About that graph…

clip_image001This one:

The title “Battle of the Graphs” certainly lives on, even though it is approaching a decade in age, as there has been a lot of off-topic contention on this WUWT thread as well as a free-for-all bashing over at the “Stoat” a.k.a. William Connolley (who “takes science by the throat”, implying he is some sort of “tough guy”) saying that this graph that appeared in a Telegraph article was erroneous and created by Christopher Monckton.

Based on the simplest available evidence, I was ready to conclude, as were many, that indeed Monckton had created the graph, that it was in error, and that he had refused to admit to any of this.  I was ready to censure him myself, just as the over-the-top Stoaters wanted to do, probably so Connolley could direct a new denigrating Wikipedia entry as he is known to do (he’s not allowed to edit Wikipedia pages of living persons anymore, so he directs by proxy). Now, after further investigation I can tell you I was wrong, and so is Connolley.

If Monckton was wrong I certainly would’ve had no trouble pointing this out just as the Stoaters were doing, but I have one advantage that neither Monckton nor the Stoaters have: I have actually worked at a newspaper and I have submitted articles as a guest author to newspapers. So, I am familiar with the artwork process. Further, I have also published a number of articles from Monckton myself here and I am quite familiar with his style of producing graphs.

Thus, I noticed something about the Telegraph article that no one else seemed to.

WUWT commenter Kevin O’Neill, who also frequents Connolley’s website pointed out in this comment the charges against Monckton.

First let’s have a look at the article itself. The URL for it is:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1533290/Climate-chaos-Dont-believe-it.html

A screencap of the heading portion is shown below with the highlight done by me in yellow.

Telegraph_monckton_2006

Unfortunately the link under the yellow highlight no longer works and so for some it is impossible to check Monckton’s references and calculations that were included with the essay. We’ll get back to that in a moment, please read on.

Here is how the article presented the graph that is in contention, I have screen captured a portion of the original Telegraph article:

Telegraph_monckton_2006_graph

Several things immediately struck me as being out of place when I first saw the graph after reading about the contention surrounding it, here is a list.

  • The style (colors, font, etc) is not anything like I’ve ever seen from Monckton in all the graphs he has submitted to WUWT.
  • The horizontal lines on the bottom portion of the graph are obviously spaced incorrectly (the 20th century average line looks like it is incorrect on left axis) along with other cues in the plot line indicating to me that they were hand-drawn yet I’ve never gotten the graph from Monckton that was hand-drawn. Everything he has ever sent me has always been from a computer program output, thus the idea of having improperly spaced lines and coordinates a hand drawn plot didn’t make sense to me.
  • My experience with newspapers told me that this was likely a graph that was prepared by the art department of the UK Telegraph. You see, all major newspapers and even some middle and minor ones have an art department. And, when they get some sort of illustration from a guest author, or data from a government report, they almost always redraw it to fit the style and format of the newspaper. Especially the colors and the fonts.

Just look at any major newspaper in the United States like USA Today when they get in data from say, the Labor Department, they produce their own graphs of that data. They can also make grievous mistakes with such data in the way it is presented such as this article from Charles Apple (who watches newspapers and the graphics and photos they produce) demonstrates:

110706UsaTodayWeatherSnapshot02[1]

Obviously, neither the editor nor the artist saw the sexual suggestion in the imagery. I don’t blame the NWS or the Red Cross who provided the data, I blame Doyle Rice and Julie Snider. Note the references at the bottom of the graphic.

Here, USA Today took data from the National Weather Service and the American Red Cross and turned it into what is obviously a ridiculous graphic. It got past the editor, and made it into the final publication.

I noted such references to internal artists, editors, and sources were missing from the UK Telegraph article as seen in the screen cap further above, and it is this omission that I believe led many people to conclude that Monckton produced that graphic.

