Guest Opinion: Dr. Tim Ball
“You can have brilliant ideas, but if you can’t get them across, your ideas won’t get you anywhere.” Lee Iacocca
In his essay, “Reflections on Mark Steyn’s ‘A Disgrace to the Profession’ about Dr. Michael Mann” Rick Wallace wrote,
Tim Ball, Fred Singer and others have been countering the AGW meme for a few decades, but to little avail.
He is correct. Yes, there is a slight increase in the number of skeptics as evidenced by the increased readership at WUWT, but it is a fraction of even total Internet users. Even those who read and comment on WUWT articles on the site often say they are not scientists or don’t fully understand the topic. Others demonstrate their lack of knowledge and understanding without the caveats.
Wallace continues,
But why is this? Why haven’t their voices carried? And, conversely, why was The Team so successful in getting their message out? Was it because, possibly for quite other reasons, there was already a receptive audience at hand? That there was an existing matrix of attitudes and beliefs to which the AGW belief system could adhere? And this matrix served to amplify some messages while it filtered out other, conflicting messages.
In a preface to the essay, Anthony Watts wrote,
“Given what happened today in live testimony before the House Science Committee where Dr. Mann was testifying, this review seems germane and timely.”
We can add to the timeliness the recent Washington D.C Heartland Climate Conference held (March 23-24, 2017). The conference was held with the opt
imism created by the election of President Trump and appointment of Scott Pruitt as head of EPA. By some accounts, it was a successful conference that spoke primarily to the science issues and some of the economic ramifications. In doing so, it overlooked, as skeptics have consistently, Iacocca’s challenge. These events will have little impact on effectively slowing the anthropogenic global warming (AGW) juggernaut. It will join the list of events, which I and others expected would crash the vehicle. Just a few key examples
· The 1988 claim by James Hansen before Senator Timothy Wirth’s orchestrated piece of theatre that he was 99 percent certain that humans were causing global warming.
· The 1997 Byrd-Hagel Resolution asked US Senators whether they wanted to vote to ratify Kyoto Protocol. They voted 95-0 not to vote on ratification.
· The 2009 Heartland Institute Climate Conference was presenting skeptical views on a world stage.
· The 2009 leak of 1000 emails from the Climatic Research Unit (CRU). These emails were clearly carefully selected to provide evidence of wrongdoing that the public would likely understand. It didn’t help.
· The 2010 release of 6000 more CRU emails further documented the malfeasance, which Mosher and Fuller summarized in their book Climategate: The Crutape Letters;
“The Team, led by Phil Jones and Michael Mann, in attempts to shape the debate and influence public policy:
Actively worked to evade (Steve) Mcintyre’s Freedom of information requests, deleting emails, documents and even climate data
Tried to corrupt the peer-review principles that are the mainstay of modern science, reviewing each other’s’ work, sabotaging efforts of opponents trying to publish their own work, and threatening editors of journals who didn’t bow to their demands
Changed the shape of their own data in materials shown to politicians charged with changing the shape of our world, ‘hiding the decline’ that showed their data could not be trusted.”
The juggernaut survived these charges that would have shut down completely any other program. The CRU and the IPCC are still operating. This was the same Michael Mann who appeared before a US Congressional House Committee on Science and Technology Hearing titled “Climate Science: Assumptions, Policy Implications, and the Scientific Method along with Judith Curry, John Christy and Roger Pielke Jr. The event received praise from skeptics and people who know and understand what has been going on. They focused on Mann’s character, manner, methods. Julie Kelly wrote a National Review article titled “Michael Mann Embarrasses Himself before Congress” that summarizes most of the skeptic’s perspective. She observes,
‘If the climate-change evangelist can’t be bothered to take a House hearing seriously, why should anyone take him seriously?”
This is incorrect. Mann took it very seriously, was well prepared and exploited it for every political opportunity – he dominated the entire proceedings. He had the advantage of not caring or having to care about the truth. His performance was designed for most of the public who have no idea about what is true. He knows this works because that assumption has driven the juggernaut from the start.
Mann also understood the political and manipulative nature of Congressional hearings. They are charades supposedly seeking the truth, but are really designed to make the politicians look good. They use the opportunity to put material on the official record that supposedly supports their position in the form of appeal to higher and wider or popular authority. Often, the politician simply read their staff-written position paper and don’t even bother with the expert.
My challenge to skeptics is to view the hearing as an uninformed citizen. From that perspective, I would argue that Mann was the most effective and persuasive. He was assertive, apparently provided hard evidence, had the backing of most scientists and scientific societies. He turned the minority status role the organizers gave him into the base for his victimization role. It wasn’t a debate, but he turned it into one and clearly believed, as would most uninformed observers, that he won.
He also believes he won because he marginalized his three opponents by calling them deniers in the pay of corporate entities. They believed they deflected this challenge with the help of the Chair, but that added to his victimization because it placed the Chair against him. The deniers said he was wrong, but because of time constraint offered no alternate explanations. They said the computer models were wrong but didn’t explain how or why. Their answers were properly vague because there are few definitive answers, but that contrasted with Mann’s confident assertiveness. Their vague answers underscored that they were a fringe group, thus justifying their denier label. They said Mann’s claim of increasing severe weather was incorrect but offered no graphs to prove it. They clearly had personal animosity to Mann but denied it when challenged. They provided no motive or even an explanation for why all these thousands of scientists would present false material and information and offered no explanation for their inferred claim that Mann was cheating.
Mann presented his latest research relating changes in the changes in the Jet Stream with severe weather. Nobody at the hearing pointed out that his claims were scientifically incorrect and the result of false computer model simulations. It is evident that Mann and his fellow authors did little historical research on the vast amount of data and literature beginning with the discovery of the Jet Stream during WWII and the work of Carl-Gustaf Rossby. The format of the hearings prevented any cross examination of Mann’s material, so it again made him more authoritative that the “deniers.” Overall, by trying to control the hearings and achieve their result the organizers played right into the hands of a person determined to disrupt the proceedings.
A major reason it appeared to the uninformed observer that Mann ‘won’ was the inability of the “deniers” to provide definitive answers. They are correct but think of the contradiction this creates for the uninformed. This small group of deniers is saying we don’t know the answers, but Mann is wrong.
The sad part is most skeptics would not have done any better. I watched another group of skeptics make a similar disastrous, unable to see the forest for the trees performance, before the Canadian parliament. They were asked questions that none of them could answer all the questions. The answers they gave were scientific jargon that few in the room understood. Worse, their answers indicated bad science by the AGW proponents. If so, was it bad because of incompetence or deliberate malfeasance? Either way, it raises several questions that if left unanswered or unexplained only give Mann credibility. If the science was wrong why and how did it pass peer review and go unchallenged? If it was deliberate malfeasance, how could so few people fool the entire world? Either way, if you make or infer the charge, you must provide an explanation and a motive. I did not hear that in the Ottawa or Washington hearings.
I did not attend the Washington Conference, partly for lack of funding, but primarily because I saw nothing to slow the political juggernaut that is global warming. I offered to make a presentation bringing everybody up to date with my legal situation, but also providing the political context for the lawsuits. Why did three prominent IPCC members, Gordon McBean, Andrew Weaver, and Michael Mann, bring, what amount to SLAPP lawsuits against me. I think there are two fundamental reasons. They could not say I wasn’t qualified, although they tried. I also had an ability to explain the complexities of climate and climate change in a way most could understand. I honed these skills by
- Instructing basic weather knowledge and forecast skills as an operations officer in Atlantic Canada and sub-Arctic and Arctic Canada.
- Teaching a first-year university climatology course for 25 years.
- Teaching a required Science credit university course for Arts students for 25 years.
- Teaching a non-credit university course for Seniors titled “The Way the Earth Works” for 25 years.
- Giving hundreds of public presentations to professional groups in primary industry like farmers, foresters and fishermen whose economies are directly impacted by weather and climate over 40 years.
- Writing a monthly column, Weather Talk” for Canada’s largest circulation farm magazine Country Guide. I was fired after 17 years because of action by a single Board member.
- Writing a monthly column for The Landowner for the last seven years.
- Giving hundreds of open forum public presentations over 40 years.
- Publishing a first-year university textbook on climatology.
A good example of the latter is important because it illustrates the challenge and explains why groups have been so ineffective, as Wallace identifies, in “countering the AGW meme.” Recently, I gave a public presentation in Mount Vernon in Washington State. The organizer warned me that people were in attendance who planned to disrupt the proceedings. There was no disruption, and when I asked what happened, the organizer told me that they left with one person commenting, we have never heard any of this before.
The solution to breaking the AGW meme is not in the science, good or bad because the public doesn’t know the difference. It is in showing how the science was created to achieve a predetermined result, namely the demonization of CO2. Then you must provide a motive. Why would scientists pervert science as David Deming identified in his letter to Science and congressional testimony?
