Congenital Cyclomania Redux

Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach

Well, I wasn’t going to mention this paper, but it seems to be getting some play in the blogosphere. Our friend Nicola Scafetta is back again, this time with a paper called “Solar and planetary oscillation control on climate change: hind-cast, forecast and a comparison with the CMIP5 GCMs”. He’s posted it up over at Tallbloke’s Talkshop. Since I’m banned over at Tallbloke’s, I thought I’d discuss it here. The paper itself is here, take your Dramamine before jumping on board. Dr. Scafetta has posted here on WUWT several times before, each time with his latest, greatest, new improved model. Here’s how well Scafetta’s even more latester, greatester new model hindcasts, as well as what it predicts, compared with HadCRUT4:

scafetta harmonic variabilityFigure 1. Figure 16A from Scafetta 2013. This shows his harmonic model alone (black), plus his model added to the average of the CMIP5 models following three different future “Representative Concentration Pathways”, or RCPs. The RCPs give various specified future concentrations of greenhouse gases. HadCRUT4 global surface temperature (GST) is in gray.

So far, in each of his previous three posts on WUWT, Dr. Scafetta has said that the Earth’s surface temperature is ruled by a different combination of cycles depending on the post:

First Post: 20 and 60 year cycles. These were supposed to be related to some astronomical cycles which were never made clear, albeit there was much mumbling about Jupiter and Saturn.

Second Post: 9.1, 10-11, 20 and 60 year cycles. Here are the claims made for these cycles:

9.1 years : this was justified as being sort of near to a calculation of (2X+Y)/4, where X and Y are lunar precession cycles,

“10-11″ years: he never said where he got this one, or why it’s so vague.

20 years: supposedly close to an average of the sun’s barycentric velocity period.

60 years: kinda like three times the synodic period of Jupiter/Saturn. Why three times? Why not?

Third Post9.98, 10.9, and 11.86 year cycles. These are claimed to be

9.98 years: slightly different from a long-term average of the spring tidal period of Jupiter and Saturn.

10.9 years: may be related to a quasi 11-year solar cycle … or not.

11.86 years: Jupiter’s sidereal period.

The latest post, however, is simply unbeatable. It has no less than six different cycles, with periods of 9.1, 10.2, 21, 61, 115, and 983 years. I haven’t dared inquire too closely as to the antecedents of those choices, although I do love the “3” in the 983 year cycle. Plus there’s a mystery ingredient, of course.

Seriously, he’s adding together six different cycles. Órale, that’s a lot! Now, each of those cycles has three different parameters that totally define the cycle. These are the period (wavelength), the amplitude (size), and the phase (starting point in time) of the cycle.

This means that not only is Scafetta exercising free choice in the number of cycles that he includes (in this case six). He also has free choice over the three parameters for each cycle (period, amplitude, and phase). That gives him no less than 18 separate tunable parameters.

Just roll that around in your mouth and taste it, “eighteen tunable parameters”. Is there anything that you couldn’t hindcast given 18 different tunable parameters?

Anyhow, if I were handing out awards, I’d certainly give him the first award for having eighteen arbitrary parameters. But then, I’d have to give him another award for his mystery ingredient.

Because of all things, the mystery ingredient in Scafetta’s equation is the average hindcast (and forecast) modeled temperature of the CMIP5 climate models. Plus the mystery ingredient comes with its own amplitude parameter (0.45), along with a hidden parameter for the zero point of the average model temperatures before being multiplied by the amplitude parameter. So that makes twenty different adjustable parameters.

Now, I don’t even know what to say about this method. I’m dumbfounded. He’s starting with the average of the CMIP5 climate models, adjusted by an amplitude parameter and a zeroing parameter. Then he’s figuring the deviations from that adjusted average model result based on his separate 6-cycle, 18-parameter model. The sum of the two is his prediction. I truly lack words to describe that, it’s such an awesome logical jump I can only shake my head in awe at the daring trapeze leaps of faith …

I suppose at this point I need to quote the story again of Freeman Dyson, Enrico Fermi, “Johnny” Von Neumann, and the elephant. Here is Freeman Dyson, with the tale of tragedy:

By the spring of 1953, after heroic efforts, we had plotted theoretical graphs of meson–proton scattering.We joyfully observed that our calculated numbers agreed pretty well with Fermi’s measured numbers. So I made an appointment to meet with Fermi and show him our results. Proudly, I rode the Greyhound bus from Ithaca to Chicago with a package of our theoretical graphs to show to Fermi.

