About that graph…

clip_image001This one:

The title “Battle of the Graphs” certainly lives on, even though it is approaching a decade in age, as there has been a lot of off-topic contention on this WUWT thread as well as a free-for-all bashing over at the “Stoat” a.k.a. William Connolley (who “takes science by the throat”, implying he is some sort of “tough guy”) saying that this graph that appeared in a Telegraph article was erroneous and created by Christopher Monckton.

Based on the simplest available evidence, I was ready to conclude, as were many, that indeed Monckton had created the graph, that it was in error, and that he had refused to admit to any of this.  I was ready to censure him myself, just as the over-the-top Stoaters wanted to do, probably so Connolley could direct a new denigrating Wikipedia entry as he is known to do (he’s not allowed to edit Wikipedia pages of living persons anymore, so he directs by proxy). Now, after further investigation I can tell you I was wrong, and so is Connolley.

If Monckton was wrong I certainly would’ve had no trouble pointing this out just as the Stoaters were doing, but I have one advantage that neither Monckton nor the Stoaters have: I have actually worked at a newspaper and I have submitted articles as a guest author to newspapers. So, I am familiar with the artwork process. Further, I have also published a number of articles from Monckton myself here and I am quite familiar with his style of producing graphs.

Thus, I noticed something about the Telegraph article that no one else seemed to.

WUWT commenter Kevin O’Neill, who also frequents Connolley’s website pointed out in this comment the charges against Monckton.

First let’s have a look at the article itself. The URL for it is:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1533290/Climate-chaos-Dont-believe-it.html

A screencap of the heading portion is shown below with the highlight done by me in yellow.

Telegraph_monckton_2006

Unfortunately the link under the yellow highlight no longer works and so for some it is impossible to check Monckton’s references and calculations that were included with the essay. We’ll get back to that in a moment, please read on.

Here is how the article presented the graph that is in contention, I have screen captured a portion of the original Telegraph article:

Telegraph_monckton_2006_graph

Several things immediately struck me as being out of place when I first saw the graph after reading about the contention surrounding it, here is a list.

  • The style (colors, font, etc) is not anything like I’ve ever seen from Monckton in all the graphs he has submitted to WUWT.
  • The horizontal lines on the bottom portion of the graph are obviously spaced incorrectly (the 20th century average line looks like it is incorrect on left axis) along with other cues in the plot line indicating to me that they were hand-drawn yet I’ve never gotten the graph from Monckton that was hand-drawn. Everything he has ever sent me has always been from a computer program output, thus the idea of having improperly spaced lines and coordinates a hand drawn plot didn’t make sense to me.
  • My experience with newspapers told me that this was likely a graph that was prepared by the art department of the UK Telegraph. You see, all major newspapers and even some middle and minor ones have an art department. And, when they get some sort of illustration from a guest author, or data from a government report, they almost always redraw it to fit the style and format of the newspaper. Especially the colors and the fonts.

Just look at any major newspaper in the United States like USA Today when they get in data from say, the Labor Department, they produce their own graphs of that data. They can also make grievous mistakes with such data in the way it is presented such as this article from Charles Apple (who watches newspapers and the graphics and photos they produce) demonstrates:

110706UsaTodayWeatherSnapshot02[1]

Obviously, neither the editor nor the artist saw the sexual suggestion in the imagery. I don’t blame the NWS or the Red Cross who provided the data, I blame Doyle Rice and Julie Snider. Note the references at the bottom of the graphic.

Here, USA Today took data from the National Weather Service and the American Red Cross and turned it into what is obviously a ridiculous graphic. It got past the editor, and made it into the final publication.

I noted such references to internal artists, editors, and sources were missing from the UK Telegraph article as seen in the screen cap further above, and it is this omission that I believe led many people to conclude that Monckton produced that graphic.

