
Guest essay by Eric Worrall
The British Drax biomass plan has received a substantial setback. The Drax project is a plan to “save” the environment by chopping down vast tracts of forest in the USA and Canada, shipping the wood to Britain, and burning it in a modified coal plant. But the government subsidies Drax negotiated to make this scheme profitable, have attracted negative attention from European regulators.
According to The Telegraph;
Blow to Drax biomass plan as EC launches state aid investigation
European Commission raises concerns that proposed subsidies for biomass conversion may be too generous.
Drax’s hopes of securing lucrative subsidies for its biomass conservion have suffered a setback after the European Commission launched a full state aid investigation over concerns the payments may be too generous.
The Yorkshire-based power plant is in the process of switching from burning coal to biomass, and was awarded a £1.7bn Government subsidy contract in April 2014 for the third of its six units – subject to state aid approval.
The contract would see Drax paid a fixed price of £105 for every megawatt-hour (MWh) of biomass-fired power the unit generated until 2027 – well over double the current market price.
Drax shares fell 5pc on Tuesday after the European Commission said it was concerned that the rate of return from the subsidies “could be higher than the parties estimate and could lead to overcompensation”.
Even green news outlets like The Ecologist have condemned the Drax scheme as being damaging to the environment. I suspect this attack by the über green European Commission, against the increasingly unpopular Drax project, might end up being the final blow to this bizarre plan to “save” nature by chopping down the trees.
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Save the planet by chopping down trees ? #%$^#$% insanity !
Follow the Money – it is obvious corruption by government to pursue/allow this witless venture.
It’s a plot to make room for all those artificial trees by cutting down real ones!
Belated “/sarc” tag.
Gunga Din, here in London, Ontario, Canada, they actually did that..They cut down all the trees in the downtown area and replaced them with the ugliest metal monstrosities that they called ” Tree Art ” .. Liberal insanity is everywhere !!
‘They took all the trees
Put ’em in a tree museum
And they charged the people
A dollar and a half
just to see ’em.’ – Joni Mitchell
Our MPs are quite stupid enough to make bad decisions without financial inducement.
Follow the Money – it is obvious corruption by government to pursue/allow this witless venture.
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
It doesn’t even have to be The Commission …
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/11721506/New-Hinkley-Point-nuclear-plant-faces-legal-challenge-from-Austria.html
You just couldn’t make this stuff up.
Every time you see a “renewable” project, there always seems to be a guaranteed payment well over market prices.
Kill a tree in Canada, power a fraudulent green tax sucking scam in the UK – Yea that sounds like a typical warmist idea!!
Sure does make sense though, protect the environment from nasty Fossil CO2 by destroying the carbon sinks
Makes more room to plant Wind Turbines.
Owners of wind turbines, solar panels and biomass power plants are paid subsidies for the electricity they generate. The subsidies are funded by levies on consumer energy bills. The total cost of subsidies was supposed to be limited to £7.6 billion in 2020 but is now on track to hit £9.1 billion.
The costs on your bill:
£45 Estimated cost per household of key green subsidy schemes in 2014
£92 Supposed cost per household of subsidies in 2020 under spending cap
£110 Forecast actual cost per household of subsidies in 2020 due to overspend
But it is much more than that.
A couple of years ago, the Chairman or CFO of Scottish & Southern Energy (SSE) in an interview for the BBC, explained that over 50% of the electricity bill is incidental to the renewables programme. The bill is made up of 3 components; the cost of supply accounts for 50%, 25% is infrastructure works, and 25% is for rolling out green deals such as help with house insulation, double glazing, eco boiler replacement and help for those in fuel poverty.
But what is interesting is the detail behind this breakdown. The infrastructure is coupling windfarms and STOR to the grid, so that is 25% directly applicable to going green. The 25% for supporting house insulation, double glazing, eco boiler replacement and help for those in fuel poverty is also the result of going green since bills have more than doubled that has led to fuel poverty. So one can see that 50% of the bill is directly the result of going for renewables.
Then as you note, the cost of supply has been put up since the electricity supplier is forced to purchase when available energy from renewables at the high strike rate agreed, and pay windfarms not to supply energy when they produce to much energy and destabilise the grid, and of course, the carbon floor price levied on coal and gas.
The upshot is that close to about 60% of the electricity bill is entirely the result of rolling out renewables. this means that every UK householder pays about £225 per year for the renewable revolution.
The position on gas is less stark since gas does not have the new infrastructure, nor the high strike rate agreed, and therefore only has the element dealing with the carbon floor price, and the element dealing with help with house insulation, double glazing, eco boiler replacement and help for those in fuel poverty, which because gas bills are higher, only accounts for about 10% of a gas bill. If the average gas bill is about £900, the then gas customer is paying about £90 per year for the renewable revolution..
If only it was just £45 per year, my wallet reckons that Richard Verney’s figures of 60% is nearer the mark and even that feels like an underestimate!!!
