By Christopher Monckton of Brenchley
“The time has come,” the Walrus said,
“To talk of many things:
Of shoes and ships and sealing-wax,
Of cabbages and kings,
And why the sea is boiling hot,
And whether pigs have wings.”
Lewis Carroll, Aliciae per speculum transitus
![clip_image002[4] clip_image002[4]](https://wattsupwiththat.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/clip_image0024.jpg)
Dr Mark Freeman (January 4) wrote that the 5% intertemporal discount rate recommended by the Nobel-prizewinning economist William Nordhaus for appraising the net welfare loss or gain arising from investment in measures intended to abate global warming was, if anything, too high. Dr Freeman said he and his colleagues had recently published the results of a survey of almost 200 economists with “expertise in intergenerational social discount rates … to be used by governments when … determining climate change policy”. The survey had concluded that Nordhaus’ rate was too high.
In this reply, I shall begin by explaining what an intertemporal discount rate is and why it is used. The bird-in-the-hand rule states that a dollar in our billfold today is worth more to us at present than a dollar in the sticky pocket of our sticky grandson 100 years hence. To work out how much more that dollar is worth today than the day after tomorrow, one begins by estimating the flow of incomings and outgoings from today until a chosen future date. Next, one purges the figures of inflation, so that all the dollars in the ledger are at today’s prices.
Now comes the discount rate. From experience, we can predict that predicting the future is uncertain. Accordingly, if we want to reassure ourselves that a hefty investment we are thinking of making today is prudent and likely to convey a healthy net welfare gain over the chosen period, we discount the future cashflow at a chosen annual intertemporal discount rate so as to convert it to what is called “present value”. Present value is the discounted sum of the annual net inflows or outflows throughout the term of the proposal.
The higher the discount rate, the more the uncertainty there is and the less likely it is that the calculation will show our investment to be net-profitable. The reason is that the bulk of our proposed investment is upfront, in the form of capital expenditure to build our factory or railroad, while the bulk of our hoped-for reward will arrive only after the factory is delivering its shoes or ships or sealing wax, or after the railroad is carrying passengers or cargo.
As a guide, the minimum commercial overall or “social” discount rate is Nordhaus’ 5% (see Nordhaus 2008; Murphy 2008). The U.S. Office of Management and Budget uses 7%. A submarket overall discount rate appears unduly to favor future generations at the expense of our own: in practice, however, it harms future generations by making the economy in our generation less efficient, greatly reducing the inherited wealth we are able to bequeath to them.
Therefore, since most of the outgoings in a proposed investment will be in or near the present, whatever discount rate we choose will not make much difference to the present value of our proposed enterprise’s cost. It will, however, make a large difference to our income from the distant future. That is why high discount rates reduce the likelihood that our present-value calculation will show our proposed investment to be worthwhile.
The overall or “social” intertemporal discount rate comprises two parts: the utility discount rate and the consumption-growth rate. A typical commercial investment will tend to allocate half the discount rate to the former and half to the latter – say, 2.5% for each half, or 5% in all, which, approximately, is Nordhaus’ discount rate.
However, the Stern review (2006) of the economics of climate change for the then Socialist government in Britain, chose an overall discount rate of just 1.4%. Stern started from the assumption that annual per-capita consumption growth would be depressed by global warming from 2.5-3% to an average of 1.3% over the 21st century.
Stern’s utility discount rate (also known as the pure rate-of-time preference), which describes a lower weight on the future simply because it is the future, was only 0.1%. The astonishing pretext for this absurdly low utility discount rate was not explicitly stated in the review itself, but was subsequently revealed in Dietz+ (2007), of which Stern was a co-author. Laughably, Stern had assumed a 10% probability that global warming would end the world by 2100.
Garnaut (2008), in his me-too economic report for the then Socialist government in Australia, adopted an overall discount rate similar to that of Stern. Many other economists have done likewise, as Dr Freeman points out. All these me-too economists choosing zero or near-zero utility discount rates and consequently submarket overall discount rates are, in effect, assuming that global warming is likely to destroy the world.
Which raises the questions that should always be asked by anyone proposing an intertemporal investment: How much will the proposed investment cost upfront, and what return will I eventually get for my money?
