Meatless Diet?

 

News Brief by Kip Hansen

 

featured_image_meatFrom the NY Times’ seemingly unlimited stockpile of odd activist efforts on behalf of “The Climate” — we have a new entry that landed in my email box today [it could land in yours too if you subscribe to the newsletter, Climate Fwd:] —

 

 

What if We All Ate a Bit Less Meat?

By Jillian Mock

Jillian Mock writes a glowing report of how much land would be freed up and how many tons of reduced CO2 emissions would result if everyone just ate a bit less meat. She references a study from Scientific Reports section of Nature titled, in the modern way,  “Environmentally Optimal, Nutritionally Sound, Protein and Energy Conserving Plant Based Alternatives to U.S. Meat”.

The cited study does not concern itself with partial replacement of meat in American diets, but only with total meat replacement (either replacing red meats or all meats).   I could guess that the data about partial replacement of meat in diets comes from the date coincident (released 8 August 2019) IPCC Special Report “Climate Change and Land”.

The brief of the new studies meatless diet for Americans is this:

Diet composition, nutrient delivery, and share of resource use

In daily per capita mass, buckwheat, soy, pears, and kidney beans dominate the all meat replacement, while green pepper, soy, asparagus, and squash dominate the beef only replacement …… Because these lists partly reflect the list of plant items we use and the upper mass bounds we impose …, they are unlikely to be the globally optimal plant replacements to the two meat masses and types (that is, more nutritious or environmentally sound alternatives may exist using items not included here). They also take no note of tastes, cuisines or palates, and may thus prove suboptimally deployable.

Please raise your hands if you would be willing to give up all meat in your diet and predominately replace it with “buckwheat, soy, pears, and kidney beans”.  

Thank you, hands down.

Now, hands up,  those willing to replace only the beef eating predominately green pepper, soy, asparagus, and squash.

Thank you, hands down.

Now farmers only, please:  Assuming that we could raise the buckwheat (replacing other grains already cultivated) and already may raise enough soy (if we quit feeding it to animals to make meat), hands up if you think we could shift to raise sufficient pears, green peppers, asparagus and kidney beans to replace the total protein requirement of all the humans in the United States?    Hands up for “yes”.

Thank you, I notice there were no hands up.

There is a mostly critical article in Scientific American on the paper.

This is yet another popular science meme to push less- and no-meat diets — mostly by people that have had more-than-adequate diet choices all their lives.  Speaking from personal experience among the poor in the Caribbean and South America, people who have been forced by poverty and circumstance to survive on diets lacking meat protein would not have  raised their hands to the propositions above.

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Author’s Comment Policy:

My family and I ascribe to a diet that already calls for eating meat sparingly, thus meat is often a side-dish or added for flavor and texture to what is primarily a grain and vegetable based diet.  Thus, this is not a personal issue for me.

The issue for me is yet another pie-in-the-sky, totally impossible to implement, bubble-headed plan to save the planet from climate change by imposing bizarre restrictions on the free-will choices of the people of this (and other) countries.

I wouldn’t object so much if the proposals made any type of pragmatic, real-world sense at all.

Let me know which proposals you raised your hand to.

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242 thoughts on “Meatless Diet?

  1. Patient: Doctor,every time I sneeze,I have an orgasm.
    Doctor: Are you taking anything for it?
    Patient: Ground pepper!

  2. A kid swallowed a coin and it got stuck in his throat.His mother yelled for help.A man passing by hit him in the small of the back,and the coin came out.
    “I don’t know how to thank you, Doctor…,” his mother started.
    “I”m not a doctor,” the man replied,”I’m from the IRS”.

  3. Also think of all that extra fibre in the billions of human guts tripped by the fructose switch…methane off the charts. Plus with the floods wiping out soy corn and bean crops…well pull in the belts! Siri irriots.

  4. Somebody needs to re-educate all those carnivores up and down the food chain that their canine teeth, beaks and talons are so uncultured, so yesterday. They need to be hunting beans, pears and asparagus. When all life is vegan, utopia will be upon us.

    • No, no, no! Don’t encourage people to hunt these tree/ground dwelling creatures, they are so dangerous, someone might fall from climbing to reach a nice ripe pear, or seriously damage their backs digging in the ground! Sarc 😉

    • “… how much land would be freed up and how many tons of reduced CO2 emissions would result …”

      Umm, no, it wouldn’t. Dump chickens, cows and hogs as food sources and replace them with plant-based stuff and the acreage required to produce enough of it to feed the human population would – no, WILL – increase exponentially. Plants take more room to grow than cattle and hogs. They also have to be weeded and harvested. (I know – weed killers ARE used, but she would shrink screaming from the thought of Roundup.) The amount of fuel needed to maintain an all-plant-based food supply WILL exponentially increase CO2 and other exhaust emissions.

      That female person needs a trip to a grain farm and another one to a veggie / orchard plantation. She’s so full of ignorance, it sticks out like a sore thumb. She can get off her bony patootie and go work at an orchard + berry farm and see how she likes it.

      • Those who want to know the best science on diet should read Nina Teicholz’ book “The Big Fat Surprise” and Dr. Weston A. Price’s “Nutrition and Physical Degeneration.” Just the photos alone in Price’s book will make you very, VERY afraid of the diet “our betters” would like to foist on us. I’ll give you a cut-to the chase short list of why:

        (1) Saturated fat comprises the membranes of every single cell in our bodies; the brain is made very largely of nothing but, and it’s also the myelin sheaths of our nerves. No natural animal fat puts one at risk for cancers, autoimmune diseases, Alzheimer’s, MS, Parkinson’s, and accelerated aging.
        It is also absolutely required for healthy fertility for both male and female. Soy-boy ain’t just a tag.

        (2) Every traditional culture fed newlywed, pregnant and nursing women special nutrient and fat-rich animal foods to support the pregancy and the growing baby. Every baby got human breast milk, not sugar and soy formula. Every baby was weaned onto Mom-chewed meats, not vegetables. Every kid on the planet has to be MADE to eat their veg for a reason; many are inflammatory, low-grade poisonous, hormone disruptors, or all damn three! We don’t crave them instinctually for a REASON–we only ate them when that’s all we could get, as in bad hunting day. Animal products, with full fat, are 100% biologically necessary for normal childhood development of the brain.

        (3) Humans completely lack the cecum and hindgut necessary to digest cellulose plant matter by fermentation, which all herbivores have. Therefore, about 95% or more of all veg matter eaten is excreted as indigestable fiber, which raises hell with many people’s guts. Grains are even worse.
        New research shows that the bran fad of 25 years ago probably created more colon cancer than prevented it. Additionally, the small amounts of vitamins and minerals present in veg are in forms not easily absorbed; think 5% vs. 95% when eating meat. Why eat tons of a calorie-poor, nutrient-poor, nearly tasteless and expensive food we’re ill-equipped by Nature to utilize?

        (4) These green nutters don’t want to understand that nearly all the grasslands used to graze cattle and sheep are arid, remote, and otherwise fundamentally unsuitable for the raising of row crops. They yawp about feedlots, but every cow spends all but the last couple of months of its life on grass, efficiently converting all that green unusable by our bodies into the best form we can eat.
        Nature provides the space, the grass, the sun and the rain; we provide the cows. Oh, and BTW, those millions of bison that used to roam the American plains never caused the ice caps to melt.

        (5) Wanna cut down? Easy-peasy, go FULL CARNIVORE, you’ll quickly find you only need to eat once or twice in 24 hours. Man, does THAT free up a block of time! Plus cuts food waste to zero, and you never get tired of bacon, eggs, and ribeye ask me how I know! 😉 Lost 40 lbs., all my arthritis, and gut discomforts too. Amazing what happens when you follow evolution’s design . . .

        (5) It’s way past time people who know the actual fact that the world moves further every year AWAY from Malthusian nightmares, started pushing back against this LUNATIC FRINGE 1% trying to dictate what everyone else thinks, eats, drinks, and drives.

        • Oddly, you’re on the money there. I got an attack of something almost immediately after my flu shot last fall, something that lasted all winter, made my life a living hell and sent me to living on dairy products like milk and ice cream (yes, ICE CREAM) because nothing else would stay down. As much as I love V8 juice and apples and things like that, the meat and the dairy that I ate instead of grain products kept me going and settled my poor, beleaguered stomach and now I”m out of that problem.
          Yes, I still eat grapes and apples and all that other stuff, but crackers and bread right now just do not agree with me at all. I think you’re right on the nose about it, too.

        • We are omnivores, our digestive systems are more similar to pigs than most apes. We are well equipped to handle many vegetables and grains, but they are supposed to be eaten raw or mostly raw in a form that our trillions of gut bacteria can digest.

          Kids and adults don’t want to eat their veggies because they are over-cooked into nutrient deficient and awful tasting mush. If you go full carnivore, you better eat liver at least once a week.

          • Why liver?
            Many people would get too much iron, which can lead to all sorts of problems.

      • Sara,

        You voiced what I was thinking — that an all-plant-based diet would be far more resource intensive than an all-inclusive diet.

        I speak as a one-time vegetarian (many years ago). During those years, I swore off meat, did the soy thing, supplements, protein-complementarity thing, sometimes fasted. It was a good way to learn about the content of the foods we eat.

