Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
I came across an article that hypes a new “carbon capture” plant with the following headline:
The world’s first “negative emissions” plant has begun operation—turning carbon dioxide into stone
The article starts out as follows:
There’s a colorless, odorless, and largely benign gas that humanity just can’t get enough of. We produce 40 trillion kg of carbon dioxide each year, and we’re on track to cross a crucial emissions threshold that will cause global temperature rise to pass the dangerous 2°C limit set by the Paris climate agreement.
But, in hushed tones, climate scientists are already talking about a technology that could pull us back from the brink. It’s called direct-air capture, and it consists of machines that work like a tree does, sucking carbon dioxide (CO2) out from the air, but on steroids—capturing thousands of times more carbon in the same amount of time, and, hopefully, ensuring we don’t suffer climate catastrophe.
So … CO2 “problem” solved, what’s not to like?
Well, down near the bottom of the article they say:
Jan Wurzbacher, Climeworks’s director, says it hopes to bring costs down to about $100 per metric ton of carbon dioxide. That’s close to the price Carbon Engineering is targeting, according to Geoffrey Holmes, the company’s business development manager. Peter Eisenberger, co-founder of Global Thermostat, says their technology will be even cheaper: when scaled up, he says, costs will drop to as low as $50 per metric ton.
OK, let’s take that as gospel even though they may never get there. They confidently say the cost will get down to $50 per tonne … so if we want to capture the “40 trillion kg of carbon dioxide each year“, it will cost a mere two trillion dollars per year …
Two trillion dollars??? And not just once, but each and every year???
Now, humans are not good at visualizing big numbers, so here’s a comparison. Suppose someone with deep pockets started a business way, way back in the year zero, the year when Christ was born. And suppose further that the business lost a million dollars a day. A million bucks, that’s a lot of scratch … and the business lost that every day.
So, time passed, as it tends to do. The Roman Empire fell, the Dark Ages came, and the business was still losing a million bucks each and every day. Medieval times came and went, the Victorian era bloomed and faded, and all the way up to the present, the business lost a megabuck every day.
So … if the million dollars per day loss continued every day right up to the present, how many trillions of dollars would you estimate the business would have lost in total?
…
…
…
Well … um … not even one trillion.
And these numeric geniuses are proposing that we waste two trillion dollars per year to capture CO2? That’s more than five billion dollars per day … really? There are not any pressing global problems left to solve? Have we conquered poverty? Does everyone have clean water? Think of what problems we could solve and what we could achieve with five billion dollars to spend, each and every day, year after year.
And given all of the world’s problems, they propose wasting two terabucks per year on this madness?
Congenital innumeracy …
w.
PS—Of course, this process will require lots and lots of energy. And you can’t use a normal fossil-fueled power plant to provide the energy or you’re putting more evil CO2 into the atmosphere. Plus it requires special rock to inject the CO2 into … which means it will only work in Iceland where they have lots of geothermal energy plus the special rock …
PPS—If you are going to comment please quote the exact words you are referring to, so we can all understand what you are discussing. I get grumpy when people start throwing around uncited, unquoted, unsupported accusations that some un-named person made some vague unspecified claim somewhere or another … that way lies madness.
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The price of EEA (european emission allowance) is currently 12.37 EU/ton, a low from historical high of ~17 EU/Ton. The icelandic scheme at $100/ton or WE’s price at $50/ton will never fly in this depressed market.
I find the fact that such a market exists, to be very depressing.
At the risk of throwing more gasoline on the fire, Let us pretend for a moment that the damn thing actually does what it was built to do, at the price of only half a trillion dollars… What would the reaction of the rest of the evil carbon dioxide spewing world be?
Would China and India repent their sinful ways, or would they merely shrug and spew even more CO2 thinking someone else would fill in as ‘mom’ and pick up their dirty underwear?
It has already been shown that people who think they are saving the world by carbon footprint shaming, recycling and driving expensive and highly toxic battery powered cars are often pretty big hypocrites, merely wishing to be seen as virtuous while in fact they are even more careless with their energy usage, and are very fond of jet powered travel, high energy cost lifestyles, and electronic do-dads galore (I’m looking at you Gore and Di Caprio!).
