About that graph…

clip_image001This one:

The title “Battle of the Graphs” certainly lives on, even though it is approaching a decade in age, as there has been a lot of off-topic contention on this WUWT thread as well as a free-for-all bashing over at the “Stoat” a.k.a. William Connolley (who “takes science by the throat”, implying he is some sort of “tough guy”) saying that this graph that appeared in a Telegraph article was erroneous and created by Christopher Monckton.

Based on the simplest available evidence, I was ready to conclude, as were many, that indeed Monckton had created the graph, that it was in error, and that he had refused to admit to any of this.  I was ready to censure him myself, just as the over-the-top Stoaters wanted to do, probably so Connolley could direct a new denigrating Wikipedia entry as he is known to do (he’s not allowed to edit Wikipedia pages of living persons anymore, so he directs by proxy). Now, after further investigation I can tell you I was wrong, and so is Connolley.

If Monckton was wrong I certainly would’ve had no trouble pointing this out just as the Stoaters were doing, but I have one advantage that neither Monckton nor the Stoaters have: I have actually worked at a newspaper and I have submitted articles as a guest author to newspapers. So, I am familiar with the artwork process. Further, I have also published a number of articles from Monckton myself here and I am quite familiar with his style of producing graphs.

Thus, I noticed something about the Telegraph article that no one else seemed to.

WUWT commenter Kevin O’Neill, who also frequents Connolley’s website pointed out in this comment the charges against Monckton.

First let’s have a look at the article itself. The URL for it is:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1533290/Climate-chaos-Dont-believe-it.html

A screencap of the heading portion is shown below with the highlight done by me in yellow.

Telegraph_monckton_2006

Unfortunately the link under the yellow highlight no longer works and so for some it is impossible to check Monckton’s references and calculations that were included with the essay. We’ll get back to that in a moment, please read on.

Here is how the article presented the graph that is in contention, I have screen captured a portion of the original Telegraph article:

Telegraph_monckton_2006_graph

Several things immediately struck me as being out of place when I first saw the graph after reading about the contention surrounding it, here is a list.

  • The style (colors, font, etc) is not anything like I’ve ever seen from Monckton in all the graphs he has submitted to WUWT.
  • The horizontal lines on the bottom portion of the graph are obviously spaced incorrectly (the 20th century average line looks like it is incorrect on left axis) along with other cues in the plot line indicating to me that they were hand-drawn yet I’ve never gotten the graph from Monckton that was hand-drawn. Everything he has ever sent me has always been from a computer program output, thus the idea of having improperly spaced lines and coordinates a hand drawn plot didn’t make sense to me.
  • My experience with newspapers told me that this was likely a graph that was prepared by the art department of the UK Telegraph. You see, all major newspapers and even some middle and minor ones have an art department. And, when they get some sort of illustration from a guest author, or data from a government report, they almost always redraw it to fit the style and format of the newspaper. Especially the colors and the fonts.

Just look at any major newspaper in the United States like USA Today when they get in data from say, the Labor Department, they produce their own graphs of that data. They can also make grievous mistakes with such data in the way it is presented such as this article from Charles Apple (who watches newspapers and the graphics and photos they produce) demonstrates:

110706UsaTodayWeatherSnapshot02[1]

Obviously, neither the editor nor the artist saw the sexual suggestion in the imagery. I don’t blame the NWS or the Red Cross who provided the data, I blame Doyle Rice and Julie Snider. Note the references at the bottom of the graphic.

Here, USA Today took data from the National Weather Service and the American Red Cross and turned it into what is obviously a ridiculous graphic. It got past the editor, and made it into the final publication.

I noted such references to internal artists, editors, and sources were missing from the UK Telegraph article as seen in the screen cap further above, and it is this omission that I believe led many people to conclude that Monckton produced that graphic.

If you examine other graphics from the UK Telegraph, you will find that they do have such references but they are also similarly designed and of a similar size with similar fonts and colors. For example, look at this graphic from 2005 that has been redrawn, but no mention given of an internal reference to The Telegraph art department:

Telegraph_GW_2005Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/4198339/Global-warming-will-bring-cooler-climate-for-UK.html

It is plainly obvious that is a graphic created by the newspaper and not by any scientific entity, otherwise it wouldn’t have the jagged shadow edges. So, the question surrounding the graph allegedly produced by Christopher Monckton is; did he included in the original list of references that he provided the Telegraph in that now missing link at the top of the original article? I’m happy to say I have found that original source file that Monckton provided to the Telegraph. It was lodged in the Wayback machine. I was able to find it simply by putting in the correct URL of the original Telegraph article as shown below:

https://web.archive.org/web/20090301000000*/http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1533290/Climate-chaos-Dont-believe-it.htmlWayback_Monckton_telegraph

When you pull up the archive from 2009, the link appears for the PDF file of Monckton’s references but unfortunately it gives a 404 as seen below:

Wayback_Monckton_telegraph2

Oddly though if you click on  the LEFT MOST vertical lines  (circa 2007/2008) in the timeline above, the PDF will actually download, and that is what I did. For those of you that would doubt this you can go here and try it yourself:

Click to access warm-refs.pdf

And for posterity, here is a local link to the PDF of the References Monckton provided for the Telegraph article in 2006: warm-refs

If you open that PDF file you will notice a number of graphs and references including the graph from IPCC section 7 graph C. McIntyre speaks of its source here.

