Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
Well, I wasn’t going to mention this paper, but it seems to be getting some play in the blogosphere. Our friend Nicola Scafetta is back again, this time with a paper called “Solar and planetary oscillation control on climate change: hind-cast, forecast and a comparison with the CMIP5 GCMs”. He’s posted it up over at Tallbloke’s Talkshop. Since I’m banned over at Tallbloke’s, I thought I’d discuss it here. The paper itself is here, take your Dramamine before jumping on board. Dr. Scafetta has posted here on WUWT several times before, each time with his latest, greatest, new improved model. Here’s how well Scafetta’s even more latester, greatester new model hindcasts, as well as what it predicts, compared with HadCRUT4:
Figure 1. Figure 16A from Scafetta 2013. This shows his harmonic model alone (black), plus his model added to the average of the CMIP5 models following three different future “Representative Concentration Pathways”, or RCPs. The RCPs give various specified future concentrations of greenhouse gases. HadCRUT4 global surface temperature (GST) is in gray.
So far, in each of his previous three posts on WUWT, Dr. Scafetta has said that the Earth’s surface temperature is ruled by a different combination of cycles depending on the post:
First Post: 20 and 60 year cycles. These were supposed to be related to some astronomical cycles which were never made clear, albeit there was much mumbling about Jupiter and Saturn.
Second Post: 9.1, 10-11, 20 and 60 year cycles. Here are the claims made for these cycles:
9.1 years : this was justified as being sort of near to a calculation of (2X+Y)/4, where X and Y are lunar precession cycles,
“10-11″ years: he never said where he got this one, or why it’s so vague.
20 years: supposedly close to an average of the sun’s barycentric velocity period.
60 years: kinda like three times the synodic period of Jupiter/Saturn. Why three times? Why not?
Third Post: 9.98, 10.9, and 11.86 year cycles. These are claimed to be
9.98 years: slightly different from a long-term average of the spring tidal period of Jupiter and Saturn.
10.9 years: may be related to a quasi 11-year solar cycle … or not.
11.86 years: Jupiter’s sidereal period.
The latest post, however, is simply unbeatable. It has no less than six different cycles, with periods of 9.1, 10.2, 21, 61, 115, and 983 years. I haven’t dared inquire too closely as to the antecedents of those choices, although I do love the “3” in the 983 year cycle. Plus there’s a mystery ingredient, of course.
Seriously, he’s adding together six different cycles. Órale, that’s a lot! Now, each of those cycles has three different parameters that totally define the cycle. These are the period (wavelength), the amplitude (size), and the phase (starting point in time) of the cycle.
This means that not only is Scafetta exercising free choice in the number of cycles that he includes (in this case six). He also has free choice over the three parameters for each cycle (period, amplitude, and phase). That gives him no less than 18 separate tunable parameters.
Just roll that around in your mouth and taste it, “eighteen tunable parameters”. Is there anything that you couldn’t hindcast given 18 different tunable parameters?
Anyhow, if I were handing out awards, I’d certainly give him the first award for having eighteen arbitrary parameters. But then, I’d have to give him another award for his mystery ingredient.
Because of all things, the mystery ingredient in Scafetta’s equation is the average hindcast (and forecast) modeled temperature of the CMIP5 climate models. Plus the mystery ingredient comes with its own amplitude parameter (0.45), along with a hidden parameter for the zero point of the average model temperatures before being multiplied by the amplitude parameter. So that makes twenty different adjustable parameters.
Now, I don’t even know what to say about this method. I’m dumbfounded. He’s starting with the average of the CMIP5 climate models, adjusted by an amplitude parameter and a zeroing parameter. Then he’s figuring the deviations from that adjusted average model result based on his separate 6-cycle, 18-parameter model. The sum of the two is his prediction. I truly lack words to describe that, it’s such an awesome logical jump I can only shake my head in awe at the daring trapeze leaps of faith …
I suppose at this point I need to quote the story again of Freeman Dyson, Enrico Fermi, “Johnny” Von Neumann, and the elephant. Here is Freeman Dyson, with the tale of tragedy:
By the spring of 1953, after heroic efforts, we had plotted theoretical graphs of meson–proton scattering.We joyfully observed that our calculated numbers agreed pretty well with Fermi’s measured numbers. So I made an appointment to meet with Fermi and show him our results. Proudly, I rode the Greyhound bus from Ithaca to Chicago with a package of our theoretical graphs to show to Fermi.
