The Secret Life of Half-Life

Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach [see update at the end of the head post]

I first got introduced to the idea of “half-life” in the 1950s because the topic of the day was nuclear fallout. We practiced hiding under our school desks if the bomb went off, and talked about how long you’d have to stay underground to be safe, and somehow in all of that we never pondered exactly how a cheap sheet metal and plywood desk would ward off an atomic bomb … a simpler time indeed. But I digress. Half-life, as many people know, is how long it takes for a given starting amount of some radioactive substance to decay until only half of the starting amount remains. For example, the half-life of radioactive caesium 137 is about thirty years. This means if you start with a gram of radioactive caesium, in thirty years you’ll only have half a gram. And in thirty more years you’ll have a quarter of a gram. And in thirty years there will only be an eighth of a gram of caesium remaining, and on ad infinitum.

This is a physical example of a common type of natural decay called “exponential decay”. The hallmark of exponential decay is that every time period, the decay is a certain percentage of what remains at that time. Exponential decay also describes what happens when a system which is at some kind of equilibrium is disturbed from that equilibrium. The system doesn’t return to equilibrium all at once. Instead, each year it moves a certain percentage of the remaining distance to equilibrium. Figure 1 shows the exponential decay after a single disturbance at time zero, as the disturbance is slowly decaying back to the pre-pulse value.

example exponential decay single pulseFigure 1. An example of a hypothetical exponential decay of a system at equilibrium from a single pulse of amplitude 1 at time zero. Each year it moves a certain percentage of the distance to the equilibrium value. The “half-life” and the time constant “tau” are two different ways of measuring the same thing, which is the decay rate. Half-life is the time to decay to half the original value. The time constant “tau” is the time to decay to 37% of the original value. Tau is also known as the “e-folding time”.

Note that the driving impulse in Figure 1 is a single unit pulse, and in response we see a steady decay back to equilibrium. That is to say, the shape of the driving impulse is very different from the shape of the response.

Let’s consider a slightly more complex case. This is where we have an additional pulse of 1.0 units each succeeding year. That case is shown in Figure 2.

example exponential decay constant pulsesFigure 2. An example of a hypothetical exponential decay from constant annual pulses of amplitude 1. The pulses start at time zero and continue indefinitely. 

Now, this is interesting. In the beginning, the exponential decay is not all that large, because the disturbance isn’t that large. But when we add an additional identical pulse each year, the disturbance grows.

But when the disturbance grows, the size of the annual decay grows as well. As a result, eventually the disturbance levels off. After a while, although we’re adding a one unit pulse per year, the loss due to exponential decay one pulse per year, so there is no further increase.

The impulse in Figure 2 is a steady addition of 1 unit per year. So once again, the shape of the response is very different from the shape of the exponentially decayed response.

With that as prologue, we can look at the relationship between fossil fuel emissions and the resulting increase in airborne CO2. It is generally accepted that the injection of a pulse of e.g volcanic gases into the planetary atmosphere is followed by an exponential decay of the temporarily increased volcanic gas levels back to some pre-existing equilibrium. We know that this exponential decay of an injected gas pulse is a real phenomenon, because if that decay didn’t happen, we’d all be choked to death from accumulated volcanic gases.

Knowing this, we can use an exponential decay analysis of the fossil fuel emissions data to estimate the CO2 levels that would result from those same emissions. Figure 3 shows theoretical and observed increases in various CO2 levels.

increase airborne sequestered co2 1959Figure 3. Theoretical and observed CO2 changes, in parts per million by volume (ppmv). The theoretical total CO2 from emissions (blue line) is what we’d have if there were no exponential decay and all emissions remained airborne. The red line is the observed change in airborne CO2. The amount that is sequestered by various CO2 sinks (violet) is calculated as the total amount put into the air (blue line) minus the observed amount remaining in the air (red line). The black line is the expected change in airborne CO2, calculated as the exponential decay of the total CO2 injected into the atmosphere. The calculation used best-fit values of 59 years as the time constant (tau) and 283 ppmv as the pre-industrial equilibrium level. 

The first thing to notice is that the total amount of CO2 from fossil fuel emissions is much larger than the amount that remains in the atmosphere. The clear inference of this is that various natural sequestration processes have absorbed some but not all of the fossil fuel emissions. Also, the percentage of emissions that are naturally sequestered has remained constant since 1959. About 42% of the amount that is emitted is “sequestered”, that is to say removed from the atmosphere by natural carbon sinks.

Next, as you can see, using an exponential decay analysis gives us an extremely good fit between the theoretical and the observed increase in atmospheric CO2. In fact, the fit is so good that most of the time you can’t even see the red line (observed CO2) under the black line (calculated CO2).

Before I move on, please note that the amount remaining in the atmosphere is not a function of the annual emissions. Instead, it is a function of the total emissions, i.e. it is a function of the running sum of the annual emissions starting at t=0 (blue line).

Now, I got into all of this because against my better judgment I started to watch Dr. Salby’s video that was discussed on WUWT here. The very first argument that Dr. Salby makes involves the following two graphs:

Salby fossil fuel emissionFigure 4. Dr. Salby’s first figure, showing the annual global emissions of carbon in gigatonnes per year.

Salby CO2 observedFigure 5. Dr. Salby’s second figure, showing the observed level of CO2 at Mauna Loa.

Note that according to his numbers the trend in emissions increased after 2002, but the CO2 trend is identical before and after 2002. Dr. Salby thinks this difference is very important.

At approximate 4 minutes into the video Dr. Salby comments on this difference with heavy sarcasm, saying:

The growth of fossil fuel emission increased by a factor of 300% … the growth of CO2 didn’t blink. How could this be? Say it ain’t so!

OK, I’ll step up to the plate and say it. It ain’t so, at least it’s not the way Dr. Salby thinks it is, for a few reasons.

First, note that he is comparing the wrong things. Observed CO2 is NOT a function of annual CO2 emissions. It is a function of total emissions, as discussed above and shown in Figure 3. The total amount remaining in the atmosphere at any time is a function of the total amount emitted up to that time. It is NOT a function of the individual annual emissions. So we would not expect the two graphs to have the same shape or the same trends.

Next, we can verify that he is looking at the wrong things by comparing the units used in the two graphics. Consider Figure 4, which has units of gigatonnes of carbon per year. Gigatonnes of carbon (GtC) emitted, and changes in airborne CO2 (parts per million by volume, “ppmv”), are related by the conversion factor of:

2.13 Gigatonnes carbon emitted = 1 ppmv CO2

This means that the units in Figure 4 can be converted from gigatonnes C per year to ppmv per year by simply dividing them by 2.13. So Figure 4 shows ppmv per year. But the units in Figure 5 are NOT the ppmv per year used in Figure 4. Instead, Figure 5 uses simple ppmv. Dr. Salby is not comparing like with like. He’s comparing ppmv of CO2 per year to plain old ppmv of CO2, and that is a meaningless comparison.

He is looking at apples and oranges, and he waxes sarcastic about how other scientists haven’t paid attention to the fact that the two fruits are different … they are different because there is no reason to expect that apples and oranges would be the same. In fact, as Figure 3 shows, the observed CO2 has tracked the total human emissions very, very accurately. In particular, it shows that we do not expect a large trend change in observed CO2 around the year 2000 such as Dr. Salby expects, despite the fact that such a trend change exists in the annual emission data. Instead, the change is reflected in a gradual increase in the trend of the observed (and calculated) CO2 … and the observations are extremely well matched by the calculated values.

The final thing that’s wrong with his charts is that he’s looking at different time periods in his trend comparisons. For the emissions, he’s calculated the trends 1990-2002, and compared that to 2002-2013. But regarding the CO2 levels, he’s calculated the trends over entirely different periods, 1995-2002 and 2002-2014. Bad scientist, no cookies. You can’t pick two different periods to compare like that.

In summary? Well, the summary is short … Dr. Salby appears to not understand the relationship between fossil fuel carbon emissions and CO2.

That would be bad enough, but from there it just gets worse. Starting at about 31 minutes into the video Dr. Salby makes much of the fact that the 14C (“carbon-14”) isotope produced by the atomic bomb tests decayed exponentially (agreeing with what I discussed above) with a fairly short time constant tau of about nine years or so.

Salby 14c decayFigure 6. Dr. Salby demonstrates that airborne residence time constant tau for CO2 is around 8.6 years. “NTBT” is the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty.

Regarding this graph, Dr. Salby says that it is a result of exponential decay. He goes on to say that “Exponential decay means that the decay of CO2 is proportional to the abundance of CO2,” and I can only agree.

So far so good … but then Dr. Salby does something astounding. He graphs the 14C airborne residence time data up on the same graph as the “Bern Model” of CO2 pulse decay, says that they both show “Absorption of CO2”, and claims that the 14C isotope data definitively shows that the Bern model is wrong …

salby bern model vs 14CFigure 7. Dr. Salby’s figure showing both the “Bern Model” of the decay of a pulse of CO2 (violet line), along the same data shown in Figure 6 for the airborne residence time of CO2 (blue line, green data points).

To reiterate, Dr. Salby says that the 14C bomb test (blue line identified as “Real World”) clearly shows that the Bern Model is wrong (violet line identified as “Model World”).

But as before, in Figure 8 Dr. Salby is again comparing apples and oranges. The 14C bomb test data (blue line) shows how long an individual CO2 molecule stays in the air. Note that this is a steady-state process, with individual CO2 molecules constantly being emitted from somewhere, staying airborne in the atmosphere with a time constant tau of around 8 years, and then being re-absorbed somewhere else in the carbon cycle. This is called the “airborne residence time” of CO2. It is the time an average CO2 molecule stays aloft before being re-absorbed.

But the airborne residence time (blue line) is very, very different from what the Bern Model (violet line) is estimating. The Bern Model is estimating how long it takes an entire pulse of additional CO2 to decay back to equilibrium concentration levels. This is NOT how long a CO2 molecule stays aloft. Instead, the Bern Model is estimating how long the increased atmospheric concentration from a pulse of injected CO2 takes to decay back to pre-pulse conditions. Let me summarize:

Airborne residence time (bomb test data): how long an individual CO2 molecule stays in the air.

Pulse decay time (Bern Model):  how long the increased atmospheric concentration from a pulse of injected CO2 takes to decay back to pre-pulse conditions.

So again Dr. Salby is conflating two very different measurements—airborne residence time on the one hand (blue line), and CO2 post-pulse concentration decay time on the other hand (violet line). It is meaningless to display them on the same graph. The 14C bomb test data neither supports nor falsifies the Bern Model. The 14C data says nothing about the Bern Model, because they are measuring entirely different things.

I was going to force myself to watch more of the video of his talk. But when I got that far into Dr. Salby’s video, I simply couldn’t continue. His opening move is to compare ppmv per year to plain ppmv, and get all snarky about how he’s the only one noticing that they are different. He follows that up by not knowing the difference between airborne residence time and pulse decay time.

Sorry, but after all of that good fun I’m not much interested in his other claims. Sadly, Dr. Salby has proven to me that regarding this particular subject he doesn’t understand what he’s talking about. I do know he wrote a text on Atmospheric Physics, so he’s nobody’s fool … but in this case he’s way over his head.

