Dr. Judith Curry speaks out on climate science’s fatal flaw – the failure to explore and understand uncertainty

Guest essay by Larry Hamlin

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Dr. Judith Curry conducted an interview on British radio on February 6th  addressing, among many topics, how the politicalization of climate science created and driven by the UN IPCC process has robbed scientists of the opportunity to explore the legitimate, extremely important and yet unaddressed issues of how natural climate change drivers impact the earth’s climate. Her excellent broadcast can be found here:

During the course of her interview Dr. Curry addressed the underlying assumptions contained in the UN IPCC process at its very beginning which simply assumed without establishing scientific evidence that anthropogenic activity was driving “global warming” (which was  subsequently modified to “climate change” after the global temperature “pause”).

This theme was effectively captured by her characterization during the broadcast when she noted the failures of climate models to address pre 1950 natural climate variation –  “If science can’t explain climate shifts pre 1950, how can we trust today’s climate models?

She noted that the IPCC never bothered to do the “hard work” to determine how natural climate variation affected climate change but instead relied on “expert judgement” that man made actions were controlling thus neglecting any opportunity to advance climate science in this very important area.

Dr. Curry has addressed this topic in previous articles written by her (https://judithcurry.com/2014/08/24/the-50-50-argument/) where she challenged the highly questionable computer modeling techniques which attempt to manufacture a divergence between unforced and anthropogenic forced climate model ensemble runs.

In these prior articles she concluded that in using this model driven detection and attribution technique “the IPCC has failed to convincingly demonstrate ‘detection.’

“Because historical records aren’t long enough and paleo reconstructions are not reliable, the climate models ‘detect’ AGW by comparing natural forcing simulations with anthropogenically forced simulations.”

She noted “The IPCC then regards the divergence between unforced and anthropogenically forced simulations after ~1980 as the heart of the their detection and attribution argument. See Figure 10.1 from AR5 WGI (a) is with natural and anthropogenic forcing; (b) is without anthropogenic forcing:”

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Dr. Curry pointed out a number of critical flaws in these comparisons as follows:

“Note in particular that the models fail to simulate the observed warming between 1910 and 1940.

The glaring flaw in their logic is this. If you are trying to attribute warming over a short period, e.g. since 1980, detection requires that you explicitly consider the phasing of multidecadal natural internal variability during that period (e.g. AMO, PDO), not just the spectra over a long time period.

Attribution arguments of late 20th century warming have failed to pass the detection threshold which requires accounting for the phasing of the AMO and PDO.

It is typically argued that these oscillations go up and down, in net they are a wash. Maybe, but they are NOT a wash when you are considering a period of the order, or shorter than, the multidecadal time scales associated with these oscillations.

Further, in the presence of multidecadal oscillations with a nominal 60-80 yr time scale, convincing attribution requires that you can attribute the variability for more than one 60-80 yr period, preferably back to the mid 19th century.

Not being able to address the attribution of change in the early 20th century to my mind precludes any highly confident attribution of change in the late 20th century.”

In these prior articles Dr. Curry concludes that UN IPCC climate models are unfit for use for this purpose, use circular reasoning in claiming detection and fail to assess the impact of forcing uncertainties regarding attribution assertions.

During the broadcast Dr. Curry noted that climate models like those utilized by UN IPCC which attempt to connect climate impacts as being driven by human action in many respects represent “self fulfilling” prophecies from a politically driven agency that has “lost objectivity”  because of its bias in disregarding natural climate variability because its charter is solely focused on anthropogenic climate change.

Dr. Curry also addressed during the broadcast the recent data debacle of NOAA where this organization which is supposed to be preeminent in measuring and evaluating global temperature data has been extremely careless and incompetent in handling it’s temperature data.

She addressed the context of NOAA’s data debacle as being driven by political pressure from the Obama administration which desired this result to support its activities at the Paris climate conference.

She indicated that she has been in contact with NOAA scientist Dr. John Bates over the last 18 months discussing his experience with the lack of scientific rigor in NOAA’s handling of data sets where critical temperature data has not been properly archived, documented or evaluated consistent with standards established by NOAA itself. She noted that Dr. Bates has an extensive discussion of these NOAA data problems on her blog Climate Etc.

She further noted that given the importance that NOAA temperature data plays in global and national regulatory policy decision making regarding climate issues that can require the commitment of trillions of dollars that such data sets must receive and comply with the most rigorous data handling standards which clearly have not been followed.

She believes that funding for the study of natural climate variation needs to be significantly increased and that government political pressure has driven almost all funding toward anthropogenic focused studies.

She also said that in her judgement the climate impacts of man made CO2 emissions on global climate are measured on a “tiny scale”.

She encouraged people who have concerns about the validity of arguments alleging man made climate change to continue to speak out about their concerns.

