Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
Well, I wasn’t going to mention this paper, but it seems to be getting some play in the blogosphere. Our friend Nicola Scafetta is back again, this time with a paper called “Solar and planetary oscillation control on climate change: hind-cast, forecast and a comparison with the CMIP5 GCMs”. He’s posted it up over at Tallbloke’s Talkshop. Since I’m banned over at Tallbloke’s, I thought I’d discuss it here. The paper itself is here, take your Dramamine before jumping on board. Dr. Scafetta has posted here on WUWT several times before, each time with his latest, greatest, new improved model. Here’s how well Scafetta’s even more latester, greatester new model hindcasts, as well as what it predicts, compared with HadCRUT4:
Figure 1. Figure 16A from Scafetta 2013. This shows his harmonic model alone (black), plus his model added to the average of the CMIP5 models following three different future “Representative Concentration Pathways”, or RCPs. The RCPs give various specified future concentrations of greenhouse gases. HadCRUT4 global surface temperature (GST) is in gray.
So far, in each of his previous three posts on WUWT, Dr. Scafetta has said that the Earth’s surface temperature is ruled by a different combination of cycles depending on the post:
First Post: 20 and 60 year cycles. These were supposed to be related to some astronomical cycles which were never made clear, albeit there was much mumbling about Jupiter and Saturn.
Second Post: 9.1, 10-11, 20 and 60 year cycles. Here are the claims made for these cycles:
9.1 years : this was justified as being sort of near to a calculation of (2X+Y)/4, where X and Y are lunar precession cycles,
“10-11″ years: he never said where he got this one, or why it’s so vague.
20 years: supposedly close to an average of the sun’s barycentric velocity period.
60 years: kinda like three times the synodic period of Jupiter/Saturn. Why three times? Why not?
Third Post: 9.98, 10.9, and 11.86 year cycles. These are claimed to be
9.98 years: slightly different from a long-term average of the spring tidal period of Jupiter and Saturn.
10.9 years: may be related to a quasi 11-year solar cycle … or not.
11.86 years: Jupiter’s sidereal period.
The latest post, however, is simply unbeatable. It has no less than six different cycles, with periods of 9.1, 10.2, 21, 61, 115, and 983 years. I haven’t dared inquire too closely as to the antecedents of those choices, although I do love the “3” in the 983 year cycle. Plus there’s a mystery ingredient, of course.
Seriously, he’s adding together six different cycles. Órale, that’s a lot! Now, each of those cycles has three different parameters that totally define the cycle. These are the period (wavelength), the amplitude (size), and the phase (starting point in time) of the cycle.
This means that not only is Scafetta exercising free choice in the number of cycles that he includes (in this case six). He also has free choice over the three parameters for each cycle (period, amplitude, and phase). That gives him no less than 18 separate tunable parameters.
Just roll that around in your mouth and taste it, “eighteen tunable parameters”. Is there anything that you couldn’t hindcast given 18 different tunable parameters?
Anyhow, if I were handing out awards, I’d certainly give him the first award for having eighteen arbitrary parameters. But then, I’d have to give him another award for his mystery ingredient.
Because of all things, the mystery ingredient in Scafetta’s equation is the average hindcast (and forecast) modeled temperature of the CMIP5 climate models. Plus the mystery ingredient comes with its own amplitude parameter (0.45), along with a hidden parameter for the zero point of the average model temperatures before being multiplied by the amplitude parameter. So that makes twenty different adjustable parameters.
Now, I don’t even know what to say about this method. I’m dumbfounded. He’s starting with the average of the CMIP5 climate models, adjusted by an amplitude parameter and a zeroing parameter. Then he’s figuring the deviations from that adjusted average model result based on his separate 6-cycle, 18-parameter model. The sum of the two is his prediction. I truly lack words to describe that, it’s such an awesome logical jump I can only shake my head in awe at the daring trapeze leaps of faith …
I suppose at this point I need to quote the story again of Freeman Dyson, Enrico Fermi, “Johnny” Von Neumann, and the elephant. Here is Freeman Dyson, with the tale of tragedy:
By the spring of 1953, after heroic efforts, we had plotted theoretical graphs of meson–proton scattering.We joyfully observed that our calculated numbers agreed pretty well with Fermi’s measured numbers. So I made an appointment to meet with Fermi and show him our results. Proudly, I rode the Greyhound bus from Ithaca to Chicago with a package of our theoretical graphs to show to Fermi.
