The Secret Life of Half-Life

Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach [see update at the end of the head post]

I first got introduced to the idea of “half-life” in the 1950s because the topic of the day was nuclear fallout. We practiced hiding under our school desks if the bomb went off, and talked about how long you’d have to stay underground to be safe, and somehow in all of that we never pondered exactly how a cheap sheet metal and plywood desk would ward off an atomic bomb … a simpler time indeed. But I digress. Half-life, as many people know, is how long it takes for a given starting amount of some radioactive substance to decay until only half of the starting amount remains. For example, the half-life of radioactive caesium 137 is about thirty years. This means if you start with a gram of radioactive caesium, in thirty years you’ll only have half a gram. And in thirty more years you’ll have a quarter of a gram. And in thirty years there will only be an eighth of a gram of caesium remaining, and on ad infinitum.

This is a physical example of a common type of natural decay called “exponential decay”. The hallmark of exponential decay is that every time period, the decay is a certain percentage of what remains at that time. Exponential decay also describes what happens when a system which is at some kind of equilibrium is disturbed from that equilibrium. The system doesn’t return to equilibrium all at once. Instead, each year it moves a certain percentage of the remaining distance to equilibrium. Figure 1 shows the exponential decay after a single disturbance at time zero, as the disturbance is slowly decaying back to the pre-pulse value.

example exponential decay single pulseFigure 1. An example of a hypothetical exponential decay of a system at equilibrium from a single pulse of amplitude 1 at time zero. Each year it moves a certain percentage of the distance to the equilibrium value. The “half-life” and the time constant “tau” are two different ways of measuring the same thing, which is the decay rate. Half-life is the time to decay to half the original value. The time constant “tau” is the time to decay to 37% of the original value. Tau is also known as the “e-folding time”.

Note that the driving impulse in Figure 1 is a single unit pulse, and in response we see a steady decay back to equilibrium. That is to say, the shape of the driving impulse is very different from the shape of the response.

Let’s consider a slightly more complex case. This is where we have an additional pulse of 1.0 units each succeeding year. That case is shown in Figure 2.

example exponential decay constant pulsesFigure 2. An example of a hypothetical exponential decay from constant annual pulses of amplitude 1. The pulses start at time zero and continue indefinitely. 

Now, this is interesting. In the beginning, the exponential decay is not all that large, because the disturbance isn’t that large. But when we add an additional identical pulse each year, the disturbance grows.

But when the disturbance grows, the size of the annual decay grows as well. As a result, eventually the disturbance levels off. After a while, although we’re adding a one unit pulse per year, the loss due to exponential decay one pulse per year, so there is no further increase.

The impulse in Figure 2 is a steady addition of 1 unit per year. So once again, the shape of the response is very different from the shape of the exponentially decayed response.

With that as prologue, we can look at the relationship between fossil fuel emissions and the resulting increase in airborne CO2. It is generally accepted that the injection of a pulse of e.g volcanic gases into the planetary atmosphere is followed by an exponential decay of the temporarily increased volcanic gas levels back to some pre-existing equilibrium. We know that this exponential decay of an injected gas pulse is a real phenomenon, because if that decay didn’t happen, we’d all be choked to death from accumulated volcanic gases.

Knowing this, we can use an exponential decay analysis of the fossil fuel emissions data to estimate the CO2 levels that would result from those same emissions. Figure 3 shows theoretical and observed increases in various CO2 levels.

increase airborne sequestered co2 1959Figure 3. Theoretical and observed CO2 changes, in parts per million by volume (ppmv). The theoretical total CO2 from emissions (blue line) is what we’d have if there were no exponential decay and all emissions remained airborne. The red line is the observed change in airborne CO2. The amount that is sequestered by various CO2 sinks (violet) is calculated as the total amount put into the air (blue line) minus the observed amount remaining in the air (red line). The black line is the expected change in airborne CO2, calculated as the exponential decay of the total CO2 injected into the atmosphere. The calculation used best-fit values of 59 years as the time constant (tau) and 283 ppmv as the pre-industrial equilibrium level. 

The first thing to notice is that the total amount of CO2 from fossil fuel emissions is much larger than the amount that remains in the atmosphere. The clear inference of this is that various natural sequestration processes have absorbed some but not all of the fossil fuel emissions. Also, the percentage of emissions that are naturally sequestered has remained constant since 1959. About 42% of the amount that is emitted is “sequestered”, that is to say removed from the atmosphere by natural carbon sinks.

Next, as you can see, using an exponential decay analysis gives us an extremely good fit between the theoretical and the observed increase in atmospheric CO2. In fact, the fit is so good that most of the time you can’t even see the red line (observed CO2) under the black line (calculated CO2).

Before I move on, please note that the amount remaining in the atmosphere is not a function of the annual emissions. Instead, it is a function of the total emissions, i.e. it is a function of the running sum of the annual emissions starting at t=0 (blue line).

Now, I got into all of this because against my better judgment I started to watch Dr. Salby’s video that was discussed on WUWT here. The very first argument that Dr. Salby makes involves the following two graphs:

Salby fossil fuel emissionFigure 4. Dr. Salby’s first figure, showing the annual global emissions of carbon in gigatonnes per year.

Salby CO2 observedFigure 5. Dr. Salby’s second figure, showing the observed level of CO2 at Mauna Loa.

Note that according to his numbers the trend in emissions increased after 2002, but the CO2 trend is identical before and after 2002. Dr. Salby thinks this difference is very important.

At approximate 4 minutes into the video Dr. Salby comments on this difference with heavy sarcasm, saying:

The growth of fossil fuel emission increased by a factor of 300% … the growth of CO2 didn’t blink. How could this be? Say it ain’t so!

OK, I’ll step up to the plate and say it. It ain’t so, at least it’s not the way Dr. Salby thinks it is, for a few reasons.

First, note that he is comparing the wrong things. Observed CO2 is NOT a function of annual CO2 emissions. It is a function of total emissions, as discussed above and shown in Figure 3. The total amount remaining in the atmosphere at any time is a function of the total amount emitted up to that time. It is NOT a function of the individual annual emissions. So we would not expect the two graphs to have the same shape or the same trends.

Next, we can verify that he is looking at the wrong things by comparing the units used in the two graphics. Consider Figure 4, which has units of gigatonnes of carbon per year. Gigatonnes of carbon (GtC) emitted, and changes in airborne CO2 (parts per million by volume, “ppmv”), are related by the conversion factor of:

2.13 Gigatonnes carbon emitted = 1 ppmv CO2

This means that the units in Figure 4 can be converted from gigatonnes C per year to ppmv per year by simply dividing them by 2.13. So Figure 4 shows ppmv per year. But the units in Figure 5 are NOT the ppmv per year used in Figure 4. Instead, Figure 5 uses simple ppmv. Dr. Salby is not comparing like with like. He’s comparing ppmv of CO2 per year to plain old ppmv of CO2, and that is a meaningless comparison.

He is looking at apples and oranges, and he waxes sarcastic about how other scientists haven’t paid attention to the fact that the two fruits are different … they are different because there is no reason to expect that apples and oranges would be the same. In fact, as Figure 3 shows, the observed CO2 has tracked the total human emissions very, very accurately. In particular, it shows that we do not expect a large trend change in observed CO2 around the year 2000 such as Dr. Salby expects, despite the fact that such a trend change exists in the annual emission data. Instead, the change is reflected in a gradual increase in the trend of the observed (and calculated) CO2 … and the observations are extremely well matched by the calculated values.

The final thing that’s wrong with his charts is that he’s looking at different time periods in his trend comparisons. For the emissions, he’s calculated the trends 1990-2002, and compared that to 2002-2013. But regarding the CO2 levels, he’s calculated the trends over entirely different periods, 1995-2002 and 2002-2014. Bad scientist, no cookies. You can’t pick two different periods to compare like that.

In summary? Well, the summary is short … Dr. Salby appears to not understand the relationship between fossil fuel carbon emissions and CO2.

That would be bad enough, but from there it just gets worse. Starting at about 31 minutes into the video Dr. Salby makes much of the fact that the 14C (“carbon-14”) isotope produced by the atomic bomb tests decayed exponentially (agreeing with what I discussed above) with a fairly short time constant tau of about nine years or so.

Salby 14c decayFigure 6. Dr. Salby demonstrates that airborne residence time constant tau for CO2 is around 8.6 years. “NTBT” is the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty.