When I arrived in Fermi’s office, I handed the graphs to Fermi, but he hardly glanced at them. He invited me to sit down, and asked me in a friendly way about the health of my wife and our newborn baby son, now fifty years old. Then he delivered his verdict in a quiet, even voice.
“There are two ways of doing calculations in theoretical physics”, he said. “One way, and this is the way I prefer, is to have a clear physical picture of the process that you are calculating. The other way is to have a precise and self-consistent mathematical formalism. You have neither.”
I was slightly stunned, but ventured to ask him why he did not consider the pseudoscalar meson theory to be a self-consistent mathematical formalism. He replied, “Quantum electrodynamics is a good theory because the forces are weak, and when the formalism is ambiguous we have a clear physical picture to guide us.With the pseudoscalar meson theory there is no physical picture, and the forces are so strong that nothing converges. To reach your calculated results, you had to introduce arbitrary cut-off procedures that are not based either on solid physics or on solid mathematics.”
In desperation I asked Fermi whether he was not impressed by the agreement between our calculated numbers and his measured numbers. He replied, “How many arbitrary parameters did you use for your calculations?” I thought for a moment about our cut-off procedures and said, “Four.” He said, “I remember my friend Johnny von Neumann used to say, with four parameters I can fit an elephant, and with five I can make him wiggle his trunk.”
With that, the conversation was over. I thanked Fermi for his time and trouble, and sadly took the next bus back to Ithaca to tell the bad news to the students.
Given that lesson from Dyson, and bearing in mind that Scafetta is using a total of 20 arbitrary parameters … are we supposed to be surprised that Nicola can make an elephant wiggle his trunk? Heck, with that many parameters, he should be able to make that sucker tap dance and spit pickle juice …
Now, you can expect that if Nicola Scafetta shows up, he will argue that somehow the 20 different parameters are not arbitrary, oh, no, they are fixed by the celestial processes. They will likely put forward the same kind of half-ast-ronomical explanation they’ve used before—that this one represents (2X+Y)/4, where X and Y are lunar precession cycles, or that another one’s 60 year cycle is kind of near three times the synodic period of Jupiter and Saturn (59.5766 years) and close is good enough, that kind of thing. Or perhaps they’ll make the argument that Fourier analysis shows peaks that are sort of near to their chosen numbers, and that’s all that’s needed.
The reality is, if you give me a period in years, I can soon come up with several astronomical cycles that can be added, subtracted, and divided to give you something very near the period you’ve given me … which proves nothing.
Scafetta has free choice of how many cycles to include, and free choice as to the length, amplitude, and phase of each those cycles. And even if he can show that the length of one of his cycles is EXACTLY equal to some astronomical constant, not just kind of near it, he still has totally free choice of phase and amplitude for that cycle. So to date, he’s the leading contender for the 2013 Johnny Von Neumann award, which is given for the most tunable parameters in any scientific study.
The other award I’d give this paper would be for Scafetta’s magical Figure 11, which I reproduce below in all its original glory.
Figure 2. Scafetta’s Figure 11 (click to enlarge) ORIGINAL CAPTION: (Left) Schematic representation of the rise and fall of several civilizations since Neolithic times that well correlates with the 14C radio- nucleotide records used for estimating solar activity (adapted from Eddy’s figures in Refs. [90, 91]). Correlated solar-climate multisecular and millennial patterns are recently confirmed [43, 44, 47]. (Right) Kepler’s Trigon diagram of the great Jupiter and Saturn conjunctions between 1583 to 1763 [89], highlighting 20 year and 60 year astronomical cycles, and a slow millennial rotation.
First off, does that graphic, Figure 11 in Scafetta’s opus, make you feel better or worse about Dr. Scafetta’s claims? Does it give you that warm fuzzy feeling about his science? And why are Kepler’s features smooched out sideways and his fingers so long? At least let me give the poor fellow back his original physiognomy.