“With the publication of the article in Science [in 1995], I gained significant credibility in the community of scientists working on climate change. They thought I was one of them, someone who would pervert science in the service of social and political causes. So, one of them let his guard down. A major person working in the area of climate change and global warming sent me an astonishing email that said, we have to get rid of the Medieval Warm Period. “
I made this challenge to explain climate in a way the public can understand the main theme of my presentation at the First Heartland Climate Conference in New York in 2009. I know from many discussions during the conference that few understood. Those that did were already in the education and communication business; people like Marita Noon who is now working for the Heartland Institute. A major point in my presentation was to accept that whether you like it or not Al Gore’s movie was a remarkably effective piece of propaganda. His latest effort is not even that, but most of the public won’t know. It is ineffective because Gore’s motives and hypocrisy have been exposed, not because public understanding of the science has improved.
Wallace’s charge that Tim Ball, Fred Singer, and others have challenged the AGW meme to no avail is correct. This, despite all the scientific evidence presented over the years up to and including Heartland’s 12th Conference and the recent Congressional Hearing. Little or nothing has changed. What is the solution?
Trump won in the minds of working and middle-class people, which is where the climate war must be won for lasting victory. They only need to understand enough science to know how it was corrupted, but they must know the motive. Until that happens, all the AGW proponents need to say is that Trump is acting to line the pockets of his billionaire friends. Mann demonstrated the technique in his congressional presentation.
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Wait until the “March for Science” happens. There will be no more dignity or influence or even interest in their Climate Change Madness. It’s going to be a circus, a complete and utter zoo after all of the other “special interest groups” have their way with it. And Bill Nye is the King of the Parade. I honestly cannot wait to watch them lose all credibility.
Please explain how they will “lose all credibility”?
Are you unfamiliar with the press on this one?
https://www.statnews.com/2017/03/22/science-march/
Or read some of the comments in “science” blogs like this one-
http://quillette.com/2017/03/03/why-social-scientists-should-not-participate-in-the-march-for-science/
The uber left, paid to march, activists for everything from women’s rights to gender to economics to racism to pro abortion to what-the-crap-ever will be joining this march. It’s going to make science look like a freak show.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/azeenghorayshi/march-for-science-diversity?utm_term=.smX94aBJDX#.fmVjXYlgr0
Apparently having an “old white male” like Bill Nye leading the march, caused quite an uproar. It’s going to be popcorn and cola night at my house.
credibility is irrelevant in a sea of credulity…
I believe they “lose all credibility” when they choose to hide their research (Mann & Jones). If I want to “protect” my work I put it in the public domain where other scientists can verify it and apply it. Isn’t that what real scientists do? Instead the “frauds” wish to hide their work. Why?
Gnomish has it!
Hello Tim,
Here is how I think this scenario will unfold:
“There will be lawsuits and criminal prosecutions of leading warmists and their institutions, and these will be well-deserved. I believe the first Civil RICO lawsuit in the USA has been initiated, as I predicted circa 2014.”
Best personal regards, Allan
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/03/29/reflections-on-mark-steyns-a-disgrace-to-the-profession-about-dr-michael-mann/comment-page-1/#comment-2466340
I have studied the science of alleged global warming since 1985 and written papers on it since 2002.
It has been clear to me since 1985 that global warming alarmism was a false crisis, and since about 2000 that it was deliberate fraud – now the greatest scientific fraud in the history of humankind.
This fraud will soon become fully apparent as it is exposed under the new Trump regime.
There is in reality NO global warming crisis – it was created by scoundrels and promoted by imbeciles, and has cost society tens of trillions of dollars in wasted subsidies, destabilized critical energy systems and cost lives.
The world will soon be fully informed of the proven falsehoods and thuggish misconduct of the global warming alarmist gang.
There will be lawsuits and criminal prosecutions of leading warmists and their institutions, and these will be well-deserved.
I believe the first Civil RICO lawsuit in the USA has been initiated, as I predicted circa 2014. Bravo!
They will lose credibility because their constant and eternal message is that (man made) climate-Armageddon’s-a-comin’… and just like all the other (religious) Armageddon predictors… eventually they will all be proven wrong.
I don’t see why there is all the worry and fuss about “winning” and “losing” the debate. It’s irrelevant. Life marches on. Oil companies are spending billions of dollars on acquisitions and new investments that take many decades to yield a return. Do you think the executives of these companies are stupid? Do you see climate change alarmists giving up their air travel in favour of sailing ships and bicycles? They can talk the talk all they want. The fundamental realities of energy density and dispachability cannot be denied. Whether the world is warming or not, we”ll be using fossil fuels well into the future, the Chinese and Indians will be building coal-fired power plants, the CO2 is going up, and no amount of alarm, windmills, solar panels, biomass or scare mongering will stop it. If you believe that you can enlist humanity in the kind of enterprise that would be required to halt the rise in CO2 levels in order to bestow a carbon-free world on a generation that will live one hundred years from now, I have a question for you. How much compassion do you see from humanity for the plight of the desperate refugees who are fleeing the war-torn Middle East RIGHT NOW?
We’re at the end of an interglacial. The trend from here until the next interglacial is going to be colder. The success of the AGW folks is on borrowed time. When the temperature drops below what it was when they first started screaming Anthropogenic Global Warming, their fifteen minutes of fame will be over and it will be as if they never were unless, of course, they can change the name of the game to Anthropogenic Global Cooling. That, however, won’t be nearly as lucrative because it will be hard to blame man for something completely expected and predictable even if man didn’t exist.
“…unless, of course, they can change the name of the game to Anthropogenic Global Cooling. That, however, won’t be nearly as lucrative because it will be hard to blame man for something completely expected and predictable even if man didn’t exist.”
Exactly what they are doing now. And I suspect that the coming Ice Age will also be blamed upon humans. The agenda is world control, and the bad guy always has to be something that can be controlled….blamed…designated as “evil or wrong”. In other words….humans.
March For Science To Bill Nye, The Science Guy: Take A Back Seat, You’re White.
http://www.dailywire.com/sites/default/files/styles/article_full/public/uploads/2017/02/gettyimages-633496276.jpg
I see your point, but the LEFT will likely gush all over them….LOL
Dr Ball requires us to find a motive which maintains the commitment of Michael Mann and his cohorts who always seem to be able to maintain the high ground.
The exposure of this motive would show the public how, their admittedly competent command of rhetoric, is baseless and is harming or about to harm the people of the planet should they be able to continue their influence of governments.
Dr Ball does not appear to be able to suggest a suitable motive.
I think Dr Ball is correct, so does anyone here care to suggest such motive that once exposed will lay these guys open so the public can see what they are?
Could it be that these guys are too smart to actually have a definable motive, or perhaps they all have different motives.
This would imply that there are a number of motives around that all end up with the sme outcome.
Personally I think a good method of laying these guys to rest could be the “retiring” of the United Nations> who has not ony the IPCC working hard on Global Warming but also has a large number of initiatives
If any one of these initiatives are successful, this will ultimately enable the United Nations to gain enough power to be independent on funds donated by member states because have its own income and therefore would be in the position to influence every state in the world without the impediment of having to ask these states for money.
In other words the UN would be out of control.
The UN’s attempt to introduce world wide carbon trading is an example. Had the UN been able to instigate world wide carbon trading and thus selecting itself as the “clearing house”, (which means clipping the ticket of every transaction), the above ambition could have been realised.
Now the UN is infiltrating our local governments by using Agenda 21, Agenda 2030 and a number of apparently other independent organisations such as ICLEI the Sustainabilty 100 cities initiative etc.
It is my belief that if the UN runs out of cash, which it may well do if Donald Trump can stop the US commitment, it will collapse like the filthy pack of cards and bureaucracy it is.
So long as we stand guard in order to prevent another similar bureaucracy from arising, people like Michael Mann and Al Gore will simply fade away, hopefully at the same time facing the music for their gross dishonesty.
Roger
http://www.thedemiseofchristchurch.com
(This blogs shows how the UN has infiltrated my country – I suggest that everyone checks the website of their local, state and federal government and search for some of the words mentioned above).
The AGW clown show has been able to make very effective use of a weapon that is systemically unavailable to skeptics who are honestly skeptical: Simplism.
Definition of simplism
: the act or an instance of oversimplifying; especially : the reduction of a problem to a false simplicity by ignoring complicating factors.
When anything is made sufficiently simple, the un-knowledgeable person can be able to understand the thing, thus whatever the thing is can now be considered a “truth.” Then the newly knowledgeable person can become a righteous defender of the truth.
So why is simplism unavailable for use by the honest skeptic? It’s the ‘honest’ part that is the killer.
Sommet De Quebec
Sommet De Quebec Sur Les Changements Climatiques, April 14, 2015
Invited Experts:
Paul Kovacs, IPCC and a founder of the Institute for Catastrophic Loss Reduction (insurance industry).
Alain Bourque, Executive Director of Ouranos, Montreal, (Innovation cluster on regional climatology).
Mark Kenber, CEO, The Climate Group (an international organization that operates at the sub-national level).
Christiana Figurers, UNFCCC
Summit also included carbon taxes and cap-and-trade.
Program at:
http://www.mddelcc.gouv.qc.ca/changementsclimatiques/sommet2015/pdf/programmeSCC_ang.pdf
OCCIAR/Ontario Centre for Climate Impacts and Adaptation Resources
Expert Panel includes:
Ian Burton, IPCC
Gord McBean, IPCC
Barry Smit, IPCC
Alain Bourque, Oranos, Montreal
And others
http://www.climateontario.ca/expert.php
Should be: Alain Bourque, Ouranos, Montreal.
