Maunder and Dalton Sunspot Minima

Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach

In a recent interchange over at Joanne Nova’s always interesting blog, I’d said that the slow changes in the sun have little effect on temperature. Someone asked me, well, what about the cold temperatures during the Maunder and Dalton sunspot minima? And I thought … hey, what about them? I realized that like everyone else, up until now I’ve just accepted the idea of cold temperatures being a result of the solar minima as an article of faith … but I’d never actually looked at the data. And in any case, I thought, what temperature data would we have for the Maunder sunspot minimum, which lasted from 1645 to 1715? So … I went back to the original sources, which as always is a very interesting ride, and I learned a lot.

It turns out that this strong association of sunspot minima and temperature  is a fairly recent development. Modern interest in the Maunder sunspot minimum was sparked by John Eddy’s 1976 publication of a paper in Science entitled “The Maunder Minimum”. In that paper, Eddy briefly discusses the question of the relationship between the Maunder sunspot minimum and the global temperature, viz:

The coincidence of Maunder’s “prolonged solar minimum” with the coldest excursion of the “Little Ice Age” has been noted by many who have looked at the possible relations between the sun and terrestrial climate (73). A lasting tree-ring anomaly which spans the same period has been cited as evidence of a concurrent drought in the American Southwest (68, 74). There is also a nearly 1 : 1 agreement in sense and time between major excursions in world temperature (as best they are known) and the earlier excursions of the envelope of solar behavior in the record of 14C, particularly when a 14C lag time is allowed for: the Sporer Minimum of the 16th century is coincident with the other severe temperature dip of the Little Ice Age, and the Grand Maximum coincides with the “medieval Climatic Optimum” of the 11th through 13th centuries (75, 76). These coincidences suggest a possible relationship between the overall envelope of the curve of solar activity and terrestrial climate in which the 11-year solar cycle may be effectively filtered out or simply unrelated to the problem. The mechanism of this solar effect on climate may be the simple one of ponderous long-term changes of small amount in the total radiative output of the sun, or solar constant. These long-term drifts in solar radiation may modulate the envelope of the solar cycle through the solar dynamo to produce the observed long-term trends in solar activity. The continuity, or phase, of the 11-year cycle would be independent of this slow, radiative change, but the amplitude could be controlled by it. According to this interpretation, the cyclic coming and going of sunspots would have little effect on the output of solar radiation, or presumably on weather, but the long-term envelope of sunspot activity carries the indelible signature of slow changes in solar radiation which surely affect our climate (77). [see paper for references]

Now, I have to confess, that all struck me as very weak, with more “suggest” and “maybe” and “could” than I prefer in my science. So I thought I’d look to see where he was getting the temperature data to support his claims. It turns out that he was basing his opinion of the temperature during the Maunder minimum on a climate index from H. H. Lamb, viz:

The Little Ice Age lasted roughly from 1430 to 1850 … if we take H. H. Lamb’s index of Paris London Winter Severity as a global indicator.

After some searching, I found the noted climatologist H. H. Lamb’s England winter severity index in his 1965 paper The Early Medieval Warm Epoch And Its Sequel. He doesn’t give the values for his index, but I digitized his graph. Here are Lamb’s results, showing the winter severity in England. Lower values mean more severe winters.

So let me pose you a small puzzle. Knowing that Eddy is basing his claims about a cold Maunder minimum on Lamb’s winter severity index … where in Lamb’s winter severity index would you say that we would find the Maunder and Dalton minima? …

lamb england winter index wo datesFigure 1. H.H. Lamb’s index of winter severity in England.

As you can see, there is a reasonable variety in the severity of the winters in England. However, it is not immediately apparent just where in there we might find the Maunder and Dalton minima, although there are several clear possibilities. So to move the discussion along, let me reveal where they are:

lamb england winter index wrong datesFigure 2. As in Figure 1, but with the dates of the Maunder and Dalton minima added.

