Guest opinion: Dr. Tim Ball
Many jumped to the defense of Dr. John Bates, the former NOAA employee who waited until he retired to disclose malfeasance in the science and management at that agency. Bates claimed he told his bosses about the problem but said they effectively ignored him. The problem is everything was already in the public record. I listened to Congressman Lamar Smith tell the general audience at the June 2015 Heartland Conference that subpoenas were filed requesting full disclosure of all the material. He also told us the requests were rejected, but a follow-up was in progress. The same information was reported in the mainstream media, albeit with a bias. Why didn’t Bates go to Smith in confidence and report what he knew? The Smith requests must have been the talk of the office or at least the water cooler.
All sorts of lame excuses were made for Bates, perhaps the only one with limited merit was that his disclosure was better late than never. The problem is he and his supporters can’t have it both ways. He can’t be a knowledgeable climate scientist doing valuable work, when what he and all the others around him were doing was corrupted, unquestioning, naïve, limited, political science. It has to be more than a deliberately blind Nuremberg ‘just following orders’ situation. The larger question is why did he not see what was going on? Even when he realized Thomas Karl had used cherry picked, inadequate data to eliminate “the pause.” It appears he assumed it was an isolated case. He only saw what he wanted to see because he accepted corrupted science without question. How, as a scientist, could he see the consistent IPCC prediction failures and not ask what was wrong with the science?
The most obvious answer is that being a scientist and a bureaucrat are mutually exclusive. Interestingly, the proof of that statement is those scientists, like James Hansen, who openly advocated, proselytized, and publicly acted for what their political masters wanted, could break the Hatch Act. It was specifically designed to limit such activities. He did it in the most brazen way by being arrested outside the White House. Those who knew what was wrong kept their mouths shut and society suffered.
It is impossible to be a scientist and a bureaucrat because by the definition of a bureaucrat you must do what you are told. Walter Gilbert said,
“The virtues of science are skepticism and independence of thought”
Both are anathema to bureaucracies. There is a larger explanation that encompasses and limits all current understanding, not just science. I wrote about this before and included it in both my books because it is especially true of understanding of climate and climate change. I wrote about it before on WUWT, but the Bates/NOAA case indicates an update is needed. It is a problem of overspecialization that is created by climate science. Almost everybody in climate science is a specialist in another area who happens to apply that specialization to studying climate, usually, because funding was available, and always out of context. Hal Lewis, the late Emeritus Professor of physics, explained the impact,
“the global warming scam, with the (literally) trillions of dollars driving it, that has corrupted so many scientists… It is the greatest and most successful pseudoscientific fraud I have seen in my long life as a physicist.”
Some portions of the following are from my earlier writings. I say this to illustrate how insane, inane, and illogical the world of research has become when quoting yourself without citation is considered plagiarism. Of course, it underscores the satirical comment that to copy from one source is plagiarism to copy from several is research.
The year 1859 was a pivotal year in human understanding because events occurred that appeared to provide a great advance but also produced a serious limitation. In that year, Darwin’s Origin of Species was published, and Alexander von Humboldt died. We are now reaching a point where the effects of those events require a rethinking of knowledge, understanding, and explanation; an updating of what we call the truth. In the Science credit for Arts course I taught my opening comments told them I was going to tell them today’s ‘truth.’ It won’t be yesterday’s ‘truth’ although that was as real to people then as today’s truth is to us. And, it won’t be tomorrow’s ‘truth,’ but they can be assured there will be one because truth, like science, is never settled. Unfortunately, they are all educated as logical positivists for whom there is only absolute truths.
Alexander von Humboldt, who is currently being rediscovered, is considered the last ‘universal person.’ It is a definitive end because he knew all the known science of his time and the sheer volume of known science is now beyond human capacity to know. One thing von Humboldt’s ability allowed was the production of the first weather map. This is important because he took individual discreet pieces of information, atmospheric pressure at a location, and plotted them on a map. He then connected points of equal atmospheric pressure with a line called an isobar thus creating a pattern for the understanding of weather unavailable from the individual pieces of information.
Darwin’s work, which as Alfred Russell Wallace pointed out failed to mention humans, triggered the scientific need for data from which to produce a theory. His work was aided by Carolus Linnaeus who produced a classification system that provided a sorting system. The problem is, it also limited the analysis because when a creature was found that didn’t fit, the Duck-billed Platypus, they simply created another category without considering that it might indicate the classification system was wrong. Regardless, the sheer volume of data led to the creation of different branches of research that became individual specialties. Western universities expanded from two major faculties, the Humanities and the Natural Sciences, to a new and now largest faculty, the hybrid Social Sciences. Within each, the number of specialist areas exploded until conflicts developed in those areas that were trying to work with the real world beyond the Ivory Towers. Some universities responded by creating what they called Inter-disciplinary studies, but even they were problematic because they overlapped the institutional management boundaries causing turf wars.
All this triggered an intellectual shift as the dictum in academia became that to specialize was the mark of genius, to generalize the mark of a fool. The problem is in the real world each specialized piece must fit the larger general picture, and most people live and function in a generalized world. The phrase “it is purely academic” means it is irrelevant to the real world. In the twentieth century, the western world went from the dictum that there are general rules with exceptions, to there are no rules, and everything is an exception. This manifests itself in society as condemning generalizations and promoting that everything is an exception – the basis of political correctness.
(Self–Plagiarism alert). A frequent charge is I have no credibility because I only have “a geography degree”. It is an ignorant charge on many levels and usually used as a sign of superiority by specialists in the “hard sciences”. My Ph.D. was in the Geography Department at Queen Mary College because climatology was traditionally part of geography. The actual degree was granted in the Faculty of Science.
Climatology, like geography, is a generalist discipline studying patterns and relationships. Geography is the original integrative discipline traditionally called Chorology. In the late 1960s, when I looked for a school of climatology there were effectively only two, Hubert Lamb’s Climatic Research Unit (CRU) at East Anglia, and Reid Bryson’s program in Madison Wisconsin. Neither was a viable option, although I was privileged to consult with Professor Lamb about my thesis.
Ian Plimer said studies of the Earth’s atmosphere tell us nothing about future climate.
An understanding of climate requires an amalgamation of astronomy, solar physics, geology, geochronology, geochemistry, sedimentology, plate tectonics, palaeontology, paleoecology, glaciology, climatology, meteorology, oceanography, ecology, archaeology and history.
It’s an interesting observation that underscores the dilemma. Climatology is listed as a subset but must include all the disciplines and more. You cannot study or understand the pattern of climate over time or in a region without including them all. He is incorrect in some of these, but that illustrates the problem, for example, meteorology is a subset of climatology. He leaves out many specializations by limiting his list to an understanding of the atmosphere when the list for climate is much longer. Meteorology is the study of physics of the atmosphere but the number of other disciplines required to understand the atmosphere is implied in Figure 1.
Figure 1, a simple systems diagram of weather (After Kellogg and Schneider 1974). Note that three boxes include the word “flux,” but the 2007 IPCC Science Report says, “Unfortunately, the total surface heat and water fluxes are not well observed.
How many specialist research areas can you list from this diagram?
Climate science is the work of specialists working on one small part of climatology. It’s a classic example of not seeing the forest for the trees. Some think computer modelers are generalists. They are specialists trying to be generalists who don’t know the interrelationships, interactions, and feedbacks in the general picture. Wegman’s identified the problem in his Report on the Hockey Stick fiasco.
As statisticians, we were struck by the isolation of communities such as the paleoclimate community that rely heavily on statistical methods, yet do not seem to be interacting with the mainstream statistical community. The public policy implications of this debate are financially staggering and yet apparently, no independent statistical expertise was sought or used.
It was taken to extremes at the Climatic Research Unit and exposed in the leaked emails of Climategate.
The problem of specialization appeared early in climatology and almost precluded wider cross-specialization perspectives from the start. Two early examples illustrate the problem. An early breakthrough in climatology occurred when Ericson and Wollin published “The Deep and The Past” in 1964 outside of academia. It achieved attention because the authors published it as a ‘trade’ book.
Robert Claiborne realized that he was getting different and conflicting time sequences between anthropology and glaciology courses when studying the natural influences on the pattern and sequence of human history. He proposed a doctoral thesis to examine the problem. Again, it was interdisciplinary so was rejected. Claiborne turned outside academia and wrote a trade book titled, “Climate, Man and History” published in 1970. Apart from the intellectual rigidity that specialization introduced, it also illustrates how the IPCC effectively stopped meaningful research in 1990.
Good examples of researchers struggling to end run the tunnel vision of academic specialization and the later limitations of the IPCC to understand better climate and climate change include;
· Sun, Weather and Climate, (1978) by John Herman and Richard Goldberg
· Ice Ages: Solving the Mystery, (1979) by John and Kathrin Imbrie
· The Manic Sun: Weather Theories Confounded, (1997) by Nigel Calder
· The Maunder Minimum and the Variable Sun-Earth Connection (2003) by Willie Soon and Steven Yaskell
· Taken by Storm: The Troubled Science, Policy, and Politics of Global Warming. (2003) Christopher Essex and Ross McKitrick
· The Chilling Stars: A New Theory of Climate Change, (2007) by Henrik Svensmark and Nigel Calder
Society has deified specialized academics, especially scientists. Consider the phrase “You don’t have to be a rocket scientist” used to indicate “hard science” intellectual superiority. Substitute a different occupation and prejudices emerge. “You don’t have to be a farmer”. Now consider the range of specialized areas required for success on a modern farm. A farm, like so many working segments of society, can only succeed as a generalist operation. I realized the problem when a farmer told me he suspected he had problems with his soil. He went to the University Faculty of Agriculture to learn that they had no ‘soils’ people. They had people who could help with nematodes, clay-mineral complexes, trace minerals, all subsets of soil, but no ‘soil’ person.
