![413Ai6gFA0L._SY344_BO1,204,203,200_[1]](http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/413ai6gfa0l-_sy344_bo1204203200_1.jpg?resize=223%2C346&quality=83)
Global Warming was just one issue The Club of Rome (TCOR) targeted in its campaign to reduce world population. In 1993 the Club’s co-founder, Alexander King with Bertrand Schneider wrote The First Global Revolution stating,
“The common enemy of humanity is man. In searching for a new enemy to unite us, we came up with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming, water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill. All these dangers are caused by human intervention, and it is only through changed attitudes and behavior that they can be overcome. The real enemy then, is humanity itself.”
They believe all these problems are created by humans but exacerbated by a growing population using technology. “Changed attitudes and behavior” basically means what it has meant from the time Thomas Malthus raised the idea the world was overpopulated. He believed charity and laws to help the poor were a major cause of the problem and it was necessary to reduce population through rules and regulations. TCOR ideas all ended up in the political activities of the Rio 1992 conference organized by Maurice Strong (a TCOR member) under the United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP).
The assumptions and objectives became the main structure of Agenda 21, the master plan for the 21st Century. The global warming threat was confronted at Rio through the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC) and creation of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC). It was structured to predetermine scientific proof that human CO2 was one contribution of the “common enemy”.
The IPCC was very successful. Despite all the revelations about corrupted science and their failed predictions (projections) CO2 remains central to global attention about energy and environment. For example, several websites, many provided by government, list CO2 output levels for new and used cars. Automobile companies work to build cars with lower CO2 output and, if for no other reason than to appear green, use it in advertising. The automotive industry, which has the scientists to know better, collectively surrenders to eco-bullying about CO2. They are not alone. They get away with it because they pass on the unnecessary costs to a befuddled “trying to do the right thing” population.
TCOR applied Thomas Malthus’s claim of a race to exhaustion of food to all resources. Both Malthus and COR believe limiting population was mandatory. Darwin took a copy of Malthus’s Essay on Population with him and remarked on its influence on his evolutionary theory in his Beagle journal in September 1838. The seeds of distortion about overpopulation were sown in Darwin’s acceptance of Malthus’s claims.
Paul Johnson’s biography of Charles Darwin comments on the contradiction between Darwin’s scientific methods and his acceptance of their omission in Malthus.
Malthus’s aim was to discourage charity and reform the existing poor laws, which, he argued, encourage the destitute to breed and so aggravated the problem. That was not Darwin’s concern. What struck him was the contrast between geometrical progression (breeding) and arithmetical progression (food supplies). Not being a mathematician he did not check the reasoning and accuracy behind Malthus’s law… in fact, Malthus’s law was nonsense. He did not prove it. He stated it. What strikes one reading Malthus is the lack of hard evidence throughout. Why did this not strike Darwin? A mystery. Malthus’s only “proof” was the population expansion of the United States.
There was no point at which Malthus’s geometrical/arithmetical rule could be made to square with the known facts. And he had no reason whatsoever to extrapolate from the high American rates to give a doubling effect every 25 years everywhere and in perpetuity.
He swallowed Malthusianism because it fitted his emotional need, he did not apply the tests and deploy the skepticism that a scientist should. It was a rare lapse from the discipline of his profession. But it was an important one.
Darwin’s promotion of Malthus undoubtedly gave the ideas credibility they didn’t deserve. Since then the Malthusian claim has dominated science, social science and latterly environmentalism. Even now many who accept the falsity of global warming due to humans continue to believe overpopulation is a real problem.
Overpopulation was central in all TCOR’s activities. Three books were important to their message, Paul Ehrlich’s The Population Bomb (1968) and Ecoscience: Population, Resources and Environment (1977) co-authored with John Holdren, Obama’s Science Czar, and Meadows et al., Limits to Growth, published in 1972 that anticipated the IPCC approach of computer model predictions (projections). The latter wrote
If the present growth trends in world population, industrialization, pollution, food production, and resource depletion continue unchanged, the limits to growth on this planet will be reached sometime within the next one hundred years.