If you examine other graphics from the UK Telegraph, you will find that they do have such references but they are also similarly designed and of a similar size with similar fonts and colors. For example, look at this graphic from 2005 that has been redrawn, but no mention given of an internal reference to The Telegraph art department:

Telegraph_GW_2005Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/4198339/Global-warming-will-bring-cooler-climate-for-UK.html

It is plainly obvious that is a graphic created by the newspaper and not by any scientific entity, otherwise it wouldn’t have the jagged shadow edges. So, the question surrounding the graph allegedly produced by Christopher Monckton is; did he included in the original list of references that he provided the Telegraph in that now missing link at the top of the original article? I’m happy to say I have found that original source file that Monckton provided to the Telegraph. It was lodged in the Wayback machine. I was able to find it simply by putting in the correct URL of the original Telegraph article as shown below:

https://web.archive.org/web/20090301000000*/http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1533290/Climate-chaos-Dont-believe-it.htmlWayback_Monckton_telegraph

When you pull up the archive from 2009, the link appears for the PDF file of Monckton’s references but unfortunately it gives a 404 as seen below:

Wayback_Monckton_telegraph2

Oddly though if you click on  the LEFT MOST vertical lines  (circa 2007/2008) in the timeline above, the PDF will actually download, and that is what I did. For those of you that would doubt this you can go here and try it yourself:

Click to access warm-refs.pdf

And for posterity, here is a local link to the PDF of the References Monckton provided for the Telegraph article in 2006: warm-refs

If you open that PDF file you will notice a number of graphs and references including the graph from IPCC section 7 graph C. McIntyre speaks of its source here.

But no trace of the exact artwork combination as presented above appears in the Telegraph article is in Monckton’s reference PDF file, clearly indicating that the telegraph art department redrew that 1990 IPCC graph and the hockey stick graph, changing the top-bottom order. Below is page 6 from Monckton’s “warm-refs” PDF file, showing those graphs:

Monckton_Warm_refs_page6

While I was ready to condemn Monckton for producing a sloppy graph like many of these Stoaters, it is now abundantly clear to me that he did not draw it and the claims by these people are erroneous and simply mendacious.

Stoat/Connelley is simply flat wrong, and the website that cited Monckton’s graphic as an example of what not to do needs to clarify that it was the newspaper that made the errors, that the source graphs came from the IPCC, and that Monckton drew none of them.

All this breastbeating over something that can be simply researched as I have done is just a waste of everyone’s time.

Monckton prepared a rebuttal as well which I present below.

=================================================================

There comes a point …

By Christopher Monckton of Brenchley

Those of us who have raised questions about the magnitude of Man’s influence on climate have become used to the expensively funded, often carefully co-ordinated campaigns of personal vilification organized by adherents of the Climatist Party Line. Occasionally we growl a little. More often we refuse to be distracted. We carry on.

The purpose of these relentless attacks on us is not only to do us down but also to frighten off third parties who might otherwise find the courage to speak out and express their own doubts about the Party Line.

But there comes a point when it is necessary to take action. I hope no one will disagree that that point is reached when allegations of lying or fabrication are made; when the allegations are unquestionably false; when they are persisted in despite requests to cease and desist; and when they are widely disseminated in a manner calculated baselessly to cause maximum reputational damage.

Recently a commenter at Jo Nova’s blog posted several comments to the effect that I had “faked” a graph. I quickly asked Jo to replace them with a note to say legal proceedings were in train. Enough, I had decided, was enough.

Here is the diagram I was supposed to have “faked”:

clip_image001

This surely blameless diagram appeared alongside an article I had written for the Sunday Telegraph on 5 November 2006, the first time I ever went public on the climate question. The article went live on the internet at midnight on a Saturday night. Two hours later the Telegraph’s website crashed, for 127,000 people had tried to access the article.

Now, it is not the custom of UK newspapers to ask their contributors to illustrate their articles. As usual, I was not consulted and offered no advice on the matter, and had no hand in their production and no foreknowledge that they were to be used. The graphs are not labeled as having been sourced from the IPCC (indeed, one of the graphs has the shadow of a hockey stick overlaid on it and marked as the “IPCC ‘hockey stick’”, making it blindingly obvious that it is not an official IPCC’s graph).

The Telegraph’s graphs are simple and, it seems to me, harmless schematics illustrating the difference between the representations of 1000 years’ global temperatures as they appeared in the IPCC’s 2001 (top) and 1990 (bottom) reports.

