Since the Ford government in Ontario in July ended rebates of up to $14,000 and the final recipients were registered Sept. 10, sales of the Nissan Leaf have all but collapsed. Photo: Nissan
There is little question that rebates are essential to selling EVs, but no one really knew just how much until now.
Sales of electrified vehicles have plummeted in Ontario since the Doug Ford government removed purchase incentives, and Quebec dealers are reaping the benefits as inventory is reallocated, slashing their wait times for delivery.
Since the Ford government in July ended rebates of up to $14,000 and the final recipients were registered Sept. 10, sales of the Nissan Leaf have all but collapsed. In August, 695 units were sold. In November, just 10, according to figures supplied by Nissan Canada. In Quebec in November alone, 283 units were sold.
General Motors of Canada declined to provide data, but spokeswoman Ester Bucci said the brand has “seen a decline of EV sales” since the rebate’s cancellation, noting that sales in Quebec and British Columbia, where incentives remain in place, are holding strong with Chevrolet Bolt sales posting an overall nationwide increase of 30 per cent year over year. The automaker didn’t provide a brand or model breakdown for December sales.
Chris Budd, owner of Budds’ Group of Companies, which operates nine dealerships in Oakville and Hamilton, Ont., told Automotive News Canada he has seen a decline in interest in EVs at his storefronts.
“We do find [EVs have] pulled back in consideration and sales,” he said. “Our GM facility sold and delivered 91 electric cars last year when the credit was in place. We expect less than 20 with no credit in place.
“It was a growing business and we would have forecast an increase had the credit stayed in place. Supply was always a problem as availability was very lean from GM.”
BUYERS WAIT AND SEE?
Budd said he wasn’t sure whether the decline was due to an untenable price for EVs without the subsidy, or whether consumers were waiting to see whether Ottawa would offer an alternative rebate program.
“There is no doubt that the consumer for electric was somewhat different … more conscious of the environment, new technology, being ground breakers, etc., so we believe some of the backdraft that is present now after the cancellation of credits will pass,” he said. “I believe the credit was too high in Ontario, and if there were a federal program of a more tenable cost/credit was available, we would have a logical uptick.”
Meanwhile, dealers in Quebec are celebrating as automakers redistribute inventory to their stores, dramatically reducing wait times.
“We are receiving an incremental amount of hybrid vehicles in Quebec,” said Denis Leclerc, president of the Albi group of dealerships. “As an example, in our Hyundai dealerships, ordering a hybrid vehicle used to take three to four months. Now, we talk about three to four weeks.
“Another example is Chevrolet. Last year, it took six months to receive a Bolt, and now it takes eight to 10 weeks. We also have Volt in our inventory, and last year this wasn’t the case.”
HT/Marcus
They should rebrand the model”Maple Leaf” for the Ontario market.
& “Fallen Leaf” in Ontario!
And redesign the battery recharging port accordingly
The real Leafs have lost two in a row and 5 of their last 10. I wonder if there is a connection?
There was never a reason to buy an EV other than virtue signaling. Even virtue signaling has a price barrier.
I disagree. If you’re living in a city, with short journeys, they’re ideal.
No exhaust pollution, easy to drive in stop/start traffic, low maintainable & fuel costs.
Yes, and within the walls of retirement communities … like expensive, enclosed, golf carts.
In other words not the real world for most people.
Then go buy one. That easy. But if you are like the many who are looking at the current price of EV’s; you will not find a payout that pleases. Why not buy a cheap fuel efficient gas driven car that can be used for long trips as well as around the city? That way you don’t have to buy two cars.
An Electric can be made long-range with the simple addition of a fuel-efficient onboard charging system. Cheaper than two cars but there is still a cost issue.
Could still make sense if you can charge at work on your bosses nickel.
“on board charging system? I think they have those. They call them “hybrids”.
Are you suggesting plugging your EV into a small quite Honda generator sitting in the trunk or strapped to the roof?
https://powerequipment.honda.com/generators/models/eu7000is
“Jim Whelan”
Not quite. A hybrid is capable of full performance running on fuel alone. An either-or option.
I was thinking of a range extender. Replacing half your battery charge would double your range. More if left running during lunch or bathroom stops.
Hybrids defeat their purpose when many users do not bother to charge them. A recent survey apparently found that many fleet hybrids had never even had their charging cords unpackaged. Unfortunately, I did not save a link.
“Jeff in Calgary”
That is the general idea but I was thinking more of a specific, designed for purpose, propane or NG unit. You paint a funny picture though. Personally, I would probably carry a generator in my trunk if I owned an EV. I might appear more redneck than I already do, though.
Why not buy a cheap fuel efficient gas driven car that can be used for long trips as well as around the city? That way you don’t have to buy two cars.
Not everyone would need a second car. If the majority of your driving is short trips well within the range of an EV, then you only need that one car. For the rare longer trips, you can rent an appropriate vehicle (or use public transit such as plane, train or bus depending on destination) – it’ll be a lot cheaper than the cost of buying, maintaining and insuring a second car for the life of said car.
On the flip side, many families already have multiple cars, so making one an EV wouldn’t be that much different than what they have now (assuming, of course, that they don’t ever need to take long trips in both cars at the same time).
“If the majority of your driving is short trips well within the range of an EV, then you only need that one car.”
I don’t buy a car for the majority of my driving – I need it to handle ALL of my driving needs. Short/long distance, commuting/shopping/holidays, I need all of these things in a vehicle. Fully electric vehicles cannot supply my needs.
Then you are not a good fit for an EV, there’s nothing wrong with that (remember the post you are replying to starts with the phrase “not everyone”, there is no one-fit for all solutions). Other people, particularly those who live in cities, only drive short distances for pretty much all their commuting/shopping/entertainment/etc. needs and go long distance only for the occasional holiday (for which they’re likely already flying to their far off destination anyway). such people would be a good fit for EVs (assuming they can find a place to charge them, not so easy for some city folk).
I love the comments of folks like Rob who criticize EVs because they are not suitable for THEIR needs. Good grief, I don’t have any use for a 3/4 ton pickup truck, but I wouldn’t go onto a truck site and bash them. Oh, and when you drill down on real world daily driving that folks down, a 300 mile range is more than enough for the vast majority of people. And on the rate occasions when folks need a longer range, they can stop and charge up. Is it really that much of an inconvenience to stop and have lunch for an hour while charging up?
“I love the comments of folks like Rob who criticize EVs because they are not suitable for THEIR needs.”
Perhaps we’re trying to explain this:
https://driving.ca/auto-news/news/electric-car-sales-soaring-but-canada-still-nowhere-near-goal-set-in-2009
Seems that “not suitable for THEIR needs” includes quite a few people, at least here in Canada…
Oh, and when you drill down on real world daily driving that folks down, a 300 mile range is more than enough for the vast majority of people.