As we might expect, the Maunder minimum is the coldest part of the record. The Dalton minimum is also cold, but not as cold as the Maunder minimum, again as we’d expect. Both of them have warmer periods both before and after the minima, illustrating the effect of the sun on the … on the … hang on … hmmm, that doesn’t look right … let me check my figures …

… uh-oh

Well, imagine that. I forgot to divide by the square root of minus one, so I got the dates kinda mixed up, and I put both the Maunder and the Dalton 220 years early … here are the actual dates of the solar minima shown in Lamb’s winter severity index.

lamb england winter index w datesFigure 3. H.H. Lamb’s England winter severity index, 1100-1950, overlaid with the actual dates of the four solar minima ascribed to that period. Values are decadal averages 1100-1110,1110-1120, etc., and are centered on the decade.

As you can see …

• The cooling during the Wolf minimum is indistinguishable from the two immediately previous episodes of cooling, none of which get much below the overall average.

• The temperature during the Sporer minimum is warmer than the temperature before and after the minimum.

• The coldest and second coldest decades in the record were not associated with solar minima.

• The fastest cooling in the record, from the 1425 decade to the 1435 decade, also was not associated with a solar minimum.

• Contrary to what we’d expect, the Maunder minimum warmed from start to finish.

• The Dalton minimum is unremarkable in any manner other than being warmer than the decade before the start and the decade after the end of the minimum. Oh, and like the Maunder, it also warmed steadily over the period of the minimum.

Urk … that’s what Eddy based his claims on. Not impressed.

Let me digress with a bit of history. I began this solar expedition over a decade ago thinking, along with many others, that as they say, “It’s the sun, stupid!”. I, and many other people, took it as an unquestioned and unexamined “fact” that the small variations of the sun, both the 11-year cycles and the solar minima, had a discernible effect on the temperature. As a result, I spent endless hours investigating things like the barycentric movement of the sun. I went so far as to write a spreadsheet to calculate the barycentric movement for any period of history, and compared those results to the temperatures.

But the more I looked, the less I found. So I started looking at the various papers claiming that the 11-year cycle was visible in various climate datasets … still nothing. To date, I’ve written up and posted the results of my search for the 11-year cycle in global sea levels, the Central England Temperature record, sea surface temperatures, tropospheric temperatures, global surface temperatures, rainfall amounts, the Armagh Observatory temperatures, the Armagh Observatory daily temperature ranges, river flows, individual tidal stations, solar wind, the 10Beryllium ice core data, and some others I’ve forgotten … nothing.

Not one of them shows any significant 11-year cycle.

And now, for the first time I’m looking at temperature effects of the solar minima … and I’m in the same boat. The more I look, the less I find.

However, we do have some actual observational evidence for the time period of the most recent of the minima, the Dalton minimum, because the Berkeley Earth temperature record goes back to 1750. And while the record is fragmentary and based on a small number of stations, it’s the best we have, and it is likely quite good for comparison of nearby decades. In any case, here are those results:

berkeley earth land temperature plus daltonFigure 4. The Berkeley Earth land temperature anomaly data, along with the Dalton minimum.

Once again, the data absolutely doesn’t support the idea of the sun ruling the temperature. IF the sun indeed caused the variations during the Dalton minimum, it first made the temperature rise, then fall, then rise again to where it started … sorry, but that doesn’t look anything like what we’d expect. For example, if the low spot around 1815 is caused by low solar input, then why does the temperature start rising then, and rise steadily until the end of the Dalton minimum, while the solar input is not rising at all?

So once again, I can’t find evidence to support the theory. As a result, I will throw the question open to the adherents of the theory … what, in your estimation, is the one best piece of temperature evidence that shows that the solar minima cause cold spells?

Now, a few caveats. First, I want to enlist your knowledge and wisdom in the search, so please just give me your one best shot. I’m not interested in someone dumping the results of a google search for “Maunder” on my desk. I want to know what YOU think is the very best evidence that solar minima cause global cooling.