But no trace of the exact artwork combination as presented above appears in the Telegraph article is in Monckton’s reference PDF file, clearly indicating that the telegraph art department redrew that 1990 IPCC graph and the hockey stick graph, changing the top-bottom order. Below is page 6 from Monckton’s “warm-refs” PDF file, showing those graphs:

Monckton_Warm_refs_page6

While I was ready to condemn Monckton for producing a sloppy graph like many of these Stoaters, it is now abundantly clear to me that he did not draw it and the claims by these people are erroneous and simply mendacious.

Stoat/Connelley is simply flat wrong, and the website that cited Monckton’s graphic as an example of what not to do needs to clarify that it was the newspaper that made the errors, that the source graphs came from the IPCC, and that Monckton drew none of them.

All this breastbeating over something that can be simply researched as I have done is just a waste of everyone’s time.

Monckton prepared a rebuttal as well which I present below.

=================================================================

There comes a point …

By Christopher Monckton of Brenchley

Those of us who have raised questions about the magnitude of Man’s influence on climate have become used to the expensively funded, often carefully co-ordinated campaigns of personal vilification organized by adherents of the Climatist Party Line. Occasionally we growl a little. More often we refuse to be distracted. We carry on.

The purpose of these relentless attacks on us is not only to do us down but also to frighten off third parties who might otherwise find the courage to speak out and express their own doubts about the Party Line.

But there comes a point when it is necessary to take action. I hope no one will disagree that that point is reached when allegations of lying or fabrication are made; when the allegations are unquestionably false; when they are persisted in despite requests to cease and desist; and when they are widely disseminated in a manner calculated baselessly to cause maximum reputational damage.

Recently a commenter at Jo Nova’s blog posted several comments to the effect that I had “faked” a graph. I quickly asked Jo to replace them with a note to say legal proceedings were in train. Enough, I had decided, was enough.

Here is the diagram I was supposed to have “faked”:

clip_image001

This surely blameless diagram appeared alongside an article I had written for the Sunday Telegraph on 5 November 2006, the first time I ever went public on the climate question. The article went live on the internet at midnight on a Saturday night. Two hours later the Telegraph’s website crashed, for 127,000 people had tried to access the article.

Now, it is not the custom of UK newspapers to ask their contributors to illustrate their articles. As usual, I was not consulted and offered no advice on the matter, and had no hand in their production and no foreknowledge that they were to be used. The graphs are not labeled as having been sourced from the IPCC (indeed, one of the graphs has the shadow of a hockey stick overlaid on it and marked as the “IPCC ‘hockey stick’”, making it blindingly obvious that it is not an official IPCC’s graph).

The Telegraph’s graphs are simple and, it seems to me, harmless schematics illustrating the difference between the representations of 1000 years’ global temperatures as they appeared in the IPCC’s 2001 (top) and 1990 (bottom) reports.

The graph from p. 202 of the IPCC’s 1990 report now looks like this:

clip_image003

With the article I supplied some background material for Telegraph readers on its website. In that material, the IPCC’s 1990 graph also appeared, mistakenly captioned as 1996 rather than 1990. The graph as I reproduced it looked like this:

clip_image005

What I had not realized until very recently was that for several years allegations had been circulated all over the place to the effect that I had fabricated the graphs that had appeared in the Sunday Telegraph article. Yet not one of those who had made these allegations had ever contacted me to verify the facts. And not one of them had said what was wrong with the Telegraph’s graphs anyway.

Perhaps the worst of the many allegations of dishonesty against me appeared on a “science education” website, where an entire section under the bold heading “Misuse of scientific images” was devoted to the Telegraph’s graphs.

The offending section contained the following untruths:

  • Ø that in that article I had “disputed the concept of climate change” (Not that old chestnut again! I had accepted the concept but queried its likely magnitude);
  • Ø that the Telegraph’s graphs were instances of “poor use of graphical displays” that “can confuse and obscure data” (No, they neatly showed the main point: in 1990 the medieval warm period and little ice age were shown clearly, but by 2001 both had gone, and a sharp uptick in the 20th century had been added);
  • Ø that I had “created the [1990] graph on the bottom using different calculations that did not take into account all of the variables that climate scientists used to create the top graph” (No, I had not created either graph or done any calculations for such a graph);
  • Ø that I had deployed “common techniques used to distort visual forms of data – manipulating axes, changing one of the variables in a comparison, changing calculations without full explanation – that can obscure a true comparison” (No, none of the above); and
  • Ø that the article had been published in the Daily Telegraph (No, the Sunday Telegraph, and that suggests the website had never seen the original article but had picked up the libel from somewhere else).

