Congenital Cyclomania Redux

Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach

Well, I wasn’t going to mention this paper, but it seems to be getting some play in the blogosphere. Our friend Nicola Scafetta is back again, this time with a paper called “Solar and planetary oscillation control on climate change: hind-cast, forecast and a comparison with the CMIP5 GCMs”. He’s posted it up over at Tallbloke’s Talkshop. Since I’m banned over at Tallbloke’s, I thought I’d discuss it here. The paper itself is here, take your Dramamine before jumping on board. Dr. Scafetta has posted here on WUWT several times before, each time with his latest, greatest, new improved model. Here’s how well Scafetta’s even more latester, greatester new model hindcasts, as well as what it predicts, compared with HadCRUT4:

scafetta harmonic variabilityFigure 1. Figure 16A from Scafetta 2013. This shows his harmonic model alone (black), plus his model added to the average of the CMIP5 models following three different future “Representative Concentration Pathways”, or RCPs. The RCPs give various specified future concentrations of greenhouse gases. HadCRUT4 global surface temperature (GST) is in gray.

So far, in each of his previous three posts on WUWT, Dr. Scafetta has said that the Earth’s surface temperature is ruled by a different combination of cycles depending on the post:

First Post: 20 and 60 year cycles. These were supposed to be related to some astronomical cycles which were never made clear, albeit there was much mumbling about Jupiter and Saturn.

Second Post: 9.1, 10-11, 20 and 60 year cycles. Here are the claims made for these cycles:

9.1 years : this was justified as being sort of near to a calculation of (2X+Y)/4, where X and Y are lunar precession cycles,

“10-11″ years: he never said where he got this one, or why it’s so vague.

20 years: supposedly close to an average of the sun’s barycentric velocity period.

60 years: kinda like three times the synodic period of Jupiter/Saturn. Why three times? Why not?

Third Post9.98, 10.9, and 11.86 year cycles. These are claimed to be

9.98 years: slightly different from a long-term average of the spring tidal period of Jupiter and Saturn.

10.9 years: may be related to a quasi 11-year solar cycle … or not.

11.86 years: Jupiter’s sidereal period.

The latest post, however, is simply unbeatable. It has no less than six different cycles, with periods of 9.1, 10.2, 21, 61, 115, and 983 years. I haven’t dared inquire too closely as to the antecedents of those choices, although I do love the “3” in the 983 year cycle. Plus there’s a mystery ingredient, of course.

Seriously, he’s adding together six different cycles. Órale, that’s a lot! Now, each of those cycles has three different parameters that totally define the cycle. These are the period (wavelength), the amplitude (size), and the phase (starting point in time) of the cycle.

This means that not only is Scafetta exercising free choice in the number of cycles that he includes (in this case six). He also has free choice over the three parameters for each cycle (period, amplitude, and phase). That gives him no less than 18 separate tunable parameters.

Just roll that around in your mouth and taste it, “eighteen tunable parameters”. Is there anything that you couldn’t hindcast given 18 different tunable parameters?

Anyhow, if I were handing out awards, I’d certainly give him the first award for having eighteen arbitrary parameters. But then, I’d have to give him another award for his mystery ingredient.

Because of all things, the mystery ingredient in Scafetta’s equation is the average hindcast (and forecast) modeled temperature of the CMIP5 climate models. Plus the mystery ingredient comes with its own amplitude parameter (0.45), along with a hidden parameter for the zero point of the average model temperatures before being multiplied by the amplitude parameter. So that makes twenty different adjustable parameters.

Now, I don’t even know what to say about this method. I’m dumbfounded. He’s starting with the average of the CMIP5 climate models, adjusted by an amplitude parameter and a zeroing parameter. Then he’s figuring the deviations from that adjusted average model result based on his separate 6-cycle, 18-parameter model. The sum of the two is his prediction. I truly lack words to describe that, it’s such an awesome logical jump I can only shake my head in awe at the daring trapeze leaps of faith …

I suppose at this point I need to quote the story again of Freeman Dyson, Enrico Fermi, “Johnny” Von Neumann, and the elephant. Here is Freeman Dyson, with the tale of tragedy:

By the spring of 1953, after heroic efforts, we had plotted theoretical graphs of meson–proton scattering.We joyfully observed that our calculated numbers agreed pretty well with Fermi’s measured numbers. So I made an appointment to meet with Fermi and show him our results. Proudly, I rode the Greyhound bus from Ithaca to Chicago with a package of our theoretical graphs to show to Fermi.