Regarding this graph, Dr. Salby says that it is a result of exponential decay. He goes on to say that “Exponential decay means that the decay of CO2 is proportional to the abundance of CO2,” and I can only agree.

So far so good … but then Dr. Salby does something astounding. He graphs the 14C airborne residence time data up on the same graph as the “Bern Model” of CO2 pulse decay, says that they both show “Absorption of CO2”, and claims that the 14C isotope data definitively shows that the Bern model is wrong …

salby bern model vs 14CFigure 7. Dr. Salby’s figure showing both the “Bern Model” of the decay of a pulse of CO2 (violet line), along the same data shown in Figure 6 for the airborne residence time of CO2 (blue line, green data points).

To reiterate, Dr. Salby says that the 14C bomb test (blue line identified as “Real World”) clearly shows that the Bern Model is wrong (violet line identified as “Model World”).

But as before, in Figure 8 Dr. Salby is again comparing apples and oranges. The 14C bomb test data (blue line) shows how long an individual CO2 molecule stays in the air. Note that this is a steady-state process, with individual CO2 molecules constantly being emitted from somewhere, staying airborne in the atmosphere with a time constant tau of around 8 years, and then being re-absorbed somewhere else in the carbon cycle. This is called the “airborne residence time” of CO2. It is the time an average CO2 molecule stays aloft before being re-absorbed.

But the airborne residence time (blue line) is very, very different from what the Bern Model (violet line) is estimating. The Bern Model is estimating how long it takes an entire pulse of additional CO2 to decay back to equilibrium concentration levels. This is NOT how long a CO2 molecule stays aloft. Instead, the Bern Model is estimating how long the increased atmospheric concentration from a pulse of injected CO2 takes to decay back to pre-pulse conditions. Let me summarize:

Airborne residence time (bomb test data): how long an individual CO2 molecule stays in the air.

Pulse decay time (Bern Model):  how long the increased atmospheric concentration from a pulse of injected CO2 takes to decay back to pre-pulse conditions.

So again Dr. Salby is conflating two very different measurements—airborne residence time on the one hand (blue line), and CO2 post-pulse concentration decay time on the other hand (violet line). It is meaningless to display them on the same graph. The 14C bomb test data neither supports nor falsifies the Bern Model. The 14C data says nothing about the Bern Model, because they are measuring entirely different things.

I was going to force myself to watch more of the video of his talk. But when I got that far into Dr. Salby’s video, I simply couldn’t continue. His opening move is to compare ppmv per year to plain ppmv, and get all snarky about how he’s the only one noticing that they are different. He follows that up by not knowing the difference between airborne residence time and pulse decay time.

Sorry, but after all of that good fun I’m not much interested in his other claims. Sadly, Dr. Salby has proven to me that regarding this particular subject he doesn’t understand what he’s talking about. I do know he wrote a text on Atmospheric Physics, so he’s nobody’s fool … but in this case he’s way over his head.

Best regards to each of you on this fine spring evening,

w.

For Clarity: If you disagree with something, please quote the exact words you disagree with. That will allow everyone to understand the exact nature of your disagreement.

Math Note: The theoretical total CO2 from emissions is calculated using the relationship 1 ppmv = 2.13 gigatonnes of carbon emitted.

Also, we only have observational data on CO2 concentrations since 1959. This means that the time constant calculated in Figure 3 is by no means definitive. It also means that the data is too short to reliably distinguish between e.g. the Bern Model (a fat-tailed exponential decay) and the simple single exponential decay model I used in Figure 3.

Data and Code: I’ve put the R code and functions, the NOAA Monthly CO2 data (.CSV), and the annual fossil fuel carbon emissions data (.TXT) in a small zipped folder entitled “Salby Analysis Folder” (20 kb)

[Update]: Some commenters have said that I should have looked at an alternate measure. They said instead of looking at atmospheric CO2 versus the cumulative sum of annual emissions, I should show annual change in atmospheric CO2 versus annual emissions. We are nothing if not a full service website, so here is that Figure.

scatterplot emissions vs delta atmospheric co2

As you can see, this shows that it is a noisy system. Despite that, however, there is reasonably good and strongly statistically significant correlation between emissions and the change in atmospheric CO2. I note also that this method gives about the same numbers for the airborne fraction that I got from my analysis upthread.

w.

5 1 vote
Article Rating

Discover more from Watts Up With That?

Subscribe to get the latest posts sent to your email.

559 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
jonesingforozone
April 20, 2015 3:05 am

Thank you, Willis.
The 14C bomb dispersed quickly through the atmosphere and into the ocean due to nearly zero partial pressure with respect to the tagged 14C.
This would be true of any gas that one could tag. A bomb of the tagged mixture will have a half life of ~8.6 years when released in an untagged environment, according to the 14C bomb test.
The Bern Graph, on the other hand, takes for granted a 280ppm floor, as though rock formation would cease.

Mike
April 20, 2015 3:19 am

I’m not sure that Salby’s fit to C14 is that accurate ( he does not show his residual and I don’t think it would be very good ) , though accuracy is not essential to his point.comment image
This models seems to give a very close fit, though Pettersson says it should not be fitted directly to the C14 ratio anyway.
It is interesting that the ratio of the magnitudes of the short and long exponentials in this model is exactly the same as Salby’s 8.64 time const. Mathematical coincidence?

April 20, 2015 3:24 am

Did anyone catch the source of the “tau=59.59470829” in Mr. Eschenbach’s code?

Mike
Reply to  Joe Born
April 20, 2015 4:32 am

I understood it was his own fit but I’m not sure he said explicitly what was fitted to what.

Reply to  Mike
April 20, 2015 6:27 am

Thanks. Yes, the high number of decimal places suggests that the computer spit it out of some operation, but it would be nice to see what that operation was.

Mike
Reply to  Joe Born
April 20, 2015 4:48 am

The trouble with this is that emissions have not had a constant rate of growth since the pre-industrial period.
It is always possible to fit an exponential to a slightly curved segment of line like cumulative CO2 but with that length of data and very light curvature the uncertainty will be large. Also the pre-ind level is uncertain and will change the fit.
http://climategrog.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/co2-log-rise.png
The problem is that the integrated cumulative sum removes most of the detail that may enable us to analyse the system. That is why the rate of change stuff I linked above may be more informative.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 20, 2015 2:08 pm

Thanks a lot. I’d thought it was something like that, but I hate to guess.

Shub Niggurath
April 20, 2015 4:13 am

Superficially written. Neither clarifies nor clearly rebuts.

William Astley
April 20, 2015 4:56 am

In reply to:
Willis Eschenbach
Willis,
Salby does total mass balance of CO2 in the atmosphere and states that he does total mass balance.
Salby analysis and conclusion is correct. It appears you did not understand Salby’s presentation and it appears you bring emotion into scientific analysis which is purposeless and clouds your summary/blocks your understanding of the issues/science.
The sum of all CO2 inputs in the atmosphere (anthropogenic is only one and volcanic eruptions are not the major source of natural CO2) minus the total sinks of CO2 in the atmosphere equals rise of CO2 in the atmosphere. That is mass balance.
As Salby correctly states the only input of CO2 into the atmosphere which we know with certainty is anthropogenic CO2. There is an immense amount of CO2 and CH4 that is flowing into the atmosphere from the deep earth. For example CH4 levels in the atmosphere mysteriously doubled for no physical reason and then stopped rising.
As Salby’s notes anthropogenic CO2 continues to increase in rate post 2002 yet the rate of rise of atmosphere CO2 does not increase. That is a fact a paradox.
Salby does a calculation of the maximum possible change in sink rate base and notes sink rate is proportional to total atmospheric CO2 not the change in atmosphere CO2.
He finds the maximum possible bound on the change sink rate does not explain the observation that post 2002 the rate of increase in atmospheric CO2 is constant yet the is a rise in total anthropogenic CO2.
The CO2 sinks do not increase the percentage of CO2 that is sequestered when total atmospheric CO2 increases with the exception of plants which thrive when atmospheric CO2 increase.
The major source of new CO2 into the atmosphere is deep core CH4 that is released into the biosphere as CH4, CO2 (micro organism eat the CH4), and liquid petroleum.
The key to solving the CO2 puzzle is to read and understand the late Nobel Prize winning astrophysicist book The Deep Hot Biosphere: The Myth of Fossil Fuels). It appears you have not read that book or the related papers. I am working on summary of Gold theory and book for this forum. I will include an explanation of Salby theory and explain the related mechanisms.
http://www.amazon.com/Deep-Hot-Biosphere-Fossil-Fuels/dp/0387952535/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1429530650&sr=1-2&keywords=Deep+HOt+Biosphere+The+Myth+of+Fossil+Fuels
Atmospheric CH4 is about to fall and atmospheric CO2 is about to fall. I say that because I understand physically what is happening.
It appears you also did not listen to or understand Salby’s previous video which discusses irreversible sinks of CO2 verses movement of CO2 into the surface ocean which is reversible. The IPCC Bern CO2 model assumes there is very little exchange of deep ocean water with surface ocean water. The C14 carbon from the surface ocean water under the Bern assumption should therefore linger. It does not which is one of the many observations that supports the assertion the Bern model is incorrect and the half life of CO2 in the atmosphere is between 3 and 7 years.
Regards,
William