There, that’s better. Next, you need to consider the stepwise changes he shows in “carbon 14”, and the square-wave nature of the advance and retreat of alpine glaciers at the lower left. That in itself was good, I hadn’t realized that the glaciers advanced and retreated in that regular a fashion, or that carbon 14 was unchanged for years before and after each shift in concentration. And I did appreciate that there were no units for any of the four separate graphs on the page, that counted heavily in his favor. But what I awarded him full style points for was the seamless segue from alpine glaciers to the “winter severity index” in the year 1000 … that was a breathtaking leap.
And as you might expect from a man citing Kepler, Scafetta treats scientific information like fine wine—he doesn’t want anything of recent vintage. Apparently on his planet you have to let science mellow for some decades before you bring it out to breathe … and in that regard, I direct your attention to the citation in the bottom center of his Figure 11, “Source: Geophysical Data, J. Biddy J. B. Eddy (USA) 1978″. (Thanks to Nicola for the correction, the print was too small to read.)
Where he stepped up to the big leagues, though, is in the top line in the chart. Click on the chart to enlarge it if you haven’t done so yet, so you can see all the amazing details. The “Sumeric Maximum”, the collapse of Machu Pichu, the “Greek Minimum”, the end of the Maya civilization, the “Pyramid Maximum” … talk about being “Homeric in scope”, he’s even got the “Homeric Minimum”.
Finally, he highlights the “20 year and 60 year astronomical cycles” in Kepler’s chart at the right. In fact, what he calls the “20 year” cycles shown in Kepler’s dates at the right vary from 10 to 30 years according to Kepler’s own figures shown inside the circle, and what he calls the “60 year astronomical cycles” include cycles from 50 to 70 years …
In any case, I’m posting all of this because I just thought folks might like to know of Nicola Scafetta’s latest stunning success. Using a mere six cycles and only twenty tunable parameters plus the average of a bunch of climate models, he has emulated the historical record with pretty darn good accuracy.
…
And now that he has explained just exactly how to predict the climate into the future, I guess the only mystery left is what he’ll do for an encore performance. Because this most recent paper of his, this one will be very hard to top.
In all seriousness, however, let me make my position clear.
Are there cycles in the climate? Yes, there are cycles. However, they are not regular, clockwork cycles like those of Jupiter and Saturn. Instead, one cycle will appear, and will be around for a while, and then disappear to be replaced by some longer or shorter cycle. It is maddening, frustrating, but that’s the chaotic nature of the beast. The Pacific Decadal Oscillation doesn’t beat like a clock, nor does the El Nino or the Madden-Julian oscillation or any other climate phenomena.
What is the longest cycle that can be detected in a hundred year dataset? My rule of thumb is that even if I have two full cycles, my results are too uncertain to lean on. I want three cycles so I can at least get a sense about the variation. So for a hundred year dataset, any cycle over fifty years in length is a non-starter, and thirty-three years and shorter is what I will start to trust.
Can you successfully hindcast temperatures using other cycles than the ones Scafetta uses? Certainly. He has demonstrated that himself, as this is the fourth combination of arbitrarily chosen cycles that he has used. Note that in each case he has claimed the model was successful. This by no means exhausts the possible cycle combinations that can successfully emulate the historical temperature.
Does Scafetta’s accomplishment mean anything? Sure. It means that with six cycles and no less than twenty tunable parameters, you can do just about anything. Other than that, no. It is meaningless.
Could he actually test his findings? Sure, and I’ve suggested it to him. What you need to do is run the analysis again, but this time using the data from say 1910 to 1959 only. Derive your 20 fitted variables using this data alone.
Then test your 20 fitted variables against the data from 1960 to 2009, and see how the variables pan out.
Then do it the other way around. Train the model on the later data, and see how well it does on the early data. It’s not hard to do. He knows how to do it. But if he has ever done it, I have not seen anywhere that he has reported the results.
How do I know all this? Folks, I can’t tell you how many late nights I’ve spent trying to fit any number and combination of cycles to the historical climate data. I’ve used Fourier analysis and periodicity analysis and machine-learning algorithms and wavelets and stuff I’ve invented myself. Whenever I’ve thought I have something, as soon as it leaves the training data and starts on the out-of-sample data, it starts to diverge from reality. And of course, the divergence increases over time.
