CRISES IN CLIMATOLOGY

Guest essay by Donald C. Morton

Herzberg Program in Astronomy and Astrophysics, National Research Council of Canada

ABSTRACT

The Report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change released in September 2013 continues the pattern of previous ones raising alarm about a warming earth due to anthropogenic greenhouse gases. This paper identifies six problems with this conclusion – the mismatch of the model predictions with the temperature observations, the assumption of positive feedback, possible solar effects, the use of a global temperature, chaos in climate, and the rejection of any skepticism.

THIS IS AN ASTROPHYSICIST’S VIEW OF CURRENT CLIMATOLOGY. I WELCOME CRITICAL COMMENTS.

1. INTRODUCTION

Many climatologists have been telling us that the environment of the earth is in serious danger of overheating caused by the human generation of greenhouse gases since the Industrial Revolution. Carbon dioxide (CO2) is mainly to blame, but methane (CH4), nitrous oxide (N2O) and certain chlorofluorocarbons also contribute.

“As expected, the main message is still the same: the evidence is very clear that the world is warming, and that human activities are the main cause. Natural changes and fluctuations do occur but they are relatively small.” – John Shepard in the United Kingdom, 2013 Sep 27 for the Royal Society.

“We can no longer ignore the facts: Global warming is unequivocal, it is caused by us and its consequences will be profound. But that doesn’t mean we can’t solve it.” -Andrew Weaver in Canada, 2013 Sep 28 in the Globe and Mail.

“We know without a doubt that gases we are adding to the air have caused a planetary energy imbalance and global warming, already 0.8 degrees Celsius since pre-industrial times. This warming is driving an increase in extreme weather from heat waves to droughts and wild fires and stronger storms . . .” – James Hansen in United States, 2013 Dec 6 CNN broadcast.

Are these views valid? In the past eminent scientists have been wrong. Lord Kelvin, unaware of nuclear fusion, concluded that the sun’s gravitational energy could keep it shining at its present brightness for only 107 years. Sir Arthur Eddington correctly suggested a nuclear source for the sun, but rejected Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar’s theory of degenerate matter to explain white dwarfs. In 1983 Chandrasekhar received the Nobel Prize in Physics for his insight.

My own expertise is in physics and astrophysics with experience in radiative transfer, not climatology, but looking at the discipline from outside I see some serious problems. I presume most climate scientists are aware of these inconsistencies, but they remain in the Reports of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), including the 5th one released on 2013 Sep 27. Politicians and government officials guiding public policy consult these reports and treat them as reliable.

2. THEORY, MODELS AND OBSERVATIONS

A necessary test of any theory or model is how well it predicts new experiments or observations not used in its development. It is not sufficient just to represent the data used to produce the theory or model, particularly in the case of climate models where many physical processes too complicated to code explicitly are represented by adjustable parameters. As John von Neumann once stated “With four parameters I can fit an elephant, and with five I can make him wiggle his trunk.” Four parameters will not produce all the details of an elephant, but the principle is clear. The models must have independent checks.

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Fig. 1. Global Average Temperature Anomaly (°C) upper, and CO2 concentration (ppm) lower graphs from http://www.climate.gov/maps-data by the U.S. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. The extension of the CO2 data to earlier years is from the ice core data of the Antarctic Law Dome ftp://ftp.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/paleo/icecore/antarctica/law/law_co2.txt.

The upper plot in Fig. 1 shows how global temperatures have varied since 1880 with a decrease to 1910, a rise until 1945, a plateau to 1977, a rise of about 0.6 ºC until 1998 and then essentially constant for the next 16 years. Meanwhile, the concentration of CO2 in our atmosphere has steadily increased. Fig. 2 from the 5th Report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (2013) shows that the observed temperatures follow the lower envelope of the predictions of the climate models.

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Fig. 2. Model Predictions and Temperature Observations from IPCC Report 2013. RCP 4.5 (Representative Concentration Pathway 4.5) labels a set of models for a modest rise in anthropogenic greenhouse gases corresponding to an increase of 4.5 Wm2 (1.3%) in total solar irradiance.