When I arrived in Fermi’s office, I handed the graphs to Fermi, but he hardly glanced at them. He invited me to sit down, and  asked me in a friendly way about the health of my wife and our newborn baby son, now fifty years old. Then he delivered his verdict in a quiet, even voice.

“There are two ways of doing calculations in theoretical physics”, he said. “One way, and this is the way I prefer, is to have a clear physical picture of the process that you are calculating. The other way is to have a precise and self-consistent mathematical formalism. You have neither.”

I was slightly stunned, but ventured to ask him why he did not consider the pseudoscalar meson theory to be a self-consistent mathematical formalism. He replied, “Quantum electrodynamics is a good theory because the forces are weak, and when the formalism is ambiguous we have a clear physical picture to guide us.With the pseudoscalar meson theory there is no physical picture, and the forces are so strong that nothing converges. To reach your calculated results, you had to introduce arbitrary cut-off procedures that are not based either on solid physics or on solid mathematics.”

In desperation I asked Fermi whether he was not impressed by the agreement between our calculated numbers and his measured numbers. He replied, “How many arbitrary parameters did you use for your calculations?” I thought for a moment about our cut-off procedures and said, “Four.” He said, “I remember my friend Johnny von Neumann used to say, with four parameters I can fit an elephant, and with five I can make him wiggle his trunk.”

With that, the conversation was over. I thanked Fermi for his time and trouble, and sadly took the next bus back to Ithaca to tell the bad news to the students.

Given that lesson from Dyson, and bearing in mind that Scafetta is using a total of 20 arbitrary parameters … are we supposed to be surprised that Nicola can make an elephant wiggle his trunk? Heck, with that many parameters, he should be able to make that sucker tap dance and spit pickle juice …

Now, you can expect that if Nicola Scafetta shows up, he will argue that somehow the 20 different parameters are not arbitrary, oh, no, they are fixed by the celestial processes. They will likely put forward the same kind of half-ast-ronomical explanation  they’ve used before—that this one represents (2X+Y)/4, where X and Y are lunar precession cycles, or that another one’s 60 year cycle is kind of near three times the synodic period of Jupiter and Saturn (59.5766 years) and close is good enough, that kind of thing. Or perhaps they’ll make the argument that Fourier analysis shows peaks that are sort of near to their chosen numbers, and that’s all that’s needed.

The reality is, if you give me a period in years, I can soon come up with several astronomical cycles that can be added, subtracted, and divided to give you something very near the period you’ve given me … which proves nothing.

Scafetta has free choice of how many cycles to include, and free choice as to the length, amplitude, and phase of each those cycles. And even if he can show that the length of one of his cycles is EXACTLY equal to some astronomical constant, not just kind of near it, he still has totally free choice of phase and amplitude for that cycle. So to date, he’s the leading contender for the 2013 Johnny Von Neumann award, which is given for the most tunable parameters in any scientific study.

The other award I’d give this paper would be for Scafetta’s magical Figure 11, which I reproduce below in all its original glory.

kepler trigon II

Figure 2. Scafetta’s Figure 11 (click to enlarge) ORIGINAL CAPTION: (Left) Schematic representation of the rise and fall of several civilizations since Neolithic times that well correlates with the 14C radio- nucleotide records used for estimating solar activity (adapted from Eddy’s figures in Refs. [90, 91]). Correlated solar-climate multisecular and millennial patterns are recently confirmed [43, 44, 47]. (Right) Kepler’s Trigon diagram of the great Jupiter and Saturn conjunctions between 1583 to 1763 [89], highlighting 20 year and 60 year astronomical cycles, and a slow millennial rotation. 

