Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
Well, I wasn’t going to mention this paper, but it seems to be getting some play in the blogosphere. Our friend Nicola Scafetta is back again, this time with a paper called “Solar and planetary oscillation control on climate change: hind-cast, forecast and a comparison with the CMIP5 GCMs”. He’s posted it up over at Tallbloke’s Talkshop. Since I’m banned over at Tallbloke’s, I thought I’d discuss it here. The paper itself is here, take your Dramamine before jumping on board. Dr. Scafetta has posted here on WUWT several times before, each time with his latest, greatest, new improved model. Here’s how well Scafetta’s even more latester, greatester new model hindcasts, as well as what it predicts, compared with HadCRUT4:
Figure 1. Figure 16A from Scafetta 2013. This shows his harmonic model alone (black), plus his model added to the average of the CMIP5 models following three different future “Representative Concentration Pathways”, or RCPs. The RCPs give various specified future concentrations of greenhouse gases. HadCRUT4 global surface temperature (GST) is in gray.
So far, in each of his previous three posts on WUWT, Dr. Scafetta has said that the Earth’s surface temperature is ruled by a different combination of cycles depending on the post:
First Post: 20 and 60 year cycles. These were supposed to be related to some astronomical cycles which were never made clear, albeit there was much mumbling about Jupiter and Saturn.
Second Post: 9.1, 10-11, 20 and 60 year cycles. Here are the claims made for these cycles:
9.1 years : this was justified as being sort of near to a calculation of (2X+Y)/4, where X and Y are lunar precession cycles,
“10-11″ years: he never said where he got this one, or why it’s so vague.
20 years: supposedly close to an average of the sun’s barycentric velocity period.
60 years: kinda like three times the synodic period of Jupiter/Saturn. Why three times? Why not?
Third Post: 9.98, 10.9, and 11.86 year cycles. These are claimed to be
9.98 years: slightly different from a long-term average of the spring tidal period of Jupiter and Saturn.
10.9 years: may be related to a quasi 11-year solar cycle … or not.
11.86 years: Jupiter’s sidereal period.
The latest post, however, is simply unbeatable. It has no less than six different cycles, with periods of 9.1, 10.2, 21, 61, 115, and 983 years. I haven’t dared inquire too closely as to the antecedents of those choices, although I do love the “3” in the 983 year cycle. Plus there’s a mystery ingredient, of course.
Seriously, he’s adding together six different cycles. Órale, that’s a lot! Now, each of those cycles has three different parameters that totally define the cycle. These are the period (wavelength), the amplitude (size), and the phase (starting point in time) of the cycle.
This means that not only is Scafetta exercising free choice in the number of cycles that he includes (in this case six). He also has free choice over the three parameters for each cycle (period, amplitude, and phase). That gives him no less than 18 separate tunable parameters.
Just roll that around in your mouth and taste it, “eighteen tunable parameters”. Is there anything that you couldn’t hindcast given 18 different tunable parameters?
Anyhow, if I were handing out awards, I’d certainly give him the first award for having eighteen arbitrary parameters. But then, I’d have to give him another award for his mystery ingredient.
Because of all things, the mystery ingredient in Scafetta’s equation is the average hindcast (and forecast) modeled temperature of the CMIP5 climate models. Plus the mystery ingredient comes with its own amplitude parameter (0.45), along with a hidden parameter for the zero point of the average model temperatures before being multiplied by the amplitude parameter. So that makes twenty different adjustable parameters.
Now, I don’t even know what to say about this method. I’m dumbfounded. He’s starting with the average of the CMIP5 climate models, adjusted by an amplitude parameter and a zeroing parameter. Then he’s figuring the deviations from that adjusted average model result based on his separate 6-cycle, 18-parameter model. The sum of the two is his prediction. I truly lack words to describe that, it’s such an awesome logical jump I can only shake my head in awe at the daring trapeze leaps of faith …
I suppose at this point I need to quote the story again of Freeman Dyson, Enrico Fermi, “Johnny” Von Neumann, and the elephant. Here is Freeman Dyson, with the tale of tragedy:
By the spring of 1953, after heroic efforts, we had plotted theoretical graphs of meson–proton scattering.We joyfully observed that our calculated numbers agreed pretty well with Fermi’s measured numbers. So I made an appointment to meet with Fermi and show him our results. Proudly, I rode the Greyhound bus from Ithaca to Chicago with a package of our theoretical graphs to show to Fermi.
When I arrived in Fermi’s office, I handed the graphs to Fermi, but he hardly glanced at them. He invited me to sit down, and asked me in a friendly way about the health of my wife and our newborn baby son, now fifty years old. Then he delivered his verdict in a quiet, even voice.
“There are two ways of doing calculations in theoretical physics”, he said. “One way, and this is the way I prefer, is to have a clear physical picture of the process that you are calculating. The other way is to have a precise and self-consistent mathematical formalism. You have neither.”
I was slightly stunned, but ventured to ask him why he did not consider the pseudoscalar meson theory to be a self-consistent mathematical formalism. He replied, “Quantum electrodynamics is a good theory because the forces are weak, and when the formalism is ambiguous we have a clear physical picture to guide us.With the pseudoscalar meson theory there is no physical picture, and the forces are so strong that nothing converges. To reach your calculated results, you had to introduce arbitrary cut-off procedures that are not based either on solid physics or on solid mathematics.”