The graph from p. 202 of the IPCC’s 1990 report now looks like this:

clip_image003

With the article I supplied some background material for Telegraph readers on its website. In that material, the IPCC’s 1990 graph also appeared, mistakenly captioned as 1996 rather than 1990. The graph as I reproduced it looked like this:

clip_image005

What I had not realized until very recently was that for several years allegations had been circulated all over the place to the effect that I had fabricated the graphs that had appeared in the Sunday Telegraph article. Yet not one of those who had made these allegations had ever contacted me to verify the facts. And not one of them had said what was wrong with the Telegraph’s graphs anyway.

Perhaps the worst of the many allegations of dishonesty against me appeared on a “science education” website, where an entire section under the bold heading “Misuse of scientific images” was devoted to the Telegraph’s graphs.

The offending section contained the following untruths:

  • Ø that in that article I had “disputed the concept of climate change” (Not that old chestnut again! I had accepted the concept but queried its likely magnitude);
  • Ø that the Telegraph’s graphs were instances of “poor use of graphical displays” that “can confuse and obscure data” (No, they neatly showed the main point: in 1990 the medieval warm period and little ice age were shown clearly, but by 2001 both had gone, and a sharp uptick in the 20th century had been added);
  • Ø that I had “created the [1990] graph on the bottom using different calculations that did not take into account all of the variables that climate scientists used to create the top graph” (No, I had not created either graph or done any calculations for such a graph);
  • Ø that I had deployed “common techniques used to distort visual forms of data – manipulating axes, changing one of the variables in a comparison, changing calculations without full explanation – that can obscure a true comparison” (No, none of the above); and
  • Ø that the article had been published in the Daily Telegraph (No, the Sunday Telegraph, and that suggests the website had never seen the original article but had picked up the libel from somewhere else).

I only discovered that this spectacularly inaccurate and profoundly damaging infestation of allegations when the commenter at Jo Nova’s site who had accused me of “faking” the graph mentioned on his own blog that I had not objected to the libel as it appeared on the science-education website. I had not objected because I had not known about it. No one at that website had thought to check any of the facts with me, or, as far as one can tell, with anyone else.

In short order a letter before action was sent to the website, which promptly did the right thing and took out the entire section, though there are indications that attempts are being made in some quarters – unsuccessfully so far – to get them to put it back up again.

I gave the commenter at Jo Nova’s website who had accused me of “faking” the graphs several chances to retract and apologize. Instead, he and several others sneeringly doubled down by accusing me of “lying” when I had said the graphs at the Telegraph website had not purported to be, and had not been labeled as, IPCC graphs.

They also alleged that the graph in my background materials accompanying the Telegraph article was “not the same graph” as that from the IPCC’s 1990 report: in effect, that I had “faked” that one as well. Judge that for yourselves from the two monochrome versions of the graph above. There seem to me to be no material differences, and I think it would be hard for the defendants to convince a court that there were any.

So I am going to court. My lawyers say the libels are plain and indefensible. They comment additionally that no judge would regard the schematics in the Telegraph (whoever had drawn them) as significantly misrepresenting the difference between the 1990 and 2001 reports’ images of the past millennium’s global temperature anomalies. As far as they can see, there is not a lot wrong with the graphs in any event.

I have told this story not only because some commenters here have been unwise enough to repeat in threads here the allegations they have made elsewhere but also because I thought it might be time to reveal the steps we have to take on an almost weekly basis to try to stem the tide of false allegations directed at us.

Nor am I by any means the only victim. For years, this shadowy Propagandaamt has been tampering with Fred Singer’s Wikipedia page to allege that he believes in Martians.

Niklas Mörner, the sea-level expert, has had his page got at on the ground that he sometimes dowses for water or other underground treasure. My late father once did that for the Maltese Government, and found three lost Punic tombs and a fine marble head of Seneca from the first century AD. My drawing of it (in the day before digital cameras) is probably still to be found somewhere in the Museum of Classical Archaeology at Cambridge. But I never had the knack for dowsing myself.

A pressure-group founded and funded by Prince Charles is prone to intervene to try (unsuccessfully, the last time they tried it on me) to prevent the publication of skeptical scientific papers in British learned journals.