But that’s simply the same truth we all know about computer weather forecasting programs—out-of-sample, they don’t do all that well, and quickly become little better than a coin flip.
Finally, even if the cycles fit the data and we ignore the ridiculous number of arbitrary parameters, where is the physical mechanism connecting some (2*X+T)/4 combination of two astronomical cycles, and the climate? As Enrico Fermi pointed out, you need to have either “a clear physical picture of the process that you are calculating” or “a precise and self-consistent mathematical formalism”.
w.
PS—Please don’t write in to say that although Nicola is wrong, you have the proper combination of cycles, based on your special calculations. Also, please don’t try to explain how a cycle of 21 years is really, really similar to the Jupiter-Saturn synodic cycle of 19+ years. I’m not buying cycles of any kind, motorcycles, epicycles, solar cycles, bicycles, circadian cycles, nothing. Sorry. Save them for some other post, they won’t go bad, but please don’t post them here.
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vukcevic says:
July 27, 2013 at 6:42 am
Dodgy FFT analysis http://www.leif.org/research/Rubenson-Auroral-Catalog.png
not enough sampling points above 12 years to resolve spectrum properly
Yearly data 1722-1877 enough to show 11-yr peak.
Mine graph is far more accurate
Obviously not.
So let’s look at data file if you got one.<
Data is plotted above spectrum [same data as you show – I think you actually got the data from me].
Check out Silverman's definitve analysis http://www.leif.org/EOS/92RG01571.pdf Figures 5 and 10. Or Feynman's http://www.leif.org/EOS/JA089iA05p03023.pdf
Perhaps you should realize that you are a bit out of your depth here. When in a hole, stop digging.
Yes 11 year is there , but it is not dominant, the dominant peak at twice the amplitude is the Hale cycle
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/HA-SSN.htm
the data file for Hungarian aurora I compiled myself from this list:
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/HuAu.gif
If you have data for S. Sweden aurora I can look to see existence of both 22 and 80 year cycles.
I have looked at Silverman’s graphs, but that doesn’t mean that his FFT analysis is any more accurate than yours
The 80 years cycle was discussed by you and Henry P at some length, he was insisting on 80 and you on 105 or so.
It is correct to say that Earth captures 11 year cycle, but it differentiates in intensity of response between odd and even cycles. Aurorae are linked to geomagnetic storms.
“For reasons not fully understood, CMEs in even-numbered solar cycles (like 24) tend to hit Earth with a leading edge that is magnetized north. Such a CME should open a breach and load the magnetosphere with plasma just before the storm gets underway.” See Tony Philips-NASA
I shall read Feynman article with great interest, but he looked at six proxy data sets, so to ascertain accuracy we would need data
vukcevic says:
July 27, 2013 at 8:16 am
Yes 11 year is there , but it is not dominant
As you can see here
http://www.leif.org/research/Ungarn-Aurorae-1600-1960.png
http://www.leif.org/research/Rubenson-Auroral-Catalog.png
http://www.leif.org/EOS/92RG01571.pdf Figures 5 and 10
the 11-yr cycle is dominant below 50 years.
the data file for Hungarian aurora I compiled myself from this list
and where did you get the list from? It looks like it is cribbed from the list on my website.
If you have data for S. Sweden aurora
Of course I have data for S. Sweden. No need for you to look at it. I already showed you the power spectrum: http://www.leif.org/research/Rubenson-Auroral-Catalog.png
I have looked at Silverman’s graphs, but that doesn’t mean that his FFT analysis is any more accurate than yours
It is a good as mine. And you looking at his graphs has nothing to do with the accuracy of his analysis.
The 80 years cycle was discussed by you and Henry P at some length, he was insisting on 80 and you on 105 or so.
You are confused. The 105 years is what the sunspot cycle long period has been the past few hundred years. All of those are not real cycles, but quasi-cycles.
It is correct to say that Earth captures 11 year cycle, but it differentiates in intensity of response between odd and even cycles. Aurorae are linked to geomagnetic storms.