In desperation I asked Fermi whether he was not impressed by the agreement between our calculated numbers and his measured numbers. He replied, “How many arbitrary parameters did you use for your calculations?” I thought for a moment about our cut-off procedures and said, “Four.” He said, “I remember my friend Johnny von Neumann used to say, with four parameters I can fit an elephant, and with five I can make him wiggle his trunk.”
With that, the conversation was over. I thanked Fermi for his time and trouble, and sadly took the next bus back to Ithaca to tell the bad news to the students.
Given that lesson from Dyson, and bearing in mind that Scafetta is using a total of 20 arbitrary parameters … are we supposed to be surprised that Nicola can make an elephant wiggle his trunk? Heck, with that many parameters, he should be able to make that sucker tap dance and spit pickle juice …
Now, you can expect that if Nicola Scafetta shows up, he will argue that somehow the 20 different parameters are not arbitrary, oh, no, they are fixed by the celestial processes. They will likely put forward the same kind of half-ast-ronomical explanation they’ve used before—that this one represents (2X+Y)/4, where X and Y are lunar precession cycles, or that another one’s 60 year cycle is kind of near three times the synodic period of Jupiter and Saturn (59.5766 years) and close is good enough, that kind of thing. Or perhaps they’ll make the argument that Fourier analysis shows peaks that are sort of near to their chosen numbers, and that’s all that’s needed.
The reality is, if you give me a period in years, I can soon come up with several astronomical cycles that can be added, subtracted, and divided to give you something very near the period you’ve given me … which proves nothing.
Scafetta has free choice of how many cycles to include, and free choice as to the length, amplitude, and phase of each those cycles. And even if he can show that the length of one of his cycles is EXACTLY equal to some astronomical constant, not just kind of near it, he still has totally free choice of phase and amplitude for that cycle. So to date, he’s the leading contender for the 2013 Johnny Von Neumann award, which is given for the most tunable parameters in any scientific study.
The other award I’d give this paper would be for Scafetta’s magical Figure 11, which I reproduce below in all its original glory.
Figure 2. Scafetta’s Figure 11 (click to enlarge) ORIGINAL CAPTION: (Left) Schematic representation of the rise and fall of several civilizations since Neolithic times that well correlates with the 14C radio- nucleotide records used for estimating solar activity (adapted from Eddy’s figures in Refs. [90, 91]). Correlated solar-climate multisecular and millennial patterns are recently confirmed [43, 44, 47]. (Right) Kepler’s Trigon diagram of the great Jupiter and Saturn conjunctions between 1583 to 1763 [89], highlighting 20 year and 60 year astronomical cycles, and a slow millennial rotation.
First off, does that graphic, Figure 11 in Scafetta’s opus, make you feel better or worse about Dr. Scafetta’s claims? Does it give you that warm fuzzy feeling about his science? And why are Kepler’s features smooched out sideways and his fingers so long? At least let me give the poor fellow back his original physiognomy.
There, that’s better. Next, you need to consider the stepwise changes he shows in “carbon 14”, and the square-wave nature of the advance and retreat of alpine glaciers at the lower left. That in itself was good, I hadn’t realized that the glaciers advanced and retreated in that regular a fashion, or that carbon 14 was unchanged for years before and after each shift in concentration. And I did appreciate that there were no units for any of the four separate graphs on the page, that counted heavily in his favor. But what I awarded him full style points for was the seamless segue from alpine glaciers to the “winter severity index” in the year 1000 … that was a breathtaking leap.
And as you might expect from a man citing Kepler, Scafetta treats scientific information like fine wine—he doesn’t want anything of recent vintage. Apparently on his planet you have to let science mellow for some decades before you bring it out to breathe … and in that regard, I direct your attention to the citation in the bottom center of his Figure 11, “Source: Geophysical Data, J. Biddy J. B. Eddy (USA) 1978″. (Thanks to Nicola for the correction, the print was too small to read.)
Where he stepped up to the big leagues, though, is in the top line in the chart. Click on the chart to enlarge it if you haven’t done so yet, so you can see all the amazing details. The “Sumeric Maximum”, the collapse of Machu Pichu, the “Greek Minimum”, the end of the Maya civilization, the “Pyramid Maximum” … talk about being “Homeric in scope”, he’s even got the “Homeric Minimum”.
Finally, he highlights the “20 year and 60 year astronomical cycles” in Kepler’s chart at the right. In fact, what he calls the “20 year” cycles shown in Kepler’s dates at the right vary from 10 to 30 years according to Kepler’s own figures shown inside the circle, and what he calls the “60 year astronomical cycles” include cycles from 50 to 70 years …
In any case, I’m posting all of this because I just thought folks might like to know of Nicola Scafetta’s latest stunning success. Using a mere six cycles and only twenty tunable parameters plus the average of a bunch of climate models, he has emulated the historical record with pretty darn good accuracy.
…
And now that he has explained just exactly how to predict the climate into the future, I guess the only mystery left is what he’ll do for an encore performance. Because this most recent paper of his, this one will be very hard to top.