Gee, I thought the picture was from an albedo generator 😀
And then they transport it all the way from the US to Yorkshire – which itself has about 300 years of coal reserves. As Christopher Hitchens said (I paraphrase) – you can get away with any lunacy you want as long as it’s done in the name of religion.
Maybe a little off topic, but I see in the paper this morning that Cluff Energy have abandoned their plans for Underground Coal Gasification in Scotland and are concentrating on England.
So no fracking, no UGS, no new Nuclear, just wind, sun and tides for us. At the moment (9:40) the sun has just risen and will reach about 12 degrees above the horizon at Noon, the tides are at neaps just now (supposing the tidal projects ever become viable) and there is no wind.
I had better go out and cut some more wood for the fire.
Not “no UGS” but “no UCG”.
Stupid computer.
Or settled science.
“It’s a plot to make room for all those artificial trees by cutting down real ones!”
It wouldn’t surprise me.
@ur momisugly Marcus –
Insanity underlies the whole ‘European Project’ – it has become an anti-democratic fantasy land where the unelected and unelectable dictate what the EU subject Nations (like Britain) must or must not do. That is done, where the environment is concerned, using ‘consultation’ with green organisations that the EU fund to advise them and to help make policy for the EU – so in effect you have the likes of Greenpeace, WWF, Friends of the Earth etc creating the policy framework for the whole of Europe.
Small wonder the EU’s ‘environmental policies’ are such a monumental disaster. And the depths to which green activists have embedded themselves in all levels of government is equally concerning – hence why after the floods in the North of England residents are forced to ask why freshwater mussels are considered more important than people whose homes are now routinely flooding because of policies to protect the mussels !!
I have long believed, and I think with good justification, that the EU has been the ‘test bed’ for approaches and structures for the UN’s unelected global government intended to be created off the back of the ‘climate change’ scare.
Worth reminding or pointing out to those who are not familiar that on the few occasions when an EU member state has had a referendum on leaving the EU – they are forced to keep re-running it until the people vote to stay. Similarly worth remembering is that the EU forced the replacement of heads of government in Greece and Italy by their own ‘placemen’ and on the election of a right wing leader in Austria they told the Austrians to get rid of him because he was right wing.
happy days – the lunatics are in charge of the asylum …………
I have long believed, and I think with good justification, that the EU has been the ‘test bed’ for approaches and structures for the UN’s unelected global government intended to be created off the back of the ‘climate change’ scare.
And you wouldn’t be the first. It is an exact ‘template’ for The UN.
A World where ‘accountability’ (of figureheads) is much discussed by the ‘bureaucracy’ but in reality people have ‘stuff’ done to them. No consent is required, just fund a panel of ‘experts’ to produce the ‘science’ required to back your desired policy. It isn’t as though the public will ever get to vote on the policy.
It’s a shame that The US is heading down this route. I had high hopes for my young daughter getting out of it all (The EU) by the simple expedient of heading ‘West’ with a healthy bank account. I’m fast running out of alternate plans for her future.
(unable to edit my post above) …
Comes to something when ‘Communist’ China is now one of my top three destinations for her. It would probably be at the top if it were not for the obvious language barrier.
Best comment yet !
Totally agree.
EU = European Useless = OPM Dealers = Other People’s Money Dealers
and shipping them across the Atlantic Ocean!
Opening paragraph to Climate Central’s investigative report: Pulp Fiction
http://reports.climatecentral.org/pulp-fiction/1/
MRW
[…] In England and across Europe, wood has become the renewable of choice, with forests — many of them in the U.S. — being razed to help feed surging demand. […]
Erm … All of them from The US. You couldn’t, legally, cut a single sapling down within The EU without a years worth of paperwork. Don’t even think of cutting down enough, in Europe, to feed Drax for even a month. That ‘proposal’ would have you held up in The ECJ for the next ten years.
The idea is that SC and other (SE/SW) States are so desperate for money that they will have no problem ‘leveling’ their landscape. HMG can pretend to be ‘green’, Drax can make a fortune and SC can pretend that their trees will grow back sometime soon.
Everyone’s a winner. (Why am I always reminded of … ‘It became necessary to destroy the town to save it’,)
I’m very upset about this.
A lot of Canadian and American forest industry workers may well lose their jobs. Plus all the trucking and services industry workers to support them. Not to mention the processing companies and the shipping companies. If the UK wants to export their money to us, I see no reason to stop them.
The trees will grow back (and we’ll sell them again!)
+10
Curious just where all this logging in the States and Canada is supposed to be since logging has all been but shut down in the Pacific Northwest.
The southeast US seems to be the source of the wood. I haven’t heard anything about wood from New England. Wood grows faster down there. Warmth and length of growing season….
