Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
I’ve been reflecting over the last few days about how the climate system of the earth functions as a giant natural heat engine. A “heat engine”, whether natural or man-made, is a mechanism that converts heat into mechanical energy of some kind. In the case of the climate system, the heat of the sun is converted into the mechanical energy of the ocean and the atmosphere. The seawater and atmosphere are what are called the “working fluids” of the heat engine. The movement of the air and the seawater transports an almost unimaginably large amount of heat from the tropics to the poles. Now, none of the above are new ideas, or are original with me. I simply got to wondering about what the CERES data could show regarding the poleward transport of that energy by the climate heat engine. Figure 1 gives that result:
Figure 1. Exports of energy from the tropics, in W/m2, averaged over the exporting area. The figures show the net of the energy entering and leaving the TOA above each 1°x1° gridcell. It is calculated from the CERES data as solar minus upwelling radiation (longwave + shortwave). Of course, if more energy is constantly entering a TOA gridcell than is leaving it, that energy must be being exported horizontally. The average amount exported from between the two light blue bands is 44 W/m2 (amount exported / exporting area).
We can see some interesting aspects of the climate heat engine in this graph.
First, like all heat engines, the climate heat engine doesn’t work off of a temperature. It works off of a temperature difference. A heat engine needs both a hot end and a cold end. After the working fluid is heated at the hot end, and the engine has extracted work from incoming energy, the remaining heat must be rejected from the working fluid. To do this, the working fluid must be moved to some location where the temperature is lower than at the hot end of the engine.
As a result, there is a constant flow of energy across the blue line. In part this is because at the poles, so little energy is coming from the sun. Over Antarctica and the Arctic ocean, the sun is only providing about a quarter of the radiated longwave energy, only about 40 W/m2, with the remainder being energy exported from the tropics. The energy is transported by the two working fluids, seawater and air. In total, the CERES data shows that there is a constant energy flux across those blue lines of about six petawatts (6e+15 watts) flowing northwards, and six petawatts flowing southwards for a total of twelve petawatts. And how much energy is twelve petawatts when it’s at home?
Well … at present all of humanity consumes about fifteen terawatts (15e+12) on a global average basis. This means that the amount of energy constantly flowing from the equator to the poles is about eight-hundred times the total energy utilized by humans … as I said, it’s an almost unimaginable amount of energy. Not only that, but that 12 petawatts is only 10% of the 120 petawatts of solar energy that is constantly being absorbed by the climate system.
Next, over the land, the area which is importing energy is much closer to the equator than over the sea. I assume this is because of the huge heat capacity of the ocean, and its consequent ability to transport the heat further polewards.
Next, overall the ocean is receiving more energy than it radiates, so it is exporting energy … and the land is radiating more than it receives, so it is getting energy from the ocean. In part, this is because of the difference in solar heating. Figure 2, which looks much like Figure 1, shows the net amount of solar radiation absorbed by the climate system. I do love investigating this stuff, there’s so much to learn. For example, I was unaware that the land, on average, receives about 40 W/m2 less energy from the sun than does the ocean, as is shown in Figure 2.
(Daedalus, of course, would not let this opportunity pass without pointing out that this means we could easily control the planet’s temperature by the simple expedient of increasing the amount of land. For each square metre of land added, we get 40 W/m2 less absorbed energy over that square metre, which is about ten doublings of CO2. And the amount would be perhaps double that in tropical waters. So Daedalus calculates that if we make land by filling in shallow tropical oceans equal to say a mere 5% of the planet, it would avoid an amount of downwelling radiation equal to a doubling of CO2. The best part of Daedalus’s plan is his slogan, “We have to pave the planet to save the planet” … but I digress).
Figure 2. Net solar energy entering the climate system, in watts per square metre (W/m2). Annual averages.
You can see the wide range in the amount of sunlight hitting the earth, from a low of 48 W/m2 at the poles to a high of 365 W/m2 in parts of the tropics.