First off, does that graphic, Figure 11 in Scafetta’s opus, make you feel better or worse about Dr. Scafetta’s claims? Does it give you that warm fuzzy feeling about his science? And why are Kepler’s features smooched out sideways and his fingers so long? At least let me give the poor fellow back his original physiognomy.

kepler painting

There, that’s better. Next, you need to consider the stepwise changes he shows in “carbon 14”, and the square-wave nature of the advance and retreat of alpine glaciers at the lower left. That in itself was good, I hadn’t realized that the glaciers advanced and retreated in that regular a fashion, or that carbon 14 was unchanged for years before and after each shift in concentration. And I did appreciate that there were no units for any of the four separate graphs on the page, that counted heavily in his favor. But what I awarded him full style points for was the seamless segue from alpine glaciers to the “winter severity index” in the year 1000 … that was a breathtaking leap.

And as you might expect from a man citing Kepler, Scafetta treats scientific information like fine wine—he doesn’t want anything of recent vintage. Apparently on his planet you have to let science mellow for some decades before you bring it out to breathe … and in that regard, I direct your attention to the citation in the bottom center of his Figure 11, “Source: Geophysical Data, J. Biddy J. B. Eddy (USA) 1978″. (Thanks to Nicola for the correction, the print was too small to read.)

Where he stepped up to the big leagues, though, is in the top line in the chart. Click on the chart to enlarge it if you haven’t done so yet, so you can see all the amazing details. The “Sumeric Maximum”, the collapse of Machu Pichu, the “Greek Minimum”, the end of the Maya civilization, the “Pyramid Maximum” … talk about being “Homeric in scope”, he’s even got the “Homeric Minimum”.

Finally, he highlights the “20 year and 60 year astronomical cycles” in Kepler’s chart at the right. In fact, what he calls the “20 year” cycles shown in Kepler’s dates at the right vary from 10 to 30 years according to Kepler’s own figures shown inside the circle, and what he calls the “60 year astronomical cycles” include cycles from 50 to 70 years …

In any case, I’m posting all of this because I just thought folks might like to know of Nicola Scafetta’s latest stunning success. Using a mere six cycles and only twenty tunable parameters plus the average of a bunch of climate models, he has emulated the historical record with pretty darn good accuracy.

And now that he has explained just exactly how to predict the climate into the future, I guess the only mystery left is what he’ll do for an encore performance. Because this most recent paper of his, this one will be very hard to top.

In all seriousness, however, let me make my position clear.

Are there cycles in the climate? Yes, there are cycles. However, they are not regular, clockwork cycles like those of Jupiter and Saturn. Instead, one cycle will appear, and will be around for a while, and then disappear to be replaced by some longer or shorter cycle. It is maddening, frustrating, but that’s the chaotic nature of the beast. The Pacific Decadal Oscillation doesn’t beat like a clock, nor does the El Nino or the Madden-Julian oscillation or any other climate phenomena.

What is the longest cycle that can be detected in a hundred year dataset? My rule of thumb is that even if I have two full cycles, my results are too uncertain to lean on. I want three cycles so I can at least get a sense about the variation. So for a hundred year dataset, any cycle over fifty years in length is a non-starter, and thirty-three years and shorter is what I will start to trust.

Can you successfully hindcast temperatures using other cycles than the ones Scafetta uses? Certainly. He has demonstrated that himself, as this is the fourth combination of arbitrarily chosen cycles that he has used. Note that in each case he has claimed the model was successful. This by no means exhausts the possible cycle combinations that can successfully emulate the historical temperature.

Does Scafetta’s accomplishment mean anything? Sure. It means that with six cycles and no less than twenty tunable parameters, you can do just about anything. Other than that, no. It is meaningless.

Could he actually test his findings? Sure, and I’ve suggested it to him. What you need to do is run the analysis again, but this time using the data from say 1910 to 1959 only. Derive your 20 fitted variables using this data alone.

Then test your 20 fitted variables against the data from 1960 to 2009, and see how the variables pan out.

Then do it the other way around. Train the model on the later data, and see how well it does on the early data. It’s not hard to do. He knows how to do it. But if he has ever done it, I have not seen anywhere that he has reported the results.