The credulous author of the article is one Akshat Rathi, a reporter for Quartz in London.
He has a PhD in chemistry from Oxford University and a BTech in chemical engineering from the Institute of Chemical Technology, Mumbai.
https://qz.com/author/akshatqz/
Here is the nut …
Climeworks says it is now looking to customers who want to buy their way into programs that cut their emissions. The delivery company DHL, for example, has committed to reaching zero emissions by 2050. [ … ] The hope is that DHL will pay money to Climeworks to bury those excess emissions into the ground.
Hope springs eternal.
And now for the big “if” …
If direct air capture can be made cheap enough for there to be commercial interest, then the economics of carbon capture at point-sources will likely work, too. And if nothing else, the existence of direct air capture gives humanity a high-premium insurance policy against what would surely be a much more expensive disaster.
Someone needs to define that “expensive disaster.” Even the IPCC’s AR5 could point to no disaster.
Maybe the article’s title should have been, Genital Insufficiency.
We often ridicule climate alarmists using references to the brain, but I wonder whether we should aim our ridicule a little further down. There seem to be some “sub-branial” [my word] issues surrounding tiny concentrations of a life-giving gas and policies behaving like this is bigger than it really is.
Oops!, I forgot the direct quote we are always asked to provide, before commenting, so (per precise author instructions), the title of the foregoing article is, Congenital Innumeracy.
Maybe the article’s title should have been, Genital Insufficiency.
[Fill in the rest from previous attempt]
Stimulate the academic/bureaucrat/profiteer “sub-branial” [sic] with lots of lubricating cash and you will get inflation, up to eventual release of noxious effluent.
Well, yeah. But drugs help. Just ask Ivan.
Can the stones produced by this process be used to make cement or something useful?
They should figure out a way to make coal. Then they could produce the energy needed to run the machines and make them self-sufficient (but no less useless).
Making cement releases CO2.
From coal to carbon dioxide, back to coal. “Now that’s a tortured journey.”
Yeah, but it won’t be cheap!
…right up there with the raisin rehydrator
Could they make the stones in the shape of patio or cobble stones so they could serve a purpose? Maybe greens would buy them at an inflated price, kind of like buying carbon credits.
I like the concept “congenital innumeracy –” it goes along well with “intentional ignorance”.
The technical difference: congenital is innumeracy is utterly unfixable, while intentional ignorance can be changed by changing intent—removing CAGW research financial incentives, for example.
Perhaps, upon reflection, a legal distinction without a difference.
Or, as I told my wife after the first visit with her family in Pennsylvania, willful ignorance. She agreed; that was one reason for escaping to Colorado upon HS graduation. Others were summer heat and humidity.
I’m not sure, but I think I saw the effects of this experiment when it happened. They had used some sort of CO2 enhanced water and injected it into the fissure system of Hengill volcano. The idea was to use the carbonate formation as a propping agent to keep the fissures open. The whole region became flush with small earthquakes. This map was covered in little red dots where the quakes were at.
http://en.vedur.is/earthquakes-and-volcanism/earthquakes/hengill/
Is this anything like bitcoin mining?
Nope! Bitcoin mining produces something of value. Sequestration of CO2 has no value (no one, at any time in the future, will be willing to pay for the sequestered CO2 – that is what it means to have value: someone has to want it badly enough to pay something [a little or a lot] for it).
This reminds me of a test unit to produce water that my previous employer tested. It uses refrigeration to condense water out of the air. Worked great in Houston, but probably not very well in its intended application in the drier parts of Africa. When the performance was touted in the site newsletter, I politely asked how much electricity was consumed, versus how much water you could produce using reverse osmosis. I was informed that a full set of results would be sent out at the end of the evaluation period. of course they were not. It was a really inefficient way to produce water. To reduce the CO2 footprint, they also proposed a large PV array (the compressor on this baby was way bigger than the one in my home AC system so a typical house-sized array would not begin to push that load). All built on the back of fossil fuels. This from a company that had engineers who could do the kinds of calculations to show what a bad idea this was before wasting the money to build one.