Here is what the TCOR web site says about the book.
They created a computing model which took into account the relations between various global developments and produced computer simulations for alternative scenarios. Part of the modelling were different amounts of possibly available resources, different levels of agricultural productivity, birth control or environmental protection.
They estimated the current amount of a resource, determined the rate of consumption, and added an expanding demand because of increasing industrialization and population growth to determine, with simple linear trend analysis, that the world was doomed.
Economist Julian Simon challenged TCOR and Ehrlich’s assumptions.
In response to Ehrlich’s published claim that “If I were a gambler, I would take even money that England will not exist in the year 2000” – a proposition Simon regarded as too silly to bother with – Simon countered with “a public offer to stake US$10,000 … on my belief that the cost of non-government-controlled raw materials (including grain and oil) will not rise in the long run.”
Simon proposed,
You could name your own terms: select any raw material you wanted – copper, tin, whatever – and select any date in the future, “any date more than a year away,” and Simon would bet that the commodity’s price on that date would be lower than what it was at the time of the wager.
John Holdren selected the materials and the time. Simon won the bet.
Global warming used the idea that CO2 would increase to harmful levels because of increasing industrialization and expanding populations. The political manipulation of climate science was linked to development and population control in various ways. Here are comments from a PBS interview with Senator Tim Wirth in response to the question, “What was it in the late 80s, do you think, that made the issue [of global warming] take off?” He replied,
I think a number of things happened in the late 1980s. First of all, there were the [NASA scientist Jim] Hansen hearings [in 1988]. … We had introduced a major piece of legislation. Amazingly enough, it was an 18-part climate change bill; it had population in it, conservation, and it had nuclear in it. It had everything that we could think of that was related to climate change. … And so we had this set of hearings, and Jim Hansen was the star witness.
Wikipedia says about Wirth,
In the State Department, he worked with Vice President Al Gore on global environmental and population issues, supporting the administration’s views on global warming. A supporter of the proposed Kyoto Protocol Wirth announced the U.S.’s commitment to legally binding limits on greenhouse gas emissions.
Gore chaired the 1988 “Hansen” Senate Hearing and was central to the promotion of population as basic to all other problems. He led the US delegation to the September 1994 International Conference on Population and Development in Cairo Egypt.
That conference emerged from Rio 1992 where they linked population to all other supposed problems.
Explicitly integrating population into economic and development strategies will both speed up the pace of sustainable development and poverty alleviation and contribute to the achievement of population objectives and an improved quality of life of the population.
This theme was central to Rio+20 held in June 2012 and designed to re-emphasize Rio 1992.
The Numbers
The world is not overpopulated. That fallacy is perpetuated in all environmental research, policy and planning including global warming and latterly climate change. So what are the facts about world population?
The US Census Bureau provides a running estimate of world population. It was 6,994,551,619 on February 15, 2012. On October 30, 2011 the UN claimed it passed 7 billion; the difference is 5,448,381. This is more than the population of 129 countries of the 242 listed by Wikipedia. It confirms most statistics are crude estimates, especially those of the UN who rely on individual member countries, yet no accurate census exists for any of them
Population density is a more meaningful measure. Most people are concentrated in coastal flood plains and deltas, which are about 5 percent of the land. Compare Canada, the second largest country in the world with approximately 35.3 million residents estimated in 2013 with California where an estimated 37.3 million people lived in 2010. Some illustrate the insignificance of the density issue by putting everyone in a known region. For example, Texas at 7,438,152,268,800 square feet divided by the 2012 world population 6,994,551,619 yields 1063.4 square feet per person. Fitting all the people in an area is different from them being able to live there. Most of the world is unoccupied by humans.
