Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
In the leaked version of the upcoming United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (UN IPCC) Fifth Assessment Report (AR5) Chapter 1, we find the following claims regarding volcanoes.
The forcing from stratospheric volcanic aerosols can have a large impact on the climate for some years after volcanic eruptions. Several small eruptions have caused an RF for the years 2008−2011 of −0.10 [–0.13 to –0.07] W m–2, approximately double the 1999−2002 volcanic aerosol RF.
and
The observed reduction in warming trend over the period 1998–2012 as compared to the period 1951–2012, is due in roughly equal measure to a cooling contribution from internal variability and a reduced 2 trend in radiative forcing (medium confidence). The reduced trend in radiative forcing is primarily due 3 to volcanic eruptions and the downward phase of the current solar cycle.
Now, before I discuss these claims about volcanoes, let me remind folks that regarding the climate, I’m neither a skeptic nor am I a warmist.
I am a climate heretic. I say that the current climate paradigm, that forcing determines temperature, is incorrect. I hold that changes in forcing only marginally and briefly affect the temperature. Instead, I say that a host of emergent thermostatic phenomena act
quickly to cool the planet when it is too warm, and to warm it when it is too cool.
One of the corollaries of this position is that the effects of volcanic eruptions on global climate will be very, very small. Although I’ve demonstrated this before, Anthony recently pointed me to an updated volcanic forcing database, by Sato et al. Figure 1 shows the amount of forcing from the historical volcanoes.
Figure 1. Monthly changes in radiative forcing (downwelling radiation) resulting from historical volcanic eruptions. The two large recent spikes are from El Chichon (1983) and Pinatubo (1992) eruptions. You can see the average forcing of -0.1 W/m2 from 2008-2011 mentioned by the IPCC above. These are the equilibrium forcings Fe, and not the instantaneous forcing Fi.
Note that the forcings are negative, because the eruptions inject reflective aerosols into the stratosphere. These aerosols reflect the sunlight, and the forcing is reduced. So the question is … do these fairly large known volcanic forcings actually have any effect on the global surface air temperature, and if so how much?
To answer the question, we can use linear regression to calculate the actual effect of the changes in forcing on the temperature. Figure 2 shows the HadCRUT4 monthly global surface average air temperature.
Figure 2. Monthly surface air temperatures anomalies, from the HadCRUT4 dataset. The purple line shows a centered Gaussian average with a full width at half maximum (FWHM) of 8 years.
One problem with doing this particular linear regression is that the volcanic forcing is approximately trendless, while the temperature has risen overall. We are interested in the short-term (within four years or so) changes in temperature due to the volcanoes. So what we can do to get rid of the long-term trend is to only consider the temperature variations around the average for that historical time. To do that, we subtract the Gaussian average from the actual data, leaving what are called the “residuals”:
Figure 3. Residual anomalies, after subtracting out the centered 8-year FWHM gaussian average.
As you can see, these residuals still contain all of the short-term variations, including whatever the volcanoes might or might not have done to the temperature. And as you can also see, there is little sign of the claimed cooling from the eruptions. There is certainly no obvious sign of even the largest eruptions. To verify that, here is the same temperature data overlaid on the volcanic forcing. Note the different scales on the two sides.
Figure 4. Volcanic forcing (red), with the HadCRUT4 temperature residual overlaid.
While some volcanoes line up with temperature changes, some show increases after the eruptions. In addition, the largest eruptions don’t seem correlated with proportionately large drops in temperatures.
So now we can start looking at how much the volcanic forcing is actually affecting the temperature. The raw linear regression yields the following results.
R^2 = 0.01 (a measure from zero to one of how much effect the volcanoes have on temperature) "p" value of R^2 = 0.03 (a measure from zero to one how likely it is that the results occurred by chance) (adjusted for autocorrelation). Trend = 0.04°C per W/m2, OR 0.13°C per doubling of CO2 (how much the temperature varies with the volcanic forcing) "p" value of the TREND = 0.02 (a measure from zero to one how likely it is that the results occurred by chance) (adjusted for autocorrelation).
So … what does that mean? Well, it’s a most interesting and unusual result. It strongly confirms a very tiny effect. I don’t encounter that very often in climate science. It simultaneously says that yes, volcanoes do affect the temperature … and yet, the effect is vanishingly small—only about a tenth of a degree per doubling of CO2.