Unfortunately the vast majority of EVs don’t even list a third of that for their range. so EV’s range are not “more than enough” for the vast majority of people by your own number (300 mile range).
https://evobsession.com/electric-car-range-comparison/
Mitsubishi iMiEV = 62 Miles
Smart Electric Drive = 68 Miles
Ford Focus Electric = 76 Miles
BMW i3 = 81 Miles
Chevy Spark EV = 82 Miles
VW e-Golf = 83 Miles
Mercedes B-Class Electric = 84 Miles
Nissan LEAF = 84 Miles
Fiat 500e = 87 Miles
Kia Soul EV = 93 Miles
Tesla Model S = 240 to 286 Miles
Of those only the Tesla comes anywhere close. And that assumes you don’t live in a cold climate (Alaska, or Northern Canada for example) and don’t follow the advice Tesla gives for keeping a long battery life (only charge to 90% don’t go below 20% – which would chop nearly a third of your range off)
Granted that list is from the 2015 models, but very few if any of them have had a model upgrade since, so the current year models are likely not much different for most of the cars on that list.
John, the Hyundai Kona Electric has a 258 mile range, 160 miles when it is cold. 88 MPGe. It’s hitting the market right now, and the base price will be $38K – that’s pretty good for a crossover vehicle. That’s certainly more than the gas version price, but parity is predicted by 2024.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-22/electric-cars-may-be-cheaper-than-gas-guzzlers-in-seven-years
John, here is the Kona review: https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2019-hyundai-kona-electric-suv
I agree with you Adam . I will need sometime to replace my battered but beloved old Fiesta for local journeys and recreational use. It cost me , 10 years ago, £4000 , with about 30, 000 miles on the clock . A similar mileage Leaf ( lovely car) would be at least £10000 and the battery would have been through 200- 300 charging cycles- so how reliable would it be?
So why is the Leaf so expensive ? Economies of scale? The battery cost? If the latter why are batteries so expensive ? Solve that (easy to say , maybe impossible to do?) and electric car purchase will really take off.
That is what puts me off, the battery life.
Battery life is no longer an issue. https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-data/
So Tesla is recommending only a 70% charge to keep battery life from declining below around 90-95%.
Doesn’t that reduce the 270 mile range to below 190 miles? In good weather? In daylight? No heat or A/C? No snow or ice or wipers or fan on high heat to keep the windshield clear? No headlights? Outside of a city, that’s not worth much.
Bob, here is actual field data from Tesla owners. After 250,000 km, still above 90%.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/t024bMoRiDPIDialGnuKPsg/edit#gid=154312675
There is some fake news pushing EV cars. Check consumer report sites.
Battery range and time to charge is an issue.
EV battery performance is ridiculous in cold weather.
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/lousy-range-cold-weather.105476/
“Battery range is really lousy and unacceptable here in freezing cold Chicago. Below about 20F i have to keep the the heater running on high and that GREATLY reduces range and increases battery drain.
did Tesla every test this car outside of calif????
I’ve had my X for about a month and loved it until it got unusually cold . and worse….the faster i go the colder the car interior gets. DOES ANYONE ELSE HAVE THIS PROBLEM. can’t find an air leak; maybe it’s the big windshield??
Tesla advertises range as 235 miles BUT then says only charge to 90% so that’s 211 miles. and then says “don’t get below 20%” (obviously a good idea since you never know if an accident will stop traffic for an hour) so that’s 169 miles. and apparently the heater uses about 25 mi. per hour so i constantly have to look for a charger when driving more than to/from work!!”
https://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/tesla_motors.html
“The car does not even come close to the estimate range of 237 miles (we are lucky to get 200) but the charging time is longer than the 30-45 minutes they claim (not once have we charged the battery for less than 1.5 hours). ….
…. The customer service is lousy, no one knows anything. They tell you different things and you can’t get any answers. For a $100,000 car this is unacceptable.”
https://news.abs-cbn.com/business/08/05/18/battery-of-complaints-against-tesla-in-norway
Chris – The 70% I quoted is taken from the link you provided:
“With this said, Jeff Dahn, a renowned battery researcher and the leader of Tesla’s research partnership through his battery-research group at Dalhousie University, said that he recommends charging to only 70% daily in order to extend battery life.”
So I’m trying to understand what this means. Does Tesla recommend “charging to only 70% daily” to extend battery life such that it eventually only falls to a potential of between 95% and 90%?
I understand there can be valid uses for an EV, but is this saying that on a regular basis only charge the battery to 70%, so on those occasions you need to go an extra 50 miles you can charge it fully and not harm battery life?
This seems like an awful lot of worry and hassle for an expensive car that is severely range-restricted.
BobM, I also read the link. I do not think that most owners follow that rule. Or, to put it another way, it is recommended that you never charge your phone or laptop above 90% in order to maximize battery life. How many people follow that rule? 5% at most, I would guess. I don’t have time to find and read owners’ comments on that topic, but I am sure you could find it on comment boards for owners. Tesla will certainly be conservative from a liability standpoint. But the fact that large numbers of owners are at over 200,000km and still above 90% on battery capacity leads me to believe it is not an issue.
There is a double edged sword with EVs. They are ideal in big cites -short trips, tight parking, easy in stop & go traffic. The downside is you might be parked on a street or in a large parking garage at best. Where to charge now? Especially the ones like the Leaf that have such a short range. They need to be charged every couple of days. That’s fine if you have a home with a private garage. Urban dwellers do not.
Indeed, where they are ideal (big cities where you don’t need to travel far) you don’t have ideal charging abilities (if you live in a high rise apartment in the city, you can’t just plug it into your home outlet as you’ll be parked several floors down and possible several yards away out in the street.). But where you do have ideal charging abilities (your own private home in the rural/suburban areas – either with a garage or at least an outlet next to the driveway) is where they are not ideal transport (you need something that lasts for longer distances, particularly if your home is in a rural area).
@John Endicott, you hit the nail square on the head.
EVs are poorly suited for almost everyone, essentially.
Their range is too limited, their recharge times too long and from too limited a number of locations, and their price too high unless taxpayers provide “discounts” they shouldn’t be forced to provide.
Oh, and if the Eco-Nazis continue to have their way with the electric grid, you won’t even be able to rely on the few places where you CAN “plug in” to recharge them, due to “renewable”-induced power shortages, brownouts and blackouts.
Adam, in big cities, public transport is more ideal; short trips, no parking worries, easy to let someone else do the driving in stop and go traffic.
And you don’t need to find somewhere in your street to park the second car (because who in their right mind buys an EV as their only car?), nor worry about battery degredation, annual servicing, road tolls, fuel excise or plummeting resale value.
And if virtue signalling is your thing, short of hopping on a deadly treadly and getting a chaffed arse riding to work, surely collectively riding the scum-shovel beats indulgently buying an EV on the tax-payer’s dime,charging it with electricity that for most KWhrs around the world still comes form something reliable like coal or gas, and cluttering up the roads driving it solo to and from work each day.
…So why bother with a poxy, overpriced dodgem car at all?