If you examine other graphics from the UK Telegraph, you will find that they do have such references but they are also similarly designed and of a similar size with similar fonts and colors. For example, look at this graphic from 2005 that has been redrawn, but no mention given of an internal reference to The Telegraph art department:

Telegraph_GW_2005Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/4198339/Global-warming-will-bring-cooler-climate-for-UK.html

It is plainly obvious that is a graphic created by the newspaper and not by any scientific entity, otherwise it wouldn’t have the jagged shadow edges. So, the question surrounding the graph allegedly produced by Christopher Monckton is; did he included in the original list of references that he provided the Telegraph in that now missing link at the top of the original article? I’m happy to say I have found that original source file that Monckton provided to the Telegraph. It was lodged in the Wayback machine. I was able to find it simply by putting in the correct URL of the original Telegraph article as shown below:

https://web.archive.org/web/20090301000000*/http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1533290/Climate-chaos-Dont-believe-it.htmlWayback_Monckton_telegraph

When you pull up the archive from 2009, the link appears for the PDF file of Monckton’s references but unfortunately it gives a 404 as seen below:

Wayback_Monckton_telegraph2

Oddly though if you click on  the LEFT MOST vertical lines  (circa 2007/2008) in the timeline above, the PDF will actually download, and that is what I did. For those of you that would doubt this you can go here and try it yourself:

Click to access warm-refs.pdf

And for posterity, here is a local link to the PDF of the References Monckton provided for the Telegraph article in 2006: warm-refs

If you open that PDF file you will notice a number of graphs and references including the graph from IPCC section 7 graph C. McIntyre speaks of its source here.

But no trace of the exact artwork combination as presented above appears in the Telegraph article is in Monckton’s reference PDF file, clearly indicating that the telegraph art department redrew that 1990 IPCC graph and the hockey stick graph, changing the top-bottom order. Below is page 6 from Monckton’s “warm-refs” PDF file, showing those graphs:

Monckton_Warm_refs_page6

While I was ready to condemn Monckton for producing a sloppy graph like many of these Stoaters, it is now abundantly clear to me that he did not draw it and the claims by these people are erroneous and simply mendacious.

Stoat/Connelley is simply flat wrong, and the website that cited Monckton’s graphic as an example of what not to do needs to clarify that it was the newspaper that made the errors, that the source graphs came from the IPCC, and that Monckton drew none of them.

All this breastbeating over something that can be simply researched as I have done is just a waste of everyone’s time.

Monckton prepared a rebuttal as well which I present below.

=================================================================

There comes a point …

By Christopher Monckton of Brenchley

Those of us who have raised questions about the magnitude of Man’s influence on climate have become used to the expensively funded, often carefully co-ordinated campaigns of personal vilification organized by adherents of the Climatist Party Line. Occasionally we growl a little. More often we refuse to be distracted. We carry on.

The purpose of these relentless attacks on us is not only to do us down but also to frighten off third parties who might otherwise find the courage to speak out and express their own doubts about the Party Line.

But there comes a point when it is necessary to take action. I hope no one will disagree that that point is reached when allegations of lying or fabrication are made; when the allegations are unquestionably false; when they are persisted in despite requests to cease and desist; and when they are widely disseminated in a manner calculated baselessly to cause maximum reputational damage.

Recently a commenter at Jo Nova’s blog posted several comments to the effect that I had “faked” a graph. I quickly asked Jo to replace them with a note to say legal proceedings were in train. Enough, I had decided, was enough.

Here is the diagram I was supposed to have “faked”:

clip_image001

This surely blameless diagram appeared alongside an article I had written for the Sunday Telegraph on 5 November 2006, the first time I ever went public on the climate question. The article went live on the internet at midnight on a Saturday night. Two hours later the Telegraph’s website crashed, for 127,000 people had tried to access the article.

Now, it is not the custom of UK newspapers to ask their contributors to illustrate their articles. As usual, I was not consulted and offered no advice on the matter, and had no hand in their production and no foreknowledge that they were to be used. The graphs are not labeled as having been sourced from the IPCC (indeed, one of the graphs has the shadow of a hockey stick overlaid on it and marked as the “IPCC ‘hockey stick’”, making it blindingly obvious that it is not an official IPCC’s graph).

The Telegraph’s graphs are simple and, it seems to me, harmless schematics illustrating the difference between the representations of 1000 years’ global temperatures as they appeared in the IPCC’s 2001 (top) and 1990 (bottom) reports.

The graph from p. 202 of the IPCC’s 1990 report now looks like this:

clip_image003

With the article I supplied some background material for Telegraph readers on its website. In that material, the IPCC’s 1990 graph also appeared, mistakenly captioned as 1996 rather than 1990. The graph as I reproduced it looked like this:

clip_image005

What I had not realized until very recently was that for several years allegations had been circulated all over the place to the effect that I had fabricated the graphs that had appeared in the Sunday Telegraph article. Yet not one of those who had made these allegations had ever contacted me to verify the facts. And not one of them had said what was wrong with the Telegraph’s graphs anyway.