When I arrived in Fermi’s office, I handed the graphs to Fermi, but he hardly glanced at them. He invited me to sit down, and asked me in a friendly way about the health of my wife and our newborn baby son, now fifty years old. Then he delivered his verdict in a quiet, even voice.
“There are two ways of doing calculations in theoretical physics”, he said. “One way, and this is the way I prefer, is to have a clear physical picture of the process that you are calculating. The other way is to have a precise and self-consistent mathematical formalism. You have neither.”
I was slightly stunned, but ventured to ask him why he did not consider the pseudoscalar meson theory to be a self-consistent mathematical formalism. He replied, “Quantum electrodynamics is a good theory because the forces are weak, and when the formalism is ambiguous we have a clear physical picture to guide us.With the pseudoscalar meson theory there is no physical picture, and the forces are so strong that nothing converges. To reach your calculated results, you had to introduce arbitrary cut-off procedures that are not based either on solid physics or on solid mathematics.”
In desperation I asked Fermi whether he was not impressed by the agreement between our calculated numbers and his measured numbers. He replied, “How many arbitrary parameters did you use for your calculations?” I thought for a moment about our cut-off procedures and said, “Four.” He said, “I remember my friend Johnny von Neumann used to say, with four parameters I can fit an elephant, and with five I can make him wiggle his trunk.”
With that, the conversation was over. I thanked Fermi for his time and trouble, and sadly took the next bus back to Ithaca to tell the bad news to the students.
Given that lesson from Dyson, and bearing in mind that Scafetta is using a total of 20 arbitrary parameters … are we supposed to be surprised that Nicola can make an elephant wiggle his trunk? Heck, with that many parameters, he should be able to make that sucker tap dance and spit pickle juice …
Now, you can expect that if Nicola Scafetta shows up, he will argue that somehow the 20 different parameters are not arbitrary, oh, no, they are fixed by the celestial processes. They will likely put forward the same kind of half-ast-ronomical explanation they’ve used before—that this one represents (2X+Y)/4, where X and Y are lunar precession cycles, or that another one’s 60 year cycle is kind of near three times the synodic period of Jupiter and Saturn (59.5766 years) and close is good enough, that kind of thing. Or perhaps they’ll make the argument that Fourier analysis shows peaks that are sort of near to their chosen numbers, and that’s all that’s needed.
The reality is, if you give me a period in years, I can soon come up with several astronomical cycles that can be added, subtracted, and divided to give you something very near the period you’ve given me … which proves nothing.
Scafetta has free choice of how many cycles to include, and free choice as to the length, amplitude, and phase of each those cycles. And even if he can show that the length of one of his cycles is EXACTLY equal to some astronomical constant, not just kind of near it, he still has totally free choice of phase and amplitude for that cycle. So to date, he’s the leading contender for the 2013 Johnny Von Neumann award, which is given for the most tunable parameters in any scientific study.
The other award I’d give this paper would be for Scafetta’s magical Figure 11, which I reproduce below in all its original glory.
Figure 2. Scafetta’s Figure 11 (click to enlarge) ORIGINAL CAPTION: (Left) Schematic representation of the rise and fall of several civilizations since Neolithic times that well correlates with the 14C radio- nucleotide records used for estimating solar activity (adapted from Eddy’s figures in Refs. [90, 91]). Correlated solar-climate multisecular and millennial patterns are recently confirmed [43, 44, 47]. (Right) Kepler’s Trigon diagram of the great Jupiter and Saturn conjunctions between 1583 to 1763 [89], highlighting 20 year and 60 year astronomical cycles, and a slow millennial rotation.
First off, does that graphic, Figure 11 in Scafetta’s opus, make you feel better or worse about Dr. Scafetta’s claims? Does it give you that warm fuzzy feeling about his science? And why are Kepler’s features smooched out sideways and his fingers so long? At least let me give the poor fellow back his original physiognomy.
There, that’s better. Next, you need to consider the stepwise changes he shows in “carbon 14”, and the square-wave nature of the advance and retreat of alpine glaciers at the lower left. That in itself was good, I hadn’t realized that the glaciers advanced and retreated in that regular a fashion, or that carbon 14 was unchanged for years before and after each shift in concentration. And I did appreciate that there were no units for any of the four separate graphs on the page, that counted heavily in his favor. But what I awarded him full style points for was the seamless segue from alpine glaciers to the “winter severity index” in the year 1000 … that was a breathtaking leap.