And you don’t need to find somewhere in your street to park the second car (because who in their right mind buys an EV as their only car?),
If mostly all your commuting needs are short distances, you don’t need a second car. You can always rent one for the rare occasions you travel long distances out of the city (or take a bus, train or plane, depending on destination). No, the problem isn’t with a mythical second car, it’s where do you park your one an only car? If your one and only car is an ICE, it doesn’t matter so much. You can park anywhere there is space to park. one spot is basically as good as any other. But, if your one and only car is an EV, you want to park near where you can plug-in to charge it. parking on the street isn’t much good as there’s no ready outlet for charging, but if you live in the city, that may be your only choice.
This battery life question! first Tesla lie their asses off so ignore them, look at your laptop or cellphone, same technology battery but the smaller ones are higher quality and are better monirored on charge (a lot less cells to control) if you fully use your Tesla or leaf every day, expect to be buying batteries in 3 years! the 90% after 250k is so doubtful! to acheive that mileage in a stunted vehicle like a Tesla would be a marathon!
“EVs are poorly suited for almost everyone, essentially.
Their range is too limited, their recharge times too long and from too limited a number of locations, and their price too high unless taxpayers provide “discounts” they shouldn’t be forced to provide.”
Nonsense, spoken like a true ICE zealot. 300 miles is too limited? The average American male drives 16,000 miles per year. If the owner charges after 200 miles to be conservative, that’s 80 charges in a year, or one every 5 days. 63% of all housing units in America have a carport or garage. So an EV is a suitable solution for 63% of folks, and many apartments/condos are adding charging stations, and many work and shopping places are adding charging stations. Your post is like someone saying big trucks are a bad idea because they are not practical in big cities, where many Americans live. Yet truck sales do just fine.
Chris Edwards – read the data from actual Tesla owners. https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-data/
“They are ideal in big cites -short trips, tight parking, easy in stop & go traffic”
My Kona fits that exactly (NOT AN EV)
Nonsense, spoken like a true ICE zealot. 300 miles is too limited?
Unfortunately the vast majority of EVs don’t even list a third of that for their range. so EV’s range are not “more than enough” for the vast majority of people by your own number (300 mile range).
https://evobsession.com/electric-car-range-comparison/
Mitsubishi iMiEV = 62 Miles
Smart Electric Drive = 68 Miles
Ford Focus Electric = 76 Miles
BMW i3 = 81 Miles
Chevy Spark EV = 82 Miles
VW e-Golf = 83 Miles
Mercedes B-Class Electric = 84 Miles
Nissan LEAF = 84 Miles
Fiat 500e = 87 Miles
Kia Soul EV = 93 Miles
Tesla Model S = 240 to 286 Miles
Of those only the Tesla comes anywhere close. And that assumes you don’t live in a cold climate (Alaska, or Northern Canada for example) and don’t follow the advice Tesla gives for keeping a long battery life (only charge to 90% don’t go below 20% – which would chop nearly a third of your range off)
Granted that list is from the 2015 models, but very few if any of them have had a model upgrade since, so the current year models are likely not much different for most of the cars on that list.
John, in my analysis I used 200 miles, the exact figure you arrived at when you said “chops 1/3 of the range off.” And maybe Tesla’s much better range is why they are dominating sales, as it should be. Other mfrs are planning to spend $300B over the next few years to catch up. So, for now, if range is important, buy a Tesla. There will be lots of other options in the next few years.
They are only good if you are a parasite! A city is the only place they can be used and if you need the simplicity of a toy car then you should not be allowed to drive at all. When they get taxed per mile like real cars no one will want the crap. They are very complicated they use a lot of rare earth materials and thus are expensive, some of their materials like Cobalt are rising in cost as demand is greater than supply, hence they are expensive, then toys for the rich are supposed to be!
Not only in town, but they can go like stink too. Just a shame the batteries dont last and hold a big enough charge.
Except they do last, and they do hold a large charge.
“If you’re living in a city, with short journeys, they’re ideal”
But only if you have off-street parking available (so they can be plugged in to charge), otherwise they are a liability.
Indeed. While they are ideally suited to the travel distance of city life, they are not ideal given the parking/charging situation that comes with city life. (finding a place to park with easy access to a charge in the big city isn’t easy).
Could be useful as taxicabs. Those companies have facilities and could charge them, though many taxis are in use for at least 2 shifts per day, so forget that too…
Uber drivers? Coming in from the suburbs?
I don’t see a Tesla being a great taxi cab vehicle, though. Does it have room for luggage?
Sorry, but I’ve not seen one and don’t know anyone that owns one either… Wouldn’t work for me with our family home and vacation home 650 miles apart. We can travel back and forth in 9 1/2 hours on a good day, stopping once for gas. We wouldn’t even want a Tesla for a second or third car.
Nonsense, they are more suitable for suburban areas. 63% of Americans live in houses with a carport or garage. 300 miles is plenty of range, the average commute is 15 miles.
Chris
“…the average commute is 15 miles…”
So catch the bus.
Or, if you really need your neighbours to see you doing something to save the planet, ride a push-bike; they can be electrically boosted if there is a hill en-route these days.
If an EV is your only car, and it’s justified because your commute to work in the city is short, think of how much cheaper car ownership is and how much lower your ‘carbon footprint’ is if you don’t own a car at all.
Erny,
Mass transit options are not available to all. Your same logic about EVs would apply to ICEs. So I’m not sure how your comment is relevant to an EV versus ICE discussion.
They are only good if you are a parasite! A city is the only place they can be used and if you need the simplicity of a toy car then you should not be allowed to drive at all. When they get taxed per mile like real cars no one will want the crap.
There is 7% state sales tax on my electric bill. Check yours. Plus, 30-40% of the rest of your electric bill is going to the State in property taxes. More CCGTs means more property tax the state gets to collect.
Need to add having a garage in which to charge one.
I am with Adam. They DO have their place and if that place is driving to the shops and back 3 times a week they are fine.
The fact their emissions are elsewhere can also be an advantage in that they can help improve air quality at the physical street level.
What they can’t do is run on unicorns and rainbows and all users need to accept the fact that their car runs on coal and that for the life of the car it is extremely debatable which types of car are more environmentally friendly. (Cough – massive lithium battery – cough.)
So they COULD be the perfect car for some people.
I am not those people which is why I drive and enjoy a turbo diesel and can get 1000km highway on a single tank (that I can then ‘recharge’ in under 10 minutes).
I also completely disagree with rebates for EV cars. If you want to buy one, use your own money.
OK, are they still ideal without the taxpayer funded subsidies?
It would seem ideal except for price…since without subsidies very few will pay for them.
I can hardly wait to see an end to the free charging stations I see at workplaces and scattered about here and there? There exists the technology to accept credit cards at parking meters, the same could be applied to charging stations. If you want to plug in and charge here, swipe your card and the charger won’t turn on until you do. Oh, yeah, BTW, and find a way to collect the road taxes now paid for by gasoline and diesel fuel taxes with each gallon you buy. If both those things happen, as well as ending the vehicle subsidies, I would be less opposed to other people buying electric vehicles. (Now buyers please understand, if it’s available you would be foolish not to accept it so I don’t hold anything against you, I reserve my animus for the damn fool governments that spend my tax money, or mandate others spend their money on these damn fool virtue signaling pieces of c**p!)