I only discovered that this spectacularly inaccurate and profoundly damaging infestation of allegations when the commenter at Jo Nova’s site who had accused me of “faking” the graph mentioned on his own blog that I had not objected to the libel as it appeared on the science-education website. I had not objected because I had not known about it. No one at that website had thought to check any of the facts with me, or, as far as one can tell, with anyone else.

In short order a letter before action was sent to the website, which promptly did the right thing and took out the entire section, though there are indications that attempts are being made in some quarters – unsuccessfully so far – to get them to put it back up again.

I gave the commenter at Jo Nova’s website who had accused me of “faking” the graphs several chances to retract and apologize. Instead, he and several others sneeringly doubled down by accusing me of “lying” when I had said the graphs at the Telegraph website had not purported to be, and had not been labeled as, IPCC graphs.

They also alleged that the graph in my background materials accompanying the Telegraph article was “not the same graph” as that from the IPCC’s 1990 report: in effect, that I had “faked” that one as well. Judge that for yourselves from the two monochrome versions of the graph above. There seem to me to be no material differences, and I think it would be hard for the defendants to convince a court that there were any.

So I am going to court. My lawyers say the libels are plain and indefensible. They comment additionally that no judge would regard the schematics in the Telegraph (whoever had drawn them) as significantly misrepresenting the difference between the 1990 and 2001 reports’ images of the past millennium’s global temperature anomalies. As far as they can see, there is not a lot wrong with the graphs in any event.

I have told this story not only because some commenters here have been unwise enough to repeat in threads here the allegations they have made elsewhere but also because I thought it might be time to reveal the steps we have to take on an almost weekly basis to try to stem the tide of false allegations directed at us.

Nor am I by any means the only victim. For years, this shadowy Propagandaamt has been tampering with Fred Singer’s Wikipedia page to allege that he believes in Martians.

Niklas Mörner, the sea-level expert, has had his page got at on the ground that he sometimes dowses for water or other underground treasure. My late father once did that for the Maltese Government, and found three lost Punic tombs and a fine marble head of Seneca from the first century AD. My drawing of it (in the day before digital cameras) is probably still to be found somewhere in the Museum of Classical Archaeology at Cambridge. But I never had the knack for dowsing myself.

A pressure-group founded and funded by Prince Charles is prone to intervene to try (unsuccessfully, the last time they tried it on me) to prevent the publication of skeptical scientific papers in British learned journals.

A team of paid hacks telephones the Chancellor and the Dean of the Faculty at every university at which skeptics are invited to speak. About half the time, they succeed in getting us disinvited.

Journal editors are sacked for printing papers by skeptics.

However much one might hope that scientific discourse can be conducted in an open atmosphere of sensible dialog, the truth is that on the climate it can’t, because the extremists won’t play fair. The Politburo are determined to keep the scare going for just a little longer, till they can get the Treaty of Paris safely signed by all nations in December 2015.

So I am going to court to defend myself and, in so doing against the constant barrage of falsehoods told in support of the Party Line. We went to court against Al Gore because his movie was poisonous political propaganda dressed up as science.

We won. Nothing else but a court case would have worked. It was only when the department of education in London were confronted with 80 pages of scientific testimony, and knew that that testimony would stand up in court against all their falsehoods and evasions, that they caved in and settled, paying $400,000 to the plaintiffs and undertaking to circulate 77 pages of corrective guidance to every school in England.

In the present case, the other side has blinked thrice. On the website of my defamer, there is a nervous little note that he will not give me his name and address unless I answer various impertinent questions of his. The court will have no patience with any nonsense of that sort.

And there are now various postings at the same blog, again rather nervous, saying that perhaps they could plead that I don’t have a reputation and they can accuse me of whatever they like.

They will be unwise to take that line. For if they say I have no reputation they have to be able to come up with evidence that any material detrimental to my reputation on which they may try to rely is true. And most of it is no more accurate than their accusations that I “faked” a graph that I had plainly not faked. If they waste the court’s time with point after point that has nothing to do with the case at hand, they will merely aggravate the damages they will have to pay.

Finally, the perp has been unwise enough to admit that at the time when he made his allegation of “fakery” he did not know whether I had “faked” the graph or not. In the courts, to make a damaging and untrue allegation not knowing whether or not it is true is as culpable as making it when one knows it is not true. And there is no defense once that admission has been made. It has been made.

There is a curious and touching notion among some skeptics that, since the truth will of course prevail in the end, we should persevere with the scientific argument but not take the defamers and the scamsters to court. The feeling is that using the courts somehow isn’t cricket.

Sometimes, though, it’s necessary to play hardball. Being Valiant for Truth is not for wimps.

================================================================

UPDATE:

From comments, Steve McIntyre finds another version of the Lamb/IPCC AR1 1990 graph, which looks to me to be much closer to the graph used in the Telegraph article. This graph does NOT appear in Monkton’s PDF.