Of course they are not dreaming that the rest of the world will pay for sequester CO2 just the USA. They believe since our federal government spends around 11 billion dollars a day they can “shame” us into paying for sequester. It is why everyone on the left got so angry when Trump withdrew from Paris. The deal Obama had made was the USA would pay for the idiocy. Of course all Paris was intended to be was another wealth redistribution program.
Willis
Perspective is a wonderful thing. Thanks.
If the powers that be were to accept the proposal and go forward with the project on the basis that you described and spend the two trillion per year, why would they not spend the same money on nuclear generation.
As the two trillion is a cost and not an investment the power that the nuclear sites produced would be free apart from daily labour and input costs. The world would have extremely cheap power and their CO2 problem removed.
Regards
… Not to mention the seeming lunacy of fracking and actual live volcano. But, Iceland has a lot of experience living on the edge… it’s not like they drilled into an actual magma pocket like they did over at Krafla. The result? Ruined a drill-bit and a bit of drilling string. Unless that chamber/pocket is under a lot of pressure, you get no eruption. And it it’s that pressurized, it’s gonna come out by itself pretty soon.
What was that long-wound explanation for? Just say it would basically burn money like Tesla 😉
It might be fun to calculate how much schemes like this would add to the cost of various fuels. For instance,
Gasoline costs around $2.50/gallon (6 lb). One gallon of gas turns into about 19 pounds of CO2, so 100 gallons makes a ton of CO2. If the cost is only $50/ton for capture, the price of gasoline goes up by about 20%.
Coal cost a little over $40 per ton delivered to power plants in 2015, according to EIA. One ton of coal turns into somewhere around 2 tons of CO2 (surprisingly wide variation even if we only talk about bituminous and sub-bituminous). If capture costs $50/ton, the cost of coal for power plants increases by 250%?! Did I get that right? Seems high.
Natural gas for electricity was costing about $3.50/thousand cubic feet (Mcf) last year. The EPA gives a conversion to CO2 of 0.0550 metric tons CO2/Mcf. So 20 Mcf makes a ton of CO2. $70 delivered to the power plant turns into $120 – a 70% increase.
Maybe for coal and natural gas it would be better to look at levelized costs to calculate actual price increases to consumers, but I don’t know enough to trust the levelized cost numbers available on the internet.
Apologies if my numbers are way off – I just thought it would be illuminating to see these costs as percentage increases on our current energy prices.
Your numbers are way off because turning 6.3 pounds of gasoline (or anything else) into 19 pounds of CO2 or anything else is a physical impossibility. That’s right up there with claims that a push mower or scooter pollutes as much as a dozen cars.
No, it is correct. The chain unit of hydrocarbon is CH2, MW 14
CH2+1.5O2->CO2+H2O. In MW, 14+48-> 44+18
14 lb gas makes 44 lb CO2
Gregg Eshelman March 27, 2018 at 1:11 am Edit
Gregg, suppose you burn carbon. It combines with oxygen to give CO2. Now … will the carbon plus the oxygen weigh more or less than the carbon alone?
w.
=========================
Atomic Mass Units (amu)
=========================
Hydrogen 1.00794
Carbon 12.0107
Oxygen 15.994
(approximately 1, 12 & 16)
=========================
Nick’s balanced equation for gasoline combustion
(annotated)
=========================
CH2 (1 Carbon atom + 2 Hydrogen atoms)
+
1.5 x O2 (3 Oxygen atoms)
=> (react to form)
CO2 (a molecule comprised of 1 Carbon atom and 2 Oxygen atoms)
+ H2O (a molecule comprised of 2 Hydrogen atoms and 1 Oxygen atom)
+ energy
=========================
Molecular weight of reactants and products
(Nick’s “MW”)
=========================
reactants:
CH2
= 12 + 1 + 1
= 14
O2 x 1.5
= (16 + 16) + 16
= 48
[14 + 48 = 62]
products
CO2
= 12 + 16 + 16
= 44
H2O
= 1 + 1 + 16
= 18
[44 + 18 = 62]
Thus, 14 grams of gasoline reacts with 48 grams of oxygen [62 grams of reactants]
to produce 44 grams of carbon dioxide & 18 grams of water [62 grams of products]
For a shortcut to a good approximation that yields no insight, try multiplying the weight of gasoline by pi. 🙂
Tried that once but the Pi gave me Gas and didn’t taste very good
“I just thought it would be illuminating to see these costs as percentage increases on our current energy prices.”