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Science or Fiction
February 9, 2017 11:13 am

IPCC used circular reasoning to exclude natural variability. IPCC relied on climate models (CMIP5), the hypotheses under test if you will, to exclude natural variability:
“Observed Global Mean Surface Temperature anomalies relative to 1880–1919 in recent years lie well outside the range of Global Mean Surface Temperature anomalies in CMIP5 simulations with natural forcing only, but are consistent with the ensemble of CMIP5 simulations including both anthropogenic and natural forcing … Observed temperature trends over the period 1951–2010, … are, at most observed locations, consistent with the temperature trends in CMIP5 simulations including anthropogenic and natural forcings and inconsistent with the temperature trends in CMIP5 simulations including natural forcings only.”
Working Group I contribution to fifth assessment report by IPCC see: TS.4.2 Surface Temperature . Page 60
What makes that glaring flaw of circular reasoning even worse, is the fact that the models in CMIP5 “overestimate forcing”. As acknowledged by Gavin Schmidt realclimate.org – here:
“17
Mark says:
3 Nov 2015 at 6:41 PM
Apparently Roy Spencer’s CMIP5 models vs observations graph has gotten some “uninformed and lame” criticisms from “global warming activist bloggers,” but no criticism from any “actual climate scientists.” Would any actual climate scientists, perhaps one with expertise in climate models, care to comment? http://www.drroyspencer.com/2015/11/models-vs-observations-plotting-a-conspiracy/
[Response: Happy to! The use of single year (1979) or four year (1979-1983) baselines is wrong and misleading. The use of the ensemble means as the sole comparison to the satellite data is wrong and misleading. The absence of a proper acknowledgement of the structural uncertainty in the satellite data is wrong and misleading. The absence of NOAA STAR or the Po-Chedley et al reprocessing of satellite data is… curious. The averaging of the different balloon datasets, again without showing the structural uncertainty is wrong and misleading. The refusal to acknowledge that the model simulations are affected by the (partially overestimated) forcing in CMIP5 as well as model responses is a telling omission. The pretence that they are just interested in trends when they don’t show the actual trend histogram and the uncertainties is also curious, don’t you think? Just a few of the reasons that their figures never seem to make their way into an actual peer-reviewed publication perhaps… – gavin]”
(The response by Gavin is by: Gavin A. Schmidt; is a climatologist, climate modeler and Director of the NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS))

Reply to  Science or Fiction
February 9, 2017 12:50 pm

“The absence of a proper acknowledgement of the structural uncertainty in the satellite data is wrong and misleading.”
This from the guy who says his GISS surface temps are accurate to within .1 degree even as he’s regularly changing them by an order of magnitude more than that, and despite the fact the satellites were launched amidst hosannas and cheers that the deeply flawed surface datasets could now be discarded as obsolete.

Bartemis
Reply to  talldave2
February 9, 2017 1:49 pm

+1e100

myNym
Reply to  talldave2
February 10, 2017 6:14 am

I suspect Mr. Schmidt will be removed from his office shortly.

Science or Fiction
Reply to  talldave2
February 10, 2017 4:15 pm

Bartemis : “+1e100”
wow! That is the largest number I have ever seen.
“… it is estimated that the there are between +1e78 to +1e82 atoms in the known, observable universe.” – HOW MANY ATOMS ARE THERE IN THE UNIVERSE?
Gavin must be wrong then?

Schrodinger's Cat
February 9, 2017 11:14 am

Judith Curry deserves our gratitude. I hope her comments reach a wide public audience.
It is clear that many of her colleagues know little and care even less about the causes of natural climate variability.They are too busy blaming everything on man made CO2 emissions. Such is the state of climate science.

myNym
Reply to  Schrodinger's Cat
February 10, 2017 6:19 am

Was the state of “climate science”. Past tense.
There is a very real reason that Trump sent out a questionnaire asking which government employees were working on “climate science”. The refusal to supply the answers is deafening. Expect resultant firings.

charles nelson
February 9, 2017 11:18 am

Actually Climate Science’s greatest mistake was its attempts to abolish certainty.
The certainty of the Medieval Warm Period springs immediately springs to mind!

myNym
Reply to  charles nelson
February 10, 2017 6:23 am

Climate Science made few mistakes. It was a bilking. Gore, among others, made a killing.
I would love to see everybody involved forced to divest all of their ill-gotten gains, but that is not likely to happen.
The big question is, how do we prevent another such fleecing?

Paul Westhaver
February 9, 2017 11:18 am

2 Things…
I suspect that most self-described “scientists” fail to understand and therefore practice 1) error analysis, accuracy and precision in measurement, 3) confidence level and 4) uncertainty.
An ignorant public are unaware of these concepts which is why the like of Mann et al can BS the public with Tricks and phony plots.
Ignorance of scientists X malicious intent to deceive X ignorance of the public = CAGW
JC is not among the ignorant nor the liars.