Institute for Catastrophic Loss Reduction, Toronto, Canada
Staff Profiles include:
Paul Kovacs, Executive Director
Gordon McBean, Chair. Policy
http://www.iclr.org/aboutus/staffprofiles.html
Quebec
Quebec Premier’s Website, Toronto, July 8, 2015
Climate Summit of the Americas 2015, Toronto, Canada
‘Quebec adheres to the Under 2 Memorandum of Understanding on Global Climate Leadership’
Communique mentions:
Mark Kenber, CEO, The Climate Group
Al Gore
U.S. governors names
Quebec Summit on Climate Change, April 2015
http://www.premier-ministre.gouv.qc.ca/actualites/communiques/details-en.asp?idCommunique=2732
‘Proceedings Of The Quebec Summit On Climate Change’, April, 2015
60 pages with photos.
Includes promotion of carbon taxes.
Proceedings at:
http://www.mddelcc.gouv.qc.ca/changementsclimatiques/sommet2015/pdf/actes-en.pdf
Slow download.
State of California website
‘Subnational Global Climate Leadership Memorandum of Understanding’, May 19, 2015
Includes:
UN information
Subnational signers, U.S., Canada and others.
More at:
https://www.gov.ca.gov/docs/Under_2_MOU.pdf
—————————————————————————————————-
‘Climate Summit of the Americas Retrospective, July 7-9, 2015, Toronto, Canada
Includes:
Attendees: U.S., Canada and others.
Photos
Videos
Information at:
https://www.ontario.ca/page/climate-summit-americas-retrospective
CA.Gov
Office of Governor Edmund G. Brown,Jr.
‘Governor Brown, International Leaders Form Historic Partnership To Fight Climate Change’, 5-19-15
” … – Governor Edmund G. Brown,Jr. today signed a first-of-its-kind with international leaders from 11 other states and provinces, …”
More information at:
https://www.gov.ca.gov/news.php?id=18964
Has link to the Under-2-MOU
Under 2
Secretariat:
The Climate Group was announced as Secretariat of Under 2 Coalition at the Climate Conference (COP 21) in 2015.
Under 2 is an international organization that operates at the sub-national level.
Information at:
http://under2mou.org/secretariat
We have to realize that 80%+ of people are looking for an argument from authority. How often do we see even on this blog the “you can’t have an opinion you are not a climatologist”. Even science courses often emphasize the “believe it it is in the textbook approach” not training students on the experimentation and evidence that has led us to our conclusions. Even when copious evidence is made available I have had students fall back on the authority of their parents and pastors. There are many people out there who will believe what they want to believe or are told what to believe and heaping up more facts just heaps up more frustration – on us. Even the physician on the panel that lauded his own skills as a scientist fell back to a simplistic argument that melting ice meant warming, not hearing that the lukewarmers were not denying warming but questioning the effects of CO2 and whether the warming was catastrophic. Even if you go full consensus and carefully pick the bones of the IPCC report you find that many of their own graphs are getting closer and closer to lukewarming, however their interpretations still tend to the extremism that will guarantee more funding and meetings.
“We have to realize that 80%+ of people are looking for an argument from authority.”
I think that is the key right there as to why the alarmists have the advantage over the skeptics. The alarmists have “the consensus” in their corner, to their advantage.
If you are not an expert on a subject and you don’t have the time or inclination to do an indepth study of the subject, then what is your alternative to figuring out what is correct and what is not correct. Well, the easiest way is to find out the opinions of others on the subject, and then you adopt the predominant opinion as your own because you assume that if a lot of people believe in something, it has a good chance of being correct.
The alarmists have every scientific organization on the planet pushing this CAGW narrative, and they have created some convincing lies like the “97 percent” consensus, and the MSM is fully onboard, so it’s no wonder they have an advantage in the public square.
Even so, most Americans are not concerned about CAGW, if you go by the polls.
I think Trump being in Office will help this situation considerably. He can change public opinion easier than anyone else, if for no other reason than his actions will stimulate the dialogue. He just has to stand his ground, and people will rally around him.
The one thing the CAGW promoters don’t have anymore is a President of the United States pushing this narrative. Now, we have one pushing back on it. That will make a lot of difference.
Okay, I just looked at the links you posted. This is the most BIZARRE group of weirdos imaginable! LOL
Talk about the “Beclowning of Science Fair”!
Nye fits perfectly, especially in his beta male outfit.
The “Science without Feminism intersectional racism” graphic. I needed to see no more. This is the most bigoted tripe imaginable. Where do these Moonbats come from?
Thanks for laugh. I just can’t believe these people are as racist, screwed up and anti-science as could possibly be imagined…..
“beta male outfit”. Please. You grant yourself no credibility adopting that sort of language.
The Moonbats have adopted Virtue Signalling as the new status symbol. Personally, I liked yuppies better when they just bought a Benz. Now, it’s “my thoughts are more elevated than yours” every. single. minute. until the rest of us could puke. The way to CUT IT OFF is to NOT give them your money in the form of clicks, ticket sales, downloads, etc. CHOKE THEM OUT financially and let them know we are not amused!
Unfortunately they will NOT ‘lose all credibility’ where it counts in the short term at least, in the mind of the broader public or at least that portion that leans left and votes.
The reason for that lies in the way Mann went about his mission before the committee. He treated it as a marketing exercise which is what it always has been. It is a politically motivated marketing campaign, it is not a scientific exercise.
And employing a less than honest simplism in conjunction with the ‘KISS’ principle has always proven to be an effective marketing tool.
I’m siding with Michael Crichton here. The alarmists are riding the tide of a religion that very closely identifies with judeo/christian There was a perfect world, man has fallen, man must repent, follow the prophets (profits) and heros et.al. Skeptics will always be fighting that tide. Credibility vs credibility is not going to sway that fight. Based on 20 years of alarmism being wrong about virtually everything, yet still here and viable, I think its going to take an utter exhaustion of will (or more likely funds) before people finally sit down and mutter “well that was stupid; We had reliable power that we decided to make un-reliable because the prophets told us it would be good for us”
You’ve got it, M. Just look at the ramp up renewables are still undergoing , even since Trump was elected. Utility companies are installing them at an ever faster pace and the Commissions are approving the expenditures. Part of this has been in reaction to the anticipated clout of the CPP. Utilities are not pulling back, in spite of the difficulties the CPP is in.
Tim Ball asked “what is the motive?” no one has answered. Is it really “noble cause corruption” ? or just a new religion, as predicted by Aldous Huxley. AH said that the times are ready for a new global religion. The only way to defeat a religion is with another religion. What will that be?
Tim Ball asked “what is the motive?” no one has answered. Is it really “noble cause corruption” ? or just a new religion, as predicted by Aldous Huxley. AH said that the times are ready for a new global religion. The only way to defeat a religion is with another religion. What will that be?
Aphan: Won’t happen.
The “March for Science” is never going to happens in the Public School Systems in America because that would require a Congressional mandate being passed by Congress …… and that ain’t gonna happen.
Anyway, to wit:
NOT SO, ……. the “climate war” must be won in the Public Schools ….. because that is the per se “breeding ground” of where “the minds of working and middle-class people” were and still are being nurtured (brainwashed) into believing the “junk science” of CAGW.
The Public Schools are per se “graduating”, each and every year, tens-of-millions of “new” believers in/of the silly science of CAGW, which is a far, far greater number than the non-believers in/of CAGW could ever possibly hope to “re-educate”.
So, until and/or unless, the Science curriculum being forcibly taught in the Public Schools is purged of all said “junk science” garbage and “Political Correct” nonsense, …… the “climate war” within the populace will never be won by the real scientists and their supporters.
Everyone should go and read Scott Adams’ (of Dilbert fame) blog for comprehension. A trained hypnotist, he describes in great detail how the art of “persuasion” works, including the major upshot that persuasion based on facts and data will lose EVERY time to persuasion based on emotional hyperbole that triggers the brain stem. Why do you think the MSM uses FEAR to sell practically everything? Apocalyptic scenarios are ALWAYS believable to people because they’ve been programmed for 2,000 years with the Bible, which might be the very first “Narrative.” And you think all the “dystopian” moves and games are an ACCIDENT?
The fact that the Republicans have gotten this far this fast with rolling back the mythical nonsense tells me we don’t have all that much to fear. Frankly, the American people are now on to exactly how much they’ve been hoodwinked by “narratives” in the media for 25 years, and bullshit is no longer selling so well in Peoria.
Aphan, you’ve missed the point of this article. “They”have no credibility now, with anyone who understands the science OR the politics of CAGW. That includes the readership of WUWT (excluding Griff). The other 6,999,000,000 people on the earth think they are perfectly credible. Many people don’t care about global warming because to them it’s just noise on CNN with no impact on their lives, but they still think Bill Nye is THE science guy.