Can we improve on that result? Yes, although not a whole lot. As our estimate improves, we’d expect a better R^2 and a larger trend. To do this, we note that we wouldn’t expect to find an instantaneous effect from the eruptions. It takes time for the land and ocean to heat and cool. So we’d expect a lagged effect. To investigate that, we can calculate the R^2 for a variety of time lags. I usually include negative lags as well to make sure I’m looking at a real phenomenon. Here’s the result:
Figure 5. Analysis of the effects of lagging the results of the volcanic forcing.
That’s a lovely result, sharply peaked. It shows that as expected, after a volcano, it takes about seven-eight months for the maximum effects to be felt.
Including the lag, of course, gives us new results for the linear regress, viz:
R^2 = 0.03 [previously 0.01] "p" value of R^2 = 0.02 (adjusted for autocorrelation) [previously 0.03] Trend = 0.05°C per W/m2, OR 0.18 ± 0.02°C per doubling of CO2 [previously 0.13°C/doubling] "p" value of the Trend = 0.001 (adjusted for autocorrelation). [previously 0.02]
As expected, both the R^2 and the trend have increased. In addition the p-values have improved, particularly for the trend. At the end of the day, what we have is a calculated climate sensitivity (change in temperature with forcing) which is only about two-tenths of a degree per doubling of CO2.
Here are the conclusions that I can draw from this analysis.
1) The effect of volcanic eruptions is far smaller than generally assumed. Even the largest volcanoes make only a small difference in the temperature. This agrees with my eight previous analyses (see list in the Notes). For those who have questions about this current analysis, let me suggest that you read through all of my previous analyses, as this is far from my only evidence that volcanoes have very little effect on temperature.
2) As Figure 5 shows, the delay in the effects of the temperature is on the order of seven or eight months from the eruption. This is verified by a complete lagged analysis (see the Notes below). That analysis also gives the same value for the climate sensitivity, about two tenths of a degree per doubling.
3) However, this is not the whole story. The reason that the temperature change after an eruption is so small is that the effect is quickly neutralized by the homeostatic nature of the climate.
Finally, to return to the question of the IPCC Fifth Assessment Report, it says:
There is very high confidence that models reproduce the more rapid warming in the second half of the 20th century, and the cooling immediately following large volcanic eruptions.
Since there is almost no cooling that follows large volcanic eruptions … whatever the models are doing, they’re doing it wrong. You can clearly see the volcanic eruptions in the model results … but you can’t see them at all in the actual data.
The amazing thing to me is that this urban legend about volcanoes having some big effect on the global average temperature is so hard to kill. I’ve analyzed it from a host of directions, and I can’t find any substance there at all … but it is widely believed.
I ascribe this to an oddity of the climate control system … it’s invisible. For example, I’ve shown that the time of onset of tropical clouds has a huge effect on incoming solar radiation, with a change of about ten minutes in onset time being enough to counteract a doubling of CO2. But no one would ever notice such a small change.
So we can see the cooling effect of the volcanoes where it is occurring … but what we can’t see is the response of the rest of the climate system to that cooling. And so, the myth of the volcanic fingerprints stays alive, despite lots of evidence that while they have large local effects, their global effect is trivially small.
Best to all,
w.
PS—The IPCC claims that the explanation for the “pause” in warming is half due to “natural variations”, a quarter is solar, and a quarter is from volcanoes. Here’s the truly bizarre part. In the last couple decades, using round numbers, the IPCC predicted about 0.4°C of warming … which hasn’t happened. So if a quarter of that (0.1°C) is volcanoes, and the recent volcanic forcing is (by their own numbers) about 0.1 W/m2, they’re saying that the climate sensitivity is 3.7° per doubling of CO2.
Of course, if that were the case we’d have seen a drop of about 3°C from Pinatubo … and I fear that I don’t see that in the records.
They just throw out these claims … but they don’t run the numbers, and they don’t think them through to the end.