The 22-yr cycle in geomagnetic storm is but a small [hard to detect] second-order effect. And it has nothing to do with even-odd cycles, but to the solar polar polarities changing at solar maximum. The effect is explained here: section 9 [page 51] of http://www.leif.org/research/suipr699.pdf
“For reasons not fully understood, CMEs in even-numbered solar cycles (like 24) tend to hit Earth with a leading edge that is magnetized north. Such a CME should open a breach and load the magnetosphere with plasma just before the storm gets underway.” See Tony Philips-NASA
Dumbed down to the point of being wrong.
I shall read Feynman article with great interest, but he looked at six proxy data sets, so to ascertain accuracy we would need data
She describes in detail what data set she used. And since you get the power spectrum wrong in the first place, you will also get them wrong with her data.
Per Willis above, I’m guessing Nicola didn’t have to submit and code/spreadsheets to E&E as a requirement for publishing.
vukcevic says:
July 27, 2013 at 1:17 am
Leif Svalgaard says:
July 26, 2013 at 6:01 pm
Re your ‘data’. You may recall the debunking of your ‘auroral’ data here on WUWT some time ago.
Doc. S is referring to the Hungarian aurora records. If these records are actually from the Hungary’s visible events, it being a mid latitude country, one would only observe strongest of auroras……
—
What constitutes “strongest auroras,” may be subjective.
Spaceweather.com has a nice aurora picture collection. I have watching and saving pics of Wisconsin aurora. Wisconsin is considered a northern tier state, along with Michigan, Minnesota, North Dakota etc. We are seeing plenty of aurora in these states along with some extending south into Iowa, and south from there even into Kansas. (land of Oz..) This northern tier lately doesn’t need solar flares or CME events to produce aurora at mid latitudes.
I do think that the orbital period of Jupiter and Saturn are more than coincident. But not for the reasons of solar cycle modulation. More the consequence of the magnetic solar cycle and not the modulation of it.
Thanks to Willis for his expose. (so far) Looking like a long haul..
Carla says:
July 27, 2013 at 10:19 am
What constitutes “strongest auroras,” may be subjective.
Spaceweather.com has a nice aurora picture collection. I have watching and saving pics of Wisconsin aurora. Wisconsin is considered a northern tier state, along with Michigan, Minnesota, North Dakota etc. We are seeing plenty of aurora in these states along with some extending south into Iowa, and south from there even into Kansas. (land of Oz..) This northern tier lately doesn’t need solar flares or CME events to produce aurora at mid latitudes.
Neither you, Vuk, not Scafetta seem to know [which is OK, but you can learn now from this comment] that the visibility of aurorae does not follow the geographical latitude. but the magnetic latitude, which makes a big ‘dip’ over North America. Here http://www.leif.org/research/Auroral-Regions.png is a map of the regions Fritz divided the Earth into for determining auroral visibility. The curves show magnetic latitude ‘circles’. You can see that the US and Canada [look for New York and Toronto] have the same chance of seeing aurorae as [the much more northerly] Scandinavia. Hungary is on par with Sacramento, CA. So from an auroral view point the northern tier of states in the US is not ‘mid-latitudes’.
To have so many mid latitude aurora “PARTICLE” precipitation, we might have more “PARTICLES” to precipitate.
Back to the radiation belts.. and those re energized neutrals to ACR velocities.. Coming in, in the color of their elemental values. Some are light weights and haze the upper strats and some are heavier and graze the lowerer strats..
Still “Fixing a Hole,” (Beatles) were the rain gets in.
Vuks whats this about a Japanese knotweed. In Norway there is variety called “Northern Lights.” I don’t think they call it knotweed though. Better domestic than on the international trade routes..
Carla says:
July 27, 2013 at 11:09 am
To have so many mid latitude aurora “PARTICLE” precipitation, we might have more “PARTICLES” to precipitate.
But where they precipitate depends on the Earth’s magnetic field. It seems that you didn’t learn anything, after all.
Back to the radiation belts..
Perhaps some other thread would be more appropriate. Here you are off-topic.
Leif IF the solar parameters I mentioned are acheived and the temperatures drop correspondingly would you concede the solar climate connection exist?