Next, don’t bother saying “the Little Ice Age is the best evidence”. Yes, the Maunder occurred during the Little Ice Age (LIA). But the Lamb index says that the temperature warmed from the start of the Maunder until the end. Neither the Maunder’s location, which was quite late in the LIA, nor the warming Lamb shows from the start to the end of the Maunder, support the idea that the sun caused the LIA cooling.

Next, please don’t fall into the trap of considering climate model results as data. The problem, as I have shown in a number of posts, is that the global temperature outputs of the modern crop of climate models are nothing but linear transforms of their inputs. And since the models include solar variations among their inputs, those solar variations will indeed appear in the model outputs. If you think that is evidence for solar forcing of temperature … well, this is not the thread for you. So no climate model results, please.

So … what do you think is the one very best piece of evidence that the solar minima actually do affect the temperature, the evidence that you’d stand behind and defend?

My regards to you all,

w.

[UPDATE] In the comments, someone said that the Central England Temperature record shows the cooling effects of the solar minima … I’m not finding it:

As you can see, there is very little support for the “solar minima cause cool temperatures” hypothesis in the CET. Just as in the Lamb winter severity data and the Berkeley Earth data, during both the Dalton and Maunder minima we see the temperature WARMING for the last part of the solar minimum. IF the cause is in fact a solar slump … then why would the earth warm up while the sun is still slumping? And in particular, in the CET the Dalton minimum ends up quite a bit warmer than it started … how on earth does this support the “solar slump” claim, that at the end of the Dalton minimum it’s warmer than at the start?

The Usual Request: I know this almost never happens, but if you disagree with something that I or someone else has said, please have the common courtesy to QUOTE THEIR EXACT WORDS that you disagree with. This prevents much confusion and misunderstanding.

Data: Eddy’s paper, The Maunder Minimum

Lamb’s paper, The Early Medieval Warm Epoch And Its Sequel

Berkeley Earth, land temperature anomalies

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Editor
June 25, 2014 1:03 pm

Leif writes:

It is quite simple: temperature the last 300 years has been increasing while solar activity has not.

How about:

It is quite simple: solar activity climbed dramatically 350 years 300 years ago and temperatures have been climbing ever since, with a few notable wiggles. It climbed most sharply in the two periods when solar activity was highest: 1750-1800 and 1950-2000, it flattened or dipped during the Dalton Minimum and the turn-to-the-20th-century lull, and it rose when the sun came out of the turn of the century lull. There were also some temperature wiggles like the 1950s-70s cooling that don’t correspond to any theorized external forcings and are presumably due to ocean oscillations. Oh and let’s not forget: temperatures stopped climbing when solar activity dropped towards the end of Cycle 23.

The demonstrated existence of substantial internal-variation “noise” makes it hard to assess the impact of any theorized forcing over decadal time scales, especially when looking at only a couple of hundred years of data. Even so, the observed sunspot record matches up quite well with temperature variation over this period. These 400 years of the observed sunspot record are supposed to provide the case AGAINST a solar driver of climate? Absurd.
[UPDATE: As a placeholder I originally put “350 years” in my draft comment because I figured Leif wouldn’t have been wrong about solar activity already being high “300 years” ago, then right after I posted I remembered to check the record (Steinhilber) and edited my comment about a minute later. Sorry for the inconvenience.]

Pamela Gray
June 25, 2014 1:05 pm

Sturgis, don’t worry about the stake. If one is used it needs to be a very long and sturdy one to get through the mounting evidence that TOA solar factors were NOT the triggers or sustainers of the LIA and that a more plausible explanation is building. As for waiting, you can wait as long as you wish and be as opposing as you wish. For my part, there is no need for me to restate my case.