Already in 2009 climatologists worried about the change in slope of the temperature curve. At that time Knight et al. (2009) asked the rhetorical question “Do global temperature trends over the last decade falsify climate predictions?” Their response was “Near-zero and even negative trends are common for intervals of a decade or less in the simulations, due to the model’s internal climate variability. The simulations rule out (at the 95% level) zero trends for intervals of 15 yr or more, suggesting that an observed absence of warming of this duration is needed to create a discrepancy with the expected present-day warming rate.”

Now some climate scientists are saying that 16 years is too short a time to assess a change in climate, but then the rise from 1978 to 1998, which was attributed to anthropogenic CO2, also could be spurious. Other researchers are actively looking into phenomena omitted from the models to explain the discrepancy. These include

1) a strong natural South Pacific El Nino warming event in 1998 so the plateau did not begin until 2001,

2) an overestimate of the greenhouse effect in some models,

3) inadequate inclusion of clouds and other aerosols in the models, and

4) a deep ocean reservoir for the missing heat.

Extra warming due to the 1978 El Nino seems plausible, but there have been others that could have caused some of the earlier warming and there are also cooling La Nina events. All proposed causes of the plateau must have their effects on the warming also incorporated into the models to make predictions that then can be tested during the following decade or two of temperature evolution.

3. THE FEEDBACK PARAMETER

There is no controversy about the basic physics that adding CO2 to our atmosphere absorbs solar energy resulting in a little extra warming on top of the dominant effect of water vapor. The CO2 spectral absorption is saturated so is proportional to the logarithm of the concentration. The estimated effect accounts for only about half the temperature rise of 0.8 ºC since the Industrial Revolution. Without justification the model makers ignored possible natural causes and assumed the rise was caused primarily by anthropogenic CO2 with reflections by clouds and other aerosols approximately cancelling absorption by the other gases noted above. Consequently they postulated a positive feedback due to hotter air holding more water vapor, which increased the absorption of radiation and the backwarming. The computer simulations represented this process and many other effects by adjustable parameters chosen to match the observations. As stated on p. 9-9 of IPCC2013, “The complexity of each process representation is constrained by observations, computational resources, and current knowledge.” Models that did not show a temperature rise would have been omitted from any ensemble so the observed rise effectively determined the feedback parameter.

Now that the temperature has stopped increasing we see that this parameter is not valid. It even could be negative. CO2 absorption without the presumed feedback will still happen but its effect will not be alarming. The modest warming possibly could be a net benefit with increased crop production and fewer deaths due to cold weather.

4. THE SUN

The total solar irradiance, the flux integrated over all wavelengths, is a basic input to all climate models. Fortunately our sun is a stable star with minimal change in this output. Since the beginning of satellite measures of the whole spectrum in 1978 the variation has been about 0.1% over the 11-year activity cycle with occasional excursions up to 0.3%. The associated change in tropospheric temperature is about 0.1 ºC.

Larger variations could explain historical warm and cold intervals such as the Medieval Warm Period (approx. 950 – 1250) and the Little Ice Age (approx. 1430 – 1850) but remain as speculations. The sun is a ball of gas in hydrostatic equilibrium. Any reduction in the nuclear energy source initially would be compensated by a gravitational contraction on a time scale of a few minutes. Complicating this basic picture are the variable magnetic field and the mass motions that generate it. Li et al. (2003) included these effects in a simple model and found luminosity variations of 0.1%, consistent with the measurements.

However, the sun can influence the earth in many other ways that the IPCC Report does not consider, in part because the mechanisms are not well understood. The ultraviolet irradiance changes much more with solar activity, ~ 10% at 200 nm in the band that forms ozone in the stratosphere and between 5% and 2% in the ozone absorption bands between 240 and 320 nm according to DeLand & Cebula (2012). Their graphs also show that these fluxes during the most recent solar minimum were lower than the previous two reducing the formation of ozone in the stratosphere and its absorption of the near UV spectrum. How this absorption can couple into the lower atmosphere is under current investigation, e. g. Haigh et al. (2010).