If not what would be your alternative explaniation to explain why the temperatures did drop when very quiet solar conditions did occur ,in spite of the CO2 increases?
I know this is premature but I hope you can think about it, just in case the above proves reality.
I disagree with Leif, but I also think he is sincere in his opinions after reading all his many thoughts, that is why the questions. But don’t need to be answered, but want to pose them nevertheless.
I can usually tell.
He has much to say, let us see what prevails.
In particle precipitation, if neon and helium ACR hang higher up and Hydrogen ACR hangs lowered after precipitation, where would the Carbon and Nitrogen and Oxygen ACR end up after they precipitate?
should be sal del prete
Salvatore Dep Prete says:
July 27, 2013 at 11:19 am
Leif IF the solar parameters I mentioned are acheived and the temperatures drop correspondingly would you concede the solar climate connection exist?
No, as many other explanations are possible. Just as you will come up with similar excuses.
Carla says:
July 27, 2013 at 11:28 am
In particle precipitation, if neon and helium ACR hang higher up and Hydrogen ACR hangs lowered after precipitation, where would the Carbon and Nitrogen and Oxygen ACR end up after they precipitate?
The auroral precipitation are not Anomalous Cosmic Rays, so you are still off-topic.
What other explanations, that is what I am curious about? You would lean toward coincidence?
Leif Svalgaard says:
July 27, 2013 at 10:35 am
… the visibility of aurorae does not follow the geographical latitude. but the magnetic latitude, which makes a big ‘dip’ over North America. Here http://www.leif.org/research/Auroral-Regions.png is a map of the regions Fritz divided the Earth into for determining auroral visibility. The curves show magnetic latitude ‘circles’. You can see that the US and Canada [look for New York and Toronto] have the same chance of seeing aurorae as [the much more northerly] Scandinavia. Hungary is on par with Sacramento, CA…
—
Thanks Dr. S. that’s helpful..
And that dip has fluctuations..
Lighten up a little Dr. S., time marches on, good day.
I think a climate forecast and an explanation if they both occur has to be given serious consideration if made in advance. Notice I did not say both correct, but the fact they both happened, has to be given serious consideration.
I will be the first to concede if solar quiet prevails to the degree I say and the temperatures do not respond.
Salvatore Del Prete says:
July 27, 2013 at 11:42 am
What other explanations, that is what I am curious about? You would lean toward coincidence?
Considering that the correlations break down going back in time, there are surely other explanations. I’m leaning towards Confirmation Bias.
Carla says:
July 27, 2013 at 11:47 am
Leif Svalgaard says:
And that dip has fluctuations..
No, not on time scales of interest. There are very slow changes over thousands of years, but not over decades or a few centuries.
Salvatore Del Prete says:
July 27, 2013 at 11:51 am
I think a climate forecast and an explanation if they both occur has to be given serious consideration if made in advance. Notice I did not say both correct, but the fact they both happened, has to be given serious consideration.
Not if such associations did not happen consistently in the past.
Leif Svalgaard says:
July 27, 2013 at 11:37 am
Carla says:
July 27, 2013 at 11:28 am
In particle precipitation, if neon and helium ACR hang higher up and Hydrogen ACR hangs lowered after precipitation, where would the Carbon and Nitrogen and Oxygen ACR end up after they precipitate?
The auroral precipitation are not Anomalous Cosmic Rays, so you are still off-topic.
—
ACR Anomalous Cosmic Rays are resident in the radiation belts. In particular are increased in density during periods of lower solar cycle activity such as the present. The radiation belts are analogous to a cloud around the earth that increases in density during periods of lower solar cycle activity such as the present. How does the radiation ah “cloud” around the Earth affect the ultra violet spectrum, penetration values? Are the slow speed solar winds accelerating trapped low energy ACR, back to penetration speeds, (freeing them) and they are just blowing on down the line. Those fluctuations in the outer belt may be indicating so that some of them are. Aren’t low energy ACR freed where ever there is a breach in the field where they were trapped?
Sorry, just having one of those moments.
Carla says:
July 27, 2013 at 12:23 pm
ACR Anomalous Cosmic Rays are resident in the radiation belts.