In all seriousness, however, let me make my position clear.
Are there cycles in the climate? Yes, there are cycles. However, they are not regular, clockwork cycles like those of Jupiter and Saturn. Instead, one cycle will appear, and will be around for a while, and then disappear to be replaced by some longer or shorter cycle. It is maddening, frustrating, but that’s the chaotic nature of the beast. The Pacific Decadal Oscillation doesn’t beat like a clock, nor does the El Nino or the Madden-Julian oscillation or any other climate phenomena.
What is the longest cycle that can be detected in a hundred year dataset? My rule of thumb is that even if I have two full cycles, my results are too uncertain to lean on. I want three cycles so I can at least get a sense about the variation. So for a hundred year dataset, any cycle over fifty years in length is a non-starter, and thirty-three years and shorter is what I will start to trust.
Can you successfully hindcast temperatures using other cycles than the ones Scafetta uses? Certainly. He has demonstrated that himself, as this is the fourth combination of arbitrarily chosen cycles that he has used. Note that in each case he has claimed the model was successful. This by no means exhausts the possible cycle combinations that can successfully emulate the historical temperature.
Does Scafetta’s accomplishment mean anything? Sure. It means that with six cycles and no less than twenty tunable parameters, you can do just about anything. Other than that, no. It is meaningless.
Could he actually test his findings? Sure, and I’ve suggested it to him. What you need to do is run the analysis again, but this time using the data from say 1910 to 1959 only. Derive your 20 fitted variables using this data alone.
Then test your 20 fitted variables against the data from 1960 to 2009, and see how the variables pan out.
Then do it the other way around. Train the model on the later data, and see how well it does on the early data. It’s not hard to do. He knows how to do it. But if he has ever done it, I have not seen anywhere that he has reported the results.
How do I know all this? Folks, I can’t tell you how many late nights I’ve spent trying to fit any number and combination of cycles to the historical climate data. I’ve used Fourier analysis and periodicity analysis and machine-learning algorithms and wavelets and stuff I’ve invented myself. Whenever I’ve thought I have something, as soon as it leaves the training data and starts on the out-of-sample data, it starts to diverge from reality. And of course, the divergence increases over time.
But that’s simply the same truth we all know about computer weather forecasting programs—out-of-sample, they don’t do all that well, and quickly become little better than a coin flip.
Finally, even if the cycles fit the data and we ignore the ridiculous number of arbitrary parameters, where is the physical mechanism connecting some (2*X+T)/4 combination of two astronomical cycles, and the climate? As Enrico Fermi pointed out, you need to have either “a clear physical picture of the process that you are calculating” or “a precise and self-consistent mathematical formalism”.
w.
PS—Please don’t write in to say that although Nicola is wrong, you have the proper combination of cycles, based on your special calculations. Also, please don’t try to explain how a cycle of 21 years is really, really similar to the Jupiter-Saturn synodic cycle of 19+ years. I’m not buying cycles of any kind, motorcycles, epicycles, solar cycles, bicycles, circadian cycles, nothing. Sorry. Save them for some other post, they won’t go bad, but please don’t post them here.
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Salvatore Depl Prete says:
July 25, 2013 at 1:09 pm
face up to being wrong when that time comes.
Presuming that you will do that too and eat humble pie when the time comes [in less that seven years].
Here is an example of what I am trying to get at.
Example 1
AO index say goes from an average of +0.50 std to -0.75 std. Climate does not cool in response to a more negative AO, the AGW crowd says see no correlation told you so.
They don’t understand a threshold value has to be reached to get a major climate effect. I dare say an avg. AO index of -2.00std or greater is needed to get a major climatic effect.
Example 2- The solar output is changing ,look no climate response, therefore the sun is not a player when it comes to the climate .
No consideration being given to the duration of the solar quiet, the degree of magnitude of the quiet, the beginning state of the climate, the previous solar action prior to the quiet period, the state of ocean heat content prior to the start of the solar quiet, volcanic activity prior to the start of the solar quiet, the relative numbers of El Ninos/La Ninas, the state of the PDO/AMO prior to the solar quiet etc etc etc.
All of which will have a profound effect on how the prolonged solar minimum interacts with the climate , at least during the formative stage.
Evenually the secondary effects kick in, but only if duration and magnitude reach the critical values, which is going to be the case this decade, but has not been the case since the 1790-1830 Dalton Solar Minimum period.
Anthony’s post on the synthesizer made me remember that a triangular wave is made of the odd harmonics. So a triangular wave with a period of 63 years would have strong harmonics at
63 yrs
21 yrs (63/3)
12.6 yrs (63/5)
9 yrs (63/7)
The original wave looks rather triangular — perhaps by chance; perhaps terrestrial feedbacks lead to that; perhaps the planetary influences are coincidentally in phase. Triangular wave should have these periods for their harmonics.
Leif Svalgaard says:
July 25, 2013 at 1:07 pm
Thanks.
Salvatore Depl Prete says:
July 25, 2013 at 1:23 pm
No consideration being given to the duration of the solar quiet, the degree of magnitude of the quiet, the beginning state of the climate, the previous solar action prior to the quiet period, the state of ocean heat content prior to the start of the solar quiet, volcanic activity prior to the start of the solar quiet, the relative numbers of El Ninos/La Ninas, the state of the PDO/AMO prior to the solar quiet etc etc etc.