Climatology is a generalist discipline that requires incorporating all specialist disciplines. The modern glorification of specialization allowed climate scientists to dominate by claiming their piece of a vast puzzle was critical. IPCC climate scientists misused specialized areas, especially in climate models, to achieve a predetermined result. It is only exposed when other specialists, like Steve McIntyre for example, examine what was done, or climatologists find a piece of the puzzle that doesn’t fit.
The Bates event is a symptom of a much wider problem. It is much more than just the fear of speaking out about malfeasance in the workplace. It is more than the problem of bureaucrats doing science or people using science for a political agenda. All those exist and require attention. However, they mask the larger problems of our inability to describe, understand, and advance in a generalist world that has developed a research structure that glorifies specialists who know a great deal about a minuscule piece but don’t even know where it fits in the larger picture.
I am quite happy that Bates wrote out as he did.
It must be hell working in a place where you know your views are totally looked down on.
We all have to hold our tongues at times and not just with work but friends and family. Harmony in our day to day lives is important..
Do not knock him, please.
Vast amounts of money, power, some people’s careers/reputations, and a great many people’s well being/lives were on the line, angech . . your request is bone chilling to me . .
“Even when he realized Thomas Karl had used cherry picked, inadequate data to eliminate “the pause.””
This is just wrong. Bates has been clear that he was not accusing them of manipulating data, just not putting sufficient caveats on “experimental” data. In fact the findings have been confirmed by subsequent studies, which confirms that the data was actually sound. Bates was critical because he felt the authors could not have been sufficiently confident in the soundness at the time and should have said they were experimental.
So you are saying that the pause is not, in fact, real, as Karl wrote. It would be interesting if you could disclose the subsequent studies that found the data was sound.
Here is one
“Assessing recent warming using instrumentally homogeneous sea surface temperature records
Zeke Hausfather, Kevin Cowtan, David C. Clarke, Peter Jacobs, Mark Richardson and Robert Rohde”
http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/3/1/e1601207.full
They say in the abstract “We show that ERSST version 4 trends generally agree with largely independent, near-global, and instrumentally homogeneous SST measurements from floating buoys, Argo floats, and radiometer-based satellite measurements that have been developed and deployed during the past two decades.”
To avoid confusion over ERSST, they say “Although the largest changes to the ERSST record occurred during World War II, ERSSTv4 also indicated a higher rate of warming after 2003. This led Karl et al. (18) to conclude that the central estimate of the rate of global mean surface temperature change during the 1998–2012 period was comparable to that during the 1951–2012 period,”
Thus is is confirmed that the series that led Karl to declare the pause dead has been confirmed by later studies.
Hausfather said in an interview
“Not using their data we get the exact same results, both for the ocean record and for the land,” said Zeke Hausfather, lead author of the Berkeley study. He called Bates’ claims “all about procedural disagreements within NOAA that have very little bearing about our understanding about what’s happening to Earth’s climate.”
Bates himself “said in the interview that there was “no data tampering, no data changing, nothing malicious.” “It’s really a story of not disclosing what you did,” Bates said in the interview. “It’s not trumped up data in any way shape or form.”
” It would be interesting if you could disclose the subsequent studies that found the data was sound.”
Just posted a reply, but is has vanished. If it appears later apologize for the duplication.
One such study is “Assessing recent warming using instrumentally homogeneous sea surface temperature records” Hausfather et al.
They confirm that the date series used by Karl 2015 was in the best agreement with other data:
“We show that ERSST version 4 trends generally agree with largely independent, near-global, and instrumentally homogeneous SST measurements from floating buoys, Argo floats, and radiometer-based satellite measurements that have been developed and deployed during the past two decades.”
Seaice1, the Hausfather study is simply the result of cherry picking the end date to coincide with the peak of the 2015 super El Nino. Anyone who uses that study to support the Karl nonsense is deep into confirmation bias. It is easy to see the effects of the date choice by looking at Hadsst3. The trend is doubled.
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/hadsst3gl/from:1997/to/plot/hadsst3gl/from:1997/to:2014.5/trend/plot/hadsst3gl/from:1997/to:2016.0/trend
From Berkeley –
“The 2015 analysis showed that the modern buoys now used to measure ocean temperatures tend to report slightly cooler temperatures than older ship-based systems, even when measuring the same part of the ocean at the same time.”
“After correcting for this “cold bias”..”
“ships began to automatically measure water piped through the engine room, which typically is warm. Nowadays, buoys cover much of the ocean and that data is beginning to supplant ship data. But the buoys report slightly cooler temperatures because they measure water directly from the ocean instead of after a trip through a warm engine room.”
http://news.berkeley.edu/2017/01/04/global-warming-hiatus-disproved-again/
They adjusted the cooler buoy data to match the warm ships “data”.
Lee, check up on anomalies. It makes no difference if you correct up or down. What you are saying is similar to suggesting converting Fahrenheit to Celsius would exaggerate a temperature rise compared to converting Celsius to Fahrenheit. I does not matter.
What trend? Hausfather is about comparing data series that all end at the same time and seeing which agree best. Your objection is nonsense.
seaice 1, So what was wrong with correcting down if there is no problem with it? The way I see it the ship’s data put an anomalous upward spike in the dataset, which should not have been there, exaggerating warming. By continuing the tradition they are still enhancing the dataset. It is being used as a prop for AGW/CC.
You can compare C and F because you know the adjustment to apply to arrive at your preferred metric. Not even similar.
Looks like a pause to me
It’s senseless adjusting the buoy, rather than the ship, data when you admit (in the same paper)
Well said seaice, his biggest complaint wasincorrect archiving. As Willis would say: be still my beating heart.
Tim Ball
“He can’t be a knowledgeable climate scientist doing valuable work, when what he and all the others around him were doing was corrupted, unquestioning, naïve, limited, political science.”
Sorry Tim but your just making this up.
Agreed, any real “skeptic” movement is greatly diminished by this sort of thing. Bates seems to have accused Karl of cutting procedural corners…that was about it. If there is a real point to be had against Karl’s results, then folks need to show directly where he (or Zeke) are incorrect. This is just arguing in bad faith and is exactly the same sort of tactic that the real skeptics accused the establishment of for years.
It is easy to show where Zeke was incorrect. His results are nothing but ridiculous cherry picking.
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/hadsst3gl/from:1997/to/plot/hadsst3gl/from:1997/to:2014.5/trend/plot/hadsst3gl/from:1997/to:2016.0/trend
Richard M – what is your point, that Zeke used more data than the original comparison? But if updated for more recent data it (the pause) is gone anyway? Either way, who cares. The ‘pause’ is gone…maybe it will come back, thus is the nature of temperature trends. I’ll believe your on to something if/when Zeke or Mosher come on here and acknowledge your argument…or at least see what they have to say about your criticism.
Tony,
Here we agree.
Dr. Ball is in denial over Dr. Bates being acknowledged as a
“whistleblower”.
This despite the clear timeline wherein he (Best) went to Lamar
Smith with his information BEFORE he retired from NOAA.
Subsequently, Dr. Ball’s efforts seem to be a series of “Me ! Me !
Me !” squawks… followed by “Not him !” and more “ME’s !”
@S. Geiger ” Bates seems to have accused Karl of cutting procedural corners” You obviously haven’t read what Bates said have you. Changing the rating of data which then guides scientists to use that data, without assessing the data before changing the rating.. yes you obviously did not read what Bates said
Richard M “the Hausfather study is simply the result of cherry picking the end date to coincide with the peak of the 2015 super El Nino”
You just melted seaice1
Nice
Mark – Helsinki …..”Changing the rating of data which then guides scientists to use that data, without assessing the data before changing the rating.. ” can you please show me the reference for this…or is this your interpretation?
“Dr. Ball is in denial over Dr. Bates being acknowledged as a
“whistleblower”. ”
The war was over by then, it seems glaringly obvious to me, and I really don’t understand how anyone with a halfway logical mind could think that “pause” staring people like Mr. Bates in the face for years (eventually old enough to vote ; ) would not cause any rational scientist in the know, to themselves be a skeptic . .
It seems to me that Mr. Bates is either an imbecile (highly unlikely) or a clever but dishonest weasel who “saw the handwriting on the wall” so to speak, and came up with a way to have his cake and eat it too . .
Don’t forget Karl’s significance 0.1.
Steve Geiger
February 20, 2017 at 11:12 am
Mark – Helsinki …..”Changing the rating of data which then guides scientists to use that data, without assessing the data before changing the rating.. ” can you please show me the reference for this…or is this your interpretation?
_____________________________________
Maturity Matrix Model, wasn’t this done on that single computer that died? 😀 This is where data got it’s new rating, and there is no evidence that the data was reassessed or just pushed up in rank.?
Also guaranteed Google is playing it’s part in this epic scam. I have noticed specific searches increasing returning the usual sources of propaganda. I ma getting Mashable SKS Snopes when looking for specific information of which these results have none of.