Tesla delivered 82,000 cars in Q4 2018. The price of batteries is dropping, it’s just a matter of time.
Cost of battery is just one factor to consider. And even that isn’t dropping as fast as would be needed to make the price viable compared to ICE alternatives any time soon (which is one reason why when price incentives disappear, so too do sales)
“Cost of battery is just one factor to consider”
Don’t worry, there will soon be (another) war in the Congo and battery prices will (eventually) drop after a few more million Africans die…
“Cost of battery is just one factor to consider.”
What are the other major factors?
You state that the price is not dropping fast enough. What is your evidence of that?
What are the other major factors?
Range and recharge time are some of the other factors, the vast majority of EVS don’t even have 100 mile range. and charge times of over an hour are unacceptable when you are driving long distances.
You state that the price is not dropping fast enough. What is your evidence of that?
The sticker price of most EVs have not drop significantly and are still significantly more than their comparable ICE counterparts. You want people to flock to EVS, get that price down to a comparable ICE, get that range up to that of a comparable ICE and get the recharge time down to a comparable ICE refill time and then it might happen. Until then, it’ll remain a small niche vehicle that has only managed to get as much market penetration (as little as that is) as it has due to government incentives. When those incentives disappear, so too do the sales numbers
and how many of those where ‘second cars ‘ so merely add to to the number of cars , and how much money did they make not lose on those sells ?
investor , or sucker, cash and goverment hand outs can only last so long.
The automakers can afford to lose a lot of money on the sale of each electric, the CAFE credit they get for each one applies to real cars where actual profit is made.
well, most automarker. I don’t think Tesla makes any “real” cars, just electric “toys”.
John,
“…well, most automaker. I don’t think Tesla makes any “real” cars, just electric “toys”…”
which might be why Tesla isn’t profitable.
I’m in agreement with comments above; if eco-worriers love EVs so much they can jolly well buy them and virtue signal with their own money, not mine (since I am a tax payer).
if eco-worriers love EVs so much they can jolly well buy them and virtue signal with their own money, not mine (since I am a tax payer).
As a fellow taxpayer I’m in 100% agreement with you on that.
Okay, this is amusing.
Since 82K is meaningless without comparison I just attempted to find out how many cars Ford and delivered in the same period.
I typed into Google “Ford car deliveries Q4”, as you do…
The top 8 predictions on what I ‘really’ wanted to search about ALL contained the word Tesla.
Make of that what you will.
Well, when the future arrives, with this great drop in battery prices, and an EV is cheaper to purchase than an equivalent size/featured ICE vehicle, EVs should thrive without subsidies.
I’ll just park this here:
https://driving.ca/auto-news/news/electric-car-sales-soaring-but-canada-still-nowhere-near-goal-set-in-2009
It was hilarious this week listing to talk radio where the host and resident lefty loon went on and ON about how his wasn’t the fault of the experts, no, its OUR fault for not being virtuous and stuff.
Of course the host admitted that HIS reason for not buying electric was…simply aesthetic. He thinks they are ugly.
Remember, when the social scolds speak to us, its never from a stance of equity. They are already better than we are, so do as they say, NOT as they do.
See also: those warning about climate change buying ocean-front property.
Indeed, the hypocrisy from the left would be funny if they weren’t so serious about enforcing their ideas onto everyone else (but never actually following those ideas in their own lives).
SMS – go and drive one
There was never a reason to buy an EV other than virtue signaling
There’s reasons to buy them beyond virtue signaling. Just as there are reasons not to buy them. Each person needs to decide for themselves which side of the ledger has the most/best reasons. I’d guess that, as things currently stand, for most people, the reasons not to buy far outweigh the reasons to buy. (and as incentives disappear, so too do the number of reasons to buy) hence why sales of EV remain a very tiny fraction of the market in the US.
A friend of mine has a Volt. He charges it every day at home and at work. He puts gas into it twice a year when he goes on long trips. Electricity costs one-third that of gas. He’s saving money ….. after receiving a taxpayer incentive (gotta thank those taxpayers!)
Goes to show that the idea of “Saving the Planet is not uppermost in most peoples minds.
MJE
See my post above at 9:09 am.
Our local lefty radio host (at least one of them, and this wasn’t even the CBC!), a guy who is SO politically and environmentally lit that he could, by his own self-righteousness, power a small city) said he hasn’t bought an electric car because, and this is obviously a highly thought out reason: they are too ugly.
Yes, imagine being stranded on a dying planet, and the aliens arrive to save you, and you don’t board because their ship’s livery is off your palate.
As Glenn “Instapundit” Reynolds” says, I’ll believe there is a crisis when those telling us there is a crisis ACT as if there is a crisis.
when aesthetics is more important than saving the planet, you know saving the planet isn’t the real agenda.
“no one really knew just how much until now”
Huh? What about all the other stories about cancelled rebates leading to a collapse in sales?
You are correct, obviously the Canadians know nothing about what goes on in Europe and other areas.
Indeed. A couple of years ago the Hong Kong administration removed the electric car subsidy and Tesla sales fell to zero with other brands to a couple of dozen over several months.
There’s something incongruous about a picture of an electric car being charged while, in the background, a bunch of (7) butane gas radiant heaters are standing there ready to provide heat for people.
Maybe I just have an odd sense of humour!
2 things. Government subsidies and artificially juiced prices at the pump, via pipeline legalities, environmental demands * by Government), healthy dose of sin taxes, and other regulatory add ons. They had to make gas expensive. Fracking in the US killed that , except in CA where they just upped the taxes to hold the line. Then a change of political leadership, and boom… no more subsidies. Heh. Funny how that works.
Greens are really only in it for the ride on other people’s tax dollar and control. Same impulse behind electric buses and monorails. Herd the chaff onto mass transit, whilst we whip around in our Musk-mobile.
No, the greens actually think they’re “saving the environment”. Sincerely.
Provided there is taxpayer funding for what they want to do…
As many where , second cars, once the kickbacks stops the sells where always going to drop.
The irony was even with these kickbacks the buyers came from the monied end anyway so few if any old and bad cars ever got taken off the road.
I’m puzzled by the picture of the Leaf being recharged…the charging device looks to be mobile with its wheels..is it a battery pack? Surely that can’t recharge the car or is is just a publicity photo?
I suspect the latter; if so it’s all a bit dishonest…no high tension wires leading tho the charging device, etc. No coal power station in the distance.
Cold fusion power pack.
That’s in my garage right next to my Flux Capacitor.
And, of course, your car was hover converted 4 years ago (2015, when hover conversions & fusion packs were available), right?
It’s parked on a sidewalk. I’m assuming it’s a demonstration or show.
~¿~
It could be that the car is being discharged!