Lester Via
June 25, 2014 1:16 pm

I find this to be an interesting thread, not all because of Willis original post but, in particular, the reaction it’s getting. All Willis has said is that he cannot find a statistically significant trace of the 11 year solar cycle in certain surface temperature data – a truism that he and most everyone else has previously accepted without question. He has looked for data showing such a signal without success and now suspects that the sunspot cycle’s effect on surface temperatures has been exaggerated and consequently asks for a single dataset that shows shows a significant 11 year signal – a very reasonable request. Rather than simply providing what he has asked for, he is being treated by some as a heretic instead. Very similar to the reaction AGW skeptics get from those that have been taught over their entire educational process that man is screwing up the earth’s climate.
Just because all processes that drive weather and climate are powered by the sun doesn’t mean that small variations in that power can easily be detected in measurements that are the result of many chaotic processes.

June 25, 2014 1:16 pm

Pamela Gray says:
June 25, 2014 at 1:00 pm
Any hair tearing will not be by “solar enthusiasts” but by climate skeptics in general. You truly are sleeping with the enemy now.
Models show what they are programmed to show. GIGO. Warmunistas have fallen back on volcanoes as one of the last refuges of scoundrels desperate to keep peddling GHG snake oil in the face of the plateau or downward slope in GAST.
Here you cite a paper in which simulations are compared with simulations. As Willis would say, “Garbage!”
“Abstract. We investigate the relative role of volcanic eruptions,
El Niño–Southern Oscillation (ENSO), and the quasibiennial
oscillation (QBO) in the quasi-decadal signal in the
tropical stratosphere with regard to temperature and ozone
commonly attributed to the 11 yr solar cycle. For this purpose,
we perform transient simulations with the Whole Atmosphere
Community Climate Model forced from 1960 to
2004 with an 11 yr solar cycle in irradiance and different
combinations of other forcings. An improved multiple linear
regression technique is used to diagnose the 11 yr solar signal
in the simulations. One set of simulations includes all observed
forcings, and is thereby aimed at closely reproducing
observations. Three idealized sets exclude ENSO variability,
volcanic aerosol forcing, and QBO in tropical stratospheric
winds, respectively. Differences in the derived solar response
in the tropical stratosphere in the four sets quantify the impact
of ENSO, volcanic events and the QBO in attributing
quasi-decadal changes to the solar cycle in the model simulations.
The novel regression approach shows that most of
the apparent solar-induced lower-stratospheric temperature
and ozone increase diagnosed in the simulations with all observed
forcings is due to two major volcanic eruptions (i.e.,
El Chichón in 1982 and Mt. Pinatubo in 1991). This is caused
by the alignment of these eruptions with periods of high solar
activity. While it is feasible to detect a robust solar signal
in the middle and upper tropical stratosphere, this is not the
case in the tropical lower stratosphere, at least in a 45 yr simulation.
The present results suggest that in the tropical lower
stratosphere, the portion of decadal variability that can be
unambiguously linked to the solar cycle may be smaller than
previously thought.”
The authors have “investigated” only their computer programming ability. Please come back when you have some of the actual evidence for which you’ve been asked over and over. For starters, where is the climatic signature of the 1257 eruption?
As for the topic of the execrable computer printout you’ve been shameless enough to cite, did you notice that the perpetrators attribute warming to the volcanic activity, not cooling. They say that this is because the eruptions occurred during periods of high solar activity. So with all this natural warming going on, the main driver is supposed to be man-made GHG forcing?
Could this garbage possibly be any trashier?
As I keep saying, you need to quit digging your hole deeper and start trying to climb out. I refrained from repeating myself to that effect when you posted revised sulfate data which showed yet again how dead wrong you are.

June 25, 2014 1:18 pm

Lester Via says:
June 25, 2014 at 1:16 pm
How did you miss all the links provided here and in prior posts which do show an 11 year cycle, and which Willis has studiously ignored or pooh-poohed, refusing even to consider for one lame excuse or another?

June 25, 2014 1:21 pm

Pamela Gray says:
June 25, 2014 at 1:05 pm
If you think you have mounting evidence, please supply it, as you haven’t yet done so here, despite being asked for it over and over again. All you’ve done is provided support for the proposition that a volcano did not cause the LIA.
You’ve got nada, zip, zilch. All you have said has been negative.toward your unsupported position, not positive.

