Congenital Cyclomania Redux

Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach

Well, I wasn’t going to mention this paper, but it seems to be getting some play in the blogosphere. Our friend Nicola Scafetta is back again, this time with a paper called “Solar and planetary oscillation control on climate change: hind-cast, forecast and a comparison with the CMIP5 GCMs”. He’s posted it up over at Tallbloke’s Talkshop. Since I’m banned over at Tallbloke’s, I thought I’d discuss it here. The paper itself is here, take your Dramamine before jumping on board. Dr. Scafetta has posted here on WUWT several times before, each time with his latest, greatest, new improved model. Here’s how well Scafetta’s even more latester, greatester new model hindcasts, as well as what it predicts, compared with HadCRUT4:

scafetta harmonic variabilityFigure 1. Figure 16A from Scafetta 2013. This shows his harmonic model alone (black), plus his model added to the average of the CMIP5 models following three different future “Representative Concentration Pathways”, or RCPs. The RCPs give various specified future concentrations of greenhouse gases. HadCRUT4 global surface temperature (GST) is in gray.

So far, in each of his previous three posts on WUWT, Dr. Scafetta has said that the Earth’s surface temperature is ruled by a different combination of cycles depending on the post:

First Post: 20 and 60 year cycles. These were supposed to be related to some astronomical cycles which were never made clear, albeit there was much mumbling about Jupiter and Saturn.

Second Post: 9.1, 10-11, 20 and 60 year cycles. Here are the claims made for these cycles:

9.1 years : this was justified as being sort of near to a calculation of (2X+Y)/4, where X and Y are lunar precession cycles,

“10-11″ years: he never said where he got this one, or why it’s so vague.

20 years: supposedly close to an average of the sun’s barycentric velocity period.

60 years: kinda like three times the synodic period of Jupiter/Saturn. Why three times? Why not?

Third Post9.98, 10.9, and 11.86 year cycles. These are claimed to be

9.98 years: slightly different from a long-term average of the spring tidal period of Jupiter and Saturn.

10.9 years: may be related to a quasi 11-year solar cycle … or not.

11.86 years: Jupiter’s sidereal period.

The latest post, however, is simply unbeatable. It has no less than six different cycles, with periods of 9.1, 10.2, 21, 61, 115, and 983 years. I haven’t dared inquire too closely as to the antecedents of those choices, although I do love the “3” in the 983 year cycle. Plus there’s a mystery ingredient, of course.

Seriously, he’s adding together six different cycles. Órale, that’s a lot! Now, each of those cycles has three different parameters that totally define the cycle. These are the period (wavelength), the amplitude (size), and the phase (starting point in time) of the cycle.

This means that not only is Scafetta exercising free choice in the number of cycles that he includes (in this case six). He also has free choice over the three parameters for each cycle (period, amplitude, and phase). That gives him no less than 18 separate tunable parameters.

Just roll that around in your mouth and taste it, “eighteen tunable parameters”. Is there anything that you couldn’t hindcast given 18 different tunable parameters?

Anyhow, if I were handing out awards, I’d certainly give him the first award for having eighteen arbitrary parameters. But then, I’d have to give him another award for his mystery ingredient.

Because of all things, the mystery ingredient in Scafetta’s equation is the average hindcast (and forecast) modeled temperature of the CMIP5 climate models. Plus the mystery ingredient comes with its own amplitude parameter (0.45), along with a hidden parameter for the zero point of the average model temperatures before being multiplied by the amplitude parameter. So that makes twenty different adjustable parameters.