And as you might expect from a man citing Kepler, Scafetta treats scientific information like fine wine—he doesn’t want anything of recent vintage. Apparently on his planet you have to let science mellow for some decades before you bring it out to breathe … and in that regard, I direct your attention to the citation in the bottom center of his Figure 11, “Source: Geophysical Data, J. Biddy J. B. Eddy (USA) 1978″. (Thanks to Nicola for the correction, the print was too small to read.)
Where he stepped up to the big leagues, though, is in the top line in the chart. Click on the chart to enlarge it if you haven’t done so yet, so you can see all the amazing details. The “Sumeric Maximum”, the collapse of Machu Pichu, the “Greek Minimum”, the end of the Maya civilization, the “Pyramid Maximum” … talk about being “Homeric in scope”, he’s even got the “Homeric Minimum”.
Finally, he highlights the “20 year and 60 year astronomical cycles” in Kepler’s chart at the right. In fact, what he calls the “20 year” cycles shown in Kepler’s dates at the right vary from 10 to 30 years according to Kepler’s own figures shown inside the circle, and what he calls the “60 year astronomical cycles” include cycles from 50 to 70 years …
In any case, I’m posting all of this because I just thought folks might like to know of Nicola Scafetta’s latest stunning success. Using a mere six cycles and only twenty tunable parameters plus the average of a bunch of climate models, he has emulated the historical record with pretty darn good accuracy.
…
And now that he has explained just exactly how to predict the climate into the future, I guess the only mystery left is what he’ll do for an encore performance. Because this most recent paper of his, this one will be very hard to top.
In all seriousness, however, let me make my position clear.
Are there cycles in the climate? Yes, there are cycles. However, they are not regular, clockwork cycles like those of Jupiter and Saturn. Instead, one cycle will appear, and will be around for a while, and then disappear to be replaced by some longer or shorter cycle. It is maddening, frustrating, but that’s the chaotic nature of the beast. The Pacific Decadal Oscillation doesn’t beat like a clock, nor does the El Nino or the Madden-Julian oscillation or any other climate phenomena.
What is the longest cycle that can be detected in a hundred year dataset? My rule of thumb is that even if I have two full cycles, my results are too uncertain to lean on. I want three cycles so I can at least get a sense about the variation. So for a hundred year dataset, any cycle over fifty years in length is a non-starter, and thirty-three years and shorter is what I will start to trust.
Can you successfully hindcast temperatures using other cycles than the ones Scafetta uses? Certainly. He has demonstrated that himself, as this is the fourth combination of arbitrarily chosen cycles that he has used. Note that in each case he has claimed the model was successful. This by no means exhausts the possible cycle combinations that can successfully emulate the historical temperature.
Does Scafetta’s accomplishment mean anything? Sure. It means that with six cycles and no less than twenty tunable parameters, you can do just about anything. Other than that, no. It is meaningless.
Could he actually test his findings? Sure, and I’ve suggested it to him. What you need to do is run the analysis again, but this time using the data from say 1910 to 1959 only. Derive your 20 fitted variables using this data alone.
Then test your 20 fitted variables against the data from 1960 to 2009, and see how the variables pan out.
Then do it the other way around. Train the model on the later data, and see how well it does on the early data. It’s not hard to do. He knows how to do it. But if he has ever done it, I have not seen anywhere that he has reported the results.
How do I know all this? Folks, I can’t tell you how many late nights I’ve spent trying to fit any number and combination of cycles to the historical climate data. I’ve used Fourier analysis and periodicity analysis and machine-learning algorithms and wavelets and stuff I’ve invented myself. Whenever I’ve thought I have something, as soon as it leaves the training data and starts on the out-of-sample data, it starts to diverge from reality. And of course, the divergence increases over time.
But that’s simply the same truth we all know about computer weather forecasting programs—out-of-sample, they don’t do all that well, and quickly become little better than a coin flip.
Finally, even if the cycles fit the data and we ignore the ridiculous number of arbitrary parameters, where is the physical mechanism connecting some (2*X+T)/4 combination of two astronomical cycles, and the climate? As Enrico Fermi pointed out, you need to have either “a clear physical picture of the process that you are calculating” or “a precise and self-consistent mathematical formalism”.
w.
PS—Please don’t write in to say that although Nicola is wrong, you have the proper combination of cycles, based on your special calculations. Also, please don’t try to explain how a cycle of 21 years is really, really similar to the Jupiter-Saturn synodic cycle of 19+ years. I’m not buying cycles of any kind, motorcycles, epicycles, solar cycles, bicycles, circadian cycles, nothing. Sorry. Save them for some other post, they won’t go bad, but please don’t post them here.