Perhaps the worst of the many allegations of dishonesty against me appeared on a “science education” website, where an entire section under the bold heading “Misuse of scientific images” was devoted to the Telegraph’s graphs.

The offending section contained the following untruths:

  • Ø that in that article I had “disputed the concept of climate change” (Not that old chestnut again! I had accepted the concept but queried its likely magnitude);
  • Ø that the Telegraph’s graphs were instances of “poor use of graphical displays” that “can confuse and obscure data” (No, they neatly showed the main point: in 1990 the medieval warm period and little ice age were shown clearly, but by 2001 both had gone, and a sharp uptick in the 20th century had been added);
  • Ø that I had “created the [1990] graph on the bottom using different calculations that did not take into account all of the variables that climate scientists used to create the top graph” (No, I had not created either graph or done any calculations for such a graph);
  • Ø that I had deployed “common techniques used to distort visual forms of data – manipulating axes, changing one of the variables in a comparison, changing calculations without full explanation – that can obscure a true comparison” (No, none of the above); and
  • Ø that the article had been published in the Daily Telegraph (No, the Sunday Telegraph, and that suggests the website had never seen the original article but had picked up the libel from somewhere else).

I only discovered that this spectacularly inaccurate and profoundly damaging infestation of allegations when the commenter at Jo Nova’s site who had accused me of “faking” the graph mentioned on his own blog that I had not objected to the libel as it appeared on the science-education website. I had not objected because I had not known about it. No one at that website had thought to check any of the facts with me, or, as far as one can tell, with anyone else.

In short order a letter before action was sent to the website, which promptly did the right thing and took out the entire section, though there are indications that attempts are being made in some quarters – unsuccessfully so far – to get them to put it back up again.

I gave the commenter at Jo Nova’s website who had accused me of “faking” the graphs several chances to retract and apologize. Instead, he and several others sneeringly doubled down by accusing me of “lying” when I had said the graphs at the Telegraph website had not purported to be, and had not been labeled as, IPCC graphs.

They also alleged that the graph in my background materials accompanying the Telegraph article was “not the same graph” as that from the IPCC’s 1990 report: in effect, that I had “faked” that one as well. Judge that for yourselves from the two monochrome versions of the graph above. There seem to me to be no material differences, and I think it would be hard for the defendants to convince a court that there were any.

So I am going to court. My lawyers say the libels are plain and indefensible. They comment additionally that no judge would regard the schematics in the Telegraph (whoever had drawn them) as significantly misrepresenting the difference between the 1990 and 2001 reports’ images of the past millennium’s global temperature anomalies. As far as they can see, there is not a lot wrong with the graphs in any event.

I have told this story not only because some commenters here have been unwise enough to repeat in threads here the allegations they have made elsewhere but also because I thought it might be time to reveal the steps we have to take on an almost weekly basis to try to stem the tide of false allegations directed at us.

Nor am I by any means the only victim. For years, this shadowy Propagandaamt has been tampering with Fred Singer’s Wikipedia page to allege that he believes in Martians.

Niklas Mörner, the sea-level expert, has had his page got at on the ground that he sometimes dowses for water or other underground treasure. My late father once did that for the Maltese Government, and found three lost Punic tombs and a fine marble head of Seneca from the first century AD. My drawing of it (in the day before digital cameras) is probably still to be found somewhere in the Museum of Classical Archaeology at Cambridge. But I never had the knack for dowsing myself.

A pressure-group founded and funded by Prince Charles is prone to intervene to try (unsuccessfully, the last time they tried it on me) to prevent the publication of skeptical scientific papers in British learned journals.

A team of paid hacks telephones the Chancellor and the Dean of the Faculty at every university at which skeptics are invited to speak. About half the time, they succeed in getting us disinvited.

Journal editors are sacked for printing papers by skeptics.

However much one might hope that scientific discourse can be conducted in an open atmosphere of sensible dialog, the truth is that on the climate it can’t, because the extremists won’t play fair. The Politburo are determined to keep the scare going for just a little longer, till they can get the Treaty of Paris safely signed by all nations in December 2015.

So I am going to court to defend myself and, in so doing against the constant barrage of falsehoods told in support of the Party Line. We went to court against Al Gore because his movie was poisonous political propaganda dressed up as science.