I can’t find it atm but I didn’t read it from thin air. I’ll keep looking.
So annoying when some words end you up i the filter. Totally unnecessary.
@S.Geiger “Tom Karl liked the maturity matrix so much, he modified the matrix categories so that he could claim a number of NCEI products were “Examples of “Gold” standard NCEI Products (Data Set Maturity Matrix Model Level 6).” See his NCEI overview presentation all NCEI employees [ncei-overview-2015nov-2 ] were told to use, even though there had never been any maturity assessment of any of the products.”
John J Bates own words.
https://judithcurry.com/2017/02/04/climate-scientists-versus-climate-data/
@S.Geiger and isn’t Maturity Matrix Model Level 6 related to the “crashed computer” issue lol
Tom Karl has been a very naughty boy.
@seaice1
“………just not putting sufficient caveats on “experimental” data.”
The problem here, from my understanding of the situation, is it seems Karl didn’t conform to protocol before presenting his data to the IPCC in time for Paris.
Look at it like this; If you were accused of committing a crime and the Police ignored internal protocols to lock you up just because they believed you committed the crime, wouldn’t that be considered wrong? Indeed, it could set a precedent in that particular Police force. If it was later found that you were guilty of the crime, internal processes can, therefore, be dispensed with altogether.
This is barely even a case of scientific malfeasance, it’s worse, it’s scientific opportunism for the sake of political gain.
What’s even worse is that Karl is being hung out to dry when the IPCC should be investigated for how many other scientific studies have been accepted without due process being followed. This incident undermines science as a whole and climate science in particular, and the IPCC are complicit.
Nor should it be the sceptical community condemning Karl and the IPCC, it should be the alarmist community, for discrediting their own science. Failing to do that simply compounds the entire matter and exposes alarmists as fundamentally dishonest.
I am not suggesting the accusations should not be investigated, but if the police are accused of not filling in the arrest form properly it is not helpful to say they have been accused of fabricating evidence.
seaice1,
Using your analogy, the police did not fill out the arrest forms and they did not archive the evidence. Hence, there is no way to demonstrate that a crime actually occurred.
Without following recognised protocols there is nothing to stop the Police (Karl) from fabricating data. But the point is, even if he didn’t, it leaves the door open for other to do so.
All h is accused of is using experimental data without the warning, and that is debatable as the status if experimental is a little blurred. But if he did wrong he should be challenged. What he is not accused of is cherry picking or manipulating data.
JasG -please show me where he said “and bullied the NOAA team into replacing good data with bad data in order to eliminate the pause for (presumably) political reasons.”
He said the thumb on the scales, but I think you made the rest up.
@seaice1 Bates clearly said that Karl’s thumb on the process herded scientists toward warmer data. (not exact words but certainly he did say this pretty much)
Changing data quality rating without assessing the data, guided scientists to data karl wanted used.
That is still malfeasance
seaice1 Changing the rating without assessing data is not following protocol, yes, but as this was an intentional act, it is also scientific malfeasance
Mark. Bates has never said that. That is your interpretation. But since your interpretation of the Huasfather paper was made without apparently reading or understanding that paper your interpretation appears to be affected by confirmation bias.
Ray in SC. What you could do is have a new investigation using independent data to prove the crime occurred. That is what has happened with Hausfather.
@Seaice1 “All h is accused of is using experimental data without the warning”
patent falsehood
https://judithcurry.com/2017/02/04/climate-scientists-versus-climate-data/
seaice1
February 21, 2017 at 12:50 am
Mark. Bates has never said that. That is your interpretation. But since your interpretation of the Huasfather paper was made without apparently reading or understanding that paper your interpretation appears to be affected by confirmation bias.
I suggest you actually read what Bates said.
Here are his own words. You are either 1 lying or 2 badly misinformed/ Given how easy it is to find this, I’d prefer you were a liar instead of an idiot
https://judithcurry.com/2017/02/04/climate-scientists-versus-climate-data/
seaice1
February 21, 2017 at 12:50 am
Mark. Bates has never said that. That is your interpretation. But since your interpretation of the Huasfather paper was made without apparently reading or understanding that paper your interpretation appears to be affected by confirmation bias.
+++++++++++
So it is delicious that you talk of confirmation bias, because you just demonstrated a perfect case of it
Mark – can you point out where I provide an example of confirmation bias?
Thought not, because there is none.
Typical of a warmist to argue semantics to ignore reality. Bates said that Karl had his thumb on the dial and bullied the NOAA team into replacing good data with bad data in order to eliminate the pause for (presumably) political reasons. In reality a mere confirmation of what everyone suspected already – including you and the amateurs at Berkeley Earth, whose report is the only one that supports Karlisation, written by a team that also have their thumb constantly on the dial. That report is in opposition to Fyfe et al. which concluded we still need to explain the reason for the pause rather than just crudely adjust it away.
This issue clearly separates those who value data-driven science from the politically-motivated who don’t mind adjusting data to suit their narrative.
Yes, the desperate trolls here now are totally lacking in honesty, simply put.
Brett, my observation has been that the number of trollist comments is a measure of how damaging a post is to the AGW cause. They usually assign just one troll to a post. In this case, I think they called out four or five from their sock puppet list. “You get the most flak when you’re right over the target.” Bombs away, Dr. Ball.
JasG – yes that is what Bates said, which is obviously more than claiming Karl cut procedural corners. Later he wished he hadn’t said it, then confused everyone by retracting it.
Also, Zeke said he used the data available to him when he put together the paper. Can’t he update the paper to include later data?
Zeke works with the fake Skeptic Muller
Even worse Zeke is going around protesting using the historically repressive Hijab as a symbol of freedom.
I rest my case
As for Hausfather et al., straight out of the gate it can be discounted by dint of them adding the 2016 el nino before it has finished and before the ensuing la nina that would drag the trend down. Classic politics-driven science! Though I suspect there is also another simple arithmetical error just as in their previous useless paper and likely also some handy made-up data like their Cowtan&Way Arctic adjustment.
“straight out of the gate it can be discounted by dint of them adding the 2016 el nino before it has finished and before the ensuing la nina that would drag the trend down”
It is a sign of confirmation bias to discount evidence you don’t like for spurious reasons. Did you read the paper? It is about comparing data sets from as far back as the 1990 based on a single type of data (bouys, AGRGO float or satellite) with reconstructions using different methods (ships, buckets etc.) and seeing how the different ways of combining the data sets into reconstructions compares with the single source data sets. As such the fact that El Nino has or has not finished is irrelevant.
Sorry seaice 1, but the effect of the date choice is obvious. It essentially doubles the trend. The only ones showing confirmation bias are those who ignore the obvious problems with the date choices.
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/hadsst3gl/from:1997/to/plot/hadsst3gl/from:1997/to:2014.5/trend/plot/hadsst3gl/from:1997/to:2016.0/trend
@seaice1
Picking a trend that doesnt start in an El Nino but ends in one is not “discounting evidence you dont like”
The data should not have used El Nino to back karl et al K15. Either you wait or you remove it.
The same trick is used to make models look relevant. Without 2014\15\16 El NIno (yes it started in 2014 and was already hurting Brazil with drought as it always does) the models are still in the 5% of models not within the bogus 95% range, which is bogus anyway as being just on the edge of 95% is still only making a handful of models close to actual observations GISS is not an observation by any stretch of the imagination FYI
*temp is still in the 5% range, skirting the rim of 95%
Ugh sorry, *Picking a trend that doesnt start in an El Nino but ends in one is not “discounting evidence you dont like”? Yes it is because El Nino is not part of the warming trend from alleged GHG forcing is it.
Thinking is very hard for some
Mark and Richard, please read the paper before commenting. That is no what the paper is about.
http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/3/1/e1601207.full
@seaice1: This is so obviously cherry picking but you can’t see it. That says everything about the quality of science one can expect from you.
@seaice1 COBE SST is a farce, estimated SST adjusted by ship data
seaice1
February 20, 2017 at 6:37 am
“straight out of the gate it can be discounted by dint of them adding the 2016 el nino before it has finished and before the ensuing la nina that would drag the trend down”
It is a sign of confirmation bias to discount evidence you don’t like for spurious reasons. Did you read the paper? It is about comparing data sets from as far back as the 1990 based on a single type of data (bouys, AGRGO float or satellite) with reconstructions using different methods (ships, buckets etc.) and seeing how the different ways of combining the data sets into reconstructions compares with the single source data sets. As such the fact that El Nino has or has not finished is irrelevant.
————————-
Why do you keep uttering confirmation bias? That is irrelevant, and you displayed that exact above.
You dont respond to replies that show you are wrong either.
laughable bias. Carry on tho yeah
“which confirms that the data was actually sound”…
The point is they took a WAG at the time..
Just because it was right…does not excuse the WAG
No different than predicting the weather….and being right
Like buying stock for a client—sometimes you hit it right and sometimes you don’t. If you go in completely blind and don’t disclose that you are clueless and just throwing darts at a board, that’s dishonest. Pretending to know what you do not know is politics, not science.
“So, in every aspect of the preparation and release of the datasets leading into K15, we find Tom Karl’s thumb on the scale pushing for, and often insisting on, decisions that maximize warming and minimize documentation.” Quoted from Dr. Bates 4 Feb 2017 at Curry’s blog.