Tom in Florida
June 25, 2014 1:27 pm

Salvatore Del Prete says:
June 25, 2014 at 12:24 pm
“http://www.giss.nasa.gov/research/features/200611_paleoclimatology/
This is one of many studies which refutes the nonsense being put forth on this site.”
————————————————————————————————————————
Your kidding, right? Gavin Schmidt’s older models and a GISS report from 2006 are what you are claiming to be the proof?

Pamela Gray
June 25, 2014 1:29 pm

Sturgis, I supplied the documented and linked climatic events on civilization as well as the temperature proxies following the eruption upthread. That you say I haven’t simply means you have not read my comments or the research I linked to. I will not keep repeating those links. It has come to a ridiculous point on your end. Stop it with the “no evidence” meme. You are beginning to act like a toddler who has demanded candy after being told no.

climatereason
Editor
June 25, 2014 1:32 pm

Willis
At 9.38 you said;
‘I hope that this makes my objections clearer. Look, I don’t think your a bad guy. I just think you’re in over your head, and you don’t really understand the nature of the guy you’ve gotten in bed with. Please, please, I implore you. Spend a week or so over at ClimateAudit, and do your homework. Mann is not a scientist of any stripe, and for you to discuss him as such damages your reputation and makes you look like a fool.’
Willis, I try to treat you with respect and it would be nice if you would reciprocate. I have previously said that I have written numerous climate related articles and tens of thousands of words in blog comments, many of them in trying to dismember the hockey stick. Of COURSE I am aware of all the numerous ins and outs of this sorry piece of science and have spent much time over the years at Climate Audit, though I rarely comment. How could I not be aware of the debate?
You earlier commented;
“I said that for you to bring up his work and say it was “essentially confirmed” was PR for Mann that he couldn’t purchase at any price. Remember, he has attacked Judith bitterly … and there you are on Judith’s blog, blithely quoting the nonsensical NAS report to laud him as though that report had any more value than Mann’s work itself. You are way in over your head, Tony, clearly you haven’t done your homework.”
Bearing in mind you had earlier said I was (to paraphrase) inconsequential (which I am) how I had therefore managed to give MM such a boost to his credibility must remain a mystery. However, more to the point is that Judith Curry provides huge help, guidance and input to those who write articles for her. She never believed I was providing a career boost to Dr Mann and nor has anyone else who has read it but you it appears.
The always excellent Matthew Marler astutely said;
‘That you quote McIntyre with respect but say of tonyb’s efforts that if he lies down with dogs he’ll get up with fleas is an inconsistency. Mann’s works must be debated and rebutted in the scientific literature, and anyone who does that is your “natural ally”. Debating Mann in public is the only way to reduce his influence in the long run.’
Mann’s HS and its descendants remain wholly dominant in the wider climate debate. From personal conversation I know the IPCC reviewers I have met believe in it. The Met office believes in it, my MP believes in it, my Government and the Opposition believes in it. The EU believes in it, your President believes in it and 97% of all scientists believe in it (British irony Willis) To believe the study is dead buried and discredited and we should all move on whilst hurling insults at the much lauded author, seems to me to be demonstrably false.
Here is the point. You believe the debate is done and dusted because a few sceptics hopefully say so. The wider and much more influential world however doesn’t appear to realise their hero has been utterly vanquished and continue to act as if the Hockey sticks’ findings still have relevance. We will therefore have a difference in approach to the beast. I believe we need to debate it and attempt to challenge it and its descendants in their core belief of the non variability of past climate, whilst you choose to call Dr Mann a ‘crook’ and believe the debate is over.
I bear you no animosity Willis and to demonstrate it I have a challenge for you in order to see whose world view is right.
I suggest we jointly write an article entitled;
‘Is the Hockey Stick dead, buried and discredited…..or does its influential descendants live on? ‘
You will write in favour of the proposition whilst I will attempt to show that this particular hydra has many heads and remains as influential as ever.
We could ask Anthony Watts and Judith Curry to carry the article simultaneously as each will have a different audience. Are you up for it?
tonyb