Mike
Reply to  William Astley
April 20, 2015 5:17 am

“The key to solving the CO2 puzzle is to read and understand the late Nobel Prize winning astrophysicist book The Deep Hot Biosphere”
What Nobel Prize did he get ? Was he a participating author of an IPCC report ?!

Reply to  Mike
April 20, 2015 10:07 am

Perhaps he is a citizen of EU, they won the peace price.
/Jan

William Astley
Reply to  Mike
April 20, 2015 3:21 pm

The Nobel committee will need to rescind the award made to the IPCC as the entire IPCC scientific premise is incorrect.

Reply to  William Astley
April 20, 2015 6:38 am

It doesn’t do anything for the reputation of an outstanding scientist to make false claims about his being a Nobel laureate.

Reply to  Phil.
April 20, 2015 7:45 am

Totally. Plus it dilutes the accomplishment of those of us who actually received one.

Reply to  William Astley
April 20, 2015 9:51 am

Some rain on your abiotic petroleum parade. Its ‘not even wrong’. Gold’s book is crackpot speculation. The Swedish experiment based on Gold found only trace oil in pump contaminated drilling mud. The Russian claims about the Ukraine deposits are bad geology. Those reservoirs are sourced from standard marine shales overthrust by fractured basement rock.
There is obviously abiotic methane. It exists in the outer solar system (Titan), but apparently not the inner solar systems rocky planets. It is produced on Earth by serpentization (mineral hydration) of ultramafic rock catalyzed by iron. That been known for decades, and at least 7 European seeps have been identified. Very recently, the first meaningful accumulation of such abiotic methane was discovered in methane clathrate on the Framm Strait seabed.
But not petroleum.

Catherine Ronconi
Reply to  ristvan
April 20, 2015 12:11 pm

Rud,
There most certainly is abiotic methane on the rocky inner planets. You yourself comment on Earth’s abiotic methane. Methane on Mars might be biotic, but probably isn’t. Mercury’s tenuous atmosphere contains trace amounts of methane, almost certainly abiotic. Venus’ atmosphere is loaded with the stuff, presumably abiotic.

Catherine Ronconi
Reply to  ristvan
April 20, 2015 12:33 pm

And, while not a planet, lunar astronauts detected methane in the Moon’s thin atmosphere as well.

Bernie Hutchins
Reply to  ristvan
April 20, 2015 12:48 pm

Rud –
According to Gold’s book “Deep Hot Biosphere” they pumped up 12 tons of oil (“looking like ordinary crude oil” – Danish Geological Survey) along with 15 tons of fine-grained magnetite. The significance of the magnetite is FIRST of all that Gold considered it to have been produced by microbes who reduced it from another iron oxide. SECOND it was the magnetite “paste” that clogged up the well making further drilling impossible. It’s fine with me if you yourself choose to consider 12 tons a mere “trace” if you say exactly that. But I would also inquire if you knew WHY they stopped drilling (the magnetite). Yes, it was not practical to continue. But that a far different issue and does not prove anything about whether it was or was not there.
Now I have asked you on two other threads about this “trace” issue and you ignored the question.

Catherine Ronconi
Reply to  ristvan
April 20, 2015 1:08 pm

Bernie,
It also seems to me that some commenters fail to distinguish Gold’s argument from that of present Russian and Ukrainian scientists who advocate abiotic oil through on-going geochemical processes. Gold in fact advocated residual primordial abiotic oil, delivered to earth by meteors and comets, plus biotic contribution from deep microbes feeding on this food source, then themselves serving as organic feedstock for further biotic production of long-chain hydrocarbons.
IIRC Gold’s argument.

Bernie Hutchins
Reply to  ristvan
April 20, 2015 1:27 pm

Reply to Catherine Ronconi April 20, 2015 at 1:08 pm
Thanks – Quite right. Tommy started with a “Deep Earth” hypothesis for primordial GAS (methane). Then he added life to the upwelling methane: the “Deep Hot BIOSPHERE” . Famously turning thinking around: not life reworked by geology, but geology reworked by life (microbes deep in the rocks).
And he sure could ask the inconvenient questions about conventional wisdom. He could be wrong – but “crackpot” is a very unfortunate term used by some of his critics.

Catherine Ronconi
Reply to  ristvan
April 20, 2015 1:48 pm

Bernie,
Life has certainly reworked the atmosphere and hydrosphere, so why not the lithosphere as well? Or reworked it in this way, since clearly life has already affected the lithosphere in other ways.

Reply to  ristvan
April 20, 2015 2:17 pm

Bernie, since you seem worked up and thinking I am evasive on this. So I just wasted an hour fact checking from press and scientific commentary at the time of the Swedish experiment. Things you can still do to educate yourself on the falsity of abiotic oil (but not abiotic methane).
First, Gold persuaded the Swedish well investors that they would find commercial amounts of methane, not petroleum. They obviously didn’t.
Second, although there are (interestingly) magnetite producing bacteria, their magnetite is nanoparticle sized and could not jam a drill bit. Almost all granites contain either magnetite (iron) or ilmenite (iron/titanium) trace mineralization. Finding ‘fine grained’ magnetite does not mean it came from bacterial sources–especially when drilling granite.
Third, either you misread Gold’s book or in it he misrepresented what was brought up from the bottom of the hole. It was 12 tons of sludge (drill cuttings unavoidably mixed with drilling mud) in which there was some trace oil. It was not 12 tons of oil. See for example http://www.science-frontiers. They reported before and after in #69 and #79. Even the drillers on site thought it came from pump leaks into the drill mud.
Gold shifted his story over time from primordial methane to abiotic oil after this exploit. He also then asserted that undeniable biomakers in oil just means abiotic oil sources were contaminated by deep dwelling microbes. Shape shifting an original theory that much is itself prima facie evidence the theory is wrong.
Don’t take the book at face value. That is like taking AR4 at face value. Big mistake.

Bernie Hutchins
Reply to  ristvan
April 20, 2015 2:53 pm

Replying to ristvan April 20, 2015 at 2:17 pm
(1) I did NOT misread Gold. See pages 120-121. He said 12 tons of crude oil as verified by the Danish Geological Survey. Perhaps you should read the book. Heck – I have YOUR book!
(2) Your link to science-frontiers goes NOWHERE. It says: “Sorry, We could not find http://www.science-frontiers“. So you leave us out in the cold.

MRW
Reply to  ristvan
April 21, 2015 7:06 am

Dr. J.F. Kenney, who worked in Russia under Soviet rule with Russian scientists at the Russian Academy of Sciences, wrote this about Thomas Gold:

Sometime during the late 1970’s, a British-American, one-time astronomer named Thomas Gold discovered the modern Russian-Ukrainian theory of deep, abiotic petroleum origins. Such was not difficult to do, for there are many thousands of articles, monographs, and books published in the mainstream Russian scientific press on modern Russian petroleum science. Gold could read the Russian language fluently.
In 1979, Gold began publishing the modern Russian-Ukrainian theory of petroleum origins, as if such were his own ideas and without giving credit to the Russian (then, Soviet) petroleum scientists from whom he had taken the material. Gold tried to alter the modern Russian-Ukrainian theory of deep, abiotic petroleum origins with notions of his own in order to conceal its provenance. He gave his “ideas” the (very misleading) name the “deep gas theory.”
Worse yet, Gold’s alterations of modern Russian petroleum science were utterly wrong. Specifically, Gold’s claims that there exist large quantities of natural gas (methane) in the Earth at depths of its mantle are completely wrong. Such claims are upside-down and backwards. At the pressures of the mantle, methane is unstable, and the hydrogen-carbon system there evolves the entire suite of heavier hydrocarbons found in natural petroleum, in the Planck-type distribution which characterizes natural petroleum. Methane at pressures of the mantle of the Earth will decompose to evolve octane, diesel oil, heavy lubricating oils, alkylbenzenes, and the compounds found in natural petroleum. [These properties of the hydrogen-carbon system have been described at greater length and rigor in a recent article in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.1] Regrettably, Gold was as ignorant of statistical thermodynamics as he was of ethics.