Population geographers separate ecumene, the inhabited area, from non-ecumene the uninhabited areas. The distribution of each changes over time because of technology, communications and food production capacity. Many of these changes deal with climate controls. Use of fire and clothing allowed survival in colder regions, while irrigation offset droughts and allowed settlement in arid regions. Modern environmentalists would likely oppose all of these touted evolutionary advances.
Ironically The Fallacious Problem is The Solution
It all sounds too familiar in the exploitation of science for a political and personal agenda. But there is an even bigger tragedy because the development the TCOR and IPCC condemn is actually the solution.
All of the population predictions Ehrlich and others made were wrong, but more important and damning was they ignored another pattern that was identified in 1929 and developed over the same period as the Mathusian claims. It is known as the Demographic Transition.
It shows and statistics confirm, population declines as nations industrialize and the economy grows. It is so dramatic in developed countries that the population pyramid results in insufficient young people to support the massively expensive social programs for the elderly. Some countries offset this with migration, but they are simply creating other problems. Countries that don’t allow or severely limit migration such as Japan face completely different problems. Some countries offer incentives for having more than two children, such as the announcement by Vladimir Putin in Russia. China took draconian, inhuman, steps by limiting families to one child. The irony, although there is nothing funny about it, is they are now the largest producer of CO2 and their economy booms. If they had simply studied the demographic transition and let things take a normal course the tragedies already incurred and yet to unfold could have been avoided.
The world is not overpopulated. Malthus began the idea suggesting the population would outgrow the food supply. Currently food production is believed sufficient to feed 25 billion people and growing. The issue is that in the developing world some 60 percent of production never makes it to the table. Developed nations cut this figure to 30 percent primarily through refrigeration. In their blind zeal those who brought you the IPCC fiasco cut their teeth on the technological solution to this problem – better and cheaper refrigeration. The CFC/ ozone issue was artificially created to ban CFCs and introduce global control through the Montreal Protocol. It, like the Kyoto Protocol was a massive, expensive, unnecessary solution to a non-existent problem.
TCOR and later UNEP’s Agenda 21 adopted and expanded the Malthusian idea of overpopulation to all resources making it the central tenet of all their politics and policies. The IPCC was set up to assign the blame of global warming and latterly climate change on human produced CO2 from an industrialized expanding population. They both developed from false assumptions, used manipulated data and science, which they combined into computer models whose projections were, not surprisingly, wrong. The result is the fallacy of global warming due to human CO2 is a subset built on the fallacy of overpopulation.
It has taken me some time to complete that post whilst doing other stuff, and the post from Richard has dropped in before I submitted it. I am not answering the points you make Richard. To do so would just allow this thread to deteriorate further.
Chris says:
January 13, 2014 at 1:26 am
_______________________
You haven’t left? Good! I misread, or you implied a farewell address.
That’s an interesting quote from Richard S. Courtney- “being economical with the truth” – wouldn’t you agree? Anyone posting anonymously while claiming otherwise is not making a case for their own veracity, right? I am not making any sort of case against people posting anonymously. I used to do that, myself. It’s the ideas we’re getting at anyway, not the person.
What are your ideas that have you in the spotlight?
Everything you have said and done here has been to maintain that “there is no man behind the curtain”. We’ll keep pulling back the curtain. Who’s we? So far, only Richard S. Courtney, Gail Combs and Alan Robertson (all real) have been talking about your tricks. By all means keep it up. The more that see what you’re up to, the better. Also, the more people that view this fight (that’s what you’ve made it,) the more that might have new insight and prove me wrong. That’s how we find out who and what’s real.
Chris:
At January 13, 2014 at 3:51 am you have written a post which says in total
I am bemused.
If I understand your post correctly then it asserts you could “deteriorate” this thread more than you already have. I am at a loss to understand how you could do that, and I would welcome an explanation of how anybody could do that.