‘Fermata Energy was founded for the dual purposes of accelerating the adoption of EVs and accelerating the transition to a renewable energy future. Our technology provides EV owners with an additional revenue stream for their vehicles: as energy storage. By allowing EVs to provide power to buildings and stored energy to the grid in addition to receiving it, Fermata hopes to make EVs cost competitive and increase adoption of renewable power.’
https://www.fermataenergy.com/our-company
Yeah, I’m going to buy an EV to serve as a battery for something else. Sort of like the poor hillbilly thing of siphoning gas out of the car to fuel the lawnmower or whatever.
“Dagblameit Leroy! I can’t get to town now because you done siphoned all the gas out of the car to run your durn 4-wheeler!”
re: https://www.fermataenergy.com/
When did this idea originate? I wrote about it in 2009 but do not know when it started or if I originated it.
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/01/10/polar-sea-ice-changes-are-having-a-net-cooling-effect-on-the-climate/#comment-63388
[excerpt]
Storage of electricity is much easier said than done.
One interesting idea for electricity storage is a “super battery”, consisting of many plugged-in electric cars. This should be possible in a decade or two.
Wind power is supposed to work well in conjunction with (excess) hydro power, but I have not seen this clearly demonstrated.
I have studied this subject and in conclusion I am yet not a fan of wind power.
Regards, Allan
Govt saves money, dealers get inventory, remaining buyers get reduced wait.
Sounds like a win-win.
EVs are the future, it’s game over for ICEs. Even if the rest of the world eliminates incentives, China’s move towards EVs will drive the market. https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/technology/exclusive–volkswagen–china-spearhead-us-300-billion-global-drive-to-electrify-cars-11105650
Yes Chris, but only because Governments are Banning FF cars.
Partly agree with you Chris, but the biggest obstacle, IMO, is price. A new Leaf is about £25,000, reducing to about £10-11000 after 4years. For that sort of money you can get a new Dacia or Kia, with fewer range or recharging restrictions.
It needs a Henry Ford or William Morris to come along and provide a car for the family on average income.
Is that conceivable? Do we have to wait for the Chinese to do it?
Surely marketing is about providing a service or product that people need or want at a competitive market price. Propping up an uncompetitive, restricted-use product for the few at the expense of the many (taxpayers) is not a lasting proposition.
Battery prices came down by 50% in the last 3 years. And they are continuing to decline. The crossover point will occur in the next 5 years, beyond which EVs will be cheaper than ICEs for most consumer transportation requirements.
If batteries are getting so cheap, why aren’t EVs? Leaf MSRP $30k vs Versa Note MSRP $16k. Similar style and size, both made by Nissan…
“And they are continuing to decline.”
Didn’t one of the battery makers raise its prices 10% recently? Isn’t there a growing demand for batteries, and a limited supply (due to cobalt limitations), which would tend to drive prices up? Isn’t any recent price decline very small?
Didn’t one of the battery makers raise its prices 10% recently? Isn’t there a growing demand for batteries, and a limited supply (due to cobalt limitations), which would tend to drive prices up? Isn’t any recent price decline very small?
You are probably thinking of LG Chem
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/10/22/audi-hit-with-10-price-increase-on-lg-batteries-due-to-high-demand/
And the (bulk) price of solar panels has also fallen dramatically over the last 15 years, and yet the cost to have a residential solar system installed is still astronomical ($30K+), and solar power for Ontario is still many X higher than baseload from natural gas or nuclear.
The point is that an aggregate/bulk price index does not necessarily correspond to a similar price reduction in the required (end point) system.
Nissan just did it. The VW of electrics.
Remember that the companies are selling electrics at a loss. They make up the difference by using the CAFE credit to allow them to sell real cars which make all of the profit.
I agree that in the future EVs will be the de facto power plant. I don’t agree that it’s all over for internal combustion engines. Battery tech still has a long way to come before they exceed the power needed for use on, say, farms, construction, backcountry living, and other industries relying on diesel.
Yes, an electric truck does indeed have more power but it’s range on a single charge falls short of an ICE.
And, being a truck owner myself, the battery life is the only thing that would prevent me from buying and replacing my existing ICE truck with an electric truck.
Once battery tech reaches the point where I don’t need to recharge it but once a week even after extended and hard use… take my money.
Battery progress is coming in leaps and bounds. Not just price/kW, but also density. The energy cost of an EV is less than 1/2 that for an ICE. It will happen soon enough in the other segments you mentioned.
EVs still run on (mostly) coal and gas. Costs will increase due to state and federal governments taxing EV’s for road use, and increasing unreliable grid power sources that must be backed up by dispatachable power.
“EVs still run on (mostly) coal and gas.” So what? EVs are far more efficient than gas in terms of energy efficiency to the wheel.
Whe you say less than half do you mean with tax or without?
This is the major point. EVs will only be cheaper until the Government wants to replace the disappearing FF taxes, especially in Europe where taxes represent about 60% of the cost of fuel.
They are barely cheaper to run now without taxes.
energy costs don’t mean much if it’s not useful/convenient energy. If I have to charge up the EV every time I drive one-way to a destination that I could make multiple trips to on a full tank in an ICE (or worse yet, have to charge up before I’ve even reached my destination), then it won’t be worth it no matter how much cheaper the energy costs. EVs need a range compatible with that of their ICE counterparts before they have a hope of replacing them. particularly for non-city drivers.
If I have to wait hours to fully charge up my EV when I can fill the tank of an ICE in mere minutes (particularly when on the road or for when home doesn’t have a easy charge solution IE street parking, so don’t have the option of plugging in over night from the home outlet). that cheaper energy cost is too expensive in my valuable time. fully charging needs to be comparable to filling the tank for them to have a hope of replacing ICE vehicles.
I’ve been hearing about how “battery progress is coming in leaps and bounds” for well over a decade now. The 3rd generation Prius (2009) was supposed to have twice the power AND mileage over the 2nd generation. It didn’t happen then, and it didn’t happen with the 4th generation (2015).
And I’m willing to bet it won’t happen whenever the 5th generation comes out either.
It’s amazing how, for years “progress is coming in leaps and bounds” without that progress actually materializing in any end products.
Yes, every year, there is a feel good story about those earnest engineering students who have built a car that runs on solar power.
Every year.
Not one of the stories goes into into detail about how much progresses was made, but that would ruin The Narrative that we have to do SOMETHING.
Chris, re “leaps and bounds.”
It is not unusual for me to put 400 to 500 km on my vehicle for a day trip to the mountains for skiing or hiking. There are no recharging stations there. Visiting friends and family takes me along mountain roads with up to 150 km between services; the roads are sometimes closed for hours for avalanche control. At -25 C I expect EV owners would be asking to sit in my nice, warm diesel truck. I don’t see hundreds of recharging stations showing up along highways in national parks any time soon. Pulling my camping trailer 1000 km in a single day is not an unusual occurrence.
ICEs are dead only if the government succeeds in destroying the lifestyle that i have worked 40 years to achieve. The destruction of my lifestyle (and that of many other like me) may well be the goal of many climate alarmists, but it will have no measurable impact on the earth’s climate.
Hybrids are not EVs. The vast majority of electrified cars will be hybrids, which are still ICE cars to some degree.