How do I know all this? Folks, I can’t tell you how many late nights I’ve spent trying to fit any number and combination of cycles to the historical climate data. I’ve used Fourier analysis and periodicity analysis and machine-learning algorithms and wavelets and stuff I’ve invented myself. Whenever I’ve thought I have something, as soon as it leaves the training data and starts on the out-of-sample data, it starts to diverge from reality. And of course, the divergence increases over time.

But that’s simply the same truth we all know about computer weather forecasting programs—out-of-sample, they don’t do all that well, and quickly become little better than a coin flip.

Finally, even if the cycles fit the data and we ignore the ridiculous number of arbitrary parameters, where is the physical mechanism connecting some (2*X+T)/4 combination of two astronomical cycles, and the climate? As Enrico Fermi pointed out, you need to have either “a clear physical picture of the process that you are calculating” or a precise and self-consistent mathematical formalism”. 

w.

PS—Please don’t write in to say that although Nicola is wrong, you have the proper combination of cycles, based on your special calculations. Also, please don’t try to explain how a cycle of 21 years is really, really similar to the Jupiter-Saturn synodic cycle of 19+ years. I’m not buying cycles of any kind, motorcycles, epicycles, solar cycles, bicycles, circadian cycles, nothing. Sorry. Save them for some other post, they won’t go bad, but please don’t post them here.

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Alcheson
July 24, 2013 7:09 am

Nicolas says “My hind casts and forecasts are succeeding.”
I still have yet to see your hindcast include the LIA and MWP.

July 24, 2013 7:34 am

Willis Eschenbach:
At “John Daly, Station of the Week – Northern Norway (3 Oct 03),” ; a Postscript, 08: Oct.2003 reads:
___ “Willis Eschenbach did a closer examination of Vardø and also found the same discontinuity around 1920, amounting to 0.73°C. …..”; the published graphic is here: http://www.john-daly.com/stations/vardo2.gif .
What was the reason for this significant annual discontinuity? Would your reasoning be different if this sudden shift has shown up particularly during the winter season from about 1920 to 1940, starting in the Arctic sector of the North Atlantic, but increased subsequently the air temperatures all over the Northern Hemisphere (N.America until 1933, in Europe until 1940)? It could not have been tides, neither the sun, and most unlikely any ‘cycle’, as discussed here: http://www.arctic-heats-up.com/ , which indicates that it had been merely an ocean issue. Your mentioned Vardø examination and findings is well appreciated, and an inspiration for a better understanding of the global warming period from 1920 to 1940.

Clive E. Birkland
July 24, 2013 7:50 am

Leif Svalgaard says:
July 24, 2013 at 7:09 am
Clive E. Birkland says:
July 24, 2013 at 12:54 am
What major concept did Theo use to predict grand minima?
—————-
Ah, here is the gem you are seeking:
“A phase reversal [an irregular maximum instead of the regular minimum] occurs when the starting phase of a big finger collides with the initial phase of a small finger. The new rhythm continues until the next starting phase of a big finger intervenes”.
All is clear.

What is clear is that none of the procrastinators know what Landschidt used to predict grand minima. If you do not know this basic piece of information, you know nothing.
Keep trying, you might learn something, his method is not 100% correct, but close to the mark (off by 20 years).

LdB
July 24, 2013 8:04 am

@Nicola Scafetta
=> (1) about 50-60% of the warming observed since 1850 and since 1970 was induced by natural oscillations likely resulting from harmonic astronomical forcings that are not yet included in the GCMs
So explain that garbage stop dancing around the issue that statement is mumbo jumbo.
Even if you take standard Milankovitch theory it has no science basis and is garbage because it’s basis is Kepler’s laws which science already knows is wrong. You can’t base a theory on something you know is wrong and make it right and expect science to go along.
We tried that once with Newton’s laws and it got us into a pile of trouble because it was wrong but the observation correlated well. Don’t ever expect science to do that again and your correlation is never going to be as good as gravity was to Newtons law and I don’t care how long you play with your wiggly lines.
As scientists we don’t care how well you line all this garbage up it’s still garbage unless you can correctly fix all this up.
So how about starting at the beginning and acting like a proper scientist …. from memory someone has already done all the corrections to Kepler’s orbits into GR/SR and yes Keplers orbits were wrong as well.
When you have boosted all the cycles into GR/SR you might actually be able to see what is going on and you should even be able to have a nice computer program and model to look at what is happening.
At that point you might be able to see clearly what is happening and stop guessing and you might even be able to start to try and formulate what an astronomical forcing is and perhaps even work out how to measure it to prove a theory.
We call that process science.
So are you a scientist or into voodoo and black magic Mr Nicola Scafetta your choice.