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Fig. 3 – Monthly averages of the 10.7 cm solar radio flux measured by the National Research Council of Canada and adjusted to the mean earth-sun distance. A solar flux unit = 104 Jansky = 10-22 Wm-2 Hz-1. The maximum just past is unusually weak and the preceding minimum exceptionally broad. Graph courtesy of Dr. Ken Tapping of NRC.

Decreasing solar activity also lowers the strength of the heliosphere magnetic shield permitting more galactic cosmic rays to reach the earth. Experiments by Kirkby et al. (2011) and Svensmark et al. (2013) have shown that these cosmic rays can seed the formation of clouds, which then reflect more sunlight and reduce the temperature, though the magnitude of the effect remains uncertain. Morton (2014) has described how the abundances cosmogenic isotopes 10Be and 14C in ice cores and tree rings indicate past solar activity and its anticorrelation with temperature.

Of particular interest is the recent reduction in solar activity. Fig. 3 shows the 10.7 cm solar radio flux measured by the National Research Council of Canada since 1947 (Tapping 2013) and Fig. 4 the corresponding sunspot count. Careful calibration of the radio flux permits reliable comparisons

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Fig. 4. Monthly sunspot numbers for the past 60 years by the Royal Observatory of Belgium at http://sidc.oma.be/sunspot-index-graphics/sidc_graphics.php.

over six solar cycles even when there are no sunspots. The last minimum was unusually broad and the present maximum exceptionally weak. The sun has entered a phase of low activity. Fig. 5 shows that previous times of very low activity were the Dalton Minimum from about 1800 to 1820 and the Maunder Minimum from about 1645 to 1715 when very few spots were seen. Since

these minima occurred during the Little Ice Age when glaciers were advancing in both Northern and Southern Hemispheres, it is possible that we are entering another cooling period. Without a

physical understanding of the cause of such cool periods, we cannot be more specific. Temperatures as cold as the Little Ice Age may not happen, but there must be some cooling to compensate the heating that is present from the increasing CO2 absorption.

Regrettably the IPCC reports scarcely mention these solar effects and the uncertainties they add to any prediction.

5. THE AVERAGE GLOBAL TEMPERATURE

Long-term temperature measurements at a given location provide an obvious test of climate change. Such data exist for many places for more than a hundred years and for a few places for much longer. With these data climatologists calculate the temperature anomaly – the deviation from a many-year average such as 1961 to 1990, each day of the year at the times a measurement

is recorded. Then they average over days, nights, seasons, continents and oceans to obtain the mean global temperature anomaly for each month or year as in Fig. 1. Unfortunately many parts of the world are poorly sampled and the oceans, which cover 71% of the earth’s surface, even less so. Thus many measurements must be extrapolated to include larger areas with different

climates. Corrections are needed when a site’s measurements are interrupted or terminated or a new station is established as well as for urban heat if the meteorological station is in a city and altitude if the station is significantly higher than sea level.

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Fig. 5. This plot from the U. S. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Agency shows sunspot numbers since their first observation with telescopes in 1610. Systematic counting began soon after the discovery of the 11-year cycle in 1843. Later searching of old records provided the earlier numbers.

The IPCC Reports refer to four sources of data for the temperature anomaly from the Hadley Centre for Climate Prediction and Research and the European Centre for Medium-range Weather Forcasting in the United Kingdom and the Goddard Institute for Space Science and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration in the United States. For a given month they can differ by several tenths of a degree, but all show the same long-term trends of Fig. 1, a rise from 1978 to 1998 and a plateau from 1998 to the present.

These patterns continue to be a challenge for researchers to understand. Some climatologists like to put a straight line through all the data from 1978 to the present and conclude that the world is continuing to warm, just a little more slowly, but surely if these curves have any connection to reality, changes in slope mean something. Are they evidence of the chaotic nature of climate with abrupt shifts from one state to another?

