Climate’s uncertainty principle

Reposted from Dr. Judith Curry’s Blog, Climate Etc.

by Garth Paltridge

On the costs and benefits of climate action.

Whether we should do anything now to limit our impact on future climate boils down to an assessment of a relevant cost-benefit ratio. That is, we need to put a dollar number to the cost of doing something now, a dollar number to the benefit thus obtained by the future generations, and a number to a thing called “discount for the future”—this last being the rate at which our concern for the welfare of future generations falls away as we look further and further ahead. Only the first of these numbers can be estimated with any degree of reliability. Suffice it to say, if the climate-change establishment were to have its way with its proposed conversion of the global usage of energy to a usage based solely on renewable energy, the costs of the conversion would be horrifically large. It is extraordinary that such costs can even be contemplated when the numbers for both the future benefit and the discount for the future are little more than abstract guesses.

Assessment of the future benefit is largely based on two types of numerical modelling. First, there are the vast computer models that attempt to forecast the future change in Earth’s climate when atmospheric carbon dioxide has increased as a consequence of the human activity of burning fossil fuel. Second, there are the computer-based economic models which attempt to calculate the economic and social impact of the forecasted change of climate. Reduction of that impact (by reducing the human input of carbon dioxide to the atmosphere) is the “benefit” in the cost-benefit calculations.

Taking the climate change calculations first, it should be emphasized that in order to be really useful, the forecast must necessarily be of the future distribution of climate about the world—on the scale of areas as small as individual nations and regions. Calculating only the global average of such things as the future temperature and rainfall is not useful. The economic models need input data relevant to individual nations, not just the world as a whole.

Which is a bit of a problem. The uncertainty associated with climate prediction derives basically from the turbulent nature of the processes going on within the atmosphere and oceans. Such predictability as there is in turbulent fluids is governed by the size (the “scale”) of the boundaries that contain and limit the size to which random turbulent eddies can grow. Thus reasonably correct forecasts of the average climate of the world might be possible in principle. On the scale of regions (anything much smaller than the scale of the major ocean basins for example) it has yet to be shown that useful long-term climate forecasting is possible even in principle.

To expand on that a little, the forecasts of the global average rise in temperature by the various theoretical models around the world range from about 1 degree to 6 degrees Celsius by the end of this century—which does little more than support the purely qualitative conclusion from simple physical reasoning that more carbon dioxide in the atmosphere will increase the global average temperature above what it would have been otherwise. It does little to resolve the fundamental question as to what fraction of the observed rise in global surface temperature over the last thirty or so years (equivalent to a rise of about 1 degree Celsius per century if one is inclined to believe observations rather than the theory) is attributable to the human-induced increase in atmospheric carbon dioxide. There is still a distinct possibility that much of the observed rise in global temperature may be the result of natural (and maybe random) variability of the system.

While the forecasts of future global average climate are not really trustworthy and would probably not be very useful even if they were, the potentially much more useful forecasts of regional climates are perhaps just nonsense. A good example supporting this rather negative view of the matter is the variability of the set of hundred-year forecasts of the average rainfall over Australia. Each forecast was produced by one of the many climate models from around the world. The present-day measured average is about 450 millimetres per year. The forecasts for the next century range from less than 200 mm to more than 1000 mm per year. That sort of thing makes finding a model to support a particular narrative just too easy.

As a consequence, the economic models of the future of regions and nations are highly unreliable if only because their regional and national inputs of forecasted climatic “data” are unreliable. But to make matters vastly worse, the economic models themselves are almost certainly useless over time-scales relevant to climate. Their internal workings are based on statistical relations between economic variables devised for present-day conditions. There is no particular reason why these relations should be valid in the future when the characteristics of society will almost certainly have changed. As Michael Crichton put it: “Our [economic] models just carry the present into the future.” And as Kenneth Galbraith once remarked: “Economic forecasting was invented to make astrology look respectable.”

There is a lot of discussion among academics as to what should be an appropriate “discount for the future” to apply in the cost-benefit calculations associated with human-induced climate change. The discussion quickly becomes incomprehensible to the average person when phrases such as “cross generational wealth transfer” and “intergenerational neutrality” and so on appear in the argument. These are fancy terms supposedly relevant to what is essentially a qualitative concept of fairness to future generations. The concept is so qualitative that there is virtually no hope of getting general agreement as to how much we should spend now so as not to upset the people of the future.