        As I got older, however, I swore off vegetarianism. I still have the knowledge that I gained from those vegetarian years, NOW combined (in reasonable proportion) with MEAT.

        I suspect that meat eaters live more satisfying lives.

      • And cattle, sheep, goats, and bison can be grown in land that is too rough, or the soil too thin and infertile for edible plants. Pigs consume significant quantities of waste food from sources like restaurants. More use could be made of feral pigs and wild deer, particularly where they have become a nuisance. If people would acquire a taste for python, Florida could become a major supplier of meat. Also, animals will take themselves to a water source. Agriculture in marginal lands requires an irrigation infrastructure, often supported by dams that cover land.

        Once again, people driven by ideology view the world with their blinders on.

        • Or they view utopia as elimination of 95% of humans – excluding THEMSELVES, of course.

      • Best way to eliminate the GHG released by cattle is to drive them to the slaughter house then cook-em and eat-em

    • Absolutely true. Unfortunately, as I have Coronary Artery Disease, I pretty much gave up beef, lamb, duck and a few other meat and poultry choices from my diet after my heart attack, on doctor’s orders. My darling, beautiful ex-fiance (to use a marvelous phrase found on this site) also chose to switch diets. Doesn’t mean that I don’t like those foods, but they are surely more appealing than tofu, kale and quinoa.

      • A ketogenic diet of 85% monosaturated fats (butter, olice oil, avocado oil, meat grease, etc.) 15% protein (meat, etc.) and 5% carbohydrates (lettuse broccoli, cauliflower, etc) scavenges fat out of the cardiovascular system and adipose fat tissues. Physicians are said to have little training in nutrition as a general rule, and what they did learn came from nutritionists who were trained to do the opposite of what had been the unpublished USDA Food Pyramid Guide by Lusie Light, EdD. Because the lobbyists succeeded in upending Light’s original version of her USDA Food Pyramid Guide over her objections, her anticipated epidemic of obesity related diabetes and other diseases became a reality. The AMA & ADA are only just now grudgingly beginning to acknowledge some people benefit from a ketogenic diet. Some doctors are amazed when their ketogenic patients are testing with excellent cholesterol results after the ketogenic diet helped to remove fat from the cardiovascular system. See:
        A Fatally Flawed Food Guide
        by Luise Light, Ed.D
        2004
        http://www.whale.to/a/light.html

        • Ketones are produced by the body when it is is in moderate to severe stress. Low cholesterol and weight loss are signs of malnutrition in this diet, and not necessarily an indication of health benefit.

          • Nonsens, when you use the right definition for ‘ketogenic’. Just read some of the work of Stephen Phinney and Jeff Volek.

        • Plant protein is simply not a replacement for animal protein. The human body utilizes much more of the animal protein you eat, so you would have to eat enormous amounts of fruits and vegetables to get the same nutritional value. The low fat, high carb diet pushed by the AHA is sort of like AGW with no scientific backing, just a “consensus” of “experts”. It also coincides with the high level of obesity in the US. Ridding your diet of simple carbohydrates will do much more than eliminating meat.

          • Exactly. Where are the eight amino acids that are found almost exclusively in animal protein? We are looking at long term malnutrition for the entire world populations. Of course, that is the goal of the UN’s Agenda 21 world government which would have to be communist and totalitarian. The people will have trouble rebelling if they are chronically malnourished. There is an old adage from India that red meat causes war, which would be because a person eating red meat has the health and energy to rebel against oppression while the malnourished tend to be low energy and passive.

          • Isn’t it amazing that government agencies, such as the USDA, have been studying food and diets for over 100 years and look where it’s gotten us?

            One has to wonder, do they have our best interests in mind?

          • Bingo, there is absolutely no way to get the DHA essential fatty acids without eating meat. DHA is vital for brain health, especially for the growing brains of children. We are now decades into fluoridated water supplies and some families going vegetarian/vegan, and I suspect the diminished IQs are at least partially to blame for the extraordinarily popular delusion of climate madness.

          • What’s not widely known is that a lot of those “experts” with Harvard and the WHO are also Seventh-Day Adventists, a religious sect requiring strict vegetarianism. They have had a lock on UN diktats about “world diet” since the 1950’s. This needs some daylight and soon.
            There is zippo “science” behind things like the EAT Lancet report last winter, it’s 100% ideological.

            One might wonder why the UN wants the world population fat, sick, pharma-dependent, muzzy-brained, easily led, effeminate and infertile, eh?

      • after the complete reversal this week from the aus food mobs
        ie fullcream ilk etc and now 7 eggs a week being fine again..
        with the caveat of 300 or so GRAMS of meat a week, implying chook n pork are better than beef
        frankly I will continue as I alwys have,full cream and all the fat on the meat eaten first;-)
        and never ever take a stain drug, unless you supp with coq10
        but with the side effects possibly being alzheimers from the statins also starving the brain of the fats it requires to function
        easier to avoid the meds
        thye pharmas supposed proof of efficacy is parlous.
        POVERTY is why people arent able to eat the redmeat they would.
        we used to have meat every day at least one meal now?
        its at best 2 or 3 by having no money, not no desire to eat better.

      • You should go back to beef and minimize your carbohydrates. It’s the high blood glucose levels that irritate and damage the arterial walls. Cholesterol is a healing drug you need to fix the damage. Also, polyunsaturated fatty acids are harder to metabolize while saturated and monounsaturated fats in meat are just fine. If you are on a statin, which is really just a poison to stop liver production of cholesterol, stop taking it. Not only are statins bad in a number of ways, they do not decrease heart disease but they do increase liver cancer and liver failure. Statins are a billion dollar industry and it’s all based on junk science started by Anzel Keyes in the 1950s.

        I know many very old geezers in Maine who eat 4-6 eggs every morning and still go fishing every morning, which indicates that they are not hurting themselves.

        A secret they do not want you to know is that males with the highest cholesterol tend to live the longest, particularly if they tend to be a little underweight.

      • You need a new doctor, Jim; that advice you’re getting is 40 years behind the times. It’s now known that it’s the CARBS, the starchy swill they’ve been ordering us to eat since 1980, that’s causing the inflammatory condition giving you CAD. Please investigate the carnivore/ketogenic way. Start with Dr. Ken D. Berry MD on YouTube. Believe me, there are much more human-friendly ways to cure your heart disease than the Godawful and ineffective AHA diet!

      • Retired Jim,
        1. being retired, are you past your “best by” date?
        2. how many Mountain Lions have Coronary Artery Disease?

      • As a general rule avoid the ‘heart healthy tick’ and you would be good to go, the irony of that when I found that out wasn’t lost on me.

        My Cholesterol is an extremely high 9.5 mmol/L (over 360 mg/dL), but with a healthy blood pressure and only fairly early markers of pre diabeties my later calcium scan (commonly called a CAC score) was 0. This probably had something to do with home grown animal products and plenty of them when I was growing up. Thus my doctor knew and admitted they had no way to force me to take statins to lower a marker that isn’t causing ill health, which the LDL part of lipids does not cause in of itself except if its too low (low LDL can be used as a marker of high cancer risk) or you have something like familial hypercholesterolemia which generally leads to oxidised LDLs.

        Dave Feldman, a software engineer but his work is excellent in the field of looking into lipids recently showed that people who had High HDL, Low Triglycerides and Very High LDLs in a large dataset called NHANES were well represented in good health outcomes. 4 of the 5 living centenarians in the study for example fit the 3 requirements while the fifth had slightly high Triglycerides but matched the other 2. There were other areas that this type consistantly showed that risk was very low for early cardio vascular disease. This type was labelled Lean Mass Hyper responders and generally show up in a small subset of people who follow some form of low carbohydrate diets.

        Now on the issue with those that have some form of advancing CVD (cardio vascular disease), there has been some limited success in people lowering such things as their calcium score (CAC). Vitamin K2, found in animal fats as MK4 and only a couple of fermented plant products (does not occur naturally) as MK7 is a vitamin involved in the process of cleaning up calcium deposits and perhaps even the macrophages responsible for the foam cells the calcium covers to stop the foam cells that form a soft plaque from causing a problem. There is 0 K2 in vegetable oils but plenty in butter.

        All I can say is do your own research. My sources are generally from the ketogenic/carnivore community so if you think there is a bias then don’t take my word for it and certainly don’t take a prescription machine’s word at face value either.

        More on topic those thinking that animal agriculture is a problem should check out the work of Agronomist Dr Peter Ballerstedt.

    • co2isnotevil

      Ah!….Now, this is where a Butternut Squash, garlic and Kale serve a useful purpose.

      De-seed, peel and dice the squash. Put it in a shallow baking tray. Finely dice (lots of) the garlic and add it to plenty of Olive oil. Pour most over the squash and roast in an over around 350F for 40 minutes or so, or until caramelised.

      Put remainder of the Oil in a large skillet and add plenty of Kale. fry gently until cooked until it starts to crisp.

      Divide both into 3 or 4 portions and add to a well warmed plate, season, then add a large, medium rare Rib Eye steak.

      Devour with gusto!

      PS. Best tip I have ever found for cooking steak: No less than 40 minutes before cooking it, add a sprinkle of salt on both sides and leave. The salt tenderises the middle of the steak before cooking.