Essex, McKitrick and Andresen (2007) and Essex and McKitrick (2007) in their popular book have criticized the use of these mean temperature data for the earth. First temperature is an intensive thermodynamic variable relevant to a particular location in equilibrium with the measuring device. Any average with other locations or times of day or seasons has no physical meaning. Other types of averages might be more appropriate such as the second, fourth or inverse power of the absolute temperature, each of which would give a different trend with time. Furthermore it is temperature differences between two places that drive the dynamics. Climatologists have not explained what this single number for global temperature actually means. Essex and McKitrick note that it “is not a temperature. Nor is it even a proper statistic or index. It is a sequence of different statistics grafted together with ad hoc models.”

This questionable use of a global temperature along with the problems of modeling a chaotic system discussed below raise basic concerns about the validity of the test with observations in Section 2. Since climatologists and the IPCC insist on using this temperature number and the models in their predictions of global warming, it still is appropriate to hold them to comparisons with the observations they consider relevant.

6. CHAOS

Essex and McKitrick (2007) have provided a helpful introduction to this problem. Thanks to the pioneering investigations into the equations for convection and the associated turbulence by meteorologist Edward Lorenz, scientists have come to realize that many dynamical systems are fundamentally chaotic. The situation often is described as the butterfly effect because a small change in initial conditions such as the flap of a butterfly wing can have large effects in later results.

Convection and turbulence in the air are central phenomenon in determining weather and so must have their effect on climate too. The IPCC on p. 1-25 of the 2013 Report recognizes this with the statement “There are fundamental limits to just how precisely annual temperatures can be projected, because of the chaotic nature of the climate system.” but then makes predictions with confidence. Meteorologists modeling weather find that their predictions become unstable after a week or two, and they have the advantage of refining their models by comparing predictions with observations.

Why do the climate models in the IPCC reports not show these instabilities? Have they been selectively tuned to avoid them or are the chaotic physical processes not properly included? Why should we think that long-term climate predictions are possible when they are not for weather?

7. THE APPEAL TO CONSENSUS AND THE SILENCING OF SKEPTICISM

Frequently we hear that we must accept that the earth is warming at an alarming rate due to anthropogenic CO2 because 90+% climatologists believe it. However, science is not a consensus discipline. It depends on skeptics questioning every hypothesis, every theory and every model until all rational challenges are satisfied. Any endeavor that must prove itself by appealing to consensus or demeaning skeptics is not science. Why do some proponents of climate alarm dismiss critics by implying they are like Holocaust deniers? Presumably most climatologists disapprove of these unscientific tactics, but too few speak out against them.

8. SUMMARY AND CONCLUSIONS

At least six serious problems confront the climate predictions presented in the last IPCC Report. The models do not predict the observed temperature plateau since 1998, the models adopted a feedback parameter based on the unjustified assumption that the warming prior to 1998 was primarily caused by anthopogenic CO2, the IPCC ignored possible affects of reduced solar activity during the past decade, the temperature anomaly has no physical significance, the models attempt to predict the future of a chaotic system, and there is an appeal to consensus to establish climate science.

Temperatures could start to rise again as we continue to add CO2 to the atmosphere or they could fall as suggested by the present weak solar activity. Many climatologists are trying to address the issues described here to give us a better understanding of the physical processes involved and the reliability of the predictions. One outstanding issue is the location of all the anthropogenic CO2. According to Table 6.1 in the 2013 Report, half goes into the atmosphere and a quarter into the oceans with the remaining quarter assigned to some undefined sequestering as biomass on the land.

Meanwhile what policies should a responsible citizen be advocating? We risk serious consequences from either a major change in climate or an economic recession from efforts to reduce the CO2 output. My personal view is to use this temperature plateau as a time to reassess all the relevant issues. Are there other environmental effects that are equally or more important than global warming? Are some policies like subsidizing biofuels counterproductive? Are large farms of windmills, solar cells or collecting mirrors effective investments when we are unable to store energy? How reliable is the claim that extreme weather events are more frequent because of the global warming? Is it time to admit that we do not understand climate well enough to know how to direct it?