There are two extremes of thought on the matter. At one end there are those who tell us that the present-day view of a benefit for future generations should be discounted at the normal rate associated with business transactions of today. That is, it should be something of the order of 5 to 10 per cent a year. The problem for the academics is that such a discount would ensure virtually no active concern for the welfare of people more than a generation or so ahead, and would effectively wipe out any reason for immediate action on climate. At the other end of the scale, there are those who tell us that the value of future climatic benefit should not be discounted at all—in which case there is an infinite time into the future that should concern us, and “being fair” to that extended future implies that we should not object to spending an unlimited amount of present-day money on the problem.

Academics tie themselves in knots to justify the need for immediate action on climate change. For example, we hear argument that “discounting should not be used for determining our ethical obligations to the future” but that (in the same breath) “we endorse a principle of intergenerational neutrality”—and then we hear guesses of appropriate discount rates of the order (say) of 1.5 per cent a year.

The significant point in this cost-benefit business is that there is virtually no certainty about any of the numbers that are used to calculate either the likely change of climate or the impact of that change on future populations. In essence it is simply assumed that all climate change is bad—that the current climate is the best of all possible climates. Furthermore, there is little or no recognition in most of the scenarios that mankind is very good at adapting to new circumstances. It is more than likely that, if indeed climate change is noticeably “bad”, the future population will adjust to the changed circumstances. If the change is “good”, the population will again adapt and become richer as a consequence. If the change is a mixture of good and bad, the chances are that the adaptive processes will ensure a net improvement in wealth. This for a population which, if history is any guide, and for reasons entirely independent of climate change, will probably be a lot wealthier than we are.

Perhaps the whole idea of being fair to the people of the future should be reversed. Perhaps they can easily afford to owe us something in retrospect.

The bottom line of politically correct thought on the matter—the thought that we must collectively do something drastic now to prevent climate change in the future—is so full of holes that it brings the overall sanity of mankind into question. For what it is worth, one possible theory is that mankind (or at least that fraction of it that has become both over-educated and more delicate as a result of a massive increase of its wealth in recent times) has managed to remove the beliefs of existing religions from its consideration—and now it misses them. As a replacement, it has manufactured a set of beliefs about climate change that can be used to guide and ultimately to control human behaviour. The beliefs are similar to those of the established religions in that they are more or less unprovable in any strict scientific sense.

This essay originally appeared in The Quadrant.

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a happy little debunker
May 7, 2019 2:13 pm

During our current Australian election cycle, our extremed alarmist opposition leader is incapable of costing his global warming policies, because (he claims) you cannot consider the policy costings without considering the cost of inaction.

Yet, he makes no attempt to actually cost inaction.

He wants a blank cheque – sensible Australians are apprehensive – unfortunately, we seem to be in the minority!

Craig from Oz
Reply to  a happy little debunker
May 7, 2019 11:10 pm

Bill (the political person in question) is also a person who regularly displays an public image of ‘idiot’.

Back in the day when his side was in power and Gillard was PM he was being interviewed on television on some topic. Immigration I believe, but open to correction.

The interview went pretty much literally like this.

– Mr Shorten, what is your view on the topic?
– I agree with the Prime Minister.
– On which part of what she said?
– Oh all of it.
(awkward pause)
– So you don’t know what she has most recently said?
– No, but I agree with it.

He is… interesting.

As part of this election he also apparently recently came up with the following gem of wisdom;

“If you really think there is a cost to taking action on climate change, then why have 2 million Australian households already invested in solar?”

If anyone can translate that into something that actually makes sense I will buy them beer.

May 7, 2019 4:25 pm

As usual both the original article and the comments are of great interest.
However as I keep saying go back to the key card in this whole Global
warming, come climate change, come extreme weather, come acid rain and sea, come anything else frightful that they can dream up.

So what do we know about CO2. First it is not a pollutant, its not a solid, i.e. bits of coal flying through the air, Hi.

We do know that it CO2 accepts energy from the Sun, and that contrary to the Greens theory it does not store heat energy, but re-radiates it.