When I arrived in Fermi’s office, I handed the graphs to Fermi, but he hardly glanced at them. He invited me to sit down, and  asked me in a friendly way about the health of my wife and our newborn baby son, now fifty years old. Then he delivered his verdict in a quiet, even voice.

“There are two ways of doing calculations in theoretical physics”, he said. “One way, and this is the way I prefer, is to have a clear physical picture of the process that you are calculating. The other way is to have a precise and self-consistent mathematical formalism. You have neither.”

I was slightly stunned, but ventured to ask him why he did not consider the pseudoscalar meson theory to be a self-consistent mathematical formalism. He replied, “Quantum electrodynamics is a good theory because the forces are weak, and when the formalism is ambiguous we have a clear physical picture to guide us.With the pseudoscalar meson theory there is no physical picture, and the forces are so strong that nothing converges. To reach your calculated results, you had to introduce arbitrary cut-off procedures that are not based either on solid physics or on solid mathematics.”

In desperation I asked Fermi whether he was not impressed by the agreement between our calculated numbers and his measured numbers. He replied, “How many arbitrary parameters did you use for your calculations?” I thought for a moment about our cut-off procedures and said, “Four.” He said, “I remember my friend Johnny von Neumann used to say, with four parameters I can fit an elephant, and with five I can make him wiggle his trunk.”

With that, the conversation was over. I thanked Fermi for his time and trouble, and sadly took the next bus back to Ithaca to tell the bad news to the students.

Given that lesson from Dyson, and bearing in mind that Scafetta is using a total of 20 arbitrary parameters … are we supposed to be surprised that Nicola can make an elephant wiggle his trunk? Heck, with that many parameters, he should be able to make that sucker tap dance and spit pickle juice …

Now, you can expect that if Nicola Scafetta shows up, he will argue that somehow the 20 different parameters are not arbitrary, oh, no, they are fixed by the celestial processes. They will likely put forward the same kind of half-ast-ronomical explanation  they’ve used before—that this one represents (2X+Y)/4, where X and Y are lunar precession cycles, or that another one’s 60 year cycle is kind of near three times the synodic period of Jupiter and Saturn (59.5766 years) and close is good enough, that kind of thing. Or perhaps they’ll make the argument that Fourier analysis shows peaks that are sort of near to their chosen numbers, and that’s all that’s needed.

The reality is, if you give me a period in years, I can soon come up with several astronomical cycles that can be added, subtracted, and divided to give you something very near the period you’ve given me … which proves nothing.

Scafetta has free choice of how many cycles to include, and free choice as to the length, amplitude, and phase of each those cycles. And even if he can show that the length of one of his cycles is EXACTLY equal to some astronomical constant, not just kind of near it, he still has totally free choice of phase and amplitude for that cycle. So to date, he’s the leading contender for the 2013 Johnny Von Neumann award, which is given for the most tunable parameters in any scientific study.

The other award I’d give this paper would be for Scafetta’s magical Figure 11, which I reproduce below in all its original glory.

kepler trigon II

Figure 2. Scafetta’s Figure 11 (click to enlarge) ORIGINAL CAPTION: (Left) Schematic representation of the rise and fall of several civilizations since Neolithic times that well correlates with the 14C radio- nucleotide records used for estimating solar activity (adapted from Eddy’s figures in Refs. [90, 91]). Correlated solar-climate multisecular and millennial patterns are recently confirmed [43, 44, 47]. (Right) Kepler’s Trigon diagram of the great Jupiter and Saturn conjunctions between 1583 to 1763 [89], highlighting 20 year and 60 year astronomical cycles, and a slow millennial rotation. 