References

 

DeLand, M. T., & Cebula, R. P. (2012) Solar UV variations during the decline of Cycle 23. J. Atmosph. Solar-Terrestr. Phys., 77, 225.

Essex, C., & McKitrick, R. (2007) Taken by storm: the troubled science, policy and politics of global warming, Key Porter Books. Rev. ed. Toronto, ON, Canada.

Essex, C., McKitrick, R., & Andresen, B. (2007) Does a Global temperature Exist? J. Non-Equilib. Thermodyn. 32, 1.

Haigh. J. D., et al. (2010). An influence of solar spectral variations on radiative forcing of climate. Nature 467, 696.

IPCC (2013), Climate Change 2013: The Physicsal Science Basis. Contribution of Working Group I to the Fifth Assessment Report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, http://www.ipcc.ch

Li, L. H., Basu, S., Sofia, S., Robinson, F.J., Demarque, P., & Guenther, D.B. (2003). Global

parameter and helioseismic tests of solar variability models. Astrophys. J., 591, 1284.

Kirkby, J. et al. (2011). Role of sulphuric acid, ammonia and galactic cosmic rays in atmospheric

aerosol nucleation. Nature, 476, 429.

Knight, J., et al. (2009). Bull. Amer. Meteor. Soc., 90 (8), Special Suppl. pp. S22, S23.

Morton, D. C. (2014). An Astronomer’s view of Climate Change. J. Roy. Astron. Soc. Canada, 108, 27. http://arXiv.org/abs/1401.8235.

Svensmark, H., Enghoff, M.B., & Pedersen, J.O.P. (2013). Response of cloud condensation nuclei (> 50 nm) to changes in ion-nucleation. Phys. Lett. A, 377, 2343.

Tapping, K.F. (2013). The 10.7 cm radio flux (F10.7). Space Weather, 11, 394.

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richardscourtney
February 18, 2014 5:48 am

drumphil:
At February 18, 2014 at 5:38 am you say

I also don’t think that increased CO2 doesn’t have any other negative effects, and I don’t think that the supposed positive effects of CO2 necessarily lead to feasting and fortune either.

Really?
Then why have you failed to state any discernible “negative effects”?
And why did you ignore the post on the other thread from Lars P. ? It said

The stupidity of your post is clearly explained if you start to understand that food for about 1 billion out of 7 billion of people is due to the enhanced plant growth due to CO_2.

Richard

RichardLH
February 18, 2014 5:54 am

drumphil says:
February 18, 2014 at 5:38 am
“I don’t think that it is. I also don’t think that increased CO2 doesn’t have any other negative effects, and I don’t think that the supposed positive effects of CO2 necessarily lead to feasting and fortune either.”
So what are your positive and negative lists for CO2 growth, as currently determined, since start year of your choice?

drumphil
February 18, 2014 5:58 am

“Then why have you failed to state any discernible “negative effects”
Because your question wasn’t asking me to do so. It was asking whether or not I thought enhanced plant growth was a good thing. You still haven’t acknowledged this. That is what I have been getting at this whole time. I’m not sure how I could express it any more clearly.
So, yet again, I’m just going to have to submit to your superior intelligence, niceness, and just generally how much better than me you are, and retire from this crap once again. I need sleep.

richardscourtney
February 18, 2014 6:02 am

drumphil:
re your post at February 18, 2014 at 5:58 am.
You need more than “sleep”. It is very clear that you need to remember to take your meds.
Richard

drumphil
February 18, 2014 6:04 am

Good night Richard.. Stay classy.

Konrad
February 18, 2014 9:32 am

Mi Cro says:
February 18, 2014 at 5:37 am
—————————————
Look again at the lower arrows in each panel. IR direct to space is shown. So too is the changed temperature gradient of the surface.
There is however an error in the diagrams. Panel 2 should be labelled “atmosphere without radiative ability1 day after radiative ability removed”.
After vertical tropospheric circulation has stalled due to the loss of radiative gases, “non-radiative” gases stalled at altitude begin to super heat due to interception of small amount of IR, SW but particularly UV. Yes, it’s worse than you thought.

