Now we have an understanding of exactly how cold,” said coauthor Rob Wilson of Scotland’s University of St. Andrews, and an adjunct researcher at Lamont-Doherty. “The whole 17th century must have been a horrible time to live in Scotland, but this was the worst part.”

The researchers say that the Ills coincided closely with multiple large volcanic eruptions. Previous researchers have identified particles in ice cores that traveled long distances from eruptions that probably took place somewhere in the tropics in 1693 and 1695. And Iceland’s Mount Hekla darkened the skies for seven months in 1693. Scientists already know that large-scale volcanism throws sulfate particles into the atmosphere; these deflect sunlight and can lower temperatures far from the eruption itself for years. Thus, the researchers believe the eruptions would explain the chilly weather that hit Scotland and other northern hemisphere nations all at the same time. (Unsurprisingly, the tree rings also show that the warmest century of the record was 1911-2010, almost certainly due to human greenhouse-gas emissions.)

The findings are an outgrowth of the Scottish Pine Project, in which Wilson and his colleagues have been gathering tree-ring samples for the past 10 years in northern Scotland. In the desolate Highlands region of Cairngorms, they have drilled out cores from living trees going back to the 1400s. To extend the record back further, they have snorkeled along the nearshore bottoms of icy lochs, searching for long-dead trees that have fallen in and been preserved over the centuries in cold, oxygen-poor mud. Once they find specimens, they winch them out by hand and take out cross sections with chain saws. The team has also studied buildings whose timbers went back to the 1100s, though these were not included in the climate reconstruction. Their initial chronology was published in 2017. In the course of their work, the team has found trees in the lochs as old as 8,000 years. They are still collecting samples and working to construct a continuous climate record predating the Middle Ages.

A cross section of a tree trunk found in Loch Gamnha, Cairngorm Mountains.

In the new study, the researchers say that climate was not the only factor in the Scottish Ills. “The connection seems simple–volcanic cooling triggered famine–but the drivers toward famine are far more complex,” they write. They cite Scotland’s economic circumstances and political isolation from England as major factors. England had more good farmland and, at the time, better agricultural technology and organization for delivering relief to the poor. While also hit with cool weather, England did not suffer a famine, and probably would have come to the aid of Scotland had the nations been united. Scotland also unwisely encouraged the export of crops at a time when they were needed at home.

At the height of the Ills, the Scots developed an intricate venture to send colonists to the Darien region of Panama. Driven in part by the desperation of the famine, the idea caught on as a national mania, and people of all social and economic classes invested much of their assets–in all, as much as half the nation’s entire liquid capital. Starting in 1698, a total of 2,500 colonists began sailing to this malarial jungle coast. They were quickly cut down by disease, malnutrition (Scotland could ill afford to resupply the colony) and conflicts with Spanish forces, which already controlled much of South and Central America. The colony was abandoned after just 16 months; only a few hundred colonists survived; and Scotland was financially ruined. The inhospitable Darien region remains barely inhabited even today.

“At the time, the Scots saw the colony as a kind of Exodus, where they would start over somewhere new,” said D’Arrigo. “In the end, they couldn’t escape.”

Repeated proposals to unite England and Scotland had come up during the 1600s, but the Scots had resisted. As the famine came to a close, they finally gave in; apparently, many of the gentry making the decision figured that hitching themselves to a greater power would buffer them from further misfortunes. The Acts of Union, passed by the parliaments of Scotland and England, took effect in 1707. Scotland suffered other climate extremes in succeeding centuries, but never again collapsed in this way.

In 2014, more than 300 years after the union, the Scots took a referendum on whether to once again become an independent state; 55 percent voted to stay with the UK. Then came the 2016 UK-wide referendum that set Brexit in motion–deeply unpopular in Scotland, where 62 percent voted to remain in the EU. In last week’s UK parliamentary elections, pro-Brexit forces won overall, but lost resoundingly in Scotland. Many Scots now seem to be reconsidering independence–not because they want to stand alone again, but because independence might allow them to rejoin the larger community of the EU, and leave the isolationist English to fend for themselves. Calls for another independence referendum are already circulating.