Now, I don’t even know what to say about this method. I’m dumbfounded. He’s starting with the average of the CMIP5 climate models, adjusted by an amplitude parameter and a zeroing parameter. Then he’s figuring the deviations from that adjusted average model result based on his separate 6-cycle, 18-parameter model. The sum of the two is his prediction. I truly lack words to describe that, it’s such an awesome logical jump I can only shake my head in awe at the daring trapeze leaps of faith …

I suppose at this point I need to quote the story again of Freeman Dyson, Enrico Fermi, “Johnny” Von Neumann, and the elephant. Here is Freeman Dyson, with the tale of tragedy:

By the spring of 1953, after heroic efforts, we had plotted theoretical graphs of meson–proton scattering.We joyfully observed that our calculated numbers agreed pretty well with Fermi’s measured numbers. So I made an appointment to meet with Fermi and show him our results. Proudly, I rode the Greyhound bus from Ithaca to Chicago with a package of our theoretical graphs to show to Fermi.

When I arrived in Fermi’s office, I handed the graphs to Fermi, but he hardly glanced at them. He invited me to sit down, and  asked me in a friendly way about the health of my wife and our newborn baby son, now fifty years old. Then he delivered his verdict in a quiet, even voice.

“There are two ways of doing calculations in theoretical physics”, he said. “One way, and this is the way I prefer, is to have a clear physical picture of the process that you are calculating. The other way is to have a precise and self-consistent mathematical formalism. You have neither.”

I was slightly stunned, but ventured to ask him why he did not consider the pseudoscalar meson theory to be a self-consistent mathematical formalism. He replied, “Quantum electrodynamics is a good theory because the forces are weak, and when the formalism is ambiguous we have a clear physical picture to guide us.With the pseudoscalar meson theory there is no physical picture, and the forces are so strong that nothing converges. To reach your calculated results, you had to introduce arbitrary cut-off procedures that are not based either on solid physics or on solid mathematics.”

In desperation I asked Fermi whether he was not impressed by the agreement between our calculated numbers and his measured numbers. He replied, “How many arbitrary parameters did you use for your calculations?” I thought for a moment about our cut-off procedures and said, “Four.” He said, “I remember my friend Johnny von Neumann used to say, with four parameters I can fit an elephant, and with five I can make him wiggle his trunk.”

With that, the conversation was over. I thanked Fermi for his time and trouble, and sadly took the next bus back to Ithaca to tell the bad news to the students.

Given that lesson from Dyson, and bearing in mind that Scafetta is using a total of 20 arbitrary parameters … are we supposed to be surprised that Nicola can make an elephant wiggle his trunk? Heck, with that many parameters, he should be able to make that sucker tap dance and spit pickle juice …

Now, you can expect that if Nicola Scafetta shows up, he will argue that somehow the 20 different parameters are not arbitrary, oh, no, they are fixed by the celestial processes. They will likely put forward the same kind of half-ast-ronomical explanation  they’ve used before—that this one represents (2X+Y)/4, where X and Y are lunar precession cycles, or that another one’s 60 year cycle is kind of near three times the synodic period of Jupiter and Saturn (59.5766 years) and close is good enough, that kind of thing. Or perhaps they’ll make the argument that Fourier analysis shows peaks that are sort of near to their chosen numbers, and that’s all that’s needed.

The reality is, if you give me a period in years, I can soon come up with several astronomical cycles that can be added, subtracted, and divided to give you something very near the period you’ve given me … which proves nothing.

Scafetta has free choice of how many cycles to include, and free choice as to the length, amplitude, and phase of each those cycles. And even if he can show that the length of one of his cycles is EXACTLY equal to some astronomical constant, not just kind of near it, he still has totally free choice of phase and amplitude for that cycle. So to date, he’s the leading contender for the 2013 Johnny Von Neumann award, which is given for the most tunable parameters in any scientific study.

The other award I’d give this paper would be for Scafetta’s magical Figure 11, which I reproduce below in all its original glory.

kepler trigon II

Figure 2. Scafetta’s Figure 11 (click to enlarge) ORIGINAL CAPTION: (Left) Schematic representation of the rise and fall of several civilizations since Neolithic times that well correlates with the 14C radio- nucleotide records used for estimating solar activity (adapted from Eddy’s figures in Refs. [90, 91]). Correlated solar-climate multisecular and millennial patterns are recently confirmed [43, 44, 47]. (Right) Kepler’s Trigon diagram of the great Jupiter and Saturn conjunctions between 1583 to 1763 [89], highlighting 20 year and 60 year astronomical cycles, and a slow millennial rotation. 