Best regards to each of you on this fine spring evening,

w.

For Clarity: If you disagree with something, please quote the exact words you disagree with. That will allow everyone to understand the exact nature of your disagreement.

Math Note: The theoretical total CO2 from emissions is calculated using the relationship 1 ppmv = 2.13 gigatonnes of carbon emitted.

Also, we only have observational data on CO2 concentrations since 1959. This means that the time constant calculated in Figure 3 is by no means definitive. It also means that the data is too short to reliably distinguish between e.g. the Bern Model (a fat-tailed exponential decay) and the simple single exponential decay model I used in Figure 3.

Data and Code: I’ve put the R code and functions, the NOAA Monthly CO2 data (.CSV), and the annual fossil fuel carbon emissions data (.TXT) in a small zipped folder entitled “Salby Analysis Folder” (20 kb)

[Update]: Some commenters have said that I should have looked at an alternate measure. They said instead of looking at atmospheric CO2 versus the cumulative sum of annual emissions, I should show annual change in atmospheric CO2 versus annual emissions. We are nothing if not a full service website, so here is that Figure.

scatterplot emissions vs delta atmospheric co2

As you can see, this shows that it is a noisy system. Despite that, however, there is reasonably good and strongly statistically significant correlation between emissions and the change in atmospheric CO2. I note also that this method gives about the same numbers for the airborne fraction that I got from my analysis upthread.

w.

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Phlogiston
April 20, 2015 4:49 pm

On the subject of atmospheric CO2 increase, this article is about greening of an arid part of north Ethiopia. While it is attributed to laudable land modification efforts, one suspects a helping hand from the EPA’s favourite pollutant gas:
http://m.bbc.com/news/magazine-32348749

David L. Hagen
April 20, 2015 6:37 pm

Willis
Please see my post above following Ferdinand’s comment, which I meant to put here to both of you.

David L. Hagen
April 20, 2015 6:45 pm

Willis and Ferdinand. For the Bern model, see the UNFCCC post:
CO2 Impulse Response Function of Bern SAR and Bern TAR models
18 March 02, F. Joos, University of Bern, 3012 Bern, joos@climate.unibe.ch
under
Parameters for tuning a simple carbon cycle model
The major difference from the bomb test results and the Bern model appears to be some very long duration exponentials, not the short term ones. e.g. Note the Tau of 407 years. How was that obtained? Contrast Salby’s finding natural CO2 emissions varying as temperature.

KevinK
April 20, 2015 6:57 pm

Willis wrote;
“Observed CO2 is NOT a function of annual CO2 emissions. It is a function of total emissions, as discussed above and shown in Figure 3. The total amount remaining in the atmosphere at any time is a function of the total amount emitted up to that time. It is NOT a function of the individual annual emissions.”
Regarding the first part; “Observed CO2 is NOT a function of annual CO2 emissions. It is a function of total emissions,”
Total emissions is the integral of annual emissions, last I checked performing an integral classifies as a “function of”. And performing the integral function effectively removes the (1/dT) portion of the units which makes the apple equal to the orange. The slope of the integrand output (i.e. the derivative) is the annual emission, the bit that is added during each time interval to determine the current total.
Regarding the second part; “The total amount remaining in the atmosphere at any time is a function of the total amount emitted up to that time.”
As Willis points out the “total amount remaining” is a continuous integral function with some CO2 entering and some leaving with postulated “half lifes” which may or may not mean anything.
Dr. Salby’s main point is that the CO2 integral function is rising much faster (~2ppmv/yr) than the human component is rising (~0.14ppmv/yr), sounds like a sound observation to me. (looks like the graphics have units of 1/yr^2, not sure what a square year looks like exactly ??)
Quoting Dr. Salby; “The growth of fossil fuel emission increased by a factor of 300% … the growth of CO2 didn’t blink. How could this be? Say it ain’t so!”
OK, I’ll be among those to say “It ain’t so”.
If one input to the integrated total changes by 300% and the derivative (slope) of the integrand does not change then that input to the integrand is miniscule.
Or, the sequestration processes have taken EXACTLY the opposite direction and matched the changes from mankind, in which case we are in happy times, Mother Earth knows how to exactly use up all the “extra” CO2 we evil humans can make. No need for any corrective action at this point is there ???
Of course, when hunting unicorn’s predictions of great massive herds approaching ready to plunder and pillage makes for good headlines. Look out, “THERE BE CO2” and it will cause a catastrophe, or at least some inconvenience, or at the very least the temperature might go up by a thousandth of a degree before all you young folks die….
Or, worst of all, your tastes in music might change WHILE you start seeing larger spiders, holy guacamole Batman, whatever shall we do ???
TRUST US, WE ARE SCIENTISTS….
Cheers, KevinK.

Reply to  KevinK
April 21, 2015 12:31 am

Kevin,
Dr. Salby looks at the second (!) derivative of the CO2 rate of change to show that the IPCC has a problem. I think that looking at the second derivative in a very noisy system has not the slightest interest, as that doesn’t say anything about the cause of the increase in the atmosphere.
Moreover, depending of the chosen period, the second derivative goes up, flat or down (the latter in the period 1976-1996).
Over the whole period, the average rate of change in the atmosphere is 53% (at Mauna Loa), thus humans are emitting twice what is seen as increase in the atmosphere. The year by year variability for yearly averages is less than +/- 1 ppmv around a trend of ~2 ppmv/year and human emissions of ~4.5 ppmv/year. The variability fades within 1-3 years and integrates to zero around the trend. It is proven that the variability is caused by the influence of temperature variations on (tropical) forests, but also proven that vegetation is a net, increasing sink for CO2 over the past 1.5 decade. Trend and variability have different causes…
The futility of the variability around the trend is clear if you plot the long term influence of temperature on CO2 levels (~8 ppmv/°C) vs. the measured increase…

Evan Jones
Editor
April 20, 2015 9:11 pm

and somehow in all of that we never pondered exactly how a cheap sheet metal and plywood desk would ward off an atomic bomb
Well, here is some Pondering the Imponderable on that.
The bombs were inconceivably more powerful. Their targeting was quite primitive and unreliable by today’s standards (high near and not-so-near miss possibility).
Now, if you are hit “directly” by the bomb, then nothing will avail. But there is a much larger amount of area that suffers not total destruction, but moderate to minor damage. Anyone on the outer reaches of the blast damage radius might very well be sufficiently or at least partially protected by any sort of cover at all. That desktop might have saved your life.
Not picking on you, Willis. If there is one thing in the world more misunderstood than climate it is nuclear war. 97%+ don’t know beans about it. (I am an old hand at this. I wrote the introduction to the new edition of On Thermonuclear War. link: https://books.google.com/books?id=EN2gtPTjFd8C&pg=PR1&lpg=PR1&dq=on+thermonuclear+war+evan+jones&source=bl&ots=ZMVes2
(page xi.)

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 21, 2015 7:05 am

If you’ll forgive my butting in, I’ll mention that this issue was the subject of a post in which I made the same point as Mr. Eschenbach but then discussed some factors that muddy the waters. The resultant thread wandered off into the weeds, I’m afraid, but I think the best explanations of those factors’ effects came in Mr. Engelbeen’s comments, of which perhaps my favorite was the one in which he provided a block diagram of sources and sinks.

Coldlynx
April 21, 2015 5:39 am

You write: “the Bern Model is estimating how long the increased atmospheric concentration from a pulse of injected CO2 takes to decay back to pre-pulse conditions.”
When in fact the Bern Model is estimating how long the increased atmospheric concentration from a pulse of injected CO2 takes to decay back to pre-pulse conditions, with a estimated climate sensitivities of 2.1 and 4.6 K for doubling of CO2. Yes the introduce a CO2/T feedback.
The model is temperature sensitive especially for ocean CO2 balance.
“The Bern Model has been designed to study the relationship between anthropogenic carbon emissions and atmospheric CO2 levels as well as the transient response of the surface temperature signal to a perturbation in the radiative balance of the Earth. ”
“The ratio of the climate sensitivities over land and ocean is chosen in order to obtain a 30 percent warmer equilibrium response over land than over the sea. As a standard, the global climate sensitivity is set to 2.5 K for an increase in radiative forcing corresponding to a doubling of preindustrial atmospheric CO2 (Delta-T(2xCO2)=2.5 K”
http://www.climate.unibe.ch/~joos/model_description/model_description.html.
Bern model anticipate a temperature increase that increase CO2 level in atmosphere. And then they anticipate that increased CO2 change temperature. Of course will the result from the model be a higher temperature and CO2 levels.
Only a example of CO2/T feedback in models.

Coldlynx
April 21, 2015 6:22 am

Joos documents to download http://www.climate.unibe.ch/~joos/publications.html#publications_1996
From 2003 paper “The anthropogenic perturbation of atmospheric CO2 and the climate system”,
“Sea surface warming is by far the most dominant feedback with respect to CO2 uptake in our model,”
Simple CO2 radiative forcing feedback in models .

Reply to  Coldlynx
April 21, 2015 11:23 am

Coldlynx,
Thanks for the reference, it is even worse than I thought… I had the impression that I was mainly saturation of the (deep) oceans that was in play, but if they even included temperature feedbacks…

Reply to  Coldlynx
April 22, 2015 5:16 am

Coldlynx,
Found a discussion already from 2001 about the Bern model on the late John Daly’s website, including a reaction from Dr. Furtunate Joos himself:
http://www.john-daly.com/dietze/cmodcalc.htm

William Astley
April 21, 2015 7:25 am

In reply to:

Ferdinand Engelbeen April 21, 2015 at 12:31 am
Dr. Salby looks at the second (!) derivative of the CO2 rate of change to show that the IPCC has a problem. I think that looking at the second derivative in a very noisy system has not the slightest interest, as that doesn’t say anything about the cause of the increase in the atmosphere.
Moreover, depending of the chosen period, the second derivative goes up, flat or down (the latter in the period 1976-1996).