Your claim of soundness prompt memories of the “hockey stick” being found correct to come to mind.
Thank you Chad. Finally, someone here quoted what Dr. Bates actually said. Stay tuned for the Congressional Investigation.
Definitions:
“THUMB ON THE SCALE”
“(idiomatic) An act of bias or a tactic for cheating which creates a situation that unfairly benefits one party involved in an interaction.”
“An idiom that means you are trying to influence the result of something in your favor; cheating; a bias or a tactic that unfairly benefits one party more than another in a transaction.”
_____________________________
Anyone who has followed the many “adjustments” to the surface temperature data, as ably recorded by Tony Heller and others, will have no difficulty understanding the dishonest motive behind these adjustments.
Watch carefully, my good people: Nothing up my sleeve!
https://realclimatescience.com/all-temperature-adjustments-monotonically-increase/
Source: Tony Heller
“Hockeystick” and “correct” don’t belong in the same universe.
he knew it was fraud, pure and simple … he was and is a coward …
The one academic discipline that could ask the right questions about the work being done by the various climate scientists is the philosophy of science, yet it has been strangely silent. Certainly when I studied it in the 1970s philosophers like Sir Karl Popper more or less defined the field and drew very strict lines between science and non-science. I’m tempted to add statistics, because I’m sure a professional statistician, maybe blind to the subject being described by the statistics, would draw very different conclusions to those of many climate scientists.
It will be interesting to see the direction climate science takes with the Trump presidency. Will all those climate scientists who have felt forced into hiding their own views come out into the open? Maybe when their institutions get the right sort of research grants…!
The money at stake is huge. All data should be relabelled as parameter A, parameter B, etc., and then analysed by professional statisticians who know nothing, or are at least agnostic, about climate. Then the all can be relabelled and we can see what is really going on.
“In the twentieth century, the western world went from the dictum that there are general rules with exceptions, to there are no rules, and everything is an exception. ”
This is just making stuff up. There has been no such dictum. Nearly every subject uses exactly the same rules based approach they always did.
That you don’t know about the very widely discussed and growing problems with pal/peer review, confirmation bias, statistical abuse, lack of replication and the if-it-bleeds-it-leads scandal of science publishing says much about you. If you don’t ever read stuff then you won’t know any of this of course but your opinion is then based on what you prefer to believe rather than the reality that Tim Ball is discussing.
JasG, what are you talking about? I am aware of problems of confirmation bias – in fact I just pointed out an example above. I am aware of problems with peer review. I am aware of the replication problem highlighted in psychology but surely existing in all fields to some extent. I am aware of the distortionary effects of not publishing negative results and not declaring trials or their expected outcomes before they happen. I am aware of the problem of sensationalism (particularly in press releases rather then the papers themselves). Lots of other people are aware of them and there is wide discussion of these problems.
I am aware that none if this has anything to do with a dictum there are no rules and everything is an exception. I know this because if there were such a dictum then these would not be identified as problems since they would all be classed as exceptions. I also know this because there is no such dictum.
seaice1: So the only problem you have is the use of the word “dictum”? Interesting.
No Sheri, it is the meaning of the sentence, not its construction or vocabulary selection. Any words than convey the same meaning would have drawn the same response.
Count how many times Seaice1 uses the term “confirmation bias on this thread. 😀
Most people don’t know what a universal man is or what a universal is. This is what Tim Ball refers to in very simple terms. This marks beginnings of the end of science.
Nearly every subject uses exactly the same rules based approach they always did.
==============
nope. replication and successful prediction used to be the criteria for acceptance. peer review simply meant your paper might be worth reading.
today, peer review is used in place of replication and successful prediction, to imply that your paper is correct even though correctness has not been demonstrate. in effect peer opinion has replaced actual scientific experiment. thus the explosion in false positives.
Thank you for the education.
Not a scientist in any respect. Have a History degree which I might argue is the most general of all generalist degrees. Also spent a couple of years long ago enforcing US environmental regulations. Time in that dead bureaucracy left a mark. I am not surprised when a John Bates or a John Beale pops up.
I am not a historian, but I understand that history is about sources and attempts to asses their reliability. Not so different from science
History is also about individuals and entities attempting to control the narrative and suppress the truth. Certainly resembles climate science in that regard.
seaice1
Nope, science is a lot different than history:
1) Your theory must make falsifiable predictions
2) Experimental results need to be able to be duplicated
3) Accurate natural phenomena (i.e. data) must support the theory, or theory is modified
Nature (data) determines the accuracy of theory, not the other way round. This isn’t a bunch of guys sitting around trying to divine the truth about the past.
History is about what happened, why it happened, and what were the results of it happening. Studying sources and attempting to assess their reliability is merely part of the process and would be pointless on its own, a bit like calibrating scientific instruments but never actually using them.
Science and history/law are two separate methodologies for determining truth under two separate conditions. They and their target fields overlap only slightly. Science relies heavily upon statistical analysis and is best used when an experiment or observation can be repeated at will to test the model (theory) being proposed. The general scientific procedure is a recursive one of proposing a model, comparing it’s predictions to reality, modifying the model, and repeating until successful predictions are made.
The historical/legal field, on the other hand, is concerned with discovering the truth about unique, non-reproducible phenomena through the evaluation of available eyewitness testimony and evidence. It is primarily concerned with evaluating and judging documents and records and truth claims.
Trying for simplicity then…
NASA implies that the radiative effects of water vapour mostly, with a little help from CO2, warm either the air or surface, (I’m never sure which) by 33ºC.
Evaporation from moist surfaces cools the surface taking that heat with it in the form of latent heat to be released as it progressively condenses with altitude thereby warming the air at a rate of 3.3ºC/km on average.
This results in a reduction of the gravitational/dry lapse rate of 9.8ºC/km. to 6.5ºC/km.
So as moist air loses its moisture with altitude it warms the air by 3.3ºC/km to be 33ºC warmer than it should be at a 10km high tropopause.
Winds and turbulence are the only way for this warmer air at the top to mix with the cooler air below within the gravitational/dry lapse rate of the now dry air.
This mixing equalises the potential increase of temperature to the average of 16.5ºC throughout.
Which means an increase at the surface of 16.5ºC through the power of latent heat and its mixing within a gravitational field alone.
… or am I missing something here?
The greenhouse effect is the difference between the average temperature (or heat) of the molecule or surface that last emits IR before it leaves the earth and heads to space and the average surface temperature.
That temperature difference (for each molecule and surface) is given by the lapse rate x height.
And so the 32C greenhouse effect tells us that the average height is 32/6.5 = ~5km
If you add greenhouse gases, all this does is add more IR emitters and slightly raises the average height at which IR emitted by CO2 molecules leaves the atmosphere. For a doubling of CO2 (1C change) that height change is ~150m.
In other words, you can experience the full horror of a doubling of CO2 by climbing a hill, and then descending 150m … and I have often noticed this horrific effect, because I find that as I descend the last 150m of a mountain I am desperate for a drink.
Exactly, and so revealing the real greenhouse effect of non radiative Nitrogen and Oxygen holding onto any sensible or latent heat within a gravitational field.
Perhaps next time take the low road
+++++
You are missing something. Try this thought experiment. I do not know if I have it right, so please chip in if I have made a mistake.
1) We start with a planet with no water and and no atmosphere where earth is now. The surface would warm to 33K lower than we observe for Earth. Do you agree so far? The heating from short wavelength radiation is balanced by cooling from long wavelength radiation.
2) To keep things comparable, lets imagine this world a little closer to the sun, so we end up with surface temperatures the same as Earth (to avoid frozen water in the later steps). Incident radiation is higher, but the temperature is the same, at 15C
3) Now we add an argon atmosphere (1 atm pressure at ground), assume it to be totally transparent to radiation and still no water. The only source of heat in this atmosphere would be conduction from the ground. The atmosphere could not become hotter than the Earth is now, even though we have greater incident radiation. At the bottom of the atmosphere we have 15C (through conduction). As we ascend I guess we would get colder. because of the dry adiabatic lapse rate. As the atmosphere warms in contact with the ground it expands, and does work. Since the process is adiabatic, the gas must cool. We have 15C at the surface at cooing as we ascend. The only way the surface can lose energy is by IR, and the incident is the same, so the temperature at the surface will remain at 15C.
4) Next we add water. This water is invisible to radiation. Some would evaporate. This must cool the surface, since energy does not come from nowhere. However, a cool surface must heat until equilibrium between incoming and outgoing radiation is the same, so it remains at 15C.
5) Initially the air rises according to the dry adiabatic lapse rate until condensation occurs. This would then cool at the lower wet lapse rate. So we get a surface at 15C and the atmosphere being hotter than it would have been without the water. We have transferred some energy from the surface to the atmosphere.
6) The surface is still at 15C. There is no mechanism for it to become any warmer.
7) This hypothetical Earth is closer to the sun, but without the greenhouse effect it cannot warm any further. All we can do is transfer some energy to the atmosphere.
Please comment in this idea – if there is an error please point out where it is.
Add 400 ppm CO2 and one still gets the 15C, right?
Here goes…
1) On a planet with no atmosphere there is no air so no temperature of air, only of the surface which like the Moon would be super hot in the sun/day time and super cold in the shade/night time. With a misleading AVERAGE of -18ºC.
2) No need to move the Earth closer to the sun.