Reply to  Paul Westhaver
February 9, 2017 12:11 pm

You’re dead-on right, Paul.
Awhile back, I posted that climate modelers apparently don’t understand uncertainty at all, nor error propagation.
Recent experience has indicated that they apparently don’t understand calibration experiments, either. Nor what to do with calibration uncertainty, nor how to propagate it into subsequent experiments or calculations.
It’s as though physical error analysis were completely absent in their training, right up to the PhD level.
Climate modeling has sealed itself away from the verdict of experiment and observation. The modelers have made a Platonic playground for themselves, where nothing assumed is ever disproved.

February 9, 2017 11:20 am

Franky, I did NOT care what the radio show was, what its reputation is, or who the radio host is. I actually listened to the exchange of questions and answers, which were intelligent and relevant.
NOT knowing all this stuff about the show and host enabled me to actually listen to the message (imagine that). Why would anybody here use the same tactics that I have seen used against this very blog (WUWT) to discredit its content? I just read a 2010 scathing critique of Anthony Watts and his blog that surely would make any newcomer think twice about listening to some person blasting the credibility of a radio station.
I see an irony within an irony.

Tim Groves
Reply to  Robert Kernodle
February 9, 2017 10:48 pm

Why would anybody here use the same tactics that I have seen used against this very blog (WUWT) to discredit its content?
I quite agree. Go over to the Lib-Tardian and quote something from WUWT and the invective you get thrown back at you would, as we Cockneys used to say, shame a barrow boy. I’s all part of the ad hominem/guilt by association fallacy that is so difficult for intellectually lazy or ethically challenged debaters to resist employing when they are on the wrong side of the actual argument.
It runs like this:
“Who can take anything this “climatereason” person says seriously? After all, he comments on WUWT, which publishes articles by Monckton, who has appeared several times on the Alec Jones channel, where they scare people about FEMA camps, black helicopters, chemtrails, sacrificing virgins at the Bohemian Grove, and even give air time to Piers Corbyn?”
Yes it’s very concerning if you are concerned with maintaining a good recommendation among the scum who are going to slime you in any case. Fair-minded,reasonable unbiased observers, on the other hand, don’t give a hoot.

whiten
February 9, 2017 11:24 am

I am really sorry to put this in as such a controversial point….
Many do indeed engage and interact, if I may put it this way, with AGW and anthropogenic forcing in climate or otherwise terms, but the same many do not even understand the most basic of it, as far as I can tell.
The AGW and the associated anthropogenic forcing, while being hypothetical, it has also a very strong and complicated impact.
Maybe not directly but indirectly it points out to a very complicated and hard to deal concept.
The hypothesis means and basically claims some thing very hard to default as not possible.
And that it is its main merit, and the only one, from my point of view, a view that a lukwarmer like Monckton can never ever really contemplate or even properly understand.
In its very basic the assumed AGW hypothesis it claims and it is connected to one basic principle……;that the radiation and its variation while definitely can not cause climate change naturally, in the prospect of the anthropogenic forcing it may just do that;.
Meaning that radiation and any variation of it due to any natural causes can not and does not cause climate change, till the Anthropogenic forcing considered……
That is the most basic beauty and strength of the AGW hypothesis.
While it may very well be no more than an hypothesis it firmly stands in an undeniable fact….radiation and its variation can not in natural terms cause climate change……either when considering the variation of RF naturally due to CO2 natural variation, or the variation of radiation due to the Sun’s variation or the Milankovich Cycles or albedo or whatever that may normally naturally can cause a variation in the Radiation that the Earth and it’s atmosphere is subjected to…..
I know this is very hard to accept………
cheers

A C Osborn
Reply to  whiten
February 9, 2017 11:36 am

Oh dear a verbose version of Griff.
I remember when Dr Curry first came on here and got quite a “warm” welcome from the denizens, but she stuck with it.
So all the best to her.

K. Kilty
Reply to  whiten
February 9, 2017 12:58 pm

“cheers”?
How dare you.

Mike the Morlock
Reply to  whiten
February 9, 2017 2:32 pm

whiten February 9, 2017 at 11:24 am
Hmm , After reading I most say I understand exactly what you are saying. But I must disagree on one point It is not a “hypothesis” the polite definition is rather a “Mental health issue”
cheers
michael

Reply to  whiten
February 9, 2017 3:27 pm

Whiten
That was a linguistic and logical train-wreck.

Raven
Reply to  whiten
February 9, 2017 4:53 pm

The AGW and the associated anthropogenic forcing, while being hypothetical, it has also a very strong and complicated impact.

Your alleged “very strong and complicated impact” assumes facts not in evidence – i.e. Speculation.

The hypothesis means and basically claims some thing very hard to default as not possible.

A hypothesis not falsifiable is not science.
The easter Bunny is also not falsifiable.
The burden of proof lies with those offering the alternative hypothesis.
My own speculation is that you might consider the possibility that you may also reside with . .

[…] the same many [who] do not even understand the most basic of it, as far as I can tell.