First off, does that graphic, Figure 11 in Scafetta’s opus, make you feel better or worse about Dr. Scafetta’s claims? Does it give you that warm fuzzy feeling about his science? And why are Kepler’s features smooched out sideways and his fingers so long? At least let me give the poor fellow back his original physiognomy.

kepler painting

There, that’s better. Next, you need to consider the stepwise changes he shows in “carbon 14”, and the square-wave nature of the advance and retreat of alpine glaciers at the lower left. That in itself was good, I hadn’t realized that the glaciers advanced and retreated in that regular a fashion, or that carbon 14 was unchanged for years before and after each shift in concentration. And I did appreciate that there were no units for any of the four separate graphs on the page, that counted heavily in his favor. But what I awarded him full style points for was the seamless segue from alpine glaciers to the “winter severity index” in the year 1000 … that was a breathtaking leap.

And as you might expect from a man citing Kepler, Scafetta treats scientific information like fine wine—he doesn’t want anything of recent vintage. Apparently on his planet you have to let science mellow for some decades before you bring it out to breathe … and in that regard, I direct your attention to the citation in the bottom center of his Figure 11, “Source: Geophysical Data, J. Biddy J. B. Eddy (USA) 1978″. (Thanks to Nicola for the correction, the print was too small to read.)

Where he stepped up to the big leagues, though, is in the top line in the chart. Click on the chart to enlarge it if you haven’t done so yet, so you can see all the amazing details. The “Sumeric Maximum”, the collapse of Machu Pichu, the “Greek Minimum”, the end of the Maya civilization, the “Pyramid Maximum” … talk about being “Homeric in scope”, he’s even got the “Homeric Minimum”.

Finally, he highlights the “20 year and 60 year astronomical cycles” in Kepler’s chart at the right. In fact, what he calls the “20 year” cycles shown in Kepler’s dates at the right vary from 10 to 30 years according to Kepler’s own figures shown inside the circle, and what he calls the “60 year astronomical cycles” include cycles from 50 to 70 years …

In any case, I’m posting all of this because I just thought folks might like to know of Nicola Scafetta’s latest stunning success. Using a mere six cycles and only twenty tunable parameters plus the average of a bunch of climate models, he has emulated the historical record with pretty darn good accuracy.

And now that he has explained just exactly how to predict the climate into the future, I guess the only mystery left is what he’ll do for an encore performance. Because this most recent paper of his, this one will be very hard to top.

In all seriousness, however, let me make my position clear.

Are there cycles in the climate? Yes, there are cycles. However, they are not regular, clockwork cycles like those of Jupiter and Saturn. Instead, one cycle will appear, and will be around for a while, and then disappear to be replaced by some longer or shorter cycle. It is maddening, frustrating, but that’s the chaotic nature of the beast. The Pacific Decadal Oscillation doesn’t beat like a clock, nor does the El Nino or the Madden-Julian oscillation or any other climate phenomena.

What is the longest cycle that can be detected in a hundred year dataset? My rule of thumb is that even if I have two full cycles, my results are too uncertain to lean on. I want three cycles so I can at least get a sense about the variation. So for a hundred year dataset, any cycle over fifty years in length is a non-starter, and thirty-three years and shorter is what I will start to trust.

Can you successfully hindcast temperatures using other cycles than the ones Scafetta uses? Certainly. He has demonstrated that himself, as this is the fourth combination of arbitrarily chosen cycles that he has used. Note that in each case he has claimed the model was successful. This by no means exhausts the possible cycle combinations that can successfully emulate the historical temperature.

Does Scafetta’s accomplishment mean anything? Sure. It means that with six cycles and no less than twenty tunable parameters, you can do just about anything. Other than that, no. It is meaningless.

Could he actually test his findings? Sure, and I’ve suggested it to him. What you need to do is run the analysis again, but this time using the data from say 1910 to 1959 only. Derive your 20 fitted variables using this data alone.