3) Adding an ideal gas with the same atmospheric mass as ours today means the air can only be warmed by conduction and convection with a lapse rate of 10ºC on the up an 10ºC on the down. What you see at the heated surface is what you get somewhere else to warm a cooler surface. There is no potential increase of temperature with height, same up same down with big extremes of the misleading AVERAGE surface temperature.
4) Adding the same capacity of ocean as now enables storage of 3000 times the amount of heat than that of the atmosphere. Water is not invisible to solar radiation and absorbs nearly all of it down to a hundred metres if it comes in at a steep enough angle with no cloud or water vapour to intercept it. Now we have the means to further moderate extremes of temperature by spreading heat from the tropics far and wide. Not only by ocean currents but also by evaporation which steals heat from warmer places to give to cooler places far away. This results in further moderation of misleading AVERAGE surface temperatures to a more equable global climate.
5) See further back for how a reduction in the dry lapse rate results in a potential temperature increase of 33ºC at the tropopause. And how wind and turbulence equalise that progressive increase in temperature with height by mixing the cooler air at the bottom with the warmer air at the top to its average of16.5C throughout.
This results in an increase of air temperature at the surface of 16.5C. Remember that this increase of surface temperature is a result of the cooling of a warmer surface somewhere else. Again smoothing out a misleading AVERAGE global temperature of 15ºC at the surface.
6) There is no need for a radiative “greenhouse” effect. It’s all about an atmosphere of a certain mass with a gravitational lapse rate and in our case an ocean to moderate the extremes between poles and the equator.
#1 is probably wrong. That 33 K reduction in temperature assumes that the earth has the same albedo as now, with clouds and oceans and no atmosphere- a fantasy world.
#3 is definitely wrong. See
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/01/24/refutation-of-stable-thermal-equilibrium-lapse-rates/
The non greenhouse atmosphere will gradually heat up until it;s all the same temperature as the ground.
Since we’re dealing with science fiction here, there’s a Science Fiction problem that has been bothering me. In Larry Niven;s “Ringworld” series, a super advanced super intelligent civilization creates a giant ring orbiting the sun with a 1 au radius. There are high walls on the inner side of the ring to hold in an atmosphere, and the ring is spinning fast enough to generate 1 g gravity. There are rotating panels slightly closer to the sun than the ringworld which block and reflect sunlight, giving the ringworld a “nighttime” What would climate be like on such a world? There wouldn’t be seasons. There’d be no Hadley circulation creating standard wind directions.
and what about clouds which reduce the incoming possible energy … and ice which does the same …
Pablo, thank you for discussing. 1) The average is as I suggested.
3) So you agree with the lapse rate? The warmest the atmosphere average can get is the surface average temperature?
4) So the ocean can only spread he energy and cannot raise the temperature above the previous?
5) This thought experiment was an answer to the further back comment. That was not an explanation. I can see how the temperature of the atmosphere at altitude could be raised to the surface temperature, but not above that.
6) You have not explained how this could happen. Adding water stores more energy and can spread it around but cannot raise the temperature unless it can change the energy balance.
Alan, thank you also.
1, yes this is a fantasy world. We can imagine he same albedo, it does not really matter.
3) Thank you for he link – I will have a look bu no time now. I wondered about the lapse rate and would the atmosphere all heat up to the same temperature. I concluded that work still needed to be done to expand, but if the atmosphere was all the same temperature there would be no warming or expanding.
Kaiser – these are details that can be considered later.
Alan, I have looked at the link, thanks. It seems reasonable that the atmosphere would heat to uniform temperature. Another way to view it is that such an atmosphere can gain or lose energy ONLY from contact with the ground. If there is no way to lose energy from the top of the atmosphere, it must eventually reach equilibrium with the ground.
If we add non-radiating water we will end up with uniform humidity and no such thing as weather. Interesting. However, what we will not end up with is a warmer world.
Alan,
This was an interesting comment from the other post by kdk33:
“Lastly, if I assume the entire atmosphere is isentropic – all the way to the tippy top – then T1/T2 = P1/P2^0.4. If I solve for T2 letting T1 and P1 be the conditions at the tippy top of the atmosphere, I calculate an enormous value for T2, the surface temperature. Clearly the atmosphere cannot be isentropic all the way up. At some point it becomes non-isentropic.
I think the isentropic condition breaks down when convection ceases to be the dominant mode of heat transfer. As you rise, the atmosphere becomes less dense, convection less effective, until eventually heat transfer is dominated by radiative heat transfer. Radiative heat transfer is not constrained by the DALR and can drive the temperature gradient to zero. Hence the planet surface temperature is not enormous.”
I think this means that if we have radiant energy loss from the top we can maintain a temperature difference and a lapse rate. If we don’t we can’t.
My god seaice 1.
The earth without an atmosphere has precisely one mode of energy in, and one mode out.
Radiant in,
Radiant out.
There’s no 33 degrees of warming from placing a frigid bath of heat conductive fluid around a rock warmed in vacuum.
When you add the first atmosphere you supply the conduction losses in addition to the initial radiant losses,
so you now have two modes of cooling: radiant, and conduction. Additional modes of cooling are not heating.
Frigid baths of fluid are not heaters.
When you add enough GHGs to exclude 1% sunlight energy, surface energy density declines yet another 1%.
When you add enough GHGs to exclude 10% sunlight energy surface energy density declines by another 9% for a total of 10% surface energy density reduction.
Reducing light onto a rock
can not make more come out
than when more was going in.
No matter how many people swear it happened one time. It never happened and never will.
That’s why climate-billies who believed in the trash called AGW can’t stand talking about thermodynamics in science: they are ridiculous for ever even having supposed it to be possible.
It’s ridiculous is the word for it, ridiculous, and transparent, and fraud.
E Becker, The temperatures I refer to are after steady state has been re-attained after adding the atmosphere.
“so you now have two modes of cooling: radiant, and conduction.”
When you add the atmosphere, the atmosphere becomes part of “the system”. There is no conduction out of the system as the atmosphere cannot conduct energy to space. When you add the atmosphere it will perturb the system. Then the surface will return to the same temperature as before once it has warmed the atmosphere.
It seems that you agree with me that the surface temperature will return to the previous surface temperature.
“When you add enough GHGs to exclude 1% sunlight energy, surface energy density declines yet another 1%.
When you add enough GHGs to exclude 10% sunlight energy surface energy density declines by another 9% for a total of 10% surface energy density reduction.
Reducing light onto a rock
can not make more come out
than when more was going in.”
This part is incoherent. GHG block outgoing radiation, not incoming. There were no GHG in my hypothetical anyway.
Durn right you’re right!
GH warming 33c, but how much does the atmosphere and hydro cycle cool the planet? 30c+? That would mean GH warming is double if atmosphere is cooling it by 30c+
Interesting commentary. I agree that Bates showed little courage, as he had retired and was beyond retribution, and in a new administration that would endorse his revelation. The CAGW advocates have a compulsion to defend Karl and Mann, and insist there was no wrongdoing. they remind me of the die-hard Nixon defenders, or Marxists in Northern California insisting that the fall of the Soviet Union meant nothing.
Complete nonsense Tom. Proven by the fact Bates raised this while he was at NOAA and was shut down.
While Bates could have been in contact with Lamar Smith before he retired, his name did not come out publicly until after he retired.
I understand totally why someone working for a government bureaucracy would wait until they have left that employment to make a comment, as speaking out against the leadership and not signing from the same book can result in a very negative feedback loop.
As an engineer with just a few basic science courses in physics(3) and chemistry(2) it seems to me a ‘climate scientist’ will be lost without physics and thermodynamics. I’m pretty well convinced that more CO2 is beneficial and that warming is beneficial and that there is adequate data to so indicate unequivocally. It also seems the ‘back radiation’ effect is bogus and could be easily proven experimentally if it is valid. And the entire question is moot as we need to develop the ideas of small, fail safe, distributed nuke plants to replace fossil fuels. We could stop building more and more ugly power transmission lines – put nukes underground in large cities – after all what do our troop s have in submarines and aircraft carriers but safe, reliable nukes. Our only problem is we cannot get out of our own way – That is the essence of Dr. Happer’s message.
As another engineer, it doesn’t help repeating the meme about back-radiation. This is only a shorthand term for the mechanism of the radiative greenhouse effect which we already know is real because clouds and water vapour do warm the planet. Think of it not as a warming but rather as the delayed cooling of a rotating planet and it is easier to grasp.
Like you I think the solution to this plausible though coy problem is one of better power engineering rather than callously expecting everyone to go without energy.
Clouds and water vapour slow down radiative cooling of the planet at the relevant wavelengths for sure but also reflect, absorb and scatter much of the incoming solar radiation without which the surface cannot heat up in the first place.
It appears to me that the first mechanism of increased GCR flux and cloud nucleation is the tropospheric retention of heat released (due to changes in wind patterns) by the ocean surface. Increased water vapor retains ocean heat at the poles where the most warming is detected.
Later, the lack of insolation in the tropics and mid latitudes results in cooling SSTs, and as the heat runs out, frozen precipitation begins to dominate and upper latitude albedo increases while atmospheric water becomes increasingly sequestered.
If the heliosphere remains in a shrunken state long enough, the SSTs drop to a point where jet stream circulation is influenced more by albedo changes than oceanic heat releases.