William,
The second derivative is of course ‘relevant’ as it provides an indication of the direction of future changes and is required to prove or disprove the assertion that anthropogenic CO2 is the major reason for the recent rise in atmospheric CO2. Salby has found two simple independent analyses to determine what portion of the recent rise in atmospheric CO2 is due to anthropogenic CO2 and found them both to support the assertion that no more than 33% of the recent rise in atmospheric CO2 is due to the anthropogenic CO2 emissions, the remaining 67% is due to natural CO2 sources.
What is the mysterious ‘noise’ that makes it derivative analysis ‘irrelevant’? The planet is not getting warmer or colder. A running average will filter out the year by year temperature changes. Anthropogenic CO2 is increasing steadily. The sinks of CO2 out of the atmosphere are not noisy.
Salby’s analysis is based on the fact that the total sources of CO2 into the atmosphere minus the total sinks of CO2 from the atmosphere must equal the change in CO2 in the atmosphere.
Salby calculated the maximum possible sink of CO2 out of the atmosphere and then used that information and the known anthropogenic emissions of CO2 to calculate 33% as the maximum contribution of anthropogenic CO2 to the recent rise in atmospheric CO2. The remaining 67% is due to natural CO2 emissions which are due to deep earth release of CH4. Micro organism consume a portion of the CH4 and produce CO2 as waste product.
As I noted, CH4 levels in the atmosphere doubled, abruptly increased around 2002 and then stopped increasing. (Salby noted that fact in his lecture. Did you miss that part? Oh I forgot you only watch the first 10 minutes of Salby’s presentation as I can tell from your comments in this forum.) There is no biological explanation or man made explanation for a step increase in CH4.
As new and old CH4 is rapidly removed from the atmosphere (it is lighter than the major components of the atmosphere N2 and O2 it hence floats up to the stratosphere where it broken down by radiation to form CO2 and H2O, with a half life of around 2.5 years). There must hence be a steady discharge of CH4 into the atmosphere to maintain a level that is twice what it was before.
The mechanism that caused the increase of CH4 and natural new CO2 is starting to abate. (The source of Low C13 CO2, is derived from low C13 CH4. CH4 ‘natural gas’ is primarily low C13 however it varies greatly with the variance being caused by length of the path time from the deep core to the lower regions of the crust. You really need to read Thomas Gold’s book The Deep Hot Biosphere: The Myth of Fossil Fuels. and the related papers concerning the abiotic theory as they are fundamental to understand this subject.)
The rise in atmospheric CO2 is now slowing and will in the next few years become negative. I am truly curious how the cult of CAGW will respond to falling CO2 levels, falling ocean levels, and a cooling planet.

Reply to  William Astley
April 21, 2015 7:55 am

Exactly. I expect at the very least CO2 concentrations will be leveling off because it has been and will continue to be a result of natural processes.
The case the opposition has been trying to make is baseless as is always the case with AGW.

philincalifornia
Reply to  William Astley
April 21, 2015 8:26 am

I am truly curious how the cult of CAGW will respond to falling CO2 levels, falling ocean levels, and a cooling planet.
They will run around saying that they saved the planet, and give themselves lots of awards (and more money).

April 21, 2015 8:13 am

Since we are discussing all this, what happens to co2 hanging around for the next several hundred years that the ministers of doom have so brazenly predicted? They’ve made predictions on their own beliefs and regurgitated data from questionable sources that defy basic scientific inquiry. Misleading many people and political decision makers as a statement of fact. The simple and basic fact is that since the Industrial revolution none of the numbers are negative. Mutual exclusivity between the release of co2 and the planet’s ability to sink co2 and/or carbon is apparent in the numbers regardless of half life. Long term, short term or in the last 10 years. Or between any 11 year cycle. Most apparent between 1987 and 1998. The composite numbers between man made, natural carbon cycle, and/or carbon from earth sources not related (or in addition to) these two has not been factored. Nor has the chemistry of breaking down co2 back into its elemental parts by any other means been described or thought of. A mere 5% breakdown separate from the organic carbon cycle would leave the earth depleted of co2 in 20 years without an additional input of co2. Even at 1% whatever is being released today won’t be around 100 years from now.
Let me put the 5 % in perspective for you. Imagine the amount of co2 man is producing today, now double it to keep the same amount . Even at 1 % the loss on 400 ppmv is 4 molecules/year. We are contributing about 2 -3?

April 21, 2015 10:40 am

http://www.drroyspencer.com/2014/08/how-much-of-atmospheric-co2-increase-is-natural/
I think this gives a very neutral balanced approach to this issue. The conclusion is we do not really know.

Reply to  Salvatore Del Prete
April 21, 2015 3:29 pm

Salvatore, always look at the comments, these are often more instructive than the article…

April 21, 2015 11:18 am

William,
Dr. Salby provided no proof whatsoever that the increase in the atmosphere isn’t mostly caused by human emissions. His estimate is based on the decay rate of 14C, which is much shorter than for any injection of fossil fuel CO2.
Looking at the second derivative may have merit if the whole change in the derivative(s) is regular. In this case, the first derivative is highly variable, as we as annual as over decennia. The first derivative is all over the scale, but still is within borders of ~1 ppmv around the trend in the first derivative. Nevertheless, looking at the second derivative in this case says nothing about the future evolution or the cause of the increase in the atmosphere. Neither does the rate of change itself: different processes at work for the variability and the offset and slope. The latter two give the increase in the atmosphere, where human emissions have twice the offset and slope of the increase in the atmosphere…
Dr. Salby also used some tricks to convince the audience that natural variability was the cause of the increase: he used the full rate of change, thus including the offset to back calculate the increase in the atmosphere, thus including the part caused by the human emissions…
Thus sorry, whatever natural methane, biogenic or not, may have caused, it is not responsible for the recent increase in the atmosphere (and the drop in 13C/12C ratio should have been much faster)…

April 21, 2015 1:06 pm

At the 26.23 minute mark in the video of his March 2015 London talk, Salby discusses the next analysis in his talk,

{bold emphasis mine – JW}
“There is a third way to determine alpha [absorption time of CO2]. Ideally we’d like to perform a controlled experiment; to measure absorption; to remove all sources and watch what happens. But this system [the earth atmospheric system] we don’t control. It controls us. If we can’t remove the sources we must account for them. To do that we must follow CO2 in the atmosphere. We need a tracer in the atmosphere.

He uses the observations of C14 created from nuclear bomb testing as that tracer in his analysis of absorption time.
At the end of his C14 tracer absorption analysis Salby says at the 31:13 minute mark,

comment image
“For reference in [the color] mauve is the absorption time of CO2 in the world of models, which relies upon the so-called Bern model of CO2.
Notice the time range. It’s not 20 years, it’s 200 years. Even then almost 30% of the CO2 present initially remains in the model world. For comparison, here [the blue and green curves of C14 and observed CO2 respectively] is the observed absorption in the real world.”

[My attention goes to the coincidence that the period of the nuclear bomb testing (late 1950s to early 1960s) is also a period where global industrialization was in relatively rapidly increasing growth mode which means relatively rapidly increasing emissions rates compared to all times earlier in the century.] So, there was in effect a ‘pulse’ of anthropogenic CO2 during the nuclear testing period of interest. In that regard, it seems to be the case that the Bern model scenario curve shown also assumes the effects of a ‘pulse’ of anthropogenic CO2.
John

Reply to  John Whitman
April 21, 2015 1:21 pm

This is an edit to my post above John Whitman on April 21, 2015 at 1:06 pm .
Remove this original sentence in my last paragraph,
“My attention goes to the coincidence that the period of the nuclear bomb testing (late 1950s to early 1960s) is also a period where global industrialization was in relatively rapidly increasing growth mode which means relatively rapidly increasing observed CO2 compared to all times earlier in the century.”
Replace it with this new sentence,
“My attention goes to the coincidence that the period of the nuclear bomb testing (late 1950s to early 1960s) is also a period where global industrialization was in relatively rapidly increasing growth mode which means relatively rapidly increasing emissions rates compared to all times earlier in the century.”
Thanks.
John

Reply to  John Whitman
April 21, 2015 3:10 pm

John,
As said before, 14C is not a good tracer for an extra shot of CO2 in the atmosphere, its decay rate is much faster than for 12/13CO2. See the difference between 14C residence time and the decay rate of an extra shot “normal” CO2 as told by Willis.

Reply to  John Whitman
April 21, 2015 3:57 pm

Ferdinand Engelbeen on April 21, 2015 at 3:10 pm
– – – – – – – – –
Ferdinand Engelbeen,
It is the CO2 tracer that we got, and we can view it critically. But can someone show me a better actual measured CO2 tracer for residency time/ absorption time during the industrial period.
John

Reply to  John Whitman
April 21, 2015 4:57 pm

Ferdinand Engelbeen on April 21, 2015 at 3:10 pm
– – – – – –
Ferdinand Engelbeen,
As to your comment reference to a Willis comment, lets start from simple beginning.
Let us look at geologic timescale up to the year ~1850. How did atmospheric CO2 levels (determined by various proxies) change significantly sometime for extended geologic periods? We know that they did.
The geologic timescale’s (up to the year ~1850) significant changes in atmospheric CO2 levels sometimes remained a fairly constant levels for extended periods of decades or centuries (or longer) then changed significantly to other levels. Also there were periods where there were significant fluctuations. How did that happen?
It happened by significant short-term and sometimes long-term changes in magnitudes of CO2 sinks and sources.
That all happened without an anthropogenic source of atmospheric CO2.
I think the above in not disputed by anyone in the climate change discourse.
With the advent of industrialization, an anthropogenic source of atmospheric CO2 was started circa ~1850 (or a little later in the 19th century).
Question #1: What part of the change in atmosphere CO2 since the year ~1850 is due to adding the anthropogenic source into the mix of all the other sources and sinks?
I offer an alternate indirect question I suggest might help answer Question #1: Did the sequestration of atmospheric CO2 into the deposits of all fossil fuels in early geologic times cause significant and permanently reduced levels of atmospheric CO2 while the fossil fuel deposits remained in the earth? If they did so, then we might expect reintroducing that ancient sequestered CO2 by humans might permanently increase atmospheric CO2.
Let’s discuss the alt Q a little bit. I hope some geologists will contribute.
John

Reply to  John Whitman
April 22, 2015 4:51 am

John,
– The historical ratio between temperature and CO2 levels over the past 800,000 years was around 8 ppmv/°C. That includes changes in ice/vegetation area and deep ocean exchanges with the atmosphere.
That holds for the huge changes in temperature between glacial and interglacial periods.
It also holds for shorter periods like the warm(er) MWP and the colder LIA: a drop of 6 ppmv for a drop of ~0.8°C, again around 8 ppmv/°C.
As we may assume that the MWP was at least as warm as today, the increase in temperature since the LIA thus is good for not more than 6 ppmv CO2 increase. That is all.
There were warmer and cooler periods during the Holocene, but these were good for maximum +/- 10 ppmv over the whole past 10,000 years:
http://www.ferdinand-engelbeen.be/klimaat/klim_img/antarctic_cores_010kyr.jpg
The increase since ~1850 is over 100 ppmv. That is not caused by natural variability, including the temperature increase since then.
Answer #1: 104 ppmv by human emissions, 6 ppmv from the warming.
Answer #2: Most of the ultra high levels in the far past were disposed in inorganic carbonate rocks like the white cliffs of Dover (UK) and many other places where once the sea bottom was. Some was disposed in organic deposits like coal, which we are using today.
Thus indeed, increasing our fossil fuel use is responsible for the current increase in the atmosphere. That doesn’t remain indefinitely in the atmosphere: about half of what we emit sinks in the oceans and vegetation. That does take time, but its half life time is about 40 years, not eternity. Of course, if completely mixed with the enormous amounts in the deep oceans, there will be a residual increase in the atmosphere and deep oceans of around 1% or about 3 ppmv extra in the atmosphere, if we stop all emissions today.
If we burn near all oil and a lot of coal (~3000 GtC), the residual CO2 will be around 10% or ~33 ppmv, as further reduction is again in carbonate shells and that needs much more time… That is what the residuals of the Bern model is based on, but that is not relevant for the current situation…

April 21, 2015 1:46 pm

I’m a skeptic, as most of you are, about the whole global warming fiasco, but I thought that I might make the following calculation that seems (if relevant) to show that most if not all the carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is human caused. Forgive me if some of you have already done this.
For a concentration n, e-folding rate (1/time constant) α (1/years), rate of concentration input β (ppm/yr2), and with time t the differential equation for the concentration, assuming a linearly increasing input with time as shown by Fig. 4, is
dn/dt+α∙n=β∙t
This is readily soluble by finding an integrating factor (e^αt). We get for an initial concentration n_0
n=β/α^2 [α∙t-(1-e^(-αt) )]+n_(0 ) e^(-αt)
The initial concentration term dies off with time and, for long times, the concentration is
n=β/α t
Getting some numbers from the text, α=0.1/yr and from Fig. 4, β=0.14 ppm/yr2 the asymptotic result is n/t=1.4 ppm/yr, about 2/3 the observed rate of carbon dioxide increase given in Fig. 5, possibly close enough, given the roughness of the numbers, to attribute most of the increased gas to anthropocentric cause.
If the right-hand side is just β, i.e., a constant input rate, then the solution is simply β⁄α^2 ∙(1-e^(-αt) ) limiting as shown in Fig. 2

Gloria Swansong
Reply to  Blueday
April 21, 2015 5:04 pm

Most of the CO2 in the atmosphere is natural, to be precise, more than 285/400 of it, since some of the increase is natural as well. Perhaps you mean that most of the increase since AD 1850 or 1750 is man-made, which IMO is probably the case. Maybe 100 ppm out of the 115 ppm gain.