Then test your 20 fitted variables against the data from 1960 to 2009, and see how the variables pan out.

Then do it the other way around. Train the model on the later data, and see how well it does on the early data. It’s not hard to do. He knows how to do it. But if he has ever done it, I have not seen anywhere that he has reported the results.

How do I know all this? Folks, I can’t tell you how many late nights I’ve spent trying to fit any number and combination of cycles to the historical climate data. I’ve used Fourier analysis and periodicity analysis and machine-learning algorithms and wavelets and stuff I’ve invented myself. Whenever I’ve thought I have something, as soon as it leaves the training data and starts on the out-of-sample data, it starts to diverge from reality. And of course, the divergence increases over time.

But that’s simply the same truth we all know about computer weather forecasting programs—out-of-sample, they don’t do all that well, and quickly become little better than a coin flip.

Finally, even if the cycles fit the data and we ignore the ridiculous number of arbitrary parameters, where is the physical mechanism connecting some (2*X+T)/4 combination of two astronomical cycles, and the climate? As Enrico Fermi pointed out, you need to have either “a clear physical picture of the process that you are calculating” or a precise and self-consistent mathematical formalism”. 

w.

PS—Please don’t write in to say that although Nicola is wrong, you have the proper combination of cycles, based on your special calculations. Also, please don’t try to explain how a cycle of 21 years is really, really similar to the Jupiter-Saturn synodic cycle of 19+ years. I’m not buying cycles of any kind, motorcycles, epicycles, solar cycles, bicycles, circadian cycles, nothing. Sorry. Save them for some other post, they won’t go bad, but please don’t post them here.

Get notified when a new post is published.
Subscribe today!
5 1 vote
Article Rating
461 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
LdB
July 25, 2013 1:43 am

>>>> OPEN CRACKPOT RANDI CHALLENGE <<<<
Ok I have made my very own very much simple version of an astronomical cycle. I am going to even tell you a number of things about the cycle it contains a simple sinewave of amplitude 100 and the sinewave cycles every 100 steps and I will even tell you the waveform starts at (0,0).
To make the job even easier I am going to provide you simple C source code for my astronomical cycle.
Your challenge is create a robust corellation of my waveform over a mere 1 million steps.
Should be simple compared to what you are currently trying to do … so try it.
CODE:
/* The venerable pi to first 50 decimal places from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pi */
#define PI (double) 3.14159265358979323846264338327950288419716939937510
long x, yc, y;
int err;
yc = 0;
for (x = 0; x <= 1000000; x++){
y = sin(PI/50*x) * 100;
err = ((double)rand()/RAND_MAX * 50) – 25;
yc = yc + err;
};
That's it very simple code and here is what an output may look like
http://postimg.org/image/4kfklkyjn/
Now when you fail and you will fail I want you to ponder two things
1.) Why is such a simple sine wave cycle simply not possible to simulate you know a lot of information about the encoded waveform.
2.) How can I fix the situation so I can simulate it.

Clive E. Birkland
July 25, 2013 1:46 am

Willis Eschenbach says:
July 25, 2013 at 1:01 am
Miss the point much? I didn’t say you couldn’t just download the data, Clive. I said I calculated it myself. Some people are not capable of doing those calculations, so they just download the data from JPL … me, I wanted to really understand it.
To arrive at the solar AM, torque and radius and distance values takes a little more than downloading the data. Many have done their own thing in exercises to plot relative positions and orbital data of the planets and Sun, but few have seen the devil in the detail.
Theo inspired Carl Smith to produce his AM graph derived from similar data that you may have been working on. Carl’s graph provided the platform for the next level of understanding.