He writes in a comment:

The lower panel of the Telegraph diagram appears to have derived from (what appears to be) a variation of the Lamb graphic, a variation that I had not noticed until now. The variation appears in the following blog posts (and visually matches almost exactly):

LAMB_2ndversion

http://drtimball.com/2011/they-are-still-trying-to-rewrite-climate-to-show-current-conditions-are-abnormal/

http://hockeyschtick.blogspot.ca/2009/12/from-mann-paper-in-nature.html

Neither blog post provides a citation for the figure, but there are clues that should enable its exact provenance to be tracked down fairly quickly. It appears to be from a book about European climate and have been developed by Lamb. It is unclear why the Telegraph would have used this variation instead of the IPCC 1990 variation, but doubtless we will find out in due course.

UPDATE2:

Nick Stokes adds in comments (bold mine):

There is a version of that graph at the John Daly site here. The article does not seem to be dated, but Daly is indicated as the author, which would make it 2004 or earlier. No source given.

Here is the graph from John Daly’s website, listed as figure 4:

And here is the Metadata, dating the creation of it precisely to Feb 10, 2004, two years before Monckton’s article in the Telegraph.

(right click on image at Daly’s website here to verify yourself)

John-Daly-Metadata-1000yrs

Nick Stokes adds in a second comment:

Steve McIntyre says: July 3, 2014 at 12:12 pm

“The lower panel of the Telegraph diagram appears to have derived from (what appears to be) a variation of the Lamb graphic, a variation that I had not noticed until now.”

Here, on the Wayback machine, is a version from 2001 on the John Daly site.

And the screencap:

John-Daly-solar-2001-wayback

Since Daly’s graph is a near perfect match for the one in the Telegraph, and appears as far back as April 21, 2001, and Monckton did not provide it in his PDF to the Telegraph, I’d say “case closed”.

UPDATE3:

There is some whingeing from Kevin O’Neill in comments that Figure 7.1c from IPCC AR1 WG1 chapter 7 (available here: http://www.ipcc.ch/ipccreports/far/wg_I/ipcc_far_wg_I_chapter_07.pdf ) was not “faithfully” reproduced in my article, even though I made a reference to a technical discussion at Climate Audit on that specific graph and the exact figure appears no less than 3 times in the essay split between my own and Monckton’s

If you open that PDF file you will notice a number of graphs and references including the graph from IPCC section 7 graph C. McIntyre speaks of its source here.

To satisfy such whingeing, here is the exact page from IPCC AR1 WG1 chapter 7, followed by a magnified view of figure 7.1 (including graphs A,B, and C) in case Mr. O’Neill wants to claim “a magnified version is needed for readers with poor eyesight” as part of his game. I challenge him and readers to find any material difference between the graphs below taken directly from the IPCC WG1 Chapter 7 page 202 and those in the essay.

 

IPCC_FAR_Figure 7-1_page202

Magnified figure 7.1abc:

IPCC_FAR_Figure 7-1abc

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richardscourtney
July 9, 2014 3:41 pm

Sock Puppet posting as JBL:
re your post at July 9, 2014 at 3:27 pm.
I read all your silly post and answered the part I set up.
The remainder of your post was childish name calling of a kind one could anticipate from one of C0n0lley’s minions.
Richard

July 9, 2014 9:32 pm

JBL says:
Christ you’re a moron.
JBL, Richard Courtney is correct:
…WP is an abbreviation for Word Press when it is posted on a Word Press platform and is not stated to be otherwise.
WP = WordPress.

J Murphy
July 10, 2014 12:11 am

Ignoring all the baseless accusations, insults and non-scientific, credible sources, I see there are still no takers who will publically state which 50 or 100 year period during the MWP was globally and contemporaneously warmer than recent times. Very revealing…

richardscourtney
July 10, 2014 12:24 am

J Murphy:
Your post at July 10, 2014 at 12:11 am says in total

Ignoring all the baseless accusations, insults and non-scientific, credible sources, I see there are still no takers who will publically state which 50 or 100 year period during the MWP was globally and contemporaneously warmer than recent times. Very revealing…

Ignoring all the baseless accusations and insults you have provided, I see that you still refuse to accept the overwhelming scientific evidence showing the MWP was as global as the present global warming, and the MWP was warmer than now. Some of of this evidence has been provided to you here by three different people but you assert the science is not “credible sources” because it refutes what you want to believe. Very revealing …
Richard