A small child entering a candy store with a handful of coins has the rationality to ask: “How many candy-canes can I buy with this, Mister?” How much global warming that will otherwise eventuate will any present or proposed abatement measure – however piously intended – actually abate, and at what unit cost?
The “integrated assessment models” used by economists in attempting to justify excessive diversion of taxpayers’ and fuel-users’ money towards attempts to make global warming go away are incapable of answering the candy-cane question. Most economists do not know enough climate science to calculate how much global warming a given mitigation measure will abate, and most climate scientists do not know enough economics to do the calculation for themselves.
Governments, panicked by shrieking, lavishly-funded environmental-fanatic lobby groups, do not trouble to ask the candy-cane question. The French Government did not ask the candy-cane question when in 2018 it proposed to inflict additional taxes amounting to $3 billion a year on gasoline and diesel.
Had M Macron asked that preliminary question, without which – as will become apparent – there is simply no point in fussing about the intertemporal discount rate, the costed answer would have revealed to him the egregious futility of his proposal. As the costed French example will amply demonstrate, no policy to mitigate global warming by taxing, trading, regulating or reducing emissions, however piously intended, is at all likely to be cost-effective solely on grounds of the expected net welfare gain from that mitigation.
The French Government had proposed to increase gasoline tax by 0.029 euros per litre and diesel tax by 0.065 euros per litre from January 2019. France uses 1.6 million barrels a day of oil (IEA). Each barrel yields ~31 U.S. gallons of fuel, of which 20 gallons are gasoline and 11 gallons are diesel (IEA). At 3.7854 litres per U.S. gallon, the product of the 44.243 billion litres annual gasoline consumption in France and the 0.029 euros per litre tax increase is 1.283 billion euros a year. The product of the 24.334 billion litres annual diesel consumption and the 0.065 euros per litre tax increase is 1.582 billion euros a year. Total additional revenue – and thus the total welfare loss occasioned to the citizenry by the Government’s proposal – would thus have been 2.865 billion euros a year.
Mean fuel tax increase is 0.042 euros per litre, or 3% of the 1.46 euros per litre mean retail price of gasoline or diesel in France prevalent at the time of the protests of winter 2018.
Fuel is a Giffen-good: demand is inelastic in the face of price increases. Raising its cost by 3% does not cut consumption by 3%. Here, 1% is optimistically assumed. Since France’s CO2 emissions from gas and diesel are ~200 million tonnes per year (International Energy Agency; worlddata.info), the proposed tax increase might cut global CO2 emissions by 2 million tonnes a year, or 0.006% of global CO2 emissions of 32.5 billion tonnes a year (IEA).
Importantly, since the mean atmospheric residence time of CO2 is ~125 yr (IPCC 2013), abatement only affects the 3 parts per million by volume per year (NOAA 2018) business-as-usual perturbation in concentration, of which 0.006% is 0.00018 parts per million by volume per year.
Radiative forcing from doubled CO2 concentration, the mean of the midrange estimates in 15 CMIP5 ensemble members (Andrews et al. 2012), is 3.346 W m^(-2). Since reference sensitivity to CO2 is an approximately logarithmic function of the proportionate change in concentration, the coefficient in the CO2 forcing function is 3.346/ln(2), or 4.83.
Reference sensitivity to doubled CO2, before allowing for temperature feedback, is the product of the CO2 forcing and the Planck sensitivity parameter, currently 0.3 C° W^(-1) m^2 (Schlesinger 1985): i.e., 0.3 x 3.346=1 C°. Since CMIP5 predicted midrange equilibrium sensitivity to doubled CO2 is 3.4 C° (Andrews 2012), the implicit midrange transfer function that allows for the operation of temperature feedback is the ratio of equilibrium to reference sensitivity: namely, 3.4 C° / 1 C°, or 3.4.
Since expected business-as-usual global CO2 concentration (NOAA 2018) at end 2019 will be 413 ppmv, the expected welfare benefit in global warming abated by the proposed French fuel tax increase would be 3.4 x 0.3 x 4.83 ln[413/(413-0.00018)], or 0.000002 C°.
The direct welfare loss arising from any strategy to mitigate global warming by abating emissions of greenhouse gases is the cost to taxpayers and consumers of fuel and power. Opportunity losses are additional. The direct welfare benefit of any such policy is the value of the global warming abated. Indirect benefits are likewise excluded here, brevitatis causa.