Now, I bring up these two Figures to highlight the concept of the climate system as a huge natural heat engine. As with all heat engines, energy enters at the hot end, in this case the tropics. It is converted into mechanical motion of seawater and air, which transports the excess heat to the poles where it is radiated to space.
Now, the way that we control the output of a heat engine is by using something called a “throttle”. A throttle controls the amount of energy entering a heat engine. A throttle is what is controlled by the gas pedal in a car. As the name suggests, a throttle restricts the energy entering the system. As a result, the throttle controls the operating parameters (temperature, work produced, etc.) of the heat engine.
So the question naturally arises … in the climate heat engine, what functions as the throttle? The answer, of course, is the clouds. They restrict the amount of energy entering the system. And where is the most advantageous place to throttle the heat engine shown in Figure 2? Well, you have to do it at the hot end where the energy enters the system. And you’d want to do it near the equator, where you can choke off the most energy.
In practice, a large amount of this throttling occurs at the Inter-Tropical Convergence Zone (ITCZ). As the name suggests, this is where the two separately circulating hemispheric air masses interact. On average this is north of the equator in the Pacific and Atlantic, and south of the equator in the Indian Ocean. The ITCZ is revealed most clearly by Figure 3, which shows how much sunlight the planet is reflecting.
Figure 3. Total reflected solar radiation. Areas of low reflection are shown in red, because the low reflection leads to increased solar heating. The average ITCZ can be seen as the yellow/green areas just above the Equator in the Atlantic and Pacific, and just below the Equator in the Indian Ocean.
In Figure 3, we can see how the ITCZ clouds are throttling the incoming solar energy. Were it not for the clouds, the tropical oceans in that area would reflect less than 80 W/m2 (as we see in the red areas outlined above and below the ITCZ) and the oceans would be much warmer. By throttling the incoming sunshine, areas near the Equator end up much cooler than they would be otherwise.
Now … all of the above has been done with averages. But the clouds don’t form based on average conditions. They form based only and solely on current conditions. And the nature of the tropical clouds is that generally, the clouds don’t form in the mornings, when the sea surface is cool from its nocturnal overturning.
Instead, the clouds form after the ocean has warmed up to some critical temperature. Once it passes that point, and generally over a period of less than an hour, a fully-developed cumulus cloud layer emerges. The emergence is threshold based. The important thing to note about this process is that the critical threshold at which the clouds form is based on temperature and the physics of air, wind and water. The threshold is not based on CO2. It is not a function of instantaneous forcing. The threshold is based on temperature and pressure and the physics of the immediate situation.
This means that the tropical clouds emerge earlier when the morning is warmer than usual. And when the morning is cooler, the cumulus emerge later or not at all. So if on average there is a bit more forcing, from solar cycles or changes in CO2 or excess water vapor in the air, the clouds form earlier, and the excess forcing is neatly counteracted.
Now, if my hypothesis is correct, then we should be able to find evidence for this dependence of the tropical clouds on the temperature. If the situation is in fact as I’ve stated above, where the tropical clouds act as a throttle because they increase when the temperatures go up, then evidence would be found in the correlation of surface temperature with albedo. Figure 4 shows that relationship.
Figure 4. Correlation of surface temperature and albedo, calculated on a 1°x1° gridcell basis. Blue and green areas are where albedo and temperature are negatively correlated. Red and orange show positive correlation, where increasing albedo is associated with increasing temperature.
Over the extratropical land, because of the association of ice and snow (high albedo) and low temperatures, the correlation between temperature and albedo is negative. However, remember that little of the suns energy is going there.
In the tropics where the majority of energy enters the system, on the other hand, warmer surface temperatures lead to more clouds, so the correlation is positive, and strongly positive in some areas.
Now, consider what happens when increasing clouds cause a reduction in temperature, and increasing temperatures cause an increase in clouds. At some point, the two lines will cross, and the temperature will oscillate around that set point. When the surface is cooler than that temperature, clouds will form later, and there will be less clouds, sun will pour in uninterrupted, and the surface will warm up.