None of the other proponents take all of that into account when the bassoon their correlations. These factors all look like excuses for why the correlations fail. Yet you [without analysis and justification] declare that these things will work out “before the end of this decade”.
Color me unimpressed.
{ Leif Svalgaard says:
July 25, 2013 at 1:07 pm }
Sorry to be difficult—but then why do Comets have tails? From interactions with planet atsmospheres? Or solar wind, or ?
Willis said:
“As I said, he’s fitting the phase, not using the phase of an actual astronomical cycle.”
It’s not an actual astronomical cycle so he can’t. The 115yrs is the beat of half a Jupiter-Saturn synodic period (9.93yrs) and 10.87yrs, a “theoretical cycle” which is *close to* half way between 9.93yrs and 11.86yrs (Jupiter orbit), apparently.
Leif , you and all the others want it to be x plus x gives you x. It just does not work that way when it comes to the climate.
This is why it is impossible for climate models to predict the future climate. x plus x wiLl not give the same x climate result.This is the downfall for you and those who agree with you. You want x plus x gives x.
Again the same forcings on the climate system can have completly different results depending on initial conditions, and or the state of the climate to begin with.The climate system is also non linear, with thresholds.
Nature is giving us the opportunity to see which theory is correct due to the prolonged solar minimum we are now in.
We have the perfect contrast which is increasing CO2 which according to AGW theory should cause the temperatures to rise, and a prolonged solar minimum which should cause the temperatures to drop.
The contrast can not be more stark. This is wonderful because the temperature response is going to determine which one is correct.
We should all know before the decade ends which one is correct and which one is wrong.
Leif best regards, this is nothing personel.
Willis Eschenbach says:
July 25, 2013 at 11:07 am
This gives me a huge advantage in the field, because I’m a generalist. I’ve spent my life extending the breadth of my knowledge across all fields, rather than extending the depth of my knowledge in a single field.
So. Does my breadth of knowledge mean that I am “qualified” to review scientific papers on solar/planetary science?
No, doing the maths behind solar system objects and having some climate knowledge does not qualify you. I gave you (and Svalgaard) a simple question that tests your knowledge of planetary theory, that question is key to understanding this realm of science. You both failed, so nothing more needs to be said, Anthony asked me to “step up” and I have.
Landscheidt got nearly everything wrong, but he opened the door to make it right, without his work we would be years behind. There is one graph that I pointed out to Leif (which he has gone quiet on) that sums up everything you need to know about Landscheidt.
http://www.landscheidt.info/images/landscheidtpred.png
If you understand the importance of this graph you can throw away all the questions and mathematical work you did in the past. All that is important is that he recognized a particular planetary configuration that happens NEAR grand minima.
Sharp went on via Carl’s graph to identify the correct planetary configuration that occurs DURING grand minima and a method of quantification of the modulation. We dont need to concern ourselves with physical drivers because the configuration hindcasts all grand minima of the past 5000 years and accurately predicts the future, as it is doing now. It is pretty simple really, a certain configuration causes the Sun to take a path that it only takes during grand minima, this is hard science that does not need “fingers or hands”.
You have no knowledge of this and also do not understand that there is no hard cycle that can be identified. Without this knowledge you are not qualified to write stupid “Cyclomania” articles on this website, all it does is make you look foolish.
Leif, I said if these solar parameters are met on a consistent basis, solar flux sub 90,solar wind sub 350 km/sec.,ap index 5.0 or lower 98+% of the time, solar irradiance off .2% or more, UV extreme short wavelengths off upwards of 50 % ,five to 10 years of sub-solar activity prior to those solar conditions mentioned, that I think the secondary effects associated with this type of solar acitivity will be enough to overcome the inherent negative feedbacks, and randomness in the earth climatic system to bring about a cooling, despite the initial state of the climate to begin with.
I don’t know if the temperature response is a slow gradual one or rapid short term then steady type of action. I don’t know what is needed to reach a threshold to make the climate go from one climate regime to another but I know from past history they are out there and this has been the rule rather then the exception.
If CO2 were the cause it would lead the temperature response not follow it , not to mention CO2 makes up only some .036% of the atmosphere, and the CO2/water vapor positive feedback has not happened. Also CO2 abrupt climatic change cannot be reconciled.
SECONDARY EFFECTS if and only if solar conditions meet those parameters which are hard to meet and have not been accomplished since the Dalton Solar Minimum on a consistent basis.
a more neg. AO result more clouds,precip. snow cover higher albedo,due to less ozoneor different distribution of ozone
more cosmic rays due to weak solar wind result more low clouds
more volcanic activitydue to cosmic rays ,shocks to earth magnetic field, result more so2 warmer stratosphere cooler surface temp.
decline in ocean heat content due to less visible sunlight
cold pdo /amo tied to length of day changes , result more La Ninas, less El Ninos
thermohaline circulation changes due to inputs or changes in fresh water into the system tied to atmospheric circulation changes
EARTH MAGNETIC FIELD
Weakening earth magnetic field – compounds all of the solar effects
This is my explanation if not this what? Yu think about it. Something has caused past climate changes and it has been quite often, so it can not be a one time trigger. Give a comprehensive alternative. Milankovitvh cycles can not account for all the short term rapid climate fluctuations.