The most lucid post I have read on WUWT in years. Simply put, the Motive is to promote a far-reaching leftist agenda. Leftists points of view are widely popular, especially in the mainstream media, so the AGW meme is following/helping the current. As for President Trump, AFAIK, he has not said a word about climate change or global warming since he took power. Is he, even him, afraid?
I think few here like to admit it, but Mark Morano is probably the best real fighter we have on our side.
Add Steyn and Inhofe to that list. Lone warriors with a lot of guts. What is missing is a group of real scientists with the same resolve and attitude as the main group on the other side. Trump also has to step up now that he has the bully stage. Obama couldn’t give a speech without his real-manmade-happening now-dangerous line. Every time! Lurch chimed right in. Instead we have Trump (Evonka-Garret?) and Tillerson. And now Pruitt, who was eaten alive on the weekend. It is now or never. We have been beaten to a pulp in the public arena: that is where we have to fight back. Thanks Tim – you are absolutely correct.
“Add Steyn and Inhofe to that list.”
Add Cruz, too.
Utter nonsense. I get so sick of the left bashing. It is the damn scientists’ fault not the fault of politicians right or left. Hell the right wing politicians are pushing the CO2 agenda as well.
Academia has always had a left-wing bias. That is why so many “scientists” are behaving as political activists and not scientists. Left has traditionally been supportive of environmental concerns and challenged uncontrolled business interests. That is why the CO2 CAGW myth has become a badge of political self-identity: if you consider yourself left-wing you are whole heartedly and unquestioningly into wailing about CO2.
The left-wing bias of academia may be explained: In college these students excell but in a market economy they find out that -in order to make money- other expertise is needed than their college lectures provided. Therefore, to restore their succes, they want to model society to a college which is an authorian, centrally planned structure (like the communist party)
David,
That is a very astute observation. And well articulated as well. Thank you for your insight.
David (and Paul),
The right and left politicians are politicians. Politicians (in general) will do what they have always done … they will act in their own self interest AND will act to please their adherents.
The left adherents are ignorantly encouraging the left politicians to save the world. The non-elected right side of the political spectrum is not jumping on the CAGW band wagon, and are not encouraging the right politicians to do stupid things wrt environment saving.
If you choose to align yourself with the ignorant adherents of the left side politicians then consider yourself bashed (as being ignorant, greedy, stupid, or whatever). If you stand up among your left friends and tell them that the CAGW bandwagon jumpers (left and right) are harming society in general, then congratulations and a nice pat on the back for you.
Paul,
sorry … I missed David’s post.
my above response is only meant for davidmills.
And most people on here think you are right, BernardP, including me. And because we don’t control the MSM and most people believe that by and large people are honest (because by and large they themselves are) and that applies especially to scientists (because when you say “scientist” they think Einstein or Galileo or Faraday or perhaps Hubble or even Sagan — or Bill Nye?!) so we come across like a bunch of paranoids who don’t have a clue what we are talking about.
And since cAGW was never about science from the beginning we are fighting the wrong battle. Who cares a rat’s ass about global warming if none of the things they are predicting come to pass? 2016 was the “hottest year evah!”? So what? Are we having more storms? Worse storms? Is sea level rise out of control? Is drought increasing? Will anything we do have any measurable effect on temperature? On climate?
Since the answer to all those questions is ‘no’, why are we fighting a war that doesn’t exist? Much better to blindside them on things people understand than try to explain the greenhouse effect or back radiation or whether CO2 absorbs infra-red radiation. Warm is better. The deserts are greening. Even 10° of warming is irrelevanf if the “normal” temperature is -40!
Pester the media with provable facts until they are forced to pay attention. Challenge every article and every patently ignorant (as in not understanding the science) comment with cold facts. Debunk especially the idea that “these things are happening now”. Make the people who make those claims back them up.
And with the greatest respect to Dr Ball, less of the wordy articles that rehearse stuff we all know because we have read it a dozen times before. You’re telling us nothing new! Sorry, but there it is!
You miss the point. Sea level rise since the LIA isn’t accelerating, yet everyone thinks it is. Storms aren’t increasing, yet everyone thinks they are. Corals aren’t dying due to CO2 (one of my favorites) yet by God they are dying and everyone thinks it’s because of CO2. Ocean acidification isn’t a problem (at this point) but everyone thinks it is. The arctic has warmed before but everyone thinks today is unprecedented. Increasing warmth isn’t a problem in the big picture but everyone thinks it is.
For every fact you bring up they can bring up 20 newspaper articles or science papers that say the opposite. NPR says it. PBS says it.
We aren’t up against something that a couple of fact-checkers can sort out. We’re up against a well-organized and well-funded PR campaign, also known as a propaganda machine. They’re laughing at us. We’re just using science! That’s all we got! Too funny.
Don132, well stated and absolutely right you are.
The literal fact is, …… there is only one (1) way or method to “fight” back against “a well-organized and well-funded PR campaign” …… and that is to launch demeaning and/or embarrassing personal attacks against anyone touting the fear-mongering “junk science” claims and false accusations associated with CO2 causing Anthropogenic Global Warming (CAGW).
Embarrass them in front of “God and everyone” by demanding they reveal their source(s) of income, their educational expertise and their primary/personal reason for believing/supporting the CAGW meme.
And “OUT SHOUT THEM” when they refuse to address the questions they are asked. In other words, put an abrupt “halt” to their asinine actions of verbally quoting of lengthy memorized commentary of little to no importance other than to garner favoritism from the miseducated, gullible audience.
He removed the climate change info from the WH website. He is dismantaling all of the EPA regs that he can. Sorry he doesn’t walk on water and could not have won WW2 in a hour, which seems to be the criteria here for success. Next time, run a diety for the position. Maybe that will work.
The last guy was a diety, just ask his disciples.
Asking the disciples is not a valid way of determining if one is a deity or not. One supposes Hillary’s disciples believed she too was a deity and evidence indicates the same of Obama.
I’ve posted a link to this epic poem of truth written by Rudyard Kipling in 1919 here before. Seems like it just keep applying over and over and over! If you’ve never read the full thing, please do. It deserves to be known. I’ve posted the last two stanzas because I honestly think that no matter what we do, the cycle will just continue forever.
The Gods of the Copybook Headings-
…
“As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began.
That the Dog returns to his Vomit and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool’s bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire;
And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return! ”
http://www.kiplingsociety.co.uk/poems_copybook.htm
Leftist POV is widely popular in the MSM, but practically nowhere else except for the Acela blue bubble and Californication. Take a good look at the vast red in-between; Trump won something like 90% of all counties across the USA. People have HAD IT with the Left’s wacko indoctrination, esp. of their children.
“As for President Trump, AFAIK, he has not said a word about climate change or global warming since he took power. Is he, even him, afraid?”
I don’t think Trump is afraid. Although Trump hasn’t said anything about CAGW specifically, his actions are reversing the actions taken by the Obama administration. As long as he does that, he doesn’t need to say much.
The horrible fact has been that the Democrats have much more skill at publicity circuses.Three lukewarmers and a zealot tends to go to the zealot.
Yes skilled at publicity circuses, and the fact that they’ve been spoon-feeding our kids lots of propaganda for a generation now so that generation largely can’t think independently any more (yes there are exceptions). If we don’t change that, the war on pseudo-science will never be won. Government schools (K-12 and now beyond) and most of the media controlled by the same ones who want to control the behavior of the populace–the reason science is losing doesn’t seem like rocket science to me (and I am a rocket scientist, by the way).
Spot on. The agenda is about money. Who has it and how to get it? The AWG proponents sold their souls and have been rewarded with grant dollars to stay relevant…because who would ever believe that the people’s representatives would sell them out for…money? Every excuse is given. It’s for the greater good. It’s for the children. They use a dash of fear mongering and a sprinkle of warm images of children and wildlife at play, to permanently embed themselves into the hearts and minds of our youth. There are at least 3 generations of K – 12 students who have been indoctrinated this way who will carry this catastrophic lie far into the future.
If you want to change the world all you have to do is pay enough money to have it taught in public schools, which are monopolized by teachers unions who’ve sold their souls for money, too. That same tactic must be used to bring out the truth. Stop focusing on the the liars and start focusing on developing story books, children’s cartoons and movies, tailored curriculum for elementary, middle school, high school, and higher-ed, put on family friendly events that include music and food…get started on this now, because the tipping point is only one generation away.
“and the fact that they’ve been spoon-feeding our kids lots of propaganda for a generation now”
Now I’m not a rocket scientist, nor any other type of scientist for that matter, I’m a self confessed (frequently on WUWT) layman.
Two thing strike me about your post, one from our propaganda fed children. The problem with indoctrinating children is that they grow up and start to question their ‘beliefs’, we have all done it.
It only takes a single trigger to have them distrust or question their indoctrination. So we have an entire generation of people, growing up now, who are ready and willing to listen to alternatives.
Second, I have followed WUWT and many other sceptical blogs for some years now and the common theme between them all is for well educated, knowledgeable, scientist’s to delve deep into the science of a single, minuscule subject. Charts and graphs, citations, quotations and frequently utterly confusing information which is meaningless to the man in the street. I’m used to it, but even I gloss over most of it and find more understandable information to read.