We won. Nothing else but a court case would have worked. It was only when the department of education in London were confronted with 80 pages of scientific testimony, and knew that that testimony would stand up in court against all their falsehoods and evasions, that they caved in and settled, paying $400,000 to the plaintiffs and undertaking to circulate 77 pages of corrective guidance to every school in England.

In the present case, the other side has blinked thrice. On the website of my defamer, there is a nervous little note that he will not give me his name and address unless I answer various impertinent questions of his. The court will have no patience with any nonsense of that sort.

And there are now various postings at the same blog, again rather nervous, saying that perhaps they could plead that I don’t have a reputation and they can accuse me of whatever they like.

They will be unwise to take that line. For if they say I have no reputation they have to be able to come up with evidence that any material detrimental to my reputation on which they may try to rely is true. And most of it is no more accurate than their accusations that I “faked” a graph that I had plainly not faked. If they waste the court’s time with point after point that has nothing to do with the case at hand, they will merely aggravate the damages they will have to pay.

Finally, the perp has been unwise enough to admit that at the time when he made his allegation of “fakery” he did not know whether I had “faked” the graph or not. In the courts, to make a damaging and untrue allegation not knowing whether or not it is true is as culpable as making it when one knows it is not true. And there is no defense once that admission has been made. It has been made.

There is a curious and touching notion among some skeptics that, since the truth will of course prevail in the end, we should persevere with the scientific argument but not take the defamers and the scamsters to court. The feeling is that using the courts somehow isn’t cricket.

Sometimes, though, it’s necessary to play hardball. Being Valiant for Truth is not for wimps.

================================================================

UPDATE:

From comments, Steve McIntyre finds another version of the Lamb/IPCC AR1 1990 graph, which looks to me to be much closer to the graph used in the Telegraph article. This graph does NOT appear in Monkton’s PDF.

He writes in a comment:

The lower panel of the Telegraph diagram appears to have derived from (what appears to be) a variation of the Lamb graphic, a variation that I had not noticed until now. The variation appears in the following blog posts (and visually matches almost exactly):

LAMB_2ndversion

http://drtimball.com/2011/they-are-still-trying-to-rewrite-climate-to-show-current-conditions-are-abnormal/

http://hockeyschtick.blogspot.ca/2009/12/from-mann-paper-in-nature.html

Neither blog post provides a citation for the figure, but there are clues that should enable its exact provenance to be tracked down fairly quickly. It appears to be from a book about European climate and have been developed by Lamb. It is unclear why the Telegraph would have used this variation instead of the IPCC 1990 variation, but doubtless we will find out in due course.

UPDATE2:

Nick Stokes adds in comments (bold mine):

There is a version of that graph at the John Daly site here. The article does not seem to be dated, but Daly is indicated as the author, which would make it 2004 or earlier. No source given.

Here is the graph from John Daly’s website, listed as figure 4:

And here is the Metadata, dating the creation of it precisely to Feb 10, 2004, two years before Monckton’s article in the Telegraph.

(right click on image at Daly’s website here to verify yourself)

John-Daly-Metadata-1000yrs

Nick Stokes adds in a second comment:

Steve McIntyre says: July 3, 2014 at 12:12 pm

“The lower panel of the Telegraph diagram appears to have derived from (what appears to be) a variation of the Lamb graphic, a variation that I had not noticed until now.”

Here, on the Wayback machine, is a version from 2001 on the John Daly site.

And the screencap:

John-Daly-solar-2001-wayback

Since Daly’s graph is a near perfect match for the one in the Telegraph, and appears as far back as April 21, 2001, and Monckton did not provide it in his PDF to the Telegraph, I’d say “case closed”.

UPDATE3:

There is some whingeing from Kevin O’Neill in comments that Figure 7.1c from IPCC AR1 WG1 chapter 7 (available here: http://www.ipcc.ch/ipccreports/far/wg_I/ipcc_far_wg_I_chapter_07.pdf ) was not “faithfully” reproduced in my article, even though I made a reference to a technical discussion at Climate Audit on that specific graph and the exact figure appears no less than 3 times in the essay split between my own and Monckton’s

If you open that PDF file you will notice a number of graphs and references including the graph from IPCC section 7 graph C. McIntyre speaks of its source here.

To satisfy such whingeing, here is the exact page from IPCC AR1 WG1 chapter 7, followed by a magnified view of figure 7.1 (including graphs A,B, and C) in case Mr. O’Neill wants to claim “a magnified version is needed for readers with poor eyesight” as part of his game. I challenge him and readers to find any material difference between the graphs below taken directly from the IPCC WG1 Chapter 7 page 202 and those in the essay.