      From their cold dead hands will I retrieve that recipe; from any vegan who cares to deprive me of it!

      • Its tuff to “tenderize” a bad cut of steak.

        Even iffen an electric “cuber” or meat tenderizing hammer is used.

        “Aging” tenderizes beef and venison.

        Onions are a natural “tenderizer”, ….. aka: fried liver and onions, …. venison and onions.

      • Try making kale soup. It’s a mishmash of vegetables (except for beets) and beans and kale and ham or beef sausage. And 15-bean soup will keep me going for a week (if the pot lasts that long.)

        • I like 7 bean stew with Ground Beef, Bacon, and 3 different types of sausage over white rice.
          I make it in a Crock Pot and let it simmer for 6 hours…YUM

    • You can try to pry the bacon, ham and chicken, never mind beef smoked sausage, from my cold dead hands. I’m taking that with me to the very end, and I will outlive that silly bimp, too.

    • Exactly. Where are the eight amino acids that are found almost exclusively in animal protein? We are looking at long term malnutrition for the entire world populations. Of course, that is the goal of the UN’s Agenda 21 world government which would have to be communist and totalitarian. The people will have trouble rebelling if they are chronically malnourished. There is an old adage from India that red meat causes war, which would be because a person eating red meat has the health and energy to rebel against oppression while the malnourished tend to be low energy and passive.

      Also, a large majority of the world meat animals are graze on land that cannot raise crops, being too hilly or rocky or insufficient rainfall. Getting rid of this fraction of the food supply would be beyond stupid, and tell us that getting rid of meat altogether is a political plot, not with human health or even maximizing the food supply in mind.

  5. Is there NOTHING that won’t piggyback onto the CAGW FRAUD?! I guess it’s the best game going, so every fringe nutter group simply attaches their pet proselytizing project onto CAGW and voila! people start taking them seriously. The fringe left’s entire 1st-world smorgasbord of “problems” is getting shoved down the public gullet like a slippery brick of tofu.

    I eat my ancestral FRENCH diet. I eat and enjoy EVERYTHING. Anything and everything. We eat it all. Every meal, balanced. Almost no processed foods ever (almost – hey, I’m American … and honest). No leftist nutter is gonna tell me what bits of my diet are politically “acceptable” … and which aren’t. Bugger off.

  6. Kip Hansen:

    Natural evolution over millions of years has made humans to be omnivores.

    Pretending that humans are herbivores is unnatural: i.e. it is a perversion.

    Richard

    • Don’t forget Richard, these new rules are not for the wealthy elites, they are meant for the hoi poloi, the peasant stock! Reminds me of that fabulous ITV Sci-Fi spoof from the late 70s early 80s, with I think the late great Ian Hendry & Ronald Lacey as the two wandering astronauts, where they landed on a planet full of waste & rubbish everywhere, with the peasants wallowing in it, yet the elites were literally in their ivory towers, living the life of total luxury, & if the room temperature cooled uncomfortably, the message went down the line to below stairs, where the peasants were crowded, & ordered to move about more to create more sweat to generate more heat for the ruling elites above. I suspect that is what lies in store for the rest of us, at least if the elites get their way! 😉

    • Richard ==> Quite right — humans (primates in general) are omnivores — we eat anything with food value. many people are shocked to find that monkeys of various types also kill and eat other animals — sometimes other moneys. Birds too are often secret omnivores — eating meats and insects– dead and alive.

        • — sometimes other moneys

          So that was a typo but not the one I thought .
          I thought you meant to say “— sometimes other’s money” referring to the result of Green policies. 😎

      • Hi Kip,

        I didn’t raise my hand to any of your three questions. What most surprises me about these kinds of articles, though, is how in lock-step they all are. Who dreamed up the ‘if we could just give up meat the world would be a paradise’ meme? I suspect some cynic who enjoys convincing people black is white and then sent out his talking points to his list of morons.

        Full disclosure – I am a vegetarian: I eat vegetables pretty much every day. I grow them in my garden. I also eat fruit, at least as much as I can grow and harvest before the possums and fruit bats and parrots get them first. Last survey of primate feeding ecology I read claimed that all primates are primarily fruit-eaters, even gorillas, and only eat veggies when they must, so I feel I’m on evolutionarily solid ground here. I’m not too keen on embryonic grasses, other than corn on the cob; but otherwise, I’m pretty happy munching on the Plant Kingdom. I’ll also eat mushrooms, rotten microbial products (cheese, yogurt, etc.), bee vomit (honey is what happens when bees regurgitate [repeatedly] nectar), and even Vegemite. Where I differ from those who call themselves ‘vegetarians’, even the lacto-ovo variety, is that I also eat meat.

        I suppose the Inuit, out of the huckleberry season, were essentially carnivores, and buffalo hunters seemed to make do without much in the vegetable kingdom if historical accounts are accurate, but how many true ‘carnivores’ have you ever met or read about? ‘I’m a Vegetarian’ is arrogant nonsense – we are all vegetarians and also carnivores when we can afford it and if we aren’t too intellectually challenged.

        Just a note: “Birds too are often secret omnivores” – this only works if you don’t consider insects animals. Pretty much anything you would call a bird (as opposed to a hawk, owl, some ducks, etc.) requires insects or crustaceans to survive. Finches, parrots, hummingbirds, honeyeaters, and many others also eat nectar, seeds, fruit etc., but they all need insects too, especially when raising young. Even House Sparrows, the closest I can think of to a vegetarian bird, feed insects to their young.

        Cheers,

        Dave

        • Dave ==> Birds (almost all — even seed eaters) will peck and eat bits of dead animal, especially the fat. . . . stake out a good road kill on a lonely road and watch who shows up for the feast. My sons put out wild game fat for the birds every winter.

          The birds will take the meaty parts as well, until the offering is cleaned out.

          My favorite breakfast in Oz was four slices of wheat or rye toast, buttered, with Vegemite smeared over the top, along with Peppermint Herbal tea.

  7. Another misconception is that crops give a higher yield per acre than meat animals and therefore a non-meat diet will free up farmland. What they miss is that crops use the higher quality land and grass for grazing uses the lower quality land. Grass grows just fine on the lower quality land, crops don’t. Try growing crops on your average grassland and you’ll see your yields go down.

    Try going organic as well, and watch your yields drop even further. There was a paper out not that long ago which analysed organic efficiency and found that organic farming was bad for the environment. (Sorry no link but I could find it if asked).

    Modern farming methods are stunningly efficient compared with times past. The 20th century saw most crops’ production double without using any more land. Environmentalists are very happy, but Greens hate it. Just like they hate everything that actually works and helps to make people’s lives better.

    • that so called study that said organic was bad for the environment was BY the ag che cos pets, did you know that?
      it may produce less but the chemicals missing alone makes it better for the environment.

      • Wut? Organic farms use “chemicals” too, sometimes far more damaging than the ones useful farms use – native sulfur and sulfates, mineral and petroleum oils as well as paraffin (oh the irony), and ROTENONE.

    • Mike Jonas
      I remember once reading a study that suggested that the less than endearing behavior of the stereotypical teenager was the result of evolution of tribal humans. The hypothesis was that tribal groups that survived by hunting and gathering, might find themselves pressed to get enough to eat in drought years. If what little food that could be obtained was shared equally with members of the tribe, they might all starve. On the other hand, it was less painful to drive out the obnoxious, demanding and ungrateful teenagers. So, as the hypothesis goes, teenager behavior developed as a way to preserve the adults and children in a tribe when things got difficult.

      Maybe, there is a recessive gene in humans that is triggered by high population densities. It causes certain individuals to be critical of the status quo, and to offer up ‘solutions’ that will result in reducing the population. Certainly, much of the behavior of Greens is self destructive, if implemented.

  8. People taking Warfarin (blood thinner) also known as Coumadin cannot eat SOY and cannot eat virtually any greens because they destroy its effect. The people making these stupid demands do not bother to see what harm could be done by the replacement items…probably don’t care because only older people are on blood thinners.

    • Some of us suffer chronic anaemia that is only alleviated by consuming meat, as it supplies the most readily absorbed form of dietary iron. Plant iron sources and iron supplements are difficult to absorb at the best of times and nearly impossible in the presence of dietary calcium (along with a while raft of other necessary dietary elements) whereas heme iron has no such limitations.

    • No, that is not true at all. You can eat lots of greens, in fact most, on Warfarin. The only ones its important to avoid are spinach, kale, root greens such as collard or turnip greens. Brussel sprouts and broccoli should me eaten carefully, regularly, and in moderation. There is no reason to avoid cauliflower, lettuce, cabbages of all kinds, green beans…. etc. I don’t think there is any reason to avoid tofu or miso.

      The variable is vitamin k content. The USDA publishes lists of foods sorted by ingredient. If you get the k one, just avoid the top 5 or 10 k containing foods, and eat the rest without worrying.

      You do not want to avoid k on warfarin. What you want is a fairly high, regular intake of it. This way random fluctuations in the diet will be low percentage increases or decreases.

      You get all kinds of crazy nonsense talked about warfarin. Bananas, for instance. No reason to avoid them. Just get the USDA list and try to make sure your weekly intake of k is constant. And enjoy the permitted greens, which will be almost all of them.