My point is, and I have made this before on here, is that the man in the street only has so much time, only so much capacity for analysis, and will be switched off by the informations scientist’s on here take for granted.
Delivering messages must be done in small, bite sized, digestible portions if the public are to be made aware they are being duped.
By all means, discuss everything on WUWT but somehow deliver some short conclusions the layman can carry round in his head to question the alarmists when they encounter them. One favourite of mine is NASA’s study that found the world had greened by 14% over the last 30 years. The collective negatives, imagined or otherwise, of AGW do not even come close to the (net) 9% benefit actually measured by NASA. Even the paper is easy to read, and one of the authors himself points out their study shows two continents the size of mainland USA of greening. Factual, easy to remember and utterly astonishing.
For all it’s benefits to the scientific community, and humanity, WUWT fails on one simple concept, It’s headlines invariably attack the alarmists.
Political and media headlines almost always start off with ‘their’ statement “The world is Melting”, seemingly negative, but they go on to justify it, badly or otherwise. Politicians like Trump succeeded by making statements like “I’ll get the coal workers back to work”, “We’ll wipe out ISIS”, “We’ll pour money into defence” (all paraphrased). Whilst his intention was to discredit Hilary on every occasion he could, his headlines remained the same and were repeated often. Positive, single line, memorable messages.
Whilst I’m not a scientist, I have been in Sales and Marketing for many years and if you’re going to sell your product or service to someone, the first thing you don’t do is call your competition crap.
You make your own positive statements about your own product, whilst fully understanding the weaknesses of your competition. That’s precisely what Trump (and Nigel Farage of UKIP, the driver of Brexit) did. Then when in front of your customer you can do a demolition job on your competition, perhaps not as blatantly as Trump, but the opportunity is there.
All the sceptic blog sites should be finding the material to support their case and making a headline of it. Then in the text, demolish the opposition by making comparisons or emphasising the strengths of their argument.
Dr Ball is right. This is precisely what the alarmists have done, whilst sceptics maintain a naive belief in the science doing the job for them, because they understand the science better than the tactics.
Sceptics can’t win this debate when delivering science to a population who largely don’t understand science. Get the headlines out there “Sea levels are not rising more than expected” Then go on to explain that sea levels aren’t even consistent across the planet. Or how about “Only one single hurricane recorded in the Southern Hemisphere and the seasons nearly over” which was of course true until Australia was hit by one. But it doesn’t matter, the statement was true at the time and resonates with the public. The headline is what makes them stop and think.
Yet even those complaining sent their kids to those schools. People WILLINGLY and OBEDIENTLY sent their children to be brainwashed. I CANNOT blame the schools.
Speak for yourself, Sheri: I certainly did not, despite the current climate which makes it far easier to send kids to the
government indoctrination campspublic schools than to private ones, especially for those on the lower end of the economic spectrum.You’d be surprised about the kids and skeptical thinking. My nephew is in a maritime academy where everyone there is unabashedly career-minded, and most of those careers intersect with fossil fuels and the international movement of same. He tells me MOST of the students lean conservative, and it is a no-holds-barred meritocracy with NO “snowflake” behavior invited. There’s no room for emotional incontinence or mythical thinking on the bridge or in the engine room of a ship. I have to believe that many other STEM based schools lean likewise. We just hear about the trust-fund babies in liberal arts who’ll never have to worry about making a living because they won’t live long enough to spend their parents’ money.
Smokey: Apologies to you, sir. You are apparently one of the ones who understood the damage being done and took action to protect your own children. Congratulations.
Sure ,that explains why we have a Republican President, Senate, House and 33 out of 50 governors.
Publicity circuses are not that useful, ultimately, in winning elections. My statement is based on watching C-Span (insomnia is a bitch), and the Democrats coordinate much better with the witnesses they call than the Republicans. The circus aspect is in calling people look good on TV clips, who fit the narrative they established while setting up the hearing, not anyone who actually has anything useful to say.
It’s not that democrats are particularly effective but I was stunned about inept and ineffective the Rep members on this panel were.
I would have thought that someone capable of winning political office would a fairly sharp and forceful character but they were so mild and unfocussed Mann went largely unchallenged as did the 97% falsehood.
Pointman has some strategic articles on how to effectively fight asymmetric political war on global warming/ climate alarmism.
e.g. THE CLIMATE WARS
WHY WOULD ANYONE BELIEVE A SINGLE WORD COMING OUT OF THEIR MOUTH?
Lindzen has already identified the key to ending the Climate Hustle.
Cut the climate studies funding – 80% or more. The climate hustle is fueled by the hustlers’ need to feed the master monster they created. The NSF and DOE climate money need sto be cut drasrically. There is no alternative.
Dr. Ball,
I have suggested to many people in the climate blog world that a “boot camp” is necessary to train us in effective methods to refute the CAGW narrative in an effective way.
We’re out here, willing and need direction. I for one would pay my own way.
We know a great deal from reading and discussing the issues with friends and foes alike. Many of us are passionate about the truth and science, but we are anything but trained and organized how to tackle the exact issues you elucidated so well in this article.
I’m writing this in the hopes that you and others like you will start posting how we can get together to get the facts and the message across to the wider public. Perhaps Heartland or others can organize these types of trainings at various times and places around the US and Canada. I’m a retired medical professional, currently living in Australia and would even fly back to the US for such an event.
Thanks for all you do!
you make an excellent point!
after all the church of gore runs “training” for its gullibles
and sadly they have had success
it needs be countered
Gore is far more dedicated, as are his “gullibles” than many on the skeptic side. He put money, time and reputation into building his empire. He built a power base first. He WORKED for this. Are skeptics willing to do the same?
First, let’s determine if anyone really understands how this works. The message cannot be magically erased, the “enemy” is not going to crawl away in defeat any time soon, and it’s a LONG WAR. From what I read here, training is useless because seldom does anyone want to spend the time and effort in YEARS of work for what is not even a certain outcome. Until there is evidence that enough people really understand this, boot camp is a complete waste.
Scott
I agree! I’ve often looked to articles on WUWT as tools to counter-indoctrinate people but the articles are generally so long, convoluted, and filled with hedges against uncertainty that the typical luke-warmist will quickly set them aside. We need quick, concise, pointed hit pieces – elevator pitches – to win the hearts of an uninformed populace.
Refuting CAGW logically will not work; the People who can be convinced logically, mostly have been now. The People we need are the people who bought CAGW. When People buy things, they always buy based on emotion, then later they rationalize their decision. The emotion that has been most effective for the Alarmists have been Fear and Altruism, so we need to say things that make the Alarmists look selfish and manipulative and ideally do it without saying they are selfish and manipulative.
An eternal game of “King of the Emotional Appeal” mountain.
The reason that there is the perception that Warming is still “winning” is that THIS IS NOT A SCIENTIFIC FIGHT! IT NEVER HAS BEEN!!!
The science on the warmist side is, EVEN TO THEM, nothing but the necessary “blah blah blah” which will allow them to grab hold of the political and financial power they seek. As such it can be endlessly calibrated to mesh with populist left wing talking points that will sound good to people who don’t know too much and who are indoctrinated in the cult of left with thought. All of the “Scientific” talk is just more “blah blah blah” with them – it will have no effect, it will NEVER have an effect. Nice to have it in your back pocket, but THAT IS NOT THE KIND OF FIGHT THIS IS.
This is a POLITICAL fight, it has to be waged by POLITICAL means. Anyone who thinks it is just about science is guaranteed to lose.
Political wins are very fleeting. If your goal is to temporarily derail this, you may reach that goal. If it’s permanence you want, not a chance.
To Dr. Balls point:
David Horowitz of the David Horowitz Freedom Center put it simply. (And I paraphrase).
“When there is a debate and the LEFT calls you a homophobe, an anti-Semite a denier and the Right’s response is to call them a Liberal. Who do you think is going to win that argument?”
how idiotic of mr horowitz to characterize insult as argument.
You missed the point. He is not characterizing insult as argument, he is stating that the very nice guy Republican being slandered is.
Get a Republican with a better answer next time.
Agreed. When people use that kind of rhetoric, the answer is to stop being polite and call them out for it. Label them as promoters of fear and hate. Point out that they offer no real answers and only wish to smear their opponents. Declare that shouting down all those that disagree with you is undemocratic and the tactics of a tyrant. Then challenge the people to not let them get away with it.
But here’s another fact to consider- almost no one, and I mean literally almost no one, who is an “uninformed citizen” will ever see that House Hearing. I don’t know anyone that watches House Hearings for fun or entertainment. I don’t even know a lot of people who still have traditional “TV” packages…most of our friends and neighbors use ROKU or something else and simply download the channels they want…the US Government channel isn’t popular. Outside of those of us who are interested in this issue, on either side, I really don’t think we have to worry about your average citizen tuning in and being influenced either way by Mr Mann’s performance. I would bet $1,000 that I could ask every single person I meet for the next 7 days if they know who Michael E. Mann is and not one of them would be able to tell me.
Unfortunately, the mind-shaping media accepts what Mann says without question.
More accurately, he is simply spouting what they want him to say, which is why the media are his biggest cheerleaders.