But and this is most important, the effect re. possible heating, is that it is logarithmic that after the first 150 pip that its warming effect rapidly decreases, so by the time we get to say 500 pip there is almost no heating resulting from any further increase.

So what is wrong with it, well we know that its natures fertilizer, and that all life on Earth totally depends on it, so what is there to not like about it. ?
Accept that the whole matter of Global warming come climate etc. is just a giant sized fairy tale, who’s long term goal is to force a form of World Government onto the Western nations, plus this nonsense dreamed up by the mostly African nations that because we in the West were prepared against great opposition from forces such as the church and others who liked thing just as they were, to force change in our society and via the Industrial revolution improve our way of living.

So now we are being told that because of our previous sinful ways we must pay vast sums of money to those nations who’s societies were not so prepared to work hard and change things.

Nature has always changed, and always will. So by becoming wealthier we can have the money needed to repair any damage that nature all by itself, no help from us, will cause to happen.

This Earth of ours is doing just fine, so let it be and lets enjoy it. As for the Green mob mob, there are plenty of islands around for them to carry out their “Brave New World”” ideas on. Only if their way is clearly far better than ours should we pay any attention to them.

MJE VK5ELL

Reply to  Michael
May 8, 2019 5:27 am

Michael: “We do know that it CO2 accepts energy from the Sun, and that contrary to the Greens theory it does not store heat energy, but re-radiates it.”

It’s not quite that simple. When a CO2 molecule absorbs a photon of IR it’s vibrational energy increases, i.e. it becomes more energetic. If that molecule “hits” another molecule before it radiates the excess heat away it can transfer that kinetic energy to the second molecule instead of radiating. It then depends on what the second molecule, e.g. O2 or H2O, does with that additional energy as far as the atmosphere is concerned.

Curious George
May 7, 2019 5:53 pm

According to Dr. Richard Tol (https://judithcurry.com/2019/05/06/climates-uncertainty-principle/#comment-892578), this exercise has been running for 25 years. Can we compare 1999 predictions with 2018 data?

damp
May 7, 2019 6:08 pm

Costs and benefits are fun, but only after you’ve answered the question: By what authority do you propose to use force against innocent human beings? As a child would put it, “Who made you the boss of me?” There are some answers to this question (otherwise there could be no legitimate government) but the question needs to be answered, and I don’t see any attempt among the would-be totalitarians to address it.

Donald Kasper
May 7, 2019 6:42 pm

“Whether we should do anything now to limit our impact on future climate boils down to an assessment of a relevant cost-benefit ratio.” No it doesn’t. First we don’t know what the climate is doing because we don’t have enough coverage on the planet to know. Second, we don’t have competent regional coverage to know variations. Third, single numbers to represent the planet have no real world meaning to anything going on. Fourth, the instrumentation has changed constantly, so we don’t have any cross-correlation to know if we can use each of them in the same data set. Lastly, the instrument and observational methodology errors and changes are so great, we have not observed any real changes in climate so far above those error levels. We see people studying noise and looking for a trend while saying how smart they are.

H.R.
May 7, 2019 9:35 pm

Judging by the comments thus far, it seems that passing the ‘Prevent CAGW’ hat around in this crowd would be pointless. My hands would remain tightly in my pockets, too.

Craig from Oz
May 7, 2019 11:19 pm

The problem with this article is it skims over the base argument – Is Global Warming(tm) actually real?

Here we are debating taking action on Global Warming(tm) and if this is actually going to be a long term assistance after a short period of pain, or a long period of pain after a short period of pain, but we have skimmed over the start argument.

This sort of debate is like saying “If we assume you actually did the murder, then do you think we should lock you up for life, attempt to reform you, or bring back the death penalty for your sins”, and then narrowing discussion down to an easier to explain debate between “Life imprisonment vs Death Penalty”.

All very moral and ethical and important, but completely avoiding the basic core problem that no one has actually been murdered and there is no guilt or innocence when then isn’t actually any crime.

Attempting to discuss the affects of Global Warming(tm) is pure whimsy unless it is firmly established that Global Warming(tm) even exists.

BillP
May 8, 2019 12:06 am

Dr. Judith Curry is a good climatologist, but she is clearly not an economist.