And when the surface is warmer than that temperature, clouds will form earlier, there will be more clouds, and higher albedo, and more reflection, and the surface will cool down.
Net result? A very effective thermostat. This thermostat works in conjunction with other longer-term thermostatic phenomena to maintain the amazing thermal stability of the planet. People agonize about a change of six-tenths of a degree last century … but consider the following:
• The climate system is only running at about 70% throttle.
• The average temperature of the system is ~ 286K.
• The throttle of the climate system is controlled by nothing more solid than clouds, which are changing constantly.
• The global average surface temperature is maintained at a level significantly warmer than what would be predicted for a planet without an atmosphere containing water vapor, CO2, and other greenhouse gases.
Despite all of that, over the previous century the total variation in temperature was ≈ ± 0.3K. This is a variation of less than a tenth of one percent.
For a system as large, complex, ephemeral, and possibly unstable as the climate, I see this as clear evidence for the existence of a thermostatic system of some sort controlling the temperature. Perhaps the system doesn’t work as I have posited above … but it is clear to me that there must be some kind of system keeping the temperature variations within a tenth of a percent over a century.
Regards to all,
w.
PS—The instability of a modeled climate system without some thermostatic mechanism is well illustrated by the thousands of runs of the ClimatePredictionNet climate model:
Note how many of the runs end up in unrealistically high or low temperatures, due to the lack of any thermostatic control mechanisms.


Trick says:
December 25, 2013 at 8:02 pm (replying to)
OK. So, real world situation, real world matter, real world atmosphere – that “is” what we must deal with, right? That “is” what we are measuring, right?
So, at today’s 400 ppm Co2 levels, today’s atmosphere, in the Arctic.
If clouds are present at 3,000 meters, 20,000 meters and thinner, wispy ones above that level, , what temperature is the real-world ice radiating “into” if the ice surface is at -25 C? Gray bodies all, real-world emissivity on all, real world conditions at noon at latitude 85 north on the solstice at Dec 22?
What are the actual radiation heat transfer constants to be used in what equation? (Yes, it would be dark: I’m requesting you get out of argon-filled Einstein thought-experiments and do the real engineering to produce real results.)
Now, same latitude, a few nights later. “Perfectly clear” star-filled night with no wind, no haze, no clouds. Open ocean surface at +2 degrees C, black night air at -35 degrees (or is it “space” at 0 K ?) . How much energy is radiated into “what” temperature?
Trick says, December 25, 2013 at 8:02 pm:
“There is no requirement in derivation and application of Planck’s law or S-B for either a vacuum or surroundings much, much colder than the object in question that I can find in the text books I mentioned. So your long post fails to agree with even Planck himself in his own writings. It is too long to parse.”
Hehe, well if you had parsed it, you would’ve discovered that I explain why the S-B equation requires a vacuum or surroundings much, much colder than the warm object. Again, did you read the hyperphysics links? It seems you didn’t. Much more convenient then to just say there are too many words, so I can’t be bothered to even consider what you’re writing.
“Specifically Planck, Brehm, Bohren formulas all calculate the avg. global surface of the earth at Tmean around 288K emits around 396 W/m^2 give or take not 50-60 W/m^2 so I don’t buy your arguments.”
Ah, so their formulas calculate a flux of 396 W/m^2. Yes, impressive circular reasoning.
“Earth surface instrumentation looking down measures every day in the range of 396 UWIR nowhere near constantly 50-60. So ~396 comes from theory and experiment & adds up across many authors & experimentalists in the field where 50-60 does not.”
Sigh, do we have to go through that whole pyrgeometer thing AGAIN? THEY DO NOT MEASURE IN THE MEANING DETECT A FLUX OF 396 W/m^2, TRICK! It is purely internally calculated, specifically based on the misconception I described in my last post. What is detected is the HEAT, the P/A, the energy actually transferred from the higher-temperature surface towards the lower-temperature atmosphere as a result of the temperature difference. And then knowing the surface temperature, it’s pretty easy to derive an assumed downward and upward component of the actual flux up. But these are still only assumed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrgeometer#Measurement_of_long_wave_downward_radiation
http://tallbloke.wordpress.com/2013/04/26/pyrgeometers-untangled/
TimTheToolMan says, December 25, 2013 at 8:12 pm:
“It doesn’t matter how thick the atmosphere is, once both atmosphere and planet reach the same temperature, net conduction is zero and can have no impact on the planet’s overall temperature.”