The radiation belts are not made up of ACRs. Just as the Moon is not made of green cheese.
It is a funny kinda rainbow wrapped around the planet, though.
“She’s a Rainbow,” 1966 Rolling Stones
Carla says:
July 27, 2013 at 12:38 pm
It is a funny kinda rainbow wrapped around the planet, though.
We were considering sources of precipitating particles. There are some coming from the outer radiation belt [but most come from the tail]. The inner belt[s] are not part of this process. Here is some information on ACRs and belts http://lasp.colorado.edu/~lix/paper/ICS6/ics6.pdf Some ACRs can get trapped in the magnetosphere [as any charged particles can]. As they are heavy ions they will be trapped close to the Earth, but because heavy ions are rare “the absolute flux of the ACR belt is much weaker compared with the inner belt”, so the ‘Radiation Belts’ as sources for precipitating particles do not contain ACRs. Try to stay on topic.
Leif Svalgaard says:
July 27, 2013 at 9:22 am
Of course I have data for S. Sweden. No need for you to look at it. I already showed you the power spectrum: http://www.leif.org/research/Rubenson-Auroral-Catalog.png
Oh no, for a moment I thought that was Dr. Scafetta talking.
Please Sir, I want some more..data…
vukcevic says:
July 27, 2013 at 2:24 pm
Please Sir, I want some more..data…
1722 0 1723 0 1724 2 1725 0 1726 2 1727 24 1728 14 1729 18 1730 7 1731 8 1732 6 1733 9 1734 11 1735 4 1736 9 1737 12 1738 9 1739 27 1740 30 1741 9 1742 1 1743 2 1744 1 1745 2 1746 1 1747 1 1748 9 1749 12 1750 10 1751 11 1752 2 1753 7 1754 18 1755 15 1756 7 1757 13 1758 14 1759 10 1760 6 1761 11 1762 13 1763 10 1764 16 1765 8 1766 7 1767 4 1768 10 1769 11 1770 19 1771 6 1772 4 1773 15 1774 43 1775 70 1776 7 1777 32 1778 18 1779 17 1780 17 1781 47 1782 52 1783 35 1784 9 1785 17 1786 35 1787 42 1788 18 1789 27 1790 18 1791 30 1792 30 1793 19 1794 0 1795 2 1796 4 1797 2 1798 1 1799 2 1800 0 1801 2 1802 2 1803 2 1804 4 1805 10 1806 3 1807 4 1808 0 1809 0 1810 0 1811 0 1812 2 1813 1 1814 0 1815 0 1816 0 1817 5 1818 0 1819 3 1820 1 1821 2 1822 0 1823 0 1824 0 1825 1 1826 3 1827 2 1828 2 1829 2 1830 8 1831 21 1832 7 1833 4 1834 6 1835 6 1836 5 1837 14 1838 12 1839 24 1840 33 1841 21 1842 11 1843 5 1844 3 1845 3 1846 7 1847 11 1848 22 1849 38 1850 18 1851 11 1852 42 1853 20 1854 28 1855 9 1856 6 1857 3 1858 27 1859 17 1860 39 1861 25 1862 16 1863 30 1864 19 1865 22 1866 9 1867 12 1868 8 1869 18 1870 37 1871 66 1872 38 1873 53 1874 16 1875 13 1876 6 1877 10
to play with. This is what you should reproduce http://www.leif.org/research/Rubenson-Auroral-Catalog.png
vukcevic says:
July 27, 2013 at 2:24 pm
Please Sir, I want some more..data…
1722 0 1723 0 1724 2 1725 0 1726 2 1727 24 1728 14 1729 18 1730 7 1731 8 1732 6 1733 9 1734 11 1735 4 1736 9 1737 12 1738 9 1739 27 1740 30 1741 9 1742 1 1743 2 1744 1 1745 2 1746 1 1747 1 1748 9 1749 12 1750 10 1751 11 1752 2 1753 7 1754 18 1755 15 1756 7 1757 13 1758 14 1759 10 1760 6 1761 11 1762 13 1763 10 1764 16 1765 8 1766 7 1767 4 1768 10 1769 11 1770 19 1771 6 1772 4 1773 15 1774 43 1775 70 1776 7 1777 32 1778 18 1779 17 1780 17 1781 47 1782 52 1783 35 1784 9 1785 17 1786 35 1787 42 1788 18 1789 27 1790 18 1791 30 