A team of paid hacks telephones the Chancellor and the Dean of the Faculty at every university at which skeptics are invited to speak. About half the time, they succeed in getting us disinvited.

Journal editors are sacked for printing papers by skeptics.

However much one might hope that scientific discourse can be conducted in an open atmosphere of sensible dialog, the truth is that on the climate it can’t, because the extremists won’t play fair. The Politburo are determined to keep the scare going for just a little longer, till they can get the Treaty of Paris safely signed by all nations in December 2015.

So I am going to court to defend myself and, in so doing against the constant barrage of falsehoods told in support of the Party Line. We went to court against Al Gore because his movie was poisonous political propaganda dressed up as science.

We won. Nothing else but a court case would have worked. It was only when the department of education in London were confronted with 80 pages of scientific testimony, and knew that that testimony would stand up in court against all their falsehoods and evasions, that they caved in and settled, paying $400,000 to the plaintiffs and undertaking to circulate 77 pages of corrective guidance to every school in England.

In the present case, the other side has blinked thrice. On the website of my defamer, there is a nervous little note that he will not give me his name and address unless I answer various impertinent questions of his. The court will have no patience with any nonsense of that sort.

And there are now various postings at the same blog, again rather nervous, saying that perhaps they could plead that I don’t have a reputation and they can accuse me of whatever they like.

They will be unwise to take that line. For if they say I have no reputation they have to be able to come up with evidence that any material detrimental to my reputation on which they may try to rely is true. And most of it is no more accurate than their accusations that I “faked” a graph that I had plainly not faked. If they waste the court’s time with point after point that has nothing to do with the case at hand, they will merely aggravate the damages they will have to pay.

Finally, the perp has been unwise enough to admit that at the time when he made his allegation of “fakery” he did not know whether I had “faked” the graph or not. In the courts, to make a damaging and untrue allegation not knowing whether or not it is true is as culpable as making it when one knows it is not true. And there is no defense once that admission has been made. It has been made.

There is a curious and touching notion among some skeptics that, since the truth will of course prevail in the end, we should persevere with the scientific argument but not take the defamers and the scamsters to court. The feeling is that using the courts somehow isn’t cricket.

Sometimes, though, it’s necessary to play hardball. Being Valiant for Truth is not for wimps.

================================================================

UPDATE:

From comments, Steve McIntyre finds another version of the Lamb/IPCC AR1 1990 graph, which looks to me to be much closer to the graph used in the Telegraph article. This graph does NOT appear in Monkton’s PDF.

He writes in a comment:

The lower panel of the Telegraph diagram appears to have derived from (what appears to be) a variation of the Lamb graphic, a variation that I had not noticed until now. The variation appears in the following blog posts (and visually matches almost exactly):

LAMB_2ndversion

http://drtimball.com/2011/they-are-still-trying-to-rewrite-climate-to-show-current-conditions-are-abnormal/

http://hockeyschtick.blogspot.ca/2009/12/from-mann-paper-in-nature.html

Neither blog post provides a citation for the figure, but there are clues that should enable its exact provenance to be tracked down fairly quickly. It appears to be from a book about European climate and have been developed by Lamb. It is unclear why the Telegraph would have used this variation instead of the IPCC 1990 variation, but doubtless we will find out in due course.

UPDATE2:

Nick Stokes adds in comments (bold mine):

There is a version of that graph at the John Daly site here. The article does not seem to be dated, but Daly is indicated as the author, which would make it 2004 or earlier. No source given.

Here is the graph from John Daly’s website, listed as figure 4:

And here is the Metadata, dating the creation of it precisely to Feb 10, 2004, two years before Monckton’s article in the Telegraph.

(right click on image at Daly’s website here to verify yourself)

John-Daly-Metadata-1000yrs

Nick Stokes adds in a second comment:

Steve McIntyre says: July 3, 2014 at 12:12 pm

“The lower panel of the Telegraph diagram appears to have derived from (what appears to be) a variation of the Lamb graphic, a variation that I had not noticed until now.”

Here, on the Wayback machine, is a version from 2001 on the John Daly site.