Kev-in-Uk
July 25, 2013 3:14 am

FWIW
I don’t disagree with Willis’ general sentiment about this kind of work. i.e. there is a lot of curve fitting and tunable parameters to ‘make it work’.
However, I would like to point out that these kind of solar/planetary influences may well be possibly significant and may well be capable of affecting climate. I certainly don’t think it can be dismissed as complete BS.
As an analogy, which I would presume Willis will understand very well, let us consider a boat, steering by magnetic compass, on a very long ‘straight’ track across the ocean. Ignoring the multivariables such as tides, earths mag field variations, currents and on-board magnetic influences – let’s just assume they are all fixed! – we might expect our magnetic course to remain true, Yes?
Ok – now , we know that we can only see a relatively short distance to the horizon, and very little distance down through the sea (by sight, I mean)? So, when we are sailing merrily along, we have no idea if we are passing over a massive iron nodule or other magnetic anomaly in the seabed, or indeed, if some high powered magnetic experiment is being undertaken by a suspicious government warship out of sight over the horizon, Yes? (I know it’s a fanciful notion, but is only for illustration!)
The point being that along our track, if it is affected by these unknown anomalies, which can be of varying power and effect and also, on either side of our track, we will ‘wobble’ along the track due to these influences, instead of steering a straight line.
It matters not how weak these influences might be (they may indeed be undetectable via traditional measurement instruments?) – they WILL have a tiny effect, which as any navigator knows, increases the error the longer you travel. When you add a few of these tiny effects together, their effect will combine and be greater, or may cancel each other out – thereby increasing the degree of ‘wobble’
So, we reach our destination, slightly longer in time, after traveling a ‘longer’ track – and we wonder why – we didn’t see or detect anything, and without GPS or other reference of our track, we didn’t actually ‘know’ we were wobbling at all! And that is kind of mypoint.
This is obviously only a 2D representation, but in space, a 3D representation of gravitational and solar wind, magnetic, effects, etc, will be taking place. Most of which we have neither the knowledge or skill/instruments available to ‘measure’ the effect of.
For this reason, I think it cannot be completely dismissed. We are in the realms of stuff we do not know about – and have not been around long enough to measure!

July 25, 2013 5:56 am

Clive E. Birkland says:
July 25, 2013 at 1:18 am
I have already informed you that you are looking at the wrong paper. His earlier work picked up on the torque extrema and also some esoteric ramblings, but his later work is of better use to science.
In the newer paper he revises the big hand down to 166 years [makes the failed predictions look a bit better], and still rambles about torque and Angular Momentum.
Wollf & Patrone have already provided the mechanism.
Which is tidal and not the Angular Momentum nonsense. Even the Wolff&Patrone ‘mechanism’ does not work in a real star as I have pointed our elsewhere.
To summarize for your erudition: Landscheidt and Sharp’s ‘basic’ idea is unphysical and rejected by W&P, Abreu et al., Shirley, and even by the good Scafetta.
Most of us are not interested
Nicely sums up your anti-science stance, wouldn’t you say?

July 25, 2013 6:30 am

I didn’t get a chance yet to read all of the comments before being compelled to comment. I’m not sure if Dr. Scafetta’s work is right, or wrong. But I do know that as the planets orbit, they change the barycenter of the solar system, and the Sun orbits around this point. This is not pseudoscience, you can calculate the barycenter on a JPL web app. There are times when the barycenter is external to the Sun, and it moves as the planets move (all of those cycles of the Planets astrology junk). This has to make the Sun wobble at least some, and generate tides in Solar plasma. Like I said, not sure it does what Dr. Scafetta thinks, I tried to calculate the G forces on the Sun as it follows the barycenter, not sure I did them right, but the Sun is in constant freefall around a fast moving point.
How much G-Forces does it take to make the Sun wobble? And before you say it doesn’t, we use other stars wobble to find planets orbiting around them at great distances.