June 25, 2014 1:41 pm

Pamela Gray says:
June 25, 2014 at 1:29 pm
You most certainly did not provide temperature proxies for any effect from the c. 1257 eruption(s). You provided a link to a general temperature reconstruction site of NOAA’s NCDC, ie Jones and Mann! But not a single link at that site says anything at all about the civilization or temperature effects of any 1257 event. Is that really how they practice “science” at your school?
That you’ve provided not a single scrap of actual evidence to support your baseless assertion is not a “meme”; it’s a fact of which you should be ashamed. Unless you posted something other than in the comment containing the NCDC site, which is the apparent basis for claim about temperature.
Your lack of response amid continued repeated unfounded assertion is truly shocking.

June 25, 2014 1:47 pm

Williis Eschenbach says:
  June 25, 2014 at 10:33 am
Nikola, ……….and so on ……..,
Willis, all of what you said in the above specified dates corresponds honest intentions, but there is one big problem about weather forecasting and climate change. It is this: I found and checked my one assumption, which are the main causes of which are consequences of various changes in the sun. These changes and the appearance of the sun are just indicators of something much more powerful than many suppose. Sunspots the cycle of about 11 years, the simplest case of events, a different time cycles, which is the basis of 11.2 years, were different and the duration and intensity far reaching impact of these pathogens. Yes this is my check, I need a program with lots of astronomical data when obtaining numerous diagrams and tables, can then be compared with past events, check the accuracy of the data and later make and present all possible cycles at all times. Problem is, in this sense, for me, a difficult and unworkable no established program to my idea of ​​the events. For a confirmation of a time some events kick hundreds, even thousands of calculations for some of the formula, and such points can be established for almost every second of time. Another problem, which I do not possess the necessary astronomical data, which must be true if you want accuracy in drawing a diagram as a function of time for a lot of influential elements. That’s why I mentioned that it is necessary to make a contractual commitment with powerful institutions such as NASA and the government of America. It is very difficult I am to do. That’s why I’m looking for some collaborators, so if you have an interest, and I am convinced that I am on the right path.

Lester Via
June 25, 2014 1:50 pm

sturgishooper says:
June 25, 2014 at 1:18 pm
“How did you miss all the links provided here and in prior posts which do show an 11 year cycle, and which Willis has studiously ignored or pooh-poohed, refusing even to consider for one lame excuse or another?”
Willis asked for one dataset link – the best example that shows an 11 year cycle. That way he would only have to look and comment once. I can understand his request.

June 25, 2014 1:55 pm

lsvalgaard says:
“It is quite simple: temperature the last 300 years has been increasing while solar activity has not.”
Most of the rise we see over the last 300 years occurred since 1988:
http://snag.gy/LefLV.jpg

June 25, 2014 2:12 pm

http://www.actuaries.org/HongKong2012/Papers/WBR9_Walker.pdf
Tom, maybe this will be more convincing. There are hundreds more.