The ratio of the direct welfare benefit of a mitigation strategy to the warming abated by the strategy is the strategy’s unit abatement cost per Kelvin abated. Derivation of the unit abatement cost allows direct comparison to establish which – if any – of competing mitigation strategies is cost-effective.
The unit abatement cost of the French proposal is the cost of abating 1 K global warming by strategies whose benefit/cost ratios are that of the proposal: namely, the ratio of 2.865 billion euros per year to 0.000002 K, or 1.4 quadrillion euros per Kelvin abated.
The cost of abating all of the 4.2 K global warming predicted for this century on the RCP 8.5 scenario (IPCC 2013, fig. 1.25) would thus be 1.4 x 4.2=6 quadrillion euros. At 7.5 billion global population, the annual per-capita abatement cost would be 8000 euros, or approaching 90% of the 8950 euros global mean annual per-capita income in 2016 (World Bank).
The French example, by no means untypical in its high cost and low effectiveness, illustrates the principal reasons why no mitigation strategy is at all likely to deliver a net welfare benefit solely on grounds of global-warming abatement. The cost is absurdly high, but the quantum of business-as-usual CO2 emission and concentration and hence of global warming abated in return for the expenditure is necessarily very low – and low not only by comparison with the high cost but also in itself.
The above calculation assumes that, per impossibile, the midrange rate of global warming currently predicted by climate models is correct. Since that warming rate, owing to the error of physics on which it is based, is approximately thrice the legitimate expectation, the true expected welfare benefit in the shape of global warming abated by the proposed French fuel tax increase would be 1.3 x 0.3 x 4.827 ln[413/(413-0.00018)], or 0.0000008 C°. Then the cost of abating 1 K global warming by measures of equivalent cost-ineffectiveness would be the ratio of 2.865 billion euros per year to 0.0000008 C°, or 3.6 quadrillion euros.
We have answered the candy-cane question that the French Government, like nearly all governments worldwide, does not take the trouble to ask. Answering that question reveals at once the futility of wielding intertemporal discount rates in the vain hope of providing a rational economic justification for measures to make global warming go away. For the above calculation assumes a zero discount rate. Any positive intertemporal discount rate will have the effect of reducing whatever minuscule net welfare gain might be conceived to have arisen from forestalling 0.0000008 C° of global warming in return for the very substantial welfare loss in the cost of the proposed measure.
The “Democrats” in Congress have begun to realize that any “climate action” against the small, harmless and net-beneficial anthropogenic warming that is likely to continue for the next century or two is unjustifiably expensive and egregiously ineffective. Their original ambition to prevent the funding of the Republican party by the coal-mining and coal-burning industries, formerly among the Republicans’ biggest donors, has already been achieved. Now they are proposing a “new green deal” to finish off the free market altogether.
Their proposed “fee-and-dividend” scam, which, like others of its kind, is being presented as a “cost-free” or “no-regrets” measure, involves a large and annually-increasing additional tax levied upon fossil-fuel corporations until they go bust. This is Mr Obama’s “war on coal” on steroids. But the State will not retain the money it has thus grabbed from the corporations. Instead, the money will be divided up among the populace in the form of a cash dividend. Millions of jobs will be created in “renewable” energy, just like that. There will be motherhood and apple pie all round, with extra cream and jam and chocolate sprinkles.
Here are just some of the costs of the “Democrats’” “cost-free” fee-and-dividend scam. Affordable, reliable, continuous, base-load, high-density, low-environmental-impact energy will be replaced by costly, unreliable, intermittent, part-time, low-density, high-environmental-impact windmills, solar farms and suchlike wondrous boondoggles. The lights will go out all over the nation. Millions of jobs will be destroyed. Tens of millions will starve (historically, this is the usual consequence of extreme Socialism).
After all, it’s working elsewhere in the world. Just look at the Third World, which is largely unelectrified. Chiefly owing to lack of access to electricity, mean life expectancy in the Third World is 60 years. In the electrified West, it is 80 years. Some 1.2 billion people – a sixth of the global population – have no access to electricity – “access” being defined, I kid you not, as the ability to turn on a single 60-Watt bulb for four hours a day (IEA).