“Scotland became more resilient when it became part of a union,” said Wilson. “It’s a cautionary tale from history.”

###

The Paper: (which contains no mention of Brexit)

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0377027319303087?via%3Dihub

  • 1690s coldest decade in a 750-year tree-ring temperature record from Scotland
  • Linked to volcanic cooling pulse
  • Known as the “Ills”, historical linkages to socioeconomic crises including famine
  • Spurred ill-fated expedition of Scots to Panama

Abstract

Recent work has linked historical crises, both regional and local, with palaeoclimatic estimates of global and hemispheric climate change. Such studies tend to underemphasize the spatiotemporal and socioeconomical disparity of human suffering and adaptive capacity as well as the complexities of past climate change. We focus herein on the effects in Scotland of a severely cold climate episode in the 1690s, associated with major tropical volcanic events including a large unidentified tropical eruption in 1695. A tree-ring based summer temperature reconstruction from the northern Cairngorms region identifies the 1690s as the coldest decade in Scotland for the last 750 years. Archival sources meanwhile reveal the 1690s as likely the worst era of crop failure, food shortage, and mortality ever documented in Scottish history. The connection appears simple – volcanic cooling triggered famine – but the drivers towards famine are far more complex. Although the unusual coldness of the 1690s was near-hemispheric in scale, it had a differential impact across north-western Europe. Within Scotland, both lowlands and highlands experienced dire conditions, but distinct factors exacerbated the suffering in each region. We integrate historical and palaeoclimatic records to explore the influence of the volcanic cold pulse of the 1690s and its consequences in Scotland. We find that while cooling temperatures characterized the regional to larger-scale climate, vulnerability and response potential were diverse and shaped by local circumstances. The Scottish crisis of the 1690s, in the context of the kingdom’s failing economy, influenced investors from all parts of society, including the nobility and entire communities, to fund the ill-fated expedition to colonize Darien in modern-day Panama. The climate crisis and the colony’s collapse hindered Scotland’s already sluggish economy, motivating unification with England soon after.

Fig. 1. A: Scottish NCAIRN reconstruction (Rydval et al., 2017) of July–August Scottish mainland temperatures (Jones and Lister, 2004). The three coldest and warmest decades are highlighted in blue and red, respectively (see Table 1). Yellow line is smoothed 20-year low pass filtered version; grey lines are error bars. B: Calibration between NCAIRN and Scottish mainland mean July–August temperatures (Jones and Lister, 2004). C: Spatial correlations (1850–2010) between the NCAIRN reconstruction (Rydval et al. (2017)) and July–August mean temperatures (HadCRUT4 (Morice et al. (2012), with Cowtan and Way (2014) infill). Black stars denote the NCAIRN study region (northern Cairngorms, Scotland) and Darien, Panama. (For interpretation of the references to colour in this figure legend, the reader is referred to the web version of this article.)
0 0 votes
Article Rating

Discover more from Watts Up With That?

Subscribe to get the latest posts sent to your email.

149 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Jeremy Poynton
December 18, 2019 6:13 am

All you need to know about just HOW unreliable tree rings are can be found in the various writings about Professor Flim Flam’s infamous Hockey Stick. Andrew Montford and Steve McIntyrer good writers to start with.

As for Scotland, if they really want out, just make the next Indy referendum UK wide. Guarantee we’ll vote them out.

steve
December 18, 2019 6:56 am

It was very reassuring to hear Al Gore tell the climate change conference in Spain that “Brexit was the stupidest decision a country could take”. At that point I just knew the Tories would win the election and Brexit would be 100% assured, thanks Al !!!!!!!
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7779109/Ex-Vice-President-Al-Gore-slams-Brexit-stupidest-decision-country-taken.html

December 18, 2019 7:05 am

Article sez:
With Brexit now threatening to isolate the UK from the European Union

LOL. Scare-mongering much? How did the poor UK ever survive before the EU & their bureaucrats running everything?