@Nicola Scafetta, @tjfolkerts
tjflokerts says:
Your “OPEN CRACKPOT RANDI CHALLENGE” actually has (almost) nothing to do with the orbits of planets. It is simply an example of why the original paper is questionable — because fitting a curve to highly variable (potentially chaotic) data is rarely easy nor is it often very illuminating as the the underlying causes.
Quite the contrary think about what you have now correctly stated
The gravity effects of the planetary motions when viewed from any point in the system will look chaotic unless you know the correct mathematics … you have now accepted that …. and yes that is a fact.
So if climate is linked to that gravity effect with a direct correlation it should also be chaotic.
Both of those processes should not be able to have a fitted curve put on them for the same reason you couldn’t fit my crackpot challenge they contain a compounding chaotic error.
Now Nicola Scafetta claims to have fitted a curve on the climate data
So you do realize Nicola Scafetta has just FALSIFIED his own argument because he has proved planetary motion can not be linked to climate change because he should not be able to do that.
So if a fit of any curve is possible on the Climate data all of Nicola Scafetta discussion about planetary motion etc is stupid the effect has to be caused by something else or as willis is saying it’s just random chance.
Ergo Nicola Scafetta has shot his own argument down the tube.
The other point to all the astrological cycle maniacs is you are wasting your time trying to fit a curve to anything to do with planetary or gravity effects the only way it will ever work is a calculated fit by identifying and incorporating GR/SR compounding errors.
The answer to the crackpot challenge I gave is you need to know details of the small error I introduced (same reasoning as GR/SR error) and in my case I created the error by a pseudo random integer generator so you need to know about it and how it works.
If anyone wants to try some curve-fitting themselves, here is a spreadsheet that does a least-squares calculation for up to 6 sine waves and a quadratic. It comes pre-loaded with monthly HADCRUT4 data (not smoothed) and one fit that I did (quadratic plus 4 sinusoidal waves). It also forecasts for several decades into the future.
I have a non-linear optimizer that I used to get the parameters. If you don’t have such a thing, then you can play with the numbers by hand to try other fits. (You could even try something other than sine or quadratics if you really want).
I found the best fits with periods of:
69.544 51.932 21.946 9.175
I am sure others would find other fits that work well. I am also sure
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgM8XE4GABYQdEZfY0NYZWtGdHNjY1hvZjJpSUVQUlE&usp=sharing
Oh this is not good:
“Clive E. Birkland” says:
“No, doing the maths behind solar system objects and having some climate knowledge does not qualify you. I gave you (and Svalgaard) a simple question that tests your knowledge of planetary theory, that question is key to understanding this realm of science. You both failed, so nothing more needs to be said, Anthony asked me to “step up” and I have.”
I wouldn’t have asked had I known that “Clive E. Birkland” is just another fake name for Geoff Sharp who has been banned from WUWT. I determined this by cross referencing comment sourcings. Both “Clive” and Geoff’s come from the same location in Australia, months apart.
Geoff’s last message (or threat) when I banned him for over the top bad behavior was:
A bridge too far Anthony….expect a backlash.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/12/14/the-real-ipcc-ar5-draft-bombshell-plus-a-poll/#comment-1175573
In the meantime Geoff has snuck in also under the name “Stephen Walters” and “LBR” using at least two email aliases that I know of. In fact, he’s commented as two fake personas within six minutes of each other in this thread.
Stay classy there with that sockpuppeting, Geoff.
And to top off the sockpuppetry, “Clive” writes about Geoff Sharp here:
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/07/23/congenital-cyclomania-redux/#comment-1369792
Willis has been offered advise and teaching from Geoff Sharp in the past which he did not take up, Svalgaard is also yet to display any knowledge of the basic principles in a challenge raised by GS years ago on his website, and Anthony has no knowledge on the topic. You guys are not in a position to judge, let alone be capable of peer review.
So what qualifications does Geoff Sharp have over Willis or Leif?
From Geoff’s background page: http://www.landscheidt.info/?q=node/210
My background is in IT, based in Melbourne Australia, where my most recent role was Senior Consultant for a large international software house that covered a period of 20 years.
So, Geoff Sharp has no qualifications in solar physics, and apparently no published papers on the subject beyond his own website. But “Clive” suggests Dr. Svalgaard (who IS an actual solar physicist) isn’t qualified to deal with the questions, saying he’s “failed”.
I call eternal bullshit on Geoff Sharp. He’s become like the Doug Cotton of Landscheidtian theory.
Salvatore Del Prete says:
July 25, 2013 at 3:52 pm
you and all the others want it to be x plus x gives you x
Actually not, we are more inclined to want it to be 2x.
Clive E. Birkland says:
July 25, 2013 at 4:16 pm
You both failed
There are things that are just too stupid to react to. Perhaps you don’t know it but see Anthony’s comment], but this whole subject was thoroughly discussed at WUWT some years back, and solidly debunked.