Keep telling yourself that. I’m sure it helps you to sleep at night.
Chris I agree. Price is dropping, range going up and they are a compelling drive (high torque at standstill and no gearchanges).
Regarding the picture in the article:
Exif tag Description:
Working with Fermata Energy, a vehicle-to-grid systems company, Nissan North America is launching a new pilot program under the Nissan Energy Share initiative, which leverages bi‑directional EV charging technology to partially power its North American headquarters in Franklin, TN, and its design center in San Diego, CA.
So the car is charging the building?
It does appear so -strange concept. So the employees charge at home, come to the office and discharge into the grid and hope they have enough juice to come home.
Cannot see how this could be a genius concept, but I am not an economist, just a simple B.Sc. EE.
“There is little question that rebates are essential to selling EVs, but no one really knew just how much until now.”
I’ve got news, you still don’t know. No country offers a subsidy as large as $14,000, and no EV has a sticker price as low as the Leaf. Point 1 : Leaf sales have shown a sharp decline over the past year because competitors like the Chevy Bolt have arrived with driving ranges far greater. Point 2 : As the cheapest EV available, the Leaf would be the hardest hit by any price increase, especially when that increase amounts to almost half the price of the car . In the U.S. the Leaf no longer has the $7500 tax credit, but still has a $3750 credit.
kent, I’m disappointed. You failed to mention molten salt reactors even once in that post. You’re slipping.
Under current conditions, EV’s will work as long as there are relatively few of them, and huge government subsidies are in place to cushion the high purchase price.
However, I suggest that few places in the world have an electric grid that can sustain many more EV’s. Where is all this new electricity going to come from? How many more power plants will be needed? Will power transmission systems (high voltage) and local distribution systems (low voltage) need to be increased, or even completely rebuilt? I think the answer is yes. Has this been included in the cost of EV’s? No.
Most people think that electricity comes from a plug in the wall – it’s actually more complicated than that. There are generation, transmission, and distribution systems before the power gets to your house.
Politicians and green activists cannot just wave their magic wands and create energy out of thin air – that only happens in their overheated imaginations.
“Energy can neither be created nor destroyed.”
Let’s also consider that many states in the U.S. have laws against turning off someone’s electricity during winter even if they don’t pay their bill. Keeping in mind that most electric bills are progressive in nature so that the price goes up per Kw hour the more you use, we can surmise that there will be abuse of this as people finally realize their gas “savings” are just transferred into a higher electric bill.
Allan, this would be a great article topic. BC has a lot of hydro electric power so the virtue signalers can all move there. Except that they are also constantly lobbying to blow up the dams to save the snail darters etc. Consistency and logic are not their strong points.
Add to that the utter stupidity of EVs in Canada where the climate ensures snowy winters. Battery efficiency, and thus range, drops precipitously in the cold. And the cabin heater has to use electric coils, not as effective as the ICE system at sub-zero temps and a further reduction in range.
It is dangerous to charge a cold Li-Ion battery, the chance of forming internal crystals increases and you may be creating an explosive device.
Imagine running out of charge in a blizzard. At least with the ICE you can flag down a passing driver and use a gas can to restore your vehicle to operational status. The EV is stuck there till spring or in need of a tow.
EVs are a joke everywhere except downtown Sunnyvale, where the sun shines all year and the streets are lined with chargers.
Hi Bruce,
I heard or read somewhere that if BC were to fully convert to EV cars, it would need 12 more Bennett Dam equivalents of electric power. BC does not have nearly that much hydro potential, imo.
If anyone can provide that reference, it would be appreciated.
Best, Allan
“Energy can neither be created nor destroyed.”
Oh! those Laws of Thermodynamics.. time to repeal and replace them.
Cheers
Mike
Look at the EV sales and use in Norway. A city like Oslo has no problem powering or charging many EVs. (I gather from a resident that parking garage and curbside charging is readily available for those who can’t park off road)
Norway has an excess of hydro power – highly unusual.
oddly there a bad exmaple because the rich worked out having paid 150,000 plus for their Tesla they could then use bus lanes which caused issues for public transport , while they could access parking etc for free rather than have to pay like the poor folk who not afford anywhere there that type of money. Of course the same rich have boats with often with a very nice par of outboards, and others cars for ‘fun ‘ so in the end there was virtual no environmental improvement ,and lots of peed off people that the already privileged where getting more privileges .
Hear, hear Allan.
Ontario has another problem just over the horizon, as outlined in the newsletter with our last hydro bill:
Nuclear provides 60% of Ontario electricity and we currently have an hourly small surplus which is sold to neighbouring USA states.
In 2022 Pickering, the oldest Nuclear plant, is set to be retired after 50 years of generating electricity (with regular costly replacement of zirconium boiler tubes that have caused 45% of our rise to highest rates in North America) and we will then have a shortfall.
(Let’s continue to ignore the modest Nuclear waste problem – no method or location to store radioactive boiler tubes & concrete [10,000 years] and spent fuel [300,000 years] after generating electricity for a scant 50 years.)
In addition, taxes on petroleum pay for our apparently-free roads. How will governments pay for roads after EVs reach just 10%? Even Trudeau’s new CarbonTax wouldn’t help that.
On the other hand, Québec & BC have surplus Hydro generation which need more markets. Maybe EVs will help them make the money math work…?
“Québec & BC have surplus Hydro generation ”
According to the UN, BC might not have as much surplus as it thinks:
https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/un-committee-says-b-c-s-site-c-dam-may-break-international-deals
Wonder how SockBoy Zoolander Junior will handle this particular battle of the righteous between green energy and indigenous peoples.
I’ll get the popcorn, and keep buying natural gas futures…
However, I suggest that few places in the world have an electric grid that can sustain many more EV’s. Where is all this new electricity going to come from? How many more power plants will be needed? Will power transmission systems (high voltage) and local distribution systems (low voltage) need to be increased, or even completely rebuilt? I think the answer is yes.
Actually utility companies quite like the idea of EVs because the expectation is that a lot of charging will take place at night thus spreading their load more evenly. That’s why the rate for electricity at night is cheaper than during the day. In the UK they used to have special meters for storage heaters which were connected at night, and were provided with cheaper electricity usually a third of the price.
Do you really believe that the night rate will stay lower when there are millions of cars recharging? My bet is that the night rate will eventually be higher.
Here in Ontario, Canada, we are warned to run our big appliances (washers and dryers, dish washers, etc.) at off-peak times, and asked to turn down our air conditioners in summer.
Can’t wait for tens of thousands of EV getting plugged in at 6PM every night…
If the subsidies are from the provinces, is there anything to stop an Ontario resident crossing a province boundary and buying a Nissan Leaf subsidised by another province?
They’d likely need a Québec address, registration & insurance. Then they could ‘move’ to Ontario.
BiLLP: The subsidy is paid in the form of a tax rebate. Quebec collects its own income tax.
Meanwhile, U.S. car manufacturers are continuing to build gasoline-powered vehicles with up to 700 horsepower, right off the factory floor.