Read my two replies to Konrad on this thread:
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/12/21/the-magnificent-climate-heat-engine/#comment-1511573
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/12/21/the-magnificent-climate-heat-engine/#comment-1512113
You cannot make an atmosphere around a planet isothermal just like that.
The only thing that matters in addition to the solar input, is the atmospheric weight on the surface. That is what in the end will determine the surface temperature.
Kristian 8:37pm:
Again, did you read the hyperphysics links? It seems you didn’t.
Find “vacuum”. Find “much”. No matches found.
Yes, I did read them. Nothing about vacuum or surroundings much, much colder in either. What was too long was your text and eqn.s. Therein is a disagreement with the text books I ref. You wrote it, way easier for you to find where the disagreement resides. And let us know.
“THEY DO NOT MEASURE IN THE MEANING DETECT A FLUX OF 396 W/m^2, TRICK!”
Shouting won’t help me. Thermometers “do not measure in the meaning detect a” temperature of 288K either. So Kristian must really be lost. Thermometer’s readers usually observe the response of a pool of mercury which is calibrated exactly in the manner of a pyrgeometer. Sometimes thermometers use a coiled spring also calibrated to move a pointer exactly in the manner of a mercury thermometer.
I am hard-pressed to think of any instrument where “THEY DO MEASURE IN THE MEANING DETECT (insert physical item)”. A bathroom scale is calibrated to measure weight on earth. Apparently Kristian doesn’t believe any instrumentation. Yet a car engine starts, warms up, drives. They blast off rockets with payloads past Pluto close enough. My computer works, doesn’t fry the processor. My bathroom scale is close enough. Where is the secret Kristian instrumentation w/o misconception they used to design & then build such energy flow stuff that measures w/o any calibration?
Come to think of it, Boeing builds and flies the 1st airplane S/N 0001. Pilots must believe the instrument calibrations are good enough & without misconceptions.
RACookPE1978 says, December 25, 2013 at 8:15 pm:
“If clouds are present at 3,000 meters, 20,000 meters and thinner, wispy ones above that level, , what temperature is the real-world ice radiating “into” if the ice surface is at -25 C? Gray bodies all, real-world emissivity on all, real world conditions at noon at latitude 85 north on the solstice at Dec 22?”
Precisely. We cannot know the atmospheric temperature towards which the surface is radiating. We can’t measure the average. So we only know and detect the flux actually going out, the HEAT. And the surface temperature. From this we can then calculate the assumed flux radiated down from the ‘average’ atmosphere to the surface. According to the misused S-B equation, then, the global atmosphere is radiating down to the surface from an average emission temperature of around 278K (5C). What kind of mean temperature is that? It is 10 degrees cooler than the global surface of the Earth. So it can’t be the nearest air layer. But it’s 23 degrees warmer than the postulated ‘effective radiating level’ 5 kilometres up. Let’s say the air layer just above the surface is on average 2-3 degrees cooler than the actual surface. Then the estimated atmospheric radiating level down to the surface from above would be situated 1-1.2 km up.
In reality, the surface radiates upward along a temperature gradient rather than an absolute difference in temperature between two specific layers. This is the reason why the surface radiates less in humid than in arid conditions, or when clouds cover the sky. Because the temperature gradient from the surface up through the air column above is reduced.
On a global scale, though, the temperature gradient away from the surface is set by the adiabatic lapse rate. Which is a product only of 1) the atmosphere’s specific heat capacity, 2) Earth’s gravitational acceleration, and 3) the H2O release of latent heat in the air column. The observed global environmental lapse rate (-6.5K/km) is maintained at or around the quasi-moist adiabatic lapse rate through the constant interplay between the direct coupling of solar surface heating and convection. Best seen in the tropical oceans.