I pointed out to Leif (which he has gone quiet on) that sums up everything you need to know about Landscheidt.
Here is the Figure that I showed four years ago on WUWT when we were discussing the http://www.leif.org/research/Angular%20Momentum%206000yr.png and its FFT power spectrum http://www.leif.org/research/Angular%20Momentum.png . This subject was debunked here long ago.
All that is important is that he recognized a particular planetary configuration that happens NEAR grand minima. Sharp went on via Carl’s graph to identify the correct planetary configuration that occurs DURING grand minima and a method of quantification of the modulation.
Eyeballing is even worse than curve fitting as it is subjective and cannot be replicated.
this is hard science that does not need “fingers or hands”.
This is nonsense, is what it is. Perhaps no hands are needed, just eyeballs and self-delusion.
make you look foolish
You do quite well in that department yourself.
Salvatore Del Prete says:
July 25, 2013 at 4:23 pm
Leif, I said if these solar parameters are met on a consistent basis, solar flux sub 90 … I think the secondary effects associated with this type of solar acitivity will be enough to overcome the inherent negative feedbacks, and randomness in the earth climatic system to bring about a cooling
You have shown no justification for your specific choices and no analysis showing what their effect might be.
If CO2 were the cause
You cannot use CO2 as an argument for your ideas. That leads to a cyclic argument.
This is my explanation if not this what?
No explanation at all, and you fall into the old trap: “what else can it be”.
Milankovitvh cycles can not account for all the short term rapid climate fluctuations.
A straw man as nobody is saying they do.
Anthony Watts says:
July 25, 2013 at 6:33 pm
I wouldn’t have asked had I known that “Clive E. Birkland” is just another fake name for Geoff Sharp who has been banned from WUWT. … In the meantime Geoff has snuck in also under the name “Stephen Walters” and “LBR” using at least two email aliases that I know of.
I call eternal bullshit on Geoff Sharp. He’s become like the Doug Cotton of Landscheidtian theory.
When Bernoulli posed a mathematical problem and initially nobody could solve it, he finally got a solution from an anonymous source, who was recognized by Bernoulli as Newton: “tanquam ex ungue leonem” (we recognize the lion by his claw). Perhaps we can from now on and henceforth recognize Geoff by his stink of BS.
Wow, what a farce this has turned into. GS launching a two headed attack on Willis, Anthony and Leif. I was wondering how such venom could be allowed by the mods. GS has overplayed his hand and been exposed as a tantrum throwing, spoiled brat.
@Anthony
Funny that it took you so long, your decision to ban someone who is now being accepted by main stream science is your greatest sin. A so called science site that bans people who hold different views to your own. You have no right to stifle debate that is important to scientific discovery, even if you are the owner of this site….you have a duty to science and will be remembered for your crime.
I am published at Cornell University and have several citations already. Very respected scientists will be publishing my theory this year, so I do not need qualifications because I AM RIGHT.
I look forward to the future where your name will be mud in the scientific community.
REPLY:Most anyone can publish at Cornell University Library under arxiv.org ( as you have http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1005/1005.5303.pdf) but that is not the same as passing peer review. It doesn’t even guarantee anyone will even look at it.
Details on how anyone can publish at Cornell can be seen here: http://arxiv.org/help/submit
Kenji might even have some pee reviewed papers there.
– Anthony
tjfolkerts says:
July 25, 2013 at 4:51 pm
I found the best fits with periods of: 69.544 51.932 21.946 9.175
I am sure others would find other fits that work well.
Very impressive fit, good enough to make the elephant wiggle its tail; shows the [empty] power of curve fitting
@ur momisugly Anthony
So if I was published in a peer reviewed journal would that make any difference?
I suspect not as my science does not fit your agenda.
Fact is my science is now being accepted by science, as I said there are papers already accepted that will be released soon, you can throw as many tantrums as you like but the facts speak for themselves.
You, Svalgaard and Willis are not qualified to comment on planetary science, get over it.
REPLY:
Riiiiight. So feel free to submit that paper to a peer reviewed journal and let us know when it publishes. I’ll give the paper “some” respect then. You, not so much.
And with that, we eject Geoff into the Ether, until he comes back as another recycled Landscheidtian buffoon. – Anthony
Be prepared to eat your words……..
REPLY: Hey if it gets published we’ll review it here. (Oh wait, we aren’t even qualified to talk about it, never mind.) That doesn’t mean it will be right. As we know, Dr. Scaffetta’s paper passed peer review at E&E and look at all the problems it has.
Good science can stand on its own, it doesn’t need sockpuppetry to sell it. – Anthony
Anthony,
You get some strange ducks here, don’t you. 🙂
And I always thought I was weird.
Thanks once again for running this blog. I feel like I should say that after witnessing some of the bizarre abuse you deal with in order to do so.
Nicola Scafetta says:
July 25, 2013 at 12:31 pm
You are 100% correct, Nicola, my bad. I was thinking “quartic” for some reason, not quadratic. As a result, there are only three arbitrary parameters in your detrending function alone, not five. My error, and my apologies.
I wasn’t trying to “convince” anyone. I was trying to count the arbitrary parameters. I overestimated by two. Mea culpa.