First off, does that graphic, Figure 11 in Scafetta’s opus, make you feel better or worse about Dr. Scafetta’s claims? Does it give you that warm fuzzy feeling about his science? And why are Kepler’s features smooched out sideways and his fingers so long? At least let me give the poor fellow back his original physiognomy.

kepler painting

There, that’s better. Next, you need to consider the stepwise changes he shows in “carbon 14”, and the square-wave nature of the advance and retreat of alpine glaciers at the lower left. That in itself was good, I hadn’t realized that the glaciers advanced and retreated in that regular a fashion, or that carbon 14 was unchanged for years before and after each shift in concentration. And I did appreciate that there were no units for any of the four separate graphs on the page, that counted heavily in his favor. But what I awarded him full style points for was the seamless segue from alpine glaciers to the “winter severity index” in the year 1000 … that was a breathtaking leap.

And as you might expect from a man citing Kepler, Scafetta treats scientific information like fine wine—he doesn’t want anything of recent vintage. Apparently on his planet you have to let science mellow for some decades before you bring it out to breathe … and in that regard, I direct your attention to the citation in the bottom center of his Figure 11, “Source: Geophysical Data, J. Biddy J. B. Eddy (USA) 1978″. (Thanks to Nicola for the correction, the print was too small to read.)

Where he stepped up to the big leagues, though, is in the top line in the chart. Click on the chart to enlarge it if you haven’t done so yet, so you can see all the amazing details. The “Sumeric Maximum”, the collapse of Machu Pichu, the “Greek Minimum”, the end of the Maya civilization, the “Pyramid Maximum” … talk about being “Homeric in scope”, he’s even got the “Homeric Minimum”.

Finally, he highlights the “20 year and 60 year astronomical cycles” in Kepler’s chart at the right. In fact, what he calls the “20 year” cycles shown in Kepler’s dates at the right vary from 10 to 30 years according to Kepler’s own figures shown inside the circle, and what he calls the “60 year astronomical cycles” include cycles from 50 to 70 years …

In any case, I’m posting all of this because I just thought folks might like to know of Nicola Scafetta’s latest stunning success. Using a mere six cycles and only twenty tunable parameters plus the average of a bunch of climate models, he has emulated the historical record with pretty darn good accuracy.

And now that he has explained just exactly how to predict the climate into the future, I guess the only mystery left is what he’ll do for an encore performance. Because this most recent paper of his, this one will be very hard to top.

In all seriousness, however, let me make my position clear.

Are there cycles in the climate? Yes, there are cycles. However, they are not regular, clockwork cycles like those of Jupiter and Saturn. Instead, one cycle will appear, and will be around for a while, and then disappear to be replaced by some longer or shorter cycle. It is maddening, frustrating, but that’s the chaotic nature of the beast. The Pacific Decadal Oscillation doesn’t beat like a clock, nor does the El Nino or the Madden-Julian oscillation or any other climate phenomena.

What is the longest cycle that can be detected in a hundred year dataset? My rule of thumb is that even if I have two full cycles, my results are too uncertain to lean on. I want three cycles so I can at least get a sense about the variation. So for a hundred year dataset, any cycle over fifty years in length is a non-starter, and thirty-three years and shorter is what I will start to trust.

Can you successfully hindcast temperatures using other cycles than the ones Scafetta uses? Certainly. He has demonstrated that himself, as this is the fourth combination of arbitrarily chosen cycles that he has used. Note that in each case he has claimed the model was successful. This by no means exhausts the possible cycle combinations that can successfully emulate the historical temperature.

Does Scafetta’s accomplishment mean anything? Sure. It means that with six cycles and no less than twenty tunable parameters, you can do just about anything. Other than that, no. It is meaningless.

Could he actually test his findings? Sure, and I’ve suggested it to him. What you need to do is run the analysis again, but this time using the data from say 1910 to 1959 only. Derive your 20 fitted variables using this data alone.

Then test your 20 fitted variables against the data from 1960 to 2009, and see how the variables pan out.

Then do it the other way around. Train the model on the later data, and see how well it does on the early data. It’s not hard to do. He knows how to do it. But if he has ever done it, I have not seen anywhere that he has reported the results.