Reply to  Gloria Swansong
April 21, 2015 5:53 pm

I have calculated that the relative anthropogenic long-term contribution presently ranges between 9,6 to 12.3 %, 95% of the time. Click on my name for details.

Reply to  Gloria Swansong
April 21, 2015 7:09 pm

Yes, I was not clear about that. Thanks for the reply. Without human addition, as you note, you might expect a constant level of CO2 at ~285 ppm due to replacement (thank goodness) of gas (that has been absorbed with time constant about 10 years) by nature. Noting that the concentration is increasing, I tried to calculate the rate of increase by putting in the human rate of input to compare with Fig. 5. My differential equation (that has no assumptions of absorption details) must be correct iff the rate of input is linear with time and the lifetime is constant at 10 years. Fig. 4 shows that the input rate is linear only since 2002 and that is the figure I used. More likely the input rate fits a polynomial, since say 1950, a soluble case if we were to fit Fig. 4 with a quadratic and cubic and …. function and if I can find such a fit, I’ll upgrade the calculation.
But you are right, I should have included a natural rate in the right hand side of my differential equation as a constant. This would just add the 285 figure you indicate to the concentration. But this doesn’t affect the increase rate, the point of the calculation. Nonetheless, the result indicates that the human input yields an increase rate similar if not equal to the observed rate increase.

Roderic Fabian
April 21, 2015 2:41 pm

Thanks to Willis for the explanation of the difference between decay of a tracer of CO2 and decay of a bolus of CO2. It seems to me, though, that the Bern model only holds up if we assume that all of the increase in CO2 is coming from anthropogenic emission. If there is an imbalance of natural emission and absorption then residence time of a bolus might be a lot shorter. Also, the lack of correlation of net CO2 emission and anthropogenic emission tends to support the idea that natural emission and absorption plays a role in the increase of atmospheric CO2. The idea that natural emission and absorption are so finely balanced that the relatively small amount of CO2 due to human activities was the whole cause of the increase in atmospheric CO2 is hard to swallow. Most other things in the climate have more variability.

Reply to  Roderic Fabian
April 21, 2015 3:02 pm

Roderic,
Indeed it is very surprising that the natural variability of the carbon cycle is that small: only 5 ppmv/°C over the seasons and 4-5 ppmv/°C over 2-3 year variability.
That means that the imbalance of the in total ~150 GtC going in and out is less than 10% of the fluxes, while many of the underlying natural changes are in the order of +/- 30% and even +/- 50%.
In my opinion, it may be caused by the fact that oceans and vegetation react opposite to temperature changes. And the fact that the rapid sinks (ocean surface) are already saturated at 10% of the change in the atmosphere (the Revelle/buffer factor). The next sink factor (in speed), the deep oceans, have a much larger capacity, but the bottleneck is the relative small exchange rate with the atmosphere…

April 21, 2015 4:37 pm

http://notrickszone.com/2013/03/02/most-of-the-rise-in-co2-likely-comes-from-natural-sources/#sthash.ETVDjQYF.dpbs
Another study that supports natural variability. The different opinions are going to continue until more data comes in.

Reply to  Salvatore Del Prete
April 21, 2015 5:02 pm

I have done a more detailed analysis using much more of the available CO2 data. I have esimated the relative contributions with statistical confidence limits. Click on my name and critique my work.

Reply to  Salvatore Del Prete
April 22, 2015 4:22 am

Salvatore,
That is not “another” study, it is Salby again…

April 21, 2015 6:32 pm

somehow in all of that we never pondered exactly how a cheap sheet metal and plywood desk would ward off an atomic bomb
1. many initial injuries were caused by the flash and the pulse of beta radiation, which a desk would protect marvelously against
2. many more were caused by the pulse of high-energy electrons — beta radiation — which followed shortly after the flash
3. hiding under a desk gave at least some protection against projectiles frivern by the blast, like glass from the classroom windows.

Reply to  Charlie Martin
April 21, 2015 7:29 pm

It is interesting to note that most individuals who were protected from thermal and blast effects fairly near the detonation, but received large gamma doses and immediately left the area, were unscathed over the many years since. This has been attributed to the likelihood of only zero or one damage to each DNA element that is quickly repaired by the mechanisms present in the strand. Irreversible illness as in high cancer rate occurs when radioactive material is ingested since multiple damage to a DNA element may not be reparable.

Michael 2
April 22, 2015 10:31 am

“how a cheap sheet metal and plywood desk would ward off an atomic bomb”
It wards off the thermal flash, blocks alpha and beta particles and protects from flying debris which is one of the most dangerous aspects of this whole thing.
Whether you’d want to be a survivor is a whole ‘nother question.
Anyway, thanks for a very good demonstration of equilibrium seeking in the presence of simultaneous decay and addition of new substances.

AJB
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 23, 2015 7:38 pm

If you want to play linear pot shot with a dynamic system; not a 2nd derivative in sight …
1. ML v HadCrut4
2. Add CO2 trend
3. Add Temp Trend
4. Hornswoggled
5. That’s better
Except it ain’t. The world economy had better slow or another strat cooling event show up to smack pCO2 around the head pretty soon.
Meanwhile, back to UAH.

Bart
Reply to  AJB
April 24, 2015 8:41 am

HADCRUT4 looks pretty good to me. HADCRUT4SH is even better, suggesting a dominant role of the oceans in the cycle.
These are stochastic variables, with random additional inputs and measurement error. Moreover, they are bulk measurements – if most of the action is occurring in specific places, then a weighted average of those places should provide a better fit than an overall uniform average. Determination of those places of activity and processing of the data is a job that would require more time than I have.
But, the high SNR which provides such an excellent fit of dCO2/dt with bulk averaged temperatures is a strong indicator that the driving relationship is between a temperature modulated process and atmospheric CO2. Human emissions are not temperature modulated. They are not the driver.

AJB
Reply to  AJB
April 24, 2015 9:53 am

Bart, I agree. My theory is that step-downs in strat temp cause the natural sinks to speed up. The interesting bit is that when a big volcano goes off strat temp initially lurches up before falling to a new level lower than it was before. But it takes a long time for the system as a whole to settle down to a new equilibrium. You can see that the rate of CO2 increase takes a dive immediately after such an event. Too fast for that to be due to trop cooling alone IMHO. It also seems that ozone recovery in the strat takes longer that the three years or so for SO2 to wash out in the trop and temperatures at the surface to recover. For the remainder of that period we seem to get increased ocean heating and the CO2 rate increases. That in turn leads to a big El Nino, now eight years or so years after the volcanic event. On that basis El Chicon and Pinitubo overlap, which is maybe why we had a monster El Nino in 98.
Contrast that with the bomb event. That seems to have had a lesser effect in the trop but a longer lasting effect in the strat, perhaps because it destroyed ozone over a larger altitude band. It’s interesting to compare strat temps for the northern and southern hemisphere after that thing went off. Anyone have better data?

Reply to  AJB
April 27, 2015 10:02 am

AJB,
Add human emissions and net sink rate and it is clear that humans are delivering most of the increase in the atmosphere and that the variability is in the sink rate, not the source rate…
The main cause of the variability in sink rate is in the SH tropical forests: short episodes of heat and drought caused by El Niño make the Amazon a temporary source of CO2. A little more down to earth than what happens in the stratosphere, but it may be a result of special forces (sun, volcanoes) on the ocean fluctuations, nobody knows what is triggering an El Niño…
As the trend is not caused by vegetation (the whole biosphere is a net sink for CO2) and the CO2 levels increase and the δ13C decrease in the NH first, the source is in the NH and has a low 13C level, thus not caused by the oceans either. The NH is where 90% of all low-13C human emissions are emitted…

Hoser
April 22, 2015 10:13 pm

Willis, takes the stage again. Trots out another half-baked analysis. Adds to confusion, because he doesn’t get it, and doesn’t resolve anything. Please tell us more about the South Pacific instead. Several of my old posts here do address specifically these points.
The bottom line is, the off-rate of CO2 conclusively demonstrated by the bomb spike data is a benchmark you can use to analyze the rest. It tells half of the story. It doesn’t explain how different reservoirs work, or what sources of CO2 there are. That does not matter. It doesn’t address the total amount of CO2 in the air. That’s not the point of that data. We know how much LEAVES the atmosphere and how fast it goes. And that rate is steady for at least half of a century.
When you combine the IPCC estimate of anthropogenic CO2 releases since 1750, and start with the supposed non-anthropogenic CO2 level of 280 ppmv in 1750, we can try to blame ourselves for the increase in CO2. But if you do blame us, and you use the 5 year half-life of CO2 in the atmosphere, you find you can’t fit both the 1760 level and the rate of CO2 increase measured at Mauna Loa since 1960. Thus, Nature must be more responsible for the level of CO2 than we are.
So don’t come back with a goofy line like: “Oh, you are conflating… blah blah”. I’m telling you the CO2 level is a result of the on rate and off rate. We do know the off rate for sure, and it’s essentially constant. That puts limits on what the on rate can be, but since the CO2 levels are increasing, the on rate is larger than the off rate. My point is, you can’t explain the increase by just anthropogenic CO2 releases, but they try. They try.
Think about a balloon with a hole in it. The size of the balloon depends on how fast the air comes out and how fast you blow into the balloon. If you blow very hard, the balloon will inflate; less hard, the balloon will get smaller. Without knowing the amount of air going into the balloon, the rate of the balloon getting smaller alone doesn’t tell you how much air comes out the hole. In our balloon, the Earth, we know how big the hole is and how fast the air is coming out. We know how much we are blowing into the balloon. Between the two, we can figure out how much Nature is blowing in.
A complication is, we are blowing in more each year at an exponentially increasing rate, and may approach Nature’s rate. But even so, that doesn’t mean at that point having a higher CO2 concentration is a bad thing. That’s a separate question. First, we don’t know the global warming last century was due to CO2 as claimed. Next, we don’t know whether the Earth will cool with 500 or 600ppmv CO2, but I suspect it will. We are on the slow downhill ride to the next glaciation. If a higher atmospheric CO2 concentration could stop that process, what’s wrong with that? Well, I won’t hold my breath.

milodonharlani
Reply to  Hoser
April 23, 2015 11:03 am

IMO the natural sinks are also growing, thanks to milder climate & more CO2 in the air, from whatever sources. If the increased sink rate due to more plant food is significant or not, I don’t know & it would in any case be hard to estimate.