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As Leif noted somewhere above, cyclomania seems an incurable affliction; this is a very astute observation. Too bad for the victims though.
dbstealey says:
July 24, 2013 at 5:59 pm
Science demands sufficient knowledge of the subject before peer review can be performed. Journal editors perform this task in their selection criteria and do not employ reviewers from unassociated fields. This is how peer review works.
I and Willis might be published in journals, but we would not be asked to review in a field beyond our expertize.
Willis is not qualified to review papers concerning solar/planetary science.
Clive E. Birkland says:
July 24, 2013 at 5:25 pm
Give me some detail on your knowledge, what major concept does Theo use to predict grand minima??
The dear Theo makes the observation that a big hand is 180 years and that half a big hand is 90 years. With that in hand, so to speak, he says “Forecasting is easy. The next minimum is expected about 2007, and the next peak about 2021. Consequently, the observation of golden-section points within cycles seems to be essential” Furthermore “The vertical dotted line marks the starting phase (1933) of a big hand. This dynamically fundamental period coincided with establishment of Stalin’s and Hitler’s dictatorship” which seems to be important as well. By going forward to the next minimum in the 90-year sunspot cycle, half of a “big hand” cycle of 180 years, is expected about the year 2026. So an essential feature is, as he says, that ‘Forecasting is easy’, just count forward half a big hand from the rise of Hitler.
If you feel that Theo did not explain himself fully, feel free to add supplementary detail as far as you know any.
Clive E. Birkland says:
July 24, 2013 at 6:16 pm
Science demands sufficient knowledge of the subject before peer review can be performed. Journal editors perform this task in their selection criteria and do not employ reviewers from unassociated fields. This is how peer review works.
we would not be asked to review in a field beyond our expertize.
Willis is not qualified to review papers concerning solar/planetary science.
I am asked by Journal editors to review papers concerning solar/planetary science several times each month, including some of Scafetta’s. I don’t know if Geof has submitted any such papers and where [if he did]. Perhaps you could enlighten us on this point.
Leif Svalgaard says:
July 24, 2013 at 6:22 pm
If productive scholars such as yourself are put upon twice a week or more to review papers, then I fear that peer review may be interfering with the practice of science. Maybe the world needs fewer but better papers. Regrettably the prime imperative to publish or perish vitiates this ideal situation.
@ur momisugly milodonharlani
We established up thread that Milankovitch cycles are indeed climate drivers, Willis is talking about the smaller variations.
Somewhere up the thread Willis says :
“Now, it’s obvious that Scafetta’s parameters are not astronomically based, other than in the way a Hollywood movie is “based on a true story”, which is to say not at all. If they were, he’d use 59.5766 years for his cycle, not 60 OR 61 as he’s done”
I would not be surprised if constraining one parameter to be exactly 59.5766 and then re-optimizing all the others, would produce a fit just as good as the existing one. Then it would of course be “proof” that Jupiter/Saturn caused the effects.
Another possible test, apart from choosing different training sets as has been mentioned, would be to use different parts of the globe. Scafetta has parameterized his theory against global data (some of which is modelled rather than being actual data) but, since the planetary motions are an external perturbation, if any effects exist they must be detectable at every point i.e.in local data as well as global. So, why not try this – take two long series of temperature records from different parts of the globe, for example North America and Europe, carry out the parametrization for one of them, and see if it fits the other. If it does, they may be something in the idea, but if it does not then the whole thing is garbage.
Nicola Scafetta says:
July 24, 2013 at 10:26 am
That’s great news, Nicola. However, I read your paper, and I didn’t see such links. So I’m sure you won’t mind providing
1. A link, not to the paper describing the data, but to the actual data that you used.
2. A link, not to the paper describing the computer code, but to the actual computer code that you used.
Note that to judge your work, we need to see not only the computer code that uses your twenty chosen parameters to produce the results.
We also need to see the computer code by which you assigned values to those various parameters of each cycle. That is to say, how did you select the period, the phase, and the amplitude for each of your six different cycles?
I look forward to your links. To clarify, we need three links—one to the dataset(s) you used, one to the computer code that established the value of your parameters, and one to the computer code that used those parameters to create your published results. PLEASE don’t give me links to papers you’ve written. That’s not what’s needed to understand and replicate your work. We need the data and the computer code.