Notes and Data
For the value of the forcing, I have not used the instantaneous value of the volcanic forcing, which is called “Fi“. Instead, I’ve used the effective forcing “Fe“, which is the value of the forcing after the system has completely adjusted to the changes. As you might expect, Fi is larger than Fe. See the spreadsheet containing the data for the details.
As a result, what I have calculated here is NOT the transient climate response (TCR). It is the equilibrium climate sensitivity (ECS).
For confirmation, the same result is obtained by first using the instantaneous forcing Fi to calculate the TCR, and then using the TCR to calculate the ECS.
Further confirmation comes from doing a full interative lagged analysis (not shown), using the formula for a lagged linear relationship, viz:
T2 = T1 + lambda (F2 – F1) (1 – exp(-1/tau)) + exp(-1/tau) (T1 – T0)
where T is temperature, F is forcing, lambda is the proportionality coefficient, and tau is the time constant.
That analysis gives the same result for the trend, 0.18°C/doubling of CO2. The time constant tau was also quite similar, with the best fit at 6.4 months lag between forcing and response.
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In this case it’s the Sato paper, which provides a dataset of optical thicknesses “tau”, and says:
The relation between the optical thickness and the forcings are roughly (See “Efficacy …” below):
instantaneous forcing Fi (W/m2) = -27 τ
adjusted forcing Fa (W/m2) = -25 τ
SST-fixed forcing Fs (W/m2) = -26 τ
effective forcing Fe (W/m2) = -23 τ
And “Efficacy” refers to
Hansen, J., M. Sato, R. Ruedy, L. Nazarenko, A. Lacis, G.A. Schmidt, G. Russell, et al. 2005. Efficacy of climate forcings. J. Geophys. Res., 110, D18104, doi:10.1029/2005/JD005776.
Forcing Data
For details on the volcanic forcings used, see the Sato paper, which provides a dataset of optical thicknesses “tau”, and says:
The relation between the optical thickness and the forcings are roughly (See “Efficacy …” below):
instantaneous forcing Fi (W/m2) = -27 τ
adjusted forcing Fa (W/m2) = -25 τ
SST-fixed forcing Fs (W/m2) = -26 τ
effective forcing Fe (W/m2) = -23 τ
And “Efficacy” refers to
Hansen, J., M. Sato, R. Ruedy, L. Nazarenko, A. Lacis, G.A. Schmidt, G. Russell, et al. 2005. Efficacy of climate forcings. J. Geophys. Res., 110, D18104, doi:10.1029/2005/JD005776.
(Again, remember I’m using their methods, but I’m not claiming that their methods are correct.)
Future Analyses
My next scheme is that I want to gin up some kind of prototype governing system that mimics what it seems the climate system is doing. The issue is that to keep a lagged system on course, you need to have “overshoot”. This means that when the temperature goes below average, it then goes above average, and then finally returns to the prior value. Will I ever do the analysis? Depends on whether something shinier shows up before I get to it … I would love to have about a dozen bright enthusiastic graduate students to hand out this kind of analysis to.
I also want to repeat my analysis using “stacking” of the volcanoes, but using this new data, along with some mathematical method to choose the starting points for the stacking … which turns out to be a bit more difficult than I expected.
Previous posts on the effects of the volcano.
Prediction is hard, especially of the future.
Pinatubo and the Albedo Thermostat
Dronning Maud Meets the Little Ice Age
New Data, Old Claims about Volcanoes
Volcanoes: Active, Inactive and Interactive
Stacked Volcanoes Falsify Models

Jim S says: Don’t volcanoes also emit large quantities of CO2 into the atmosphere? Is this taken into account?
Greg Goodman says: Largeness is relative. In view of what we chuck out and the natural annual carbon cycle volcanoes are a fart in the wind.
The annual human contribution to the atmosphere is 9 gigatons of CO2 measured as Carbon. There is only one place where the entire output of a volcanic seep is (or was) sequestered–Lake Nyos. Estimates of that source alone range as high as 700 million SCF of CO2 annually. Using a more conservative yearly figure of 187 million SCF and multiplying by three million subsea volcanoes, I get 5.61 X 10¹⁴ SCF/year, globally. Some fart, Greg!