      • Thanks for those tips, we were aware of the lists broken down by tiers, but taking a 25 page list into a restaurant or a grocery store and reading all the ingredients on every item became too much of a chore for her, so after consulting with the heart doctor, Soy and many greens were simply eliminated or allowed only occasionally. The fluctuations in the thinness number were too large to offset eating many of those items even in moderation. Her numbers are right in the middle of the desired range now.

        We are always open to good advice that could restore some of her favorites that she has had to give up, so we will revisit those lists using your suggestions. She says that bananas are great with peanut butter.

  9. It would be interesting to put @GretaThunberg and these IPCC authors on the diet Swedes had in a time when they lived of “sustainable” farming, where the farm barely could carry them through the winter, and only supported a few cows, sheep, a pig and maybe a horse.

    Not only that, but here where we have a growing season of 5 months, the plant material farm animals can eat, but is completely indigestible to human, is refined to and stored as meat that help us make it through the winter.

    The grass grown for dairy and cattle farming in large parts of the Northern Hemisphere are grown on marginal land and in cold climate zones where you cannot exchange it for other crops that will compensate the loss of protein and fat needed by the population.

    Do these people really suggest we should start large scale transportation of food from other parts of the world to compensate the loss from dairy and meat farming? How much fossil fuels would that need? The CO2 from transport would probably outweigh the saving.

    Do they also suggest that we move food from other parts of the world away from regions that already need it to regions of the world which now are self sustained?

    What they essentially say is that people on the colder regions of the Northern hemisphere should go away!

    • Remembe OC who thought that it was white colonialist ideology that made Puerto Ricans in New York grow cauliflower rather than yuca.

      That illustrates the degree of understanding of cropping and climate within the left.

    • They also don’t understand that grass & legumes eaten by cows are an annual crop. What is not eaten by cows, & decomposed in their stomachs will die & either rot, or be consumed by termites. Either way the same CO2 will be released.

      Cows are the ultimate recycling machine, They eat the grass & release the CO2 the new crop of grass needs to grow, [to be eaten by cows].

  10. “My family and I ascribe to a diet that already calls for eating meat sparingly”

    So how about calling for a sensible poll?

    Please raise your hands if you would be willing to eat meat sparingly.

    • I eat, and will continue to eat, all the meat I want to. And if the Eco-fascsists manage to legislate away my right to do so, I’ll just have to try “solylent green.”

    • Loydo ==> The underlying study was about replacing red meat or all meat in American diets — thus the two poll questions. Decisions about how much of what to eat are the privilege of those lucky enough to be born in relatively wealthy countries.

    • Nope first because the claim is false. Second it hurts farmers and the economy which are real people actually working hard unlike the the inner city green trash promoting this junk.

    • My wife is African. If you told her to not eat meat she would slap you up side the head. I suggest you don’t do that to meat eaters and don’t get between her and a lump of beef/lamb/goat/chook/pig etc etc at dinner time…!

    • I’ll eat whatever I damn well please. It’s not anybody else’s business.

      None of this self-depravation really makes a difference anyway. Not to the planet. Certainly not to activists – they’ll just look for something else to take away tomorrow.

    • I eat meat sparingly and probably for similar reasons as Mr. Hansen. More than a little is very heavy on my stomach while going for a long stretch without is neither healthy nor tasty. I also tune it seasonally; in (long, cold) winter I eat more meat, in summer much less.

  11. Economists, biologists, nutritionists, and environmentalists have all undertaken studies to find out what happens if the entire planet went Vegan or Vegitarian and there is no consistent answer just a series of very biased answers depending how you model it.

    The main agricultural issues are grazing land is very often unsuitable for growing crops and secondly you have a continual nutrient extraction on the land (no animal manure and like to put nutrient back into the soil). When you start talking about crop rotations, leaving land fallow etc like they did in the middle ages it gets very hard to model because you need real data.

    Economists are probably the most consistent answer of NO because there are few models that don’t have prices spiralling out of control. The main reason for the spiral is simply the volume and storage you are talking about you don’t have the density advantage of meat.

    • “The main reason for the spiral is simply the volume and storage you are talking about you don’t have the density advantage of meat.”

      At least these morons are consistent. They also prefer batteries to gasoline because of the lower energy density. Anything to make it more expensive for the common man and to help reduce the world’s population.

  12. No hands up I am sorry (not) to say! This ridiculous old chestnut has been kicked around the academic (non-technical/scientific) staff rooms for years, with the usual plethora of “studies suggest” or worse still, “studies show”, or even worse, “studies have proven”, etc! How much land globully would need to put under the plough just to feed the current population? Oh the deep rooted OCD complexes driving the experts & their hangers on to dictate to others how to live their lives! The last paper I read on this came from some southern English “university” not from a science department but a Sociology department or some such, around 15 years ago! Soylent Green anyone?

    PS, hasn’t Brazil achieved great farming strides & meat & in particular beef production with far less “damage” to the rainforests than was dictated from on green high, would definitely happen, but didn’t?

    • Alan the Brit

      Being that NASA reliably informs us that global greening over 35 years of satellite observations, thanks to increased atmospheric CO2, is equivalent to two continents the size of mainland USA, It seems we can’t chop the stuff down nearly as quickly as it grows.

    • “You’ll be healthy in the short term, but such a diet havocs your health in the long term.”

      The same can be said for diets heavy in meat consumption due to other factors. Vitamin supplements render your point irrelevant.

      • Do you have valid research that shows this? There is very good evidence that vegan diets result in pernicious anemia. What condition does meat cause (something with real evidence)?

      • Not true, as there are different examples of nations thriving on a animal-only diet, being the Inuit as the most well known example.
        Apart from that; Already in 1928 Vilhjalmur Stefansson showed the world it is possible, by living a year in a hospital, on a meat and fish only diet. This effort is published in different scientific research articles.

      • Vitamin supplements are not processed well by the body. Almost all of it is evacuated through the body in the urine. The only effective way to get the nutrients you need is by food. The body knows the difference between natural vitamins and synthesized vitamins.

      • There is absolutely no science in existence that shows a diet heavy in meat is harmful BECAUSE OF THE MEAT. Every single study is nothing more than a statistical data-grind milled from “food questionnaires” which are well known to be wildly inaccurate. Additonally, every single “heavy meat consumption” group in these self-reportings were ALSO eating unlimited sugar, starches, and processed foods amounting to at LEAST 150 grams of carbs daily. That is in NO way, shape or form a low-carb or ketogenic diet. Said studies also are worthless due to bias confounders like smoking, drinking, environmental stress, etc. due to lower socioeconomic status than the white, wealthy, educated-class “health freaks” to whom they were compared. The best we know was the self-experiment of Vilhajlmur Steffanson and another man who lived with the Inuit and ate their diet of seals and fish for an extended period, then allowed themselves to be sequestered in a metabolic ward while they continued carnivore and doctors weighed and measured, this in the 1920’s. They were healthier by every measure than the general population, and died at very ripe old ages for the time. READ. Do not accept “arguments from authority,” they are just plain WRONG.

        • The Vilhajlmur Steffanson experiment involved foods with low omega6/omega 3 ratios (seal/fish) in a much more physically active culture. There’s no way, IMO, a heavy red meat, high omega6/omega 3 ratio, diet is healthy in a sedentary population. 150 grams of carbs daily is nothing; a third of a lb.

          • There’s no such thing as a one-size-fits-all diet for every member of the world population at all times. I’m not claiming this is a “feed-the-world” diet, because frankly my concern is feeding myself. Most of us who do keto or carnivore go out of our way and pay exorbitant prices to source 100% grass-fed beef, organ meats, pastured pork and chicken, and wild-caught fatty fish which are correctly Omega 6/3 balanced. And most of us are definitely not sedentary. In fact, you find you want to move a lot more naturally eating this way. 150 gm. carbs is a HUGE amount by our standards; we keep it below 20! You would be absolutely blown away by the sheer numbers of formerly gravely ill people who’ve cured–CURED! their Type 2 diabetes, morbid obesity, hypertension, joint inflammation, leaky gut and autoimmune problems eating this way.

            One of the greatest things about it is because animal products are very nutrient-dense, you find yourself eating vanishingly less food in toto over the course of 24 hours, and with no hunger at all. Carbs=high blood glucose=insulin release=stored fat & hunger.

            Not saying everyone needs to try it, but I AM increasingly convinced from personal experience that it is biologically impossible to BE “healthy” on the “healthy eating” plant-based regimens and extreme forced exercise we’ve been sold for 40 years.

          • icisil
            So is the basic problem one of diet, or physical lifestyle? The plains Indian probably survived principally on red meat in the Wintertime.

      • BK started grilling Veggie Burgers, presumably on the same grill as the Beef Burgers. Couldn’t imagine them going to the expense of installing a second griller.

    • Try a falafel – the original veggie burger, they taste great, and people have been eating them for generations with no ill-effect (assuming you use chickpeas and not some toxic bean and you aren’t allergic etc.).

  13. Episodically German supermarkets bring the topic of worm proteins in their do-gooders ads. However this is not (yet?) a widely available mainstream product.

    In Switzerland the omnipresent COOP supermarket chain had even specialized refrigerated shelves with information pamphlets for the purpose. However they remained empty and soon vanished.

    A new business is n the rise and as with all things green, zealots will lobby all their might to make it a legally binding consumer obligation.