Nicola, you are free to either provide those links or not. But please, don’t say “Read my papers” again. I’ve read them. I’m not impressed. I know that Leif has read them. He’s not impressed. You saying “read my papers” to me for the fifty-fifth time is not impressive. You telling me to learn about the tides is not impressive. Put up or shut up.
If you want to impress anyone, if you want to have any credibility here on WUWT, provide the three links.
On the other hand, if you want to wave your hands and make new claims and excuses, well, I can’t stop you.
Your choice,
w.
milodonharlani says:
July 24, 2013 at 6:34 pm
If productive scholars such as yourself are put upon twice a week or more to review papers, More like once a week.
peer review may be interfering with the practice of science.
Many papers are easily dealt with. A few requires more in-depth analysis, and there is a benefit to have to articulate a review. The reviewer also learns from it.
Maybe the world needs fewer but better papers. Regrettably the prime imperative to publish or perish vitiates this ideal situation.
One major paper per first author per year would seem a good rate. Unfortunately, there is a growing tendency to have very many authors, many of which only made a marginal [if any] contribution. In a few cases that is justified, especially papers that report on the results of experiments that are team works of hundreds of scientists, but most often it is not. I have seen papers that contradict each other, but where the same author appears in both papers somewhere down the list of authors.
Leif Svalgaard says:
July 24, 2013 at 6:17 pm
If you feel that Theo did not explain himself fully, feel free to add supplementary detail as far as you know any.
There are better papers that fully explain the detail. That you nor Willis are not aware of the basic principles or method attests to your combined knowledge.
In simple terms Theo used solar torque measurements to predict grand minima. This torque is a product of the solar orbit about the SSB, the 4 outer planets control the orbit path and torque.
Theo noticed during past grand minima that torque extreme (very low values of torque) occurred and indeed grouped together around the time of past grand minima. This phenomenon is also known as the “zero crossing” and occurs when the path of the Sun travels close to the SSB and can only happen when Neptune, Uranus and Saturn are together and opposing Jupiter.
Theo incorrectly identified the wrong planetary alignment that is associated with grand minmia, but he was close. We now know the exact alignment that corresponds with all grand minima throughout the Holocene which happens to be occurring now.
Of interest to those looking for exact reproducing cycles, you will not find them. The alignments required to alter the solar path change every cycle, each cycle (N/U conjunction) can have 2-4 alignments of varying strength, thus there is no distinct repeating cycle that will show in Fourier type analysis, but weaker cycles (204 etc) show up purely because of the frequency of certain groups of possible alignments that might be more common. This is what Abreu, Steinhilber, McCraken and Beer etc are picking up from their Holocene data.
Nicola’s deals with grand minima, but is more known for his 60 year cycle that appears to correlate with ocean cycles such as the PDO.
If you were informed you might take this data more seriously, many now are indeed looking at this data in this new emerging field. You can continue to play blind freddy but will risk being left on the scrap heap of solar science.
Clive E. Birkland says:
July 24, 2013 at 8:03 pm
In simple terms Theo used solar torque measurements to predict grand minima.
There are no measurements of such torque. I invite you to point out where in Theo’s paper http://bourabai.narod.ru/landscheidt/golden.htm he uses measured solar torque [should be planetary torques if anything]. We have in the past here at WUWT discussed those unphysical assertions [for example the postulated exchanges of Angular Momentum] several times and found them severely wanting.
Leif Svalgaard says:
July 24, 2013 at 8:01 pm
The number of authors per paper in Nature or Science over the past 50 years or century or since 1869 or 1880 might be instructive. No doubt responsible review can be educational, as is writing or preparing a lecture.
milodonharlani says:
July 24, 2013 at 8:21 pm
The number of authors per paper in Nature or Science over the past 50 years … might be instructive.
http://www.nature.com/nature/history/full/nature06243.html
@Anthony
=> REPLY: Dr. Scaffetta, this is a simple request, one I make often of others. Where is your SI (supplemental info) for the paper that contains your data and worksheets. Things like Excel spreadsheets and databases and formulae? Surely such things exist. If you can’t or won’t produce those things to allow independent replication, then what you have done is not science, but simply opinion. – Anthony
You already know the answer as well as I do Anthony he can’t of done that or else he would have already realized that what he is trying to do is impossible.
Nicola Scafetta please please go and read a very basic scientific detailing of why we have to include the use of relativity in the earth GPS system … if you do nothing else do that one thing.