In the opening paragraph she falls for one of the lies the left is using: “discount for the future” is NOT the rate at which our concern for the welfare of future generations falls away as we look further and further ahead. The point is that if one invests resources now, we expect a larger payback in the future. Would you pay into a pension fund that only promised to return you contributions decades from now, with no interest?

Aiming to increase the total of human wealth is exhibiting concern for future generations not a reduction in concern for them.

The left are pushing the lie about what discount rate is because they want policies that do not make economic sense.

Sciguy54
May 8, 2019 6:11 am

The Global Warming Mantra in a nutshell: I am certain the return on our huge investment will turn positive… some time after my retirement.

https://dilbert.com/strip/2019-04-14

May 8, 2019 5:17 pm

Whilst my explanation a to how CO2 actually works may not be 100 %
perfect, is it or is it not true that the fact is that past say 500 pip of CO2 will not by itself add any more heat to any other gas. re. the logerithmic effect.

Anyway cores from drilling appear to show that the CO2 level has been way past 500 pip the past , with no ill effects. So CO2 is not a problem, and never has been.

Its just a fairy tale spun by those of a certain political thinking, who are of the belief that only a form of World Government, with of course them in charge, will fix what they consider to be the problems.

MJE VK5ELL

Gilles Fecteau
May 9, 2019 5:35 am

This entire article should be discarded as it is based on two fundamental mistakes.
First, It assumes the damage from global warming will be borne by future generations.
Second it assumes taking action today has a high cost, negating to account for the economic gain from transiting to a non carbon economy.

Let’s address the first point:

Global warming is here now; it is more prevalent in certain regions. The most severe warming is in the Arctic. That warming causes significant changes in the jet streams, resulting in many weather anomalies in the north hemisphere. Increase in forest fires on the West Coast of North America and in Europe, extreme heat waves in Europe, to name a few. The warming and acidification of the ocean also contribute to losses in marine life and bio diversity (some from corral bleaching). Increase in strong hurricanes (twelve of the sixteen most destructive hurricanes in US history occurred this century.

On the second point,
Renewable energy has created more jobs in the US than coal and oil exploitation in the past few years.
The cost of solar is now lower than coal. In Australia, a mix of solar and wind is cheaper and more reliable than coal or natural gas, thanks to the implementation of industrial size storage batteries.

RACookPE1978
Editor
Reply to  Gilles Fecteau
May 9, 2019 8:05 am

No. Not true. Good press releases though, but not true.

Gilles Fecteau
Reply to  RACookPE1978
May 9, 2019 11:27 am

What do you think is not true?

Reply to  Gilles Fecteau
May 9, 2019 3:18 pm

West coast fires are *NOT* due to global warming. They are due to mismanagement of the land, trees, and undergrowth. The fires are directly MAN MADE.

Extreme heat waves have been happening in Europe forever. They are not more prevalent today.

Fred Hubler
Reply to  Gilles Fecteau
May 9, 2019 7:03 pm

In fact, the Camp Fire in California that destroyed so many homes was caused by the failure of a PG&E transformer and made much worse by mismanagement of the forest. California is so heavily invested in wind and solar that they occasionally have to pay Arizona to take excess electricity when the output of wind or solar changes suddenly and base load generation can not be reduced fast enough. Given that, how do we know that the transformer failure wasn’t caused by a sudden over voltage condition as happened at an airport in Denmark a few years ago?

Fred Hubler
Reply to  Gilles Fecteau
May 9, 2019 8:47 am

How is it that renewable energy can create more jobs and reduce the cost of energy except through massive government subsidies? Jobs are not a benefit of a policy, but a cost. Do the cost figures you refer to in your 2nd point include the cost of battery storage? Why does Australia have the highest electricity costs in the world?

Gilles Fecteau
Reply to  Fred Hubler
May 9, 2019 12:19 pm

If you think massive government subsidies are bad; why are they allowed for oil and gas ( $4.6 billion per year). Wind and solar are thriving in Europe without subsidies. see:
https://www.vox.com/2018/5/30/17408602/solar-wind-energy-renewable-subsidy-europe
I never said that renewable would cost less. I said it creates more jobs. For a free market economy to function, people need the ability to spend. That mean having jobs. Higher cost the result in the concentration of wealth into few is bad for the economy, but cost that generate large number of jobs is good.
When considering the cost to the country of burning hydrocarbon, you should include the remedial cost from increase weather events.