Yes, I think it is. The percentages for coal and natural gas are high, but for power generation, it is much better to capture the CO2 before it has been released to the air. For gasoline, 20% seems about right.
Why would anyone want to spend precious monetary resources trying to turn CO2 into stone… when plants turn CO2 into materials we can eat, build homes with, and burn to stay warm without any additional human investments needed?
The proposal is the pinnacle of progressive preposterousness!
to build the wall silly
I don’t think they are injecting it because of the basalt pile there which is common worldwide. They are injecting it into a hydrothermal field.
Which is a volcano on top of a triple junction.
Triple junctions are the most unstable geologic systems on the planet. Even “The Geysers” geothermal station is near the Mendocino triple junction.
…Congenital Innumeracy…
Perhaps this goes some way to explaining it…
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-43542565
Hi Willis. For once, you’re flat wrong. These people are not only numerate but very smart – they know exactly how much money they’re looking to fleece from politicians in subsidies, and exactly the trigger words to use in their press release to do it.
I think JJB’s got it right. These people are quite numerate, but are hoping the great unwashed are not.
Moreover, they don’t really want to solve the problem (just as the Dems don’t want to solve immigration) – they just want to use the topic as a dividing line and a way to extort money.
There is plenty of scientific rational to support the idea that the climate sensivity of CO2 is zero. Hence the effort will have no effect on climate. The amount of CO2 in the air is currently below the optimum for plant growth and hence life as we know it. If we remove enough CO2 we could extirminate life on this planet but it still would have no effect on climate. If you want to lower temperatures at the Earth’s surface yet preserve life then a better approach would be to remove significant amounts of N2 from the atmosphere so as to reduce surface atmospheric pressure.
willhaas, I agree with you that CO2 levels are currently below the optimum (way below, in fact). But, as I explained here, I’m not persuaded by your claim that climate sensitivity to CO2 is zero.
You previously elaborated on the reason which you believe that to be the case, here.
I asked you a question about that here, here, but you never answered. This is my question:
Can you please answer that question?
What the heck, it’s only money. What I am trying to visualize is 40 trillion kgs of sequestered CO2 each and every year!
https://qz.com/1136533/a-radical-startup-has-invented-the-worlds-first-zero-emissions-fossil-fuel-power-plant/
From the same source – the Allam cycle power plant – and it doesn’t cost anything at all to capture the CO2
……One should not forget that cost in money is a proxy for energy used in whatever units of measure……That is the daily cost for the energy that would be needed to keep the marvelous machine running. Nor do they get to have a perpetual motion machine any more than any of the rest of us get to.
Do you reckon this marvelous machine may be powered either directly or indirectly by fossil fuels?
Alright, let’s clear some stuff up.
This is the chemical reaction of Octane (Gasoline): C8H18 + 12.5 O2 -> 8CO2 + 9H2O
1 mole of C8H18 is 114 grams, 12.5 moles of O2 is 400 grams,8 moles of CO2 is 352 grams, and 9 moles of H2O is 162 grams….balanced, just as it should be.
Ok, so with this in mind, let’s look at the energy of this chemical reaction. Oh that’s right, it’s exothermic, which is why we use it for combustion. Wait, so is every other hydrocarbon, some of them gloriously efficient which is why we use them to power our modern world as cheaply as we do.
Meanwhile, to turn CO2 into anything else, whatever it might be, is an endothermic reaction….yes, that is right, we have to put energy back into it. Which is why we look at things like catalysts, to lower the amount of energy needed to turn CO2 into anything else.