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-22630815
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3113908/How-world-s-biggest-green-power-plant-actually-INCREASING-greenhouse-gas-emissions-Britain-s-energy-bill.html
( davidmhoffer ) +100
_____________________________
The trees will grow back (and we’ll sell them again!)
But this won’t happen for at least another hundred years. I’m surprised that US ‘environmentalists’ are not ‘going ape’ about what is happening. (or going Nuclear 🙂 as we might say today )
Amount of wood being planned to be shipped to Drax each year: about 1.5 Million Tons.
Amount of wood being processed in the US each year: about 350 Billion Tons.
Amount of wood being processed INTO TOILET PAPER in the US each year: 160
Million Tons.
We are talking about sending 2 1/4 MINUTES of our Annual wood harvest to Drax. Less then 1% of what we flush down the potty. I’m not worried we’ll deforest the US with this anytime soon.
So joining the cannibal feast and prolonging it is your idea of the right thing to do, david?
What does that make you?
What does that make you?
sarcastic?
ktnx.
sarcastic?
….smart
So joining the cannibal feast and prolonging it is your idea of the right thing to do, david?
If you are replying from an iPhone or some such device then one can forgive such ‘Mosheresque’ comments. In the event that one has a full keyboard available then… Could you elaborate?
There’s a lot more margin in OSB, engineered wood products and stick lumber than in firewood.
fossilsage,
Mostly along the SE coastal plain — North Carolina to Georgia, I think. Paul Homewood has done several posts on DRAX.
David, the POTUS can count all the jobs you mention as “green” jobs. See how that works?
If the CO2 level gets high enough, say 1200 ppm, maybe the additional growth from CO2 fertilisation will exceed the harvested biomass needed to run the plant. At least then there would be no harm done.
The ‘destroy the forest in order to save it’ meme has a familiar ring to it. Was it coined by the Green-industrial complex?
I think this whole climate change issue is a moot point now that refugee muslim men, who were welcomed into various countries in Europe, find that it’s ok to mob rape the local women in these welcoming, stupid, liberal countries. As a citizen of the U.S. I feel a great affinity with Europe because my ancestors came from there. Irish, English, German, Swedish, Prussian. WTF is Merkel thinking? Progressive idiocy? If it was my wife, daughter, girlfriend, etc, I would be out for blood from these anti social, pig, muslim pieces of crap and kick them all out back to where they come from. Go back to your slum, scum and keep to yourselves like you are doing anyway everywhere you go. Is Europe lost now, after 1000 years of keeping the rapists and killers out?
Pardon me, those of you who may take offense to my rant. This is a clash of a civilized society against a very anti civilized group of brainwashed from birth anti social psychopaths.
Which group are you in?
seaice1
Here’s your sign.
“The operation was a complete success. Unfortunately the patient died.”
+100
Drax’s management seem happy with the concept of burning wood pellets shipped from overseas as long as subsidies are in place to make this viable. This says as much about the amoral nature of capitalism as it does about green stupidity.
Taking money from one group of people in order to subsidize your friends is socialism, it has nothing to do with capitalism.
Government-encouraged crony capitalism?
Governments taking the money unfairly as a subsidy is socialism. Accepting it is amoral (no matter who accepts it).
According to the british PM its progressive
Stephen Richards
January 8, 2016 at 4:58 am
According to the british PM its progressive
“Metastasizing” also fits the bill …
Arnold1 reveals a bit about the indoctrination of persons who call state subsidies ‘capitalist’, too.
It also reveals the crude and clumsy way the mullah promotes his liberal ‘sharia’ by abusing the concept of morality while pretending to it.
Capitalism is the economic system that is based on the recognition of the right of the individual to own property, including himself and the fruits of his labor. The individual who finds this to be immoral is properly known as a cannibal.
“Arnold1 reveals a bit about the indoctrination of persons who call state subsidies ‘capitalist’, too.”
I am not calling the subsidy capitalist. I am saying that Drax’s management are amoral because they are willing to accept money stolen from taxpayers. This is amoral by definition.
My main disappointment is that they don’t have a subsidiary called Drax Industries:
http://jamesbond.wikia.com/wiki/Drax_Industries
Arnold1, I think you are confusing “amoral” with “immoral”.
“Amoral” means neither moral nor immoral – i.e. utterly lacking in morals, either good or bad. Fish, for example, are amoral.
“Immoral,” on the other hand, means the opposite of “moral,” and connotes evil or licentious behaviour.
So what you are actually saying, intentionally or unintentionally, is that capitalism, and by extension Drax, is neither moral nor immoral.
>> They don’t have a subsidiary called Drax Industries.
No, but they do have an evil superhero called Drax the Destroyer. Quite apt, I would say.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drax_the_Destroyer
I was taught that doing something immoral was similar to taking the money from a blind beggar’s tin; doing something amoral was thinking about taking the money.
My main disappointment is that they don’t have a subsidiary called Drax Industries:
Try thinking of it as green bioengineering.