Some 4.5 million people a year die in some-filed huts because they have no electricity to cook with. Another half million, all of them women, die in childbirth for lack of electricity. Half a million neonates ditto. Several million more die each year because they cannot get treatment in a hospital with electricity, or because they cannot keep food or drugs refrigerated, or because there is no electricity to pump clean water to them or drive sewage-disposal plants, or because they cannot run air-conditioning by day or heating by night.

Yet the World Bank and the IMF will no longer lend to third-world countries for digging coal or building coal-fired power stations, and from next year there will be no lending to poor countries for oil and gas extraction either. The Dark Continent will stay Dark.


I end, as I began, by looking briefly at the science. If Napoleon had bothered to stick his nose outside the Elysee Palace and check in with his totalitarian comrades at the European Commission in Brussels, the unelected Kommissars would have told him that, not so long ago, they commissioned some research to find out just how many lives would be lost in Europe if global warming were to continue unchecked.
To their horror, they found that the more global warming happened the more lives would be saved. For, as every schoolboy knows, it is colder weather, not warmer weather, that is the big killer. Warmer weather saves lives.
There is a horrifying recent example from my own country of what happens when electricity prices are hiked so much that poorer families can’t afford to turn on the heater. There was a brief cold snap last winter, and 25,000 more excess winter deaths than usual resulted, chiefly because those who are less well-off can no longer afford electrical power or heating oil because global-warming policies have made these essential commodities six times costlier than they would be if the free market had been allowed to work without governmental interference. When the gilets jaunes took to the streets in France, set fires and threw cobblestones, they had very good reason to complain at their government’s policy.
As for the discussion of discount rates, it is pointless unless and until one has first asked and credibly answered the candy-cane question. Slowly, infinitely slowly, my team is convincing the few open-minded governments in the world that they should ask that question and replace the anti-scientific, uneconomic hysteria of current intergovernmental climate policy with a rational economic approach.
In the long run, the use of reason will triumph against the current epidemic of irrationality. But how many more tens of millions must die in third-world countries, and increasingly in Western countries too, before common sense and common humanity prevail?
Christopher M.
Your review of discounting is thorough. However, the overall level of interest rates change all of the time.
Within this, there is a basic pattern for the course of interest rates through a great financial mania. AKA Bubble.
The path is best followed through real rates in the senior market with the senior currency.
Used to be London and sterling, now it is NYC and the dollar.
Real interest rates are calculated by taking the difference between the nominal rate and the rate of CPI inflation.
This is where it gets fascinating.
Real long rates have declined through all five of the great bubbles form the first in 1720 to the one in 1929.
Sometimes they went negative as the boom climaxed. Sometimes they just went down to zero.
As with the bubble that completed in 2018.
All of the examples were followed by massive credit contractions as all, repeat all, asset prices get marked down in price.
Deflation, and this when financial history has become excrutiating.
Reviewing all five such severe deflations, the typical increase in real long-dated interest rates has been 12, no typo, percentage points. In bond desk jargon that has traders throwing up into the waste paper bins.
It will mess up assumptions about the discount rate.
Soaring real rates has been Mother Nature’s way of ending the abuse of credit markets during a bubble.
Market forces will end the authoritarian experiment in power delivery.
http://www.bobhoye.com
In response to Mr Hoye, it is important to appreciate that, once the cashflow has been purged of inflation and is a real-terms cashflow, there is little connection between the intertemporal discount rate and the interest rate.
To take an obvious example of the disconnect, at present interest rates are very low, chiefly because governments and central banks are intervening to keep them low not so much for the sake of the people as for the sake of keeping down the cost of servicing the ballooning government debt in most Western countries.
Such interferences with the free-market interest rate are a flagrant and costly market distortion, penalizing the thrifty without benefiting the profligate.
The intertemporal discount rate, however, is not an interest rate, and has very little connection with the interest rate. It reflects partly the expected growth in consumption and partly the fact that money is worth less to us the later we receive it. Commercial entities use the discount rate as a means to decide whether an investment is worthwhile, and they can set the discount rate in such a way as to reflect the risks to the anticipated future income stream.
Tampering with the market discount rate is no less economically damaging than tampering with the interest rate. Both are very blunt instruments. In reality, one does not need to bring discount rates into the climate question at all, because the cost of mitigation exceeds that of adaptation by one or two orders of magnitude.