June 25, 2014 2:16 pm

Pamela Gray says:
June 25, 2014 at 1:49 pm
Yet again, my comments to which you have not been able to respond:
No one denies that around 1257-59 in the records of both poles, there is a sulfate spike. The main issue is that sulfate loading effects are non-linear, as your own source insisted. The second issue is that you have utterly failed to show any effect from this spike in the climate record, let alone one lasting long enough to cause the LIA. The third issue is snow accumulation, which, despite Gao, has not been adequately adjusted, not that it matters, since, see main issue above.
Your source says “one of the biggest”, not “the biggest”, as you asserted. It claims an estimated magnitude of seven, yet in the very same abstract, it give the concrete figure of 40 km^3 of tephra (dense rock equivalent), which is mid-6. I showed you how VEI is calculated, not by me but by the AGU. The paper’s authors may claim a seven, but that’s not what the data show. Maybe in the body of their work they try to justify that rating, which on its face is at odds with the AGU system.
Your paper on “climatic” effects is limited to local European weather events down to 1261, which it compares to Tambora’s “year without a summer”, which of course occurred during the LIA, not the MWP. The paper’s discussion of “climatic” effects is likewise limited to a few years at most. No wonder you didn’t want to copy and paste its actual verbiage. I said at the outset that there were “extreme” weather events in late 13th century Europe. There was also the Great Famine in early 14th century Europe, without benefit of sulfurous volcano.
However, if you do as Lamb and scientists before and after him (1965) have done, ie use proxy and actual thermometer readings, it’s clear that the depths of the LIA didn’t kick in until around AD 1500. Here is a link in which you can find his CET analysis:
http://blog.lib.umn.edu/stgeorge/geog5426/Lamb%20Palaeogeography%20Palaeoclimatology%20Palaeoecology%201965.pdf
There may well have been an effect on weather. Climate, not so much.

June 25, 2014 2:18 pm

http://strat-www.met.fu-berlin.de/labitzke/moreqbo/MZ-Labitzke-et-al-2006.pdf
Another one, This will be the last one for now. All of these and so much more refute much of what is being said by certain persons on this site. Let ‘s get some balance here.

June 25, 2014 2:22 pm

Lester Via says:
June 25, 2014 at 1:50 pm
Willis was provided “just one” link over and over again, but rejected even considering it, then asked for another. Please read the comments in his last or prior posts on looking for a ~11 year signal in climatic data sets. When selecting his own from those proffered, he cherry picked those he felt he could best attack.
Now today, yet again, when new and old links and studies are provided here, he’s suddenly absent again. I hope he will comment on the contents of Meehl, for instance, this time instead of dismissing it out of hand because of its modeling, without looking at the studies it cites in support of an 11 year signal, or at one of the Chilean studies, also retreads he refused to consider before, since no one selected one for him, yet he has no problem with choosing his own to examine.
If he wants me to pick one for him, then how about the easiest, the last one linked about Southern Hemisphere tree rings and precipitation? But there is so much in Meehl, IMO he really should look into all the studies cited therein.

June 25, 2014 2:30 pm

lsvalgaard says:
“It is quite simple: temperature the last 300 years has been increasing while solar activity has not.”
What nonsense. Solar activity has been on a tear post Dalton. More info to follow.

Pamela Gray
June 25, 2014 2:30 pm

Comprehensive review of temperature reconstructions over the past 2000 years. If you look at the graphs, it is clear that the slide towards the commonly held (which is up for debate) view of the LIA, it stand out quite clearly as to when that slide began. At issue here is the “knee” point of the slide. That “knee” occurs prior to 1400 AD. If you cannot see that, I cannot provide more because I will have to conclude you do not want to view this debate in a straightforward non-agenda fashion.
Warning: The report includes the likes of Jones and Mann in reconstruction work among others.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCkQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fdels.nas.edu%2Fdels%2Frpt_briefs%2FSurface_Temps_final.pdf&ei=yj2rU-TeGYa1yAT0ooG4Ag&usg=AFQjCNE1sKnvR8zZtMQO-zyE0wmXwgx0bw&sig2=OBayis9Diw37kXzVhGGOsA&bvm=bv.69620078,d.aWw

Tonyb
June 25, 2014 2:36 pm

Sturgis
For what it’s worth I tried to put forward details on the 1258 volcano to Pamela in a previous thread.
I have some time for Richard Stothers but in this case he has failed to analyse what happened before the volcano eruption. Contemporary observations and crop records obtained from the met office archives and church records illustrate that the climate had already turned down some 5 years before the eruption. Undoubtedly 1258 was a terrible weather year but it returned to’normal ‘ immediately after.
Similarly eruptions later in that century cited by giff miller as the likely cause of the lia once again seem to have missed out on the reality of a downturn shortly before the eruptions and a return to normality immediately after.
Climate oscillations eventually calmed down with The period around the mid 14 th century seemingly being once again rather settled and very warm. The true down turn to the lia occurred in the mid 16th century.
The actual evidence for a long lasting effect by volcanos on climate is difficult to find when looking at the contemporary records.
Tonyb