Bart
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 23, 2015 11:22 am

The argument goes thusly:
A = N + H – S
A = atmospheric change
N = natural inputs
H = human inputs
S = sink activity
A is about 1/2 of H, so N – S is less than zero, hence nature is a net sink, hence H is responsible for the rise.
The flaw in the argument is that sink activity S is the result of dynamic feedback. It is dependent on the total atmospheric concentration and thereby a function of both N and H, S = S(N,H). So, although the sinks are natural, their activity is partially dependent on H. The portion dependent on H is, fundamentally, artificially induced sink activity, or artificial sinks.
To truly state that nature, on its own, is a net sink, you would have to prove that N – S(N,0) is less than zero. But, we don’t have that information. All we have is N – S(N,H). It still has a human induced component in it.
If you removed H, then S would settle down to a lower value, and N – S(N,0) might well be greater than zero. There is no telling on the basis of this information alone. Other lines of evidence indicate that, indeed, positive N – S(N,0) would be the case.

Bart
Reply to  Bart
April 23, 2015 2:48 pm

And, it has no impact on the question of attribution. Because even though the processes are natural, a portion them are induced by anthropogenic activity. Take away the anthropogenic forcing, and that portion disappears with it. It’s a classic feedback dynamic.

olliebourque@me.com
Reply to  Bart
April 23, 2015 3:01 pm

A-H = N – S
Since we know both the values of A and of H ( A=H/2 ) we know
H/2 – H = N – S
or -H/2 = N – S
Since H is positive, we know -H/2 is negative.
..
Therefor N – S is negative.
Don’t care about the details of N or the details of S, we know N – S is negative or that S > N

Since S > N with rising T it shoots Salby down real fast.

Bart
Reply to  Bart
April 23, 2015 3:32 pm

Really stupid, olliebourque.

olliebourque@me.com
Reply to  Bart
April 23, 2015 3:39 pm

Mr Bart
.
Could you please be more specific as to what is your objection to my post?

Bart
Reply to  Bart
April 23, 2015 4:22 pm

Could you please read through the thread and realize why I have already explained why the so-called “mass-balance” argument is mind-numbingly stupid?

olliebourque@me.com
Reply to  Bart
April 23, 2015 4:27 pm

“Don’t care about the details of N or the details of S, we know N – S is negative ”
Repeat: N – S is negative

Michael 2
Reply to  olliebourque@me.com
April 23, 2015 5:17 pm

olliebourque@me.com groks Bart.
Bart says: “…so N – S is less than zero”
Whereupon ollie says “Repeat: N – S is negative”
I think we have a consensus! Obviously this part is very important to some people.

olliebourque@me.com
Reply to  Bart
April 23, 2015 4:51 pm

PS Bart
.
The quantity ( N – S ) is negative based on empirical measured quantities.

olliebourque@me.com
Reply to  Bart
April 23, 2015 5:25 pm

Yes Mr. Michael 2 N – S is negative.
That says that natural sources are less than natural sinks.
..
Even when global T is increasing.
..
Poor old Salby

Michael 2
Reply to  olliebourque@me.com
April 24, 2015 5:57 pm

olliebourque@me.com “Yes Mr. Michael 2 N – S is negative.”
Still on that one?
“That says that natural sources are less than natural sinks.”
Well now at least I understand the claim. Whether it is true I am not so sure but this has been an interesting debate.

Bart
Reply to  Bart
April 23, 2015 7:32 pm

No kidding. So what? It has no bearing on the attribution question. Can you read? How stupid are you?

olliebourque@me.com
Reply to  Bart
April 24, 2015 7:18 am

“It has no bearing on the attribution question”
How thick are you? It has everything to do with “attribution”
..
It says that the current rise in atmospheric CO2 is NOT coming from natural sources.

Bart
Reply to  Bart
April 24, 2015 8:28 am

No, Ollie. That’s not what it says at all. I explained in full up-thread. Can you read?

olliebourque@me.com
Reply to  Bart
April 24, 2015 8:40 am

Bart, I have high school algebra students that are brighter than you.
..
1) “The quantity ( N – S ) is negative” Your response: “No kidding”
.
2) ” ( N – S ) is negative ” means N – S < 0
.
3) N – S < 0 means N < S
.
4) N = natural inputs & S = sink activity
So N < S means sinks exceed natural inputs.
Thanks for playing Bart.

Bart
Reply to  Bart
April 24, 2015 8:45 am

When you graduate to calculus, maybe you will understand why your comments are so stupid. Read the above carefully. Maybe if you do so over and over, some of it will leach through by osmosis.

olliebourque@me.com
Reply to  Bart
April 24, 2015 9:02 am

You don’t balance a check book with calculus

Bart
Reply to  Bart
April 24, 2015 9:10 am

And, the Earth’s CO2 regulatory system is not a bank account. You need calculus there.
But, go on insisting 2 + 2 = 3. Dig yourself as deep as you please.

olliebourque@me.com
Reply to  Bart
April 24, 2015 9:15 am

Not talking about regulation, I’m discussing empirical measurements.
..
Please see: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2015/04/19/the-secret-life-of-half-life/#comment-1915291

Bart
Reply to  Bart
April 24, 2015 9:20 am

It has no bearing on attribution, as I keep trying to get through your thick skull.
Why won’t you read the above and argue something even remotely germane? Yes, N – S(N,H). That is trivial. But, it has no bearing on the attribution problem.
Either address the argument, or I will assume you are a bot, and respond no further.

Bart
Reply to  Bart
April 24, 2015 9:21 am

Yes, N – S(N,H) is less than zero. That is trivial. But, it has no bearing on the attribution problem.

olliebourque@me.com
Reply to  Bart
April 24, 2015 9:30 am

“Yes, N – S(N,H) is less than zero”
..
Great, so according to that statement, natural sources are less than an/all the sink(s).
..
If that is the case, then the increase in atmospheric CO2 cannot be from natural sources
..
Thank you Bart.

Bart
Reply to  Bart
April 24, 2015 9:43 am

“If that is the case, then the increase in atmospheric CO2 cannot be from natural sources “
Non sequitur. (That’s Latin for, “it does not follow”).
Can you read?

olliebourque@me.com
Reply to  Bart
April 24, 2015 9:47 am

Since the sinks are larger than the natural sources Bart, why don’t you tell us where the CO2 that is accumulating in the atmosphere is coming from…. Keep in mind you have admitted that N – S is negative.

Bart
Reply to  Bart
April 24, 2015 10:03 am

Most likely the oceans. Human inputs are rapidly sequestered.
I’m sorry the argument is too subtle for you. It’s always a hazard when lay people get involved in scientific debates that are over their heads.
I assure you, young Ollie, that everything I am telling you is scientifically correct, and that the so-called “mass balance” argument is jejune. This is a dynamic system. The sinks respond to all CO2 in the atmosphere, not just naturally produced CO2.
This is why I take pains to point out that S is a function of both N and H. Yes, N – S(N,H) is less than zero. But, this does not compel that N – S(N,0) must be less than zero.
To establish human attribution, you would have to prove the latter, but you only have the former. It’s not enough. It is very easy to have N – S(N,H) be less than zero while N – S(N,0) is greater than zero.
Having N – S(N,H) less than zero has no bearing on the question of attribution. Only proof that N – S(N,0) is less than zero would do that.
Now, do you get it?

olliebourque@me.com
Reply to  Bart
April 24, 2015 10:21 am

Can’t be the oceans. The sinks are gobbling up everything the oceans are putting out.

N < S

philincalifornia
Reply to  Bart
April 24, 2015 1:38 pm

olliebourque@me.com April 24, 2015 at 9:02 am
You don’t balance a check book with calculus

If it has interest that compounds you do or, more likely, your bank does it for you.
http://math.stackexchange.com/questions/592510/calculus-problem-interest-compounded-continuously

Bart
Reply to  Bart
April 25, 2015 1:41 pm

“Show me how you can reach a fourfold increase in increase rate in the atmosphere and a fourfold increase in net sink rate with a fourfold increase in human emissions and e.g. a threefold or fivefold increase in natural inputs…”
A loaded question. You don’t know the net sink rate. This is where you err. You make the assumption of your sink rate, and the rest follows. But, your assumption of sink rate is arbitrary, so your logic is circular.
“…the biosphere as a whole is a proven net sink for CO2 of ~1 GtC/year (~0.5 ppmv/year), based on the oxygen balance.”
Like a circle in a spiral, like a wheel within a wheel. It isn’t proven, Ferdinand. Just because an observation is consistent with an interpretation does not mean the interpretation is correct.
“If you ad low-13C CO2 from vegetation or fossil fuels to the atmosphere, that will lower the 13C/12C ratio in the atmosphere.”
No, it might lower it. A lowering of the 13C/12C ratio is consistent with low 13C/12C influx from a particular source, but it is not uniquely caused by it. There are other sources, and dynamic sinks, and the egress matters just as much as the influx.
“…and burning efficiencies and the net sink rate is the difference between these two.”
No. The net sink rate is the difference between total egress and total influx. Influx and egress of natural sources and sinks are part of it.
“No assumptions made, just calculated…”
Totally, completely, utterly wrong. I have explained why until my face is blue, and my fingers are aching.
“And I have not the slightest problems with understanding dynamic systems which must obey all the same stuff like Henry’s law as good as static systems must do…”
You do. You do not get dynamic systems. You do not understand how to treat the continuous natural influx and egress of CO2 throughout the system. You think that temperature sensitivity must be in ppmv/K, when the empirical evidence clearly shows that it is in ppmv/K/unit-of-time. You do not seem to understand that we are never in equilibrium, and you mistakenly apply equilibrium laws to this system which is not in equilibrium.
I am tired, and I must prepare for more travel this week. Until we meet again….