Photios
Reply to  beng135
December 18, 2019 11:59 am

Apparently the Times once printed a story with the following headline:
“FOG IN THE CHANNEL. CONTINENT CUT-OFF”

mothcatcher
December 18, 2019 7:10 am

Is this headpost a climate post, or a political one? Fun either way.

If climate, then the researchers have surely entered a Scottish plea for global warming to proceed unhindered.

If political, and Rob and Roseanne insist on making their tree ring research a plug for anti-Brexit, we need to tell them that they are out of order. Not surprising, though, as I’ll bet that Brexiteers are as rare among the CliSci community as CAGW sceptics (Lewandowsky et al, 2021?).

The view of this English-based, Welsh ancestered, loves Great Britain, sceptic, is that it would be great for Scotland to go it alone – hopefully without making the mistake of tagging along with the EU. Probably good for England, too. The Scots have always pulled their weight, and more, within the Union, and arguably have contributed more to science and technology, per capita, than any other nation. And they THINK OF THEMSELVES as a nation, which is the key thing. Sure, they voted 55-45 against independence a few years ago. I think that was largely due to threats from all quarters of the loss of economic opportunity, and of the substantial funds from London – a forerunner of ‘Project Fear’ during Brexit. In fact, a tally of the economic plusses and minuses is the worst possible basis of all on which to judge the viability of independence. Just see Singapore, and HongKong, to get a taste of how huge strides can be made with near-zero natural resources, and near-zero outside money.

The downside of independence is that in Scotland there is a very big socialist majority (SNP is indistinguishable from labour in much policy), and that is a fear that may cause centrists and rightists to vote to stay. But a lot of that socialism may evaporate after independence, when Scots will have to face the realities of running a real country.

Of course I do hope they will stay, but that’s just emotion.

jim hogg
Reply to  mothcatcher
December 18, 2019 11:21 am

At last: a balanced view. Thank you Mothcatcher.

Photios
Reply to  mothcatcher
December 18, 2019 12:02 pm

Speaking from Glasgow, I love you too 🙂

Edwin Cottey
December 18, 2019 7:11 am

This remarquable cold period is echoed in the Central England Temperature record. It shows the decadel mean annual temperature falling over 1 degree celsius from 9.2 degrees in 1660 to 8.1 degrees in 1700. However, more interestingly, the next 40 year period saw temperatures bounce back by nearly twice that amount. By the end of the 1730’s they were around 9.9 degrees, a rise of 1.8 degrees celsius. The CET also shows that during the current warm period temperatures have risen by only 1.1 degrees over the 40 years from 1970 to 2010, going from 9.3 degrees to 10.4. So the current ‘man-made’- rise in temperature is not as great as the rise then. It also means, of course, that the current decadel mean (to 2010) annual temperature is only 0.5 degrees warmer than it was in the early 18th century. So much for the climate crisis!!

a_scientist
December 18, 2019 7:26 am

The medieval warm period looks clear in this non-Mannean reconstruction. Those peaks around year 1300 look warmer than the current warm spell.

Bindidon
Reply to  a_scientist
December 18, 2019 12:44 pm

a_scientist

“The medieval warm period looks clear in this non-Mannean reconstruction. ”

Correct! But… in the graph upthread

comment image?w=691&ssl=1

you see

NCAIRN: Scottish JA mean temperature reconstruction

Did you ever see in a hockey stick graph any mention of the data having been reduced to Scotland’s July/August mean? I can’t recall that.

AaronC
December 18, 2019 7:54 am

But, but, but, the Manniac says there was no LIA nor MWP!

December 18, 2019 8:21 am

“volcano eruptions that probably took place somewhere in the tropics in 1693 and 1695. ”
That may explain the dip around 1690. However, what caused the steady decline beginning around 1500 from a point that is higher than today’s high????

Bindidon
Reply to  Usurbrain
December 18, 2019 1:09 pm

Usurbrain

“However, what caused the steady decline beginning around 1500 from a point that is higher than today’s high?”

I think most specialists agree upon the decline having begun much earlier (remeber that you look here very locally at Scotland in July/August), probably around 1300/1350.