The full discussion with cites is here: http://www.gasresources.net/plagiarism%28overview%29.htm

Steve P
Reply to  ristvan
April 22, 2015 6:29 am

MRW April 21, 2015 at 7:06 am
Thank you for setting the record straight vis-a-vis Gold and the Russians.
~
There are several interesting sub-threads that have developed from Willis’s essay, but it takes longer to find them in the tangle of comments, than to read or reply.
Previously, the host had requested that we give the new format a try. Speaking for myself only, I have given it a try, and it doesn’t work.
I would urge the host to reconsider the ‘reply’ format.
Thanks

Mike
April 20, 2015 5:09 am

Willian: “Salby does a calculation of the maximum possible change in sink rate base and notes sink rate is proportional to total atmospheric CO2 not the change in atmosphere CO2.”
That was one of the first question marks his presentation raised for me , where he pulled that from. This is typical of his style which you can go unnoticed in a slide presentation but would be a blatant omission is a paper. It’s long over due that he puts what he has on paper and stops relying of videos of slides.
Since you consider that you understand his work, maybe you can explain how he derived that.
Thanks.

TonyL
April 20, 2015 5:26 am

Hello Willis, love your posts.
You wrote:
“Exponential decay also describes what happens when a system which is at some kind of equilibrium is disturbed from that equilibrium. The system doesn’t return to equilibrium all at once. Instead, each year it moves a certain percentage of the remaining distance to equilibrium.”
Not true at all.
Exponential decay is an example of First Order Kinetics. Your equilibrium case is an example of Approach To Equilibrium kinetics. They are NOT the same. You can do a First Order kinetics analysis on an Approach to equilibrium system and get a pretty good match for two or three half-lives, but after that, the modeled decay is way to fast. After 5 or so half-lives, the discrepancies can get pretty ugly. The math of Approach To Equilibrium is rather more complex and not as well known, so people tend to use First Order instead. As I mentioned, this is usually at least serviceable for two or three half-lives, but then trouble starts.
(Imagine a classroom of physics undergraduates, told to consider a transistor as a linear device, “over a short range”. They are all pumping their fists in the air, chanting in unison “TOO THE FIRST ORDER, TOO THE FIRST ORDER”. You get the idea.)
Now consider:
First Order kinetics describes the reaction A -> B, simple enough. There is no reverse reaction.
Approach to Equilibrium describes the system A -> B and B -> A. There is the reverse reaction.
If you start with all A, at first it looks like First Order, because the reverse reaction is too small to be significant. Over time, the reverse reaction, B -> A grows significant, and First Order no longer works well. At the end, we have equilibrium, where the rates of A -> B and B -> A are equal . And that is a fundamental definition of equilibrium.
Now consider CO2 absorption by the oceans. I do not think we should imply (by our mathematical treatment) that out-gassing is insignificant. I think there is much mischief about CO2 “residence times” because of this.
Cheers.

MikeB
Reply to  TonyL
April 20, 2015 5:42 am

If the physics graduates were chanting in unison “TOO THE FIRST ORDER, TOO THE FIRST ORDER”, I would recommend they did a course in English first.

TonyL
Reply to  MikeB
April 20, 2015 5:49 am

They are undergrads, what do you expect?

Steve P
Reply to  MikeB
April 20, 2015 6:20 am

Don’t confuse the hypothetical chanters with the writer. He who puts words in the mouths of others must spell them correctly too.

Mike
April 20, 2015 5:37 am

Thanks Tony. That seems to echo what I said above, this C14 curve is not the single molecule residence time.
Gosta Pettersson discusses reversible / non-reversible reactions in his articles:
http://www.false-alarm.net/

TonyL
Reply to  Mike
April 20, 2015 8:58 am

Looks interesting. I will check them out.
Thanks for the tip.

Reply to  Mike
April 25, 2015 9:31 am

Mike, the 14C curve is not the same as the 12C/13C decay curve for an excess injection of fossil fuels either:
What goes into the deep oceans was the isotopic composition of 1960 at the peak of the bomb spike and some extra 12/13C. What returns is the composition of ~1000 years before: somewhat lower in quantity than what goes into the deep, but with a lot less 14C of long before the peak.
That makes that the 14C curve is less fast than the residence time, nut still a lot faster than the decay rate of an excess 12/13CO2 injection above equilibrium…

Scott
April 20, 2015 5:53 am

I would really be interested in Mr. Eschenbach’s contacting Dr. Salby and discussing with him his apparent disagreements. Then I’d like to see a distillation of that conversation for those of us who are not at the pinnacle of understanding every last detail. I’d also be interested to see what anyone who is versed in this subject to comment themselves (i.e.: William Astley who brought up some interesting points).
Hopefully this can be done. It’s what the debate (yes, I said that dirty word) in badly in need of……

Mike
Reply to  Scott
April 20, 2015 6:09 am

What is needed is for Salby to put his hypothesis down on paper and stop messing around with video presentations.
Then everyone can have a look and see whether there’s a valid point being made.
I’m sick of doing freeze frame on a fuzzy video of a slide in a presentation that does not include the derivation of some key aspects. I don’t see that Willis or anyone else needs to be involved in that process. He just needs to stop messing around and publish. Even if it’s on arxiv.org or something.

Scott
Reply to  Mike
April 20, 2015 9:28 am

I remember something in Dr. Salby’s video about “not publishing” till his data was released?
Who could keep “his” data from him? Does he not have copies of it?

Catherine Ronconi
Reply to  Mike
April 20, 2015 12:13 pm

Scott,
The Australian university which fired him “owns” his data and won’t let him have it.

RERT
April 20, 2015 5:59 am

WIllis – How does your time constant of 59 years correspond to the Bern Model? If I recall correctly, the Bern Model assumes some fraction of emissions stays in the air permanently. Can you fit the actual data with the Bern Model? The Bern model does appear to be the decay rate of a pulse of enhanced concentration, per your fit.
R.

RERT
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 22, 2015 11:13 am

If this from Google is a good source http://unfccc.int/resource/brazil/carbon.html, then subject to me understanding correctly the time constants are 2.6, 18, 171 and infinite, as of TAR. (infinite I think because a(0) is non-zero).
Your response raises the question as to how these parameters are fitted if there is not enough data to distinguish from a much simpler model. Either someone has better data (?unlikely?) or most of these parameters are not statistically significant. Given there are 7 of them, hardly a surprise I guess!
R.

halftiderock
April 20, 2015 6:06 am

I question the assertion that the total global CO2 input is a known. The Carbon Satellite preliminary indicates that natural sources are significantly higher than have been theorized. In addition the interpretation of the Keeler curve in terms of anthropogenic contribution is interesting but most likely flawed since the atmospheric CO2 increase is +/- linear and there is a difference between correlation and causation particularly if the larger sources are imperfectly understood. You can tune anything that reflects your bias. Note the immediate divergence between the IPCC models and reality when the models shifted from hindcasting to prediction. CO2 lags temperature in geologic time. Therefor it can not be the cause. The weeds are interesting and inform but maintaining a 30,000 foot view is essential.

TonyL
April 20, 2015 6:19 am

As I look at it, Figure 7 actually is very interesting. It compares the 14C curve and the Bern model, which seem to be different. On second look, the 14C curve is First Order kinetics for the uptake of CO2 by the oceans. This is simply the A -> B forward reaction, without any contribution from the reverse reaction. The Bern curve shows the sum of the forward and reverse reactions together.
The difference between the two curves provides a cautionary tale about how you model things, and how you check your starting assumptions.