John Tillman
July 24, 2013 8:18 am

Leif Svalgaard says:
July 24, 2013 at 7:09 am
Procrastinators or prognosticators?

LdB
July 24, 2013 9:24 am

It occurred to me some people do not get why Nicola Scafetta idea as it stands won’t work and why he has to boost the problem into GR/SR so it’s worth taking a quick post to explain it I guess.
The problem starts with Kepler and Newton and in there world the force of gravity is instantaneous it is not restricted to the speed of light … think about the delay in transmission to anything we send into space. Next you have the problem that they view the gravity as a force rather than an acceleration and then you have relativistic or speed effects of the bodies speed and they speed up and down as they orbit. The result is you end up with something that sort of starts to look like a chaotic system.
The problem you face is the inaccuracy in classic physics in all of that on a multi body solution is actually higher than the thing you are trying to measure so put bluntly classic physics will fail.
There are some simplified post-Newtonian ways to study all that but there is a big problem to tidy the system up we use the position of the sun as the reference frame and use Cowell’s method, Enke-style integrator or a few other approaches.
See the problem ….. by doing that you remove the very thing Mr Scafetta is trying to study the effect on the sun.
At this point we haven’t even added in perturbation from celestial objects we haven’t got under direct calculations (that is oscillations from small bodies we have ignored) which will also add in significant noise and error and start to make the system look even more chaotic.
So using a bit of science you can see the problem much clearer and you can see why the silly exercise to try and line up wiggly lines is never going to work because the system is somewhat chaotic and we know why but he is trying to ignore it.
So the first step that needs to happen is you need to boost the problem to account for the fact that the speed gravity force is at the speed of light not instantly because that effect alone will be creating massive chaos and error … ideally the whole problem needs to go GR/SR.
There may be a cheat way around the problem which would be by using one of the post-Newtonian methods on a point in space other than the sun so you could calculate what is happening at the sun but I would like to see a proper astrophysicist discussion on that and what errors are likely. That approach is well out of my ability to comment on.

July 24, 2013 10:08 am

Willis Eschenbach: “Joe, if I’ve dismissed you when you were correct, my bad. There’s always more to learn.”
I realized too late that my comment came out as though I were renewing a complaint, which was not my intention. I was merely attempting, poorly, as it turned out, to emphasize that many and probably most of this site’s visitors view Mr. Eschenbach’s submissions critically, no matter how much they value his insights.
But this brings up a good point. It turns out that, in the most recent instance of the type to which I referred, Mr. Eschenbach did ultimately look into my comment more deeply, and he acknowledged his error publicly, as this site’s regulars know is his practice. If he paid that much attention to the musings of a no-credential layman, how much more likely is he to give due consideration to a Ph. D. physicist–if that physicist makes his case clearly and compellingly? And, although as I said we don’t take Mr. Eschenbach’s opinions as gospel, a positive opinion from him would, rightly or wrongly, make some of us more likely to allocate a portion of our limited time to investigating Dr. Scafetta’s work more thoroughly.

Tim Folkerts
July 24, 2013 10:12 am

LdB,
While I agree with much of what you write, I do feel you are worrying too much about relativity. Yes, relatively is important and interesting. But Newtonain mechanics could better be described as “the low speed/low gravity limit of relativity” rather than “wrong”.
For the case or planetary orbits, relativity is a fairly minor correction. One of the most famous examples is the precession of Mercury. The classical prediction is that the perihelion will shift 532 arcsec/century. Relativity corrects this by 43 arcseconds to give a much better answer. But remember, this is a correction of only 0.012 degrees per century in one aspect of Mercury’s orbit. This is a “big” relativistic correction, but would not even be noticeable in Scaffetta’s work (even if his work does turn out to have any basis in physical causes). Delays in gravity within the solar system will also, I strongly suspect, be only exceedingly minor corrections. Relativity is NOT the problem with this paper.