I suppose if other nations adopt electric vehicles on a large scale, that will leave more gasoline for Americans to burn. 🙂
I see where the price of gasoline has declined by about 60 cents per gallon. If the price were to stay at that level for a year, it would increase U.S. GDP by about 3/4 of a percent. Gasoline is $1.85 a gallon here where I live.
Most streets in London have no offstreet or dedicated parking -sometimes you have to walk up to a quarter of a mile to your home because all the parking space are occupied and most people dont have a parking space at work either. With lots of electric vehicles it would be difficult to park on a recharging parking spot. So how are the majority of the working population going to keep their cars charged! And of course thats if the city grid can actually supply the required amount of electricity. On top of that the carbon footprint of an electric car is higher than a fossil fuel car because of the losses in power generation, transmission to the car and efficiency of the electric motor itself. Meaning increased pollution or a massive increase in wind farms, nuclear and solar – all outside the metropolitan area. Add on to that the pollution potential for depleted batteries.
We would end up with a greater number of virtue signalling city dwellers driving EVs, paid for by those that would be unable to use one because of affordability of parking and also at the expense of those living in the countryside that would be required to put more land aside to power the city grid with ‘renewable’ energy (or fossil fuel/nuclear power stations) whilst being unable to use ev technology because of the countrysides impracticality and distance. All this at a cost to the environment because an EV uses more source energy than a fossil fuelled car.
EVs in the city would delight policy makers because they would always be provided with powered parking slots and of course, due to the taxation, it is much cheaper to power your vehicle with electricity rather than fossil fuel.
The big ask is when the majority of the population are forced into EVs where is the taxation revenue going to come from to maintain the road network. Eventually road tax on EVs will have to be massively increased as increasing the price of electricity would severely disadvantage the not so well off and industry. Its a no brainer until the road network itself is electrified – can you even start to imagine the cost of that.
“The big ask is when the majority of the population are forced into EVs where is the taxation revenue going to come from to maintain the road network”
They solution will be black boxes in your vehicle to record your driving miles. You will have to report to the Commissar of Highways for an annual download of your data and pay the appropriate taxes.
Take a look at Oslo, with its large EV population… no such problems
Yes, but… Here is an extract from https://www.lifeinnorway.net/electric-cars/
The reason isn’t because Norwegians care more about the environment than anyone else. The reason is, of course, money. Essentially, Norwegians have been financially incentivised by their government to buy electric cars over the previous decade, at a cost to the state of tens of thousands of kroner per car.
Add to that the fact that it’s a very small country which is mostly stretched along the coastline and whose easy access to hydro power serves a small population of just over 5 million, and whose largest city, Oslo, is 634,000, or just over a million if you include Akershus and Buskerud.
Hit the nail on the head. Norway has cheap hydropower to use for EVs. That means they can export more oil to the rest of the world, increasing revenues. Over one-third of their export is oil, and it is 1/8 th of their GDP.
The LAST thing Norway wants to see is the world powered without using ff. Their entire social structure would collapse.
Griff – have you been to Oslo, I have and driven around town? They have lots of space, easy access to parking (comparatively anyway), cheap electricity and an oversupply of renewables(Hydro). There are few motorways and not much incentive to drive long distances. They have nowhere near the problems of a big closely packed conurbation like London. If you feel the need to reply to my post at least try and use an example which answers the questions my post poses. London will not be able to gear up to universal EVs with the infrastructure it presently has. Because of necessity those that need cars will have to pay to keep ICEs as the choice of EV will not be practical
Leafs are falling all around
It’s time I was on my way
Since the Ford government in July ended rebates of up to $14,000 and the final recipients were registered Sept. 10, sales of the Nissan Leaf have all but collapsed
That’s what FORD wanted. Put a car company in power and they’ll screw the competition. Nissan better run a better campaign for government next time /sarc
Seriously though, Is anyone really surprised that you take away the “rebate” incentives and people stop buying those overpriced toys?
…Leafs are falling all around..
Ah! the falling leaf, a tricky aerobatic manoeuvre, requires excellent stick and rudder coordination.
Cheers
Mike
Georgia (USA) used to have a $5K tax credit.
When it disappeared, so did 80% of sales.
https://www.utilitydive.com/news/georgia-electric-vehicle-sales-shrink-80-in-wake-of-tax-credit-repeal/434092/
How much has the temperature risen in Ontario and fallen in Quebec as a result? Any peer reviewed tree rings out on this yet?
Electric cars are not shouldering their share of the cost of highways now being paid by the tax on fuel.
So let’s invest and build up the EV industry with company bets 50x larger then the Leaf and see what happens. Don’t forget to ask for taxpayer bailouts on the way down.
“Another example is Chevrolet. Last year, it took six months to receive a Bolt, and now it takes eight to 10 weeks. We also have Volt in our inventory, and last year this wasn’t the case.”
Funny. Sales have crashed, and they try to make out like something great has happened. LOOK! We now have the EVs right here & available (because nobody is buying them).
I can think of advantages for electric cars such as fewer replacement parts and oil changes. But they compete best as golf carts and even then, gas carts still have their advantages and are used on many courses.
I’ve noticed one thing above all others. EV fans want to kill the internal combustion engine prematurely and by any means necessary just to prove they’re (the EV fans) superior. Meanwhile, no way do I undertake a drive from Illinois to my sister’s house in New Mexico at Christmas in a Leaf or a Tesla. Especially when I have a 250,000 + mile Tahoe that is more than up to the task of a comfortable, dependable drive that’s been paid for 10 years.
I’m surprised they sold any. If you were in the market for one, and waited until a $14k rebate ended, shame on you. All the demand was pushed forward. I know the demand won’t return to prior levels, but this quarter would be especially slow.
Hong Kong had a similar experience of close to zero sales over a year ago….
Today EVs are niche vehicles and nothing more. The fact that buyers have to be bribed is telling. Saying “battery pricing is coming down” means nothing until the cars are affordable by the masses if you expect more than the few percent of adoption we have today after a decade since introduction. The only reason more manufacturers are building them is “me too” and they’re easy to cobble together and inexpensive except for the battery. Norway has the ideal environment (except for the cold)….. all trips are short, abundant hydro power, and relatively small areas to upgrade to a car charging grid. For their niche EVs are ideal transportation and superior to ICE vehicles. The question is how big is that niche? I say small and it will remain that way until we run out of oil.
We bought a Ford C-Max hybrid just over two years ago, pretty happy with it. Mostly highway driving near Toronto, in town driving IN Toronto, and about once a month outside of Toronto, particularly north. When you’re sitting in traffic, love to see that EV light come on, and with cruise control, you can easily hit 120 k/ph with it on (however briefly).
Lets just say on those longer trips, I’m very, very glad for the internal combustion engine on board that charges the battery. Last Christmas our drive was through a blizzard for 4 hours. When you’re driving with white knuckles through a white-out anyway, you don’t want to see that charge bar keep going down.