Pamela Gray
Reply to  whiten
February 9, 2017 6:25 pm

Just exactly what are you attempting to postulate?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QqaQ_Bhgmrc

NorwegianSceptic
Reply to  Pamela Gray
February 10, 2017 2:40 am

He’s not the Messiah, he’s just a very naughty boy!

whiten
Reply to  Pamela Gray
February 10, 2017 11:33 am

Pamela Gray
February 9, 2017 at 6:25 pm
Just exactly what are you attempting to postulate?
——–
Hopefully you are no British..:)
That will definitely mean no much to you….but never the less….:)
cheers

Javert Chip
Reply to  whiten
February 9, 2017 9:04 pm

Whiten
Where do you stand on polar bears?
cheers

MarkW
Reply to  Javert Chip
February 10, 2017 8:41 am

I only stand on polar bears after they have been shot and skinned.

fretslider
Reply to  whiten
February 10, 2017 3:24 am

beauty and strength of the AGW hypothesis.
The AGW hypothesis has so many holes in it you could use it as a collander.
In post-normal science, how many times does an hypothesis need to be falsified before it is rejected? Is it 20, 50, 100, 1000?

MarkW
Reply to  fretslider
February 10, 2017 8:42 am

“how many times does an hypothesis need to be falsified before it is rejected?”
One more, always one more.

MarkW
Reply to  whiten
February 10, 2017 8:40 am

hard to accept? How about hard to follow.

Richardw
February 9, 2017 11:29 am

Very good interview but from the point of view of wider credibility it’s a shame the broadcast station is linked with David icke. For this reason I won’t repost this to others

G. Karst
February 9, 2017 11:32 am

She certainly has a better grasp of things than DR. T. I wonder why he won’t open a dialogue with Judith? The griffster mouth slapped silent is another benefit… thx Judith

Schrodinger's Cat
February 9, 2017 11:33 am

It is quite simple. If we had a meaningful, reliable and honest global temperature record over a decent time period, we would not be discussing climate change.

powers2be
February 9, 2017 11:36 am

To pretend that her reasoning is flawed, to argue that the science is settled, the debate is over, that danger is imminent to the next generation and proceed to enact laws as if CO2 is the only driver of Climate Change requires a maniac and petulant disregard for the truth.
To proceed with a study of Natural Climate variability, outside the purview of the UN IPCC, is not only prudent but the most logical next course of action before passing any legislation or implementing any regulations.

stevekeohane
February 9, 2017 11:54 am

Readers may be interested in Judth’s Amicus Ciriae regarding Steyn’s case with Mann. 1/25/2017
https://cei.org/sites/default/files/2017.01.25%20Br.%20of%20Amicus%20Dr.%20Judith%20A.%20Curry%20Nos.%2014-cv-101%2014-cv-126%20%28D.C.%29.pdf

Reply to  stevekeohane
February 9, 2017 12:39 pm

There is a fine line between free speech and defamation.
Best to let Mann continue to freely speak for himself. This could serve to defame him as a serious scientist. He has the RIGHT to defame himself, without the overt help of others, and so I think that he should be awarded a favorable judgement in his defamation suit, awarded a dollar in damages, and then let’s all move on. A dollar is about the worth of his fame as a climate scientist now, I propose. So, let a jury assign this value. Again, as I said in another post on this topic, … poetic justice … the best kind.
The greatest loss in awarding him a favorable judgement wouldl be the loss of press coverage that provides this blog with such entertainment. (^_^)

Reply to  Robert Kernodle
February 9, 2017 2:24 pm

It is actually a wider line in the USA. But then Mann has a defamation suit going and his big mouth is the defendants best defense.

myNym
Reply to  Robert Kernodle
February 10, 2017 6:48 am

I have a slightly different view. I would like to see Steyn’s counter-suit leave Mann penniless.

Mike the Morlock
Reply to  stevekeohane
February 9, 2017 2:46 pm

stevekeohane February 9, 2017 at 11:54 am
COMPETITIVE ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE, ET AL.,
Defendants-Appellants,
and
NATIONAL REVIEW, INC.,
Defendant-Appellant,
v.
MICHAEL E. MANN, PH.D.,
Plaintiff-Appellee.
Not Steyn’s case with Mann. the trials have been separates. See Ristvan’s comments on issue
michael

February 9, 2017 12:08 pm

This was so profound that I had to feature it in a block quote:

Meaning that radiation and any variation of it due to any natural causes can not and does not cause climate change, till the Anthropogenic forcing considered……
That is the most basic beauty and strength of the AGW hypothesis.