How do I know all this? Folks, I can’t tell you how many late nights I’ve spent trying to fit any number and combination of cycles to the historical climate data. I’ve used Fourier analysis and periodicity analysis and machine-learning algorithms and wavelets and stuff I’ve invented myself. Whenever I’ve thought I have something, as soon as it leaves the training data and starts on the out-of-sample data, it starts to diverge from reality. And of course, the divergence increases over time.

But that’s simply the same truth we all know about computer weather forecasting programs—out-of-sample, they don’t do all that well, and quickly become little better than a coin flip.

Finally, even if the cycles fit the data and we ignore the ridiculous number of arbitrary parameters, where is the physical mechanism connecting some (2*X+T)/4 combination of two astronomical cycles, and the climate? As Enrico Fermi pointed out, you need to have either “a clear physical picture of the process that you are calculating” or a precise and self-consistent mathematical formalism”. 

w.

PS—Please don’t write in to say that although Nicola is wrong, you have the proper combination of cycles, based on your special calculations. Also, please don’t try to explain how a cycle of 21 years is really, really similar to the Jupiter-Saturn synodic cycle of 19+ years. I’m not buying cycles of any kind, motorcycles, epicycles, solar cycles, bicycles, circadian cycles, nothing. Sorry. Save them for some other post, they won’t go bad, but please don’t post them here.

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July 23, 2013 3:46 pm

Mark Bofill says: July 23, 2013 at 2:46 pm
1) The details about the specific physical mechanisms are unknown. The model that I propose is a solar model that is based on the major expected theoretical cycles from tidal gravitational forces and solar speed relative to the solar system. These select the major expected frequencies that are tested to reproduce solar and temperature variations.
So, my model is based on specific major harmonics that are actually observed.
About ” Is the claim that you refuse to share the data, calculations, and code you used true? If so, would you explain why? If not, would you make these available?”
This is a story first invented by Benestad and then strongly publicized by Steven Mosher that continuously repeat it as a broken disk for defamation purpose.
The truth is that my paper contains all details to replicate my calculations and findings. My papers are peer reviewed and therefore they pass all standard tests used in science.
About the data, I am not using personal data, but I am downloading the data from the web, such as the HadCRUT4 records.
About the equations that I use, they are clearly written in my papers. Just read them.
About the codes, they are usually very simple and the most relevant one such at periodogram evaluations are very popular and written in books such a Numerical Recipes by Press et al.
You may even use popular tools of analysis such as the The Singular Spectrum Analysis – MultiTaper Method (SSA-MTM) Toolkit.
Of course to replicate a scientific finding one needs to master the technique of analysis and needs to know how to download the data via internet.
Benestad invented the story that I do not share data, formulas and codes because Benestad and Schmidt, 2009 published a paper criticizing some of my previous papers. Then I demonstrate that their paper is filled of math errors. See the story here
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/08/04/scafetta-benestad-and-schmidt%E2%80%99s-calculations-are-%E2%80%9Crobustly%E2%80%9D-flawed/
So, because Benestad could not reply, he invented the story that they failed the calculation of their paper because “after” its publication I would not have shared data and formula with them.
Which is by the way false because all data and code are public. One just need how to use them.
A detailed rebuttal of Benestad and Schmidt, 2009 is here
Scafetta N., 2013. Discussion on common errors in analyzing sea level accelerations, solar trends and global warming. Pattern Recognition in Physics, 1, 37–57.
http://www.pattern-recogn-phys.net/1/37/2013/prp-1-37-2013.html
where I replicate all their calculations and prove the errors without asking them codes or data.

Mark Bofill
July 23, 2013 4:00 pm

Nicola,
Thanks so much for your response. In this case, I will study your paper in depth with great interest.

July 23, 2013 4:02 pm

If extending your natural variation back to include the MWP and LIA makes them disappear (ie MWP not as warm and LIA nearly 2C colder than today) then you clearly are missing something in your natural variation equation . Rather than calling it hindcasting, what I think you have done is more aptly described as using the time frame 1850-1950 as your calibration period.