Mike
Reply to  TonyL
April 20, 2015 7:01 am

I suggest you look at Pettersson’s papers. He is chemist and understands reversible reactions and explicitly deals with this in his work. His paper 5 shows Bern and C14 and is not very different from Salby’s graph, except that it stops around y2k.
You seem to be talking the same language, so it should make sense to you.
http://www.false-alarm.net/

Bill Illis
April 20, 2015 6:24 am

I agree with what Willis said here. Salby is missing some of the key issues.
My own view is that there is a natural equilibrium level of CO2 of around 270 to 280 ppm. CO2 has been around that level since C4 grasses evolved in the few million years leading up to 24 million years ago. The evolution of C4 grasses increased the Carbon balance held in vegetation because C4 grasses could now grow in dry areas where all the remaining C3 bushes, trees, plants and (C3) grasses couldn’t grow before. CO2 fell to 280 ppm, for perhaps the very first time, 24 million years ago.
http://s10.postimg.org/pc7ggoc6h/CO2_Last_40_Mys.png
In the ice ages, CO2 declines with temperature by about 18 ppm per 1.0C as the oceans absorb more CO2 but also because the vegetation on the planet dies back significantly and there is less annual Carbon cycle from vegetation occuring. CO2 has been as low as 185 ppm which means trees and bushes could only grow where there is very high rainfall such as the tropical rainforests. in the ice ages, Africa’s rainforests decline to just a few small areas. The Amazon rainforest declines by two-thirds. For some reason, probably higher rainfall, the US southeast and Indonesia seem to hold onto to their trees. The rest of the planet is either grassland, desert or tundra or glacial ice.
At the natural equilibrium level of CO2 in a non-glacial cycle, of 280 ppm, if CO2 rises above that level, vegetation gets more active and CO2 is drawn back-down to 280 ppm. If CO2 falls, vegetation gets less active and CO2 goes back up.
Net absorption of CO2 by natural processes as a percent of CO2 above 280 ppm going back to 1750 when human emissions started to actually matter. The natural processes completely overwhelmed our emissions until the 1950s. (Landuse and forest-clearing by early civilizations is a joke. The natural processes are many times higher than humans clearing forests. Orders of magnitude.)
http://s29.postimg.org/3s31k2iuf/Net_Excess_CO2_Absorption_1750_2014.png
Now let’s compare the natural absorption rates compared to human emissions. In the 1940s, CO2 levels actually fell. The natural sinks were more than 100% of our emissions. Before 1900, they were orders of magnitude higher than human emission rates.
Since about 1950, the natural absorption rate has been around 50%. As Willis noted, it is probably closer to 42% or 45% but it is actually hard to tell because there are some uncertainties here. But this is a fluke. It is more the total amount of CO2 in the atmosphere that governs net absorption by natural processes, not our annual emissions.
http://s29.postimg.org/rlmap0mp3/Net_Human_CO2_Absorption_1900_2014.png
Since Plants, Ocean, and Soils are absorbing about 1.7% per year of the excess CO2 above the equilibrium 280 ppm right now (a rate which appears to be increasing slightly), if we stopped emitting today, it would take about 155 years to get back down to 285 ppm (and then a few more decades for 280 ppm).
http://s29.postimg.org/x7rjvexuv/CO2_Residency_Time_1750_2170.png

Reply to  Bill Illis
April 20, 2015 6:38 am

Thanks a lot for that background. Nuggets like that are the reason I visit this site.
Is there some source from which we could easily obtain those plots’ data?
Also: “Plants, Ocean, and Soils are absorbing about 1.7% per year of the excess CO2 above the equilibrium 280 ppm right now (a rate which appears to be increasing slightly).” How do we know that?

Phlogiston
Reply to  Bill Illis
April 20, 2015 6:40 am

Illuminating as always, thanks. So Antarctica gave rise to C4 plants, who knew? Who cared? Well I do.
I’m sad but at the same time proud to be alive with the last generation of scientists.

bw
Reply to  Bill Illis
April 20, 2015 8:29 am

Yes. The physicists underestimate the biology. C4 is a big evolutionary step. That includes that CAM and other structures improving the extraction of CO2/transpiriation in “dry” environments. Plants have been evolving for more than 24 million years, or even the entire cenozoic. The entire global biogeochemical carbon cycle has been evolving for hundreds of millions of years. Earth’s atmosphere today is entirely of biological origin (except Argon).
As for the amount of fossil fuel CO2 in the atmosphere, various approaches (eg. Segalstad) show that it is about 15 to 25 ppm. One approach (https://retiredresearcher.wordpress.com/) see figure 16 shows about 45 ppm. Adding CO2 to the atmosphere is entirely beneficial. A few thousand ppm would be great.
CO2 never “accumulates” in the atmosphere, from any source. Planetary biology guarantees that.

Reply to  bw
April 20, 2015 12:50 pm

bw,
The residual number of “human” CO2 molecules depend of the residence time which is ~5 years and is currently about 9%.
The residual mass of CO2 above equilibrium is 95% caused by human emissions as the decay rate of any extra injection of CO2 is over 50 years.
Two different decay rates without much connection between each other.

Latitude
Reply to  Bill Illis
April 20, 2015 8:53 am

Bill, I agree 100% with you….
I don’t like the word “equilibrium” though…..while being accurate, it’s not descriptive
“Limiting” would be the word that better describes it.

David L. Hagen
April 20, 2015 6:27 am

Willis
I affirm the comments above by William Astley. Salby is an expert analytical mathematician. See Murry Salby, (2012) Physics of the Atmosphere and Climate
Salby develops the equations later in the presentation for a technical presentation level.
On C14, suggest distinguishing between the residence time in the mixed surface layer vs the deep/rest of the ocean.

Reply to  David L. Hagen
April 20, 2015 12:54 pm

David,
Salby made the same mistake as many before him: the e-fold decay rate of the 14C bomb spike is way shorter that the decay rate of an extra injection of CO2 in the atmosphere: what returns out of the deep oceans is much less 14C than what goes into the deep oceans, while for 12CO2 that still is near the same amount…

David L. Hagen
Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
April 20, 2015 6:34 pm

Willis Eschenbach and Ferdinand Engelbeen
Re: “He follows that up by not knowing the difference between airborne residence time and pulse decay time.”
Salby may not be presenting it well, but I believe he has gone far deeper into the equations and details that you give him credit for.
You argue “Airborne residence time (bomb test data): how long an individual CO2 molecule stays in the air.”
The bomb test data is NOT “an individual CO2 molecule” but a specific though very small (“infinitesimal”) pulse of CO2 with C14, other than it can be explicitly tracked. How is that infinetismal pulse that much different from a larger pulse under the Bern model? 0.5% does not make that much difference in total CO2.
Mathematically, the consequent absorption rate is very similar.
IF the ocean were under equilibrium BEFORE the pulse, why should the emission rates after be any different from the base absorption rate BEFORE the pulse?
Under his Cross-Correlation argument at 25:50 etc. Salby uses the C14 concentration decay rate to calculate the CO2 absorption rate is proportional to the abundance of CO2. ~ 30:20”-40”
From the bomb data C14 decay rate and his cross correlation analysis, I understand Salby to show the major difference from the Bern model is that the CO2 EMISSION rate is not constant, but varies with temperature.
Salby develops the atmospheric conservation equation to then find:

CO2 growth rate = Emissions rate (proportional to temperature) – absorption rate (proportional to CO2).

Note that he finds a correlation of 0.82 for changes of CO2 with temperature and a correlation of 0.93 when including moisture etc.
See: Janice Moore Notes on Dr. Murry Salby, London 2015 Lecture.
C14 section min 26:24 – 46.
Salby goes beyond your constant CO2 addition model to form a model of an increasing trend of CO2 emissions. Janice notes:

”35:25 Equilibrium level of human CO2 (equation for when emission = absorption) . . .
“After 2002, 300% increase in CO2 per year matched by absorption rate, eventually they will be in equilibrium differing only by a constant (two parallel lines) – 37:30 — net emission then becomes a constant, thus, CO2 growth (in abundance) is constant, increasing linearly like emission.”

What am I missing from your / Salby’s arguments from my rapid reading/listening?

Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
April 21, 2015 12:43 am

David,
As human emissions are about twice the increase in the atmosphere and steadily increasing, the variability in the increase is not in the temperature dependency of the source rate but in the net sink rate.
The correlation between the variability of temperature and CO2 increase rate shows that temperature variability is responsible for the variability around the trend, but says next to nothing about the cause of the trend, as human emissions are increasing rather monotonically without any measurable variability in the atmosphere and by taking the derivatives, you have effectively removed the trend…

Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
April 22, 2015 5:21 am

David L. Hagen April 20, 2015 at 6:34 pm
CO2 growth rate = Emissions rate (proportional to temperature) – absorption rate (proportional to CO2).
Note that he finds a correlation of 0.82 for changes of CO2 with temperature and a correlation of 0.93 when including moisture etc.

The problem with Salby’s balance equation is that he assumes that the temperature dependence is only due to the source terms, this is wrong. Both the absorption rate and the emission rate from the environment are dependent on both pCO2 and T, by not including the proper dependence he forces the result that he obtained.
The proper equation is:
d[CO2]/dt = Fossil Fuel emissions + Sources(CO2,T) – Sinks(CO2,T)
This balance equation is true at all timescales.

Bart
Reply to  David L. Hagen
April 20, 2015 7:34 pm

Indeed, David. Anyone who actually reads Salby’s work and is capable of understanding it can see very clearly that the man is brilliant, and thoroughly immersed in his subject matter. The people casually lobbing potshots at him have no such demonstrated skill. It would be funny if it weren’t so annoying.

Reply to  Bart
April 21, 2015 12:47 am

Bart,
Dr. Salby is brilliant in his own field, but out of his knowledge on the increase of CO2 in the atmosphere.
I have read what he said about CO2 in ice cores (not repeated in this lecture anymore). That was simply physically impossible and would imply the death of all vegetation on earth during glacial periods…

Bart
Reply to  Bart
April 21, 2015 8:27 am

Ferdinand, you are not an ice core expert. You are just a guy who has read a few things about them, and internalized certain narratives about them.

Reply to  Bart
April 22, 2015 12:28 pm

Bart,
I am not an ice core expert, but I know something about diffusion: if someone says that there is diffusion in ice cores which decimated the original peak values, that implies that the lowest values measured today would be a lot lower than measured at the original inclusion. Which is already problematic for most (C3) plants at the low levels found in the last glacial period.
As diffusion only stops when all levels are equal, finding similar peak levels each period 100,000 years back in time, implies even larger peaks in the past, which implies below zero CO2 values during the older glacial periods…
Salby’s comment on ice cores was not repeated in his last speech in London…

Bart
Reply to  Bart
April 22, 2015 1:24 pm

“…if someone says that there is diffusion in ice cores which decimated the original peak values, that implies that the lowest values measured today would be a lot lower than measured at the original inclusion.”
Not necessarily. It depends on the duration. As an analogy, suppose you had 100 buckets with marbles in them. Buckets 1 through 99 have 20 marbles apiece, and bucket 100 has 120 marbles.
Over time, you take a marble out of the bucket with the most in it, and distribute it uniformly into the other buckets. After a very long amount of time, you have 21 marbles in each bucket. Your highest high has decreased sixfold, but your lowest has only increased 5%.

Reply to  Bart
April 22, 2015 2:19 pm

Bart,
Your analogy is right, but the ice core figures are much more different. According to Salby, the measured peaks were a factor 10 (in another video a factor 15) underestimated due to migration.
The measured CO2 levels during interglacials are around 300 ppmv during ~10,000 years
The measured CO2 levels during glacials are around 180 ppmv during ~90,000 years
The original CO2 levels during interglacials according to Salby were 3000 ppmv. Thus 2700 ppmv was distributed over 9 times more years, that is 300 ppmv extra which is included in the 180 ppmv found, thus the original levels in the glacial periods were negative?
I don’t know if I have made an error somewhere, I found 30 ppmv last time I made the calculation… But one of both is a magnitude error.
Nevertheless, the 180 ppmv is already borderline the survival of C3 plants (that is all trees and a lot of other plants), thus any substantial migration means the killing of a lot of plants…
If you go back in time, one can find again a ~300 ppmv peak during the next interglacial back in time. As the decay rate of a peak by diffusion goes proportional to the difference in concentration, a double time needs a four times peak to give the same remaining peak, thus 12000 ppmv, etc…

Bart
Reply to  Bart
April 22, 2015 4:02 pm

You are putting these out as though they were constant levels over, respectively, 10,000 and 90,000 years. But, e.g., it could have peaked at 3000 for a short span within those 10,000 years but been much less the rest of the time.
I don’t know the specifics of this particular analysis. Perhaps there is a puzzle to be solved here. Perhaps there isn’t. Based on his proven track record, I tend to believe Salby knows what he is talking about.
I don’t care enough to dig into it because whatever happened in the unverifiable long ago past isn’t needed to know what is happening right now. And, what is happening right now is that the rate of change of atmospheric CO2 is being driven by a temperature dependent process, and human inputs have little impact.

olliebourque@me.com
Reply to  Bart
April 22, 2015 4:27 pm

” Based on his proven track record,”
..
Like his record with the National Science Foundation?
..
Or his record with Macquarie University?
..
Seriously, is he collecting unemployment these days?

Bart
Reply to  Bart
April 22, 2015 6:08 pm

Seriously, what are you trying to accomplish? Do you think snarky ad hominem persuades anyone beyond your inbred, mouth-breathing, knuckle-dragging, choir of the brain-dead?

olliebourque@me.com
Reply to  Bart
April 22, 2015 6:10 pm

You brought up his “record”

Phlogiston
April 20, 2015 6:30 am

The entire discussion on residence time can be summed up:
Lambda = t1/2 / 0.693
the end.

Owen in GA
Reply to  Phlogiston
April 20, 2015 7:07 am

Funny, my textbooks always had it the other way… ln(2)/t1/2 or approximately 0.693/t1/2

Phlogiston
Reply to  Owen in GA
April 20, 2015 9:22 am

Some textbook you had.
Apply your equation for a moment to the half life of 238uranium, in seconds. Lambda (lifetime) comes out a tad on the short side?
In reality lambda is a bit longer than half life as per my equation above.

Phlogiston
Reply to  Owen in GA
April 20, 2015 9:31 am

Sorry – residence time is tau, not lambda. I think. That’s the misunderstanding. (This was all another life a long time ago.)

c1ue
April 20, 2015 6:37 am

Mr. Eschenbach,
What is the source of your total fossil fuel emissions data? IPCC?
Also, I was wondering if the “Airborne CO2” numbers are specific to human derived emissions or is only a reference to increase in CO2 levels from 1960. What I can see on the internet makes it appear to be the latter.
If so, isn’t this another potential case of apples vs. oranges? The increases in global temperature since 1960 would itself increase CO2 levels from oceanic outgassing – which in turn implies the nearly perfect correlation between emissions and observed CO2 levels to be somewhat spurious. I don’t know the outgassing amount – it is probably in the single digits of CO2 emissions, but is non-trivial since it should consistently shift observed CO2 emissions to be higher than the human CO2 emissions + decay graph. Or in other words, there should be more red visible above the black. Of course, there are all manner of potential errors here: any estimates on human CO2 emissions are bound to have all manner of individual year or systemic errors.
I also recall that natural sinks increase CO2 intake as CO2 levels increase – I presume the decay referred to in your article is a function of this? The way the article is written, it implies some form of atomic phenomenon to atmospheric CO2 processing – if in fact the means is the behavior of said sinks, then a wrong impression is being made (at least to me).

c1ue
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 21, 2015 7:04 am

Mr. Eschenbach,
Thank you for the clarification.
You didn’t comment on my question regarding temperature derived oceanic CO2 intake/output – does this mean you don’t consider this a factor at all?

c1ue
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 22, 2015 10:16 am

Mr. Eschenbach,
Thank you for the information on the outgassing effect.
You might note, however, that I did not dispute your conclusion regarding Salby’s views – merely that your taking of theoretical CO2 decay vs. measured CO2 levels conveys an accuracy that should not be there due to the outgassing. A 10 ppmv delta due to outgassing, subtracted from measured CO2 levels, would show much more difference between the 2 lines in question.

wayne
Reply to  c1ue
April 21, 2015 11:56 am

Hi c1ue…
Careful blindly accepting Willis Eschenbach’s explanation without digging a bit deeper. Biological reactions such as co2 release with temperature increase is more than just abiological out-gassing for we do not live on an abiological planet. Here are a few links to get you going:
http://antoine.frostburg.edu/chem/senese/101/kinetics/faq/temperature-and-reaction-rate.shtml
http://waterfacts.net/Review_of_Temperature_Effects_in_Biological_Treatment-web.pdf
Just to use Arrhenius’ equation to guesstimate how our incredibly complex, chained and interconnected aspects of the entire ocean biology in relation to co2 release could be, as the author in one of those links mentioned… a catastrophic mistake, enzymes get involved steeply increasing in small temperature ranges. Also, it may not be the oceans but the tropics over land that is actual culprit as shown in the first view of co2 concentration over this globe. The high concentrations are over where you would not expect, over the tropic forests that are now flourishing per nasa pictures over the last decades.