Reply to  Konrad
February 18, 2014 10:05 am

After vertical tropospheric circulation has stalled due to the loss of radiative gases, “non-radiative” gases stalled at altitude begin to super heat due to interception of small amount of IR, SW but particularly UV.

Why wouldn’t the “non-radiative” gases at worst, radiate as a black body to space?

February 18, 2014 11:16 am

dp says:
February 17, 2014 at 10:26 am
Without CO2 and other (so-called) GHG there would be no climate. Those who say CO2 has no effect are bat-shit crazy and are easily discounted.
—————-
Atmospheric CO2 does have an effect on near-surface air temperatures ….. but the effect of 398 ppm of CO2 in the earth’s atmosphere is so miniscule that it is nigh onto impossible to measure.
Heat energy in the atmosphere is NOT additive or cumulative from day to day or year to year, therefore it is immaterial what the CO2 ppm was 20 years ago or 100 years ago.
If 25,000 ppm of H2O vapor in the near-surface atmosphere won’t “burn your socks off” …… then 600 or 1,000 ppm of CO2 won’t burn your socks off either.
And a simple experiment will prove and/or verify all the above.

February 18, 2014 11:30 am

Mi Cro says:
February 18, 2014 at 10:05 am
After vertical tropospheric circulation has stalled due to the loss of radiative gases, “non-radiative” gases stalled at altitude begin to super heat due to interception of small amount of IR, SW but particularly UV.
Why wouldn’t the “non-radiative” gases at worst, radiate as a black body to space?

Because without a dipole their emissivity is ~0.

Reply to  Phil.
February 18, 2014 11:46 am

Because without a dipole their emissivity is ~0.

All elements and molecules radiate in ir based on their temperature.

milodonharlani
February 18, 2014 11:43 am

Samuel C Cogar says:
February 18, 2014 at 11:16 am
It would be hard to promote academic careers, soak tax & rate payers & hobble the global economy with phony scare stories if the average atmospheric concentration of the GHG water vapor had allegedly increased from 30,285 to 30,398 ppm since 1850, instead of the GHG CO2 from 285 to 398 ppm.

February 18, 2014 12:59 pm

Because without a dipole their emissivity is ~0.

Here, Richard can explain. Read the first paragraph of 41–2Thermal equilibrium of radiation

Konrad
February 18, 2014 1:03 pm

Phil. says:
February 18, 2014 at 11:30 am
“Because without a dipole their emissivity is ~0”
That little “~” symbol is what allows the thermosphere to superheat, with molecular temperatures in the hundreds of degrees.
Mi Cro says:
February 18, 2014 at 10:05 am
“Why wouldn’t the “non-radiative” gases at worst, radiate as a black body to space?”
The problem is that poor absorbers are poor emitters. Park an old fashioned black car with chrome trim in the sun. The black paint heats faster than the chrome, but after a few hours the black paint is hot, but the chrome trim is too hot to touch.
Without radiative gases, topospheric convective circulation would stall, the lapse rate would disappear and the bulk of the atmosphere would quickly trend isothermal through gas conduction to a temperature close to surface Tmax. This alone would be sufficient for much of our atmosphere to be lost to space. Following this radiative super heating of stagnated N2 and O2 becomes a secondary issue.

Box of Rocks
February 18, 2014 1:25 pm

Konrad says:
February 18, 2014 at 3:26 am
Box of Rocks says:
February 18, 2014 at 2:49 am
——————————————
What are we, thick as a box of rocks?
http://i45.tinypic.com/29koww6.jpg
No one who challenges me wins. Those are the rules. Questions?
****
Yeah, is your picture a T-s diagram by chance?

February 18, 2014 1:37 pm

Mi Cro says:
February 18, 2014 at 11:46 am
“Because without a dipole their emissivity is ~0.”
All elements and molecules radiate in ir based on their temperature.

Not in the gas phase they don’t!
You misunderstand Feynman too.

Reply to  Phil.
February 18, 2014 1:45 pm

You misunderstand Feynman too.