In reality, one CANNOT reasonably bring discount rates into the climate question at all, because
… for projects at such scale, the assumed discount rate is a variable internal to the system, and can (generally) be termed as the self fulfilling prophesy rate of return.
(and any (non-biased) idiot can see, just by looking, that the cost of mitigation exceeds that of adaptation by one or two orders of magnitude.)
“There is a horrifying recent example from my own country of what happens when electricity prices are hiked so much that poorer families can’t afford to turn on the heater. There was a brief cold snap last winter, and 25,000 more excess winter deaths than usual resulted, chiefly because those who are less well-off can no longer afford electrical power or heating oil because global-warming policies have made these essential commodities six times costlier than they would be if the free market had been allowed to work without governmental interference. ”
However Mr. Monckton you are forgetting that the ELITES wish this to happen. THEY DON”T CARE about the deaths because that is their aim.
Lord Monkton – Not to high jack your thread, I was curious about how someone, specifically yourself would punch holes in the following article on Forbes:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2019/01/02/the-simplest-explanation-of-global-warming-ever/amp/
Their “simplicity” doesn’t bother me so much as it seems a summary of appeals to authority and expects the reader to absorb the information without pause for critical thinking.
One point in particular is the following information they show without calculations:
50% of the 33 K greenhouse effect is due to water vapor, about 25% to clouds, 20% to CO2, and the remaining 5% to the other non-condensable greenhouse gases such as ozone, methane, nitrous oxide, and so forth.
This seems to be a lot of green house effect attributed to less than 1 percent of the atmospheric composition.
If you have a link with other work, I am content to read it rather than a new write up.
Thank you,
RHS
PS, glad to hear you are feeling better and I look forward to reading your additional work.
In response to RHS, the Forbes article is yet another me-too regurgitation of Al Gore’s talking points. The article starts with two questions: Is the world warming [Yes, a bit], and What is the cause? [Partly nature, partly us and no one knows how much from each] But these are not the questions of interest.
The correct questions are, Is the world warming at the predicted rate? [No: only at one-third of the predicted rate]. Is the observed rate of warming net-harmful or net-beneficial? [Net-beneficial]. Are the predictions that have not come true in the present likely to come true in the future? [No: the predictions are based on an elementary and significant error of physics]. And, even if global warming were as much of a problem as official climatology imagines, is it a) possible [No] and b) affordable [No] to abate it?
“In the long run, the use of reason will triumph against the current epidemic of irrationality.”
There is not much irrationality in ‘scientists’ pursuing the line of thought that provides easy access to public funds, while in the return governments use the so purchased ‘science’ to fleece the taxpayers.
If the millions of people who die every year due to lack of electricity were dying from global warming, we’d have nuclear power plants on every corner, and gasoline powered cars would be banned. But what is the response from the Church of Climate Scientology? They deny them funds to build coal-powered electrical plants. Million of them will die, but it’s for their own good. (Maybe we’ll get you some money later.)
There is a crowd that is constantly wailing that we must listen to the scientists because they know best. Well, they don’t seem to be very good at the branch of science called, “Decision-making Under Uncertainty.” There is no rational explanation for continued resistance to nuclear power, or for the extreme advocacy of windmills. When you add up the money it will take to address global warming, even using the alarmist assumptions, you have to come to the conclusion that we are better off waiting to see what transpires.
Steve O is right. It is better to wait and see rather than to squander our children’s inheritance on boondoggles such as windmills – 14th-century technology to solve a 21st-century non-problem. It is two orders of magnitude cheaper to wait and adapt than to abate and wait.
By the way, it’s worth noting that when you ask the candy cane question, it doesn’t matter if mankind is the proximate cause of warming or not. It matters not a whit if it’s due to natural causes.
If it is beneficial to mitigate warming due to CO2 concentrations such that the expected benefits of taking action exceed the expected costs of taking action, then we should take action whether mankind is at fault or whether it is entirely natural. If the benefits of taking action do not exceed the costs of taking action, then we should not take action whether mankind is at fault or not. The proximate cause of the warming does not enter into the equation.
The Church of Climate Scientology preaches about mankind’s contribution because asking people to pay higher gas taxes and to build windmills with the aim of altering a natural global climate cycle is too obvious in its stupidicy. Creating feelings of guilt are important to create leverage. We all want to leave the campsite without leaving trash behind, so reducing impact on the atmosphere sounds natural. Besides, people like to feel guilty. And everyone wants to save the world.