But as usual, there are two rather contradicting parties:

(1) – those telling the cause was a sequence of solar minima (Oort, Wolf, Spörer) preceeding the Maunder Minimum; you see their trace below, discovered with the help of 14C located in tree rings

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5c/Carbon14_with_activity_labels.svg

and

(2) – those relating this decline to a rather tremendous sequence of huge volcano eruptions, starting with

– 1257 Samalas, Indonesia, VEI 7/8

and continuing with

– 1280 Quilotoa, Andes VEI 6
– 1452/3 Kuwae, Vanuatu, VEI 6+
– 1477 Bárðarbunga, Island, VEI 6
– 1563 Agua de Pau, Acores, VEI 5
– 1580 Billy Mitchell, Solomon Island, VEI 6
– 1586 Kelut, Island, VEI 5
– 1600, Huaynaputina, Peru, VEI 6
– 1641, Mount Melibengoy, Phillipines VEI 6
– 1650, Kolumbo, Greece, VEI 6
– 1660, Long Island, Papua New Guinea, VEI 6

and inbetween all these, about 35 eruptions with VEI 3-4.

According to their idea, these volcano eruptions disconnected ocean surfaces from solar irradiation through their huge amounts of aerosols having reached the stratosphere, what led to a rather global cooling.

Maybe it’s a combination of the two…

B d Clark
Reply to  Bindidon
December 19, 2019 5:06 am

For a volcano to have a effect on the atmosphere the ejection of aerosols would have to be above a certain hight to circulate in the atmosphere to have a meaningful effect,.and only certain types of volcanos, have this type of ejective capability, neither of which you have identified in your theory.

Nor have you identified/correlated volcanic eruptions that happen during/ just prior too and in SCs maxima /minima and effects the minima have on CRF effecting magma below the earths near surface .

B d Clark
Reply to  Bindidon
December 19, 2019 7:34 pm

Bindidon I see you failed to answer my questions yet again.apart from 2 of the above dates the volcano eruptions happened well within the little ice age. LIA approx 1290-1800 which enveloped the sporer,maunder .starting with the wolf GSM 1280,1350.approx with the dalton min 1790-1820 the whole LIA was dominated just before its beginning and just after its end by GSMs .to insinuate this extreme period of cold was started by volcanic eruptions simply is not true ,to state the volcanic actions were a consequence of GSM and Sm fits the evidence ,yet again another point you have failed to answer too is minima solar cycles that effect the planet with reduced TSI and CRF which effect the plasticity of magma chambers and charge tectonic regions no wonder you compiled a list of stratospheric volcanoes that blew their tops during the LIA,volcanic action is not a cause of LIA it’s a consequence, the next question is what effect did these stratospheric ejections have did they prolong the LIA ,unlikely aerosols from volcanos last typically 1-3 years in the atmosphere. they likely contributed to cooling within the aerosols time in the atmosphere, the prevailing cause of 500 years of cooling was rolling GSMs /SMs ,

For someone who likes to think hes a researcher predominantly trying to counter any evidence of past cooling and its causes and present cooling ,your failing miserably.

Charlie
December 18, 2019 8:21 am

Bizarre article. Let’s say an independent Scotland gets hit with some sort of climate catasrophe such as the one mentioned in the article. The Scottish government would ask for help in the form of food supplies. Are we supposed to believe the reply from everyone they ask would be ‘Sorry, you have no political arrangement with us. We can’t help’.

Photios
Reply to  Charlie
December 18, 2019 12:05 pm

I’m sure Sir Bob would arrange a sing-song and pass the hat around.

December 18, 2019 8:27 am

“and leave the isolationist English to fend for themselves.”

Its an old argument to say that people who wanted BREXIT are isolationist or “Little Englanders”.

In the EU there are no trade deals for the 28 countries, all 28 states have a common deal with a non EU state.

You can imagine the horse trading that goes on among the 28 members trying to agree a common deal.

Out of the EU the UK will be able to negotiate a trade deal with any country in the world plus the EU, to suit the UK and the other country.

That is not isolationist it is internationalist.

We are looking worldwide to broker agreements with all countries that want to trade with the UK and avoid the tariffs within the WTO system.