Converting to metric tons of carbon per year, that’s about 8 gigatons versus the human contribution of 9 gigatons. No, we don’t know the sizes of those subsea volcanoes nor their emission rates, nor the emission of land-based volcanoes. But these figures hint that the volcanic CO2 release rate may have been grossly understated. [Note that I don’t say “underestimated,” because AGW-activist scientists don’t always state what they estimate.]
Willis Eschenbach says:
September 22, 2013 at 1:40 pm
I don’t accept every aspect of the Jelbring hypothesis, merely the part that emphasises the function of winds in redistributing energy. I don’t see the mass/gravity issue as his since to my recollection it was once the consensus view.
I am aware of your antipathy to the gravity/atmospheric mass issue but respectfully consider you and all those who support you to be wrong.
It is interesting to note that your own hypothesis proposes some baseline sea surface temperature that cannot be exceeded even if the atmospheric composition changes.
You have provided no suggestion as to how that might be achieved.
The only way I can see it being achieved is via atmospheric pressure on the water surface and that involves mass not composition.
Your own thermostat hypothesis needs the gravity/mass relationship to work in the first place unless you can come up with a more likely explanation.
Gerald Wilhite says: “Apparently there are hundreds or even thousands of unknown submarine volcanoes.”
In that regard, see: http://iceagenow.com/Three_Million_Underwater_Volcanoes.htm
More like millions, Gerald.
Gerald Wilhite:
Your post at September 22, 2013 at 1:46 pm begins saying
I am confused because neither Wiilis nor I said what you quote and – as far as I can see – neither of us replied to it.
However, I did respond to theyouk:suggesting volcanic heat could have an effect in his post at September 22, 2013 at 10:16 am.
My reply is at September 22, 2013 at 10:40 am
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/09/22/the-eruption-over-the-ipcc-ar5/#comment-1423700
and reports the Ramanathan&Collins effect.
Your post then goes on to discuss CO2 emissions from submarine volcanos. This could not affect atmospheric CO2 because of the carbonate buffer: almost all the CO2 in the carbon cycle is already in the oceans. However, sulphate emissions from submarine volcanos could significantly alter atmospheric CO2 concentration by altering ocean surface layer pH. I have explained this in WUWT threads where it is pertinent. It is NOT pertinent here and would confuse this thread which concerns atmospheric (n.b. NOT oceanic) SOx.
Richard
John Daly used 6 different methods to calculate 2XCO2 sensitivity and all of them were in line with your result, around 0.2C.
http://www.john-daly.com/miniwarm.htm
Looking at the 7 major eruptions from Krakatoa onwards, 5 of them occurred in spring to mid-summer.
Mount Pinatubo Luzon Volcanic Arc Jun 15, 1991
5 Mount St. Helens Cascade Volcanic Arc May 18, 1980
6 Novarupta Aleutian Range Jun 6, 1912
6 Santa María Central America Volcanic Arc Oct 24, 1902
5 Mount Tarawera Taupo Volcanic Zone Jun 10, 1886
6 Krakatoa Sunda Arc Aug 26–27, 1883
5 Cosigüina Central America Volcanic Arc January 20, 1835
Plus El Chichon, March/April 1982
If I am correct in my thinking that monsoon intensity (especially NH monsoon) is a major climate feedback (negative) on an annual scale then the lag you show in Fig 5 would be significantly affected by the time of year the eruptions occurred.
Stephen Wilde:
In your post addressed to Willis at September 22, 2013 at 1:59 pm you say
He does not need to because that has been known since 1991. Please read my post in this thread at September 22, 2013 at 10:40 am
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/09/22/the-eruption-over-the-ipcc-ar5/#comment-1423700
which reports the Ramanathan&Collins effect.
Richard
Forrest M. Mims III says:
September 22, 2013 at 1:33 pm
Forrest, it’s always great to hear from you. For those unfamiliar with the name, Forrest used to write the “Amateur Scientist” column in Scientific American … back when both were actually about science.
Forrest, I assume that the measurements that you refer to were taken by you at a single point … and the effect of Pinatubo or other “Plinian” eruptions in local areas is well known. And indeed the stratospheric effects are global … but you’re not seeing the other side of the coin.
When a volcano cuts down the incoming solar in the tropics, they cool. When they are cool (as I have shown) the clouds form later, and as a result, you get less sunlight, but for a longer time. So the effect you measured is indeed real … it just doesn’t do what people think it does.