1792 30 1793 19 1794 0 1795 2 1796 4 1797 2 1798 1 1799 2 1800 0 1801 2 1802 2 1803 2 1804 4 1805 10 1806 3 1807 4 1808 0 1809 0 1810 0 1811 0 1812 2 1813 1 1814 0 1815 0 1816 0 1817 5 1818 0 1819 3 1820 1 1821 2 1822 0 1823 0 1824 0 1825 1 1826 3 1827 2 1828 2 1829 2 1830 8 1831 21 1832 7 1833 4 1834 6 1835 6 1836 5 1837 14 1838 12 1839 24 1840 33 1841 21 1842 11 1843 5 1844 3 1845 3 1846 7 1847 11 1848 22 1849 38 1850 18 1851 11 1852 42 1853 20 1854 28 1855 9 1856 6 1857 3 1858 27 1859 17 1860 39 1861 25 1862 16 1863 30 1864 19 1865 22 1866 9 1867 12 1868 8 1869 18 1870 37 1871 66 1872 38 1873 53 1874 16 1875 13 1876 6 1877 10
to play with. This is what you should reproduce http://www.leif.org/research/Rubenson-Auroral-Catalog.png
It is good to see that you concede all the other points of ‘Leif Svalgaard says: July 27, 2013 at 9:22 am’ and have grasped the explanation in section 9 of http://www.leif.org/research/suipr699.pdf so that we don’t need to re-visit that repeatedly.
Leif Svalgaard says:
July 27, 2013 at 12:47 pm
..“the absolute flux of the ACR belt is much weaker compared with the inner belt”, so the ‘Radiation Belts’ as sources for precipitating particles do not contain ACRs…
—
Without being to pushy..
I’m saying they are saying this varies with solar cycle. So sometimes the little weak ACR belt gets bigger and stronger.. Like during solar minimum periods and like extended solar minimum periods.
They arrive early marking the solar slow down beginning phase. And they come in at fluxes 5 to 10 times higher than at previous minimum.
The return of the anomalous cosmic rays to 1 AU in 1992
R. A. Mewaldt1, A. C. Cummings1, J. R. Cummings1, E. C. Stone1,
B. Klecker2, D. Hovestadt2, M. Scholer2, G. M. Mason3, J. E. Mazur3,
D. C. Hamilton3, T. T. von Rosenvinge4, J. B. Blake5
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/93GL02493/abstract
Article first published online: 7 DEC 2012
New observations of low energy (∼1 to 200 MeV/nuc) cosmic rays measured by three newly launched experiments on SAMPEX during 1992 and 1993 show the strong presence of anomalous cosmic ray (ACR) nitrogen and oxygen, well before the approaching solar minimum. When compared with ACR temporal variations over the past two solar cycles we find that the 1992–1993 fluxes are ∼5 to 10 times their level at corresponding neutron monitor counting rates in 1969–1970 and 1985.
And again this time the specie of cosmic ray is Carbon. For this minimum, the intensity maximum for Carbon is 25% higher than the last..
20-125 MeV/nuc COSMIC RAY CARBON 6 NUCLEI INTENSITIES
BETWEEN 2004-2010 IN SOLAR CYCLE #23 AS MEASURED NEAR THE EARTH,
AT VOYAGER 2 AND ALSO IN THE HELIOSHEATH AT VOYAGER 1 –
MODULATION IN A TWO ZONE HELIOSPEHRE
W.R Webber1, A.C. Cummings2, E.C. Stone2, F.B. McDonald3, R.A. Mewaldt2,
R. Leske2, M. Wiedenbeck2, P.R. Higbie4, and B. Heikkila5
http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1202/1202.2081.pdf
..At the Earth the Carbon intensities reached levels ~25% higher than those
observed during the previous 11-year intensity maximum in 1997-98 (McDonald, Webber and
Reames, 2010; Mewaldt, et al., 2010)…
But thanks for the time Dr. S. no need to answer.