    Just like palm oil. It was devastating for the planet until it became part of biodiesel fuel. Then all of a sudden, palm oil industry turned green and clean.

    Who owns the majority of “green palm oil” plantations is a is a very inconvenient question for the Rain Forest Alliance. Reason why no one takes the risk to ask.

    • yes this no redmeat is the beginning of the sloooow push for introducing more bugs in the food supply
      first get people away from meat then introduce the bugmeats
      my chooks eat the bugs I eat the chook;-)
      much tastier and safer.

  14. We have masses of people, mostly one fears women with liberal arts degrees, writing reams of stuff about evidence free diet and health recommendations. They don’t know what science is, and think you can get to effective programs without knowing anything other than vague feelings or popular press stories. This is only the latest. Go into any bookshop and you will find whole sections full of the incompatible extreme recommendtions that come out of this.

    The most notable exponent is Gwyneth Paltrow. The most notable example of the nonsense is the concept of ‘detox’. You are supposed to go on some agoinizing diet like taking nothing but grapefruit or carrot juice for days. Then when you feel terrible, it is be expected because this is the toxins coming out. No its not, its because eating nothing but grapefruit juice is really, really bad for you, and the longer you do it, the worse you will feel.

    I once got into very hot water by asking, at a gathering where detox was being warmly endorsed by a group of ladies, what exactly were these toxins? Could anyone give me an example of one, and had anyone measured how much of it was being excreted during the detox diet?

    Answer came there none, but one could feel the circle turning its intellectual back in short order.

    The decisive argument against total veganism is that we could not have evolved eating such a diet, because before 1900 had we tried it, we and our children would have died of B12 deficiency. It only became possible to live on a true vegan diet when B12 supplements became available.

    We do synthesize B12 in the gut, like other animals, but the difference is that we do so after the point in the digestive process where it can be absorbed. So despite the denial that is common in vegan advocates, its real simple. Either take supplements or get anaemic. The denial is common. Read ‘How not to Die’, which is a concealed advocacy of extreme veganism. Nowhere is it clearly stated that the only way not to die on a vegan diet is religiously to take B12 supplements. Its a sort of denial.

    Like the author of the post I think moderate amounts of meat, fish and eggs in the diet, and as an accompaniment rather than main dish, are preferable to a diet mainly based on animal sourced foods. And the evidence does suggest increasing our intake of fruit and vegetables at the expense of meat has real health benefits. I am much more skeptical about the whole wheat mania, but that is another story.

    But the evidence for pure veganism is about zero.

    • michel

      Personally I think every ‘dietitian’ has it 100% wrong. Or almost.

      Humans have evolved over tens of thousands of years to eat both meat and vegetation, but not together.

      And when one stops to think about it, the concept isn’t unreasonable.

      Ancient tribes survived for generations foraging for vegetables, nuts, berries etc. However, if they killed an animal large enough for the tribe to eat they would be unlikely to mix their boring daily fare with an infrequent meat meal. They would be likely to feast on exclusively meat for a day, perhaps two, before returning to foraging.

      The concept of ‘meat and two veg’ probably harks back to a period when meat became part of our staple diet but was too expensive to eat exclusively and needed something extra to supplement it.

      • that almost sounds like that other Fad,,food combining
        cant eat spuds with meat cos the gut cant digest both
        whatta crock
        by the time you chew it the digestive enzymes are working
        and in the stomach n gut its all broken down regardless into aminoacids the body then recombines to what it needs at the time
        the other furphy re milk leaching your calcium?(forks over knives film?)
        well for a VERY short period the body does draw its own calcium in but then? its returend with extra from the milk.

        • ozspeaksup

          According to credible research, if you eat carbs, like potatoes, and meat at the same time, the potatoes get used for instant energy and the protein, which takes longer to digest, is laid down as fat.

          So people going in for a ‘healthy’ meat and two veg meal are just storing up fat. Unless of course they are working it off; the problem is, of course, fewer people are active these days so the traditional diet doesn’t work.

          The solution for the more sedentary amongst us is, counterintuitively, to eat more protein like meat, to the exclusion of all sugar generating foods like pasta, so our stomach feels full while it takes time to digest the protein.

          And if you think it’s bunk, I lost 14 pounds in 5 days by doing just that.

  15. I’m not sure how land usage is supposed to go down when you’ll just have to use that land used by livestock to grow replacement crops. Chances are, you’d actually need more land to cover the increased demand as a result of nutrional requirement replacement. And bad weather, does not affect livestock anywhere near as much as it does for crops (cows always look sad anyway) . I can’t seem to remember the last time we had a cow famine because the winter was too wet and cold.

    Meat, is also not the only thing we use livestock for. Fertilizer, pretty important when growing crops. Studies like this produce more bullshit than anything any cow could.

    • We also use animals for feathers, fur, wool, leather, hide and hoof, as well as meat, milk and eggs. The chicken is one of humanity’s greatest achievements in using nature to our benefit.

      Humans owe our big brains to animal fat, acquired by stone tools.

      The CACA religion goes way beyond fish on Friday.

    • Cattle eat forage from land that is no good for cultivating anything from scrub; they fertilize it and trample it to keep the soil from being blown away. This idea that they are bad for the environment is, quite frankly, nuts. We can’t grow vegetables or grain on scrub land. Cattle do just fine – and help restore prairies. I can’t help but think that a lot of people are developing alzheimer’s because they’ve been brainwashed into thinking organ meats and meats in general are bad for health when they’re not. These people would have us die from malnutrition. Meat is the most concentrated source of nutrients around and we need the fat to store the fat soluble vitamins in plants foods. The left is unbalanced and unhinged when it comes to diet. These “measures” won’t save us from anything.

  16. What did the hot dog say when he crossed the finish line? I’m the wiener!

    Why did the cookie visit the doctor? He felt crummy.

    Did you hear about the new restaurant that opened up in India? It’s a New Delhicatessen.

    • Soy isn’t at all necessary to a low- or no-meat diet. We do not eat much meat and never eat soy except in fermented form, and then not much of it.

      You’d eat lots of other pulses, lentils, cannellini, pinto, kidney beans. Rice, buckwheat, obviously potatoes both sweet and ordinary, and all kinds of vegetables. Wheat and corn and other grains. In fact, eating soy beans in their natural form is probably a very bad idea – no cultures which have a long history of soy in the diet eat them as the beans or as an ingredient in the form of flour. They are very careful to ferment them, as in miso, or to process them heavily, as in tofu.

      The 7th Day Adventists have a mainly vegetable based diet and seem to do fine.

      I do think that we have evolved to eat a diet with at least some animal foods in it. But the way we raise and eat especially beef is probably not optimal. Well, chickens too, even worse. We would probably be a lot better off and a lot less obese if we ate more fruit and vegetables, less meats, and no convenience foods.

      And if we dropped the whole wheat mania. People do not realize that modern wheat is nothing like what our ancestors cultivated, its a highly bred recent product, bred for ease of growth and without nutrition or digestibility in whole grain form as the objective. Its best eaten refined with a highish extraction rate (85% or so) if you can find it, which is hard.

      Otherwise the older varieties are far more digestible. Spelt or Kamut for instance. Rye is also excellent. No, they do not make that pure white high rising bread, that you can put through the factory bread process and get sliced loaves out with minimal rise time. But they are far more digestible.

      • The only result of an all vegetable diet will be a massive increase in diabetes and malnutrition. You would essentially impose 3rd world health issues on now largely healthy populations.

        Humans do not have the guts to digest only vegetables. If we did we’d have the large guts of primates, and we would spend significantly more time of the day eating rather than develop the world around us.

        • So, you don’t even know that humans are primates? You probably should keep your fingers away from the keyboard because typing makes you look very ignorant.

          • Albert,
            That was very rude and uncalled for. Yes, humans are primates. But, we don’t have the large guts of “other” primates. He left out the word “other’.

          • Albert

            Chimpanzees are primates are they not?

            They eat meat in the form of monkeys do they not?

            Step away from the keyboard ignoramus!

      • no cultures which have a long history of soy in the diet eat them as the beans or as an ingredient in the form of flour. They are very careful to ferment them, as in miso, or to process them heavily, as in tofu.”

        Edamame (raw or blanched) is very popular in Japan/China.

        • Icisil, tofu is popular in Indonesia. I recommend, however, looking at the graphic pictures in Asian medical texts of the results of too much soy. You need a strong stomach.
          The popularity of any diet in any culture does not necessarily make it safe.

          • Japanese have the longest life expectancy, and edamame and tofu are regular parts of their diet, so I’m not getting your point.

    • That’s actually a good allergy to have; avoiding soy containing foods will improve his diet by a great deal.

      Just have him eat plenty of fat and meat. Ignore the hucksters trying to pass off crap as “food.”

    • Michel ==> Much of the vegetarianism movement comes as a blowback against the practices in many western cultures of predominate meat diets — especially in Winter when vegetable foods were not available. On the American frontier (west of the Appalachians ) it was quite common to eat meat and grains (grits/corn meal) almost exclusively for months — children would get “spring fever” — when their bodies stores of vitamin C were depleted — some would die — scurvy it was called among sailors. Other vitamin deficiencies would develop from inadequate diet as well — Vit D especially — other only discovered fairly recently like Vit B12 and Vit B3.