LdB
July 25, 2013 6:40 am

@Kev-in-Uk says:
=> However, I would like to point out that these kind of solar/planetary influences may well be possibly significant and may well be capable of affecting climate. I certainly don’t think it can be dismissed as complete BS.
@MiCro says:
But I do know that as the planets orbit, they change the barycenter of the solar system, and the Sun orbits around this point. This is not pseudoscience, you can calculate the barycenter on a JPL web app.
That is correct you can calculate these things but that implies you use the right formula because there is a MASSIVE GOTCHA if you don’t.
I created a crackpot Randi challenge above where I made a simple astral cycle of a sine wave which I am happy to give all the details on its frequency, amplitude, start angle and start point.
The challenge is to fit a curve to my data … it is actually impossible !!!!!!!!
Most of these curve fit guru’s will be scratching their heads trying to work out why they can’t fit such a simple waveform and the answer is the key to there problem.
Look at my crackpot challenge and see how smart you are and why you can’t curve fit it unless I give you some key more data or fix something.
So take the challenge what is the answer .. why are all these astral cycle masters failing to get a fit for any really long length of time.

July 25, 2013 6:49 am

MiCro says:
July 25, 2013 at 6:30 am
This has to make the Sun wobble at least some, and generate tides in Solar plasma.
Since the sun is in free fall [as you note] it does not experience any G-forces and no tides due to the wobble. If you and I walk down the street but on opposite sides, our center of mass move down the street in the middle if the street about halfway between us. If I, all of the sudden, turn to go down a side street, the center of mass also changes it movement drastically, but you, still walking on your side of the street do not feel a thing.

July 25, 2013 6:52 am

I guess I should have read the last 30-40 posts first instead of the the first 30-40 posts….

July 25, 2013 6:58 am

Leif Svalgaard says:
July 25, 2013 at 6:49 am

Since the sun is in free fall [as you note] it does not experience any G-forces and no tides due to the wobble.

Wouldn’t the Sun changing direction be caused by an acceleration being applied to it?

July 25, 2013 7:02 am

MiCro says:
July 25, 2013 at 6:58 am
Wouldn’t the Sun changing direction be caused by an acceleration being applied to it?
An astronaut in orbit around the Earth changes direction all the time and does not feel a thing.

LdB
July 25, 2013 7:18 am

What about you Leif Svalgaard can you work out why you can’t curve fit my sine wave you seem to have a grasp on things.

July 25, 2013 7:26 am

LdB says:
July 25, 2013 at 7:18 am
What about you Leif Svalgaard can you work out why you can’t curve fit my sine wave you seem to have a grasp on things.
I can fit a bunch of sine waves to any finite subset of your ‘data’, so don’t see why what you ask is relevant.

tjfolkerts
July 25, 2013 7:34 am

LdB, we re getting rather off-track. Let me just say that — what ever challenges you may have in calculating orbits — people use historical records of eclipses (back 1000’s of years) to estimate how much the earth has slowed down in it rotation. Yes, they know accurately enough where the moon was way back then to determine that the eclipses would not have been in the right place places if the rotation of the earth were constant (about 11 hours off in 1500 BC).
http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/SEhelp/rotation.html.
Certainly the gravitational interactions of multiple bodies can lead to rather chaotic motions. Comets can and do have large changes in their orbits due to chance close encounters with planets. But planets never have chance close encounters with planet-sized objects. The orbits are settled enough that they only ever undergo very minor changes and are very predictable.
PS the Grav-Sim that you referenced says “It models a set of bodies (point masses) gravitating under Newton’s laws of motion.” — so once again we are NOT dealing with relativity here! They don’t even bother with relativity.

Kev-in-Uk
July 25, 2013 7:47 am

I disagree that the sun doesn’t feel anything just because it is freefall. For a start the universe is expanding, yes? That means that other nearby star systems weak gravitational forces on the earth should be reducing? Logically, the solar system in the past has been pulled and jostled by ‘nearer’ systems – if they are moving further away such influence (no matter how small) is getting less – so perhaps the barycentre is becoming more stable?. Also, what about moving objects such as comets – which may well be too small to influence the sun, but could influence the smaller planets and moons – and these in turn can cause planetary changes, etc.
It’s all speculation, of course, but these little things have a tendency to build up into bigger things – butterfly wings and all that!