Reply to  Bart
April 27, 2015 1:13 am

Bart April 25, 2015 at 1:41 pm
You don’t know the net sink rate. This is where you err.
What? The net sink rate is the difference between human emissions and what is measured in the atmosphere. That is a simple calculation, like 2 = 4 – 2. Maybe too simple for you…
Like a circle in a spiral, like a wheel within a wheel. It isn’t proven, Ferdinand. Just because an observation is consistent with an interpretation does not mean the interpretation is correct.
Bart, you are simply out of your depth: the oxygen balance is as solid proof that the biosphere is a net sink for CO2 as the CO2 measurements are proof that CO2 in the atmosphere is increasing. No way to have a different interpretation.
No, it might lower it. A lowering of the 13C/12C ratio is consistent with low 13C/12C influx from a particular source, but it is not uniquely caused by it.
Bart, you are again out of your depth: there are two unique sources of low-13C CO2: fossil organics and recent organics. All other important sources are inorganic which have a much higher 13C/12C ratio. That includes the oceans, volcanic emissions, rock weathering,…
Recent organics (including plants, bacteria, molds, insects, animals) are a net sink for CO2. Not a source. Thus not the cause of the measured decline of the 13C/12C ratio in the atmosphere. Neither are the oceans.
Thus the decline in 13C in the atmosphere is uniquely caused by the use of fossil fuels and nothing else.
No. The net sink rate is the difference between total egress and total influx. Influx and egress of natural sources and sinks are part of it.
At any moment in time, the mass balance must be obeyed: you can’t destroy or create carbon atoms. The evolution of what is in the atmosphere is the momentary amount plus the sum of the integrals of all individual influxes and outfluxes over the time span of interest.
Over a year, the total human input is ~9 GtC. The increase in the atmosphere is ~4.5 GtC/year. The net difference is ~4.5 GtC/year more natural sinks than sources (including 0.08 GtC/year extra sink rate caused by the human emissions of that year).
You do. You do not get dynamic systems. You do not understand how to treat the continuous natural influx and egress of CO2 throughout the system.
Wow, 34 years practical experience with dynamic systems ranging from seconds to days of response time and I don’t understand dynamic systems? Maybe not, but you clearly don’t understand natural systems. Probably too slow for you?
You think that temperature sensitivity must be in ppmv/K, when the empirical evidence clearly shows that it is in ppmv/K/unit-of-time.
Again, you are clearly far out of your knowledge here: the solubility of any gas in any liquid obeys Henry’s law which was established in 1803 and confirmed with millions of laboratory and field observations for CO2 in seawater. It is limited to ppmv/K and when the ppmv’s match the K’s, the total influxes and total outfluxes match each other and nothing happens with the CO2 levels anymore.
It is your misattribution of the slope of the CO2 rate of change to temperature change which is your problem.
That is 212 years of established physical science compared to 55 years of misattribution…
You do not seem to understand that we are never in equilibrium, and you mistakenly apply equilibrium laws to this system which is not in equilibrium.
Of course, nature is never in equilibrium, but the dynamic behavior will follow the same physical laws as for static systems.
No way that a small increase in ocean temperature will give a continuous net influx of CO2 without negative feedback from the increased CO2 pressure in the atmosphere on the net influx.
That is i*m*p*o*s*s*i*b*l*e.

Bart
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 24, 2015 10:28 am

Wrong. N – S(N,0) is not less than zero.

olliebourque@me.com
Reply to  Bart
April 24, 2015 10:47 am

Empirical measurement disagrees with that statement.

olliebourque@me.com
Reply to  Bart
April 24, 2015 10:53 am

You previously said “Yes, N – S(N,H) is less than zero”

Bart
Reply to  Bart
April 24, 2015 11:03 am

Right. N – S(N,H) is less than zero. N – S(N,0) is not.

olliebourque@me.com
Reply to  Bart
April 24, 2015 12:09 pm

Doesn’t matter if it’s S(N,H) or S(N,0) the sinks both are greater than natural sources.
N < S for all sinks.

Bart
Reply to  Bart
April 24, 2015 12:19 pm

Wrong. N – S(N,0) is not less than zero.

olliebourque@me.com
Reply to  Bart
April 24, 2015 3:08 pm

Empirical measurements say it is less than zero

olliebourque@me.com
Reply to  Bart
April 24, 2015 3:13 pm

The sum of all sinks are greater than N
..
N < S
..
See my post at April 24, 2015 at 8:40 am

Bart
Reply to  Bart
April 24, 2015 4:18 pm

Stuck on stupid. What can I say? The child cannot learn.

Reply to  Bart
April 25, 2015 4:28 am

olliebourque@me.com
Thanks for the help, to no avail for Bart, as he is completely blinded by his theory which violates about all known observations.
Nevertheless, there is one and only situation where the natural cycle can overwhelm human emissions: if the sinks are responding extremely rapid on disturbances and the natural cycle increased in lockstep with human emissions (a factor 4 in the past 55 years).
For which is not the slightest indication: the biosphere is a proven sink for CO2 and the oceans would increase the δ13C level of the atmosphere, while we see a firm decline in δ13C in the atmosphere…
Neither does the residence time show a 4-times decrease…

Reply to  Bart
April 25, 2015 4:44 am

Bart
I have calculated the extra sink caused by the human contribution here, which shows that the human contribution has a negligible influence on the net sink rate. That shows that near all sinks are natural and only respond to the total increase in the atmosphere, whatever its source, and that the sinks will go on for a long time after the last human emissions with an e-fold decay rate of over 50 years.
Thus N – S(N,0) is less than zero for years after all human emissions have ceased, because S doesn’t depend on N, S depends on the total increase in the atmosphere above the equilibrium, which was a function of N and H.

Bart
Reply to  Bart
April 25, 2015 9:36 am

“Nevertheless, there is one and only situation where the natural cycle can overwhelm human emissions: if the sinks are responding extremely rapid on disturbances and the natural cycle increased in lockstep with human emissions (a factor 4 in the past 55 years).”
This is completely and utterly false. There is an entire continuum of solutions for natural inputs and sink activity which would be consistent with the observations.
“…the biosphere is a proven sink for CO2…”
It isn’t. Again, you slip implicitly into the discredited “mass-balance” argument, the acceptance of which calls into question your entire ability to judge what is happening.
“…and the oceans would increase the δ13C level of the atmosphere…”
You think. But, there is no proof.
“I have calculated the extra sink caused by the human contribution here…”
You have calculated it based on an assumption. It is a constrained solution, and the constraint is arbitrary.
“Thus N – S(N,0) is less than zero…”
Nope. The only observation is N – S(N,H) is less than zero. You arbitrarily constrain N – S(N,0) is less than zero by your assumptions. It is circular logic.
I’m sorry you do not see this. Regrettably, as I have pointed out before, you just don’t have the maths. You keep trying to stuff everything into a static analysis framework, and it fails, because this is a dynamic system.

Reply to  Bart
April 25, 2015 1:17 pm

Bart:
This is completely and utterly false. There is an entire continuum of solutions for natural inputs and sink activity which would be consistent with the observations.
Well show me the math. Show me how you can reach a fourfold increase in increase rate in the atmosphere and a fourfold increase in net sink rate with a fourfold increase in human emissions and e.g. a threefold or fivefold increase in natural inputs…
It isn’t. Again, you slip implicitly into the discredited “mass-balance” argument
What? As repeatedly said, obviously to no avail: the biosphere as a whole is a proven net sink for CO2 of ~1 GtC/year (~0.5 ppmv/year), based on the oxygen balance. Not the mass balance:
http://www.bowdoin.edu/~mbattle/papers_posters_and_talks/BenderGBC2005.pdf
You think. But, there is no proof.
Bart, that remark only shows that you have not the slightest idea where you are talking about:
If you ad low-13C CO2 from vegetation or fossil fuels to the atmosphere, that will lower the 13C/12C ratio in the atmosphere. If you add 13C rich CO2 from the oceans to the atmosphere, that will increase the 13C/12C ratio in the atmosphere. What is measured is a firm decrease in lockstep to human emissions.
You have calculated it based on an assumption. It is a constrained solution, and the constraint is arbitrary.
That the increase in the atmosphere was a fourfold in the atmosphere is directly measured, the increase in human emissions is calculated from sales inventories and burning efficiencies and the net sink rate is the difference between these two. So, where is the assumption?
You arbitrarily constrain N – S(N,0) is less than zero by your assumptions.
No assumptions made, just calculated…
And I have not the slightest problems with understanding dynamic systems which must obey all the same stuff like Henry’s law as good as static systems must do…

Bart
Reply to  Bart
April 25, 2015 1:43 pm

Hit wrong reply link. See above.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 25, 2015 3:36 am

Willis,
it is furthering the ongoing discussion
Which gets repeated every few weeks/days nowadays…

Bart
Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
April 25, 2015 9:39 am

It is very tiring. You just insist on dealing with this system in a static framework. You construct a neat little narrative based on your static assumptions. But, it has little to do with how actual reality unfolds.

Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
April 25, 2015 1:33 pm

Bart,
I don’t know what your daily work does include, I have some feeling that it has mainly to do with high frequency responses (radar, communication,…). Certainly not with chemical processes.
Besides building my own radio when I was fifteen, my knowledge of that field is limited. But I know that there is no phase distortion whatever if you add two independent streams of CO2 to a large reservoir where one stream is highly variable, but has hardly a trend and the other is hardly variable, but shows a continuous increasing trend, if the sink rate is slow enough…
And I think that my knowledge of dynamic processes (including a few runaway reactions) is at least more practical than yours…

Bart
Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
April 25, 2015 1:47 pm

“…where one stream is highly variable, but has hardly a trend …”
T very clearly has a large trend, and it necessarily produces the trend in dCO2/dt. There is no way around it. There is no doubt about it. You are very confused on this issue. But, to get the proper phase response, you must have T feeding into the derivative of dCO2/dt, and the sensitivity is necessarily in ppmv/K/unit-of-time.
No way around it, Ferdinand. None at all.

Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
April 25, 2015 3:16 pm

Bart,
Temperature has a “large” trend of 0.6°C over the past 55 years. According to the solubility of CO2 in seawater, that is good for an increase of 5 ppmv in the atmosphere.
Human emissions show a trend of 150 ppmv over the same time span.
The increase in the atmosphere was 80 ppmv in the same time span.
It seems to me that some larges are larger than other larges…
to get the proper phase response, you must have T feeding into the derivative of dCO2/dt, and the sensitivity is necessarily in ppmv/K/unit-of-time.
Bart, I repeat: any increase in temperature gives a CO2 increase in the atmosphere which asymptotes towards the new equilibrium which is ~8 ppmv/K. That is what the physical law says, already established in 1803 and confirmed by millions of measurements.
Thus the integration is between T and CO2 and derived from that, between dT/dt and dCO2/dt. NOT between T and dCO2/dt.
To have an integral relationship, you must have a 90 deg. phase lag. There is a 90 deg. lag between T and CO2 and between dT/dt and dCO2/dt. There is zero lag between T and dCO2/dt, thus in your own words: no integral relationship…

Bart
Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
April 25, 2015 3:59 pm

“According to the solubility of CO2 in seawater, that is good for an increase of 5 ppmv in the atmosphere.”
Ridiculous, Ferdinand. Laughable. Crazy. The data show clearly that the sensitivity is in ppmv/K/unit–of-time.
This is a dynamic system. Every instant of time, new CO2 is upwelling, and old CO2 is downwelling. Your static analysis does not apply.
“I repeat: any increase in temperature gives a CO2 increase in the atmosphere which asymptotes towards the new equilibrium which is ~8 ppmv/K.”
I repeat: you are fitting the data to your theory, rather than your theory to the data. It is ridiculous. Laughable. Crazy.
“Thus the integration is between T and CO2 and derived from that, between dT/dt and dCO2/dt. NOT between T and dCO2/dt.”</i
It doesn't give the right phase. It's 90 degrees off. You are wrong. Ridiculously, laughably, crazily, tragically, wrong.
“There is zero lag between T and dCO2/dt, thus in your own words: no integral relationship…”
Yes, zero lag and dCO2/dt = k*(T – T0). That means CO2 is the integral of k*(T – T0). It is saying the same thing!!!
There is no way around it. Your attempt to get around it is mathematical gibberish!!! Nonsense. Craziness.
I’m glad I’m leaving. I feel like I have been on an extended visit to the asylum. I can’t maintain a sense of decorum any longer, or they’re going to have to commit me!

olliebourque@me.com
Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
April 25, 2015 4:23 pm

Bart you say: dCO2/dt = k*(T – T0)
..
For the past 15-18 years per RSS (T-T0) = 0.
For the past 15-18 years dCO2/dt has been 2.1 ppmv/yr
..
What is your value of k?