This will not change easily.
Kristian 8:47pm: “The only thing that matters in addition to the solar input, is the atmospheric weight on the surface. That is what in the end will determine the surface temperature.”
Here, knock yourself out Kristian, with g=9.8m/sec/sec:
Earth Solar irradiance 1367.6 W/m^2 current epoch
Atm. mass = 5.15×10^18 kg
Determine the surface temperature.
willis;
Sorry, misread the temps being compared . Cancel my above. 2^4 is indeed 16, as you say.
Kristian writes “You cannot make an atmosphere around a planet isothermal just like that.”
Not a “normal” atmosphere, no. But this is an all Argon atmosphere over a thermally superconducting planet. Its a thought experiment and initially a temperature inversion will occur as the warmer Argon moves to the top of the atmosphere but eventually when all the Argon has attained the 300K (from my example) then it will be isothermal.
Specifically what process in this thought experiment atmosphere do you believe will change that?
Even your ideal argon atmosphere will leak heat from the top by boiling off mass. Uh-oh.
Brian H writes “Even your ideal argon atmosphere will leak heat from the top by boiling off mass. ”
Of course. And it will still radiate some too. Reality has no place in Willis’ though experiments, though. His point was to explore a no-GHG, thick atmosphere 😉
Trick says:
December 25, 2013 at 8:02 pm
Since energy is neither created nor destroyed, the energy content of the system is unchanged, and the First Law is upheld. The First Law says nothing about what the resulting temperature might be.
This apparent anomaly occurs because temperature is not conserved, but energy is conserved.
In addition, the energy varies as temperature to the fourth power. As a result, different arrangements of the same amount of energy flux will have different resultant average temperatures.
I go over all of this in “The Moon Is A Cold Mistress“, you might enjoy a romp through it.
Best regards,
w.
” TimTheToolMan says:
December 25, 2013 at 10:43 pm
Kristian writes “You cannot make an atmosphere around a planet isothermal just like that.”
Not a “normal” atmosphere, no. But this is an all Argon atmosphere over a thermally superconducting planet. Its a thought experiment and initially a temperature inversion will occur as the warmer Argon moves to the top of the atmosphere but eventually when all the Argon has attained the 300K (from my example) then it will be isothermal.
Specifically what process in this thought experiment atmosphere do you believe will change that?”
If you have differnce of elevation of say 10,000 meters, do imagine the temperature will be the same at 10,000 meter elevation as compare to 2 meter elevation.
Or are saying there will be an adiabatic lapse rate?
Trick says, December 25, 2013 at 9:28 pm:
“Here, knock yourself out Kristian, with g=9.8m/sec/sec:
Earth Solar irradiance 1367.6 W/m^2 current epoch
Atm. mass = 5.15×10^18 kg
Determine the surface temperature.”
Trick. This is why discussing anything with you is a waste of time.
TSI: 1362 W/m^2. Atmospheric content of so-called GHGs: >0.5%.
Determine the surface temperature. Have a ball.
Trick, there is no ‘surface temperature formula’.
Trick says, December 25, 2013 at 9:16 pm:
“Find “vacuum”. Find “much”. No matches found.”
Right.
TimTheToolMan says, December 25, 2013 at 10:43 pm:
“Not a “normal” atmosphere, no. But this is an all Argon atmosphere over a thermally superconducting planet. Its a thought experiment and initially a temperature inversion will occur as the warmer Argon moves to the top of the atmosphere but eventually when all the Argon has attained the 300K (from my example) then it will be isothermal.
Specifically what process in this thought experiment atmosphere do you believe will change that?”
In other words, you didn’t read my replies to Konrad which I linked to.
gbaikie says “Or are saying there will be an adiabatic lapse rate?”