July 25, 2013 7:58 am

Kev-in-Uk says:
July 25, 2013 at 7:47 am
For a start the universe is expanding, yes? That means that other nearby star systems weak gravitational forces on the earth should be reducing?
The expansion of the Universe is so weak that it cannot overcome the gravitational and electromagnetic forces keeping the solar system [or even the Galaxy together]. So the solar system [and my waistline] is not following the general expansion of the Universe.

July 25, 2013 7:58 am

Leif Svalgaard says:
July 25, 2013 at 7:02 am

An astronaut in orbit around the Earth changes direction all the time and does not feel a thing.

What’s the lateral acceleration of that astronaut in earth orbit, verses the Sun changing direction around the barycenter?
Freefall by itself isn’t the problem, it’s how fast the direction changes.

July 25, 2013 8:02 am

There are some points I would like to say.
The first point is, that I agree with Dr. Scafatta’s statements and critique here. I read here the same weak arguments regarding my work on the same matter.
The second point is, that my independent work comes to similar climate curve predictions as Dr. Scafetta. Willis Figure 1 shows “Figure 16A from Scafetta 2013. This shows his harmonic model alone (black) .. “. My summation of solar tides from Jupiter and lower moving planets shows that:
http://www.volker-doormann.org/images/solar_tides_1850_2100.gif
The third point is just a point which is related to our two different approaches with different quality in the result. But because neither Dr. Scafetta shows any interest of a discussion nor the authorities of WUWT, it is wasted time to write here arguments again and again and again.
That is a pity, because the mechanism contains interesting correlations between the global temperature, controlled by the solar system and some physics in the Sun. Moreover the mechanism contains a surprising logic between the springtides and the polarity of the solar heat answer, which is not general positive, and last, using the solar tide functions of the objects near the Sun, the time resolution of climate prediction can be increased to month and can be separated from the ocean frequencies:
http://www.volker-doormann.org/images/rss_tlt_6_2013_solart.gif
Thank you
V.

Mark Bofill
July 25, 2013 8:03 am

So the solar system [and my waistline] is not following the general expansion of the Universe.

Darn it Leif, I was pretty sure that was the explanation for my expanding waistline until you said that. :p My wife keeps pushing this nonsense ‘you eat too many donuts’ theory on me…

July 25, 2013 8:07 am

MiCro says:
July 25, 2013 at 7:58 am
Freefall by itself isn’t the problem, it’s how fast the direction changes.
Not at all. The Sun and the astronaut are not feeling any gravitational forces [and hence no acceleration]. To put it a bit more technical: gravity is exactly balanced by the ‘centrifugal [pseudo-] force.

LdB
July 25, 2013 8:31 am


=> LdB, we re getting rather off-track. Let me just say that — what ever challenges you may have in calculating orbits — people use historical records of eclipses (back 1000′s of years) to estimate how much the earth has slowed down in it rotation
I am not off track it is you idiots that can’t even see the problem … I created a simple sine waveform and you can not put a curve fit over it …. THINK HOW DID I DO IT.
As most are to stupid to see the problem I will spell it out you can make any waveform impossible to fit by any normal fitting mathematics by introducing a small non linear compounding error.
I added a small compounding error into 1 dimension the y axis, the problem these guys are facing there errors are actually in 3 dimensions bought back to a 2 dimensional which is the 3D distance between the planets which creates the gravity calc between them.
Your statement is above is correct the historical guys fixed errors in the past by observation … get it you have to adjust for the compounding error.
Here is a website that is worth you reading he has lots of funny stories about what happens if you don’t fix things up
http://www.projectpluto.com/relativi.htm
He even gives you some ways to fix Newtonian and Kepler equations up so they are sort of better.
If you bothered to actually read the Grav-Sim website on how the simulation works you will see they actually do the same sort of things as the guy above and have different methods you can choose.
The problem is so simple and yet all the pseudoscience experts on astrological cycles can’t even see what is one of the most basic science problems you can have …. compounding chaotic system error.
This is the problem that Skafetta and every other nutcase that is trying to fit curves is facing it is impossible unless you remove the compounding systematic error.
As I have already commented above why do you think the GPS system on earth requires corrections for GR/SR it will chaotically go out by 10km per day if you don’t and no they can’t curve fit and approximate that either.
GOT IT … NOT HARD … IT’S CALLED BASIC SCIENCE.