More correctly, that would be the most basic FLAW of the AGW (take out the “g” and add “f” and “l” to get “flaw”) … hypothesis [notice the italics on “hypothesis”]
In other words, seriously?!

whiten
Reply to  Robert Kernodle
February 9, 2017 12:20 pm

Robert Kernodle
February 9, 2017 at 12:08 pm
Yes Robert that will be the most basic flaw of the AGW, as you say, but still it is it’s most basic beauty, that I think many do not even properly consider….:)
It is the basic fact that it exploits to propagate itself..:)
cheers

Reply to  whiten
February 9, 2017 12:26 pm

Oh, yes, you are quite right, I totally overlooked the beauty.
There is such beauty in flaws. Hence, the distressed look in furniture, … the unkempt look in grunge.
This then is how science transcends to art, I suppose — It must become FLAWED science.
… such a refreshing insight.

whiten
Reply to  whiten
February 9, 2017 12:37 pm

Robert Kernodle
February 9, 2017 at 12:26 pm
This then is how science transcends to art, I suppose — It must become FLAWED science.
… such a refreshing insight.
——
In my understanding and knowledge, the science and technology and human civilization has evolved and prospered through a lot of errors. flaws and accidents…..especially when such recognized, realized and addressed properly and with no regrets…..at some point.
cheers

Reply to  whiten
February 9, 2017 12:45 pm

Yep, in the greater scheme of human development, flawed hypotheses lead to less flawed hypothesis in new chains of new errors that build new consensus views all ripe to be torn to shreds by a subsequent generation.
Growing pains are hell this way.
We are at a tipping point here, but the locale of this tipping point is not the climate of Earth so much as it is the climate of climate science.

Jan
February 9, 2017 12:08 pm

Although I’ve been following this site, and Judith Curry’s for a while now, I must say that, my trust has gotten a bit bruised just now.
As a climate science layman, I have to rely on the expertise of others to form an opinion. What I have read here and elsewhere these last couple of months has turned me from a flip-flopping don’t-know-what-to-believer into someone who’s convinced that CAGW is a not reality. In that light, it seems in very poor judgement to use a David Icke-affiliated radio show to speak out. Information that comes from such a channel is automatically categorized as ‘pure nonsense’ in my mind.
If it wasn’t for the fact that I have been here reading up on the subject this last year, I would have chucked the entire discourse of WUWT and other sites that share the same views in that ‘pure nonsense’-bin.
I respect Judith Curry, but I feel that she has done more bad than good with this move.

Reply to  Jan
February 9, 2017 12:36 pm

I don’t disagree. I avoid the David Icke crackpot spectrum, but don’t judge Judith too hastily, she simply may not have known of the affiliation. Knowing her, I’m betting that she did not know about it and if she did, probably would not have appeared on it. That said, is there anything wrong with the contents of her commentary?

Joel Snider
Reply to  Anthony Watts
February 9, 2017 12:46 pm

It’s the difference between an explorer who wants to discover the truth and a lawyer who wants to win a case.

Joel Snider
Reply to  Anthony Watts
February 9, 2017 12:49 pm

Whoops, that wasn’t supposed to be a reply – just a comment. Fat-fingered that one.
Although, to continue the thread, it’s worth pointing out that guilt by affiliation is problematic when you consider the tenebrous workings of funding sources, and how it might not be obvious, especially with those who like to work behind the scenes.

Jan
Reply to  Anthony Watts
February 9, 2017 1:19 pm

I’m not judging her merits or expertise. It’s just perceptively unfortunate. The audience that is being addressed will feel like she’s preaching to the choir, but for all the wrong conspirative reasons. and grist to the mill for the AGW camp to discredit her.
But no, what she says is most definitely true.

Tim Groves
Reply to  Anthony Watts
February 9, 2017 11:42 pm

For reference, Richie Allen is an independent journalist and broadcaster. His radio show is syndicated on David Icke’s network, making their affiliation not dissimilar to that between WUWT and WordPress.
Lord Monkton has been on Richie Allen’s show a number of times. He obviously feels that the publicity value makes such appearances worthwhile. Here’s a video in which Christopher uses Richie’s show to attack David Icke.
https://youtu.be/oCk8k-u2Hnk

Reply to  Jan
February 9, 2017 12:51 pm

Jan, I feel that I might have prompted your latest comment, and so I want to follow up.
All I am saying is that the focus on context sometimes is so strong that we can be anesthetized from content.
Consider this little tidbit about Anthony and this very WUWT blog:
https://thinkprogress.org/wattsupwiththat-hypes-itself-with-most-discredited-web-metric-hits-and-keeps-smearing-scientists-dbaab197d8d1#.omfjqbga1
Had you read that before actually engaging with the content here, would you have even started reading the comments here?

Reply to  Robert Kernodle
February 9, 2017 1:01 pm

My “antenna” is more content sensitive than context sensitive.
I, thus, consider the old “you never have a second chance to make a first impression” rule as lazy. Life is made up of quite a bit more than first impressions, … even second or third impressions. It’s a series of ever self-refining impressions that get distilled through your own intelligence.

Jan
Reply to  Robert Kernodle
February 9, 2017 1:59 pm

That’s the unfortunateness of the entire discussion, and I speak from experience: as a bystander, you have to go to such lengths to find out what is true, wading through all sorts of information that obfuscate your opinion. Then, expecting for that bystander to discern valuable information on a site like David Icke’s is beyond what can be expected of a mere mortal.