And the screencap:

John-Daly-solar-2001-wayback

Since Daly’s graph is a near perfect match for the one in the Telegraph, and appears as far back as April 21, 2001, and Monckton did not provide it in his PDF to the Telegraph, I’d say “case closed”.

UPDATE3:

There is some whingeing from Kevin O’Neill in comments that Figure 7.1c from IPCC AR1 WG1 chapter 7 (available here: http://www.ipcc.ch/ipccreports/far/wg_I/ipcc_far_wg_I_chapter_07.pdf ) was not “faithfully” reproduced in my article, even though I made a reference to a technical discussion at Climate Audit on that specific graph and the exact figure appears no less than 3 times in the essay split between my own and Monckton’s

If you open that PDF file you will notice a number of graphs and references including the graph from IPCC section 7 graph C. McIntyre speaks of its source here.

To satisfy such whingeing, here is the exact page from IPCC AR1 WG1 chapter 7, followed by a magnified view of figure 7.1 (including graphs A,B, and C) in case Mr. O’Neill wants to claim “a magnified version is needed for readers with poor eyesight” as part of his game. I challenge him and readers to find any material difference between the graphs below taken directly from the IPCC WG1 Chapter 7 page 202 and those in the essay.

 

IPCC_FAR_Figure 7-1_page202

Magnified figure 7.1abc:

IPCC_FAR_Figure 7-1abc

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423 Comments
July 7, 2014 2:31 pm

J Murphy says:
For more ‘hockeysticks’ and confirmation…
Earth to Murphy: Mann’s Hokey Stick has been thoroughly debunked. Deal with it.

J Murphy
July 7, 2014 2:34 pm

richardscourtney, the paper you linked to has approximately 200 references. You described it as having ‘hundreds’, to highlight the amount of information given.
The NRC link I provided has approximately 350 – I didn’t count because there are 17 pages of them, but they appear to have at least 20 references on each page. More information.
Why do you find your preferred source more believable?

July 7, 2014 2:37 pm

Phil Clarke says:
Margaret’s exact form of words…
[snip your question is out of line- Anthony]
Apparently you are her apologist now, since she has skedaddled. No doubt to go and research her “lengthy list” — you know, that long list she had at her fingertips…
Keep digging, Clarke. It is amusing.

J Murphy
July 7, 2014 2:37 pm

dbstealey, when you have some credible, sourced information to back up your assertions, without the need for insults, I will look at it. Until then, carry on arguing with yourself.

July 7, 2014 2:39 pm

JMurphy says:
…when you have some credible, sourced information…
I posted a source with dozens of charts, most of them peer reviewed. But being blinkered, what you really want is for me to cherry-pick empirical evidence for you, proving there was no MWP.
Sorry, can’t be done. The MWP was a global event, as seen in the link above. Deal with it.

richardscourtney
July 7, 2014 2:44 pm

J Murphy:
At July 7, 2014 at 2:34 pm you ask me

Why do you find your preferred source more believable?

I answer, because Willie Soon is an author and I know he is an honest and diligent scientist.
And I reply with two questions to you.
What makes you think C0n0lley-corupted Wikipedia has any credibility?
What relevance has this to the subject of this thread except that MY reference pertains to the graph which is part of the subject?
Richard

J Murphy
July 7, 2014 4:02 pm

richardscourtney, I don’t know what William Connolley (if that is who you are referring to?) has to do with the Wikipedia link I posted, or, indeed, how he can be so powerful as to ‘corrupt’ Wikipedia as a whole. To my mind, the best thing about Wikipedia is that it gives a good outline of any subject which you can then investigate further by following the references/links or by using Google or your search-engine of choice. A link to information about the reliability of Wikipedia (from Wikipedia) contains lots of information and links, so anyone can see for themselves how reliable a source it is. If you don’t trust that, because of some influence that William Connolley might have on that page, Google will give similar results if you type in relevant key-words. Hopefully William Connolley is not claimed to be a malign influence on Google too!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reliability_of_Wikipedia
As to your second question, the relevance is to the MWP, which figures prominently in the dodgy graph which is the subject of this thread.