“willing to accept money stolen from taxpayers. This is amoral by definition.”
Yeah, like soldiers and policemen. Amoral, the lot of them. Not my opinion, apparently it is by definition.
The other alternative for Drax is to be closed down by the government in 2025 so they made the choice and took the money. Capitalism works best with minimal government interference. The UK energy industry is completely ruined by government meddling through subsidies for ‘renewables’ and taxes on reliable generation. The losers are the population through higher bills and fewer jobs as industries close down. Some people strangely think the UK has a right wing conservative government.
This initiative started under the Labour Govt of Gordon Brown. I was working in Yorkshire at the time and heard the stories in 2008.
How anybody ever thought that clear-felling US forests, chipping the wood and then shipping it 3000 miles to burn it was a better idea than using the coal that Drax is sitting on top of (that being the reason why it was built there and not somewhere else) is beyond me.
And how burning wood + all the CO2 emitted by that and the processing of the wood in the first place and the emissions from shipping the stuff is better for the environment than burning the local coal is something that only an environmentalist could understand.
Another entry for the “Believe It Or Not!” category; a group of self-styled environmental do-gooders in NW Wyoming decided in 1991 they’d prohibit natural wood fueled stoves and instead require installation of wood pellet stoves that burned “cleaner”. The problem? Wood pellets were manufactured in Sand Point Idaho by a corporation named Lignetics. They were then shipped 700 miles by diesel truck to Wyoming where they were burned. To make matters worse, catalytic wood stoves burn cleaner than pellet stoves, which aren’t even tested for emissions.
Of course NW Wyoming is literally covered with naturally occurring softwood forests and for a $5/year permit from the US Forest Service residents can gather all the dead wood they can burn. No one stopped to think about the particulates pumped into the air by the diesel trucks. It would be laughable in its gross stupidity if the head of the organization that banned the wood stoves didn’t own a distributorship for Lignetics products that covered the whole county.
The more hilarious part (that’s only if you love that kind of very dark humour) is the when they say that:
– CO2 reduction is an emergency for in the next decade (not the next century), hence nuclear plant building is too slow and not a solution
– there are “tipping points” which can make the problem worse
These trees could have continued to grow and fix carbon atoms for a long time. The release of the carbon atoms is done in a instant (in term of tree lifetime). Nuclear plant planning and building may be “slow” (compared to the time needed to chop a tree), but tree growth is SLOWER. Have trees growing next to a nuclear plant and see which one earns “carbon credit” faster!
The justification for burning wood (and not coal) is that mother Earth will make more wood (and not coal) in a time comparable with human life and economic expectancy (we do economic planning for the next decades and the heads of state plan for the next centuries.
That would make sense as an economic policy if
– burning wood could provide a substantial part of our thermal energy needs – it can’t
– burning wood were “clean” in term of emissions like particulate pollution and gaz (not CO2) – it isn’t
– buying wood were cheaper than other combustible resource – it isn’t, especially when it becomes n nation-wide policy and everybody is buying it
As a local energy choice, wood makes sense. That’s all.
If “carbon” (carbon atoms) is a pollutant, than a forest is a dumb, and burning it makes as much sense as burning La Hague.
The policy is complete craziness, like the policy for renewable energy justified by “localisme”, where you justify “renewable energy” by the too high distance between from nuclear plants and consumers and then promote:
– hydro (but half the hydro production of France is in the region of the Rhone)
– wind turbine and solar panels.
When confronted with the issue of intermittency, the same uber-greens suggest that very high tension power lines could be build to transport power from sunny Spain to Germany (and back when wind blows in Germany); that’s just about one thousands km frontier to frontier. But then the power lines would be very “local”.
Some (very-uber)-greens even suggest that solar power is sufficient for ALL our energy needs because “the sun always shines somewhere”.
But then, “localism” done with 1000 km power lines, fixation over “carbon” and saving “mother Earth” by destroying forests aren’t in the DSM, so they aren’t mental diseases, right?
“the sun always shines somewhere”.
Except where the sun don’t shine?
There are plenty of good uses for trees. Burning them to produce electricity isn’t one. It is downright stupid, in fact. Now add the cost of shipping it across an ocean, and all the consequent additional trucking, loading and unloading until it reaches its destination and you have insanity.
shipping – oil
trucking – oil
loading and unloading – oil
Wood doesn’t have the energy density of oil.
@Latitude
There are plenty of good uses for (oil). Burning (it) to produce electricity (for the grid) isn’t one.
@ur momisugly simple- touriste
Pardon, but very a very small % of electric power is generated by using oil as fuel.
>>Wood doesn’t have the energy density of oil.
And it has the tendency to spontaneously combust. These wood pellets have to be kept damp, to stop a conflagration. I am wondering when the first wood-chip cargo vessel will go down in flames.
R
Bartleby – Wood doesn’t have the energy density of oil.