Reply to  Robert Kernodle
February 10, 2017 7:28 am

It surely is NOT easy to distill a settled view these days. But when something like climate science can be successfully argued from both sides, then THAT dynamic in itself gives me a clue that there are some things that are open to exploration.
Now consider that the side who seems MOST certain tends to try to disable, deny expression, or blacklist people on the other side of their debate. What this now puts before you is (1) a side that argues favorably for its claim and (2) the same side trying to block the other side’s view. Taken together, this leads me to give serious consideration to the side whose view the other side is trying to block from view.
When you see this pattern enough, then the favor starts to fall towards the side raising the most questions, hence, the skeptics.
I’ll repeat yet again that I once was a loyal human-caused-CO2-warming believer, but through a process similar to what I just described, I readily abandoned that belief.
If people, then, call ME a “denier”, then I put a slightly different spin on the label, as follows: You’re darn right I’m a denier — I deny that firm believers of human-caused-CO2-warming know how to spot a scam of epic proportions, when they see one.
Those who truly believe, then, are more like victims in my thinking, rather than villains. As the “Mr. T” of times past would have said, “I pity the fools”.

Reply to  Robert Kernodle
February 10, 2017 11:28 am

The aspect of the interview that struck me as most impressive was the terse, matter-of-fact tone that was never swayed in the direction of name calling or accusatory labels, despite several seemingly strong efforts by the person interviewing to go there. It was as though Dr. Curry had been tutored by a lawyer.
This lends even more credibility to her. Again, THAT’s one of the things that the context revealed to me, and this would remain unchanged, whether she were sitting before a Nobel committee or a group of producers for an aliens-are-among-us TV trash documentary.

Paul Penrose
Reply to  Jan
February 9, 2017 2:54 pm

I don’t know anything about David Icke, this is the first time I’ve heard of him. But, after listening to the interview, Richie Allen does not seem like a crackpot or a moon-landing-denier type. Judith sounded very credible, as I expected.

MRW
Reply to  Jan
February 9, 2017 11:39 pm

Jan, I hit the triangle and turned up my Ultimate Ears Roll 2 (UE Roll 2, great speaker, btw) to listen while I made dinner. Had no clue about any David Icke affiliation–which for all we know may be a financial favor granting web bandwidth, not an ideological marriage…what if Allen is Icke’s brother-in-law?–until I read the comments here.
Then there’s this: who says the aficionados of David Icke aren’t entitled to Dr. Curry’s considerable wisdom? Only the wise ones are entitled to listen to Curry?

scraft1
Reply to  Jan
February 10, 2017 11:51 am

Jan, you make a very good point. It’s sort of like when the skeptic movie (forgot the title) came out, Sarah Palin was recruited for a panel discussion. For most people, you are who you associate with.

John Harmsworth
Reply to  Jan
February 10, 2017 7:43 pm

I wouldn’t know David Icke from Queen Elizabeth but a discerning listener should raise his opinion of the show after listening to Judith rather than lowering their opinion of Judith.

Steve
February 9, 2017 12:19 pm

What do you call a highly educated, unquestionably intelligent, fair minded, PhD and expert on climatology who believes climate skeptics should not be suppressed?
A Denialist!
Bad joke, but we know that’s how some people think. Nice article with a lot of good points in it. We need a lot more people like Dr Curry in the field of climate science.

Johann Wundersamer
February 9, 2017 12:43 pm

For decades IPCC could rely on the ‘glamor of models programmed by experts running zig times on supercomputers’ using a lot of energy working / + cooling said supercomputers.
Everyone kneeling in awe before the gods of ‘healed at last’ gayas bright green future.
Thanks Anthony for a great work.

willhaas
February 9, 2017 2:13 pm

In their first report the IPCC published a wide range of possible values for the climate sensivity of CO2. In their last report the IPCC published the exact same values. So after more than two decades of study the IPCC has learned anything that would allow them to narrow the range of their guesses one iota. The IPCC will not consider research that indicates that the climate sensivity may be much lower than the range of their guesses for fear of losing their funding. It is all politics and not science. Their climate simulations have hard coded in that adding CO2 to the atmosphere causes warming and hence begs the question rendering their simulation as a useless effort.

clipe
February 9, 2017 3:05 pm

Judith Curry will be smeared no matter what, when, why or where.
The important thing is – message delivered.
So what is this ‘David Icke’ kerfuffle about?

Raven
Reply to  clipe
February 9, 2017 5:02 pm

So what is this ‘David Icke’ kerfuffle about?

The kerfuffle is the associated “kook” baggage which just encourages the real kooks to dismiss Judith Curry’s message by that association.

Tim Groves
Reply to  Raven
February 9, 2017 10:56 pm

Why should any non-kook be concerned about kooks calling other people kooks?

MRW
Reply to  clipe
February 9, 2017 11:45 pm

So what is this ‘David Icke’ kerfuffle about?

Zero. It’s snobbism.