July 24, 2013 10:26 am

Willis Eschenbach says:
“Nicola, you’ve been offered the opportunity to use the magnificent pulpit of WUWT to spread your theories, but only if you reveal your secret data and your secret computer code.”
Willis, what are the secret data and secret codes that you want?
If you had read my paper you would know that data and code are public.
You have no arguments any more but only engage in defamation tactics, don’t you?
But let us assume that the data and codes are secret, (which are not) how can you criticized something that is secret?
Anthony is damaging himself a lot by giving credit to people like you.
REPLY: People like Willis? Let me tell you something Nicola, I’ve met both of you personally, and you are both fine thoughtful people. But if I had to choose who I’d want to publish a paper with, it would be Willis, because he has the capability to keep me from fooling myself with the types of data analysis that could lead to confirmation bias.
And Nicola, if you want to publish here, the offer still stands, including the requirement for data and code to allow replication of your work in that paper. That way we can determine if your analysis is real, or just a case of confirmation bias. If it is public, just point us to it. Thanks. – Anthony

LdB
July 24, 2013 10:28 am

@Willis
Now, it’s obvious that Scafetta’s parameters are not astronomically based, other than in the way a Hollywood movie is “based on a true story”, which is to say not at all. If they were, he’d use 59.5766 years for his cycle, not 60 OR 61 as he’s done. They are all arbitrary. In addition to the period, he has also adjusted the amplitude and the phase of the cycles to make his formula work
It’s worse Willis they can’t be a constant by the laws of GR … the speed of gravity is the speed of light and the gravity earth is seeing from the moon is the position the moon was on average 1.29 seconds ago. The gravity earth is seeing from the sun is it’s position 8 min and 20 seconds ago. The gravity from Jupiter earth is seeing was the position of Jupiter between 35 and 52 minutes ago.
Those delays mean the planetary cycles mean little the whole cycle sort of looks chaotic …. want a guess what the number for a proper alignment repeat cycle for the main 8 planets and our moon
86,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years that is 86 billion-trillion-trillion-trillion years
Now even 86 billion-trillion-trillion-trillion years might be optimistic for gravity repeats because that is a planetary alignment cycle and I am not sure that takes into account to make sure the planets are the same distance apart on each alignment
In between then and now there will be sort of chaotic cyclical stuff but it will vary wildly because of the delays …. what do you think the chances are to hold a correlation even with 20 parameters over that time span.

July 24, 2013 10:29 am

July 13, 2013 at 12:35 PM
I think the start of the temperature decline will commence within six months of the end of solar cycle 24 maximum and should last for at least 30+ years.
My question is how does the decline take shape, is it slow and gradual or in jagged movements as thresholds are met. I think some jagged movements then a leveling off then another jerk etc etc. Will thresholds be met?
I KNOW THEY ARE OUT THERE.
I think the maximum of solar cycle 24 ends within 6 months, and once the sun winds down from this maximum it is going to be extremely quiet.
Solar flux sub 72, although sub 90 is probably low enough.
Solar Wind sub 350 km/sec.
AP INDEX 5.0 or lower 98+ % of the time.
Solar Irradiance off .2% or greater.
UV light off upwards of 50% in the extreme short wavelengths.
This condition was largely acheived in years 2008-2010 but the number of sub- solar years of activity proceeding these readings back then was only 3 or 4 years, this time it will be over 8+ years of sub- solar activity, and no weak solar maximum will be forthcoming.
Lag times come into play mostly due to the oceans.
It is clear that thesalvatore del prete says:
greenhouse effect ,how effective it is ,is a result of energy coming into and leaving the earth climatic system. The warmer the oceans the more effective the greenhouse effect and vice versa.
With oceans cooling in response to a decrease in solar visible light the amounts of co2/water vapor will be on the decrease thus making the greenhouse effect less effective going forward. At the same time the albedo of earth will be on the increase due to more low clouds,ice and snow cover.
ROUTE CAUSE OF THE CLIMATE TO CHANGE
Very weak solar magnetic fields, and a declining weak unstable geomagnetic field, and all the secondary feedbacks associated with this condition.
SOME SECONDARY EFFECTS WITH WEAK MAGNETIC FIELDS
weaker solar irradiance
weaker solar wind
increase in cosmic rays
increase in volcanic activity
decrease in ocean heat content
a more meridional atmospheric circulation
more La Ninas ,less El Ninos
cold Pdo /Amo
I say the start of a significant cooling period is on our doorstep, it is months away. Once solar cycle 24 maximum ends it starts.
This has happened 18 times in the past 7500 years(little ice ages and or cooling periods ) ,number 19 is going to take place now.
Two of the most recent ones are the Maunder Minimum(1645-1700) and the Dalton Minimum(1790-1830).
I say this one 2014- 2050??
Reply