 

IPCC_FAR_Figure 7-1_page202

Magnified figure 7.1abc:

IPCC_FAR_Figure 7-1abc

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milodonharlani
July 5, 2014 11:25 am

J Murphy says:
July 5, 2014 at 6:59 am
Chris’ title isn’t in the gentry; it’s noble, ie in the peerage. A viscount ranks fourth out of the five titles in the British nobility system, higher than baron but below earl (equivalent to count), marquess & duke. There are also royal dukes, lower than prince & of course king or queen regnant.

Keith
July 5, 2014 11:30 am

Hi Anthony,
You say towards the top of this article, among the points as to what was out of place about the graph in the Telegraph:

The horizontal lines on the bottom portion of the graph are obviously spaced incorrectly indicating to me that they were hand-drawn

Firstly, I agree that Lord Monckton is once again being maligned by the usual Rent-a-Mob puppets who shout down anyone disagreeing with their masters. He hasn’t faked anything here, nor does the graph as shown in the Telegraph show anything incorrect or spurious: the MWP peaks around 10C, with the modern warm period hitting around 9.5C for Europe, just like that from John Daly’s site, and follows the same shape as that from Hubert Lamb for the IPCC. Mann’s attempts to rub that out are nearer to fakery than anything alleged to have been done here by Monckton.
This point you make above, though, doesn’t appear to me to be an accurate one. I don’t see any obvious spacing errors in the lines showing the temperatures between 8.5C and 10.0C. Is the line showing the average 20th century temperature causing some confusion?
REPLY: Yes, I think you may be correct, though it wasn’t clear that was the 20th century average line to me, but I see the label in the midpoint. – Anthony

July 5, 2014 11:48 am

Nom, the game is to ask for the list but then snip it when it is provided. Or if it is allowed to be posted, it won’t be accepted. But first, Lord Monckton is not a member of the House Of Lords in spite of his many claims to be one. I expect the tedious lawyer’s opinion and the reinterpretation of the 1999 Act but I rather go with the authorities of the House the,selves when they say he is not a member of the House of Lords (oh, and when he did put himself up, presumably conceding the fact, he polled a stunning, massive zero).

July 5, 2014 1:05 pm

Margaret Hardman says:
Nom, the game is to ask for the list but then snip it when it is provided. Or if it is allowed to be posted, it won’t be accepted.
There is no “game”. This is a good test of Margaret Hardman’s credibility. She stated unequivocally that there is a ‘lengthy list’ of Lord Monckton “being economical with the truth”, AKA: lying. She was called on it.
Either Margaret Hardman will post a long [and verifiable] list of Monckton’s prevarications, or she was fabricating it. I can’t imagine Anthony snipping what he asked for. Instead, readers would have an easy time of refuting anything posted.
I wonder how Margaret feels now, being on the receiving end? LM has been attacked ad hominem constantly, for years. His offense? He posts solid science, and the alarmist cult does not like that one bit.
They cannot refute his science, so they lower themselves to making ad hominem attacks. They play the man, not the ball.
Alarmists lost the scientific debate long ago. Now they are just being sore losers.
REPLY: “I can’t imagine Anthony snipping what he asked for. Instead, readers would have an easy time of refuting anything posted.”
So, Margaret? Let’s see it. – Anthony

milodonharlani
July 5, 2014 1:08 pm

Here are Lamb’s reconstructed average yearly “PREVAILING TEMPERATURES (°C) IN CENTRAL ENGLAND”, based upon adjusted values given for winter & summer:
http://blog.lib.umn.edu/stgeorge/geog5426/Lamb%20Palaeogeography%20Palaeoclimatology%20Palaeoecology%201965.pdf
800-1000 9.2
1000-1100 9.4
1100-1150 9.6
1150-1200 10.2
1200-1250 10.1
1250-1300 10.2
1300-1350 9.8
1350-1400 9.5
1400-1450 9.1
1450-1500 9.0
1500-1550 9.3
1550-1600 8.8
1600-1650 8.8
1650-1700 8.7
1700-1750 9.24
1750-1800 9.06
1800-1850 9.12
1850-1900 9.12
1900-1950 9.41
1950-2000 9.?
2000-2014 9.?
I hope Tony Brown will provide valid CET numbers for last two periods. If central England has warmed ~0.7 degree C since 1900, then 1950-2014 might be as high as ~9.8 degrees. Even if it has been that warm there, then since 1900 has still been cooler than the balmiest 150 years of the MWP, as shown by the expunged IPCC graph, & the fastest rates of warming were after AD 1150 & 1700.