I’m not any kind of scientist, just an ordinary man in the street. Water vapour does not warm the planet by delaying cooling, because it also delays warming. That fact is easily demonstrated by comparing temperatures in the desert and the rainforest. Rainforests have warmer nights and cooler days. So, JasG, as an engineer, what’s your excuse?
The atmosphere cools the planet. More green house gases cool the planet more than any other type gas: they’re the only type listed on sunlight: top/bottom of atmosphere charts.
Oxygen creates some losses in surface energy through daylight blue-sky refraction.
The Green House Gases are the sole cause for all the rest of the losses: 20%.
There’s no such thing as refractive insulation media suspended in a bath, blocking light to a
light warmed object,
making more light come out of that object,
than when more was coming in.
And anyone who says it’s possible needs to ask themselves why all green house believers ban people and are mocked to their faces for even believing in it.
Because a child with a real education can see not a word of all that magic heating is true, or even possible to mistake for reality based physics, once one tries to figure out exactly how more
insulating fire blanket
between a fire and object warmed,
makes more fire get to the object,
as more fire is deflected (refracted) away by the fire blanket.
This is the simple principle of a fireman’s refractive canvas coat.
The coats aren’t made thicker and thicker so the firemen’s backs get hotter and hotter.
Refractory insulation
between fire and thermal sensors,
creates reduction in temperature,
again – no matter how many losers swear they’ll kill themselves if they’re told again.
We real scientists have forever. Those trying to stop scientific discussion based in real thermodynamics are despised as repugnant frauds.
Sleepalot. You acknowledge that water vapor reduces both incoming and outgoing energy. Is there any reason why you think the magnitude of both processes must be the same?
Co2 is undoubtedly beneficial to humanity, even NASA agrees.
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2016/carbon-dioxide-fertilization-greening-earth
As for distributed nukes, this short TED talk by the late David McKay demonstrates the futility of the alternatives. And by his own admission, he’s a green.
https://www.ted.com/talks/david_mackay_a_reality_check_on_renewables?language=en
put nukes underground in large cities
So long as they don’t flood.
@ur momisugly Shawn Marshall
February 20, 2017 at 5:19 am : The Gas Laws/Poisson Relationship demonstrate how energy finds alternative but equally efficient pathways down the gradient to space. So there can be no ghe. Only some molecules held closer together than others, by the gravity.gradient. It is tragic to see that some people are just too smart to grasp this.
“It also seems the ‘back radiation’ effect is bogus and could be easily proven experimentally if it is valid.” It can be shown experimentally: http://www.drroyspencer.com/2016/08/experiment-results-show-a-cool-object-can-make-a-warm-object-warmer-still/
that experiment didn’t even begin to “prove” that a cold object can heat a hotter object … not even close …
@Kaiser Derden Nor did Dr Spencer claim it did tbf.
The experiment shown below does not prove that greenhouse gases in the atmosphere perform such a function, only that it is not a violation of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics for a cooler object emitting infrared radiation to keep a warm object warmer that it would otherwise be if the cooler object was not present.
it’s about IR not heat after all. Heat would not transfer from cooler to hotter object but IR emitted from a cooler object would surely be added to the warmer object because IR is not interested in equilibrium.
Riddle me this. If the total GHG effect is 33c, warming earth from -19c to 14c. and the atmosphere and hydro cycle cool the planet by around 30c, how is the GHG still 33c and not actually 63c? 🙂
> It also seems the ‘back radiation’ effect is bogus and could be easily proven experimentally if it is valid.
See Roy Spencer’s explanation (and experiment) here:
http://www.drroyspencer.com/2010/08/help-back-radiation-has-invaded-my-backyard/
In the Science credit for Arts course I taught my opening comments told them I was going to tell them today’s ‘truth.’ It won’t be yesterday’s ‘truth’ although that was as real to people then as today’s truth is to us. And, it won’t be tomorrow’s ‘truth,’ but they can be assured there will be one because truth, like science, is never settled. Unfortunately, they are all educated as logical positivists for whom there is only absolute truths.
Dr. Ball, you are confusing truth with incomplete perception of truth. If there is no absolute standard, there can be no truth, only opinion. It’s disappointing to see such championing of relativism. It’s moral relativism in Bates that you are condemning with this post
I think Tim Ball has a valid point here; he just does not express it very clearly.
Einstein said: “As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality.” Karl Popper makes much the same point — we can never prove our hypotheses right; the best we can do is try to prove them wrong.
Moreover, the science of the day always consists a mix of well-established facts — the boiling point of water, or the circumference of the earth can be expected to withstand any future scrutiny — and more tenuous extrapolations. Space and time were separate and absolute, until they were not; genetic inheritance could only ever work with DNA, until there were RNA viruses and then even prion proteins; light was a particle, no, a wave, no, it has properties of both; dinosaurs were cold-blooded reptiles, no, warm-blooded ones, no, they actually had feathers. Each of the previous conjectures was supported by evidence, but ultimately falsified. It is quite likely that much of what we now hold true, after careful consideration of the currently available evidence, will be falsified by future evidence.
You need the historical perspective to really understand science as a process, to not mistake today’s snapshot for the ultimate and unshakable truth. This is nothing to do with relativism, moral or otherwise.
@ur momisugly Michael Palmer
February 20, 2017 at 6:17 am: But good science stands the test of time when empirically correct. The context will expand and even maybe change, but good stuff will still work reliably. And that is beautiful to see for a scientist.
Brett, I take your point, but sometimes the science is good, and yet more than the “context” changes — take the physics revolution of the early 20th century for example.
You can’t say we weren’t warned:
Climate “Science” on Trial; The Prophet Eisenhower Warned Us About Climate Scientists
https://co2islife.wordpress.com/2017/02/09/climate-science-on-trial-eisenhower-warned-us-about-climate-scientists/
The real problem is, I’m an amateur climatologist and I can spot the problems, as have countless other people that post on this blog. These articles detail the corruption, and they only took me a few hours to write, and I’m an outsider. The people perpetrating this fr@ud see it first hand and remain silent.
Climate Science Behaving Badly; 50 Shades of Green & The Torture Timeline
https://co2islife.wordpress.com/2017/02/12/climate-science-behaving-badly-50-shades-of-green-the-torture-timeline/
Climate “Science” on Trial; Cherry Picking Locations to Manufacture Warming
https://co2islife.wordpress.com/2017/02/18/a-tale-of-two-cities-cherry-picking-locations-to-manufacture-warming/
You constantly and consistently use other blogs to hype up your own. You have been at this for quite some time now. Does your blog not generate any traffic on it’s own?
Links to co2islife blog starts at 3.
I wouldn’t call it “hyping my blog.” Because the explanations for such issues take more than a few sentences, I write a blog post and then post a link. My blog doesn’t generate any revenue, so I don’t care about views. All my posts are relevant to the topic at hand, so what is your problem? You must me projecting your insincere motives onto me.
BTW TonyL, most of us are on the same team, trying to sincerely educate the public. I would argue that the more people we have like Mr Watts and their blogs the better. I am constantly referencing and drawing viewers to this and other informative websites. That is what we do, we try to unselfishly educate the public on this issue. Help me understand why anyone would ever have a problem with this? That is how this volunteer army works, we all help each other out to spread the word. You are the only one that has ever posted that they have a problem with it. Why? What harm do my posts do other than undermine the case of the climate alarmists. Do you have a problem with that? And BTW, yes I’ve been getting great views. Views that are far ahead of my expectations. This post:
How to Discuss Global Warming with a “Climate Alarmist.” Scientific Talking Points to Win the Debate.
https://co2islife.wordpress.com/2017/01/03/how-to-discuss-global-warming-with-a-liberal-the-smoking-gun-files/
Is doing exceptionally well, and right now seems to be going viral on Facebook. Each day the views just keep going higher and higher at a compounded rate. Thanks for asking, and be sure to share 🙂
@ur momisugly co2islife:
I do not mean to be too hard on you. Your comments generally are on topic and do contribute to the conversation. I have surfed over to check out your blog. I can tell you worked hard on it and it does seem to be a worthy effort.
On the other hand, going back a month to Jan. 20, you have linked to your blog a total of 120 times. As they say, “anything worth doing is worth overdoing”, or something.
Tony L , I could be accused likewise of hyping my own site . But it’s generally , as I believe is true for co2islife , because we know where relevant material or graphics are . For instance , I know of no place other than my site where the absolutely most basic classical computations of planetary temperature are worked thru in a freely available array programming language . I find it astoundingly hard to get people to engage in forming a foundation of generally agreed on computational physics such as is basic for an undergraduate in any other branch of applied physics . It is literally the case I could not even get the crowd at RealClimate.org to demonstrate that they understand the generalization to arbitrary spectra of the computation which produces the endlessly parroted 255K meme . I would love to have some other reference to how to compute the equilibrium temperature of a billiard ball under a sun lamp and find it pathetic that I know of none . But that leaves me referencing my own http://CoSy.com by default .
If you see fraud and don’t shout fraud, you are a fraud.
Nassim Nicholas Taleb
Bingo!!!
I have tried to follow the comments but noone seems ( as far as I can tell) that another thing that the retired whistle blower mentioned was corrupt or bad computer code. Dr Ball has a point but didn’t seem to cover that part of Bates claims.
EXACTLY, Alexander: that’s what a doctorate or degree in something is: a trust that one will practice replicable, documented scientific endeavor or be stripped of ones’ degrees.