      Modern parents make grave errors fooling around with their kids diets without a solid understanding of human physiology.

  17. What do you get when you take Viagra with beans? A stiff wind.

    Waiter:And how did you find your steak,sir?
    Diner: Well,I just pushed aside a pea and there it was…

  18. There will not be climate wars. There will be meat wars. They will only end when the meat eaters eat all the vegetarians.

  19. Thank you, I notice there were no hands up.

    Funny you did not notice no hand were up for the first two questions either.

    • Greg ==> You may be right — I thought I saw one hesitant hand in the back row from a wanna-be vegetarian.

    • I had my hand ready to go up for “Tell them all to mind their own frickin business and keep their grubby paws and nosy nose out of my dang kitchen, thank you very much!”
      But that one was not asked.

  20. Kip,
    Scientific Reports is not a section of Nature. It is a completely different journal that is
    owned by the same publishing conglomerate. It is worth noting that there are essentially
    no standards for getting published in Scientific Reports provided you have the money to
    pay the open access publishing fees. It recently published an article claiming that homeopathy
    worked on rats for example. Getting worked up about or even reading something published there
    is a waste of time.

    • Izaak ==> Thanks for the clarification — the Scientific Reports web site has the NatureResearch banner across the bottom of the page — and the ‘bread crumbs” at the top of the page read “nature > scientific reports > articles”.

  21. Hey come on get with the program! I am proud to say I am doing my bit to reduce that pesky CO2 problem.
    Having studied the causes of CO2, I have concluded we must reduce the purveyors of CO2. With that in mind, things like cattle, chickens, pigs those sort of walk about CO2 producers, must be eaten to keep the CO2 in check.
    So here is the new tee shirt slogan. “Reduce CO2 Eat beef Save the planet”
    NB other meats are also available. 🙂

    • They also produce methane.

      Equids and bovids are still used for transportation and traction in much of the world, but have been largely replaced the engines burning fossil fuels.

  22. Could someone tell the ignoramus that the word is:
    predominantly

    Not:
    predominately

    Another word that is misused is :
    Pry
    when what is meant is:
    Prise

    • John ==> The English language is not as strictly controlled as Climate Science. In English, there are alternate spellings and alternate meanings of words, and usages differ from area to area, country to country, and time to time.

      On this particular word, from The Grammarist:

      “Predominately means for the main part, mostly. Predominately is the adjective form of the word predominate. It is derived from the Medieval Latin predominatus. Predominantly and predominately are interchangeable, they both mean for the main part, mostly. The Oxford English Dictionary accepts both spellings, as both words date back to the mid-1500s. However, many scholars prefer the word predominantly. The word predominantly is used nearly twenty times as often as the word predominately, according to Google’s Ngram Viewer.”

  23. This problem has already been solved.

    Two birds with one stone, too many people and not enough protein: Soylent Green.

    It even has “Green” in the name. Must be good for the earth.

  24. One inconvenient fact if all farm animals are eliminated will be their replacement by the expansion of wild animals, deer, bison, buffalo’s and antelopes, all of which are ruminants and produce methane as well as eating crops.
    Presumably as vegans won’t have anything to do with killing them so will have to fence off all the crop areas.
    Then if their populations get too high there will be a mass die-off as happened in the Kaibab plateau where the deer population exploded following a ban on deer hunting and trashed the vegetation and then starved. The deer population had risen from 4,000 to an estimated 100,000 before the population crash.
    Alternatively they will no doubt propose introducing predators to kill off the population surplus.
    So it is OK for predators to kill animals but not humans.

    On a different topic but relating to methane from cattle, the BBC website has an article about devices for cattle that convert methane from the cattle into CO2.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0714bzs

    • StephenP

      vegans are, like AGW advocates, savages who care for nothing but their own selfish existence.

    • RE: “Presumably as vegans won’t have anything to do with killing them so will have to fence off all the crop areas.’

      StephenP,
      A bull American buffalo will go though nearly any ‘conventional’ woven wire or board fence to get to new graze… or fertile females. Conventional fences that hold cattle and horses are entirely inadequate for buffalo.

  25. Aside from the vitamin question most vegetables, including beans and pulses, are deficient on sulphur amino acids, methionine and cysteine, worsening the nutrition imbalance of purely vegan diets.

  26. No hands up.
    Never, ever I will let a vegetarian dictate that I can not eat meat. You do not see me forcing them to eat meat.
    If they wish to go without meat. Great. More meat for me. My body needs it to survive. Like we did for two million years.

  27. This reminds me of the time in the early 2000’s when I went to a scientific meeting in Beijing with a polish friend who is a vegan (I’m not, emphatically). He had been to Beijing several times during the communist era, but never since, and was speaking lyrically about all the fine vegetarian food in Beijing and was looking forward to eating it again.

    He was cruelly disappointed. In the meantime the incomes in Beijing had risen quite a lot, and the people were definitely not content to eat vegetarian food any longer. There wasn’t a single vegetarian restaurant farther than the eye could reach, and consumption of Beijing duck had risen to a point where China was actually having to import frozen ducks from the EU!

  28. Remembe OC who thought that it was white colonialist ideology that made Puerto Ricans in New York grow cauliflower rather than yuca.

    That illustrates the degree of understanding of cropping and climate within the left.

    • tty ==> I’ve heard the meme, but don’t understand the story. How do you make a Puerto Rican in NY grow cauliflower?

      Yuca, Manihot esculenta, is a staple crop in tropical countries — “Growing cassava yuca successfully relies upon tropical climates and at least eight months of warm weather.”

      One can not grow yuca in New York — the growing season is too short — there are even parts of tropical Dominican Republic (high altitude) where one can not grow yuca.

    • Indeed. And since Puerto Ricans in general aren’t idiots like OC, they didn’t even try, they grew cauliflowers and other veggies which do grow in New York’s climate. OC on the other hand opined:

      “when someone says that it’s ‘too hard’ to do a green space that grows Yucca instead of, I don’t know, cauliflower or something — what you’re doing is you’re taking a colonial approach to environmentalism,”

      https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ocasio-cortez-growing-cauliflower-colonial

      So now you know, matching your crops to the prevailing climate is a “colonial approach”.

      This puts a new meaning to the old english phrase “stupid as a cauliflower”.

  29. What, another article telling us that animal farming is bad .
    Meat feeds millions of people all over the world and milk feeds millions more .
    Having been brought up on a farm and I have farmed all my life ‘
    I was born on a sheep farm that was cut out of native bush by my grandfather in the very early 1900s .
    This was hilly and was never cultivated except for a large vegetable garden .
    The lambs were sold off the hill for lowland farmers to finish for the butchers and the meat works for export ,
    first mainly to the UK but markets are now all around the world.
    Cattle were run and at first they were English shorthorns and when the 1930s depression took hold many farmers rounded up the cows and hand milked them in very crude sheds and separated the cream off to send away for butter making for export to have a little cash to purchase essentials.
    The skim milk was fed to the calves usually in a wooden trough.
    All over the hills of New Zealand this happened and as wool and lamb prices recovered the cows were were put back on the hills to control pasture and fern .
    Millions of tonnes of meat and wool is still produced on hills that are far to steep to cultivate and the high quality food is still in demand .
    The latest UN report is very careful to tell policy makers and politicians that food security has to be the major factor.
    7 billion people forecast to increase to 9 billion and that means a lot more food has to be grown and processed.
    Stupid people with no idea how food is produced would like to stop all animal farming because of the perceived risk of methane increasing the temperature .
    Methane from farmed livestock is a non problem dreamed up by anti meat and milk zealots.
    Cows and sheep consume grass and other forage and efficiently convert it into high quality food .
    Do away with animals and dead material builds up and then fires start and destroy forests and homes .With proper farm grazing management this can never happen .
    Grazed pastures are very good sinks of soil carbon as the livestock leave behind digested grass that earth worms and dung beetles take down into the soil .
    I have seen bulldozed red clay tracks turn into lush pasture with a good covering of black top soil in a few years .
    There is nothing better than a grass fed scotch fillet brazed till medium rare with a little blue cheese sauce. Graham

    • For some reason that brought back a memory of a pea shooter machine gun I made when I was a kid. Maybe I used soybeans.

      • Better to use soybeans for BBs than for food; soy is actually not a very healthy thing to eat. It has been marketed as such, of course, and very successfully. Soy used to be used primarily to set nitrogen in the soil between planting crops. Finding “uses” that allowed it to be sold as “food” was therefore profitable, hence the “campaign” to tout its supposed “healthiness.”

  30. In the UK now we are having commercials for meat free burgers being eaten by vampires with the catch line even i’m a bit veggie. they are pushing the non-meat narrative very hard indeed.

    • That’s how the elites want us – intellectually impaired, stunted, malnourished, and defenseless.

      That, plus their unending greed at profiting from crap nobody would buy voluntarily without some smiley-faced-fascist government mandate to consume said crap to “save us” from the latest imaginary hobgoblin.

      I hear Gore has a big “Beyond Meat” stake – big reason NOT to ever eat it!