July 5, 2014 1:18 pm

Only someone entirely ignorant of the British system of peerages would think that holding the title ‘Lord’ is evident of a claim to be a sitting member of the House of Lords. They are two different things.

Simon
July 5, 2014 1:26 pm

So that is a couple of lists we are looking for here.
1. The economical with the truth comments of Christopher M?
2. The climate-related libel proceedings Christopher M has actually threatened, carried out, followed through with and won?
I would say both are entirely relevant to the thread, and I for one would love to see the length of both lists.

F. Ross
July 5, 2014 1:29 pm

Margaret Hardman says:
July 5, 2014 at 6:58 am
“… The good Lord’s list of being economical with the truth is lengthy.
…”

Based on Ms Hardman’s follow on comment it would seem that her statement (above) might, in itself, be interpreted as “economical with the truth”.
Knickers in a twist?

richardscourtney
July 5, 2014 1:39 pm

Margaret H@n:
I see that at July 5, 2014 at 11:48 am you have responded to a request for clarification from Non Nomen but you have yet to provide any response to my request for clarification.
I remind that at you made a post at July 5, 2014 at 6:58 am which claimed I had

lack of reading comprehension

In light of your thinking that, I would have thought you would have wanted to clarify something you wrote in that same post when I replied at July 5, 2014 at 7:51 am saying

Margaret Ha@n:
At July 5, 2014 at 6:58 am you assert

Lord Monckton’s own words suggest there is a case to answer

Really!? I am astonished to learn of that at this late stage.
Please quote and cite “Lord Monckton’s own words” which you assert “suggest there is a case to answer”. Or are you merely throwing an unjustifiable smear?

Obviously, your failure to reply to my request is an oversight which I now anticipate you will correct.
Richard

richardscourtney
July 5, 2014 1:44 pm

Jonathan Abbott:
Your post at July 5, 2014 at 1:18 pm says in total

Only someone entirely ignorant of the British system of peerages would think that holding the title ‘Lord’ is evident of a claim to be a sitting member of the House of Lords. They are two different things.

Only an egregious troll attempting to mislead about the British system of peerages would suggest that being a Member of the House of Lords is the same as being Sitting Member of the House of Lords. They are two different things.
Richard

milodonharlani
July 5, 2014 1:48 pm

Jonathan Abbott says:
July 5, 2014 at 1:18 pm
Please correct me if wrong, but IMO prior to 1999 a viscount would have been entitled to sit in the House of Lords. In that house of Parliament, “Lord” refers to noble peers of the realm(s). You’re right about “Lord”, of course, not automatically conferring such status even before the change, since it can also be a courtesy title. Members of the House of Lords were & are Lords Spiritual & Lords Temporal.

July 5, 2014 2:14 pm

They play the man, not the ball.
I see where I’ve been wrong all this time. I should have been playing the Mann, not the ball.
When Lord Monckton is confronted with errors in his science and presentations, he often resorts to letters to various principals and vice chancellors, threats of legal action and so on. I believe the proper answer is the one given in the Arkell v Pressdram case all those years ago.
I seem to remember that he chose to, let’s be generous, decide he had something better to do than continue to debate Peter Hadfield on this very site.
Ric@hard courtn@y, when Kevin was talking about the extra materials rather than the graph printed in the actual physical paper, you could not,or would not recognise that Kevin was talking about a different graph to you even when that was pointed out by Kevin. I realise it is a gambit to redirect the argument back to something that has been dealt with but someone of your intelligence should have understood what he meant. Someone of mine certainly did.

richardscourtney
July 5, 2014 2:39 pm

Margaret H@n:
Thankyou for the clarification you provide at July 5, 2014 at 2:14 pm in response to my request that said

Please quote and cite “Lord Monckton’s own words” which you assert “suggest there is a case to answer”. Or are you merely throwing an unjustifiable smear?