There’s a well known experiment where a group of students were split between jailers and detainees. It that experiment it was found that very quickly that jailers started acting in quite appalling ways because “it was expected”.
In such situations, people seldom complain for what becomes “expected”, even though to an outsider coming in it is appalling Instead it is only when what they see becomes so utterly appalling, that they have to do something.
And as such, I suspect Bates still largely thinks what NOAA and NASA were doing was appropriate – even if to someone approaching the organisation and subject from afresh would find their accepted practises as intolerable.
In keeping with Dr. Ball’s theme, consider the practice of human medicine with all of its specialization. Medicine and climate science share many of the same traits.
Specialized knowledge has its place, but it is today difficult to find
an excellent general practitioner who is willing to know and care for the whole patient, even to the point of researching and managing a person’s afflictions. If you or a loved one hasn’t suffered from a rare and challenging condition, you can’t grasp the frustration of having multiple specialists pronounce the wrong diagnosis or give up and blame the patient. It sometimes takes years before one can find a competent and caring physician who is willing to study all of the patient’s records, who will listen to the patient, and who can make the correct diagnosis. Such patients often cannot count on continuing care and commitment from their physicians and must manage their own cases. Woe unto the uneducated layman of average or below intelligence who is faced with such a malady.
Many of today’s doctors even refuse to do rounds when their patients are in the hospital, leaving that to “hospitalists,” doctors who are strangers, knowing only what they can glean from a quick glance at a patient’s chart.
Today, the system is rigged against the excellent doctor, and many of the best are being pressured into retirement or going out of the networks into independent practice.
Amen to that. As an MD by training, I have always thought that the job of general practitioner, if you truly want to do it well, is the most demanding specialization of all, but it is not treated with the respect it deserves; and accordingly, people who in principle have the ability but also have ambition are discouraged from pursuing this as their career.
General practitioner. I haven’t heard that term for quite a while. The closest thing now is “Family Practice”. It brings back fond memories of my father who was a true general practitioner in medicine. As a small town and rural doctor he did many things that the urban family practitioner would not dream of doing. He gave and read electrocardiographs, delivered babies, performed minor surgery, set broken limbs and was the county coroner for many years among other things. Unfortunately, medicine was his life and he was not happy after retirement at the age of 75.
My doctor does come to the hospital to see to his patients who are admitted – even if under the care of specialist. And I can vouch that it is truly heartening to see him.
Please don’t knock “hospitalists”—I had some excellent ones when I was hospitalized repeatedly in 2015. Some took much time to listen, others tried to give me meds I told them were not allowed and just didn’t listen. They’re individuals and as such, may be very skilled or not skilled.
Specialists are a necessary evil—you don’t want someone curing your cancer that is a GP. You need an orthopedic surgeon to repair your shattered leg. That’s reality. I understand the frustration—at one time I had 4 specialists that would disagree with each other. I enlisted my GP, very honestly saying why, to referee the 4 specialists. I will admit at the moment I just get prescription refills and gardening tips (he’s got some good ones!) from my GP, but if I need a referee, I know he’ll be there. He’s been my GP off and one for over 30 years, so he’s very familiar with my medical issues. That, to me, is the function of the GP—helping people understand what the specialists are saying and helping people understand when a specialist is needed and when one is not. I like my GP, but specialists have been vital to my recovery more than once. They can work together.
Yes, you do need specialists, but you are selling the GP short. He is not a mere interpreter of received wisdom. Have a look at Robert’s comment above. The GP, particularly in a rural area, will always be the first on the scene. He must deal with emergencies, but even more commonly he is the one who makes the first presumptive diagnosis, even before he refers you to the specialist. Fishing out the few patients who are in the early stage of a serious disease from the endless, mind-numbing parade of trivial flu, hangover and back pain requires astuteness and discipline. So does keeping abreast of the whole field of medicine in the evenings, after working 10 hours or more. It is a most demanding job — as with Robert’s father, only those who dedicate their life to it can do it well.
It is a pity that Professor Ball spoils an otherwise solid article by starting it with an attack on Dr. Bates. Having seen the denigration and harassment that Professor Ball, even after retirement, has had to suffer for speaking out, is it any wonder that another scientist might prefer to delay before blowing a whistle.
I noticed elsewhere “Meanwhile, McConchie advised my lawyer that the Michael Mann case that was filed after the Weaver case will go to court on February 20, 2017. I am currently advising witnesses to set the time aside.”
Good luck Professor Ball for today’s court case. Please keep us posted as to the developments.
Solomon,
“It is a pity that Professor Ball spoils an otherwise solid article by starting it with an attack on Dr. Bates. Having seen the denigration and harassment that Professor Ball, even after retirement, has had to suffer for speaking out, is it any wonder that another scientist might prefer to delay before blowing a whistle.”
And if another of the . . participants in the alarmist cause comes forward now, with evidence that they too recently voiced concerns about this or that aspect of what was going on, are they also “off the hook” so to speak, to your mind?
Can each in turn blow that whistle now, and we end up with nothing but heroes after all, who tried to save us from a great . . misunderstanding?
Tim,
You’re vastly over-complicating the situation.
There’s no need for a deep understanding of the history of science and scientists to understand Bates’ tardy confession.
The US government bureaucracy is filled with tortured souls like Bates. They have a cushy job, filled with perks, social respect, nearly unlimited power, very good pay, great health insurance, and an unbelievable pension. In return for these benefits, they just need to sacrifice their integrity and their soul. Go along to get along. Look the other way. Pretend you didn’t see that. A Faustian bargain…
In order to maintain their sanity, these bureaucrats create complicated justifications for their inaction in the face of crimes, sins, malfeasance, misdeeds, and worse. Speaking up would mean loss of all their benefits, public approbation, character assassination, and worse.
Look at the massive misdeeds, just recently, in the IRS, the Department of State, the CIA, the DOD, EPA, Interior, the Veterans Administration, and many, many more. Yet there are very few who speak up. Very few whistleblowers.
Nothing to do with the history of science, or scientific specialization. Just the pitiful facts of the human condition, and human nature.
Doing the right thing has costs and consequences.
Bates cut a deal with the devil. He looked the other way until he was out from under the threat of retaliation. Yet, even when he spoke up, he still maintains his veil of justifications, pretending that all the other bad things were not happening. Of course he knew how corrupt his organization was. But to maintain his facade, he cannot say that. He gets his cake, and gets to eat it too!
Climate scientists like political scientists and Bill Nye the science guy, use science as a marketing or persuasive tool, real scientists don’t need to include “science” in their title, Chemical scientist isn’t necessary, we know what you do.
Great point!
Agree. It’s an astute observation. ‘Persuasion by framing’.
don’t forget that there are NO qualifications to be a scientist … its is known by your work … not your degrees … anyone who has to self label themselves as one is likely not practicing science as much as persuasion …
The absolute truth exists. Period. There is only one truth. What exists, exists. What has happened, has happened.
The trouble is that the absolute truth is unknowable by us puny humans. We have to make do with approximations.
There is such a thing as objective reality and it is within bounds knowable.
We now know for instance that the earth goes around the sun. That’s no longer an hypothesis, as it was when Copernicus posited it, but an observable fact.
That’s approximately true. It takes approximately one calendar year. It’s orbital radius is approximately 93 million miles.
Modern cladistic taxonomy, based upon descent, ie shared derived traits, hasn’t entirely supplanted traditional Linnean taxonomy, which is still used in certain applications.
The platypus and the echidnas were originally placed in the Order Monotremata of Class Primates. Recently some taxonomists have revised this Linnean classification along more cladistic lines, assigning platypus and its fossil relatives to Order Platypoda and echidnas and their fossil kin to Order Tachyglossa in Subclass Prototheria, the sister group to Subclass Theria, including both unranked clade Metatheria, ie marsupials and their extinct ancestors, and clade Eutheria, ie placentals and our ancestors.
The evolutionary biology of monotremes was advanced by sequencing of the platypus genome in 2008 and of an echidna in progress or completed (not sure). There had been a school of thought that monotremes and marsupials were more closely related than marsupials and placentals, but this now appears not to be the case (as most taxonomists had always argued). That is, monotremes branched off from the line leading to therian mammals before the split between marsupials and placentals.
Echidna Venom Gland Transcriptome Provides Insights into the Evolution of Monotreme Venom
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0079092
Should be Class Mammalia, of course. Primates is a different mammalian order.
Some have argued that Darwin’s experiences in Australia, including observing platypuses and studying a specimen shot by a colleague, at the end of his voyage on HMS Beagle, led to his discovery of evolution, but that is not the case. Nor was it in the Galapagos Islands, but at the start of his trip, in South America, particularly Patagonia. We have this on his own authority.
Here is how Origin of Species begins:
“WHEN on board H.M.S. ‘Beagle,’ as naturalist, I was much struck with certain facts in the distribution of the inhabitants of South America, and in the geological relations of the present to the past inhabitants of that continent. These facts seemed to me to throw some light on the origin of species…”
He noted that fossil animals there are related to living species, eg sloths and rheas, although the climate and terrain were suited to species found elsewhere in the world. Biogeography is still today an important study in evolutionary biology. While his observations made sailing around the world convinced him of the reality of the then heretical hypothesis of “transmutation” of species, it was only after returning to England and reading Malthus that he hit on the insight of natural selection as an evolutionary process. Over 20 years would pass before he published Origin, however.