Don’t know about Anthony’s take, but reading your papers with the purpose to understand them is far from enough to allow me to understand the intricacies of the process you’ve used.
In addition, it is quite possible that there is some simple error in your calculations somewhere that you don’t know about. Wouldn’t be the first time that’s happened, at least to me …
Without access to the spreadsheet or computer code that you used, there is literally no way to assess your work. Even if I have honestly explained everything, what I think I have done may not be what I actually did. Without the code, there’s no way to find that out.
Like Phil Jones, you keep insisting that you don’t have to release the actual data and spreadsheets (or computer code) that you used. Mosher asked you for your data and code. Steve McIntyre made the same request. Anthony offered you the use of WUWT to spread your message if you’d reveal your data and code. I also have asked for the same thing—that you follow the simple scientific rules of transparency.
In response, you say one thing to all of us—read my papers, read my papers, read my papers. We’re not asking for your damn papers, Nicola. We’re asking for your data and your code or spreadsheets that actually do the calculations you’re talking about.
Do you think this is the 20th century? That kind of BS doesn’t fly any more. Twenty-first century scientists publish their data and their code, all of it. The code or spreadsheet producing the graphics is often the most important part of the puzzle. I publish mine, chapter and verse, data and code, for all of the scientific work that I do. Steve McIntyre does the same for his work, as do Mosher and Anthony. Are you going to man up and let people see your actual calculations and the actual data, or not?
So please don’t keep repeating “read my papers”. It’s time to put up or shut up, be a scientist or not, and so far you haven’t put up anything.
Your choice …
My preference? Truly and cordially, I invite you to join the ranks of scientists.
w.
Wow, thanks I have cyclomania burnout now.
Some good stuff on ACR Anomalous Cosmic Rays.
PROCEEDINGS OF THE 31 ICRC, ´ OD´Z 2009 1
The Unusual Behavior of Anomalous and Galactic Cosmic Ray
Intensities at 1 AU During the Present Solar Minimum
http://www.srl.utu.fi/AuxDOC/kocharov/ICRC2009/pdf/icrc0536.pdf
R. A. Leske , A. C. Cummings , C. M. S. Cohen , R. A. Mewaldt , E. C. Stone ,
M. E. Wiedenbeck , and T. T. von Rosenvinge
Abstract.
Since the early 1970’s, anomalous cosmic ray (ACR) intensities at 1 AU
at solar minimum have generally tracked the galactic cosmic ray (GCR) intensities
as measured by neutron monitors. Throughout the current A<0 cycle, however,
the ACR intensities are a factor of 34 lower than expected from
scaling neutron monitor rates; a similar discrepancy seems to have been present
during the last A<0 period in the mid-1980's. Also, although there have been no
major solar particle events for over 2 years, and sunspot numbers have been
at minimum levels for at least a year, the ACR intensities are at present a
factor of 2 lower than their maximum values during each of the last 3 solar minima,
suggesting that heliospheric conditions are not yet at minimum modulation
levels. This is probably associated with the fact that ACRs drift inward along the heliospheric
current sheet (HCS) during A<0 cycles, and the tilt of the current sheet is still
relatively high ( 23 deg) for solar minimum. However, while ACR intensities
are low, GCR intensities are at a record high, and compared with the last A<0 cycle,
we find that both ACR and GCR intensities are actually much higher
now for a given HCS tilt angle than they were in the mid-1980's.
20-125 MeV/nuc COSMIC RAY CARBON 6 NUCLEI INTENSITIES
BETWEEN 2004-2010 IN SOLAR CYCLE #23 AS MEASURED NEAR THE EARTH,
AT VOYAGER 2 AND ALSO IN THE HELIOSHEATH AT VOYAGER 1 –
MODULATION IN A TWO ZONE HELIOSPEHRE
http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1202/1202.2081.pdf
W.R Webber1, A.C. Cummings2, E.C. Stone2, F.B. McDonald3, R.A. Mewaldt2,
R. Leske2, M. Wiedenbeck2, P.R. Higbie4, and B. Heikkila5
..At about 2010.0 the cosmic ray Carbon nuclei intensity at the Earth reached its maximum
54 (Mewaldt, et al., 2010). At V1 the intensity of Carbon nuclei continues to increase as of 2010.5
55 whereas at V2 it reached a maximum in early 2009, then decreased, but after 2010.5 began a
56 rapid increase. At the Earth the Carbon intensities reached levels ~25% higher than those
57 observed during the previous 11-year intensity maximum in 1997-98 (McDonald, Webber and
58 Reames, 2010; Mewaldt, et al., 2010). At V1 the cosmic ray Carbon intensities are at the highest
59 levels yet observed and at energies ~100 MeV/nuc at 2010.5 are within ~20% of the estimated
60 LIS intensities for Carbon nuclei (see Webber and Higbie, 2009; George, et al., 2009).
61 It is the purpose of this paper to compare the Carbon nuclei intensities between 20-125
62 MeV/nuc observed at the Earth and those observed at V1 and V2 during this time period, within
63 the framework of simple modulation models, with the objective of understanding better the
64 global characteristics of the solar 11-year modulation cycle, including, particularly, the
65 modulation effects beyond the HTS in the heliosheath.