Matthew R Marler
June 25, 2014 2:43 pm

Salvaatore del Prete: http://www.giss.nasa.gov/research/features/200611_paleoclimatology/
This is one of many studies which refutes the nonsense being put forth on this site.

Exactly what idea was refuted by that press release?

Tonyb
June 25, 2014 2:44 pm

Pamela
Your post was not up there when I composed mine. Looking at contemporary records it is difficult to see the knee occurring before 1400 . Undoubtedly there was a partial down turn early in the 13 th century with substantial climate oscillations which occurred at various times over the next century but with a return to mwp conditions later on
Phil jones has written a number of interesting papers and a particularly interesting book about the climate from 1500 . He has also of course been involved in other more dubious writings.
Tonyb

June 25, 2014 2:44 pm

These four factors either combined or in some combination are responsible for all the climate changes on earth. If one agrees with this then one will also have to agree that global climate
change is synchronous.
MY FOUR FACTORS
1. The initial state of the global climate.
a. how close or far away is the global climate to glacial conditions if in inter- glacial, or how close is the earth to inter- glacial conditions if in a glacial condition.
b. climate was closer to the threshold level between glacial and inter- glacial 20,000 -10,000 years ago. This is why I think the climate was more unstable then. Example solar variability and all items would be able to pull the climate EASIER from one regime to another when the state of the climate was closer to the inter glacial/glacial dividing line, or threshold.
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2. Solar variability and the associated primary and secondary effects. Lag times, degree of magnitude change and duration of those changes must be taken into account. I have come up with criteria . I will pass it along, why not in my next email.
a. solar irradiance changes- linked to ocean heat content.
b. cosmic ray changes- linked to clouds.
c. volcanic activity- correlated to stratospheric warming changing which will impact the atmospheric circulation.
d. UV light changes -correlated to ozone which then can be linked to atmospheric circulation changes.
e. atmospheric changes – linked to ocean current changes including ENSO, and thermohaline circulation.
f. atmospheric changes -linked also to albedo changes due to snow cover, cloud cover , and precipitation changes.
g. thickness of thermosphere – which is linked to other levels of the atmosphere.
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3. Strength of the magnetic field of the earth. This can enhance or moderate changes associated with solar variability.
a. weaker magnetic field can enhance cosmic rays and also cause them to be concentrated in lower latitudes where there is more moisture to work with to be more effective in cloud formation if magnetic poles wander south due to magnetic excursions in a weakening magnetic field overall.
4. Milankovitch Cycles. Where the earth is at in relation to these cycles as far as how elliptic or not the orbit is, the tilt of the axis and precession.
a. less elliptic, less tilt, earth furthest from sun during N.H. summer — favor cooling.
I feel what I have outlined for the most part is not being taken as a serious possible solution as to why the climate changes. Rather climate change is often trying to be tied with terrestrial changes and worse yet only ONE ITEM , such as CO2 or ENSO which is absurdity.
Over time not one of these one item explanations stand up, they can not explain all of the various climatic changes to all the different degrees of magnitude and duration of time each one different from the previous one. Each one UNIQUE.
Examples would be the sudden start/end of the Oldest, Older and Younger Dryas dramatic climate shifts, the 8200 year ago cold period, and even the sudden start of the Little Ice Age following the Medieval Warm Period.

Pamela Gray
June 25, 2014 2:45 pm

By the way, anyone can download reconstruction data and develop their own graph.
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/data-access/paleoclimatology-data/datasets/climate-reconstruction

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