Steve Milesworthy
July 10, 2014 2:46 am

There are dozens and dozens of papers covering different regions for different parts of the 800-1300 period identifying warmer, colder, wetter, drier periods within that period.
If JBL or J Murphy were able to provide strong evidence that some areas were cooler during 1010-1060 now, then it is easy for someone to say “ah well, your’re missing the bigger picture” or that “you should have looked at the data for 1120-1170”. E.g. data from clam shells plus anecdotal data about famines shows that Iceland’s coldest period was not the LIA but the 11th century.
http://www.nature.com/news/2010/100308/full/news.2010.110.html
If I read a review paper like Soon and Balnius, I want to check the sources. But, e.g. Iriondo 1999 that W&B use to say that parts of S America were may be 2.5C warmer than now cost ££ to download. So I don’t want to pay the money until I can identify the key sources for a particularly notable period.
(The Met Office library, where I am now, doesn’t seem to have deep pockets).
So pick a 50 year period and then see if JBL, J Murphy etc. can pick it apart.

richardscourtney
July 10, 2014 3:15 am

Steve Milesworthy:
re your post at July 10, 2014 at 2:46 am, I see the tag-team continues.
You say

So pick a 50 year period and then see if JBL, J Murphy etc. can pick it apart.

Read the thread!
Several people have cited such periods of 50 years; see e.g, my post at July 9, 2014 at 8:03 am which both iterates my having provided them and complains at J Murphy pretending I did not. It says

There are several sequential periods of “50 or 100 years” between “1100 and 1300 AD”. You try to pretend that the global medieval warm period (MWP) should be “800–1300AD” but that disagrees with the findings of Soon&Baliunas which I quoted. However, “800–1300AD” contains more sequential periods of “50 or 100 years” than “1100 and 1300 AD”.

.
I don’t understand why you “JBL, J Murphy etc.” pretend such periods have not been cited: it fools nobody (except, perhaps, yourselves).
Richard

Steve Milesworthy
July 10, 2014 3:35 am

richardscourtney: “I see the tag-team continues.”
I call ad hom. But I don’t comment much at Stoat, have never noticed JBL and J Murphy before, and most of my comments are telling WMC how narrow-minded he is, and most of his are him telling me I have to provide more evidence for my beliefs.
*I* have been asking for evidence for more specificity for several years now on other forums for the reasons that I give in my post. Normally it’s about the CO2 science project. IIRC Loehle gives a 30 year period – do you agree with his 30 year period?

richardscourtney
July 10, 2014 7:53 am

Steve Milesworthy:
At July 10, 2014 at 3:35 am you ask me

*I* have been asking for evidence for more specificity for several years now on other forums for the reasons that I give in my post. Normally it’s about the CO2 science project. IIRC Loehle gives a 30 year period – do you agree with his 30 year period?

No, as I have repeatedly said in this thread including in my post addressed to you, the MWP as reported by Soon & Baliunas was from ~1100 AD to ~1300 AD which is much longer than 30 years.
Your asking this question is yet more evidence that you are the latest in the sequence of participants in the tag team. That is an observed fact and it is not an ad hom.: i.e. you are the latest in the series of persons arriving to ask the same question in different words each time the question is again answered.
Richard

Steve Milesworthy
July 10, 2014 8:54 am

richard, I’m not part of a tag team, so it isn’t “an observed fact”. It’s an observation that has been misinterpreted by you because you want to associate me with people I’ve never met or conversed with. I suspect we’re all curious about your choice of 1100-1300 when the paper talks about 800-1300 (and even talks about the cold english winters of 1260-onwards)
I was having a very similar discussion with Steve McIntyre in 2007, but he said then “At this point, I’m not arguing that a MWP is established world wide…”
http://climateaudit.org/2007/05/15/swindle-and-the-ipcc-tar-spaghetti-graph/
Anyway, From S&B:
“For Questions (1) and (2), we answered ‘Yes’ if the
proxy record showed a period longer than 50 yr of
cooling, wetness or dryness during the Little Ice Age,
and similarly for a period of 50 yr or longer for warm-
ing, wetness or dryness during the Medieval Warm
Period.”
So if it is wet or dry in the MWP period, it must be evidence of warmth.
If it is wet or dry in the LIA period, it must be evidence of cold.
Not *terribly* convincing.

J Murphy
July 10, 2014 10:23 am

richardscourtney, I don’t know why you keep stating that “the MWP as reported by Soon & Baliunas was from ~1100 AD to ~1300 AD” because I don’t see it in their paper. Could you include a direct quote from the paper, or describe which page, etc. it is on? The only place I can find those time-periods mentioned is in connection with Bohemia. Other than that, the time period mentioned as a MWP in that paper is as I have stated before, and as Steve Milesworthy has again repeated, is 800-1300.
Generally, though, even in the paper they admit “…the results from the proxy indicators cannot be combined into a hemispheric or global quantitative composite” and “…individual proxies can be used to address the question of whether the 20th century is the warmest of the 2nd millennium locally”. So why do people think this paper is proof of a global MWP?
It’s also pretty ironic that the paper even acknowledges “…the…Medieval Warm Period…should indicate persistent but not necessarily constant warming…over broad areas…”. Ironic because I don’t know how often I’ve seen the claim that AGW is now ‘proven’ false because temperatures haven’t increased at a constant and steady rate over the last…(insert your time-period of choice). If people believe that is true, then obviously no period of the MWP can be taken as proof of warmer temperatures then than now, unless you have detailed proof of temperatures for specific years.
Finally, though, and most importantly, those who do read the paper and analyse it properly (rather than just be told that it proves a global MWP, or it proves recent temperatures are lower than the MWP, etc., and just accept what they have been told) can see that the spread of date ranges for the MWP from the paper are from roughly 1000AD at the Poles, to 1100AD in Asia, 1200AD in Europe/Americas, and 1300AD in South Africa/Australasia. (Or, to go by the total spread of dates given for the different regions of the globe given separately: 800AD [or “several centuries before 1130”, whichever is earlier] to 1400AD). These are all very rough dates and regions, based on data in the paper, but they show, if you look for yourself, a MWP that was an influence on different regions at different time-periods. Very different from the general increase in temperatures experienced globally and contemporaneously over the most recent period.
But, again, if anyone wants to give some dates they reckon prove differently (i.e. that the MWP was global and contemporaneous), feel free to provide a 50 or 100 time-period.