Griff
Reply to  clipe
February 10, 2017 5:01 am

David thinks the UK royal family are alien space lizards. No, really he does.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reptilians
“The idea of reptilians was popularized by David Icke, a conspiracy theorist who claims shape-shifting reptilian aliens control Earth by taking on human form and gaining political power to manipulate human societies. Icke has claimed on multiple occasions that many of the world leaders are, or are possessed by, so-called reptilians.”

February 9, 2017 3:56 pm

It’s easy to ridicule believers in conspiratorial ideas such as chemtrai1s. However in a way such people are victims. Individuals with passionate curiosity linked to limited intellectual capacity and logical judgement, with maybe a persecution complex thrown in, will always exist in society – unless and until eugenics comes back into fashion.
Meanwhile our elites who decorate their own sneering pretence of intellect with mindless fuhrer-loyal belief in AGW, indulge in idle and grossly irresponsible speculation about geo-engineering solutions to the grotesquely fantastic non-problem of AGW. Without exception the proposed solutions are massively more destructive potentially than the entirely benign trace gas CO2.
It is understandable that people should feel nervous and apprehensive when elites openly and narcissisticly ponder rashly irresponsible geo-engineering projects. I feel nervous and hope that none of these pseudointellectual chimeras will ever see the light of day and – God forbid – come to pass. Such nervousness is justified and no doubt widespread. In some individuals apprehension at the muddleheaded stupidity of elites manifests itself as conspiratorial ideations such as the chemtrai1s meme. The solution is not to put such conspiracy believers in an asylum, but that the elite-ensconsed proponents of geo-engineering be defenestrated and thrown in prison.

MRW
Reply to  ptolemy2
February 10, 2017 12:41 am

ptolemy2,
They’re not speculation, ptolemy2.
Rosalind Peterson is a retired State of California Dept of Agriculture (DoA) who spent 30 years working on identifying crop losses in the state. She was a Farm Service Agency Agriculture Crop Loss Adjustor. She grew up on a farm and did some other farm-related job before working at the DoA for three decades until her retirement. Her website is http://www.agriculturedefensecoalition.org.
One of her tabs is Geoengineering. There are videos on her site, where she appears with scientists, describing what she discovered on her job about it. Ms. Peterson is prosaic, not flashy nor seeking to make a name for herself, and plain-speaking. Earnest. She doesn’t pontificate about issues. She reports. She supplies, as a good civil servant would, lists of pertinent government-issued documents to back up her assertions. She lists them as a librarian would, with a numbering system that I haven’t figured out.
Under her Geoengineering tab, she lists climate scientist Dr. David Keith, then at the University of Calgary. Now? Harvard.

David Keith has worked near the interface between climate science, energy technology and public policy for twenty years. He took first prize in Canada’s national physics prize exam, won MIT’s prize for excellence in experimental physics, and was listed as one of TIME magazine’s Heroes of the Environment 2009. David’s academic appointments are at Harvard where he serves as the Gordon McKay Professor of Applied Physics in the School of Engineering and Applied Sciences (SEAS) and Professor of Public Policy at the Harvard Kennedy School. David divides his time between Boston and Calgary where he serves as President of Carbon Engineering a start-up company developing industrial scale technologies for capture of CO2 from ambient air. [http://environment.harvard.edu/about/faculty/david-keith]

This supercilious SOB—you’d agree with me if you ever heard this guy talk, especially about his geoengineering efforts; he thinks he’s God—contracted Aurora Flight Sciences in Boston to create a geoengineering program costing a billion/year. Aurora’s document linked on Ms Peterson’s Geoengineering tab is listed as

25 1 2010 University of Calgary Geoengineering Cost Analysis Using Jets October 30, 2010 Aurora Flight Sciences Final Report-Keith.pdf

.
Just read its Executive Summary. It’s stunning. Disturbing B.S.
Dr. Curry may recoil from the discussion, and want to imply tinfoil hat-ism, but any implication that geoengineering isn’t happening, or real, is naive. She need only contact the Royal Society in England. (See Peterson’s site for the official govt docs, and links to parliamentary discussions about it.)

1sky1
February 9, 2017 4:03 pm

[T]he UN IPCC process has robbed scientists of the opportunity to explore the legitimate, extremely important and yet unaddressed issues of how natural climate change drivers impact the earth’s climate.

While there’s considerable truth in that assertion, it fails to recognize something even more fundamental: the lack of scientific bona fides among the great majority those who have established themselves as “climate scientists.” The opportunity to explore “climate change drivers” has never been denied to scientists steeped in the rigorous disciplines of physics, chemistry, and mathematics who have seriously studied geophysical processes. Strangely enough, their hard-won multi-disciplinary findings during the last half of the XX century have been largely ignored in favor of unbridled speculations by environmentalists, geographers, glaciologists, ecologists and a panoply of other “soft science” practitioners about a “greenhouse effect” that–based solely upon unvalidated model results–is believed to rule all climate variations.
Judith Curry’s growing awareness in recent years of the inadequacy of academic grasp of the complexities of real-world climate variations is certainly welcome. But one cannot ignore the remaining gulf between the serious scientific discoveries of eminent geophysicists and the promotion of gimmicky notions of “stadium waves” by author of an applied thermodynamics text that abjectly fails to recognize that evaporation, rather than radiation, is the principal means of heat transfer from surface to atmosphere. Publicly carrying the skeptic banner in the political arena is fine, but it’s no cause for scientific canonization.