However, it does not become “lost in long time series” as you say … if it were there on a global basis we’d see it regardless of the length of the time series. It is counteracted by emergent phenomena.
When the globe cools, the tropical clouds form a few minutes later, the thunderstorms form a few minutes later … and that brings the global temperature back up. This is because the thermostatic mechanisms which maintain the temperature, such as the time of tropical cloud formation, are TEMPERATURE based, and not FORCING based. The clouds don’t know or care WHY it is cooler—if it’s cooler they form later or don’t form at all, and the full heat of the sun quickly warms the planet back up.
So when a volcanic eruption cools the world, or when a change in solar strength warms the world, it is offset by changes in, inter alia, cumulus formation time and amount, thunderstorm formation time and amount, and El Nino/La Nina formation time and amount. A trivially small, almost unmeasurable change in these homeostatic mechanisms is more than enough to offset the effects of the volcanoes.
Best regards, and my thanks for your work with Sci Am … which was back before they morphed into the Sc Am.
The “Amateur Scientist” column that your predecessor Martin Gardner had and that you continued was my inspiration as a child on the ranch and then as younger man. It was one reason I’m an amateur scientist today. I waited for it every month. Can’t tell you how many things I’ve built from that column, including a Wilson cloud chamber (which kinda worked), water-based logical switches and flip-flops using eyedroppers, and a Hilsch Vortex Tube. You have my eternal gratitude.
w.
milodonharlani says:
September 22, 2013 at 1:08 pm
Global wheat production fell dramatically in 1992 & didn’t recover to 1991 levels until 1998, prices took a big jump that year (as I well recall) & at least in the US, yield fell (from 39.5 bu/A to 34.3):
====================================================================
You’re applying a micro to a macro. Yes, for a very short time global wheat production declined, but at the same time corn and rice increased. There are many, many reasons for price fluctuation other than the ability to produce. If you wish, you can go here to see the near constant increase of crop global production. https://suyts.wordpress.com/2013/09/08/oh-puh-leeese-do-you-see-a-twelve-year-cycle-here-maybe-but-it-doesnt-make-any-difference/
About six years ago my colleagues and I published a series of papers on Pinatubo. The first paper provoked two comment papers by prominent climate scientists disagreeing with our results. We published replies to both showing that their analysis was wrong. All five of these papers were published in Geophysical Research Letters (GRL).
Douglass, Knox, Pearson and Clark (DKPC) published a sixth summary paper “Thermocline flux exchange during the Pinatubo event” also in GRL.
(http://www.pas.rochester.edu/~douglass/papers/Douglss_Knox_pearson_clark2006GL026355.pdf). We found that the delay was 4.4 months and more importantly that the total heat flux integrates during this event integrates to zero — i.e. The temperature of the Earth after the event returns to what it was before.
——————————————-
ABSTRACT
“We analyze the temperature anomaly of the Pinatubo eruption using an exact mathematical solution of a standard energy balance model that includes coupling between the mixed layer and the thermocline. Our solution yields a short response time t = 4.4 months and a small climate sensitivity l = 0.22 C/(W/m2), implying short-term negative feedback. Also, our analysis determines a value of the effective eddy diffusion constant k = 2 x 10 (-6) m2/s that is much smaller than that assumed in many climate models. We find for this model that the heat flux to the thermocline reverses sign and integrates to zero for any forcing of finite duration. This effect should be observable in any future Pinatubo- type event.”
——————————————
The authors of the last IPCC report knew of our papers and the comment papers by the two prominent climate scientists who disagreed with our results. However, they deliberately failed to reference our replies showing that they were wrong. When that report came out, it was obviously why — our results disagreed with their conclusions.
I suspect that IPCC AR5 will again ignore our results which after six years is still the last word on Pinatubo.