richardscourtney
July 10, 2014 11:07 am

J Murphy:
At July 10, 2014 at 10:23 am you ask me

richardscourtney, I don’t know why you keep stating that “the MWP as reported by Soon & Baliunas was from ~1100 AD to ~1300 AD” because I don’t see it in their paper. Could you include a direct quote from the paper, or describe which page, etc. it is on?

Good grief! How many more times do you want me to do this?
Which is your problem: you can’t read or you won’t read?
I first provided citation, quotation, link and explanation in my post at July 7, 2014 at 7:39 am. I cannot be bothered to write it all yet again so I provide this link which jumps to it.
This is the final time I will answer this question which you have repeatedly asked despite my answering it each time.
Richard

richardscourtney
July 10, 2014 11:17 am

Steve Milesworthy:
You say at July 10, 2014 at 8:54 am

richard, I’m not part of a tag team, so it isn’t “an observed fact”. It’s an observation that has been misinterpreted by you because you want to associate me with people I’ve never met or conversed with.

I don’t know why you claim I “want” to associate you with anybody. I don’t.
As I said, I observed the fact that you are the latest in the sequence of participants in the tag team. That is an observed fact and it is not an ad hom.: i.e. you are the latest in the series of persons arriving to ask the same question in different words each time the question is again answered. I have no idea whether or not you knew other particiants in the tag team before you decided to join it. And I fail to see anything I have – or could have – “misinterpreted”. I have merely stated facts.
The Medieval Warm Period (MWP) was warmer than at present and was at least as ‘global’ as the present warm period. Lamb’s graph describes it. Live with it.
Richard

July 10, 2014 11:34 am

J Murphy,
What is the matter with you?? You don’t seem able to understand anything, no matter how clearly it is explained to you.
This is a big problem with the alarmist crowd. When something simple is explained, many of them just cannot understand. Why? Because their minds are already made up, and any contrary information causes immense cognitive dissonance. A mental road block results.
Run along back to one of your thinly-trafficked alarmist blogs, where you don’t have to think. You will be right at home there. Here, you’re just cluttering up the thread with stupidity.

J Murphy
July 10, 2014 1:36 pm

OK, so richardscourtney can’t copy and paste a quote from a paper he linked to…because the assertion he made – “the MWP as reported by Soon & Baliunas was from ~1100 AD to ~1300 AD” – does not exist in the paper. No surprise.
And dbstealey finds it easier to insult than provide a simple 50 or 100 year period during the MWP which he can assert was globally and contemporaneously warmer than recent times. What a surprise…not.

July 10, 2014 5:10 pm

J Murphy won’t accept anything that doesn’t conform to his religious beliefs. But foer other readers, here is a chart based on Ohio State data. It shows a lot longer time frame than “50 or 100” years, where the MWP exceeded current parameters.
Next, here is a peer reviewed study from Harvard, showing the same thing.
And JoNova does an extensive research article here. WUWT previously posted this graph, which aligns with the peer reviewed studies above.
Next, this graph is based on the peer reviewed studies noted in the graph.
Next, CO2 science posted this graph of the MWP, compared with modern temperatures.
Moberg and Ljundqvist provided the data for this graph of the MWP, comparing it with current temperatures.
There are many more like those. The existence of a long duration, world wide MWP is not in doubt. These charts are not for the benefit of J Murphy, because his mind is jmade up and closed tighter than a submarine hatch. He cannot accept reality. But for new readers, the record must be kept straight despite the incessant, mindless arguments by the alarmist cultists.