It does if you lay it down, under tremendous pressure, for a few million years :^}
davidmhoffer January 7, 2016 at 2:42 pm
“Plus all the trucking and services industry workers to support them.” Don’t forget all the oil patch and refinery workers to keep the trucks fuelled.
How long before we reach Peak Stupidity!
Like with peak oil: peek and ye shall find.
After the EPA ‘registered’ CO2 as a ‘pollutant’ (with water, sunlight and plants, the very core of the Planetary food chain), I gave up on the idea that there is any such thing as ‘Peak Stupidity’.
Seriously – That was the day I simply ‘gave up’. My hands went into the air and I wished for the ‘quick option’ of Nuclear War. These (EPA and many others) people are trying to sign the ‘death warrant’ of our wonderful Planet.
I will try it again for the ‘hard of everything’ …
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosynthesis#/media/File:Photosynthesis_equation.svg
I have to wonder just how much using North American tree pellets as fuel really gets them. The CO2 produced in the process of chopping down, pelletising and all the transport to and from the processing points must add up.
Shhhhh
I have asked that question of my environmental friends many times and the answer is that “wood is carbon neutral” because in a 100 or 200 years or so it will have recaptured all the CO2 that was burned in the process. I also have a very nice bridge for sale. 😉
If that bridge goes to Brooklyn I want it!
because in a 100 or 200 years or so it will have recaptured all the CO2 that was burned in the process
=============================================================================
so why not simply burn coal and plant more trees? in a 100 or 200 years or so the trees will have recaptured all the CO2 that was created from burning coal. That would cost a lot less, and the end result would be the same as burning trees today.
Ah, but they conveniently “forget” all that nasty “carbon pollution” emitted during the entire process of getting from standing trees in a forest to a useable fuel at a power plant. This is the same sort of “thinking” that goes into the idea that solar and wind energy is “free”.
@Wayne Delbeke, how do they explain forest fires?
MRW – some are sane and some quote stuff like this:
http://trendsupdates.com/forest-fires-cause-20-of-co2-emissions/
I strongly object to the image used to promote your article. We’re not stupid enough to think wood smoke is escaping from nuclear plant cooling towers; that’s a tactic commonly employed by “climate deceivers”. That said only liberal idiots could conceive a scam to burn our forests to produce electricity—in any country.
Um, no, its a picture of the Drax coal power plant, according to Wikipedia (see the image top right).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drax_power_station
For some reason Americans tend to Associate parabolic cooling towers with nuke plants. Not sure why.
Fraiser
It goes back to the “cooling tower” Wikipedia answer copied elsewhere on this page. Forgive the details here, but each “detail” matters towards the final answer to your question.
Water on the surface of a hot steel surface (a tube) transfers heat energy by several DIFFERENT boiling conditions: nucleate boiling, film boiling, water-to-water vapor directly, water-to-saturated steam, water-to-superheated steam, etc. Each depends on water flow rate, heat transfer rate, cleanliness of the water and steam, percent of steam present, flow rate of the steam, etc, etc, etc. A coal-fired or gas turbine heat recovery steam generator “doesn’t care” about the heat exchange “method”, it is designed to transfer as much as heat possible as soon as possible at the gas temperatures and water temperatures present at each square cm of the tubes and tubesheets. The penalty for “failure” of a tubesheet or tube is “lost water”, less efficiency, a shutdown to fix the leak, but no catastrophic dangers. No long-term problems. “Only” lost production time, the cost of the repair, and the lost revenue. Not trivial at any time, but recoverable.
The gas turbine heat recovery steam generator or the coal-fired boiler is expensive, but they are direct heat transfer units: a very hot gas on one side of the tube, and the water being heated on the other side of the tube. Just about as simple as you can get in the complicated world of thermodynamics and fluid flow. Boilers, pressure vessels, pipe design, valve design, and weld designs we won’t go into.
A nuke is different. It starts with fuel pellets (ceramic cylinders) sliding (not a perfectly solid fit!) inside a tube that is inside a high-pressure water system. So, the pellet heats up, transfers heat through the ceramic to the gap to the inside wall of the tube, through the tube,, through that boiling heat transfer film to the water outside the tube. See the losses? MUCH HIGHER in a nuke than in a fossil plant. So the high pressure nuclear-grade water starts out at a lower temperature than the high pressure pressure water/steam in a fossil plant. Lower temperature = less efficient!
But! The nuke IS a critical system, and we don’t want nucleate boiling or film boiling at the outside of the fuel tubes because it “might” get too hot at the hottest rod of the hottest fuel bundle of the most poorly toleranced fuel pellet in the entire reactor at the worst point of the entire fuel cycle loading and fuel history.
SO, we prevent ANY nucleate boiling or film boiling at the hottest part of the reactor … which prevent ANY efficient nucleate or film boiling at ANY point of the reactor – even those that are “cooler” at any given time than the hottest part of the hottest fuel rod. Result is the entire reactor on average is running MUCH less efficient (much cooler) than is theoretically possible for the rest of the reactor all of the time.