Why do you think there needs to be an adiabatic lapse rate (at equilibrium in the Willis’ thought experiment atmosphere)? It is possible to have a gas at say 300K, at all ranges of pressure. At equilibrium the gas wont be moving so there are no parcels rising, dropping pressure and cooling.
The key is that once energy gets into the thought experiment atmosphere, it stays there. In real life, of course, the atmosphere is cooling and this makes all the difference.
Trick says:
“I am hard-pressed to think of any instrument where “THEY DO MEASURE IN THE MEANING DETECT (insert physical item)”. A bathroom scale is calibrated to measure weight on earth. Apparently Kristian doesn’t believe any instrumentation. Yet a car engine starts, warms up, drives. They blast off rockets with payloads past Pluto close enough. My computer works, doesn’t fry the processor. My bathroom scale is close enough. Where is the secret Kristian instrumentation w/o misconception they used to design & then build such energy flow stuff that measures w/o any calibration?”
So when you simply calculate something based on an assumed concept, then this something is all of a sudden physically detected in your world. It’s real. It’s as real as the phenomena actually being detected and which is the basis for the calculation. Good luck with that.
You truly are a strange one.
Please read again how pyrgeometers DETECT the heat (the actual, physical flow of energy) and CALCULATE the ASSUMED upward and downward components of this actual upward energy flow – I provided you with a couple of links.
That you seem unable to see the difference speaks volumes.
Kristian wrote “In other words, you didn’t read my replies to Konrad which I linked to.”
I did actually. Your points are all valid until equilibrium is reached OR the atmosphere is cooling. But this thought experiment is where equilibrium has been reached (and the atmosphere is isothermal) and does not cool.
Brian H says:
December 25, 2013 at 9:20 pm
Yeah, I thought of that today. You’re right, I was moving too fast. The radiation varies by a factor of 256, no 16, as I’d said.
w.
How can energy at a solid surface be used for two purposes simultaneously ?
Energy radiated is not available for conduction and energy used for conduction is not available for radiation.
To assert otherwise as Willis and AGW proponents do is to breach the law of conservation of energy, surely?
I think the only solution is to separate the effective radiating height from the height at which the temperature is such that S-B is satisfied.
As far as I can tell everyone has been treating them as one and the same.
Thus for a completely radiatively inert atmosphere the effective radiating height must always be the surface but nonetheless because heat is still being conducted upward and there is still a decline in temperature with height, up to and beyond the height at which S-B is satisfied, that S-B height is then off the ground.
What the addition of radiative gases then achieves must be to also lift the effective radiating level off he ground to bring the effective radiating level closer in height to the height at which S-B is satisfied.
If ALL energy transfers were radiative with no conduction at all then both the effective radiating height and the S-B height would be together at the surface.There could be no atmosphere with any mass capable of absorbing via conduction.
The more conduction there is the wider the two heights separate as the S-B level rises independently of the effective radiating level.
The more radiative gases there are the more the two heights move back together as the effective radiation level also lifts off the surface towards the higher S-B level.
The outcome of the shifting balance between the two heights is shifting air circulation patterns (via density variations induced by uneven conduction) and thus climate changes but any climate changes arising from radiation variations are infinitesimal because the main driver of the so called greenhouse effect is atmospheric mass absorbing energy by conduction and the radiative component is trivial in comparison.
The logical summation must be that at any height below the effective radiating level the radiation emanating from the surface ‘leaks’ away into conduction to the mass of the atmosphere (from the surface) such that by the time one reaches the S-B level the maximum conducting capability of atmospheric mass has been achieved leaving the remaining outward radiative flux equal to the incoming radiative flux.
Mods, was it my use of capitals in my 2.16am post that put it into the moderation queue?
” Trick says:
December 25, 2013 at 9:28 pm
Kristian 8:47pm: “The only thing that matters in addition to the solar input, is the atmospheric weight on the surface. That is what in the end will determine the surface temperature.”
Here, knock yourself out Kristian, with g=9.8m/sec/sec:
Earth Solar irradiance 1367.6 W/m^2 current epoch
Atm. mass = 5.15×10^18 kg
Determine the surface temperature.”