Evolution is the mother of all conclusion-first “sciences”, it seems to me. If one begins with the assumption that every living thing evolved from a common ancestor, then naturally this or that similarity in form/genetic coding (essentially the same thing, since the code determines the form), can seem like evidence that they did, but this is circular reasoning, to my mind. (Regaurdles of whether or not all living things actually so Evolved).
Once that conclusion-first “science” was enthroned, the door was wide open to all manner of circular reasoning based “science”, and the CAGW was just a natural/inevitable result of such assumptive “science” being treated as “settled”.
That is not at all how the fact of evolution has been observed.
The actual genetic changes that produce phenotypic differences can now be observed. We know for instances the mutations which led to human bipedalism and to our larger brains.
As more and more genomes are sequenced, we can observe the degrees of relatedness of various groups, and not only the specific variations which account for physical differences but the non-coding material which shows common descent.
The fact of evolution is better understood scientifically than is universal gravitation.
Speaking of biogeography, isolated oceanic islands of course offer the best instances of explosive evolutionary adaptive radiations. None better than Hawaii:
http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150625-islands-where-evolution-ran-riot
As usual, a superb read and fine insights. I had been asked to take a PhD but declined after having had a protracted battle to get an MSc thesis by two readers with diametrically opposing views in theory (in geology, a magmatist and a metasomatist). Actually most geologists of practical field experience don’t see them as either or situations.
1. I had thought Bates was “the” whistleblower Lamar Smith had back in 2015?
2. Darwin’s failure to consider humans caused me to think, from having six children and from learning the principle ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny in paleontology (growth and development of a creature passes through the stages of its evolution: single cell to adult) that after birth of a child, it continues: 1-4 early primate, 5-8 Neanderthal, 9-18 Cro-Magnon, 19+ hopefully civilized Man.
3. Rocket scientist is an example of your main thesis: there is no such thing.. that would be engineer. After the start of the space age, engineering became the premier discipline that even hard scientists wanted a piece of. Even laundry detergent was “engineered” in the tv ads.
4. I’ve watched climate science learn confounding stuff that was well known in other domains. LIA, MWP, etc. I and a few others still try to teach that coral simply grows upwards when sea level rises, deltas also grow upwards with sea level rise and erode down when the level drops.
5. A few years ago I shamefully dismissed you for being a geographer. I apologize for that and recognize your prodigious knowledge in the field and beyond. I’m a fellow Manitoban and have the sardonic streak that I’m still trying to quell.
Darwin lost his favorite daughter Annie at age 10 to scarlet fever and maybe TB. Two other of Charles and his Wedgwood first cousin Emma’s ten children also died young, to include their last, born five years after the preceding son Horace (KBE, FRS), Charles, who might have had Down’s Syndrome or some other genetic disorder.
Darwin himself worried about inbreeding, but most of their kids were successful, including a number of FRSes. He studied the child psychology of his first born William, comparing his development with the orangutan babies he had already observed at the London zoo.
If we are going to attack all those who come forward now, for not coming forward earlier, the only that will happen is that fewer will come forward.
@ur momisugly MarkW
February 20, 2017 at 6:19 am
If we are going to attack all those who come forward now, for not coming forward earlier, the only that will happen is that fewer will come forward:.
Hear, hear!
I don’t disagree with this stance but I am not excited about lionising those who are overly late to see the light.
the man is a coward … and he was a coward before … that is simply the truth not an attack … if you think that will cause other cowards to become brave I have a bridge to sell you … we need more brave men and women not more cowards …
Nope, physics first, discussing actual, clear cut enigmas. The rest can wait.
The Observed Hemispheric Symmetry in Reflected Shortwave Irradiance
Abstract
While the concentration of landmasses and atmospheric aerosols on the Northern Hemisphere suggests that the Northern Hemisphere is brighter than the Southern Hemisphere, satellite measurements of top-of-atmosphere irradiances found that both hemispheres reflect nearly the same amount of shortwave irradiance. Here, the authors document that the most precise and accurate observation, the energy balanced and filled dataset of the Clouds and the Earth’s Radiant Energy System covering the period 2000–10, measures an absolute hemispheric difference in reflected shortwave irradiance of 0.1 W m−2. […] Climate models generally do not reproduce the observed hemispheric symmetry, which the authors interpret as further evidence that the symmetry is nontrivial.
The difference in average annual clear sky reflectivity of the hemispheres is at least sixty times larger, than in their all sky reflectivity (ocean surface is much darker than land).
It is an amazing regularity in a mindbogglingly complicated system, with no scientific explanation at all. The situation is untenable, yet, no climate scientist is interested, because it is a sui generis scientific question, neither money nor political influence is involved. Sad.
It helps to know Quaternary and Pleistocene geological info on climate and indeed the highs and lows of CO2 and temperature over earth history to at least constrain climate. At least it allows us to not waste time on terminal tipping points. History is a good thing to tap into, too. A painting of the “Frost Faires” on the frozen Thames is a pretty solid piece of evidence, wine grapes grown in Scotland and the farming of Greenland, too. No, in the short few years that I have been following the issue, I’ve seen climate scientists learning confounding stuff that they had to find ways to hide or ignore, stuff brought forward by specialists in other disciplines. Earth history is a big experiment that we haven’t decoded enough. Most of the answers we seek reside there.
You are correct that many answers are available in history, but history is a difficult tablet to decipher. What I have noticed is that climate scientists, in fact lots of people, tend to turn lessons on their head. When they might conclude that historical episodes suggest climate mechanisms we don’t fully understand at present, what they conclude instead is that these episodes tells us all about what to expect in the warm world ahead, which they use as an argument for more grant money. It is very frustrating. The “warmer world ahead” is an axiom for them.
Lately I have been pondering that the atmosphere and oceans contain a lot of symmetry. As you probably already know, systems containing lots of symmetry can be uncontrollable or unobservable or both. Sometimes being unobservable or uncontrollable is a trivial issue of no real importance to engineering systems; sometimes it is very important.
Excellent post Dr Ball. I have found that specialization in science/engineering is often used in the wrong order. For example, to design a steam boiler, one needs a very general understanding of thermodynamics, heat transfer, materials science, structure, economics, etc. Later in the game you need some specialization, metallurgy, for example, to actually understand the very specific requirements of metal used to keep boilers from failing…a common occurrence at first. On the other hand, a metallurgist might not do a great job of designing the boiler in the first place.
Early in my life I wanted to be a Veterinarian. Realizing this as a “stretch goal”, I contemplated what degree to obtain along the way. I chose Physics. When I had looked at all of the disciplines I could choose from, various engineering, various life sciences, various sciences, I quickly determined that Physics was an overarching line of study that could readily accommodate the myriad courses I needed for Vet school…biochemistry, organic chemistry, biology, etc, etc, along with courses that would allow me to get a job absent Vet school, calculus, various engineering (mechanical, electrical, structural, etc). If it was science related, I could pretty much add it to my Physics degree. It was a good move, no Vet school. I started out as a Fire Prevention Engineer…one of the most generalist disciplines in existence. Later on, I wanted to get into Nuclear Power…and went for a Masters in Engineering. I recall that when I applied to the school (WPI), they somewhat scoffed at having “only” a Physics degree. I thought at the time…boy, they really don’t get it. I took a couple of advanced (read specialized) engineering courses to prove my mettle…aced them…and the Dean allowed me to do as I pleased toward my MS in Engineering. Off to Nuclear Power, another extremely generalist discipline. Later on, I started an electronics company (thank you Mr. Physics Degree.)
During all of this (I am retired now, running a 100 year old sawmill), I was continually confounded by the myriad of “specialists” that claimed to know it all (in their areas), but seriously lacking the ability to see where their area of expertise fit in with the big picture. For example, I dealt with PhD in Fire Dynamics involving a fire simulation program (ie model). Using the “state of the art” model, the PhD concluded that a specific situation involving fire exposure to control cables was unacceptable (cables failed). As the area was protected by automatic thermal actuated water sprinklers, I was a bit skeptical. I did some very general approximations, and readily concluded that the sprinklers would actuate and protect the cables. This fell on deaf ears. I then dug a bit deeper, and found that the model was incorrectly simulating radiant heat transfer exposure to the sprinklers. Begrudgingly, the PhD acknowledged this, and after spending nearly 50 grand on the vaunted model analysis, added a disclaimer that the sprinklers would actuate and save the day. The whole exercise was a colossal waste of time and money; all because the specialist forgot that he must be a generalist first.
When I read various posts on WUWT, the more specialized the writer seems, the higher my skepticism grows. I could care less what initials follow their name, what school they did or did not go to, how many papers they wrote. All that matters is that they can coherently argue their position. In the end, nothing else is relevant.
+1 from a geologist, metallurgical engineer, mining engineer and economist (all in one) and all in use.
Scientists appear to have done a good job of diverse data collection.
However there is real and ongoing problem with intelligent interpretation
“However, they mask the larger problems of our inability to describe, understand, and advance in a generalist world that has developed a research structure that glorifies specialists who know a great deal about a minuscule piece but don’t even know where it fits in the larger picture.” And that minuscule piece may not include proper research skills including proper sampling and statistical analysis.
On specialization: “To know more and more about less and less is, in the end, simply to know nothing at all.”