Simon
July 7, 2014 4:29 pm

[the issue has been dealt with, thanks – Anthony]

F. Ross
July 7, 2014 4:39 pm

says:
July 7, 2014 at 2:29 pm
Precisely so!
Kudos for continuing to try to reach those who refuse to see or hear. Would that I had that patience.

RACookPE1978
Editor
July 7, 2014 5:10 pm

J Murphy says:
July 7, 2014 at 4:02 pm (replying to) richardscourtney,
I don’t know what William Connolley (if that is who you are referring to?) has to do with the Wikipedia link I posted, or, indeed, how he can be so powerful as to ‘corrupt’ Wikipedia as a whole. To my mind, the best thing about Wikipedia is that it gives a good outline of any subject which you can then investigate further by following the references/links or by using Google or your search-engine of choice. A link to information about the reliability of Wikipedia (from Wikipedia) contains lots of information and links, so anyone can see for themselves how reliable a source it is. If you don’t trust that, because of some influence that William Connolley might have on that page, Google will give similar results if you type in relevant key-words.

I cannot believe you are so ignorant to NOT know that your esteemed (self-proclaimed) Connolley personally deleted over 20,000 Wikipedia entries by other authors and writers in favor of HIS self-selected agenda and bias on topics centered around his religion (your religion) of CAGW caused by man-released CO2. (Other edited estimates have been as large as 48,000 Wikipedia entries – I will leave the specific counting to others.) And you believe his edits, his censorship and bias, make Wikipedia “reliable”?

milodonharlani
July 7, 2014 5:16 pm

J Murphy says:
July 7, 2014 at 11:21 am
India:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v364/n6439/abs/364703a0.html
A δ13C record of late Quaternary climate change from tropical peats in southern India
R. Sukumar*, R. Ramesh†, R. K. Pant† & G. Rajagopalan‡
*Centre for Ecological Sciences, Indian Institute of Science, Bangalore-560 012, India
†Physical Research Laboratory, Ahmedabad-380 009, India
‡ Birbal Sahni Institute of Palaeobotany, Lucknow-226 007, India
STABLE-ISOTOPE ratios of carbon in soils or lake sediments1–3 and of oxygen and hydrogen in peats4,5 have been found to reflect past moisture variations and hence to provide valuable palaeoclimate records. Previous applications of the technique to peat have been restricted to temperate regions, largely because tropical climate variations are less pronounced, making them harder to resolve. Here we present a δ13C record spanning the past 20 kyr from peats in the Nilgiri hills, southern India. Because the site is at high altitude (>2,000 m above sea level), it is possible to resolve a clear climate signal. We observe the key climate shifts that are already known to have occurred during the last glacial maximum (18 kyr ago) and the subsequent deglaciation. In addition, we observe an arid phase from 6 to 3.5 kyr ago, and a short, wet phase about 600 years ago. The latter appears to correspond to the Mediaeval Warm Period, which previously was believed to be confined to Europe and North America6,7. Our results therefore suggest that this event may have extended over the entire Northern Hemisphere.
SE Asian archipelago:
http://joannenova.com.au/2013/11/ocean-heat-content-around-indonesia-shows-medieval-warm-period-and-2c-warmth-in-holocene/
Eastern Europe/Russia:
http://www.co2science.org/subject/m/summaries/mwprussia.php
Middle Eastern deserts (eg Saharan & coastal Pakistan references):
http://www.co2science.org/articles/V5/N12/C2.php
Tropical African lowlands (eg lowland rain forest of Gabon reference):
http://www.co2science.org/subject/m/summaries/mwpafrica.php
Tropical South American lowlands:
https://sites.google.com/site/medievalwarmperiod/
Amazonia suffered immense drought between 700-800 AD and 1000-1100 AD. (Fire, Climate Change and Biodiversity in Amazonia: a Late Holocene Perspective. M. Bush. Phil. Trans. Royal Society. 2008. Archaeological Evidence for the Impact of Mega-Nino Events on Amazonia during the past two Millennia. B. Meggers. Smithsonian. 1994.)
Yet the (admittedly partly sub-tropical) usually hyper-arid Atacama desert was considerably wetter than today between 880-1250 AD. (Perennial Stream Discharge in the Hyper-arid Atacama Desert of Northern Chile during the Late Pleistocene. Nester et al. PNAS. 2007.)
Satisfied now?