tjfolkerts
July 24, 2013 10:30 am

This sort of “cyclomania” and curve fitting can be very valuable as a pointer toward real ‘science’. But it is only a pointer. The next step is to self-consistently fit this new knowledge into previous knowledge — and then to predict new things.
It reminds me of a favorite science quote:

“Science is built up of facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house.”
Henri Poincare

* I strongly second the suggestion that Scafetta “train” his fits with only part of the data and then see if it really does predict the rest of the data well.
* I also suggest that Scafetta try to quantify the sizes of the effects with the size of the causes. Do stronger causes correspond to bigger amplitudes?

July 24, 2013 10:32 am

Leif is in denial of past history and the data that shows clear correlations between solar magnetic field strength and climate change.

July 24, 2013 10:35 am

Willis, I think that, from another solar system, one could detect the presence of planets orbiting around the Sun by the induced wobbling.
Furthermore, I thought Dr. Scafetta’s model would get more explicit and refined, his explanations clearer. Maybe I was mistaken, I think.

LdB
July 24, 2013 10:37 am

@Tim Folkerts
Tim if the sun was transported into a wormhole and disappeared right now you would not know about it for 8 min and 20 sec. You would still have light and the earth would still act as if the sun was there.
The gravity earth experiences right now right here from the sun was relative to it’s position 8 minutes ago. In the 8 minutes everything moved the effect is massive you can’t say Newton gravity is okay it isn’t when trying to do this.
You are trying to equate the movement of the planets as creating an effect and you want to ignore the time delays …. seriously get real the errors are massive.

July 24, 2013 10:48 am

Nicola Scafetta has a much better grasp then Leif, the problem however with his approach is he wants everything to fit into a cycle, with somekind of a predictive result due to cycles.
It won’t work that way mainly due to the following factors.
The beginning state of the climate is going to greatly effect the end result of the climate even if the same forcings effecting the climate are applied.
Secondly the magnitude of solar/geomagnetic changes and there durations are always going to be different which means at times thresholds can be reached while at other times climatic thresholds will not be reached.
This means the climate can stay in the same climatic regime if thresholds are not met and have a gradual trend down or up in temperature which is what Nicola subcribes to, due to cycles..
On the other hand HOWEVER , if thresholds are met then abrupt climatic shifts can occur within a decade and the climate could swing into another climatic regime, which Nicola does not grasp or understand.
Therefore the end result for a climate change will be impossible to predict other then the general trend in temperatures that being up and down.
Also he believes in a GHG effect, which is true but the GHG effect is a result of energy in the earth/climatic system and will lessen if solar out put decreases.
Why? Cooler oceans will result in less evaporation (less water vapor in atm.) and absorb more CO2. Less water vapor and less Co2 in atmosphere will result in a weaker greenhouse gas effect.
DATA SUBSTANCIATES THIS FACT IN THAT CO2 CONCENTRATIONS FOLLOW THE TEMPERATURE RATHER THEN LEAD IT.

tjfolkerts
July 24, 2013 10:58 am

LbD says: “Tim if the sun was transported into a wormhole and disappeared right now you would not know about it for 8 min and 20 sec. You would still have light and the earth would still act as if the sun was there.”
But no one is talking about suddenly removing the sun! We are talking about the slowly varying gravity of planets pulling on the earth and/or sun. Using the value of tidal effect from Jupiter 20 minutes ago instead of the value right now is not going in have a noticeable impact on periods measured in years.

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