But when it comes to deciding on whether to take action, it doesn’t matter how much we contribute to the warming or not.
A good example of the above discussion is here, relating to heat-related deaths:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1462901114000999
Table 5 in above doesn’t even list ‘cold-related deaths’. And below:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-18/heatwaves-australias-deadliest-hazard-why-you-need-plan/9338918
Both talk about heatwaves being the ‘most deadly of all natural disasters in Australia’s history’, but both fail to even mention or analyze cold-related deaths, or ‘cold-waves’ (Why isn’t there such a word?).
How anyone could sign their name on such papers, or editors sign off on them is actually a bigger mystery to me than anything in the papers/articles themselves. Willful ignorance.
Regarding development in Africa, who runs the World Bank, and who appointed them”?
If they are all Greeens, then can Pres. Trump remove them ?
MJE
This is in flux even as we speak. The president of the World Bank resigned this week, and the US President makes the nomination for the next one.
The discussion of changes in atmospheric CO2 concentration in relation to emissions abatement requires that atmospheric CO2 concentration should be responsive to emissions. This relationship is assumed in climate science as something that is obvious but it is not found in the data without the use of circular reasoning.
Please see:
https://tambonthongchai.com/2018/12/19/co2responsiveness/
Also this
https://tambonthongchai.com/2018/05/31/the-carbon-cycle-measurement-problem/
TRIUMPH!
Tonight I had the pleasure of enjoying a curry, in a nice restaurant with my wife and our two friends. Our friends are politically polar in their views, she is, like me, a committed Capitalist, he is a committed socialist. My wife listens but is politically ambivalent.
We finished off our usual pleasant evening back at our house where the inevitable subject of Brexit came up in the conversation. My socialist friend of 25 years and a staunch believer in remaining in the EU went ballistic, I have never seem him so enraged.
A few weeks ago we discussed the subject and he was all for a second referendum, in my view a complete betrayal of democracy, but he was insistent it was the right thing to do.
Tonight, quite unexpectedly, he invited me to accompany him on a public demonstration to support Brexit and, more importantly, the concept of democracy we both cherish, despite our innumerable political differences.
I’m not sure the rest of the world understands how important Brexit is in the global scheme of things. On the face of it, a simple decision to leave the EU or to remain in the EU. The referendum asked just two simple questions, ‘Remain’ or ‘Leave’ – Trump or Clinton.
Had the vote been 52% remain, the UK would have remained 100% in the EU, obeying all it’s socialist (fascist) laws and regulations. It would have surrendered it’s legal authority, eventually it’s political authority and finally it’s land and identity. An EU military force would be raised and the continent, under the guise of defence, would be yet another nuclear capable continent with Germany in the driving seat. I’ll leave the consequences of that to your imagination other than to say I have nothing against German citizens, but I do fear their collective ambitions.
But the vote was 52% to leave the EU, retain our sovereignty, re-establish our law making rights, manage our own immigration, engage in our own free trade with the rest of the world and re-establish relationship with the Commonwealth countries that fought with us through two world wars to protect the the modern worlds seat of parliamentary democracy.
The British public’s perception of the 2016 Brexit referendum was that we would indeed be 100% in the EU had ‘Remain’ prevailed but they didn’t, and the expectation, despite the political shenanigans, is that having won the referendum, the Brexiteers belief of being 100% out of the EU should be respected.
But those wishes have not, and are not, being respected.
My socialist friend was apoplectic, not because his desire to remain in the EU was thwarted, but because the common bond between us both, democracy, is being betrayed by the politicians in the very country that influenced the world with it’s parliamentary procedures, it’s adherence to the rule of law and it’s commitment to democracy.
And the triumph? Well, that’s for my socialist friend and my unity, in our belief in democracy.
Hard to believe; are you certain that wasn’t last-night’s dream?
I am delighted at HotScot’s story. For there are still some moderate Socialists who believe in democracy. They are few, and they are precious. Most Socialists these days are extreme totalitarians, who take the Establishment view on questions such as Brexit or climate change: the Establishment knows best, and to hell with the people, or democracy, or science. The Party Line is all, and the Party Line is set not by or for the people but by and for the totalitarian Establishment.