Bart
Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
April 26, 2015 8:29 am

For the past 57 years, T0 has been about -0.64K, and k has been about 0.22 ppmv/K/month according to RSS. For the past 15-18 years, T has been about 0.14K. Thus, k*(T – T0) has been about 0.22*(0.14+0.64) = 0.17 ppmv/month = 2.1 ppmv/yr.

olliebourque@me.com
Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
April 26, 2015 9:14 am

Bart, you are wrong.
.
You say, “For the past 15-18 years, T has been about 0.14K.”
..
Lord Monckton shows you how wrong you are
.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2015/04/06/el-nio-or-ot-the-pause-lengthens-again/
.
There has been no rise in global T in the past 18 years, so (T-T0) = 0.

Bart
Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
April 26, 2015 9:37 am

Man, you are dumb. Sure, mean T has not changed. Therefore, the gap between T and T0 has remained steady with essentially zero mean variation, at about T – T0 = 0.78K, which begets a steady rate in atmospheric CO2.
Ollie, or David Socrates, or whatever your nom du jour is, just butt out of the argument, will you? You are clueless.

Bart
Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
April 26, 2015 10:01 am

I was wrong. I read the mean temp off the scaled plot. The mean temp has been more like 0.2K, so the mean deviation has been about T – T0 = 0.84K, which begets a mean rate of change of CO2 of about 0.18 ppmv/month = 2.2 ppmv/yr.
But, still very dumb to claim T – T0 zero when I gave you the plot.

olliebourque@me.com
Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
April 26, 2015 10:23 am

Bart
,,
You need to get up to speed on what has been happening to global temps in the past 18 years.
..
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/rss/from:1997/plot/rss/from:1997/trend
..
Look real carefully at that plot, and even YOU might even see a drop in temperatures.
..
Please explain why your “theory” does not explain the rising CO2 levels in the past 18 years when temperatures have not been rising.

Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
April 27, 2015 12:12 am

olliebourque@me.com
Bart simply changes his T0 whenever it needs to fit the data of the period in question. In this case, with flat temperatures, the CO2 levels still go up until eternity, without any response of the increased CO2 levels in the atmosphere on the ocean influxes and outfluxes.
That is easy to do: adjusting the offset and factor always can fit the slopes of two straight lines, without any physical base about cause and effect…
Imagine the 0.002°C T – T0 difference to obtain the change of 10°C between a glacial and interglacial warming over 5,000 years…

Bart
Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
May 2, 2015 10:50 am

Ferdinand Engelbeen April 27, 2015 at 12:12 am
“Bart simply changes his T0 whenever it needs to fit the data of the period in question.”
That is how linearization of nonlinear systems works. The linearized solution is valid for some interval of time, but not for all time. How long it is valid is system dependent. But, a constant value for T0 is remarkably consistent with the data for the past 57 years.
So, again, due to your lack of experience with the mathematics, you call out something that is unremarkable and commonplace in the analysis of nonlinear systems as somehow being a cause for skepticism. Mathematics is the language of, the very basis for, modern science. Why you think you can make firm conclusions about this system while ignoring the mathematical fundamentals is something that escapes my understanding entirely.
“That is easy to do: adjusting the offset and factor always can fit the slopes of two straight lines, without any physical base about cause and effect…”
The dCO2/dt = k*(T – T0) relationship fits a lot more than just the slopes of two lines. It fits every major bump and burble in the data for over five decades running. You are the one who is fitting a straight line (computed trend in human emissions) to another straight line (computed trend in atmospheric concentration) and claiming it is conclusive. It isn’t. Yours is the trivial match which has no physical meaning.
olliebourqueme.com April 26, 2015 at 10:23 am
“Please explain why your “theory” does not explain the rising CO2 levels in the past 18 years when temperatures have not been rising.”
It does explain it. I gave you the plot. I gave you the values of k and T0. Look at the plot. It’s right there. How carefully do I have to spoon the pablum before you stop splashing it on your bib?

Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
May 2, 2015 2:15 pm

Bart,
That is how linearization of nonlinear systems works.
Except that there is not the slightest reason to do any linearization as the whole CO2 cycle reacts as a simple, first order linear process.
So, again, due to your lack of experience with chemical equilibrium processes you make things far more complicated than necessary.
The dCO2/dt = k*(T – T0) relationship fits a lot more than just the slopes of two lines. It fits every major bump and burble in the data for over five decades running.
The bumps and burbles are almost completely caused by temperature bumps and burbles. Nobody refutes that. But the slope is proven from a different process that what reacts on the temperature bumps and burbles.
Thus the arbitrary match of the slopes has not the slightest power of proof that the temperature slope is the cause of the CO2 slope, the more that that violates physical laws like Henry’s law and a lot of other observations
The increase in human emissions is calculated from measured sales and measured burning efficiency for each type of fuel.
The increase in atmospheric CO2 is accurately measured.
The net sink rate is the difference between the foregoing two
All three increased a fourfold in the past 55 years.
That looks like a straightforward linear first order equilibrium process, slightly modulated by temperature changes.
As the human emissions were always larger than the increase in the atmosphere in the past 55 years, it seems a vey good candidate for being the cause of the increase. The more that it does fit all observations…

Bart
Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
May 2, 2015 2:50 pm

“Except that there is not the slightest reason to do any linearization as the whole CO2 cycle reacts as a simple, first order linear process.”
This is an assertion which begs the question. There is not the slightest reason to constrain this system to be linear and time invariant over all time.
“But the slope is proven from a different process that what reacts on the temperature bumps and burbles.”
There would be phase distortion. There is none observable.
There is no violation of Henry’s law. Henry’s law is for steady state equilibrium in a closed system. This system is always in flux.
“As the human emissions were always larger than the increase in the atmosphere in the past 55 years, it seems a vey good candidate for being the cause of the increase.”
Certainly not on that basis. The so-called “mass-balance” argument merely fails to disqualify human attribution, but it does not lend any support to it.
The more that it does fit all observations…
It does not fit this.

April 26, 2015 4:40 am

Bart,
You are just talking nonsense: it doesn’t make any difference for the equilibrium if that is reached in a static or dynamic process. The CO2 levels in the atmosphere just will reach the new equilibrium for a temperature increase with 8 ppmv/K that is all. At that moment the average pCO2 of the oceans and the pCO2 of the atmosphere are equal and the incoming and outgoing CO2 fluxes are equal. No matter if that is the same surface of a cylinder in a laboratory or the world oceans where the source and sink places are thousands of kilometers apart.
Yes, zero lag and dCO2/dt = k*(T – T0). That means CO2 is the integral of k*(T – T0). It is saying the same thing!!!
Fatal error in your reasoning: CO2 is not the integral of k*(T – T0), it is the integral towards the new equilibrium, thus of the difference between current level and new level which has a finite endpoint.
That difference evolves towards zero over time:
dCO2/dt = k2*[k*(T – To) – ΔpCO2(atm)]
Where k = ~8 ppmv/K and ΔpCO2(atm) the difference between current CO2 level in the atmosphere and the CO2 level at the old equilibrium.
The moment that k*(T – T0) and ΔpCO2(atm) are equal, dCO2/dt is zero:
ΔpCO2(atm) = k*(T – T0)
which is what Henry’s law says…
For the current atmosphere, k*(T – T0) is about 6 ppmv above the 1850 temperature equilibrium while the current CO2 level is 110 ppmv above the same equilibrium or dCO2/dt = k2*[6 – 110] = k2*[-104]
Or with other words, the current and far future CO2 level in the atmosphere is more sink than source (currently ~2.15 ppmv/year), except than human emissions still provide more CO2 per year (4.5 ppmv) than the sink rate for the current CO2 pressure in the atmosphere.
Sorry that you feel so badly, maybe you should consult a chemical engineer who has some experience in dynamic equilibriums…

Bart
Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
April 26, 2015 8:17 am

“dCO2/dt = k2*[k*(T – To) – ΔpCO2(atm)]”
Wrong. There is no such dynamic observable in the modern era. Any such extra terms would therefore necessarily have k2 tiny and k2*k the only significant scaling factor.
That means that dCO2/dt = k*(T – T0) is the only equation we need concern ourselves with to diagnose attribution, and the clear implication is that human inputs do not significantly influence atmospheric CO2 levels.
Maybe you should consider that not every system evolves like a chemical vat sitting on a factory floor. Maybe you should fit your theory to the data, rather than futilely trying to fit the data to your theory.

Reply to  Bart
April 26, 2015 9:34 am

Bart,
Your problem is that you attribute the whole slope to the increase in temperature, which would have merit if there were no other sources of extra CO2 which increase over time.
The variability of the CO2 rate of change which follows the temperature variability can be seen as a transient response (although not from the same processes) to temperature changes with an amplitude of 4-5 ppmv/°C.
An increase in temperature of 0.6°C is good for ~5 ppmv extra (at 8 ppmv/°C) in the atmosphere and then it ends, according to established theory and reality..
Human emissions were ~150 ppmv in the same time span.
The observed increase in the atmosphere is 80 ppmv in the same time span.
It seems to me that your attribution is not really what the data show…
And the laws of solubility of CO2 in seawater are exactly the same for a stirred reactor with a content of a few m3 as for the global oceans be it that the time frames are quite different…

Bart
Reply to  Bart
April 26, 2015 9:42 am

“And the laws of solubility of CO2 in seawater are exactly the same for a stirred reactor with a content of a few m3 as for the global oceans be it that the time frames are quite different…”
I have no problem. Ferdinand. You do. You are begging the question. Big time. The data tell us very clearly that your conception of how this system behaves is false.
It isn’t even a close call. You are 90 degrees out of phase with reality.

Reply to  Bart
April 26, 2015 12:56 pm

Bart,
The CO2 increase in the atmosphere after an ocean T increase needs time. It integrates towards the new equilibrium with a e-fold decay rate which depends of the exchange speed between oceans and atmosphere.
That makes that any sinusoidal change in T is followed by a sinusoidal change in CO2 with a lag of pi/2, independent of the frequency (if the system response is slow enough, which is the case here) and an amplitude which reduces with the increase in frequency.
That is exactly what is seen in the past 55 years: a small response of 4-5 ppmv/K for T changes with a pi/2 lag and a 6 ppmv increase as result of the total increase in temperature. That is all. Completely dwarfed by the much larger human emissions…

Reply to  Bart
April 28, 2015 8:20 am

Maybe Bart you should listen to Ferdinand who knows much more about this subject than you do, and stop spouting the same fallacious rubbish. As Salby said in his address the rate of change in pCO2 is governed by a proper balance equation, where he was wrong is in assuming that only the source term was temperature dependent.
The proper equation is:
d[CO2]/dt = Fossil Fuel emissions + Sources(CO2,T) – Sinks(CO2,T)
This balance equation is true at all timescales. As is clear from the data annual fossil fuel emissions are greater than the difference between Sources and Sinks, this is true at [CO2]=400 ppmv just as it was in 1960 when [CO2] was 320 ppmv. Small scale modulation of the [CO2] by T does not mean that human emissions are not the major source of additional atmospheric CO2.