Richard
otropogo says:
January 8, 2014 at 3:04 pm
———————-
My point is otropogo is that when you look at ALL the energy at our disposal and the new innovations taking place from time to time there really should be no panic in your lifetime or mine. France gets 70% of its power from nuclear. No Fukishima or Tsunami to disrupt there power generation.
If we really had to we could get oil from algae and there is a lot of work being carried out on that now using co2 from power plants. So you can still ride your bike. 😉 My point is that innovations are ongoing and I repeat we will not run out of usable energy.
Mini nuclear plant can power 20,000 homes, almost zero maintenance, run for over 7 to 10 years.
http://phys.org/news145561984.html
Algal biofuels
http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/green-science/algae-biodiesel2.htm
Richard S Courtney:
I will clarify what you have asked. I was in the middle of writing a reply to Otropogo when you posted your remark. I only saw your remark when I submitted my post; hence, chronologically yours appeared before my post to otropogo. Furthermore, my post was awaiting moderation so I don’t know when it actually appeared – probably after I did actually reply to you. Is that ok?
Good post Jimbo. Nuclear energy does not have to be the dirty word here. The risks from nuclear power plants are very low. Even the Fukishima disaster had a very low casualty rate. And this was in an area where a tsunami caused an interruption in the cold water supply that cools the reactors. Ordinarily there is no issue globally. Yes, there is the issue of nuclear waste, but controlled disposal is perfectly achievable. Great progress is being made in nuclear fusion technology. We are at a point where we can instigate the reaction but are not able to maintain it and the net input is disproportionate to the output currently. However, we are clever people, and with enough investment I really think we could find the answer to all the purported energy problems.
I was watching the news tonight ( in the UK) and our Prime Minister is really advocating the use of fracking to supply our gas needs. Unfortunately, where he gives with one hand the Conservatives have taken away with another by closing the coal pits in the UK and forcing us to buy coal from overseas, moving our carbon footprint, but not reducing it. The only issue I have with this is that gas is relatively cheap (4 or 5 pence per Kw/h) whereas electricity is very expensive ( as much as 25p per Kw/h, depending upon who supplies you). Therefore we need to be concentrating on cheaper electricity production in the UK and not gas. There is a mountain of coal. We should be using it if we accept that Co2 is not a threat, which is what I believe. Meanwhile, investment in nuclear fission / and medium to long term investment in nuclear fusion technology should be our goal.
Many millions of pounds are thrown into ventures like the Large Hadron Collider. If we can invest money in finding our beginnings, then surely we can invest money in our energy requirements – achievable, sustainable one’s? And not throwing money at the IPCC just to prove or not a point would be a good start.
Technology deployment depends on cultural maturity. In the age of corporate feudalism where shoddy work is ignored and accountability for catastrophe democratized, all advances beyond the windmill are highly dangerous tools in the hands of malignant dwarfs. Technology can be invented, but the gross minconduct of the over-arching criminal culture ensures it will fail. Fukushima is but one cautionary tale. GMO seeds are another. Men must evolve or we will die from hubris.
Jimbo
However, I don’t believe algal fuels are a realistic alternative. The logistics with regard to required space to achieve this are massive. You are talking tens of thousands of Olympic sized swimming pools to scratch the surface of our energy requirements. We simply don’t have the space, especially if some amongst us insist that we can support an ever increasing population. Do we give up the land taken by our cows and sheep to provide algal oil?
charles stegiel:
The conclusion of your post at January 13, 2014 at 10:55 am says
All men will die and so will all women unless humans evolve to avoid it.
The remainder of your post is similarly divorced from reality.
Richard
charles stegiel says:
January 13, 2014 at 10:55 am
Technology deployment depends on cultural maturity. In the age of corporate feudalism where shoddy work is ignored and accountability for catastrophe democratized, all advances beyond the windmill are highly dangerous tools in the hands of malignant dwarfs. Technology can be invented, but the gross minconduct of the over-arching criminal culture ensures it will fail.
——————————————————————————————————————————–
I have read this a couple of times and I am trying to grasp the sentiment here.