Your clarification makes it abundantly clear that you were merely throwing an unjustifiable smear.
Richard

J Murphy
July 5, 2014 3:01 pm

Jonathan Abbott, you wrote: “Only someone entirely ignorant of the British system of peerages would think that holding the title ‘Lord’ is evident of a claim to be a sitting member of the House of Lords”
If that is the case, what do you make of this comment by Christopher Monckton, 3rd Viscount Monckton of Brenchley:
“Finally, you may wonder why it is that a member of the Upper House of the United Kingdom legislature, wholly unconnected with and unpaid by the corporation that is the victim of your lamentable letter, should take the unusual step of calling upon you as members of the Upper House of the United States legislature either to withdraw what you have written or resign your sinecures.”
(http://news.heartland.org/newspaper-article/2007/02/01/british-lord-demands-end-climate-science-censorship)

richardscourtney
July 5, 2014 3:23 pm

J Murphy:
At July 5, 2014 at 3:01 pm you ask Jonathan Abbott a question which begins, “If that is the case, …”.
There have two posts by different people which explain it is not the case. And one wonders why you think it would be when it is asserted by Jonathan Abbott.
Richard

July 5, 2014 4:03 pm

J Murphy, regardless of what Viscount Monckton may or may not have said (it doesn’t interest me and I can’t be bothered to check), since the House of Lords was reformed a few years ago there are plenty of Britons who are members of the peerage who do not sit in the house of Lords.
Anyone who is unable to accept this simple fact only reveals their own ignorance. The only possible reason anyone has for raising this point is to mount an ad hominem attack.

July 5, 2014 5:20 pm

Margaret Hardman,
Anthony, I, and others have asked about your ‘lengthy list’ of Lord Monckton’s lies:
“So, Margaret? Let’s see it.”
But Margaret still posts no list. Her scurrilous ad hominem attack was baseless.
Instead, Margaret replied with a reference to Arkell v Pressdram, which we all know here as saying, “F___ off.”
Got your number, Margaret. You have zero credibility. And of course, no class.

J Murphy
July 5, 2014 11:37 pm

Jonathon Abbett, it is lucky, therefore, that there are others who are bothered about this and who wish to make sure that the ignorance on the matter is not allowed to increase :
“My predecessor, Sir Michael Pownall, wrote to you on 21 July 2010, and again on 30 July 2010, asking that you cease claiming to be a Member of the House of Lords, either directly or by implication. It has been drawn to my intention that you continue to make such claims.
I must therefore again ask that you desist from claiming to be a Member of the House of Lords, either directly or by implication, and also that you desist from claiming to be a Member ‘without the right to sit or vote’.
I am publishing this letter on the parliamentary website so that anybody who wishes to check whether you are a Member of the House of Lords can view this official confirmation that you are not.”
http://www.parliament.uk/documents/lords-information-office/2011/letter-to-viscount-monckton-20110715.pdf
Is that ad hominem or a wish to let the truth be out so that ignorance is not allowed to stand?

Non Nomen
July 6, 2014 12:13 am

Margaret Hardman says:
July 5, 2014 at 11:48 am
Nom, the game is to ask for the list but then snip it when it is provided. Or if it is allowed to be posted, it won’t be accepted.

_____________________________________
Well, you certainly must have misunderstood Anthony Watts who asked you to publish your list here. I’m pretty sure he won’ “snip” it, because he wants to know himself. But this (non-)problem can be avoided easily:
publish your lengthy list in any blog you like.
You do not even have to give a clue here because that news is going to spread by itself in no time.
Let the world know that you do deliver facts and not only nebulous, unverifiable insinuations.
Prove the world that you are not a lying slandersl*t, but a person whose word can be trusted.

richardscourtney
July 6, 2014 12:55 am

Jonathan Abbott:
Your post at July 5, 2014 at 4:03 pm can only be blatant and deliberate falsehood or an example of psychological projection. Your history of posts on WUWT does not indicate which of those two possibilities is the more likely on this occasion.
Your post says in total

J Murphy, regardless of what Viscount Monckton may or may not have said (it doesn’t interest me and I can’t be bothered to check), since the House of Lords was reformed a few years ago there are plenty of Britons who are members of the peerage who do not sit in the house of Lords.
Anyone who is unable to accept this simple fact only reveals their own ignorance. The only possible reason anyone has for raising this point is to mount an ad hominem attack.

YOU raised the subject of Viscount Monckton being a Member of the House of Lords (HoL) when you provided a post at July 5, 2014 at 1:18 pm which said in total

Only someone entirely ignorant of the British system of peerages would think that holding the title ‘Lord’ is evident of a claim to be a sitting member of the House of Lords. They are two different things.