The point is for the left and its faithful acolytes to say anything and do anything which enable them to achieve financial and political control.
But here’s more to back up my point-no one trusts the media anymore. So if Mann has the press eating out of his hand, the American people aren’t buying a thing he says….
“Only 6 percent of people say they have a great deal of confidence in the press, about the same level of trust Americans have in Congress, according to a new survey released on Sunday.”
“The study mirrors past reports that found the public’s trust in mass media has reached historic lows, according to data gathered by the Media Insight Project, a partnership between The Associated Press-NORC Center for Public Affairs Research and the American Press Institute. The report found faith in the press was just slightly higher than the 4 percent of people who said they trusted Congress.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trust-in-media_us_57148543e4b06f35cb6fec58
Now that’s a weird one Aphan – we don’t trust Congress because of what the main stream media reports about Congress!
No, we don’t trust congress because we don’t trust congress.
We don’t trust the media, because we don’t trust the media.
If the media is pushing “Mann”, then because we distrust the media, we distrust their message about him.
We also don’t trust climate scientists as much as people like MANN say/think we do.
http://www.pewinternet.org/2016/10/04/the-politics-of-climate/
Only “liberal dems” seem to be buying the climate change crap. Almost every other group clearly thinks scientists don’t know enough, have no answers, and doesn’t buy the “consensus” messaging.
JohnWho-
We don’t trust our “institutions” anymore. And that’s a very good thing at this point in time.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/americans-dont-trust-their-institutions-anymore/
It is important to be patient in all things, I have lived a long life, droughts, floods , hurricanes,droughts , floods , hurricanes. My life experience, Motorcycles I have ridden for 60 years, one tends to feel the weather on a motorcycle. The time has come the Walrus said, to speak of many things.Maybe some one will understand that . What we have in front of us is an anathema to the AGW mob, for we have cooling, as this happens the rats as always will desert a sinking ship. Old Sol in all his glory is having his usual sabbatical it would seem that he is very tired and needs at least three cycles for a holiday.This LIA will be classed as caused by man and his evil pollution of CO2, Mr Mann in all his Pomp will have a theory as to why the northern hemisphere is freezing its butt off.Me I will be too old to care or dead but laughing my head off from my place of rest.
Engineer , inventor I was, now I look at this stuff and think this generation need a war ,a real life threatening one, one that could change the world , something to put their energies into, they are all rudderless and stupid at the moment.
Aphan said: “Only “liberal dems” seem to be buying the climate change crap. Almost every other group clearly thinks scientists don’t know enough, have no answers, and doesn’t buy the “consensus” messaging.”
Which specific other groups are you referring to?
“science” is a misleading term. Some things we know well such as mechanics, electricity, energy but many other topics are subject to investigation and have many assumptions and uncertainties such as the climate and the human immune system. Science is what may be quantitized and researched, So, honest scientists always have to add the state of their “science” . The climate alarmistst present the most dramatic forecasts as “settled” which is fraud.
Then DEAL with it. STOP WHINING about it and deal with it. As my psych professor said “OUGHT TO IS MEANINGFUL ONLY IN DISCUSSIONS OF MORALITY. WHAT ‘IS’ IS WHAT YOU HAVE TO WORK WITH.” Now work with it.
Wise words. But Bill Clinton will never get it. He is still working on one “is”.
Aphan @ur momisugly 7:35 pm
I would bet $1,000 that I could ask every single person I meet for the next 7 days if they know who Michael E. Mann is and not one of them would be able to tell me.
BINGO!
But every single person knows what Global Warming/Climate Change is, and has an opinion on it. And some will have strong opinions.
There are two main thought processes in the minds of many people.
1. Anything man does has to be messing something up.
So they ‘believe’ man made climate change. Not because of any facts. Certainly not because of any individual study they have done. Simply because the word ‘man’ is in it and someone tells them it is so.
2. Government control provides them with absolution of any personal responsibility. By handing the problem, any and all problems, off to the government to take care of, they can experience their ‘feel good’ moment without having to break a sweat or get their hands dirty.
This modern day replacement for religion, this combination guilt trip/guilt free big government altar they worship at is a puzzle. Their version of original sin is that there are too many people all doing the same thing. But their salvation is placed in too big a government forcing people to do all the same thing.
It is such a swirling mass of contradiction yet they are deaf, dumb and blind to its faults.
And yet the American people elected Donald Trump as President…out of the blue….as a complete and utter shock to the left. Because they had no idea that the “rest” of the country is NOT like them, does not think like them, does not worship at the Government alter nor suckle at it’s teats. The American people gave the progressive liberals a big old middle finger on Voting Day. Whether Trump ends up being a hero or the worst President of all time doesn’t bother me in the least…my faith in Americans who want nothing to do with the left’s agenda has been restored.
The American people did not elect Trump. He won due to the vagaries of the electoral college where sometimes dirt has more voting power than people. That is just the way federalism works sometimes. Unfortunately it is happening much too often these last few electoral cycles.
David, the rules are the electoral college, not popular votes. Neither major candidate ran on trying for popular votes. Besides, if one wishes to get egregiously partisan, Hillary’s popular vote margin was entirely from California, where the margin might actually have some live US citizens among them.
David: Thank you for referring to your fellow Americans as “dirt”. I’m sure that’s a winning strategy—no, wait, that’s what the loser in the race did.
All Trump has to do is get this economy rolling at 4% or so growth. That happens, a lot of people go back to work, a lot of investors make money, a lot of foreigners come grovelling for a place at the table. At that point, Trump’s a hero no matter whose sacred cow he kills. He’ll have done what no Democrat can do, and that means more to REAL Americans, most of whom vote their pocketbook, than all the leftist air-castle issues combined. Keep the faith, Deplorables! 😉
@davidgmillsatty: You say:
(My bold). Vagaries, David? I think the founding fathers had a lot more than a vague idea of how to prevent a tyranny of the popular vote controlling government. It gives the small states a voice and doesn’t see them trampled by the big states. IMHO.
David, (Griff?) it is not unfortunate, it is by design. A very clever design intended to ensure that the population in a few major cities did not overwhelm the rest of the country. It worked wonders in this case, wherein 90 percent of the country by counties voted for the winning candidate.
There are kids graduating from High School this year who have experienced no significant global warming in there life time. However, they have all been taught that catastrophic global warming is indeed occurring. The sad fact is that their teachers sincerely believe this to be the case.
I am about to turn 67 and I could not tell if the planet has warmed. What I can tell is that there are far more people and far fewer animals. I might be beginning to see that there are more plants as well (hard to say for sure on that).
Exactly what my children were taught 35 years ago and I fight it every day. Whole generation have been brainwashed with leftist collectivist anti capitalist ideals. It will take generations for the rampaging socialism to fall out of favour. About the same time as they run out of OPM. (Other people’s money).
Canab: another serious question is will they run out of “opium”?
There parents sent them to those schools.
Funny, for 35 years kids have been indoctrinated with “anti-capitalism,” but we’ve sure produced a world-class crop of robber barons in that time–Gates, Bezos, Musk, Zuckerberg, Jobs, Thiel . . . any questions?
It is NATURAL to want to get ahead. In my horse herd, anybody who can eat his lunch and 5 other guys’ too will try and do so. NEVER forget that Darwin still drives the bus–and don’t think they’re not aware of that at Yale.
yeah? well ‘debating the science’ is a losing game just like a bull chasing the cape.
here’s what wins:
nobody has a right to take your stuff.
simply assert ownership of your life, your mind, your body, the product of your labor and make the buck stop with YOU.
until you argue ‘rights’ and defend them, you are negotiating submission and that’s all there is to it.
So what is the solution? A French revolution? 1% of the people have half the stuff and that percentage is growing not declining.
solution? as in ‘to a problem’?
those who wish to submit solve their problem.
those who are self possessed mind their own business.
in this way, nearly 100% have exactly 0% of my stuff.
and that’s all i need to be concerned with.
david: Maybe pointing out how difficult it is for some people to not inject irrelevant political ideology into every discussion? Then move back to the topic.
They are not keeping you from getting stuff. You are.
David,
Do you think having stuff is a good thing or a bad thing?
There are a lot of people that have less than 1% of the stuff that you have … do you think the “solution” for that should have anything to do the amount of stuff that you have?
@davidgmillsatty said:
That shouldn’t surprise anyone;
if 20% own 80%, you would expect that 5% own 64 and finally 1% should own 51%! That’s just the way the world works and has been for a very long time.
You get ahead in this world by putting your effort into the 20% of the things you do that produce the 80% of the results and pay your assistants to do the 80% that only garner 20% of the results.
I would not be so gloomy about the outcome of this hearing. There were positive points scored against the AGW story as can be seen from some of the comments from the those asking the questions. Notably Rohrabacher’s withering remarks aimed at Mann for his use of the word denier, and the several different papers added into the record during the hearing. Specifically, there was a group of four different papers which explained why the 97% claim was junk science which were then added into the record. When the next hearing comes up you can bet that the 97% claim will be more fully explored.