  31. Humans can’t stay healthy on a vegan diet over the long term, you can cause serious permanent damage including brain damage. It seems that vegans hit a wall after about two to five years, depending on how healthy they are when they start. There are plenty of ex vegan horror story testimonies on YouTube. Vegan supplements don’t seem to work either, you need your supplements to be animal based.
    On the other hand there are plenty of testimonies of people who thrive in the long term on plant free diets.

  32. Can anyone answer me a question, I have puzzled over for a while?
    Why do vegans and vegetarians worry so much about me and my eating habits?
    Why are these concerned people so concerned about someone such as me and many others who eat meat? They don’t know me and never will, why are they so worried?
    Their obvious good health and longevity which they continually claim, is evidence enough, to convey their much talked about, diet benefits…isn’t it?
    When something is better (under the Darwin principle) it will always evolve and win the future.
    So relax vegans and veg supporters, you don”t have to constantly bang your puritanical, don’t eat meat drum. If you are correct, you will be the survivors and the rest of us will have died out.
    Isn’t that sufficient karma, for you?

    • Rod Evans ==> I think it is a function of “The Bearer of the Secret” syndrome. Folks who think they have found the “secret of a healthy life” feel obsessed with sharing it and/or forcing it down other peoples throats. Being a possessor of the secret makes them feel “oh so special” — this applies in many fields of human endeavor.

    • A couple of decades ago I spent time on AOL’s “Pet Care Forums\Animal Rights-Animal Welfare”.
      There back then their was a sharp difference between a “Vegan” and the various types of “Vegetarians”.
      (Types of Vegetarians? Some would eat eggs, some would drink milk and eat cheese, some would eat fish, take animal-based supplements, etc., and still be considered a “Vegetarian”.)
      The Vegetarians, generally speaking, would try to persuade people to go that route.
      But the “Vegans”! They were the ones that would outlaw eating meat, animal-based supplements and medicines, owning pets, products tested on animals (They didn’t like it when I pointed out that their CRT monitors were tested on animals for radiation exposure.), etc.
      Sounds like the “Vegan” mentality rules today’s CO2aphopes.

  33. The people who want an all-veg, all-plant diet inflicted on the human population have no idea where their food comes from, period. They get everything at The Store. Their ignorance of the volume needed to feed an entire global population nothing but plant matter is astounding, never mind their ignorance of real nutrition.

    • Sara ==> Back in the day, when I was young and strong, and had three small children, my wife and I raised 80% or better of our own food (we couldn’t raise wheat on our small bit of land, so had to purchase that). Huge family garden provided all the veggies for the season, preserved for winter as well — the kids eat many of the vegetables as they picked in the garden (saved a lot of cooking effort!) We had chickens for meat and eggs — allowed to range in the woods during the day — dairy goats for milk and a lamb purchased each spring (average cost US $ 10), raised up on the extra goat milk and alfalfa hay (traded from a local farmer in exchange for labor in the haying season), slaughtered in the Fall.

      All my kids (adults now) are taller and healthier than my wife and I as a result. A lovely way to raise children.

      • Ditto. When I was a little girl, we had a five acre garden, and the three of us kids would go plant the rows after Pop ran the cultivator. We also raised our own chickens for the freezer. Milk was whole milk, not divided into non-fat and low-fat stuff, and ice cream was real ice cream, not this junk loaded with weird chemicals, and we were all healthy, active kids and not one of us was overweight or suffering from some weird gastric disorder.

        • Indeed. Sometimes, I want to take a rid on the Wayback Machine….

          I’ve raised radishes in pots because my cats like to chew on the leaves. Vet said it was okay to let them. They get something out of it, and I get firecracker radishes.

      • Kip well said .
        I to was raised with 4 other brothers and sister and we had a large vegetable garden and orchard .
        Every second week father would kill a sheep and mother would store it in a small fridge freezer and it would last the two weeks
        Hens provided eggs and chicken and a draft horse was harnessed to a single furrow plow to plant a large bag of seed potatoes .
        Milk and cream was plentiful as we milked a small herd of cows around 25 to supply cream in cans to a butter factory that is now merged into Fonterra .{ 4th largest dairy company in the world }
        Pigs were kept to feed on the skim milk and a small flock of sheep were run and also some Angus cows with calves to sell as weaners.
        The youngest of us has turned 71 and we are still all fit and healthy .
        The anti milk and meat people can go vegan but tell the truth .
        A varied diet including milk and meat is healthy and does not need supplements.
        Graham

  34. In our household we tend to eat mostly poultry. It is inexpensive, low fat, and tasty. I never get why all these studies decide they want to go straight from some all beef diet to all soybean diet and ignore how popular chicken and turkey are. Last I saw they are the most popular “meats” in America right now.

    • But then “low fat” is NOT healthy. Like most, you have been mislead in this respect.

      Not that there’s anything wrong with some poultry in your diet, but “fat reduction” is not a goal any human should have for their diet. Starch and sugar reduction, yes – but NOT fat reduction (unless you’re talking about “trans fats,” the rancid, VEGETABLE OIL based garbage found in most baked goods and processed foods).

      Saturated fat is GOOD for you – no matter how many stupid commercials you’ve been, pardon the pun, “saturated” with that paint saturated fat as something just short of the demon Satan.

      • Low fat is full of sugar. That’s the problem. However, in Aus, eggs are now ok, but eat less meat! Hummm…

        • Yes, since fat gives food good flavor, the “reduced fat” garbage tends to be liberally “enhanced” by adding lots of sugar. Another reason to avoid food proclaiming to be “low fat.”

    • It’s not saturated fat that raises cholesterol levels. It is simply eating food that does that. I’ve had tests before a meal and another one after a meal – just normal food, nothing special – and cholesterol always went up AFTER the meal. I quite worrying about it because of that.

      I love chicken, ham, beef, pheasant, turkey, bacon…. I’m getting carried away here. None of that is bad for you, nor is it expensive and there is no reason to tell anyone to avoid eating animal protein. It’s what gave us bigger brains than the other [apes]. 😛 (I hope no one gets annoyed with my reference to ‘apes’.)

      • Sara ==> There are beginning to be a lot of medical doubts that dietary fats or dietary cholesterol have any appreciable impact on blood cholesterol levels. Human bodies digest the dietary cholesterol and then manufacture the cholesterol they need later on.

        • Kip

          I posted his blog earlier but very worth while taking a trip along to Malcolm Kendrick’s site, kind of the WUWT for coronary health.

          Malcolm is a practising Doctor in the NHS but dead against statins on which he has amassed a huge amount of scientific data, enough to have written a couple of books.

          He’s on part 64 of his email newsletter ‘What causes heart disease.’

          He’s also all for consuming saturated fats, as he puts it, after tens of thousands of years of evolution, the human body is very well adapted to eating animal fat.

          https://drmalcolmkendrick.org

          • HotScot ==> I don’t promote (or dis-promote) any of the “popular medicine” people or their offered cures.

            I studied pre-Med in uni for a few years — and have my own views.

            I am aware of Kendrick and his viewpoint.

            Other readers might be interested and have to use their own critical thinking skills when approaching these not-quite-mainstream ideas.

        • Kip,

          This is consistent what I’ve read / been told. I have no source for it that I can find, but my understanding is that cholesterol is produced by the body to repair the ID of vessels / veins. (Like an asphalt paving patch.) Substances like processed sugars and the like cause damage to the interior of vessels/veins, and the cholesterol patches it over.

          I don’t know…seems logical to me. But again, I have no source nor personal knowledge of this.

          Personally, I use bourbon and cigars to keep my cholesterol down. Well, and to keep away cancers, viruses, unwanted weight gain, diabetes, etc, etc, etc… 🙂

          rip

      • Cholesterol levels are not even a health problem per se ANYWAY. That’s just another junk science myth they use to sell you “solutions” (i.e., statins) to the non-problem. All about the money, as usual.

        Inconvenient fact – 75% of people who die of heart attacks have so-called “normal” or so-called “low” cholesterol. So when my regular doc tells me my cholesterol is high next time I see him, I’ll hit him with that and tell him I’m glad to be in the LOW RISK group!

        Statins are a much bigger threat to your health than cholesterol will ever be.

  35. Roger Pielke on twitter:

    “This shows the ridiculousness of most climate policy discussions. Think about how you might change the eating habits of 320 million Americans. (I have no idea.) Then learn that if successful you reduce emissions by only 2 days of China’s 2019 emissions.”

  36. The meatless push is marketing as much as anything. Take a look at Beyond Meat, a corporation that produces mashed-up vegetable products that allegedly tastes like meat. Beyond Meat has a market cap of just over $9.1 Billion. Of course investors want people to switch from real meat to a plant-based substitute loaded with fat and sodium. Follow the money.

    • One of the best performing IPOs this year.

      Guess who is supposedly an original investor? First name starts with an A, last name starts with a G.

      I can just hear the pre IPO strategy conversation. “Ok guys, first we go public and then we have a massive campaign to link meatless to global warming. Brilliant. Fear is our friend. How can we not make money.”

      If I would have known that, I would have gotten in the first day.