David Douglass
Dept of Physics and Astronmy
University of Rochester
Willis, I am a bit perplexed by the volcanic forcing dataset you graphed. I am not doubting the veracity of the dataset, it being from GISS and all…sorry. No, seriously, it is likely accurate, but why then is the forcing from Novarupta in 1912 so small? I wrote about it and the beheading of Katmai and other “extreme weather” events of 1912 recently so it is fresh in my mind. It was supposedly the “most powerful volcanic eruption of the 20th Century”:
By the time the eruption ended the surrounding land was devastated and about 30 cubic kilometers of ejecta blanketed the entire region. This is more ejecta than all of the other historic Alaska eruptions combined. It was also thirty times more than the 1980 eruption of Mount St. Helens and three times more than the 1991 eruption of Mount Pinatubo, the second largest in the 20th Century.
Then why would it be but a blip in your graph? Novarupta’s volcanic forcing appears to rank 7th in your graph and about half as powerful a forcing as Mount Pelée in 1902. The other spikes all seem to correlate with the other known large eruptions of the last century-and-a-half, but Novarupta seems the anomaly. Any idea why it’s forcing would have been so weak? Different type of eruption perhaps? I know very little about volcanology so I figured I’d ask in case you or anyone else already had a likely explanation before I go digging any further.
Willis,
FYI
http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2013/09/update-on-my-climate-model-spoiler-its-doing-a-lot-better-than-the-pros.html
Welcome back from your travels, Willis, and thanks for a great thought provoking post to start off. The Earth has survived long enough to show that its natural system does not crash into wild fluctuations caused by minor variations of CO2 whatever their cause. Earth has a long term agenda. CO2 should not be on our agenda except to be thankful for its benefits to plants.
Hi Willis, can you explain how your thermostat relates to Svensmark’s theory? I think I’ve got it – Svensmark’s GCR represents an adjustment to the thermostat itself – is that right?
richardscourtney says:
September 22, 2013 at 2:14 pm
I found this in your link:
“the effect they found is that increased heating of tropical ocean increases evapouration to increase cover by cirrus clouds which shield the surface from solar heating”
The cirrus clouds are a secondary effect resulting from the initial increase in evaporation. My New Climate Model does in fact include cloud feedback effects.
By shading the surface the cirrus clouds reduce the amount of extra evaporation required to restore equilibrium.
Therefore that is not an adequate explanation for the process of increased evaporation in the first place, merely an example of the negative system response to whatever caused the initial rise in evaporation.
It is the increased rate of evaporation that is the primary effect arising from the addition of extra energy to the ocean surface. Willis does not explain how that increase in evaporation is always sufficient to put a firm lid on maximum sea surface temperature.
If the cirrus clouds did not form there would still be the same maximum temperature, just faster evaporation which would not decline if no cirrus clouds formed.
There comes a point where ALL the added energy is ejected by increased evaporation over water or increased convection over land.
That point is determined by atmospheric mass via pressure on the surface and not composition though composition does change the circulation required to achieve stabilisation of the system.
This issue is highly relevant to the volcanic aspect too.
Up thread it was pointed out that the effects of eruptions were neutralised eventually though there is some debate about how long it takes.
That neutralisation is achieved by the global air circulation changing to adjust the ToA energy budget and the changes in circulation required are a product of atmospheric mass and surface pressure.
The main point Willis made in his old thread was this:
“Once the system is at equilibrium, therefore, there is no net flow between the surface and the atmosphere. ”
But that begs the question because the system never is at equilibrium and every divergence from equilibrium causes an equal and opposite circulation response in order to adjust ToA energy balance.
There is always a net flow between surface and atmosphere and it is always a negative system response.
That brings us back inevitably to the question as to what sets the baseline temperature at the surface for any given level of ToA insolation.
That is surface pressure.
Even with a non GHG atmosphere the surface must be more than S-B because the mass (and thus pressure) of the non radiative atmosphere determines the amount of non radiative energy transfer between surface and atmosphere.
The rate of non radiative transfer is infinitely variable so that if anything other than mass, gravity or ToA insolation seeks to disturb system equilibrium (as is always happening in reality) then the appropriate negative system response is supplied via circulation changes which give rise to NON-NET energy exchanges between surface and atmosphere until ToA radiative balance is corrected.
It is wrong to simply ignore non radiative energy transfers between surface and atmosphere just because they net out over time.
They are constantly supplying the necessary negative system response by becoming non net as necessary which whichever sign of response is required.
No thermostat hypothesis can work without that mass/gravity relationship.