And, according to you, “The only possible reason anyone has for raising this point is to mount an ad hominem attack.”
Importantly, your self-admitted “ad hominem attack” provided a falsehood (as do most of your statements on WUWT). Your “attack” on Viscount Monckton pretended that being a Member of the HoL is the same as being a Sitting Member of the HoL. They are NOT the same: only Sitting Members can speak in the Chamber and can vote on matters there discussed. Viscount Monckton is a Member of the HoL and says he is. As is your common practice, you have introduced a ‘red herring’.
Richard

July 6, 2014 1:45 am

The 3rd Viscount Monckton of Brenchley is not now, now has he ever been, a member of the House of Lords. http://www.parliament.uk/business/news/2011/july/letter-to-viscount-monckton/. That much is plain and simple and stated in my link.
That his lordship has said words to the contrary is also beyond doubt. That he stood for election to the House in 2007 is also beyond doubt. I haven’t had breakfast yet so I might still have time for some impossible beliefs but this cannt be one of them. So, Richard, you are plain wrong.

July 6, 2014 2:12 am

Margaret Hardman,
You are being redundant. That same letter was posted in a link just a few comments up. Is that really the best you can do?
A few points:
1) That is one item, which is merely a difference of opinion. Only the monarch can make a definitive ruling on the matter. Differences of opinion cannot be arbitrarily classified as “being economical with the truth” [AKA: lying].
2) With a couple of dozen more items, you could possibly claim that you have “a lengthy list” of lies told by Lord Monckton. But as of right now your credibility remains at zero.
3) This is about you, Margaret Hardman. It is not about Lord Monckton, who stands on his science. You have no credible science to support your alarmist beliefs, and your low class response was to mount ad hominem attacks against a person, rather than to argue the science.
At this point the simplest way out for you is to apologize for your baseless and scurrilous accusation. Labeling someone you disagree with as a liar is not some minor pejorative. It is a monumental insult that is disallowed in Parliamentary debate. It goes directly to the credibility and character of the accused. The only thing worse is when the labeler is bearing false witness, like you are.
You have not produced a long list of purported lies, because you cannot. An ethical, stand-up person would admit that she got emotional, and made a false statement. An apology would allow you to move on.
Otherwise, every comment you make from now on will be an opportunity to show readers what kind of a person you are. And it isn’t pretty.

Steve Milesworthy
July 6, 2014 2:34 am

There is some context missing from this analysis of the graph that appeared in the Telegraph.
Now it may be true that the author of a newspaper article normally does not see the art-work that is next to the article, and it would be perfectly reasonable to assume that the same occurred in this case.
However, this was not a normal article. The article was published alongside a two-part pull-out. I assume warm-refs.pdf is the contents of that pull-out, based on George Monbiot’s contemporaneous analysis.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/nov/14/science.comment
I would say that this was a somewhat unprecedented publication. The Telegraph is a big “quality” (as opposed to tabloid) newspaper in the UK and at in 2006 was being bought by one in thirty homes (650,000 copies). So to include, at great expense, a two-part pull-out on a complex scientific subject by someone who admits to not being a scientist, was a very surprising decision and must have involved a lot of discussion with the most senior editors.
So there was a great deal more to this publication than some journalist or commenter filing a copy to the editor for the editor to deal with how he pleases.

gnomish
July 6, 2014 2:36 am

i only checked to read stealey, cuz i usually like his comments.
richard- it looks to me like abbot didn’t say what you think he said… if it matters…

Non Nomen
July 6, 2014 3:11 am

Steve Milesworthy says:
July 6, 2014 at 2:34 am

I would say that this was a somewhat unprecedented publication. The Telegraph is a big “quality” (as opposed to tabloid) newspaper in the UK and at in 2006 was being bought by one in thirty homes (650,000 copies). So to include, at great expense, a two-part pull-out on a complex scientific subject by someone who admits to not being a scientist, was a very surprising decision and must have involved a lot of discussion with the most senior editors.
So there was a great deal more to this publication than some journalist or commenter filing a copy to the editor for the editor to deal with how he pleases.
___________________________________________
Some really interesting background you mention here. What did the telegraphists say or what are they going to say in court? How did THEY handle that delicate matter? And can we trust in a newspaper that seems to have manipulated data? Maybe Lord Monckton can tell more about the procedures at the Telegraph, since he had been a publisher himself?

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