July 23, 2013 4:13 pm

Willis Eschenbach says:
July 23, 2013 at 3:33 pm
You are referring to the exact physical mechanism(s), but I am not discussing them in my paper. Your accusation are empty.
The 9.07 year cycle can be constructed from the lunar harmonics, as also you calculate, and it is found in the climate system. Thus, the most likely interpretation of this temperature cycle is that is a lunar induced cycle.
The microscopic mechanisms will be better understood in the future and with them also the exact frequencies will be clarified.
At he moment there is not just one cycle, by many. And interfere among them.
For the purpose of my paper saying that the cycle is 9.07 or 9.03 year (for example) changes little.
Because on 100 years the error would be just a couple of months.
The same is about the 60 and 61 cycles, both may be present. But practically on a 200 year scale the difference would be just within 3 years, not a big deal, for a practical purpose. I need to use only one cycle instead of two because power spectra do not separate them on a 160 year data. So, in the present paper I made a different choice of my previous model, the results are very similar (not identical of course).
Your criticism is invalid in science. Science proceed steps by steps. First there are the empirical finding tested by semi empirical models like mines, after all mechanisms will be clarified one day.
Also for the ocean tides the right harmonics are not understood yet because the true mechanisms are not understood yet, so people use 40 theoretical astronomical harmonics obtained in various ways in regression models to get the correct variability.
You do not understand my method because you do not understand the tidal ocean model. Learn first to predict tides and then come back.

Fanakapan
July 23, 2013 4:30 pm

Obviously Science in the USA is akin to a Contact Sport, and promoting a new and unproven theory leaves one open to being Mugged :O That being the case, it becomes almost miraculous that Mann has survived to Prosper from his nonsense 🙂

kadaka (KD Knoebel)
July 23, 2013 4:45 pm

So three times the synodic cycle of Jupiter or otherwise some combination of Jupiter’s and Saturn’s orbits, gives the approximately 60-year component?
But the Pacific Decadal Oscillation is a well-known approximately 60-year “pseudocycle”, long known to correlate well with Earth’s climate, arising from underlying ocean processes as Bob Tisdale has explained to us.
So why can’t this mysterious approximately 60-yr cycle of Scafetta actually be the well-known PDO?

milodonharlani
July 23, 2013 4:52 pm

Fanakapan says:
July 23, 2013 at 4:30 pm
Mann is backed by the whole Climate-Industrial-Government Complex, which stands to profit financially, professionally or in power from the scam.

July 23, 2013 4:57 pm

“I do love the “3″ in the 983 year cycle.”
953yrs would make sense for synodic periods. Maybe he simply misread it somewhere. There are no major heliocentric planetary cycles anywhere near 983yrs.

William Astley
July 23, 2013 5:08 pm

What we are currently observing has happened before and is cyclical. If we understand the physical reasons for past cyclic events we could based on current observations be able to predict what will happen next.
If I understand the mechanisms solar cycle 24 will provide observational data to resolve the physical reasons why there is correlation between sets of parameters where there should be no physical connection. If there is unequivocal observational evidence – the start of a series of new anomalies that suddenly appear for no reason correlating with the solar cycle 24 change – I would be interesting in collaborating with different people to write a set of papers to explain physically what is happening and what will happen in the future.
Comment:
As I stated based on observational evidence the sun will be spotless by the end of this year. There will be observational evidence that the solar magnetic cycle has been interrupted which is physically not possible with the current solar model. I get that.
It appears, if I understand the physical reasons for the anomalies, that there are fundamental errors in the solar model, related to what creates the solar magnetic field, solar wind, sunspots, and coronal holes. The errors in the solar model explain a set of mature astronomical anomalies that are widely discussed in astronomical journals. Due to a number of practical and sociological reasons scientists do not suggest that there are or even that there could possibly be fundamental errors in the stellar model and cosmological theory. All discussion is within the limits of the paradigm. It is quite astonishing however the amount of mature anomalous astronomical observations (the first step when anomalous observations are found is to try to make them go away by identifying errors in measurement or systematical errors, the first stage can a decade or more to work through) to support the assertion that are fundamental errors in the stellar models and in cosmological theory.
Based on my understanding of the mechanisms sea level should now be significantly dropping due to the solar cycle 24 change.
A significant portion of the sea level rise in the last 20 years was not due to the oceans warming, ice melting, or the draining of aquifers. There is in the paleo record anomalous cyclic changes of ocean level.
As I have noted before there are also anomalous cyclic abrupt changes to the geomagnetic field.
Both the ocean level changes and the geomagnetic field changes correlate with planetary temperature changes. The geomagnetic field changes (geomagnetic field inclination changes 10 to 15 degrees) and geomagnetic field intensity changes of 5 to 10 fold are the principal cause of the major longer period climate change events.The physical cause of both the ocean level changes and the geomagnetic field changes is changes to the solar magnetic cycle.
Sea Level Controversy
ftp://falcon.grdl.noaa.gov/pub/bob/2004nature.pdf
Mass and volume contributions to twentieth-century
global sea level rise
The rate of twentieth-century global sea level rise and its causes are the subjects of intense controversy1–7. Most direct estimates from tide gauges give 1.5–2.0 mm/yr, whereas indirect estimates based on the two processes responsible for global sea level rise, namely mass and volume change, fall far below this range. Estimates of the volume increase due to ocean warming give a rate of about 0.5mmyr21 (ref. 8) and the rate due to mass increase, primarily from the melting of continental ice, is thought to be even smaller. Therefore, either the tide gauge estimates are too high, as has been suggested recently6, or one (or both) of the mass and volume estimates is too low.