Jai says
“There is no other scientific reality. You cannot put energy into an object without it warming, you cannot take energy from that object without it cooling.”
Really, did you ever hear of photosynthesis:
“Photosynthesis is a process used by plants and other organisms to convert light energy, normally from the sun, into chemical energy that can be used to fuel the organisms’ activities. “
suyts says:
September 22, 2013 at 2:25 pm
Wheat production, as I noted, didn’t recover for seven years, not a short time.
I wasn’t arguing for a major effect from Pinatubo, but merely pointing out that Willis overstated the case. There was at least one major crop that did show a negative response. Moreover, at the time, the agricultural literature I read attributed at least some of the drop in wheat production & lowering in yield to Pinatubo, based upon what to me seemed valid argument & compelling evidence.
Of course many factors go into total production & yield numbers for each crop. For instance, wheat acreage in the US also fell from 1991 to ’92, for a variety of reasons. Longer term, volcanoes fertilize soils locally & regionally.
I wasn’t arguing for or against the overall importance of Pinatubo in global agriculture. But the fact is that wheat yield & production fell after 1991 & stayed down for most of the rest of the ’90s.
“It is interesting to note that your own hypothesis proposes some baseline sea surface temperature that cannot be exceeded even if the atmospheric composition changes.
You have provided no suggestion as to how that might be achieved.
The only way I can see it being achieved is via atmospheric pressure on the water surface and that involves mass not composition.”
1- phase change of water happens with no change of temperature – much heat is absorbed by the conversion of water from liquid to gas.
2- the density of water gas is less than that of all other gases of an significant quantity in our atmosphere – therefore water gas rises without convection
3- once it’s risen, phase change radiates the heat with no change in temperature and the gas condenses to liquid – changing its volume from a bottleful to a spoonful.
(degrees ain’t watts when you have phase change, willis)
Stephen Wilde:
I am replying to your long post at September 22, 2013 at 3:02 pm.
You say of the Ramanathan&Collins (R&C) effect
That is a change of subject!
You had complained that Willis did not explain the limit of 305K to maximum sea surface temperature. I replied that he does not need to because that has been known since 1991 and I cited the R&C effect. It explains the limit as I had reported earlier in this thread (with quotation and reference) in my post at at September 22, 2013 at 10:40 am
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/09/22/the-eruption-over-the-ipcc-ar5/#comment-1423700
The “the process of increased evaporation” is an increase in sea surface temperature induced by any cause.
You then promote the Jelbring Hypothesis which – unless you can provide a reference – was not around in the 1960s because Jelbring did not provide it until the late 1990s. Discussion of it is not relevant to this thread and I repeat my suggestion that you do a Search for discussions of it.
Richard
Tom: “Is it possible that the “Year Without a Summer” in 1816 was not really caused by the eruption of Mount Tambora in Indonesia after all?”
Possibly. But it was cold from 1809 to 1816.
Consider HADCET June/July/Aug. Yes 1816 was the 3rd coldest JJA ever at 13.4. But the long term mean for JJA HADCET was 15.3
All of the JJA’s were colder than the long term mean from 1809 to 1816. 1812 was almost as cold as 1816.
1808 16.6
1809 14.5
1810 14.8
1811 14.9
1812 13.8
1813 14.4
1814 14.3
1815 14.8
1816 13.4
http://wp.me/a1ASzZ-Iv
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/hadobs/hadcet/ssn_HadCET_mean.txt
milodonharlani says:
September 22, 2013 at 1:08 pm
Global wheat production fell dramatically in 1992 & didn’t recover to 1991 levels until 1998, prices took a big jump that year (as I well recall) & at least in the US, yield fell (from 39.5 bu/A to 34.3):
====================================================================
It may have fallen “dramatically from the abnormally high 1991 production. But it is right on the trendline for the period 1986 – 1999. Graph those figures in Excel and add a linear trendline*, then tell us you can see a “dramatic” drop.
(*A trivial exercise, unless your real name is Phil Jones).
I had a quick look at the data. Maybe i was looking at too many numbers for today but i think i can see the drop and the lag response. GIStemp 3 months avg. plus Sato’s forcing.