We can’t doctor or fudge the position of the satellite in that system and they really aren’t even moving that much relative to us
If GR/SR effects were not properly taken into account, a navigational fix based on the GPS constellation would be false after only 2 minutes, and errors in global positions would continue to accumulate at a rate of about 10 kilometers each day.
Your assumption of your work is based on a correlation to orbital effects that are millions of kilometers longer than the GPS system and with many more bodies.
Please tell me you are sort of grasping why the errors quickly compounds and I don’t care how many parameters you add in even if you are correct in your original assumption the longer you try and extend the timeframe the worse the error gets.
If you look at the robot car problem I gave to Willis above you will rather quickly be able to work out there is a sine wave implicit in the data but you can never predict the behavior of the car even knowing that I encoded a sine wave in the car movement.
Surely you can see why no matter what point you align the sinewave to the error will compound out from that point both hindcasting and forecasting.
None of this is rocket science you will be doing your model from here till the end of time and you will never match the prediction for more than a brief time.
Your problem is the errors in your system compound and they compound much quicker than you could ever believe and half the idiot comments on here didn’t even realize that SR alone would bring this approach to it’s knees.
For the love of all things science go and look at the GPS system and see why your approach is doomed to failure even if your idea that planetary cycles are involved.
You have no option but to correct for SR/GR for your analysis to work.
Seriously at a science level this is not hard most first year physics students get it you are wasting your time with the way you are trying to approach the problem take a big hint from the hard sciences who do this properly.
Clive E. Birkland says:
July 24, 2013 at 5:25 pm
I used to correspond with Ted Landschiedt, I never saw him sign his emails “Theo”. I corresponded with him because I was trying to understand his method. However, despite his trying to explain it to me, and me trying to understand it, I could never grab hold of the details. I ended up much like Leif above, who described the Landscheidt method thusly:
However, in the process I did my own extensive investigation of the barycentric movement of the sun, including writing a spreadsheet to give the sun’s 3-D location w.r.t. the center of mass of the solar system. And I can assure you, I learned a lot in the doing of that nice piece of analysis.
Now, it’s possible you have done something comparably detailed and complex with respect to investigating and trying to understand barycentric movement, I don’t know.
What I don’t understand, however, is why my knowledge of either Ted’s methods (which is good but obviously incomplete), or of the barycentric movement of the sun, has anything to do with Scafetta’s twenty arbitrary parameters.
Regards,
w.
PS—If you think a deep understanding of Ted Landsheidt’s work is “basic stuff that anyone criticizing planetary theory should be totally aware of”, you have a huge misconception of Ted’s importance in the larger world. You could get a PhD in planetary theory and never hear his name at all.
Nor has anyone, myself included, been able to take his work and make any advances on it … what has your contribution to Ted’s work been, for example?
So Ted’s work remains a tantalizing, fascinating, and poorly understood backwater of science. Might turn into something someday, and you’re welcome to try …
But judging people’s knowledge on the basis of what they know of Ted Landscheidt’s methods, though, that’s just bizarre.
PPS—FWIW, Ted’s theory, reduced to its simplest terms, was that the level of activity of the sun depends on the rate of change of angular momentum of the sun as it orbits the barycenter (center of mass of the solar system). He contended (and I don’t know if it’s true) that the total momentum of the sun had to stay constant, and that it was composed of translational momentum PLUS rotational momentum of the sun about its own center of mass PLUS rotational momentum of the sun around the barycenter. His claim was that as one of those went down the others had to go up. The resulting change in the sun’s rotational speed induced turmoil and turbulence in the sun as it sped up and slowed down.
I always questioned that explanation, because it seemed to me that while the total momentum of the solar system is conserved, the momentum of any individual body seems like it could change radically. Consider the “slingshot” maneuver as an example. The planetary body being “slung” ends up with more momentum … but the “slinging” planet ends up with less.
AT LEAST that’s how I understood Ted’s explanation, although that was a decade ago now … but like I said, I got to the point where I could calculate all the barycentric quantities ab initio, but I could never understand how Ted connected that to the climate.
And if I don’t pass the Official Birkland Planetary Theory Knowledge Test, well … sue me. How many climate scientists do you know who have written their own spreadsheet to calculate barycentric motion? To do that you have to be able to calculate the location of every planet at a given instant. Does your knowledge of “planetary theory” allow you to do that?
w.