For the first time in any of the hearings which I have listened to it was evident that many more of the representatives asking the questions were better prepared to ask the right questions. That is something to consider as worthwhile, imo. Then there was no question that Mann got partially roasted in the last half of the hearing, which he richly deserved. I think that Mann’s sanctimonious attitude versus the honest approach of the other 3 stood out as well. Mann was the only one who brought up negative comments, while the others refused to enter that realm. Christy highlighted the negativity of Mann by refusing to even make response when asked how he had been personally attacked over the years, stating that it was not worthy of his time to respond anymore to the negativity aimed at him over the years. That was a good move..
Thank you for the more upbeat comment.
+1. I think Christy is a very compelling speaker — his brains and integrity shine through every time.
“It is in showing how the science was created to achieve a predetermined result, namely the demonization of CO2”.
Precisely.
Give me a good and rational reason/argument for me to change my mind about something, and I will, immediately.
Show how I was blinded or hood-winked about something.
Merely laying out the ‘facts’ isn’t sufficient, but show me were and why I formed my flawed opinion, is what is need.
And, as I read the above article….agreeing all the time, I was thinking…what about a tag team of Steyn and Morano. I wonder how the proceedings at a hearing would unfold.
As I recall, Steyn did fairly well last time.
It’s great to see this sort of high-level thinking happening on WUWT.
That said, having read this site over a few years now, I’m admittedly a little bit concerned that the WUWT approach seems rather constrained to “normal” science. Attempts to discuss more “revolutionary” questions about assumptions seem to oftentimes receive an unfriendly audience here.
But, this in part sets up the very problem: The public’s interaction with science favors using it as a system of knowledge, whereas actual scientists are challenged with also using it as a tool for thought, within a context of questions, speculations and claims which commonly lack definitive answers, and which is much broader than the mainstream science journalists typically report.
What if we were to simply teach the public that there are numerous challenges to textbook theory across the disciplines?
What if we taught them about the ongoing controversies? … The patterns they share, the way in which the topic is covered by science journalists, the claims on both sides, instances in the past when consensus was plainly wrong …
What if we simply exposed the public to the best critiques of modern science which have ever been published, by systematically going through all of this published literature?
What if we taught the public to track scientific controversies on their own, collectively — without the scientific community?
These are the ideas which inspire my efforts at Controversies of Science. I have a lot of respect for the work here, and I’ve learned a lot from it. That said, I think it is a mistake to leave out revolutionary science because once you start tracking controversies, it becomes apparent that many of the most important disputes in the sciences occur at the level of frameworks and assumptions.
If the public is being asked to vote on such things, they should have to contend with the full complexity of modern science — not just consensus science.
Tim,
Your post is lucid and accurate.
There is one point I would make to dispel some if the gloom, however.While it is true that Gore and Mann appear to have won the war, every opinion poll of public attitudes has concern about climate change at or near last. A good example is
myworld2015.org.This is the UN survey of public issues and coming in dead last is concern about climate change.
This tells me the public understands there is no ‘ climate crisis’ and don’t believe the alarmists.
This post seems overly pessimistic. The public doesn’t care about climate change. The propaganda machine advocating that we spend a fortune for little to no benefit is losing. The current administration has instructed EPA and DOE to remove climate change from their agenda. I watched part of Dr. Mann’s testimony. He was clearly a pompous ass and not a scientist looking for the truth. Is the war over? I don’t think so. But the truth is winning and it is not on Dr. Mann’s side.
Dr Mann is one of the best allies the Skeptics have.
Every time he opens his mouth, he manages to put more people off.
I suspect the CAGW crowd wince every time he speaks.
I wouldn’t call this “winning.”
All the millions and millions of dollars the envirostalinists and eviroprofiteers have stuffed into the Global Warming — Save the Planet — Climate Change — What -EVER machine paid them back exactly this:
Public Opinion
Joe: So, like climate change is happening.
Maria: But NO ONE gives a rat’s toothpick.
Truth stands the test of time.
You see, even with NO public education, the hoax would be unraveling.
For, the burden of proof is and has always been on the climate hustlers.
The public may not be highly knowledgeable about the AGW topic. They can, however, given enough time, spot a con-game.
Time’s up.
CO2 UP. WARMING STOPPED.
Game over.
************************************
And! Now that TRUMP WON 🙂
the climate clowns will soon be out of a job:
the circus tent is coming down.
Patience.
It is just a matter of time.
***************************************
Re: Wallaces “to no avail” remark — He is overlooking what would have happened BUT FOR the fine work of the Baliuniases, Balls, Wattses, Salbys, Carters, Moncktons, LaFramboises, DeNovas, Koutsoyiannises, Hal Lewises, Tisdales, and on and on of the science realist side…
Oh, no, Mr. Wallace. You are mistaken. MUCH has been done. Disaster has been prevented.
Envirostalinism is on the wane.
Enviroprofiteering is teetering on the edge of bankruptcy.
All because some good people did NOT remain silent.
Thank you, one and ALL of you — and YOU, TOO, YOU WONDERFUL WUWT SCIENCE GIANTS!!
Since the mass media is engaged in a major propaganda war pushing CAGW, the battle to counter their brainwashing is definitely uphill.
No. Not when you examine the “evidence” Chad-
http://www.pewinternet.org/2016/10/04/the-politics-of-climate/
The only people buying their brainwashing is liberal democrats. And even they aren’t buying it 97%!!! LOL
42% of Democrats (as of 2015 Pew Poll) self identify as liberals. So less than one half of one half of the American voters if you exclude all Libertarians, Green Party, unaffiliated etc. LESS than 25% of all American voters self identifies as liberal. And of those-only HALF of them believe there is a scientific “consensus” on climate change.
Dr Ball. I encourage you to look at the evidence. The statistics. The “measurements” of how the AGW/CAGW message is NOT being accepted by the vast majority of Americans. Not even CLOSE. They aren’t even close to winning any kind of WAR according to the evidence. My dad used to say “If it looks like cow sh$# and smells like cow sh$#, you don’t have to taste it to know it’s cow sh$#”. The average American can see it and smell it, and they are not falling for the agenda driven all-you-can-eat buffet.
While there may well be refinements made to the efforts to educate those who are woefully uninformed,
here’s an encouraging story out of Germany; strong evidence of how people, who are facing the shocking ramifications of mitigation efforts, are resisting in order to protect their beloved environment.
https://stopthesethings.com/2017/04/04/germans-furious-as-more-ancient-forests-felled-to-make-way-for-wind-turbines/
I wouldn’t call this “winning.”
All the millions and millions of dollars the envirostalinists and eviroprofiteers have stuffed into the Global Warming — Save the Planet — Climate Change — What -EVER machine paid them back exactly this:
Public Opinion
Joe: So, like climate change is happening.
Maria: But NO ONE gives a rat’s toothpick.
Truth stands the test of time.
You see, even with NO public education, the hoax would be unraveling.
For, the burden of proof is and has always been on the climate hu$tlers.
The public may not be highly knowledgeable about the AGW topic. They can, however, given enough time, spot a con-game.
Time’s up.
CO2 UP. WARMING STOPPED.
Game over.
************************************
And! Now that TRUMP WON 🙂
the climate clowns will soon be out of a job:
the circus tent is coming down.
Patience.
It is just a matter of time.
***************************************
Re: Wallaces “to no avail” remark — He is overlooking what would have happened BUT FOR the fine work of the Baliuniases, Balls, Wattses, Salbys, Carters, Moncktons, LaFramboises, DeNovas, Koutsoyiannises, Hal Lewises, Tisdales, and on and on of the science realist side…
Oh, no, Mr. Wallace. You are mistaken. MUCH has been done. Disaster has been prevented.
Envirostalinism is on the wane.
Enviroprofiteering is teetering on the edge of bankruptcy.
All because some good people did NOT remain silent.
Thank you, one and ALL of you — and YOU, TOO, YOU WONDERFUL WUWT SCIENCE GIANTS!!
To answer the possible mis-reading of my asserting that even with no public education, the hoax would be unraveling WHILE I at the same time assert that the science giants listed and generally mentioned DID make a significant difference —
The hoax was doomed — just a matter of time. Nevertheless, the science giants who boldly stood up and said, “This is JUNK!” averted disastrous consequences to the freedom, wealth, health of millions of people. That is, by getting the truth out MUCH SOONER than it would have if left to run its doomed course, disaster was averted.
Note further: that ALL the disastrous consequences were not averted does not negate the GREAT IMPORTANCE of what was averted.
Thus, the science realist giants for truth are HEROES for humanity!
i think Janice has put together the “gravitas” argument here. If skeptics keep on doing what they are doing and mother nature keeps on doing what she is doing, then eventually the truth will win out and in some ways has won out already.There’s probably (and pragmatically) no other way forward than that…
To Janice Moore:
The CAGW hoax is not doomed … yet.
It is still taught in schools as a “fact” by leftist teachers to brainwash children.
Even if a miracle occurs, and people stop believing in CAGW, the leftists will come up with another hoax to scare people, and of course a more powerful government will be the “solution”, as usual.