If I have this right, you seem to be suggesting that we have available to us technology that is beyond us. Is that a fair interpretation?
If it is then you do have a point in so much as we need to be very careful with what technology has given us. You have to look at the time frame that man has been on the earth and compare that to how quickly all this technology has been available to us. I made a reference to giving a gun to a monkey in one of my earlier posts. I really don’t think we are at a position where we know how to properly protect ourselves from ourselves. It’s very interesting to see what we have achieved in little over 150 years. It is an exponential increase in technology that is disproportionate to the advances that humans have made in the same time. A few individuals with intelligence way beyond your average person have brought on a technology explosion. The warning signs are there that perhaps we can’t cope with it all and the fatalists would say it is a recipe for disaster. We’ll see won’t we.
You then said
“Fukushima is but one cautionary tale”
Fukushima was caused by a natural event. What it did teach everyone is that under no circumstances can you cut off the water supply to a nuclear reactor. Hopefully, what happened at Fukushima will ensure all stations in areas prone to earthquakes / tsunami’s have adequate protection.
Humans have become very self aware. When we used to look at the sun it was put there by the gods. The world didn’t turn, the god’s moved the sun across the sky. Now, we put people on the moon, send spacecraft to Mars, search for aliens and build the LHC to find out how the Universe started. We want to know how everything works and why. Is that a good definition of Hubris – perhaps?
We also want to prove that we can achieve everything, like support billions more people. Why, because we think we can – is that Hubris too? And that brings me nicely back to the point I have been making all along – should we?
Chris
Chris says:
January 13, 2014 at 7:52 pm
You then said
“Fukushima is but one cautionary tale”
Fukushima was caused by a natural event. What it did teach everyone is that under no circumstances can you cut off the water supply to a nuclear reactor. Hopefully, what happened at Fukushima will ensure all stations in areas prone to earthquakes / tsunami’s have adequate protection.
Humans have become very self aware. When we used to look at the sun it was put there by the gods. The world didn’t turn, the god’s moved the sun across the sky. Now, we put people on the moon, send spacecraft to Mars, search for aliens and build the LHC to find out how the Universe started. We want to know how everything works and why. Is that a good definition of Hubris – perhaps?
We also want to prove that we can achieve everything, like support billions more people. Why, because we think we can – is that Hubris too? And that brings me nicely back to the point I have been making all along – should we?
Chris
_________________________
And that brings me back to the point I’ve been making all along.
@ur momisugly Jimbo says:
January 13, 2014 at 9:44 am
otropogo says:
January 8, 2014 at 3:04 pm
———————-
“My point is otropogo is that when you look at ALL the energy at our disposal and the new innovations taking place from time to time there really should be no panic in your lifetime or mine.”
Jimbo (and Chris), can you say “pie in the sky”?
“France gets 70% of its power from nuclear. No Fukishima or Tsunami to disrupt there power generation.”
Sure, and before March, 2011, I’m sure you would have said the same about Japan. Atomic waste is easily disposable? Tell that to Frau Merkel, who’s being trying to find a way for years. And how long would France’s nuclear power plants continue to run, if the supply of uranium stopped flowing?
“If we really had to we could get oil from algae and there is a lot of work being carried out on that now using co2 from power plants.”
On what time scale?
In my area there’s a 100km stretch of highway through the Rocky Mountains that has never had cell phone coverage. The local politicians have only just discovered this hole in our public safety net, despite the complaints of the thousands of constituents who’ve been put at risk by it for the last two decades. It requires the positioning of a cellular repeater tower on a small pad on one of the peaks overlooking the route. And now that the need has been recognized by the powers that be, it’s expected to take another three years to install this rather simple, off the shelf machinery.
If you’re suggesting humanity can simply roll out local algae based food production and mini nuclear power plants on a global scale to replace a sudden loss of global food and energy production and/or distribution, I can only conclude that you don’t have a clue as to how the world functions.