With Earth oceans the average depth is 4000 meter. If instead Earth was exactly the same
except the oceans 2000 meters lower [about 1/2 ocean were removed]. This would effectively rise the elevation of land by 2000 meters. And therefore land temperature would cool on average by about 12 C or more. Whereas Ocean temperatures would change little. The only significant effect upon oceans and how they affect global temperature is there slightly less Ocean surface area and land area would increase. This higher percentage land vs Ocean area would decrease average temperature by 1 to 5 C. But without the decrease ratio of ocean vs land, the 12 C cooling of land would not have much affect upon average global temperature as land would a small percent of total global surface area. Or including the lower ratio ocean to land and including the lowering of land area temperature by about 12 C, global average would be lower by about 5 C. Increasing the ocean deep by doubling current depth, increase average temperature by more than 5 C as one would have less land area. And also what land remained would be warmer [not that this matters] and all polar ice caps would cease to exist. And polar caps could not form.
So there variation unrelated to amount atmosphere. Or average global temperature would 10 degrees variation depended amount water.
Or variations could be highest land surface skin temperature of land varying by within 75 to 85 C.
Varying levels or amount of ocean and effect on land elevation would affect skin max skin temperature by a few degrees. Types gases in atmosphere might also effect max land surface temperature by couple of degree. But such changes would not affect global temperature or
have much effect on various local conditions. The type of land also could affect highest skin temperature. But all these factors would probably fall within the range of max land surface temperature being within 75 to 85 C. Though quite exotic changes in material of the land could get highest skin temperature outside these ranges, particularly in regards possible lower to cooler part of range.
In terms of variation in ocean temperature. I don’t know of anything which would make ocean temperatures much warmer. Solar ponds have been reported to get a temperature above 90 C.
And I don’t how you improve that. If made ocean less crystal clear that lower their ability to absorb sunlight- and majority of our oceans are crystal clear. I think they work better than solar ponds. One could easily increase their surface temperature. Cover them with tar, but that lower global temperature in long term, but on temporary basis [say less than 10 years] one make the ocean skin temperature equal land surface temperature. And therefore short term
drive global air temperature up tens of C. But without such temporary fixes one is confined to surface ocean reaching a maximum temperature of about 40 C- which quite a bit warmer then
our current oceans. Therefore in terms of average air temperature one could get a range of 10 to 30 C assuming one has ocean similar to Earth. Without ocean, it depends of material of the surface in terms of how cold it could get- easily below 0 C. Though can’t get as cold as Moon unless you have a vacuum.
Which reminds, one might colder or warmer 1/2 or twice a much atmosphere. But it seems twice or half as much gravity would be bigger effect.
But generally including not have oceans, it’s has range of 0 C to 30 C in terms of average global temperature. So that includes adding any mix of gases you like, including massive amounts of Methane.
Or at Earth distance, Venus given time [millions of years] and since Venus doesn’t have much water, Venus could becomes cooler than Earth. It’s CO2 cools and become liquid and frozen CO2.
If replace the amount of CO2 of Venus with say nitrogen, it remains a gas, it would still would quite cold.
Maybe something like lots of nitrogen and lots of sulfuric clouds like Venus could make planet at earth distance somewhat warm. Or darker clouds than sulfuric clouds- could help warm it up. But such things don’t help much unless one has massive atmosphere.
Konrad says:
December 25, 2013 at 5:27 pm
Mmmm … not exactly. I said that it would end deep tropical convection. However, I also said that the atmosphere would not go stagnant, but would continue to circulate thermally from the equator to the poles.
Now, without the radiative gases as you specified, there will be no latent heat transport from the surface to the atmosphere. And the large-scale transport of energy from the equator to the tropics will slow greatly without the deep convection to drive it.
But what that means is that the equator will warm significantly, since it can neither evaporate away heat nor is it being removed by vertical transport of thunderstorms.
And that will increase the heat difference from the equator to the poles. Remember that we get about seven times the insolation at the equator as at the poles.