Again, lower temperatures mean less efficient heat transfer.
So, because of their lower heat transfer efficiency, nuke plants must reject (send to the cooling water and cooling air) MORE heat energy than fossil plants for the SAME output electrical power sent to the power lines.
But it gets even worse than that!
About 2/3 of today’s nuke plants are boiling water reactors (GE designs) and about 1/3 are Westinghouse Pressurized water reactor designs. In the BWR, the “boiled water” is turned into saturated steam and goes to the turbine. BUT! Saturated steam designs are LESS EFFICIENT than the superheated steam designs common (and relatively easy to build) into fossil fueled power plants.
But it is even worse than that!
The other 1/3 of US nuke plants are pressurized water designs by Westinghouse. Those plants have to transfer all of THEIR heat through the reactors tubes to the primary water, transfer that hot primary water out of the reactor to the steam generator, then transfer that heat through the steam generator tubes to the final outside secondary steam water, then to the turbine. Every transfer loses heat heat energy – though every effort possible is made to reduce such losses – so the final Westinghouse “steam” is less efficiently produced than the GE steam. Cleaner, less radioactive, easier and cheaper to maintain, etc, etc. But still less efficiently produced than a comparable fossil-fueled gigawatt of electricity.
Because of their regulations, a nuke plant requires MUCH MORE “support and staff” per plant than a fossil powered plant does FOR THE SAME AMOUNT OF POWER OUT! (More engineers, more QA techs and radcon techs and enviro techs, and more secretaries and copiers and security staff and more tooling technicians and more test engineers, more procedure writers and trainers and evaluators, etc, etc. SO, to get as much out of THAT staff as possible, it makes sense to make the nukes as large as possible, and run them as long as possible (because once built and fueled up, a nuke has very, very low RUNNING costs!) and to combine 2 or 3 nuke plants INSIDE one physical site so they all can share the same fence and security and engineers and secretaries and legal staff and enviro staff.
But!
If you do that “sensible” design and arrangement, you end up with 2 or 3 LARGE nukes inside the same fence, EACH rejecting MORE heat energy to the environment than a comparable fossil-fired plant, because EACH nuke plant is less efficient than its equal-sized fossil plant.
Running a 1 or 2 unit nuke plant in the winter rejects a lot of heat energy to the local water supply (a lake, bay, or river).
Running the same 1 or 2 nuke plants in the summer rejects MORE heat energy into that same local body of water (lake, bay, or river.)
For many years, the local enviro groups INSISTED than nuke plants be limited in how much heat energy could be rejected, citing “environment” concerns almost all of the time. So, to reduce the heat energy sent into the “water” of the local bay or river, the nuke plant designers began rejecting the excess heat energy released into the air (because there were almost no regulations for “heating up air” compared to “heating up the fishies’ water!” that could be measured.
The best, least costly, way to heat up the air is through the hyperbolic cooling towers. So, American nuke plants became associated with hyperbolical cooling towers BECAUSE OF their thermodymanics and envirodynamics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drax_power_station
Follow the link to see the original picture of the plant. Carbon burning thermal power plants need cooling towers just like nuclear powered plants.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooling_tower
Australia’s largest power station ……
http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh154/crocko05/Bayswater%20Power%20Station2_zpsbbkewqcl.jpg
…… btw, it’s 100% coal-fired.
Wow.. look at all that horrible CO2 gushing from the cooling towers 😉
Why isn’t it backlit !!!!!
“cooling tower”
============
human beings have not yet invented an engine that can produce power with a hot side only. all engines require a hot side and a cold side, and the efficiency is determined by the temperature difference. Thus the cooling towers.
the interesting point RACookPE1978 made is the inherent low efficiency of water cooled nuclear reactors, due to the small temperature differential between water and low pressure steam. High pressure steam is much more efficient, but this involves the problems of a high pressure containment vessel. It is OK if you are containing water, but not OK if you are containing radioactive material.
Thus, the advantages of cooling nuclear reactors with something other than water, with a higher boiling point. For example a lead cooled reactor could function at standard atmospheric pressure with much higher efficiency than a water cooled reactor at the same atmospheric pressure.
Not far from where we live Andy, Bayswater. Unfortunately I don’t have any photo-shopped or dusk -dawn photos.
I’m surprise that we pay to burn the tree pellets.
Surely according to perfect green anti-CO2 CAGW logic, it would actually be far more beneficial to load the trees into weighted cages on barges and then dump them into the deep ocean.
Ideally in a subduction zone.
Hence sequestering the evil “carbon pollution”.
Maybe they could set up submarine bases in the Netherlands and send eco-nazis on missions into the Atlantic to sink the convoys of wood pellets.
Why is it left to me to come up with all the best ideas?!!!
What about convoys to sink eco-Nazis into subduction zones?