Fred Hubler
Reply to  Gilles Fecteau
May 9, 2019 2:06 pm

If it weren’t for Australia Germany and Denmark would have the highest electricity rates in the world, and weather is not becoming more extreme.
In a study published in the Journal of the American Meteorological Society in 2011, IPCC author Laurens Bouwer states that increased monetary losses (due to extreme weather) are due to increased development and the increased value of property at risk rather than to extreme weather becoming more frequent or more severe. He went on to advocate the use of climate model forecasts of extreme weather to raise climate change awareness, rather than actual historical weather data, because the actual data shows weather is not becoming more extreme. http://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/abs/10.1175/2010BAMS3092.1
In 2014, Warren Buffett claimed that climate change has not affected Berkshire Hathaway’s insurance business, and that they have not changed the way they forecast losses.
https://www.cnbc.com/2014/03/03/no-climate-change-impact-on-insurance-biz-buffett.html
Roger Pielke Jr.’s compilation of extreme weather data shows there has been a slight decline in the frequency and intensity of extreme weather since about 1950. He is derided by many for not being a climate scientist even though his data is drawn from government records and is not contradicted in any way by the IPCC Special Report on Extremes (IPCC SREX 2012). Near the end of Congressional testimony in March 2017, climate scientist Michael Mann did not refute Piekle’s claims, saying only that they were obsolete, even though Pielke had updated them for the hearings, and then changed the subject to attribution (i.e. how much of the severity of a particular extreme weather event can be attributed to global warming). Dr. Roger Pielke Jr’s written testimony for March 2017 Congressional hearing on climate is here: https://science.house.gov/sites/republicans.science.house.gov/files/documents/HHRG-115-SY-WState-RPielke-20170329.pdf
A video of the Congressional committee hearing is here: https://science.house.gov/legislation/hearings/full-committee-hearing-climate-science-assumptions-policy-implications-and
The period between hurricane Wilma in 2005 and hurricane Harvey in 2017 was the longest stretch in recorded history with no category 3 or greater hurricanes making landfall in the US.
For the first time since record keeping began in 1950 there were no category EF4 or EF5 tornadoes in the US In 2018.

Fred Hubler
Reply to  Gilles Fecteau
May 9, 2019 2:12 pm

Federal subsidies for wind and solar on a per unit of energy basis are a moving target, and they have declined in recent years. I can’t find a more recent report on this, but in 2013 federal electric subsidies for solar were $213 per MWh, and for wind they were $35 per MWh while for coal, gas and oil they were less than $1 per MWh. See the last figure in this link. https://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/renewable/wind/eia-subsidy-report-solar-subsidies-increase-389-percent/

The federal transferable tax credit for wind power is currently $24 per MWh.

Dan Tauke
May 9, 2019 8:53 am

Judith lays out a compelling argument for all the uncertainties involved, but ultimately we need tools to address the uncertainties or we risk allowing intuition, bias and logical failures to rule the day. One concept here that is used both for forecasting uncertainties as well as business case uncertainties – or differences of opinion (such as discount rate) is a Monte Carlo type analysis. Isolate all of the key assumptions for both the climate forecast (including regional forecasts if they have significant impact on costs) and the business case, and then assign not just point values to them but distribution curves which reflect the amount of uncertainty for each assumption. Once this is done, the Monte Carlo analysis would run 10,000 or so simulations with each simulation randomly (within the boundaries of the distribution curves) pick a value for each assumption and calculate the climate forecast costs, benefits and resulting ROI and plot them for the audience. This method allows people to see the RANGE of possible outcomes, and it also shows WHICH ASSUMPTIONS are the biggest drivers of the outcome so one can focus the debate around the 5 or 10 main assumptions. Then scientists or politicians can argue about the distribution curves for those assumptions, and re-run the model in an iterative fashion. Over time, as science reduces the uncertainty for an assumption, the distribution curve can be tightened and it can be re-run. Complicated, maybe, but necessary imho if we are to get anywhere with these decisions.

Farmer Ch E retired
May 9, 2019 4:00 pm

great post – thanks