Downing street’s Freddie Frinton (aka PM) got it about right, her deal means that the UK will leave 52% of the EU laws and regulations, but for the rest and a day 48% of the EU laws and regulations will be followed without any say about it.
UK’s referendum has created the classic division among it’s populous resulting in conflict between that part of the population that have no wish to be commanded or to be oppressed by the powers to be and the elite with a deep-rooted aspiration to command and rule the plebs.
Please note that Nordhaus proposed a 3% discount rate not a 5%.
Nordhaus (2008) said 5% was the minimum commercial discount rate. The article here at Wattsupwiththat to which I was replying also said Nordhaus used a 5% rate. No doubt he may have used other discount rates at one time or another, but 5% is indeed the minimum commercial discount rate (see e.g. Murphy 2008).
Another Christopher Monckton of Brenchley masterpiece.
Glad to hear you’re recovered and we sincerely hope you remain well for a very long time.
Olive oil and turmeric daily (according to Dr Mosley); the only good thing from the BBC in recent time.
Ctm don’t you think it’s time you kicked-off a WUWT fund-raiser for Christopher?
Base it on medical bills; I’ll start the ball rolling with $200 from down-under.
Warren is most kind and generous in his comments. It is indeed good to be back after a year in which I had not been able to do very much. A fund-raiser for me is of course a most attractive concept: but there are more deserving cases, such as our kind host, whose business has been much affected by the terrible Californian forest fires of last summer. Perhaps Warren would like to send his $200 in Anthony’s direction.
I recall a very very funny “Yes Minister, “” where a very outspoken female was having a go at Sir Humphrey.
I am not your “Dear Lady”. But the finally agreed that the persons out in the country simply did not understand how things worked and thus “Needed guiding”.
00
It has always been thus, first it was the Church and the Kings, today its our “Leaders” who are all wish, thus we should obey them.
MJE
Green has blood on its hands.
The higher the discount rate, the more the uncertainty there is and the less likely it is that the calculation will show our investment to be net-profitable.
This is wrong. its a common error, but its wrong. For a detailed explanation see Brealy and Myers, Corporate Finance.
Good practice is not to set a higher discount rate to allow for risk. The discount rate should reflect the organisations cost of capital. When you calculate the NPV of some course, you now know what that course is worth to shareholders or the organization, assuming it delivers as you have estimated.
But, you say, risks vary. Yes, indeed they do. But they do not affect what a given future stream of cash flows is worth. They affect how likely you are to get them. So take the next step, and consider risk.
The way you manage risk is Expected Value. You have some uncertainty, and this translates into a range of possible Net Present Values. You run a number of these and end up with several representative values. Then you take the weighted average, which is the Expected Value.
Its a bad mistake, though a very common one, to collapse the two and to discount one particular set of possible cash flows, and then to try to allow for the risk involved by setting a discount rate higher or lower. The problem is that this avoids a real analysis of what exactly the risks are, and what exactly they cost if they come due.
But read Brealy and Myers. The authoritative source on all these matters, clear, lots of examples, detailed explanation of the whys and wherefores, and leaves no room for argument.
There is no incompatibility between what I have written and the textbook, which merely explains one way in which the market sets discount rates. If there is high uncertainty about whether one will get one’s money back and make a profit, the discount rate one uses will generally be higher than if there is low uncertainty.
The yellow vests stood for (or seemed to stand for) one thing when they started making headlines, but after they got Macron to back off the gas tax they continue to burn tires, break windows, shut down commerce, attack police, etc., reportedly because Macron also repealed a “Wealth Tax”. In other words, they are against a tax on the middle / poor, but vehemently in favor of a tax on the rich. I don’t understand their appeal, which is growing. I don’t think they stand for anything positive.
Thanks for the analysis of the opening post – and any comment clarifying the motives of the Gilets Jaunes movement.
The yellow-jackets, as their support for the wealth tax shows, are Socialists. That is why Macron is so frightened of them that he backed away from imposing his absurd tax hikes on gasoline and diesel. Ands that is why their response to his proposal to hike the taxes is so interesting. So absurd are such attempts to make global warming go away that even Socialists are now realizing that the environmental extremists have hoodwinked them.