Prof. Peter Wadhams probably already thinks that we are planning to dispose of him in this manner.
That’s the problem with alarmism.
Alarmists tend to get alarmed very easily!!!
That too!
indefatigablefrog
Because the greenies know that all of the current Swedish and Netherlands/German/Japanese submarine designs are diesel powered.
To sink the trees environmentally safely requires a FR/UK/US/USSR/Chinese submarine. Indian subs might become available soon!
Yeah, well if they can send Obama to Paris in Airforce One, then I see no problem using a wolf-pack of diesel u-boats – for the “service of the greater good”.
Nobody ever said that saving the world was going to be painless!!!(sarc).
should we do that with the coal also. To make it absolutely safe!
We had to switch from paper to plastic to “save the trees”, despite the fact that brown paper bags were made from trees specifically grown for that purpose.
So now we’re burning them instead. Indeed, insanity.
…you read my mind
And don’t forget that now we are evil for using plastic ….
I remember the local news Item on TV about the Drax biomass plant a year or so ago – saying it would be cheaper, greener, etc. What I do NOT remember is any mention of my taxes being used to subsidise the process!
European Commission raises concerns that proposed subsidies for biomass conversion may be too generous.
Drax’s hopes of securing lucrative subsidies for its biomass conversion have suffered a setback after the European Commission launched a full state aid investigation over concerns the payments may be too generous.
Does anyone else remember when Britain was an independent nation that a one time had the motto “The Sun never sets on the British Empire”? What date will the history books show as when they were conquered by a bunch of Brussels Bureaucrats?
How the mighty have fallen.
That’s what I was wondering. Who is Drax’s contract with, the UK? In which case EU can drop dead. Or UKIP gets more and more votes.
lets hope UKIP are not an advocate of this stupidity, please.
What ever happened to Tree Hugging? Or is it called Biomass Hugging now?
They you can tell when a lawyer is lying: his lips are moving. Likewise, you can tell when a progressive lying: they invent a new name for something.
What ever happened to Tree Hugging? Or is it called Biomass Hugging now?
Il bacio della morte?
Tree’s Lives Matter…
Branches up, don’t root!
I would like to make 3 powerful arguments in favour of what is happening at Drax
but I can’t
so I won’t
The DRAX biomass plan goes even beyond the depth of stupidity that declares CO2 being the master control knob of climate.
Meanwhile in other news from UK:
“Winter death toll ‘to exceed 40,000’
The cold weather death toll this winter is expected to top 40,000, the highest number for 15 years.
The figures were described as a “tragedy for the elderly” by campaigners who warned that not enough was being done to protect pensioners from unnecessary deaths in cold weather.
Strangely, deaths from cold of those in energy poverty each winter month are running at 5 times the deaths on the road in a year
But the same UK Members of Parliament who voted for the ‘Climate Change Act’ which directly causes many of these deaths, are not concerned, not even enough to raise it in Parliament.
Who cares as long as UK reaches ‘renewable targets’?
Nuclear energy doesn’t kill off Humans fast enough to make the greenies happy, but a hard winter with inadequate energy supplies that freezes a few thousand will put a smile on their face !!
It as climate change, not cold, that is causing these deaths; and we have always been at war with Eastasia. – The Ministry of Truth
How many more people must die of energy poverty before the IPCC can be indicted for crimes against humanity?
“Winter death toll ‘to exceed 40,000’
I have a question about this. I see numbers like this quoted for Britain on a regular basis. I have to ask, how is this even possible?
I spent several decades living on the frigid Canadian prairies which make “cold” in Britain look like the tropics. I’m talking too cold to snow cold, dogs frozen to fire hydrants cold, too cold to skate cold, if the block heater wasn’t plugged in it ain’t gonna start and maybe not even THEN cold. Did we have deaths due to cold? Sure. Every year a few people would get lost in the woods or go off the road into a ditch during a blizzard and freeze to death. A drunk or two would pass out on his front door step and freeze to death. Every year. But we’re talking a few people every year. Not ten’s of thousands.
So what is it about Britain that such a thing is even possible? I’d really appreciate if someone could explain this because it just doesn’t seem like a plausible number.
No fireplaces in the cities !!
Even the CBC admits that cold kills a lot more than a few every year
http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/cold-deemed-deadlier-than-heat-when-it-comes-to-weather-deaths-1.3081053
Excess winter deaths, UK, 1999-2009 averaged around 27,000 with 1999/2000 being an outlier of about 44,000.
Excess winter deaths 2014/2015 was about 43,900.
WUWT did a post on excess winter deaths back in 2010. The third figure on that page gives data for England and Wales back to 1951. The death rate has been declining pretty steadily from the 1951 high of 104,000 excess deaths. Still, if excess deaths hit 40,000 again in 2015/2016, the juxtaposition of two high-mortality years will be unusual. There have been only four of them since 1980.