July 23, 2013 5:29 pm

Nicola Scafetta says:
July 23, 2013 at 12:16 pm
Nature will eventually confirm or rebut my theory. Up to now Nature seems to follow it quite well.
So you claim. But without quantitative assessment. Now, science happens when scientists can build on the work by others. There are many ‘planetary’ claims out there. A new one is that by Abreu et al. Does your claim agree with theirs?
You are still evading this issue.

F. Ross
July 23, 2013 5:49 pm

“… It has no less than six different cycles, with periods of 9.1, 10.2, 21, 61, 115, and 983 years. …”
Is that enough cycles to enter next year’s Tour de France? Team Scaffeta? !:-)

July 23, 2013 5:53 pm

Dr. Scafetta:
Having had comments of my own–which I am pretty sure were correct–dismissed by Mr. Eschenbach, I am certainly willing to entertain the proposition is that your theory is compelling. But there are many of us out here who are not willing to invest too much time in checking out the theories of those who are unwilling to help us out.
To me, it seems that code taking the Fourier transform of a test period (e.g., 1880-1950), bringing the six highest components (with their respective amplitudes and phases) forward (through, e.g., 2012), and demonstrating that the results are close to the measured values would be easy and helpful. Yes, many of us would have little problem doing this on our own, but, then, we would be open to your contention that somehow we had done it wrong. If you show us the “right” way, we could efficiently determine how compelling we think your theory is.
Yes, we’re lazy; that’s part of the human condition. But If you want your theories to gain wider acceptance, you will be well advised to deal with the human condition.

July 23, 2013 6:29 pm

William Astley says:
July 23, 2013 at 5:08 pm
As I stated based on observational evidence the sun will be spotless by the end of this year. There will be observational evidence that the solar magnetic cycle has been interrupted which is physically not possible with the current solar model.
There is no such evidence, and you can’t really invoke what ‘will be’. Get real.
Nicola Scafetta says:
July 23, 2013 at 12:16 pm
interested readers need to read my paper
I have read all your papers [even peer-reviewed some of the more abortive ones] and they are not convincing. Comparing yourself to Ptolemaeus, Kepler, and Newton does not imbue you with their authority. Considering your choice of language [here and in previous posts and comments], I think Willis does not need to apologize for anything.
Now, science happens when scientists can build on the work by others. There are many ‘planetary’ claims out there. A new one is that by Abreu et al. Does your claim agree with theirs?
You are still evading this issue.