We have a neighbour (incredibly lefty, but decent sort anyway, although she has no idea of any of my rather sacrilegious thoughts concerning her core beliefs…) who bought a Leaf. She has a place near our place two hours north of Toronto…but the closes charging station to it is about 45 minutes drive away.
Needless to say, I bet she’s glad her place isn’t winterized. Oh, and I can’t wait for the inevitable dust-up about the charge chord across the sidewalk…
Sales fell sharply after incentives dropped in 2 or 3 other locations besides Hong Kong. One was Dubai, I think. Another was the U.S. state of Georgia.
I find the original article has too few specific numbers on sales and trends to understand what is actually happening. Subsidies ended in just Quebec? Then I’d like to see comparable sales for all affected EVs in Quebec for the same month(s) in prior years.
We also need to see all EV sales reported in standard units of Middletons. The Middleton unit normalizes vehicle sales to the percentage of Ford F-150 sales for the same period :-).
It should be no surprise that price affects purchase decisions. The key question is whether unsubsidized sales will sustain continued development and manufacture of new EVs. From the information in the original article I have no clue.
Canada is a more difficult market for EVs than the US — longer and colder winters hit one of the weaknesses of current battery technology.
“…I find the original article has too few specific numbers on sales and trends to understand what is actually happening. Subsidies ended in just Quebec? Then I’d like to see comparable sales for all affected EVs in Quebec for the same month(s) in prior years…”
Good point. The August demand was probably artificially inflated as buyers rushed to get under the wire for the $14k rebate.
Climate models show falling leaf sales directly correlated to fall in Ontario.
Climate experts discount easy money subsidies as insignificant compared to spelling.
Another wonder with EVs…
BMW states a charge rate of 3-4 miles per hour for their i3 (current range is around 153 miles without a gas-powered range extender…which can extend the range to 200 miles but reduces the EV range because of added weight), which means it could be 50+ hours to charge from empty!
A dedicated 240V option would allow a full charge overnight, but that isn’t a viable option for some people (and has an associated expense for those that do).
Well I know I knew.
When it comes to counting money in your bank account, even politicians suddenly become surprisingly numerate.
The problem with batteries is the chemistry limited energy density is relatively low. Tesla is already close to the theoretical max. Yet 50litre of gas is the equivalent to a 2T barrtery. Ugh! High energy density far more useful. How about a 1gram fission pill?
Battery maintenance on EVs is equivalent to all the maintenance of ICE vehicles all rolled into one.
Overcharging is bad. Deep discharging is very bad. Optimum life, from what I have read, seems to be maintaining a charge of about 50%. So if you try to get max miles out of a charge, you will pay the price for early battery failure.
I am perhaps one of the few here who is a perfect matched (up to a significant point) for an EV. I live in a more temperate climate (just north of Atlanta), in the ‘burbs with a garage, and retired, driving only 5000 miles a year, or so. I might drive as much as a hundred miles in a day, but that’s rare.
My concern? I travel. I could be gone for up to a month. Ever hear of ‘vampire losses’ wrt EVs?
Unless I left it plugged in (forget about leaving it parked at the airport), I would come home to a deeply discharged battery. But leave a Li-ion battery plugged in and unattended for a month? I don’t think so!
When you start looking at all the people who would be better served by an ICE vehicle, there really isn’t much of a market for EVs.
My friend’s wife has had an EV for about a year and a half in very similar circumstances, uses it for commuting to work. Charges in their garage at night, absolutely loves it. They have been away for up to two weeks without problems. One thought would be if one goes away wouldn’t it be possible to have the charger automatically switched on periodically?
If one is away, presumably they went away in their car, so why would they need the charger to automatically switch on periodically when the car isn’t there to be charged? what am I missing?
“if one is away, presumably they went away in their car,”
?
You’ve never flown before?
Some people leave their cars at the airport and pick them up when they get back. But regardless, if you aren’t using it for a long stretch of time, why would you want to waste electricity periodically charging it only to have it sit there discharging between recharges. Better to just recharge it when you get back.
But regardless, if you aren’t using it for a long stretch of time, why would you want to waste electricity periodically charging it only to have it sit there discharging between recharges. Better to just recharge it when you get back.
So what problem did you have when you raised the issue?
I would come home to a deeply discharged battery.
If there is an issue with lifetime arising from running the battery flat then an occasional partial charge would be good.
What do you do when you leave your car behind for a month, surely you don’t leave it parked at the airport? Normal recommendations are to leave it in a garage, change the oil, top off the fuel tank, add a fuel stabilizer, either get some one to drive the car for a few minutes every two weeks or disconnect the -ve battery cable or trickle charge the battery, don’t engage the parking brake.
Phil, pay attention to whom you are talking to. I never raised the issue “I would come home to a deeply discharged battery.” That was jtom.
If deeply discharged batteries are an issue (since I don’t have an EV, they’re not for me), I’d leave the car with friends or family to look after rather than waste electricity (and increasing my electric bill) on wasted charges. They can use the car for local trips (grocery shopping, for example) while I’m away in exchange for making sure the batter isn’t dead when I come home.
What do you do when you leave your car behind for a month,
*I* don’t. Anytime I’ve been gone that long has been a road trip (IE I took my car with me) something that is considerably more inconvenient with a limited range EV.
Nice to know that Quebec – who receives billions in equalization funds from other provinces – are able to subsidize EV’s. Add that to the list of things that the Quebec government provides to their citizens at the expence of others
Plus they massively subsidize the price of electricity which ensures they are a have not Province. And renewable resources like large hydro electricity dams are not supposed to count anyway in the Equalization Formula while Alberta with its vast oil and gas reserves are made to pay even when they have no way to get their oil to market. And then Quebec buys foreign oil from Saudi’s Arabia and blocks a pipeline from Western Canada to the Atlantic. Enough with equalization with spoiled Quebec.
It’s a wonder the rest of Canada doesn’t demand a referendum to kick the lot out of Canada. They want their own country anyway, so let’s not stop them especially when they have been extorting other provinces for decades through this wealth appropriation called Equalization.
“There is no doubt that the consumer for electric was somewhat different … more conscious of the environment, new technology, being ground breakers, etc …..
That is a very interesting way to describe “gullible virtue signalling fools”.
Just wondering what would happen if all these subsidies to wind and solar generating systems, and ethanol factories here in the US, were removed. And then remove the requirements that utilities and gasoline producers must use energy from these “alternative” sources as 10% of their feedstock. Not a chance, but a fella can dream, can’t he?
Without TAXPAYER funded subsides, the “alternative/green” energy scam would all but disappear.
Regarding ethanol, it was necessary to make up for the removal of tetraethyl lead from gasoline which would otherwise reduce the octane rating. The most economical solution was to add oxygenates to the fuel, Bob Dole saw the opportunity to ‘appeal to his base’ and insisted that the source be corn and also got tariffs imposed to prevent the import of cheap foreign ethanol. The most economic oxygenate was MBTE however after a while it became apparent that it was accumulating in soil and so ethanol was used. Good luck if oxygenates are removed from gasoline, either the performance would drop significantly or the price of higher octane gas would skyrocket, beware what you wish for.