I hate to criticize anything you write, because you seem like such a nice person … but … your “Problems US Worry” chart is deceiving — people don’t worry about CAGW very much because they believe it progresses at a very slow speed — worrying about CAGW now would be like a teenager worrying about dementia when he is 16 years old.
More important than what people worry about, is what they believe, and what they allow their government to spend their tax dollars money on — too many people still believe in CAGW, and want their government to ‘fight it.’
Sadly, our new EPA Director Pruitt believes in AGW — just not ready to accept the “C” in CAGW, or even ridicule it.
There was barely any change in the average temperature between the 1998 ands 2015 El Nino temperature peaks, and yet very few Americans have any idea we had that 17 year flat trend … which may still be in progress.
When leftists develop a hoax, they keep it alive for decades — sometimes for their whole life.
I expect decades from today leftists will still be saying “The Russians” got Trump elected !
I agree with Janice……”slight increase in the number of skeptics”…..and a huge increase in the numbers of don’t care
Not to mention, we’ve apparently entered a solar minimum. Nothing like shutdowns of whole regions and their major cities, with everyone up to their neck in snow, to change hearts and minds! :-))
An argument against religion is only won when their gods are seen to desert the faithful . This raises the no win position that the war on energy can only be replaced by a more damaging cooling of the earths temperature.
https://youtu.be/Sq-uMIZGETs
Anyway – who buys tickets for watching M.Mann + some lukewarmers.
Wallace, Larry Kummer and others, ostensibly leaning to the sceptical side, don’t get it either. They both disappoint. It would be good if we had others of their writing skill who ‘got it’. These guys, and a lot of skeptics think it is a debate.
They offer analyses and criticisms of the debate and better angles to attack, but are unaware that what we are really fighting is a NWO ideology of Neomarxbrothers. For the life of me, I believe most of the CAGW Team themselves and the legions of students and educators are totally unaware of the real masters they serve. What has been done on a global scale to the minds of billions is truly remarkable. The grey cardinals who pull the strings, the elites, number few. Of course it’s sold to the left easily, and that is why basically most opposed globally are Americans – fortunately more than half anyway. Much of the rest of the world is inured to surrendering their freedom and clearly, even civilization itself.
Indeed, the UN, EU, China… and much of the world’s objective is an anti-American one. Bring America down (and have them pay for it, too). Obama was given one of the much devalued Nobel Prizes to try to buy him out and it wasn’t necessary to even try to do that. He’s anti American, too.
The irony is, like conservationists trying to save the Nile crocodile from extinction while they try to snap their saviors’ asses off, America is indispensable to the wellbeing of the world. This is what pi$$es them all off. The laugh is that the only person who can save the world from itself is Trump!! LOL.
Now imagine me trying to present this argument in the debate.
Good post, Gary.
Amen to Scott’s point above. Dr. Ball points out and clearly defines THE problems, they corrupted the science, they lied, they polished their political skills, they deep and wicked motives, etc. We got it! (Actually have had it for a long time.) But he didn’t provide the answers. What is the “little bit” of science that one can explain to show how the science was corrupted and WHAT is “their” motive (money?) AND more importantly, how does one, simply and succinctly prove it? What ARE – THE effective arguments? I’m sitting here with, “CLIMATE CHANGE, THE FACTS.” 285 pages of “FACTS” that I’ve read cover to cover. No summary. I hear there is a new one coming out. Does it have an Executive Summary? I can explain EXACTLY how a computer works, in under a minute, where a 5 year old can understand it. Can anyone here explain (and prove) the “corruption” in under a minute? How about THEIR wicked motives? All this wealth of knowledge here. And believe me, I am daily impressed with all of you that provide your expertise and knowledge here. Maybe the most valuable website on the Internet. BUT – – where’s the “Executive Summary”? (No knock on you, Anthony.) And do not ask me. I may be able to explain why a DIGITAL computer will NEVER accurately model as complex an ANALOG system as the global environment in which we exist but explain the corruption of science? Not a chance.
In the world of science, actual hard cold science, we don’t HAVE to prove motives. That’s for social scientists to slap each other with, like gloves at a duel. The FACTS are the science. The FACTS speak for themselves. The models don’t match reality. They fail. The “consensus” doesn’t change reality. All the screaming and shouting and pointing fingers at poor little CO2 molecules doesn’t change reality.
What “little bit of science” matters? Just this- that NONE of the current changes in climate have been proven to be OUTSIDE of the normal range for natural variability. NONE. The average rate of warming measured by satellites since 1979 falls within the known rates of warming and cooling over the last 10,000 years. There no “science” that proves otherwise.
Their motives don’t matter. Their lies don’t matter. Their propaganda doesn’t matter. Nature is proving them wrong over and over again. LET her. Stop getting caught up in the mind games and the insidious stupidity injected into the debate by social scientists like Cook and Lew. They are petty distractions. It doesn’t matter WHAT the motives are in science…only FACTS matter. Observable, verifiable, empirical measurements. And those prove them wrong. Period.
Wrong. Perception is reality. Propaganda molds perception.
Don132
“Wrong. Perception is reality. Propaganda molds perception.”
Really? The philosophy of a political strategist is the best response you’ve got? What people perceive can be accurate representations of reality or not. It doesn’t change what is truly real. Propaganda molds perception, but so does truth. Fact. Evidence.
And it’s not a scientific debate at all. Read the comment above yours to understand why science can’t win this thing. It was Tims point too.
If no one stands for the science, then science will become a thing of the past. It will become irrelevent. If we abandon the FACTS to wrestle with pigs, then we’ll all end up face down in the mud. The FACTS the real science, is the only thing that makes our side different. The TRUTH. If we become agenda driven too, then WE lose the only advantage that science has ever had over every other human philosophy in history. Evidence. Empirical. Solid. Undeniable. Testable. Replicatable. Physical.
THEY want to make this about morals. Virtue. Psychology. Myth. It’s why they AVOID the actual science, or lack of it, at all costs! Distraction! Name calling. Shaming. Sound bites. You want to fight like them? You might as well raise a white flag and drop your pants for the butt whooping!
People ARE watching. They don’t have to understand the details of science to understand which side is using it. They don’t have to understand Russian to know what it sounds like. Dr Ball’s opinion is not FACT any more than Mickey Mann’s opinion is. The EVIDENCE shows that the majority of Americans DO NOT BELIEVE the consensus, nor do they believe that scientists believe it either!
Now that has to be one of two things:
Either our side is holding the fort in a historical battle and on some glorious morning in the future the sun will rise and amid the smoke the banner of science will be glimpsed still aloft, or
Their side is firing blanks. Loud. Sparkly. Impotent blanks.
The game ain’t over. But it’s the 4th quarter, times running out, they’re on the 4th down, and we’re up by ten.
@Aphan, who said: “Their side is firing blanks. Loud. Sparkly. Impotent blanks.”
Dr. Ball’s point is that the other side is saying the same thing you are… and they have been winning for decades.
Don’t think so? The IPCC still exists. The Montreal Accord still exists. For all the bluster of the new Administration, the Paris deal still exists. And most importantly, the average person in the United States still believes in the AGW theory as being a real thing (whether or not some poll or other indicates they may be concerned enough about it to take any particular action).
As long as you throw scientific jargon at (what amounts to) a bull-horn wielding activist you are going to lose, if for no other reason than no one else can hear you.
This article is spot on. Alarmists don’t care about the facts, they care about talking points that will provide excellent media sound bites. Everyone, scientists included, need to read and internalize articles like “How to argue with an Alarmist,” (can’t remember where I read it and won’t look for it on my tablet) which lays out ways to counter the techniques used by Man et al. Improved argumentative skills are needed to accompany correct science. And using terms like “anomalies” and “mean” do not help when the public has no clue what they mean.
Aphan, the science still matters, but it is only one of the battles.
Here, this is the problem with science. I can explain why co2 has as little effect over all, lower than the models. I can explain it. And I’ve been shouting as loud as I can, and in as many ways I can in this media, and few get it. And it’s actually quite simple, we all know the science, it hasn’t changed, just combined it does something that goes unnoticed.
I mostly get ignored, and when I don’t, I get shown the same old made up trash that goes for climate science that just proves I am just a confused idiot.
That’s what’s wrong with trying to win on the science.
“As long as you throw scientific jargon at (what amounts to) a bull-horn wielding activist you are going to lose, if for no other reason than no one else can hear you.”
http://s17.postimg.org/ab1u9na9r/exactly.png
“Layers of Belief: Political, Religious, and Scientific Dogma”
“Executive Summary?” I’ll give it to you: The climate changes all the time. Always has, always will. Historical records beyond dispute show the world has been both MUCH warmer with MUCH higher CO2, and MUCH colder with somewhat less. All the reasons are not known. Most have to do with cycles of the sun, volcanic activity, ocean currents etc. What we DO know is all this took place long before modern man, and current miniscule changes are well within the bounds of historical norms. To the point that the reality is so mundane it’s BORING. There–how’s that?
We have not “won” the war – simply because we have not had the time in which to win it. It is very difficult to prove a negative such as “More CO2 will not be a major factor in climate change”. In this case I suggest we need perhaps a thousand years of accurate, scientific observations. We have been at it for only about 20 years. Relax, Tim Ball.