And when the equator warms up, that, in turn, will increase the thermal circulation from the equator to the poles.
Finally, I assume you are meaning a rotating, earthlike planet. The lack of GHGs plus the lack of evaporation will make the dayside hotter, and the nightside cooler, than it would be otherwise. This, of course, would increase the terminator wind.
So while deep tropical overturning will stop, no, I don’t think that the atmosphere will trend isothermal. I think it will still be heated at the equator, expand, travel to the poles, and along the way it will be cooled by the surface, condense, and make its way back to the equator. And I think the terminator winds will blow from the cold to the hot. Your basic thermosyphon will still be operating in both cases, ascending on the hot side and descending on the cold side … and the hot side will be hotter and the cold side will be colder than with the GHGs, so those effects will be stronger than they are today.
All the best,
w.
-TimTheToolMan says:
December 26, 2013 at 1:50 am
gbaikie says “Or are saying there will be an adiabatic lapse rate?”
Why do you think there needs to be an adiabatic lapse rate (at equilibrium in the Willis’ thought experiment atmosphere)? It is possible to have a gas at say 300K, at all ranges of pressure. At equilibrium the gas wont be moving so there are no parcels rising, dropping pressure and cooling.
The key is that once energy gets into the thought experiment atmosphere, it stays there. In real life, of course, the atmosphere is cooling and this makes all the difference.-
Well I think there would a adiabatic lapse rate on Saturn’s moon, Titan.
I don’t actually know there is. Maybe I know at some kind of subconscious level
as read a lot this kind of stuff. But I can’t remember at the moment exactly if there
is or not. It makes want to look it up, but I ‘ll wait until after I post
I would expect the adiabatic lapse rate to on low end due to Titan lower gravity.
And of course it’s frigging far away it receives little sunlight. Etc.
I now how I would stop or inhibit a adiabatic lapse rate- put it in pressurized
container, but generally planet’s atmospheres are not in containers.
Or if a planet has very little atmosphere like Mars, then I would expect much
of adiabatic lapse rates. I happen to know there steep difference of temperature
difference in first few meters of elevation on Mars. I remember that.
Of course Venus has adiabatic lapse rate. If in Venus atmosphere and
at Earth atmosphere pressure, it’s about + 30 C, but go up to Mt Everest
elevation pressure it’s 10 C or cooler. And Venus has greater adiabatic
lapse rate than Earth, because Earth has a lot water in it’s air, or wet adiabatic
lapse rate is lower on earth. And Venus is close to earth’s dry adiabatic lapse rate.
And w know Argon is ideal gas unlike water vapor.
Gee, I think saw this before:
http://pds-atmospheres.nmsu.edu/education_and_outreach/encyclopedia/adiabatic_lapse_rate.htm
It seems familiar. Anyhow Titan has fairly low adiabatic lapse rate of:
1.301 K/Km. So apparently it cools 1.301 C per 1000 meter of elevation.
Which low, but it’s atmosphere is Methane and it’s not an ideal gas at
those temperatures. Plus the low gravity I expect, affects it.
Mars has more than I thought:
Mars: 4.500 K/Km
It’s lower gravity and CO2 condense on Mars [see Mars frost],
So CO2 not ideal gas in Mars all of it’s temperature ranges.
Though don’t have much confidence in these numbers as it says
Earth has: 9.760 K/Km
And generally in troposphere it’s 6.5 K/Km, so not sure
how they determining their numbers.
And that’s what reminded I had seen before:)
gbaikie writes “Well I think there would a adiabatic lapse rate on Saturn’s moon, Titan.” etc
I expect all real planets with real atmospheres have adiabatic lapse rates because they all have GHGs which absorb energy radiated by the planet and radiate it away from higher up. But this is a thought experiment designed to show that its not the pressure alone that sets the surface temperature.
Of course once you add GHGs everything changes and IMO the pressure does impact on the surface temperature because the heat capacity is greater with increasing pressure and that’s a major factor on the other side of the planet away from the sun for a rotating planet.