J Murphy
July 11, 2014 1:49 am

dbstealey, of your three credible links (the ones leading to science, or with a connection to the science in some vague way – I’ll be generous):
The first one (http://www.cfa.harvard.edu/news/archive/pr0310.html) is to a press-release about the Soon and Baliunas paper already mentioned and discussed here, so that doesn’t add any proof.
Your second link (http://s90.photobucket.com/user/dhm1353/media/Hockey1-1.png.html), although it is to a non-scientifically verifiable site, does contain easily-creatable and verifiable graphs, including the above Northern Hemisphere graph showing present temperatures warmer than during the MWP, and this one which shows the same (http://s90.photobucket.com/user/dhm1353/media/Moberg1.png.html). What were you trying to prove with them?
Your third link, although, again, not strictly related to the actual science, has an article which states “The warming of the Earth’s surface by downwelling radiation is imaginary” (http://www.biocab.org/Downwelling_Radiation_and_EMRP.pdf)…
But, trying to ignore that, the graph shown is difficult to decipher, especially as the temperature reference seems to ultimately go back to…Soon and Baliunas! Well, that is a popular paper with some people, isn’t it?
So, come on dbstealey, why not give a 50 or 100 year date range that you reckon was globally and contemporaneously higher than recent times? Don’t rely on links to blogs and graphs that need to be interpreted and investigated. State your own opinion and dates. Why not?

Steve Milesworthy
July 11, 2014 2:14 am

richardscourtney,
OK I get it, but it is not compelling for the reasons I gave above. You say S&B “extends” the work of Lamb 1965. And Lamb 1965 created the MWP holy grail whose date range must not be touched (even if some of S&B’s proxies disagree with it because they are for the “transition” to the LIA).
It’s not compelling because many of the references in S&B are to proxies of “wet or dry” not warmth. Wet or dry does not mean warmth. Which is substantially what Steve McIntyre taught me back in 2007 when I was getting into this discussion.
Anyway, discussion and engagement is not your strong suit so I’ll leave you in peace and go and argue with a proper arguer like WMC or Lucia.

Steve Milesworthy
July 11, 2014 2:21 am

dbstealey,
Personally, I think it would be very interesting to know why the current warmth does not appear to have shown up in many proxy studies (which seems to be the point the S&B paper is making).
There are lots of plausible reasons why it has not (e.g. the period is too short, the proxies have not been updated (something Steve McIntyre finds unconvincing, the CO2 and/or change in land use is having an impact etc. etc.), but plausible reasoning is not always reliable.
BTW your Harvard link is to the press release on Courtney’s S&B citation.

July 11, 2014 10:01 am

J Murphy says:
dbstealey, of your three credible links…
Question: who elected you to be the arbiter of which peer reviewed links are “credible”, and which are not? Post your CV here, so we can determine if you are an authority. I suspect not. From your other comments, you are not even close to being up to speed on the subject.
I posted links that specifically answered what was asked, saying that there are many more like those examples available; the existence of a long duration, world wide MWP is not in doubt. But as I wrote above:
J Murphy won’t accept anything that doesn’t conform to his religious beliefs.
As I predicted, Murphy cannot accept anything that contradicts his religious true belief. I commented that those charts…
…are not for the benefit of J Murphy, because his mind is made up, and closed tighter than a submarine hatch. He cannot accept reality. But for new readers, the record must be kept straight despite the incessant, mindless arguments by the alarmist cultists.
I see nothing that changes that.
=============================
Steve Milesworthy says:
Personally, I think it would be very interesting to know why the current warmth does not appear to have shown up in many proxy studies
That is far too vague. What proxy studies are you referring to? The fact is that there is no “current warming”. Forget proxy studies. Empirical evidence trumps them all.

J Murphy
July 11, 2014 10:57 am

dbstealey, OK, you’re not prepared to give dates for when you think the MWP was global and contemporaneous. Fine. Everyone can see that.
But, moving on, why does your last link (“no ‘current warming'” – http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/rss/from:1997/plot/rss/from:1997.9/trend/plot/esrl-co2/from:1997.9/normalise/offset:0.68/plot/esrl-co2/from:1997.9/normalise/offset:0.68/trend) show RSS mean temperatures from 1997 but the trend from 1997.9?
For a bit of fun I will show the same data used, but from a year before (1996 – http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/rss/from:1996/plot/rss/from:1996/trend/plot/esrl-co2/from:1996/normalise/offset:0.68/plot/esrl-co2/from:1996/normalise/offset:0.68/trend);
and from 1983, to give a more valid climatic 30-year comparison (http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/rss/from:1983/plot/rss/from:1983/trend/plot/esrl-co2/from:1983/normalise/offset:0.68/plot/esrl-co2/from:1983/normalise/offset:0.68/trend).
Without looking, does anyone want to guess whether the trend is positive or negative?
Isn’t it amazing how you can get whatever trend you want if you pick your start date?