We have an ACR belt in the radiation belt regime. Still stuck in those radiation belts. The Earth's magnetopause pushes against the belts. Depending on how deep into the belts the pause goes and the IMF clock on the solar wind and different energetic ionization occurs? At different atmosphereic heights?
On a roll in those radiation belts..
Links between the plasmapause and the radiation belt boundaries as observed by the instruments CIS, RAPID, and WHISPER onboard Cluster
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jgra.50239/abstract
F. Darrouzet1,*, V. Pierrard1,2, S. Benck2,
G. Lointier3, J. Cabrera2, K. Borremans1,
N. Yu Ganushkina4,5, J. De Keyser1
Article first published online: 19 JUL 2013
[1] In the present work, we study the relations between the position of the plasmapause and the position of the radiation belt boundaries. The Cluster mission offers the exceptional opportunity to analyze those different regions of the inner magnetosphere with identical sensors on multiple spacecraft. We compare the positions of the radiation belt edges deduced from CIS (Cluster Ion Spectrometry) observations (electrons with energy >2 MeV) with the positions of the plasmapause derived from WHISPER (Waves of HIgh frequency and Sounder for Probing of the Electron density by Relaxation) data (electron plasma frequency). In addition, we compare those results with the edges positions determined from RAPID (Research with Adaptive Particle Imaging Detectors) observations (electrons with energy between 244.1 and 406.5keV). The period of 1 April 2007 to 31 March 2009 has been chosen for the analysis because at that time Cluster’s perigee was located at lower radial distances than during the earlier part of the mission. The perigee was then as close as 2 RE, deep inside the plasmasphere and the radiation belts. This time period corresponds to a long solar activity minimum. Differences are observed between the radiation belt boundary positions obtained from the two different instruments: The radiation belt positions are related to the energy bands. The results show that the plasmapause position is more variable than the radiation belt boundary positions, especially during small geomagnetic activity enhancements. A correspondence is observed between the plasmapause position determined by WHISPER and the outer edge of the outer radiation belt of energetic electrons (>2 MeV) observed by CIS. This result is unexpected since previous studies based on other spacecraft observations indicated a correlation between the inner edge of the outer belt and the plasmapause. However, during higher geomagnetic activity time periods, the plasmapause is located closer to the inner boundary of the outer radiation belt. Also, the thickness of the slot region is found to follow the global evolution of the geomagnetic activity.
Carla says:
July 25, 2013 at 9:33 pm
On a roll in those radiation belts..
It would be better to be a bit on Topic…
Geoff Sharp says:
July 25, 2013 at 7:32 pm
You mean that you’re nothing but a god damn sock puppet? Man, that’s depressing. I thought I was talking to a human being. Taking up an honest man’s time with that BS? Hey, if I were you I’d hide my identity too, that’s just slimy.
You claim Anthony has “No right to stifle debate”? That’s childish nonsense. The internet is a free place. If you want to make the rules, get your own blog. There, you can host the people that you think are being censored here. Heck, I’m banned from Open Mind, Tamino didn’t like my open mind I guess … and I’m banned at Tallblokes.
And that’s their right, their blogs, and they can run them as they see fit. There is no “duty to science” to allow me to comment on their blogs, or to allow you to comment here. It’s not a “crime” that Tamino has banned me, it’s just another part of life’s rich pageant.
But I’d never try to assume a false identity and sneak back in to their blogs. That’s low-down dishonesty and deception in my book, that sock puppetry. I honor their request that I not comment at their sites. It’s the decent and honorable thing to do.
So I’m sorry to say that I’m done with you, Geoff. But not because of your beliefs.
I’m done with you because you’re a sneaky deceptive man, and I don’t have any truck with people like that. There’s lots of honest forthright people to deal with, I don’t have any time for deceivers.
Please know that my main feeling is that I’m saddened by the deception. I always expect the best of both myself and of other folks. And while I’m often not at my own best and neither are the other folks, that’s just life. I expect the best of everyone, and I also expect that we’re all often not at our best.
But your sneakily adopting a false-flag disguise to go bother people who have asked you to leave, for whatever reason?
No, I don’t expect that. That’s a long way for a man to fall, that’s a sad fate.
Ah, well. Onwards …
w.
PS—I gotta say, you got some balls to put on your sock-puppet mask as Foghorn P. Leghorn or whatever the sock-puppet’s name was, and then post this:
That’s absolutely classic. You are using your sock-puppet to cite yourself as a separate authority who agreed with the sock-puppet, and who was offering me “advise and teaching” that I churlishly refused? That’s precious, Geoff, but tragic. You poor man, are you really that starved for acknowledgement? Do be careful, it’s easy to dislocate a shoulder when you’re patting yourself that strenuously on the back.
Here’s a question to consider for the future, Geoff, asked in all seriousness. You are trying to convince people that your ideas are right and worth investigating.
When those people find out that you’ve deceived them, as they have now, are they more or less likely to look favorably on your ideas?
Just askin … the trust of the people is a precious thing, Geoff. It’s hard to earn and easy to lose. Your sock puppetry is putting everything at risk. I’d reconsider … but hey, that’s just me.