DJF MAM JJA SON
1990 34 54 33 34 1990
1991 40 37 44 32 1991
1992 36 31 12 0 1992
1993 29 26 18 10 1993
1994 14 29 27 37 1994
1995 53 37 45 39 1995
1991.458 0.0179 0.0205 0.0153
1991.542 0.0377 0.0402 0.0353
1991.625 0.0710 0.0668 0.0751
1991.708 0.0964 0.0958 0.0970
1991.792 0.1197 0.1187 0.1208
1991.875 0.1380 0.1281 0.1480
1991.958 0.1385 0.1468 0.1301
1992.042 0.1483 0.1627 0.1338
1992.125 0.1494 0.1691 0.1298
1992.208 0.1428 0.1585 0.1270
1992.292 0.1386 0.1456 0.1317
1992.375 0.1379 0.1424 0.1333
1992.458 0.1265 0.1199 0.1332
1992.542 0.1228 0.1155 0.1300
1992.625 0.1141 0.1068 0.1214
1992.708 0.1044 0.1021 0.1068
1992.792 0.0978 0.0975 0.0982
1992.875 0.0918 0.0914 0.0921
1992.958 0.0793 0.0823 0.0763
1992 was a moderate El Nino year. Sorry about the format but it’s all about raw data, isn’t it.
Am i seeing things?
That was unexpected. Before i posted my comment there were at least spaces between the data.
What a mess.
Here 1992 again – 3 months avg.: DJF 0.36 MAM 0.31 JJA 0.12 SON 0.0
Richard said:
“You had complained that Willis did not explain the limit of 305K to maximum sea surface temperature. I replied that he does not need to because that has been known since 1991 and I cited the R&C effect”
I didn’t ‘complain’, I just asked if he had a better idea.
The suggestion from R&C is that the capping of sea surface temperature is achieved by the formation of certain types of cloud and not simply by an acceleration of the rate of evaporation sufficient to cancel out the added energy. Evaporation is a net cooling process so the faster it runs the more it cools a water surface.
Clouds are fickle entities and vary greatly in timing location density and depth. If it were clouds that achieved the capping effect we would see a much wider range of sea surface temperatures with no firm cap because conditions would regularly allow the cap to be exceeded when conditions were unfavourable for the right sort of clouds at the right time and in the right place.
Therefore I do not accept the R&C effect as an adequate explanation for such a firm cap. The observations are clear that 305C is the most we can get whatever the clouds do.
We are left with the rate of evaporation and the energy cost of the latent heat of vaporisation.
That is related to surface pressure.
I well remember being taught in the 60s and having read in books back then that the maximum surface temperature of a planet with an atmosphere is limited by atmospheric mass and gravity at any given level of ToA insolation.
The obvious reason for that is that any atmosphere whether radiative or not will acquire energy from and exchange energy with the surface and the amount exchanged will be related to mass rather than composition.
Furthermore the rate of energy exchange is not net zero at any given moment. It constantly changes as a negative system response to any disruptive forcing element other than more mass, more gravity or more ToA insolation.
You said I said:
“The “the process of increased evaporation” is an increase in sea surface temperature induced by any cause. ”
Where?
Doesn’t sound like me at all.
I might have said somewhere that an increased rate of evaporation arises from the addition of more energy from any cause but was it in this thread?
Mike Smith says:
September 22, 2013 at 11:54 am
If Willis is correct (and this seems very plausible based on his data) does this not mean it likely that man-made aerosols have a lower than generally assumed impact on temperature?
‘Assumed’ is a good word to describe the published aerosol forcings from NASA/GISS, because they don’t have much empirical basis. There are important differences between anthropogenic aerosols and volcanic aerosols, including that the former are overwhelmingly in the lower troposphere and have a short residence time so their effects are primarily local to regional scale, while volcanic aerosols from major eruptions have a global effect and a residence time of months to perhaps several years. I wouldn’t draw any conclusions about anthropogenic aerosols from Willis’ conclusions about volcanic aerosols.
Right off the bat I am wondering where (and exactly who) obtained the radiometers back in the late 1800’s to supply the aerosol data to us today that I.P.C.C. is then using to supply to politicians to make new laws and regulations?
( Willis, gee, I’m a climate heretic too (two years now), glad to have you onboard )
Now I’ll read the rest.