I don’t think so, but I will listen to your explanation why you think I did.
The gas contents of a nitrogen bottle will normalize to room temp, the electrons will vibrate based on their temp, and they will radiate black body IR based on that temp.

george e. smith
February 18, 2014 1:40 pm

“””””…..Mi Cro says:
February 18, 2014 at 11:46 am
Because without a dipole their emissivity is ~0.
All elements and molecules radiate in ir based on their temperature……”””””
Well if they have a Temperature, that means they are in collisions with many other molecules with a Maxwell-Boltzmann distribution. During such collisions (which last an eternity, at thermal energies) even quite symmetric atoms or molecules undergo distortion, because although the electric charge in the nucleus, and the electron “cloud” are equal (and opposite), their respective masses are greatly different, with a nuclear to electron mass ratio that is typically around 3675 , so virtually all of the kinetic energy is in the nucleus.
So during such collisions, the atom/molecule most certainly has a dipole moment that is different from zero, along with accelerating electric charges so it WILL radiate a thermal spectrum, like any other material not at zero kelvins, and hence not in collisions. Thermal spectrum emissions happen at the atom/molecule level; that’s where the accelerating electric charges are.
And there are other antenna designs besides dipoles, that can radiate EM radiation.
Now of course, because the atmospheric gases; N2, O2, Ar are much lower density than solids or liquids, they are nowhere near total absorbers, even in earth sized thicknesses, so they would not approach black body emissivity levels. But there’s a lot more of them, that GHG molecules.

February 18, 2014 1:42 pm

Mi Cro says:
“All elements and molecules radiate in ir based on their temperature.”
Phil. says:
“Not in the gas phase they don’t!”
So even though the molecules are above absolute zero, they cannot radiate at all?

February 18, 2014 1:44 pm

Sorry, George, I was typing while you were posting & didn’t see your explanation. Thanks for that. My world view isn’t wrong after all.

February 18, 2014 1:49 pm

George,

so they would not approach black body emissivity levels.

Would not an planets atmospheric sized collection of atm gases approximate a black body at whatever temp it is at?

February 18, 2014 1:51 pm

Mi Cro says:
February 18, 2014 at 1:45 pm

the electrons will vibrate based on their temp

This came out clunky, I don’t mean the temp of the electron, but the temp of the atom the electron is in the shell of.

February 18, 2014 1:57 pm

drumphil says:
“Increased CO2 levels… cause environmentally damaging warming, so are you for damaging warming?”
…I believe that to be a fact….

Are you serious? If so, please post verifiable global damage or global harm due to the ≈40% rise in CO2.
=========================
Konrad says:
“Without radiative gases… [ … ] This alone would be sufficient for much of our atmosphere to be lost to space.”
Are you serious? Doesn’t gravity have some effect on the atmosphere?
[Sorry if I missed anything, I didn’t read this whole thread.]

richardscourtney
February 18, 2014 2:18 pm

Mi Cro:
Allow me to try to help.
Materials (including gases) do absorb (and emit) radiation by raising (or lowering) electrons in their atoms to other energy levels. However, this effect is very small compared to the radiative absorbtion and emission of greenhouse gas (GHG) molecules.
A GHG molecule changes its energy state by gaining rotational or vibrational energy when it absorbs a photon. Consider a CO2 molecule
C – O – C
It can vibrate by changing the ‘angle’ between its carbon atoms.
Now consider an N2 molecule
N – N
It has no ‘angle’ to vibrate and is not a GHG.
In the atmosphere the molecular effect is so much larger than the atomic effect that the atomic effect is usually ignored because it is too small to be of significance.
I hope that helps.
Richard

Reply to  richardscourtney
February 19, 2014 7:00 am

Richard, My comments were in response to Konrad comment:

Without radiative gases our atmosphere has no effective way to cool. If our atmosphere has no way to cool, the oceans have no way to cool. They could reach 80C if not beyond.