Reply to  wayne
April 22, 2015 12:10 pm

wayne,
We have a pretty good idea what the biosphere as a whole does: that is the oxygen balance.
Almost all life on earth produces and use oxygen, opposite to CO2 uptake and release.
Since 1990, the oxygen measurements in the atmosphere can be measured with sufficient accuracy. That shows that the biosphere is a net, increasing producer of oxygen, thus a net, increasing sink for CO2:
http://www.bowdoin.edu/~mbattle/papers_posters_and_talks/BenderGBC2005.pdf
In principle, the oxygen movements of bio-life in the oceans is included in the balance, as in most cases the ocean surface layer is close contact with the atmosphere for CO2 and O2 exchanges.

April 20, 2015 6:59 am

William Astley,
“As Salby’s notes anthropogenic CO2 continues to increase in rate post 2002 yet the rate of rise of atmosphere CO2 does not increase. That is a fact a paradox.”
This is the most important comment on this dubious thread. Mother Nature is not exponential!!! CO2 sources and sinks are quite complex, algae blooms, red tides, all of a sudden billions of jellyfish which weren’t around last year, millions and millions of bison which are not here any more, Stokes’ land use changes strangely confined to Europe, etc.
If Mother Nature were in equilibrium with atmospheric CO2 at around 280 ppm, and we suddenly began injecting CO2, atmospheric CO2 would rise 1-to-1 with our injection. This is not happening, hence, Mother Nature is NOT in equilibrium, and never has been. This Revel buffer business, I am not enough of a chemist to follow, but clearly there is some mechanism at work here which we have not detailed.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 20, 2015 1:30 pm

“The first thing to notice is that the total amount of CO2 from fossil fuel emissions is much larger than the amount that remains in the atmosphere.”
Willis,
Yes, and why is this? The idea that a mysterious new sink, equaling around half of whatever we put into the atmosphere in a year, miraculously appeared simultaneous to the beginning of large-scale CO2 emissions is absurd.
The idea that CO2 exponentially decays, similar to U238 becoming thorium and then lead, is equally absurd. CO2 does not decay! Plants eat it and make sugars, the source of all life on our Big Blue Marble. Increased CO2 does indeed promote extra plant growth, which makes this sink bigger, and then in a year or two these plants decay, making that source bigger.
CO2 does not have a half-life. Isotopes have half-lives. CO2 is a molecule, not an isotope. I look to ocean chemistry as the driver of increased atmospheric CO2, but no one on here is explaining it in any unassailable way.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 20, 2015 2:57 pm

MM, for the record on an interesting but mostly dead thread, Gaseous CO2 most certainly has a half life both in the atmosphere and the oceans. Else coal, oil, natural gas, and corvonate rocks like limestone would not exist.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 21, 2015 5:29 pm

Late reply to this dubious played-out thread, but it is clear that some people are confusing forests and trees. Look, either Mother Nature WAS in equilibrium, or she WAS NOT. Since it is obvious that she was not, all these turgid analyses of half-life, e-folding time, tau, pulses, etc. are missing the point. We have not successfully analyzed the increase in CO2. Why does it not equal our emissions? Why less than half? This means that the entire thing has a huge random component, which is pretty typical of nature.
“CO2 has a half-life,” absurd. CO2 remains CO2 until the mysterious and wonderful quantum reaction known as Photosynthesis occurs. Then it turns into sugars. Some other things eat the sugars, and lots and lots of other things happen. CO2 in the atmosphere does not have a half-life either, as every year our planet looks and acts differently than it did the previous year. Trappers call them “Good Years” and “Bad Years.” Since our emissions are rounding errors in Mother Nature, there is no evidence whatsoever that our emissions correlate with atmospheric CO2. The correlation is so bad there is reason to believe something else, or a lot of something elses, are causing the recent increase.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 21, 2015 9:10 pm

Ristvan,
“I don’t think that word means what you think it means.” “Half-life” refers to radioactive decay and only radioactive decay. Biological processes do not factor into half-life. Mother Nature is not exponential. Yes it is an important question, but, that being said, no one on here has shed much light on the increase in atmospheric CO2. What we do know is, equilibrium has nothing to do with it. All the mathematical procedures to analyze a change in an equilibrated system do not apply here.
What is happening instead? “Anyone? Buehler?”

Reply to  Michael Moon
April 20, 2015 3:02 pm

Michael there is one simple mechanism in work. After few million years all biosphere carbon would be sequestrated in carbonate rocks – limestone. No life existing. CO2 at low level not allowing life. So there must be mechanism to put CO2 back from limestone rocks to the atmosphere.
So actually CO2 and CH4 are seeping back from underground when limestone is cooked in depth with enough pressure, temperature, hydrogen.
If you agree with this, then you must also agree that amount of this CO2 and CH4 outgassing is exactly dependent on amount of limestone actually entering right “cooking zone”. And this is actually dependent on how much life there was let’s say wild guess 100 million years ago.
If low amount limestone area is due to enter “cooking zone” we are heading to ice age human emissions or not.

Alan Robertson
April 20, 2015 7:02 am

Where’s Bart?

April 20, 2015 7:05 am

I agree that Salsby should not have tried correlating CO2 accumulation with emission rates. On the other hand, comparing CO2 accumulation to total emissions is not the solution. You would get similar results comparing CO2 accumulation with global population for the same period. All three factors are covariant.
It is better to compare CO2 accumulation rates with emission rates. My statistical analysis does this. Click on my name and critique my work.

Martin A
April 20, 2015 7:22 am

“The 14C bomb test data (blue line) shows how long an individual CO2 molecule stays in the air.” WE
I assume it shows how long on average an individual CO2 molecule stays in the air.
I’m trying to understand what happens to a mass of CO2 instantaneously injected into the air (a “dollop” to coin a phrase) and to get my head around what is being discussed here.
I’d be grateful if someone would explain (in simple terms, please) if there is a difference between the average time an individual CO2 molecule of a dollop of CO2 stays in the air and the average time all of the molecules of the injected dollop remain in the air.
Is there a difference between this average time and the time for 50% of the injected dollop to have disappeared from the air?

bw
Reply to  Martin A
April 20, 2015 8:56 am

Gosta Pettersson in 2013.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/07/01/the-bombtest-curve-and-its-implications-for-atmospheric-carbon-dioxide-residency-time/
A few people argue that the 14CO2 from the bombs does not represent the remaining atmospheric CO2.
The Bern model is the basis for the IPCC (and Suess/Revelle/Houghton’s) claims that human CO2 accumulates in the atmosphere. The Bern model is not supported by observations.

Reply to  bw
April 22, 2015 11:54 am

bw,
Indeed both are wrong: Gösta Pettersson uses the 14C bomb spike, which is diluted by the deep oceans return and therefore much too fast, while the IPCC uses a model which includes rapid saturation of the deep oceans, for which is currently not the slightest indication… But the Bern model -for now- is nearer to observations than Petterson’s model…

paqyfelyc
Reply to  Martin A
April 20, 2015 9:34 am

pretty simple : suppose that you have 60 liters of water in your body, and an average intake of 2 liters a day.
* the average residence time of a H2O molecule in your body is 2/60 = a month
Now, what happens if, some day, you drink 3 liters instead of 2 ? how long will you have 1 extra liter of water, that is 61 liters, in your body ? will you keep it forever ? piss/sweat it away in half an hour ?
This is the average residence time of the injected dollop. And it can be shorter or longer than the previous 1 month residence time of the average molecule.
Please note that the average residence time will be marginally affected by the 1 litter dollop : no matter what, it will stay pretty much around 1 month

Reply to  Martin A
April 20, 2015 1:14 pm

Martin A:
Here the curve for a 100 GtC injection of fossil CO2 into the atmosphere, where the difference between residence time and decay rate of the total peak is clear:
http://www.ferdinand-engelbeen.be/klimaat/klim_img/fract_level_pulse.jpg
Where FA is the “human” fraction in air, FL in the ocean surface layer, nCA is “natural” CO2 in the atmosphere and tCA total CO2 in the atmosphere.
While all the excess CO2 over the full period is caused by the human injection, the original human molecules are fast exchanged with natural CO2 molecules and the fraction of human CO2 is reduced to zero after a few decades. The peak itself goes down at a much slower rate and after 160 years still is measurable, 100% caused by the human injection…
Tau’s used: 5.3 years for the residence time, 51 years for the e-fold decay rate.

Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
April 20, 2015 2:08 pm

nice graph ferdinand

Martin A
Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
April 20, 2015 11:40 pm

Thank you.

David L. Hagen
Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
April 21, 2015 6:00 am

Ferdinand
Please clarify if you kept the natural EMISSION (Source) rate constant at the base previous equilibrium rate and only pulsed increased the atmospheric concentration.

Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
April 22, 2015 11:50 am

David,
In the above graph, the natural carbon cycle remained constant at ~150 GtC/year in and out, assuming no change over the whole time span. That is what does give the fast drop of “human” CO2 in the atmosphere while the drop in excess mass above equilibrium is going down much slower…

Dave in Canmore
April 20, 2015 7:45 am

Nick Stokes says ” The initial rise (of CO2) was due to the forest clearing that came with European colonisation.”
When you cut down trees, the land doesn’t lie dormant. Nature abhors a vacuum as they say and other plants take their place about as fast as you cut them down (much to my chagrin as I work in forestry.) In the northern hemisphere, the grasses that replaced the harvested trees sequester just as much carbon. The notion that colonials cut down trees and nothing replaced them(?!) comes from an armchair speculator unfamiliar with the real world. Perhaps in poor tropical soils this idea might have more traction but the unfamiliarity with how actual biospheres work puts this statement into my bs bin.

Reply to  Dave in Canmore
April 20, 2015 12:17 pm

+10

Nick Stokes
Reply to  Dave in Canmore
April 20, 2015 2:10 pm

“In the northern hemisphere, the grasses that replaced the harvested trees sequester just as much carbon.”
They can’t. Where is it? Trees have vastly greater mass density per area. That is where the carbon is sequestered.
Scientists actually add this up.

Phlogiston
Reply to  Nick Stokes
April 20, 2015 4:39 pm

Where is it?
Its in the animals that eat the grass. If the land is turned over to agriculture, that means us.

milodonharlani
Reply to  Nick Stokes
April 20, 2015 5:01 pm

The area of the earth in forests diminishes greatly during NH glaciations, while CO2 crashes from balmy interglacial levels. Grassland and tundra spread, supporting vast numbers of massive megafauna. Similarly, American Indian burning of the long- and short-grass prairies improved habitat for tens of millions (at least) of bison & other large herbivores.
O2 produced per unit of ground area is a measure of photosynthesis. For ground area covered by a single plant species, a tropical grass or other species with C-4 photosynthesis, such as the crop corn (maize) would win. For natural ecosystems per unit ground area, tropical rain forests generally have the highest annual rates of photosynthesis. Bear in mind however that while forests store a mass of carbon in wood, grasslands, depending upon conditions, are capable of adding more mass per year.

c1ue
Reply to  Dave in Canmore
April 21, 2015 7:00 am

I can believe that mass tree clearing would increase CO2 levels *if* all/most of the wood was then burned. The question I would have is what proportion was used to build stuff like ships, fences, buildings, and so forth. Wood used to build wouldn’t contribute to CO2 levels because the decay associated with them is organic – termites, mold, and what not.
At least in Europe in the latter stages, old growth trees were primarily cut down to build ships.

Mike M.
April 20, 2015 8:02 am

Willis,
Nice post, but there is a bit of the problem. As others have pointed out, you start out with an over simplistic model that assumes first order kinetics (common, but by no means universal) for a single process (uncommon) that is irreversible (very rare). I think your discussion of Salby’s nonsense makes it clear that you know better. The problem is that the oversimplified reasoning of Figures 1, 2 and 3 is what leads to the type of errors that Salby makes. So I think it ends up undermining your eventual point.

David in Texas
April 20, 2015 8:28 am

For Clarity: “Sadly, Dr. Salby has proven to me that regarding this particular subject he doesn’t understand what he’s talking about.”
Here is what I disagree with: being arrogant and abusive (my perception) does not strength your argument, but rather distracts from it. It says that you are prone to fallacious reasoning – name calling. Do you really care about the “science, science, science” or is name calling equally important?
I hope that you don’t feel like I’m picking on you. I admire your abilities, just not your demeanor.
“He’s comparing ppmv of CO2 per year to plain old ppmv of CO2, and that is a meaningless comparison.” Actually, he is comparing the rate of growth in ppmv of CO2 in atmosphere to the rate of growth in human emissions of CO2 (in GtC). I would content, respectfully, that is not meaningless. You gave an example of a “constant annual pulses of amplitude 1” with a “Half-life = 6.9 years”. Question if the pulse size changes in year 50, wouldn’t the slope of your Figure 2 change in year 50 also?
Now I too have a problem with what Dr. Salby was saying. I calculated the growth rate of CO2 emission from 2001 through 2013 (data here, ftp://aftp.cmdl.noaa.gov/products/trends/co2/co2_annmean_mlo.txt) and get 2.0572 ppmv/yr which agrees with his 2.1 ppmv/yr. I next calculated from 1991 through 2001(his green line seems to start in 1991) and got 1.661 ppmv/yr growth rate. Choosing other intervals (1995 to 2002 yields 1.7708 ppmv/yr) does not help much.
So I was not able to reproduce Dr. Salby’s results, but I don’t feel compelled to beat my chest and call him names. It is just possible that I may be wrong.
For Clarity: “Airborne residence time (bomb test data): how long an individual CO2 molecule stays in the air.”
I disagree. This is how long a whole class of CO2 (with many billions of molecules) stays in the air. It seems to be a reasonable way of calculating tau. Again, I may be wrong.
You did say “I can only agree” to the decay of CO2 is proportional to abundance of CO2, but your tau is is 59 years. Questions: is Dr. Salby’s tau wrong? Is his approach wrong? If so, why?

Mike M.
Reply to  David in Texas
April 20, 2015 8:56 am

David in Texas wrote: “It says that you are prone to fallacious reasoning – name calling.” Not so. First Willis demonstrated the fallacies in Salby’s reasoning, then he drew a conclusion. Perhaps unkind, but not fallacious.

David in Texas
Reply to  Mike M.
April 20, 2015 1:39 pm

Perhaps, I missed the theme of the essay. If it was to discuss the hypotheses that the rate of CO2 accumulation in the atmosphere should be related to the rate of human emissions of CO2, name calling is fallacious reasoning. Not all hypothesis espoused by intelligent people are true, and not all hypotheses espoused by slow people are wrong. Aristotle was the first to systematize logical errors into a list. He used broad groups. This would fall under the category of an ‘irrelevancy’.
On the other hand, if the main theme of the essay was to launch a person attack on Dr. Salby, you may be right. Or perhaps, Willis was multitasking.
As I said, I respect Willis. I just wish that it would not do personal attacks.

April 20, 2015 8:30 am

As usual Willis uses data in a way that muddles the reality of the situation.
In contrast Dr. Salby, laid it out in the data a very clear cut concise manner.

April 20, 2015 8:32 am

CORRECTION- In contrast Dr. Salby , presented the data in a very clear concise manner.

Reply to  Salvatore Del Prete
April 20, 2015 1:29 pm

Salvatore,
But as Steve McIntyre ought to say: “watch the pea under the thimble”: he uses all the increase in the atmosphere as “temperature induced”, not only the variability, but also the offset and slope of the derivative. Of course that shows that temperature is the only cause of the increase as he backintegrate that… But as 95% of the offset and slope is caused by the human emissions, that is like a magician before his public: pure illusion.
One point is sure: either he publishes what he has done here at WUWT or anywhere on the net for comment, or he is the next unreliable source of a lot of wrong statements, which gives all skeptics a bad name…

Verified by MonsterInsights