Bring it on, it will be good.

PS: we like European countries we just do not want to be controlled by them, that’s all….

tonyb
Editor
Reply to  Steve Richards
December 18, 2019 9:19 am

Steve

You will remember that the slogan at the referendum for Leave was ‘out of Europe and into the world’. Those claiming that England seeks isolation just did not understand Brexit. As you rightly say we love our European family but dislike the faction trying to control them

tonyb

Patrick MJD
Reply to  Steve Richards
December 19, 2019 2:34 am

“Steve Richards December 18, 2019 at 8:27 am

Out of the EU the UK will be able to negotiate a trade deal with any country in the world plus the EU, to suit the UK and the other country.”

Not if the EU follows their plans to ban any EU member state from trading with the UK post Brexit if any of those products and services do not meet EU climate policy criteria. Not sure how they are going to police that. I do know someone here in Australia does not trade, selling electrical instruments like multi-meters, with the EU because of red tape. He still trades with America and Canada. I think the EU will suffer more given it’s simply a German-Franco love-in thing anyway. BTW, I found out recently that one reason why the German car industry can claim reductions in emissions is the fact many of the cars are made in other countries. The Mk6 Golf and the Polo are made in South Africa. The Amarok ute is made in Argentina. Many of the big EU makers make cars in other countries outside the EU as well as cheaper labour costs in countries in the EU like Poland.

B d Clark
December 18, 2019 9:49 am

I think Scotland needs a post to put its recent history in to context ( I have never lived or desire to live in Scotland) albeit under English rule.shipbuilding world renowned, farming , even producing grains in its harsh climate, the aesthetic arts and crafts movement again world renowned, it’s own law courts judiciary system, literary scholars poet’s, medical schools and scholars, universities world class, and extraction industries. that’s what comes to mind at the mo. And vast areas of mountains and lochs in a harsh cold environment, they achieved all this more or less under English rule.they have always had a nationalist element but this should not be confused with a proud culture, nationalism is driven in Scotland by politics ,its been a long time since the English oppressed the scotch and they achieved all of the above after them bloody days, the celts were thriving there, the Roman’s did not get a foot hold.if I was a scotch chap, I would think I have already more independence than any other UK nation , I can trade with my larger UK brother with no tariffs and border check points I have a parliament who can negotiate on my behalf and make decisions , why would I want to leave one union and swap it for another.

Loren Wilson
December 18, 2019 10:50 am

“Before this, we knew it was cold. Now we have an understanding of exactly how cold,” said coauthor Rob Wilson. Not if they are using tree rings. Too many factors affect tree rings to be able to claim that it is an exact thermometer.

yirgach
December 18, 2019 11:01 am

(Unsurprisingly, the tree rings also show that the warmest century of the record was 1911-2010, almost certainly due to human greenhouse-gas emissions.)

Now that we have been unsurprised, does the author have any actual proof of this statement?
Couldn’t possibly also unsurprisingly been due to any natural variation now, could it?

Patrick MJD
Reply to  yirgach
December 19, 2019 12:00 am

It’s not a statement of proof. It was almost certainly made to secure more funding.

Steve Z
December 18, 2019 11:54 am

If the researchers pulled trees out of a Scottish bog to analyze their rings, how do they know how long ago each tree fell into the bog, unless there is some written record that tree X fell into the bog in year Y?

The tree rings would tell scientists how old each tree was when it died, but if no one knows in what year it died, they wouldn’t know which years were represented by the narrow rings.

Whether this cold period in Scotland around 1700 is a lesson for modern times is highly debatable. Both England and Scotland were agricultural economies in 1700, although England (and other European countries) derived considerable wealth from colonies in North and South America back then.

In today’s industrialized world, England is far more industrialized than Scotland, but the UK’s recent vote most likely means that the UK will separate from the European Union. There are no more colonies, but the UK can benefit from trade with the United States if trade with the EU is reduced after Brexit.

After Brexit, Scotland will remain the coldest and least industrialized part of the UK, so economically they have more to gain by remaining in the UK rather than trying to be an independent nation with a small land area, very little industry, and few natural resources. Whether the Scots realize this will be up to them.