I think this is flat wrong, his reason was because without a dipole there’s no way for the “non-radiative” gases to cool, again, all atoms above 0K radiate IR. I’m okay with your comment it’s not an important factor in cooling the planet (we have radiative gases).
I’m okay with George Smith’s comment about there being no ideal black body, and they are all pseudo BB’s (or gray, or white). I also like Georges comment about how collisions of atoms alter their shape creating a dipole so they can radiate.
I’m also okay that at high altitude non-radiative atoms can be quite warm, but there are so few of them it’s still very cold at those same altitudes.
But, I don’t think either Phil or Konrad have shown how the planet wouldn’t cool at all without GHG’s in the atm.
And I don’t need either of them to try and explain it too me, I don’t really care, but I did want to acknowledge comments from Richard and George.

richardscourtney
February 18, 2014 2:24 pm

OOPS
Obviously, my representation of a CO2 molecule was daft. Intended to write
O – C – O
It can vibrate by changing the ‘angle’ between its oxygen atoms.
Sorry.
Richard

February 18, 2014 3:08 pm

dbstealey says:
February 18, 2014 at 1:42 pm
Mi Cro says:
“All elements and molecules radiate in ir based on their temperature.”
Phil. says:
“Not in the gas phase they don’t!”
So even though the molecules are above absolute zero, they cannot radiate at all?

That’s correct, to emit in the IR they need a dipole and N2 and O2 don’t have one.
IR is due to molecular motions, rotational and vibrational not electronic.
Mi Cro says:
February 18, 2014 at 1:45 pm
“You misunderstand Feynman too.”
I don’t think so, but I will listen to your explanation why you think I did.
The gas contents of a nitrogen bottle will normalize to room temp, the electrons will vibrate based on their temp, and they will radiate black body IR based on that temp.

As stated above IR is due to molecular motion not electronic so your scenario does’t happen.
Mi Cro says:
February 18, 2014 at 1:49 pm
George,
“so they would not approach black body emissivity levels.”
Would not an planets atmospheric sized collection of atm gases approximate a black body at whatever temp it is at?

No!
richardscourtney says:
February 18, 2014 at 2:24 pm
O – C – O
It can vibrate by changing the ‘angle’ between its oxygen atoms.

And also by asymmetric stretching
O – C – O
-> ->

Jimbo
February 18, 2014 3:16 pm

My own expertise is in physics and astrophysics with experience in radiative transfer, not climatology, but looking at the discipline from outside I see some serious problems.

Don’t you worry your sweet little head. Here is Dr. James Hansen looking at climatology from the inside and outside. It’s the father of modern day global warming aka CAGW.

NASA GISS
Hansen was trained in physics and astronomy in James Van Allen’s space science program at the University of Iowa, receiving his bachelor’s degree with highest distinction in physics and mathematics, master’s degree in astronomy, and Ph.D. in physics in 1967. Except for 1969, when he was a National Science Foundation post-doctoral student at the Leiden Observatory in Holland, Hansen spent his professional career at GISS. Hansen was a visiting student at the Institute of Astrophysics, University of Kyoto and Department of Astronomy, Tokyo University, Japan from 1965-1966. http://www.giss.nasa.gov/research/news/20130402/

You see, anyone can be a climatologist or weatherman. Today we see Calamatologists talking endlessly about the causes of weather while forgetting that they told us that the weather is not the same as climate. They fooled me for sure, DOH.

richardscourtney
February 18, 2014 3:16 pm

Phil.:
Thanks for your mention of stretching excitation in your post at February 18, 2014 at 3:08 pm.
My point was that people were discussing atomic excitation which can be ignored because the GHE is an effect of molecular excitation. As you say, there are many details which I omitted. However, the important issue I was trying to point out was that people were discussing the wrong (and an irrelevant) effect.
Richard

Jimbo
February 18, 2014 3:18 pm

Ooooops! I really meant
He’s the father of modern day global warming aka CAGW.”

Stuart B
Reply to  Jimbo
February 19, 2014 2:34 am

Calamatology I like. Should be submitted to the OED for a coinage of the year, along with ‘dramagreen’ and ‘skeptiphobia’ (ok, the last is mine).