RACookPE1978
Editor
July 7, 2014 5:43 pm

Milo:
How do your dates above line up with the collapses of the Mayan (Yucatan) and pueblo cultures (desert southwest canyons US)?

milodonharlani
July 7, 2014 6:17 pm

RACookPE1978 says:
July 7, 2014 at 5:43 pm
The Anasazi of the SW were clearly affected by the American Great Drought (generally AD 1150-1450), which is blamed for the collapse of the Mound Builder culture (arguably a civilization). Their demise however is usually dated to the 13th century, so a little before the upper Mississippian peoples, which may not be surprising, given the difference in local climates.
Being tropical, the Mayan situation is a little different. The Terminal Classic phase dates from AD 800 to 900, so is more associated with climatic changes during the transition from the Dark Ages Cold Period to the MWP. One of the explanations for the collapse of Classical Mayan civilization is the known occurrence of “mega-droughts” in the Yucatán & Guatemala region about that time, aggravated by the thinness of tropical soils stripped of vegetation. In some areas, this causes laterite to form, impeding agriculture.

milodonharlani
July 7, 2014 6:22 pm

PS: The Oort Minimum is variously given as AD 1010-1050 or 1040-1080, so not really implicated in either of the cases about which you inquired. The Wolf however does jibe with the demise of the Anasazi, although maybe a little late, depending upon the uncertain dating of their collapse.

J Murphy
July 8, 2014 12:02 am

milodonharlani asks whether I am satisfied now? Well, reading the only credible, scientific link (A δ13C record of late Quaternary climate change from tropical peats in southern India), I don’t see how anyone could be! They mention “a short, wet phase about 600 years ago” which “appears to correspond to the Mediaeval Warm Period”. Does that mean that you believe the MWP occurred globally and simultaneously, albeit short, around 1400? That seems a lot later than the previous suggested dates of 800 to 1300.
As for RACookPE1978’s comment – Well, you believe what you want to and carry on insulting others you don’t appear to like, for some reason. I, and most others in the real world, will carry on using Wikipedia with the usual provisos of checking and backing-up with other sources given there and found externally.
I suggest an article on Groupthink as an example of how reliable Wikipedia can be: I don’t see any editing having been done by the supposedly all-powerful and dreaded William Connolley, so it should be OK for everyone to read.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink

RACookPE1978
Editor
July 8, 2014 5:52 am

milodonharlani says:
July 7, 2014 at 6:17 pm (replying to)

RACookPE1978 says:
July 7, 2014 at 5:43 pm

The Anasazi of the SW were clearly affected by the American Great Drought (generally AD 1150-1450), which is blamed for the collapse of the Mound Builder culture (arguably a civilization). Their demise however is usually dated to the 13th century, so a little before the upper Mississippian peoples, which may not be surprising, given the difference in local climates.
Being tropical, the Mayan situation is a little different. The Terminal Classic phase dates from AD 800 to 900, so is more associated with climatic changes during the transition from the Dark Ages Cold Period to the MWP.

Good points: But, is it correct to assume that the MWP will always behave the same worldwide? Would extended SW US droughts or northwest (Iowa-Ohio-Illinois droughts and Mayan droughts all be expected to occur at the same time? Or long cycles of El Nino (CA-AZ-NM drouths), or La Nina (TX-OK-LA central southern uS0 drouths be unexpected?

July 8, 2014 6:30 am

I get it now, the MWP is just misdirection. What the globalists, whoops! What the warmists are really concerned to hide is the LIA. Global glacial retreat is much harder to hide!!
/ no sarc intended!

July 8, 2014 6:53 am

Global glacial retreat is the ‘hero poster’ for alarmists. But it is the Achilles heal of global warming because the empirical evidence for the slow but steady retreat of glaciation since the LIA is impossible to hide.

F. Ross
July 8, 2014 8:30 am

“…
I don’t see any editing having been done by the supposedly all-powerful and dreaded William Connolley,
…”
It is to laugh. None so blind, etc.