DWR54
February 9, 2017 4:20 pm

“…. “global warming” (which was subsequently modified to “climate change” after the global temperature “pause”).
__________________
Here we go again. The ‘IPCC’, the Intergovernmental Panel on CLIMATE CHANGE (pardon my shouting), was set up in 1988. It had that name in 1988 and has retained that name since 1988.
It was not changed because of a ‘pause’; in fact it was not changed at all. Never has been.
People who say that ‘global warming’ was changed to ‘climate change’ some time in the last few years are trying to sell ‘alternative facts’.

clipe
Reply to  DWR54
February 9, 2017 5:33 pm

Problem is, no matter what you call it, interest in the subject is cooling. No need for Pause-Busters.
https://www.google.ca/trends/explore?cat=174&date=2004-01-01%202017-02-09&q=%2Fm%2F0d063v

Raven
Reply to  DWR54
February 9, 2017 5:34 pm

‘alternative facts’

Nope.
In years gone by, the common parlance of discussion in papers, blogs and the media invariably referred to Global Warming. That’s the way I recall it and apparently so do many others.
More recently that common parlance has morphed into Climate Change . . which, incidentally, is as absurd as terminology gets, and thus the AGW denizens trigger themselves into defending the irrelevant.
It’s comical.
That’s not to say that I can’t link to various studies supporting your assertion either. I can.
That alone is a tell as to the desperate need to control the message, seemingly at any cost.
I would refer you to the many early YouTube videos from Jim Hansen.
He’s the recognised father of Global Warming and after all, I’m sure you would recommend we listen to the experts, no?

DWR54
Reply to  Raven
February 10, 2017 1:14 am

The author isn’t referring to the use of ‘global warming’ as “common parlance”.
I quote:
“…Dr. Curry addressed the underlying assumptions contained in the UN IPCC process at its very beginning which simply assumed without establishing scientific evidence that anthropogenic activity was driving “global warming” (which was subsequently modified to “climate change” after the global temperature “pause”).”
He’s specifically referring to “the UN IPCC process at its very beginning”, claiming that the term ‘global warming’ was only modified to ‘climate change’ after the so-called ‘pause’. He’s strongly inferring that the UN IPCC initially referred to the phenomenon as ‘global warming’ (even though it was called the ‘IPCC’ from the outset, and we all know what the ‘CC’ part stands for – i.e. NOT ‘global warming’.)

DWR54
Reply to  Raven
February 10, 2017 1:15 am

Not ‘strongly inferring’, I mean ‘strongly suggesting’ (I do that all the time!).

michael hart
February 9, 2017 5:14 pm

I guess Judith couldn’t be expected to know about David Icke. In the UK, to be associated with him is politically worse than shooting yourself in both feet with the Duke of Edinburgh’s elephant gun. She’s just going to have to laugh it off.

scraft1
Reply to  michael hart
February 10, 2017 12:08 pm

As careful and thorough as Dr. Curry is, it is not likely that she didn’t know about Icke. She must have figured 1) it’s the only avenue I have, or, closely related 2) getting message out in this way was better than putting it on her own blog.
This episode is a great illustration of the dilemma faced by skeptics. They’ve been so successfully vilified that the msm won’t touch them (Wall Street Journal is an exception, but look who owns that paper). Curry is probably the most credible skeptic I know about, and even she was laughed off by the msm.
For the same reasons, skepticism faces an uphill battle even if Trump turns around the orientation of NOAA, EPA and the like. The msm, whom I trust on most matters (climate change being a salient exception), controls conventional wisdom. This will change very slowly even if skepticism wins the day in the short run.

February 9, 2017 6:33 pm

Amen, Judith. Amen. A scientist from the pharmaceutical sciences here, where the difference b/w exploratory research is distinct from that of regulatory submisson.
BTW, any “scientist” that must use a court of law to defend his claim is no scientist at all. You know of whom I speak, he who shall not be named🖕

RBom
February 9, 2017 8:49 pm

[comment violates site policy -deleted]

Roger Knights
Reply to  RBom
February 10, 2017 2:00 am

They’re currently in the process of encouraging participation in the scientists’ march in April in DC, according to WaPo.

February 9, 2017 9:22 pm

Maybe a Global Cooling will invigorate Jim Hansen and his cold blooded minions to a happy place. But Lo, his minions and Jimmy have no happy place. But maybe one day will they smile at their folly.

Rob
February 10, 2017 12:01 am

One great honest Scientist!!!