Alan Robertson says:
January 14, 2014 at 4:49 am
Chris says:
January 13, 2014 at 7:52 pm
You then said
“Fukushima is but one cautionary tale”
Fukushima was caused by a natural event. What it did teach everyone is that under no circumstances can you cut off the water supply to a nuclear reactor. Hopefully, what happened at Fukushima will ensure all stations in areas prone to earthquakes / tsunami’s have adequate protection.
Humans have become very self aware. When we used to look at the sun it was put there by the gods. The world didn’t turn, the god’s moved the sun across the sky. Now, we put people on the moon, send spacecraft to Mars, search for aliens and build the LHC to find out how the Universe started. We want to know how everything works and why. Is that a good definition of Hubris – perhaps?
We also want to prove that we can achieve everything, like support billions more people. Why, because we think we can – is that Hubris too? And that brings me nicely back to the point I have been making all along – should we?
Chris
_________________________
And that brings me back to the point I’ve been making all along.
++++++++++++++++
I would like to add to the excellent comment by Alan Robertson:
Alan says “Fukushima was caused by a natural event. What it did teach everyone is that under no circumstances can you cut off the water supply to a nuclear reactor. Hopefully, what happened at Fukushima will ensure all stations in areas prone to earthquakes / tsunami’s have adequate protection.”
True, very true. Their diesel generators, which were secondary backup, were flooded and useless. In the US, we have batter carts which can be mobilized in the case of flooding. Still we can do better and we are. Consider all of the damage caused by nuclear, and it pales in comparison to almost any other human activity. Nuclear is safe by almost any measure. And – I want to say I get paid because of the irrational fears. If I had my way, I’d have to find other ways to make money. But I fill a void created by irrational fears.
Mario Lento says:
January 14, 2014 at 4:16 pm
_____________
Hello Mario,
Chris made the comment about Fukushima. I inadvertently copied too much of what Chris said and diminished my own words. Chris made good points about Fukushima and I did not aim my comment at those words.
Here is what I said: “And that brings me back to the point I’ve been making all along.”
I was commenting on these words by Chris:
“We also want to prove that we can achieve everything, like support billions more people. Why, because we think we can – is that Hubris too? And that brings me nicely back to the point I have been making all along – should we?”
_______________________
Chris would like us to accept the idea that there are too many human beings.
That idea is groundless and is the single most dangerous idea which Humanity has ever faced. The very darkest elements of human society have advanced that idea as if it were a fact which cannot be challenged, wielding it as both religious dogma and a cause célèbre. By doing so, they have already caused the suffering and deaths of untold millions of people What they have in mind for the rest of us is detailed in their own words, which have been mentioned and linked in this thread.
The purveyors of mass death have not ceased their attempts to recruit the minds of their intended victims into their hidden cause. The efforts of TCOR and others can only succeed after being broadly accepted within the human population. No matter how reasonable the idea might be made to seem, Chris’s idea should be stamped out wherever it is found.
Alan Robertson says:
January 14, 2014 at 6:45 pm
+++++++
Excellent post Alan. Great that your points are now more in the open! I completely agree with your line of thought and your teachings Alan.
People like Chris are exposed to the truth from people like you –and the truth points to so much damage that people like Chris cannot see it. It is unfathomable to people like Chirs because he sees himself as a good and altruistic person. To open up to the reality of his ilk, would be life changing for Chris. Life changing events are rare. If there was a way that Chris could feel the wrath of the dark side of his ilk’s policies, without the actual harm that those policies cause others, maybe he’d see the error in his thinking.
Well, I have really had my eyes opened now. I can’t decide whether I inadvertently find myself in some kind of religious rant or an episode of Star Wars. I hear references to one’s teachings and ‘feeling the wrath of the dark side.’