July 8, 2014 8:43 am

J Murphy says:
…reading the only credible, scientific link…
In other words, Murphy cherry-picks the one item out of everything else that he believes supports his True Belief.
Murphy is far from being up to speed on Connolley, who has altered tens of thousands of Wikipedia articles, most all on climate issues. He changes them to lasso lemmings like Murphy, who shows here that it works.
I’ve often said that Wikipedia is OK for quantum physics and cosmology. But everything else is biased in one way or another — especially climate articles. They are just not credible, due to Connolley’s anti-science propaganda. Connolley deletes or alters anything that does not follow tha alarmist Narrative, and then people like Murphy actually believe what he reads at Wikipedia is factual. It isn’t.
If Murphy wanted to learn the truth, he would read WUWT for a few months in order to get up to speed. Right now he is at the cut and paste, cherry-picking stage.
Murphy does not want to learn the truth: that global warming stopped many years ago. That fact alone debunks the “carbon” scare that has become Murphy’s new religion.
At least 97% of all scientists accepted the MWP as a given twenty years ago. Then — as clearly shown in the Climategate email dump — the climate propagandists decided they had to “get rid of the MWP”. That was also testified to in a U.S. Senate hearing by Dr. David Deming.
The desperate and dishonest attempt to erase the MWP has failed because of sites like WUWT. But if not for the internet, clueless folks like Murphy would only be hearing that the MWP never existed. Now Murphy has a chance to learn the truth. Will he?
Based on our experience here, no. A new Ice Age could push glaiers down over Chicago again, a mile deep, and religious true believers like Murphy would still be parroting the Party line. Because peopaganda works on the simple minded.

J Murphy
July 8, 2014 11:52 am

If the MWP has been ‘erased’, ‘got rid of’ (and other dramatic descriptions), why does Wikipedia have a page on it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Warm_Period) with lots of references, and stating that it lasted “from about AD 950 to 1250”? That time-period seems to agree with what some people here, and the few credible references given, have also stated. Where’s the disappearance?
And the dreaded William Connolley doesn’t see to have made any changes for the last year and a half on that page, as far as I can see. Maybe he hasn’t done as thorough a job as you seem to believe?

July 8, 2014 12:18 pm

J Murphy,
You are reading into other comments things that were never said.
You are still far from being up to speed on Connolley’s Wikipedia shenanigans. As commented on WUWT recently [and many times in the past], Connolley uses a sockpuppet now to make changes, since he has been banned from altering comments. Why do you think he was banned? Because he was being honest? Is that what you think?
Let me ask you something, J Murphy: do you want to learn? Or do you just want to troll these comments? If you really want to learn, skeptics here can help you. But if you only want to run interference, you are doing an adequate job.

July 8, 2014 2:01 pm

> As commented on here recently [and many times in the past], Connolley uses a sockpuppet now to make changes, since he has been banned from altering comments.
This is a lie, in both parts. I’ve never used sock puppets, and have not been banned for altering comments.

Follow the Money
July 8, 2014 2:14 pm

RE: Lamb’s book “The English Climate” (1964 Second edition “rewritten” (first ed. 1954)”I mentioned somewhere above, I viewed it now. The subject graph or similar does not appear in this book. “Dickens” appears at p. 77, but not “Dickens winters” (see graph), so my trust in google books searching has been adjusted downward. (Dickens is cited for his relating London’s sooty fog)
The only 1k – like graph is at p. 165, going back to 1100 AD, showing on a decadal scale “summer dryness” and “winter character”

richardscourtney
July 8, 2014 2:34 pm

William C0nn0lley:
At July 8, 2014 at 2:01 pm you write saying in total

> As commented on here recently [and many times in the past], Connolley uses a sockpuppet now to make changes, since he has been banned from altering comments.

This is a lie, in both parts. I’ve never used sock puppets, and have not been banned for altering comments.

That is interesting but incomplete.
It is a matter of record that you were banned in the past. Why do you say that was?
Also, in light of the many falsehoods you have put on wicki, why should anybody believe anything you say?
Richard

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