Steve Fitzpatrick says:
July 24, 2013 at 6:11 pm
Thanks, Steve. I disagree. At one point in my life I spent untold hours chasing cycles, using Fourier analysis, and periodicity analysis, and machine learning, and bizarre methods I invented. I was as much of a cyclomaniac as Scafetta.
I started questioning the digging when I realized it was a dry hole. There is no large, obvious, or evident effect of solar variations on climate. Even Herschel’s vaunted claim about the effect of sunspots on wheat prices doesn’t hold up with more data. There may be subtle effects, but if so they are rarely strong enough to emerge from the noise.
In fact, my inability to find any such correlations was one of the things that started me down the path to noticing that “it’s the thermostat, stupid”.
I quit digging when the implications of Fourier’s work finally caught up with me, some years too late. Fourier showed that ANY arbitrary curve can be represented as the sum of a number of sine waves.
That’s when it stopped impressing me when someone said “I can model the climate using a sum of sine waves”. So when Scafetta comes in, proudly proclaiming that he can model the historical mean surface temperature as the sum of some sine waves … so what? Fourier proved that’s true for any given curve, temperature or not.
The problem that I always found with my analyses is that it’s easy to decompose say a monthly observational dataset of length X into sine waves.
But if someone thinks those same identical sine waves will predict the succeeding X months of observational dataset, more fool them. That’s why Scafetta won’t ever take Joe Born’s test. No way his system can pass it. If cycles actually could predict the climate, all we’d need is a simple Fourier analysis.
So I quit chasing the elusive cycles, for the obvious reason. There’s an old joke that goes, what’s the difference between a rat running a maze, and a cyclomaniac running a maze?
…
A rat stops running when you remove the cheese, but a cyclomaniac just adds one more cycle to his equation and keeps going …
So I voted with the rats, and deserted the sinking ship. However, like I said, I’d love to be proven wrong on this particular question, I’d love to see someone demonstrate a strong sun-climate connection of any kind … it just hasn’t happened yet.
w.
@tjfolkerts:
LdB says: “You are completely wrong the induced error is completely chaotic it adds up every second it becomes massive very quickly.”
If that were true, then predictions of planetary motion would be impossible. Quite to the contrary, the motions are quite predictable.
NO THEY ARE NOT PREDICTABLE and if you don’t know that then you already have a problem with science.
They are semi predictable to you standing on earth looking at them in sky because you cant see the distance changes between you and it. When it appears to have the same position in the sky it will actually be at a totally different distance than last time.
Even that doesn’t hold together the planets moved over time as greek astronomers noted
read:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apsidal_precession
Note:
An apsidal precession of the planet Mercury was noted by Urbain Le Verrier in the mid-19th century and accounted for by Einstein’s theory of general relativity. To first approximation, this theory adds a central force that varies as the inverse fourth power of the distance.
Tracking all the movements of the planets correctly if you were flying a spaceship is a massive undertaking we have lots of shortcuts we use it has a whole language of its own
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_mechanics
This is generally what we do
=> perturbations cause the orbital elements to change over time. Hence, we write the position element as x_0(t) and the velocity element as v_0(t), indicating that they vary with time. The technique to compute the effect of perturbations becomes one of finding expressions, either exact or approximate, for the functions x_0(t) and v_0(t). earth’s oblateness results in an unsymmetrical gravity potential.
If you took off up into space and didn’t have waypoints along the way which you have approximated correctly you would become hopelessly lost in space (ask NASA) they have to have fallbacks for that situation … in the movie Apollo 13 they showed you the problem it was just extremely lucky they could see the target … EARTH.
One other simple reason to distrust this method — the quadratic fit done originally to de-trend the data. This fit will necessarily become more and more inaccurate when looking farther back and farther ahead, such this function will go to infinity as time goes farther ahead or behind.
One obvious alternative would be to de-trend using some really long-period sinusoidal wave instead. Of course, that simply trades one 3-parameter fit for another 3-parameter fit for the initial de-trending.
(PS I’ll have some of my own data analysis coming soon.)
Willis Eschenbach says:
July 24, 2013 at 9:41 pm
Now, it’s possible you have done something comparably detailed and complex with respect to investigating and trying to understand barycentric movement, I don’t know.
This is not difficult, the respective data can be downloaded from JPL and a standard formula applied.
PS—If you think a deep understanding of Ted Landsheidt’s work is “basic stuff that anyone criticizing planetary theory should be totally aware of”, you have a huge misconception of Ted’s importance in the larger world. You could get a PhD in planetary theory and never hear his name at all.