  37. I encourage the intelligent readership of WUWT to do more research in to a Whole Food Plant Based diet. I say this as a climate realist who cares nothing about the ridiculous claims of saving the planet by reducing meat consumption. It’s not about the planet but about your health. Watch the movie Forks Over Knives to learn more. The inflammation present with a high dairy/ animal content diet is directly correlated to atherosclerosis, cancer and other lifestyle diseases. I’ve been eating a plant based diet since 2013 and I am a performance athlete running as much as 50 miles a week. At age 52 I am still able to run six minute miles have low cholesterol and a blood pressure of 110/70. All my bloodwork comes up spectacular. It’s the diet because before I stopped eating animal products and processed foods my numbers were all bad even though I was an athlete. Do it for your health not for the planet, the progressives, the animals or the alarmist climate fools. You’ll be glad you did. There’s more protein in every food than you need. Plants are no different. And you will feel great. And consider that the largest and most powerful hominids on earth eat only plants and they are doing great. You’ve been conditioned to think you need animal products, but try a pant based diet for a month and see if you don’t feel vastly better. Thanks for reading.

    • You probably could have achieved the same benefits just ditching the “processed” foods, plus anything your body is allergic to. Nothing wrong with veggies, they make the perfect companion to steak, chicken, burgers, duck, etc.

      The “whole food plant based diet” nazis are the same ones with malnourished, intellectually disadvantaged, stunted children.

      Thanks but no thanks.

    • Jeff B ==> Fortunately diet is still a matter of personal choice, at least in the United States.

      I certainly have no objections to those proselytizing plant based diets as long as they are honest about the downsides of such diets and are not promulgating misinformation. The authors of the study in question base their [absurd] recommended diets on satisfying the nutritional differences between diets with and without meats.

      My objections to this study and its promotion are the implied push force ( or pressure ) other people to give up meat for reasons that have nothing to do with human nutrition.

      In my own case, I eat so little meat already that I would not miss it — except for the nutritional deficiencies that might develop as a result — I’d have to take some care with that side of things.

    • Hey Jeff, put me down for a “pant” based diet. I like the sound of it, even if I have no idea what it is. I will try anything for a month.
      By the way, every year I have a health check and my blood results all come out in the middle of the healthy range. Blood pressure is always above the ideal but always falls to below ideal after a rest period, they call it white coat syndrome apparently.
      Retired now so not running marathons, but still chain saw active and just made a Kayak simply because I can.
      I eat anything that tastes good and so does my old mother aged 95, still living in her own home.
      What is the benefit of that pants diet again?

    • Hi Jeff B., – On a long term plant based diet our bodies can take in more of the plant compounds called poly-amines, which plants are rich in because they are crucial to them. Just taking poly-amines as supplements does not really change their levels in our bodies.

      Science has gone quite in depth beyond just carbohydrates, fats & proteins. What the poly-amines do is facilitate cellular housekeeping; (among other things) they influence our genes’ pattern(s) of methyl-ation (there is interplay of methyl chemical groups with genes).

      Auto-phagy (there are several versions) is basically how our cells get rid of big molecules cluttering up cellular dynamics & altered proteins. This process (auto-phagy) cleans up the cell interior & recycles what is possible.

      When you read about tactics such as “calorie restriction”&/or fasting as health enhancers their effect has been determined to be largely through augmenting auto-phagy. Reduced auto-phagy is seen in many age related illnesses & the young tend to have higher poly-amine levels than the elderly; but healthy 90 & up geriatrics have poly-amine levels like the young.

      The old joke about living on plants just seems like it’s longer is somewhat misleading. If your innate genetics didn’t give you a poor paradigm to live with then eating plants with their poly-amines do seem to favor a long life.

      As you are taxingly athletic the issue of muscle on a plant diet may interest you as well. Your performance is understandable because (see free full text available on-line) “Polyamines support myogenesis by facilitating myoblast migration “, by the team of Brewer, Feiler& Kahan.

    • “You’ve been conditioned to think you need…”

      There’s a certain irony in reading your own conditioning remarks.

  38. You have to wonder how many nutball ideas will arise before these low cabon warriors realize that building a fleet of super safe, super cheap molten salt small nuclear reactors wil not only save money,but save us from hearing about these idiotic ideas. Technology is the key.

  39. What happens to all the stuff fed to animals ? Ya know the byproducts of the human food chain , wheat hulls , distillers dried grains from the fructose industry , beet pulp and all the rest , landfill ?

  40. P.E.T.A.
    people enjoying tasty animals
    All gods creatures look best next to mashed potatoes and gravy!

  41. CFACT has an article related to this topic and how Al Gore and other Green elitists are positioning themselves to become Meat-substitute Billionaires…his company has already invested $200 Million in meat substitutes.

    Will Al Gore be the first fake meat billionaire?
    https://www.cfact.org/2019/08/21/will-al-gore-be-the-first-fake-meat-billionaire/

    https://2hiwrx1aljcd3ryc7x1vkkah-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/will-al-gore-be-the-first-fake-meat-billionaire.jpg

  42. Lots of people always think the way they do things is the best way, and always want to recommend their own way to others. You could sum up the entire thread above as this tendency.

    As far as diet goes, cooking for a family without meat takes a lot more time and effort to make varied and attractive and nutritious meals. I will spend double the time in the kitchen today because half of the biologists/ecologists coming to dinner are vegan, and there will be a meat dish for those who will eat it.

    • On the other hand, meat is much more of a hassle to cook with because it’s refrigeration life is so limited. To each his/her own.

      • Maybe later in life, Hitler respected animals more than he respected humans, which only points to the severity of Hitler’s evil. It says nothing about vegetarians being like Hitler. It suggests that Hitler was a fragmented psychopath — showing no empathy for human suffering, while showing empathy for animal suffering. How screwed up is THAT?

  43. These idiots also don’t take into consideration what various people can tolerate food wise. Here’s where I can never be a vegetarian or vegan:
    -Soy, the main protein replacement for meat. My body can’t tolerate soy at all, even a little bit will have heading to the bathroom for the next 4-6 hours until my body can shed every little bit I ingested. Basically my body reacts as if I’ve been poisoned.
    -All other beans. I can take beans if properly prepared but no more than a cup of prepared beans a day. If not properly prepared or I eat more than a cup I can’t stand to be around myself and can’t put anyone else through that experience. This is rather hard on me because I love various bean dishes. This is a problem that has gotten worse with age.
    -Gluten… I don’t always have a reaction or its so mild as to not be noticeable but at other times it can be quite noticeable. Symptoms generally are flushed cheeks, sinuses plug up and at times gas. This also has been slowly getting worse as I get older. I basically can’t even eat oats anymore (no oatmeal for breakfast or oatmeal cookies for me). Heck I’ve mostly cut beer out of my life due to adverse reaction I might have depending on what it was brewed with, just risk an occasional brew now.
    -Vegetables in moderation are fine but if I tried to eat enough to replace meat protein we would be back to not being able to stand myself let alone expect others accept my “aroma”.

    Basically I’m a meat and potatoes guy because anything else upsets me in one way or another.

  44. Good grief. The human body is a chemical factory. The types and numbers of gut flora in our digestive system, not to mention our own body’s ability to absorb various nutrients, likely makes us each unique (but with a strong genetic component?).

    A special or limited diet that works for one may be disastrous for someone else. Variety, at least at the beginning, is probably best for most, imo, followed by eliminating any foods that cause problems. Anything you do beyond that comes with a risk.

    I have zero problems with meat, and a slab of meat is far more nutritious than an equal caloric amount of cocoa mixed with sugar, both vegetable-based products. As far as the meat-is-murder crowd, most all animals in nature are murdered, whether by a larger predator, a lowly virus, or something inbetween. Nature doesn’t care, and I evolved as an omnivore. So do as you like, but don’t be presumptuous to think your way is best for me.

    Time for some barbeque – the meat kind.

    • Well, we ARE predators going way, way back, whether the veg promoters like it or not. There is hard archaeological evidence in Germany of a campsite where HOOMANS were butchering and prepping horse meat after hunting horses with double-pointed wood spears (javelins). This was dated at 400,000 years ago. There were also child-sized javelins, showing that children were being taught to hunt prey animals like horses and bovines with the adults.

      The javelins and other tools are in a German museum.

      So this bogus twaddle about ‘we’re plant eaters by nature’ is just that – TOTALLY BOGUS, MAN!!!!

  45. Keep the soy n low testosterone n moobs that go with it

    Never ever feed your boys soy or soy products

    US soy consumption increase just happens to correlate with the rise of the beta n male testosterone levels plummeting

  46. Epilogue:

    Thanks to all of you readers who contributed your “two cents worth” on the Meatless Diet Plan.

    I have grown asparagus — maybe reader Sara did too — it is a very limited-production crop and takes a lot of garden space for little (but delicious!) return. Worth it for some folks — we always has a liitle patch — and had shoots for a few weeks….kids liked it raw or cooked.

    Commercial asparagus growing, however, can be profitable even for smaller farms.

    I have picked pears in Oregon (both with and without permission . . .) Just to add to the oddity, I once owned a stone grist mill the had processed only buckwheat in its productive days.

    To top off this discussion, I suggest readers look at John P. A. Ioannidis’ latest paper:
    “The Challenge of Reforming Nutritional Epidemiologic Research

    Most nutritional epidemiology findings are simply false.

    Thanks for Reading!

    # # # # #

    • Yes, we did grow asparagus, and our chickens got to go through the tomato patch to get worms, caterpillars and bugs. Chickens are better pest killers than those commercial pesticides – and tasty, too!

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