Michael Carter
December 18, 2019 11:59 am

The solution is simple (where are those stupid diplomats?):

England is to adopt haggis as a national dish. Problem over. That’s how you court a man right?

“Haggis is a savoury pudding containing sheep’s pluck (heart, liver, and lungs), minced with onion, oatmeal, suet, spices, and salt, mixed with stock, and cooked while traditionally encased in the animal’s stomach”

Yummy

PS . We (New Zealand) produce a lot of sheep’s stomachs. We are trying to breed emission-free sheep too.

Free trade deal please.

Patrick MJD
Reply to  Michael Carter
December 18, 2019 11:28 pm

Have you ever driven behind, or over taken, a cattle truck in NZ? I have, when the animal slurry is allowed to spill over the edge of the trailer on to the road or on to your car. Wonderful! That is more damaging, very slippery stuff to driver on, than any emissions from cattle!

Gumnut
Reply to  Michael Carter
December 18, 2019 11:49 pm

Haggis is quite possibly like Brexit.

A northern Pom* thing.

Or at least a pan-border job.

*English (translated for those outside of the Commonwealth).

Dr Deanster
December 18, 2019 12:47 pm

Read through a few post, figured someone would have jumped on it ….. maybe they did later ….

BUT ….. did anyone else notice it was warmer back in 1200 according to this tree ring chronology than it is today?

Patrick MJD
Reply to  Dr Deanster
December 18, 2019 11:31 pm

Yes, I did however, they are using tree ring proxy data and we already know treemometers don’t make good thermometers. How may trees were used?

Bindidon
December 18, 2019 1:55 pm

Dr Deanster

“BUT ….. did anyone else notice it was warmer back in 1200 according to this tree ring chronology than it is today?”

Yes! I did!

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/12/17/more-evidence-that-a-cold-climate-kills-while-trying-to-sell-stop-brexit/#comment-2874061

Rudolf Huber
December 18, 2019 2:38 pm

The evidence for drastic climatic changes over the last thousands of years is crushing. Temperatures have been a lot colder just about 300 years ago and they have been much warmer than now about 900 years ago. I have asked this many times and I will certainly do so many more times. All those extreme swings occurred before the industrial revolution and ergo before humans were supposedly able to alter the climate. CO2 was stable at all those times. It has never been the culprit for all those extreme changes. And now, a much more moderate change, it is blamed for the ills of the world? Come on.

Phils Dad
December 18, 2019 8:24 pm

Just to put peoples’ minds at rest; I am sure the EU will manage without us, even if the weather turns colder.

Gumnut
December 18, 2019 11:25 pm

‘Nations should stick together.’

Yes. And no.

Scotland may as well have taken their independence as part of the EU. Alba gu brath and all that.

But with Brexit, the landscape changes. The UK needs Scotland rather more now and Scotland would do well to wait and see, rather than rush out of the British union and back into the European one.

Mike Haseler (Scottish Sceptic)
December 19, 2019 12:10 am

There is not a single road or ferry link between Scotland and the EU & Scotland is massively funded by the UK, and the anti-fossil fuel lunatic SNP try to pretend “we’ll live on oil money” ??? They are barmy. For Scotland to leave the UK would be economic suicide and a nightmare.

So why have the separatist anti-English SNP grown the entire time the UK has been in the EU. Because we’ve been in the EU, and like the old Holy Roman empire, the game is to destroy the nation states and divide and conquer. That is why separatist groups have grown in the UK, in Spain and undoubtedly will grow in Germany, Italy, France etc.

So, why were the SNP against Brexit? The only reason the SNP could be against SELF-DETERMINATION for the UK, was either:
1. They don’t believe in self-determination (which would be daft – but stupidity is not in short supply in the SNP)
2. They hate the English and were just against it for that reason (which is undoubtedly true of some in SNP).
3. They knew that when the UK left the EU, it would become impossible for Scotland to leave the UK (which would make sense – but common sense and SNP are not fellow travellers).