July 11, 2014 2:46 pm

J Murphy just doesn’t listen. Several skeptics have posted information, but Murphy — a self-appointed ‘expert’ with no CV — declares that only links which might support his globaloney are “credible”.
Murphy has never answered my very relevant question: who elected you to be the arbiter of which peer reviewed links are “credible”, and which are not?
Answer, please. Or forfeit the debate, as my links stand on their own otherwise.
Global T has been much higher and lower during the Holocene, and for much longer durations than 50 – 100 years. Honest folks will admit that fact. Dishonest folks will pretend that they are qualified experts, who falsely claim to know what links are “credible”. As if.
This chart shows that the planet was warmer than now during the MWP, and for several hundred years [the red line]. But our self-appointed “expert” doesn’t like that chart. Why not? Because it debunks his belief system. But so do lots of other links.
Murphy attempts to put skeptics into the position of having to prove a hypothesis. But skeptics are not required to prove a hypothesis or conjecture, because the CAGW conjecture belongs sloely to the alarmist clique. They own it. So the onus is entirely on the alarmist crowd, and their CAGW conjecture desperately needs support.
J Murphy has zero understanding of the climate Null Hypothesis. For those who do, the Null Hypothesis states that the current climate is neither unusual nor unprecedented; everything now being observed has happened before, and to a greater degree. Thus, there is no “fingerprint of AGW”. It simply does not exist, in any measurable degree. The entire CAGW conjecture is based on one big evidence-free assertion.
Next, J Murphy asks: why does your last link show RSS mean temperatures from 1997 but the trend from 1997.9?
Answer: because I used someone else’s link. Here, this link shows all data from 1997.0. They are essentially the same as 1997.9: there has been no global warming, while CO2 steadily rises. That answers Murphy’s trivial question. Now I would like to read his answer to my question: who elected Murphy as the arbiter of which links are “credible”? Or was he just winging it?
The rest of Murphy’s links are irrelevant, for this reason: it was the über-Warmist Phil Jones who designated 1997 as the benchmark start year. Go complain to Jones if you don’t like it.
In 1999, Jones picked 1997 and said that it would require no global warming for fifteeen years, beginning in 1997, to veriify if global warming has stopped. No doubt Jones thought he was on safe ground by requiring 15 years without any global warming. But as it turned out, we now have 17 years and 10 months without any global warming. Thus, any prior years that J Murphy cherry-picks now are irrelevant. Besides, he’s only a noob, and his education is just getting started. He also needs some new talking points, because the ones he’s been using are old and busted.
Anyone can pick a time frame that supports their belief system. For example, this chart clearly shows global cooling occurred from the 1940’s – 1970’s. That debunks the failed conjecture claiming that human activity is the cause of global warming.
The central fact is that global warmig stopped a long time ago, while [harmless, beneficial] CO2 continues to rise. No matter how much they nit-pick, the alarmist crowd loses the debate. Because the only real Authority is Planet Earth — and the planet is clearly showing the alarmist crowd that they were flat wrong.

richardscourtney
July 11, 2014 3:05 pm

Steve Milesworthy:
Thankyou for admitting your arguments are poor when you say to me at July 11, 2014 at 2:14 am

Anyway, discussion and engagement is not your strong suit so I’ll leave you in peace and go and argue with a proper arguer like WMC or Lucia.

That was in reply to my having wiped the floor with you in my post at July 10, 2014 at 11:17 am which is here.
Clearly, if “discussion and engagement is not {my} strong suit” then your arguments must be really, really rubbish when I can demolish them so easily.
Perhaps your lack of ability at arguing is because you are using the stoat as an example.
Richard

J Murphy
July 12, 2014 12:21 am

dbstealey, you wrote :
—“who elected you to be the arbiter of which peer reviewed links are “credible”, and which are not?”
Nothing to do with me. There’s a simple definition, but it’s not to do with “peer reviewed links”, which I don’t know anything about. It’s to do with links to peer-reviewed science : A link to peer-reviewed science is a link to a paper that has been peer-reviewed, and not to blogs or mysterious graphs. Simple.
But why are you using a GISP2, Greenland link (your “This chart” – http://i.snag.gy/BztF1.jpg) to claim anything about “the planet”? Does GISP2 show global temperatures? Where does that chart even come from? Have you verified it?

Steve Milesworthy
July 12, 2014 12:33 am

richardscourtney,
What I’m saying is that you have a fixed view. You cite evidence that doesn’t even support your view. You don’t explain when people get reasonably confused about what you are trying to say and simply repeat yourself. You don’t engage with refutations of your view. For example, why does your citation rely on wet or dry proxies to prove warmth during some periods and coolness during others. This point is completely fatal to S&B’s claim.
If you can’t, or refuse, to defend your claim, then that is not “wiping the floor” with me. Nobody else is reading this thread any more except you and me, so phrases like “wiping the floor” are falling on deaf ears.
PS. I was quite relieved (after a bit of searching in Hansard, the record of the UK parliament) to find that your claims of influence on UK parliament are rather thinner than your biography suggests.

richardscourtney
July 12, 2014 2:17 am

Steve Milesworthy:
You start your post at July 12, 2014 at 12:33 am saying to me

What I’m saying is that you have a fixed view. You cite evidence that doesn’t even support your view

Those two falsehoods are pure psychological projection. Please do not ascribe your faults to me when I do not exhibit them.
The remainder of your post is a similarly deluded rant.
Richard