Maybe we’ll see another unprecedented worse than we thought trend with climate change: a systematic rise in excess Winter deaths due to cold. Such an emergence would be a grim irony indeed.
WUWT did a post on
Yeah, I read it.
Shows Canada at about 6,000 deaths due to cold per year. See my point? Canada pop ~ 35 million, UK’s about 60 million, but UK has 8X the deaths due to cold in a country with an arguably much warmer climate than Canada’s?
Is there some difference between countries in the way the attribution is done? Or does the UK house the elderly in card board boxes? There must be some explanation for why so many more people die of cold in the UK.
the statistic of excess winter deaths is computed by the difference in deaths during non-winter months vs winter months.
attribution of deaths to cold temperatures is not supported.
“Previous research has shown that although mortality does increase as it gets colder, temperature only explains a small amount of the variance in winter mortality, and high levels of EWM can occur during relatively mild winters Brown et al, 2010 (293 Kb Pdf) . Curwen and Devis (1988) showed that both temperature and levels of influenza were important predictors of excess winter mortality. The relationship between temperature, influenza and winter mortality is complex.”
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/resources/figure7_tcm77-425292.png
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/subnational-health2/excess-winter-mortality-in-england-and-wales/2014-15–provisional–and-2013-14–final-/stb-ewm.html#tab-Excess-winter-mortality–EWM–in-2014-15-by-underlying-cause-of-death
and links on the side panel
@ur momisugly gnomish January 8, 2016 at 1:13 am
The deaths due to someone’s bronchitis flaring up because they are cold will show as a ‘respiratory death’ . The statistics should be in Monthly increments by using a wider smoothing you hide the deaths from cold. Cold months have more deaths and they are put down not as cold but as pneumonia (respiratory) or the weakened dementia patient finally dies in a cold month. Anyone who has worked in health care knows this.
The reason it is worse in UK than Canada is that Canadian housing is set up for the cold. UK housing is not but it was possible to keep warm with ‘lossy’ heating systems, such as open coal fires in all rooms. The clean air acts, design changes to gas and electric heating changed that approach but then energy prices ‘necessarily sky rocketed’ to pay for windmills and changes to the grid to accept intermittent energy inputs, and to pay bonuses to the richer middle class who put PVs on their roofs. Taxes were raised on private energy producers penalizing them (just an opportunist tax) for using coal fired – forcing Drax to go to wood or shut down for example. To paying all these green subsidies and taxes made the costs to poorer people difficult – choices of heating or eating. Going low on eating and heating in the cold when you are over 70 can be the last straw to your immune system.
It is not only UK of course – costs of energy in Germany are now so high that hundreds of thousands of families are living ‘off grid’.
This is what the Malthusian’s want they just don’t say it overtly.
Ian W January 8, 2016 at 4:19 am
mikewaite January 8, 2016 at 12:32 am
Thanks gents. The picture is much clearer now.
Ian- i find your assertions to be extremely tenuous.
remember our beloved slogan:
correlation is not causation
“Thus, Cuba joins other tropical areas where major causes of death peak in the winter. For example, Seto et al. (1998) found that in Hawaii, mortality from carotid artery disease was 22% higher in the winter.”
http://www.nipccreport.org/articles/2011/jul/27jul2011a4.html
the ‘winter death alarmist narrative’ is no stronger than the co2 control knob one.
And how much of Alzheimer and dementia are just the effects of unproven and unnecessary treatment routinely given to older people?
How is influenza defined?
The difference, David ,is simple – money. About this time last year one of the Age charities carried out a survey on elderly people and pensioners concerning their heating arrangements . They found out that 2/3 of those polled were very worried about the cost of heating the homes and 1/3 only ever heated one room for that reason .
It is a combination of the cold and flu that kills the elderly in large numbers each winter according to the Govt itself . Many people , especially the poorer members, live in Victoria and Edwardian terrace houses with no effective insulation because way back then (as I remember ) coal was cheap and for many households in mining areas it would actually have been free.
What’s one more hoax compared to the greatest hoax in the history of mankind?
Forrest Gardener January 7, 2016 at 2:27 pm
Have all the BS detectors been turned off to save power?
Best quote I’ve seen in a while.
I bet all the greenies in the USA and Canada must be up in arms about all those trees being cut down. !
Are you having blockades, and demonstrations yet ?
Drax. Wasn’t that the name of one of the villains in a Bond movie?
Star Trek, Voyager
Yep. I still haven’t forgiven Drax for killing Corinne Dufour.
LOL
Reminds of the bad deal we have in Austin. Our greener-than-thou city council inked a guaranteed contract for $2.3B for a wood chip plant that was built but too costly to turn on. Fools and tax money are soon parted. http://www.texaswatchdog.org/2013/02/austin-energy-customers-foot-bill-for-biomass-plant-east-texas/1360884396.story
Lot of those trees are coming from NC. 🙁