Bart
Reply to  Bart
May 2, 2015 10:30 am

Ferdinand Engelbeen April 26, 2015 at 12:56 pm
“That makes that any sinusoidal change in T is followed by a sinusoidal change in CO2 with a lag of pi/2, independent of the frequency (if the system response is slow enough, which is the case here) and an amplitude which reduces with the increase in frequency.”
Yeah. In other words, it is an integral relationship. And, the trend in T is thereby causing a quadratic rise in CO2. Which means human inputs cannot be a significant contributor, because accumulated emissions are also quadratic, and there is little to no room for them to contribute additional curvature.
“That is exactly what is seen in the past 55 years: a small response of 4-5 ppmv/K for T changes with a pi/2 lag and a 6 ppmv increase as result of the total increase in temperature. “
What is seen in the last 57 years is dCO2/dt = k*(T – T0). It accounts for all but, at most, a small portion of the observed changes. Human inputs are insignificant.
Phil. April 28, 2015 at 8:20 am
Oh, Phil. Maybe you should try to grasp the argument. Ferdinand’s narrative is inconsistent with the data.
“…fossil fuel emissions are greater than the difference between Sources and Sinks…”
The really stupid “mass balance” argument again. Anyone who proffers it can immediately be dismissed as having no idea what they are talking about. It has no bearing on attribution.
“Small scale modulation of the [CO2] by T does not mean that human emissions are not the major source of additional atmospheric CO2.”
It’s not a modulation. The polynomial order is wrong. The actual relationship is dCO2/dt = k*(T – T0).

Bart
Reply to  Bart
May 2, 2015 10:32 am

That is to say, it is not a modulation of human inputs. It is necessarily a modulation of natural inputs with the proper polynomial order.

Reply to  Bart
May 2, 2015 12:31 pm

Bart,
It is the integral of the temperature difference influence minus the influence of the increase in CO2 in the atmosphere:
dCO2/dt = k2*[k*(T – To) – ΔpCO2(atm)]
where ΔpCO2(atm) is the integral of dCO2/dt from t0 up to t-1.
Therefore dCO2/dt, without other influences, integrates towards zero, far from giving a slightly quadratic increase of CO2 over time.
The moment that dCO2/dt = 0, the whole ocean – atmosphere cycle is in steady state and
ΔpCO2(atm) = k*(T-T0) which is what Henry’s law says
Where k = ~8.
The only slightly quadratic increase left is from human emissions. The complete formula then is:
dCO2/dt = k2*[k*(T – To) – ΔpCO2(atm)] + dCO2(em)/dt
As dCO2(em)/dt was larger than dCO2/dt for every year of the past 55 years, besides the small term for k*(T-T0) of about 8 * 0.6 = ~5 ppmv in 55 years, the whole term ΔpCO2(atm) is the increasing pressure in the atmosphere, getting far above the temperature influence and thus giving more and more net sink growth.
In fact, the above terms dCO2(em)/dt – k2*ΔpCO2(atm) are about (*) what I plotted as the calculated increase of CO2 in the atmosphere, middle the variability caused by the temperature variability, assuming that temperature has little effect on the sink rate over time…
(*) For my calculation, I included (T-T0) in the base temperature to calculate ΔpCO2(atm)
***********************************
That above transient response is also what Paul_K did prove over a year ago already at Bishop Hill’s blog:
http://bishophill.squarespace.com/blog/2013/10/21/diary-date-murry-salby.html page 2, 4th comment:
For the transient behaviour, I am just using a simple response function of the form:-
τ * dCO2/dt = ΔT – f(T)* ΔCO2
where ΔT and ΔCO2 are measured from an arbitrary initial equilibrium condition. This equation is based on the assumption that the process of release of solute with temperature change starts off quickly and slows down as the concentrations adjust – a commonly observed phenomenon for the transient behavior of chemical equilibration processes.

Which gives always a pi/2 lag of a sinusoidal CO2 change of any frequency if the ocean response is slow enough, which is obvious the case here…

Bart
Reply to  Bart
May 2, 2015 2:35 pm

“…where ΔpCO2(atm) is the integral of dCO2/dt from t0 up to t-1.”
I.e., where ΔpCO2(atm) = CO2. I have no idea why you put t-1 in there. This is a continuous time differential equation.
You cannot independently specify your atmospheric CO2 and your rate of change of atmospheric CO2. They are coupled together in the differential equation, and there is a unique solution. And, that unique solution has a high pass filtered version of T in it. And, that high pass response would produce readily observable phase and gain distortion if it had any significant effect over this timeline.
This is not what the data tell us, Ferdinand. There is no distortion. The data follow the differential equation dCO2/dt = k*(T – T0) with high fidelity for the past 57 years.
Moreover, if there were a significant feedback of the type you claim, it would also attenuate the response to anthropogenic CO2. The response would track the rate of human emissions, rather than the full accumulation, with a loss of a full polynomial degree. So, your claims here are mutually inconsistent to begin with.
“Which gives always a pi/2 lag of a sinusoidal CO2 change of any frequency if the ocean response is slow enough, which is obvious the case here…”
No, only for frequencies well above the response cutoff. To fail to be observable in the roughly 60 years of data we have, that cutoff would have to be at least a decade lower, in the range of 1/600 years^-1 or less. Such a remote frequency cutoff has no practical effect on our discussion here, where the trend in temperatures has only been going on for a little over 100 years.
There is no room for negotiation. The trend in T is causing the trend in dCO2/dt.
Face it. There is no outlandish coincidence in the fact that, when you match T with dCO2/dt for the variation, you also match the trend. It is all of one piece. The conclusion is unavoidable, all of your tortured excuses and feverish drawing of epicycles notwithstanding. The trend in T is causing the trend in dCO2/dt.

Reply to  Bart
May 3, 2015 5:48 am

Bart,
Your unique solution of the equations:
dCO2/dt = k2*[k*(T – To) – ΔpCO2(atm)]
has a transfer function
H(s) = k2*k/(s + k2)
which can be written
H(s) = (k2*s/(s+k2)) * (k/s)

doesn’t fit what others have written about a transient response. In your formula, k2 is a positive constant (which allows you to show filtering) while – ΔpCO2(atm) is the growing CO2 concentration in the atmosphere as result of the increase in the atmosphere from t0 on, which is a growing negative feedback, not a constant. That ends with dCO2/dt = 0 or H(s) = 0 in your formula.
In the case of a transient response dy/dt depends on y. In this specific case, dCO2/dt depends of CO2, which makes the transfer function not that simple.
As Paul_k did show, a transient response can be approached by the Runge-Kutta methods.
That doesn’t show any filtering for any frequency lower than the ocean response…
The response does track the human emissions and the temperature increase alike. ΔpCO2(atm) now is far beyond what k*(T – T0) gives, with as result an increasing net sink over time, but not growing fast enough to remove all human emissions of any year. And the overall response is not fast enough to filter out the fast variations caused by temperature (by a different, much faster process). These just come through and the small slope of temperature is only good for 5 ppmv increase over time, which is surpassed by human emissions in less than 2 years…

Bart
Reply to  Bart
May 3, 2015 10:07 am

“That ends with dCO2/dt = 0 or H(s) = 0 in your formula.”
I think you are confusing the dc gain, which is H(s) evaluated at s = 0. As you can see, the dc gain is H(0) = k, which means for a constant T input, your equation settles to CO2 = k*(T – T0), which is the same thing as what you would get setting dCO2/dt = 0.
As for the rest, no, sorry, you are wrong there, too. You are 90 degrees out of phase with reality.

Bart
Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
April 26, 2015 9:45 am

If there are any lurkers out there interested, this conversation has been going on in parallel at Bishop Hill. There is a lot of overlap, but you may find interesting additional tidbits there.

Buck Smith
April 27, 2015 7:50 pm

One perspective often missed in CO2 discussions is that fossil fuel combustion generates only one tenth the CO2 emissions of bugs and insects. Fossil fuel combustion is also only one tenth the CO2 emissions of microbes. I don’t think we can assume those levels are constant. Nor do we have any independent way to measure them.

Reply to  Buck Smith
April 28, 2015 4:36 am

Buck,
There is an independent way to measure the net balance of the biosphere: the oxygen balance.
Besides a small contribution by warming oceans, all oxygen movements are from the biosphere: plants use CO2 and release oxygen, while bacteria, molds, insects, animals use oxygen and release CO2 by digesting plants, either directly or indirectly…
Burning fossil fuels also uses oxygen, but these quantities are known with reasonable accuracy. Each type of fuel has its own oxygen use, which makes that the total oxygen use of fossil fuel burning is known from the individual sales of the different fuels and their burning efficiency.
Since about 1990, the oxygen measurements are accurate enough to measure small changes of a few tenths of a ppmv in the 210,000 ppmv oxygen of the atmosphere. That shows that the biosphere as a whole is a net producer of oxygen, thus a net sink for CO2. Thus not the cause of the CO2 increase in the atmosphere. See:
http://www.bowdoin.edu/~mbattle/papers_posters_and_talks/BenderGBC2005.pdf
As near all life on earth depends of photosynthesis, there can’t be more life than photosynthesis has stored, at least not on longer term. Plant growth in general increases with increasing temperatures (if not limited by other constraints like drought, nutrients,..), thus storing more CO2 in more permanent carbon species (humus, peat, browncoal, coal)…

Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
April 28, 2015 6:40 am

And then their is the temperature dependent oxygen solubility in clouds that you are not considering in your mass balance. Burning of fossil fuel is not a major player in these processes.

Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
April 28, 2015 8:07 am

fhhaynie
Sorry, haven’t had the time to revisit your pages, it was too busy here and at the Bishop’s…
The changes in oxygen solubility in the ocean surface layer (average ~200 m) due to temperature changes is taken into account for the calculation, which is a tiny difference compared to burning fossil fuels and oxygen production by the biosphere. The amount of water in the atmosphere and clouds is only a fraction of what is in the ocean surface layer and that is very fast cycle: what goes into the atmosphere rains out in a few days. Even if the total amount increased or decreased over time or its average temperature changed a lot, that would hardly affect the trend in O2 use…

Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
April 28, 2015 4:34 pm

Yes, Evaporation and rain is a fast cycle but it is not constant. Cold water in the top of thunderclouds absorbs air (oxygen and nitrogen) as well as CO2. Some of that water shoots out the top, freezes and releases both air and CO2. The air in these clouds is moving upward fast enough to hold up large hail. When it rains, it is warmed and some evapotates releasing air and CO2. That which reaches the ocean surface continues the evaporation/condensation cycle while pumping CO2 into the upper atmosphere where it is distributed globally. Thermo tells you the direction of flow, kinetics tells you the rate.

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