Kev-in-Uk
July 25, 2013 8:39 am

Leif Svalgaard says:
July 25, 2013 at 8:07 am
Not at all. The Sun and the astronaut are not feeling any gravitational forces [and hence no acceleration]. To put it a bit more technical: gravity is exactly balanced by the ‘centrifugal [pseudo-] force.
an astronaut and satellites are under weak gravitational force, just cos he doesn’t feel it, doesn’t mean its not there. as you say, it is balanced against the rotational force – but gravity is still ‘there’ !

July 25, 2013 8:47 am

Leif Svalgaard says:
July 25, 2013 at 8:07 am

Not at all. The Sun and the astronaut are not feeling any gravitational forces [and hence no acceleration]. To put it a bit more technical: gravity is exactly balanced by the ‘centrifugal [pseudo-] force.

As I mentioned I started to try and calculate the accelerations on the Sun, didn’t get all that far.
But look at this image on the path from 1988-1994, as the Sun loops to the center, changes direction and heads back out, it feels no acceleration?

July 25, 2013 9:02 am

Kev-in-Uk says:
July 25, 2013 at 8:39 am
but gravity is still ‘there’
Actually not [Einsteins great insight – http://www.einstein-online.info/spotlights/equivalence_principle ], but that is not the point, which is that the astronaut [and the Sun] does not feel any gravitational force when in free fall.
MiCro says:
July 25, 2013 at 8:47 am
as the Sun loops to the center, changes direction and heads back out, it feels no acceleration?
That’s right. Just as the astronaut looping around the Earth.

LdB
July 25, 2013 9:07 am


By the way tj if you really want to see the problem there is a simple way
Get Mr Skaffeta to give you the distance between his planets and the gravity forces between them on a date say 50 years from now.
Then use Grav-Sim or JPL to actually get the distance between the planets and the correct gravity forces … how much do you want to bet me they are out by truely massive amounts.
Do you see the problem now?
The whole astrological cycle graph is complete fantasy, you do realise its not actually measured they calculate it using Newtonian & Kepler maths … LOL. It would be correct at one point in time the start date because none of them bother to actually check from then on.
Even if they are right about the effect trying to curve fit a fantasy graph to a climate record of earth …. priceless.

tjfolkerts
July 25, 2013 9:15 am

LdB, I think we are talking about two (and a half) different problems.
1) Predicting the actual orbits of the planets, moons, etc
1b) Predicting the orbits of smaller objects like comets, satellites, etc
2) Fitting some fairly chaotic pattern (temperature) with a combination of sinusoidal waves (that might or might not be related to the orbits of planets).
The orbits of planets are fairly easy to calculate with fairly high precision with simple Newtonian mechanics, since 1) they have fairly circular orbits and 2) they never pass close to other objects of similar mass . Comets are much more problematic: the high eccentricity makes relatively a bit more important, and they can and do pass near planets that can deflect them from their previous orbit. The fact that Halley could predict the return of a comet using only a few observations and paper & pen suggests that pretty good calculations are fairly easy to do. (I note that the “test object” in the most recent link you gave is for an object called(137924) 2000 BD19 — “an asteroid with the smallest perihelion of any numbered asteroid (0.092 AU—38% of Mercury’s orbital radius). With its high eccentricity, not only does 2000 BD19 get very close to the Sun, but it also travels relatively far away from it. (wikipedia)” This sort of high-eccentricity, sun-grazing object is one where relativity would make a larger-than-average contribution.
Your “OPEN CRACKPOT RANDI CHALLENGE” actually has (almost) nothing to do with the orbits of planets. It is simply an example of why the original paper is questionable — because fitting a curve to highly variable (potentially chaotic) data is rarely easy nor is it often very illuminating as the the underlying causes.

1 11 12 13 14 15 19