“…And that is why their response to his proposal to hike the taxes is so interesting.” … and, I would add, frightening. It should give us pause here in the U.S. to see a civilized country like France unable to handle thugs burning cars and assaulting police. I understand Macron is now considering strengthening their anti-riot laws. It would seem that horse has already left the barn.
France, owing to the dismal legacy of the totalitarian revolutionaries, followed by that of the ghastly little tyrant Napoleon, is the least democratic nation in Europe. Government is heavily centralized, and the people have remarkably little say at any level. That is why they have proven themselves readier to take to the streets than other nations: there is all too often no democratic outlet for their opinions.
it is precisely because the United Kingdom wants its democracy back that the libertarian half of the nation voted to leave the EU. The totalitarian establishment is furious, of course, and it may well try to deny us our freedom. if so, expect the British worm, too, to turn.
Michel has corrected one error. Sorry, Lord Monckton, but Michel is right. However there is another sentence which I believe is in error:
“Commercial entities use the discount rate as a means to decide whether an investment is worthwhile, and they can set the discount rate in such a way as to reflect the risks to the anticipated future income stream.”
Certainly they use the discount rate to decide if an investment is worthwhile. But they cannot “set” the discount rate. The discount rate for a Commercial entity is the rate which would apply regarding the next best alternative investment. Consider, the net present value (NPV) for investment A is such that it would return X% on the cost of the investment. This is predicated on the discount rate used in the calculation of NPV is a%. The NPV could also be calculated using 0.5a% or 1.5a%. Using the rate of 0.5% means that later returns are calculated to be more valuable than the returns in those later years using a rate of 1.5a%. This is especially relevant where the future returns will end after a defined period of years, as for purchase of a piece of machinery with an assumed life.
This can also be done for the possible range of alternative investments. The best investment is the one which will give the highest NPV. I understand from the financial press that a common standard for commercial operations is to use a discount rate of 15% when considering investments. This is not ‘setting’ a discount rate, but ‘using’ a discount rate which reflects the organization’s view on future prospects. The Australian government used a standard discount rate of 10%, but I understand that more recently government enterprises have had to use 7% and 10% discount rates in evaluating projects. Perhaps I am being a bit pedantic, but to use one of P G Wodehouse’s examples, the discount rate for a hot chestnut barrow would be around 50%; for a long lived project such as the Inland Railway with a life expectancy of 50 to 60 years for the average life of the various components one might well suggest a figure of 4% would be reasonable.
Mr Horscroft says Michel has corrected an “error” in my short account of intertemporal discounting, and he now says there is another “error”. He is himself in error on both counts. As I have already pointed out, there was no incompatibility between my outline of discounting and Michel’s point. As to Mr Horscroft’s point, having set and used discount rates at a senior level in government, and having advised other governments than my own on intertemporal investment appraisal, I can assure him that governments – and, for that matter, corporations – do not confine themselves to the purely mechanistic approach he advocates.
It is trivially true that, among other things, discounting can be used to decide whether to invest in one project or another. In government, however, the choice is usually a far simpler one: should the government interfere with the operation of the market to the extent of exercising its preemptive power over taxpayers’ billfolds, or should it leave the money in the taxpayers’ own pockets, there to be spent as the taxpayers themselves wish?
For this reason, governments publish standard discount rates to be used in intertemporal calculations. In the United States, the Office of Management and Budget recommends 7%; the UK Government, for everything except climate change, recommends a mere 3%; etc., etc. On the whole, for prudential reasons, commercial interests use discount rates of an absolute minimum of 5%, as pointed out in Murphy (2008) and separately in Nordhaus (2008), but they generally adopt rates not less than the 7% recommended for government projects by the Office of Management and Budget.
My own approach, when advising the UK Prime Minister, was to begin by addressing the candy-cane question (it is surprising how often this starting-point is not mentioned in the textbooks), and then, and only then, to apply various discount rates to establish at what rate the investment became unviable.
In any event, the purpose of the head posting was to give a general account of discounting, and, above all, to explain the central importance of the candy-cane question. The moment one applies candy-cane analysis to any climate mitigation project, it is instantly clear that the do-nothing option is better by one or two – and in some extreme instances, such as London’s free bike scheme, three – orders of magnitude.
The tax raised in the French example wojkd have been used to build more wind and solar which would have meant that a nuclear station would be shutdown but a gas plant would then need to be built to load follow the additional renewables, thus increasing co2.