This is simply untrue, the majority of planetary papers will have Landcsheidt referenced.
Nor has anyone, myself included, been able to take his work and make any advances on it … what has your contribution to Ted’s work been, for example?
Those that study in the field do understand, that is the point. You failed to take it to a level where the light bulb came on. Geoff Sharp has led the way in furthering Landscheidt’s work which I approve of and study. There are others now working in his footsteps because he uncovered Landscheidt’s mistake and further tuned the theory.
You have tried to understand the mechanics of the theory before understanding the basics of why he was a pioneer in this area of science. I have explained the basics, perhaps that may provide a seed to study further.
Before any other crazy people want to try and say that planetary orbits are predictable can they please download grav-sim which is freeware.
It is about as good as you are going to get for free and it has problems which it lists
=>The Grav-Sim simulators use numerical integration techniques to work out where the bodies will be a short time in the future. The calculation is based on where they are now, how fast they’re moving and how strong the pull of gravity is due to the other bodies in the system. The process is then repeated based on the new positions, speed and gravity, moving forward in time step by step.
So they sort of deal with GR/SR effects as best they can without going to the full degree.
Surely by now it has hit home that what you are trying to align to you can’t and never will.
If you go back up to my car moving a sine wave with a small random error added in example I gave Willis you will see your problem. The error is compounding and while you can see the sine wave what happens next is dependant on where the pseudo random generator is on its cycle.
Use Nicola Scaffeta approach what you will have to keep doing is keep adding in nodes to adjust so the sine wave stays on track.
Do you see what the nodes are that I am adding ….. they are attempting to track and approximate the pseudo random number generator sequence.
Assuming Skafetta is correct and this the effect of the planets is causing climate change (and that’s a big if) he will have to keep adding more and more nodes to keep the two locked
The reason why is simple he is trying to adjust for the compounding error introduced by GR/SR and any other perturbation effects.
The whole cycle is at least 86,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years that is 86 billion-trillion-trillion-trillion years from the number I have seen NASA quote.
Clive E. Birkland says:
July 24, 2013 at 10:19 pm
Geoff Sharp has led the way in furthering Landscheidt’s work which I approve of and study.
Both Geoff and Landscheidt [and their followers] are peddling ideas that violate the laws of physics, as James Shirley – also a planetary man – has already pointed out http://www.leif.org/research/Spin-Orbit-Coupling-Shirley-JPL.pdf so even if a planetary theory would eventually be understood and accepted, it will not include any of Geoff and Landscheidt’s ‘basic ideas’. The Abreu et al. paper, for example, that some imbue with relevance does not mention Landscheidt.
[snip]
REPLY: Don’t put words in my mouth not said Dr. Scafetta. I won’t tolerate it.
You are welcome to compose a reply where you do not state things I have not said or written – Anthony
tjfolkerts says:
July 24, 2013 at 10:15 pm
Not only that, but he is subtracting something of the form
A X4 + B X3 + C X2 + D X + E
from the data. Obviously, this introduces five more fitted parameters A thru E to the mix … so now we’re up to 25 fitted parameters.
w.
Clive E. Birkland says:
July 24, 2013 at 10:19 pm (Edit)
Miss the point much? I didn’t say you couldn’t just download the data, Clive. I said I calculated it myself. Some people are not capable of doing those calculations, so they just download the data from JPL … me, I wanted to really understand it.
w.
Leif Svalgaard says:
July 24, 2013 at 8:13 pm
Clive E. Birkland says:
July 24, 2013 at 8:03 pm
In simple terms Theo used solar torque measurements to predict grand minima.
————————————————-
There are no measurements of such torque. I invite you to point out where in Theo’s paper http://bourabai.narod.ru/landscheidt/golden.htm he uses measured solar torque [should be planetary torques if anything]. We have in the past here at WUWT discussed those unphysical assertions [for example the postulated exchanges of Angular Momentum] several times and found them severely wanting.
I have already informed you that you are looking at the wrong paper. His earlier work picked up on the torque extrema and also some esoteric ramblings, but his later work is of better use to science.
Try:
New Little Ice Age
Instead of Global Warming?
http://bourabai.narod.ru/landscheidt/new-e.htm
Figure 11 is the key to his predictions.
Most of us are not interested in your grab bag of standard answers you pull out to quash anyone that does not follow your line. Wollf & Patrone have already provided the mechanism.