LdB
July 23, 2013 7:08 pm

@Volker Doormann
You say: The problem with this saying is that some correlations do not imply causation, but are recognized as physical laws.
The problem is we recognize all of those laws also as wrong … incase you missed the memo classic physics is blatantly and definably wrong it is just a layman simplification … hard science says that.
Kepler, Newtonian mechanics all wrong we know they are and science says they are openly and loudly.
You say: But the main nonsense is that it is of no worth to stale was in not. Science is to recognize coherence, what ever it is.
Rubbish it does it hasn’t accepted it 100 years but you obviously missed that class?
Science hasn’t accepted correlation as proof in over a 100 years and no the lack of pirates is not causing global warming.
Your answer is completely wrong at science … end of story.

LdB
July 23, 2013 7:21 pm

Volker Doormann answer got me wondering has our teaching and reporting of science got that bad that the fact all these old classic laws are wrong not discussed anymore.
I had to go and look at current entries in Wikipedia and was relieved they at least do cover it under the section “limits to validity” which obviously we need to get promoted higher up the articles given some of the comments on here.

LdB
July 23, 2013 7:27 pm

@Nicola Scafetta
If all these celestial bodies are causing global warming have you considered tracking all the airplanes, satellites and the ISS because the effects from them must be massive … remember square law function for gravity. A 300 or 400 ton plane at a few kilometers off the earth is going to have a massive gravity tide compared to some pathetic planet millions of millions of kilometers away.
You see where all this garbage goes don’t you?

July 23, 2013 7:30 pm

LdB says:
July 23, 2013 at 7:27 pm
remember square law function for gravity. A 300 or 400 ton plane at a few kilometers off the earth is going to have a massive gravity tide
It is worse than that. The amplitude of tides varies with the inverse cube of the distance.

milodonharlani
July 23, 2013 7:36 pm

LdB says:
July 23, 2013 at 7:27 pm
What if it’s not just the direct gravitational effect of the gas giants on earth, but the combined effect of that plus whatever influence the big planets have on the sun, too, which could then also affect earth?
Small changes might have outsized impacts in a finely balanced system. Or maybe not. But let’s please pursue any remotely plausible avenue instead of declaring climate science settled on CO2 & practically nothing else. Saying, as do Al Gore & his minions, “What else could it be?” isn’t IMO science. Science should rather ask, “What could it be?”

July 23, 2013 7:38 pm

milodonharlani says:
July 23, 2013 at 7:36 pm
Saying, as do Al Gore & his minions, “What else could it be?” isn’t IMO science.
“It’s the Sun, stupid”. What else could it be?

LdB
July 23, 2013 7:45 pm

@milodonharlani
Sure and it could also be the science proposed dark matter which is either increased in or decreased in the sun. I mean the universe doesn’t hold together properly without dark matter ask any cosmologist.
See you just answered the question about why science no longer accepts correlation as cause we haven’t done since Einstein introduced General Relativity and showed how dangerous that can because we had taken Newtons law at face value.

July 23, 2013 7:46 pm

Thanks, Willis. A good article, if somewhat overly aggressive at times. Thanks for the subsequent clarifications in your comments.
To me, it comes down to whether Dr. Scafetta’s model works or not.
His “classic” model I think is shown in http://people.duke.edu/~ns2002/#astronomical_model_1 (scafetta-forecast.png).
I do not yet understand his latest paper, “Solar and planetary oscillation control on climate change: hind-cast, forecast and a comparison with the CMIP5 GCMs”, at http://people.duke.edu/~ns2002/pdf/Scafetta_EE_2013.pdf
I do understand you attempt to falsify this work from first principles and he attempts to defend it.
I see his work injured, but still standing. I will be watching.

milodonharlani
July 23, 2013 7:53 pm

LdB says:
July 23, 2013 at 7:45 pm
True. Science is never settled, even gravitational theory, which might have seemed settled from 1687 to 1905. How much less then can the complex phenomena of climate ever be?

milodonharlani
July 23, 2013 8:01 pm

Leif Svalgaard says:
July 23, 2013 at 7:38 pm
Maybe somebody asks that question, but I don’t. I have tried to explore every avenue through which it could be the sun, but when the hole drilled comes up dry, I move on to explore other fields. I greatly appreciate you & your colleagues fact & argument against an important solar influence on climate.
Still, it strikes me as improbable that the Spoerer, Maunder & Dalton Minima were just coincidentally cold periods.

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