So why am I going over basic chemistry? Good question. Quite simply, CO2 sequestration or conversion costs money. Even if it is turned into something useful, at this time it still costs more to do then to not do. CAGW fanatics may live in a fantasy world where power companies just eat the cost but the adults in the room know better.
Every method for handling CO2 is a cost to whatever company is doing it and ultimately they will put that cost on the consumer.
Now, as an engineer, I like the idea of capturing ALL the by-products and turning them into something useful. That is just elimination of waste, which makes my lean manufacturing geared brain all giddy inside. But it is very difficult to go against the endothermic needs of any chemical reaction with CO2.
“Meanwhile, to turn CO2 into anything else, whatever it might be, is an endothermic reaction”
No. To reduce CO2 is endothermic. Acid-base reactions generally not. That is why, for example, if you leave quicklime (CaO) in air, it absorbs CO2. And the reaction here is similar, allowing reaction with basic rocks.
Wait for it……wait for it……
Hey Nick, you are right.
Yep, I said it. But….only in regards to the correct word to discuss the correct reaction. Reduction is endothermic, but…sigh…so is the necessary reaction to turn it back into another hydrocarbon, like say for instance, methane.
Now, in regards to your whole quicklime statement.
CaCO3(s) –> CaO + CO2 is endothermic; it requires lots of heat (energy). CaO cant be found in nature since it absorbs CO2, it has to be made. So yes, it is possible to make lots of quicklime to absorb twice the amount of CO2, but if the energy used is created by burning hydrocarbons, you just wasted money. Oh, and lets not even get into a discussion about the wisdom of throwing a base in the ocean and increasing its alkalinity…even a little.
Now if there were calcium carbonate near the Salton Sea in California, hmmm……big solar farm to make CaO, throw it in the Salton sea and whammo……oh wait. Probably not. What about the Great Salt Lake?
Yeah, that would cost a lot of money, kill a lot of wildlife, not take out very much carbon, and be a general nuisance…..just like every other strange idea the CAGW crowd comes up with.
” So yes, it is possible to make lots of quicklime”
No, that wouldn’t make sense. You’d emit as much CO2 as could be absorbed. But if you can react CO2 with other basic oxides in underground basalt, where the heat of lava has already driven off the CO2…that is what is proposed here.
So…this is CO2 vs the volcano?
Joe Versus The Volcano was a bad movie. This doesn’t sound any better.
IF CO2 is really a bad thing that needs to be removed from the atmosphere and the heat of lava has driven it off from the basalt rock, then wouldn’t packing more of it into the rocks surrounding a very active volcanic region be like packing more gunpowder into the tube before the fuse is lit?
A VERY costly time bomb with no useful purpose.
Another PS:
Is the goal of this to remove (some of) the CO2 from the atmosphere the (natural) volcanic heat released to begin with or to rake in some of green still being stirred up by “CAGW” gone cold?
(“The Cause” needs a new lever.)
“more of it into the rocks surrounding a very active volcanic region be like packing more gunpowder into the tube before the fuse is lit”
The basalt may have been there for millions of years. It doesn’t have to be an active region. But anyway, the CO2 becomes carbonate.
So it’s OK for Man to change the Earth’s basalt rock into limestone and dolomite to keep Man’s (and Nature’s) CO2 from changing the air we breath?
Aside from the fact that there is no real need to do so, why wouldn’t those who object to Man changing the atmosphere object to Man changing the ground we stand on?
We need more caves before CAGW-based policy drives us back to the stone age?
Research efforts would be better put to finding an economical way for kilns that burn limestone to produce CaO recover the CO2 and sell it at a profit. (An actual profit. No subsidies or regulations forcing it.)
Big market for CO2. (Where I work, we generally use over 10,000 pounds a day … to change carbonates into bicarbonates.)
If their estimate was made by the same crew that estimated costs for the bullet train in Cali, the true cost will be $6 trillion per year.
So, it is claimed that the rocks around the volcano have had their CO2 driven off by heat–why then can you inject CO2 and expect it to stay? It is like saying we can resettle refugees in Detroit.
+1