May I just be selfish (and not altruistic – another false claim against me) for a second and clarify a point here. It is up to me to decide which information I take as truth. There is no truth in conspiracy theories – even my own – much of it is conjecture. I take any theory, evidence or suggestion at face value and then decide for myself how much credibility it has. I do not need other people deciding for me what I should or should not be opening my eyes to. Conversely, all I have done is express my opinion on given scenarios. I have not told anyone that what I say is correct or that it is the truth.
I actually don’t think I have seen so many posts before that blatently misconstrue the words of a person. You are hounding me out of my opinion and making allegation after allegation. Ordinarily I would probably remind you that you are making these allegations against me ( be it by false association) in a public forum. However, given that people are evidently taking everything out of context and putting words in my mouth for me. I am not concerned quite frankly.
I have just read back and realised that Mario Lento responded to part of a post that was written by me, thinking that it was written by Alan.
Firstly, it is of no consequence to me that someone is commenting positively on anything I have said or part of my post. What is more of importance was that Alan was so quick to disassociate himself from me by pointing out to Mario that he had in fact quoted me.
Chuckles quietly to himself
Alan said:
Chris would like us to accept the idea that there are too many human beings.
That idea is groundless and is the single most dangerous idea which Humanity has ever faced. The very darkest elements of human society have advanced that idea as if it were a fact which cannot be challenged, wielding it as both religious dogma and a cause célèbre. By doing so, they have already caused the suffering and deaths of untold millions of people What they have in mind for the rest of us is detailed in their own words, which have been mentioned and linked in this thread.
The purveyors of mass death have not ceased their attempts to recruit the minds of their intended victims into their hidden cause. The efforts of TCOR and others can only succeed after being broadly accepted within the human population. No matter how reasonable the idea might be made to seem, Chris’s idea should be stamped out wherever it is found.
———————————————————————————————————————————
I have never made any reference to “The Church of Rome”
I have made reference to Thomas Malthus only. And from the outset I pointed out that the man showed quite a lot of foresight as to the future of man. He did not at any point say that he proposed mass extermination. It also DOES NOT FOLLOW that I am suggesting it either. I have also asked for anyone to provide me with evidence that Malthus either said or intended what you so vocally suggest.
As for any theories I have being groundless. There is much discussion on both sides that argue whether or not a larger population can be supported. I have made references to current levels of poverty in the world. Is it groundless to suggest that we can’t support a larger population when clearly there are people living in poverty now. I put to you that these are very good grounds to discuss the merits.
I would ask that you clarify who or what you are referring to when you describe “the very darkest elements of society” It should follow then that I may know which millions of people you are referring to.
I note in your last sentence you refer to Chris’ idea. I didn’t realise I had just come up with an idea. I thought all I had done was reference the words of a theorist in the 1800’s. I have explained in my earlier posts how I came to hear of the view that a larger population can be supported. I also first read of TCOR (as you abbreviate it) in this topic. So given my rather recent introduction I am afraid I can’t claim to have come up with any ideas. Nor have I been brainwashed by TCOR, much to my relief.
But thank you for your view Alan – your comments and the extremity of them have been duly noted.
Chris.:
At January 15, 2014 at 3:50 am you write:
I do not believe you because it would require that you do not read your own words.
For example, at January 7, 2014 at 7:27 am I wrote saying to you
And you replied to that at January 7, 2014 at 7:55 am saying to me
Clearly, I made no such “reference”. Your response was an attempt to ignore my point.
This thread consists of your doing this to several people.
There is an aphorism about a pot and a kettle.
Richard
Chris:
Your post at January 15, 2014 at 6:40 am is more ‘pot and kettle’.
The extremism is yours and not Alan’s.
You are the one advocating reducing the human population, not him.
Alan is only pointing out that you are calling for genocide, which you are.
Richard
Mario Lento says:
January 14, 2014 at 7:07 pm
“People like Chris are exposed to the truth from people like you –and the truth points to so much damage that people like Chris cannot see it. It is unfathomable to people like Chirs because he sees himself as a good and altruistic person.”
__________________________
Mario,
I am not too sure about your good faith in others, especially when their behavior has triggered certain responses in this thread. I’m quite sure that you see yourself as a good and altruistic person. I know it’s hard to realize that people would believe in, or support the idea and make it the basis for entire global “causes”. Can we describe others as altruistic when in their own words, they say that they are not altruistic? From Wiki: Altruism or selflessness is the principle or practice of concern for the welfare of others. As for myself, I do not find altruism to be a motive of anyone supporting the horrific idea that there are too many human beings.
@ur momisugly Chris,
You have stated that you are entitled to your own opinion. Well, so am I, so are we.
Here’s my opinion- in a nutshell- there is no middle ground here:
Those who decry the reaper, but sharpen the scythe, write their claim of innocence in blood.
You have associated yourself with the idea that there are too many human beings. You have also stated that you do not believe in the extreme horrific goals of others who are on record as promoting the reduction of mankind by whatever means. Nevertheless, you keep inserting yourself as a shield of defense between those who would reduce humanity and those who stand against those monsters.
Standing in front of the target and whining about the arrows is exceedingly bad form, but to then threaten the archers is the epitome of folly, n’est ce pas?
Well, there have been some number of comments since I started my response to Mario…
nothing has changed and there is nothing new to see.
Alan Robertson says:
January 15, 2014 at 8:04 am
Mario Lento says:
January 14, 2014 at 7:07 pm
++++++++
Alan I defer to your good judgment here and side with your sentiments and truth vis a vis Chris. To me, these sorts of people are a stain on the idea of a free society. Perhaps I should have not assumed that Chris truly believes himself as being good. But I know of many people who if they could see themselves as I do, would no longer be able to see themselves in a positive fashion. That’s where I was trying to go with my comment. The lines are sometimes very fine between evil and mental illness.
Mario Lento says:
January 15, 2014 at 8:17 am
________________
Thanks Mario. This is tricky business and encouragement helps. Your words bring up more aspects of what we all must overcome. When we don’t have it within ourselves, we can’t see it in others. It’s difficult for us to accept the truth of things which exist beyond our own experience or beliefs. Once we pick up the knife, our fate answers for the blood we spill.
I didn’t realise I was in some sort of religious forum.
These posts by Alan Robertson and Richard S Courtney are a perfect example of the danger with the internet.
It has resulted in me being accused of supporting genocide, mass murder, extermination etc etc.
And all for simply stating that I think the world is over populated. All I believe is that we don’t need any more humans on the planet. Nothing more and nothing less. And that is my opinion – not yours to decide for me.
I believe that man made climate change is a con. But I do not believe it is being driven by a desire to reduce global population. I don’t really care if anyone doesn’t believe me – what I believe is all that matters here.
I am not a religious person and I do not believe in God. And that is my prerogative. Life is precious and if it is the case that TCOR are actually proposing killing people then I would never agree with that. I simply believe we don’t need any more humans on the planet.
There is more going on in the world that concerns me like the amount I am having to pay for my energy bills. The rest is just semantics.
Chris says:
January 10, 2014 at 4:59 am
Gail Combs said:
….Pascal Lamy while World Trade Organization Director-General stated quite clearly the ultimate
—————————————————————————————————————————-
And there was me thinking that WUWT was about disputing all the false claims being made about climate change. I didn’t realise it was more about proving conspiracy theories!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
What are you talking about? It is not a ” conspiracy theory” when a world leader flat out states the decision was made in the 1930’s to do away with national sovereignty or as he put it ” the Westphalian, sacrosanct principle of sovereignty”
If the USA is a vassal state of the UN as the UK is a vassal state of the EU then the bureaucrats in the UN will write our laws. Heck they are ALREADY writing our laws.
If we as citizens have no say in our government then we are nothing better than serfs. The UN has already made it clear that property (land) rights have to go.
Dude, if you can not OWN property (and therefore grow your own food) then you ARE property!