Only remotely related to climate change, but perhaps related to politics polluting universities, this essay floats ideas concerning our nations fisheries, and fishes for feedback from WUWT readers.
Guest essay by Caleb Shaw
When I was just a small child in the 1950’s the United States stubbornly clung to having a mere three-mile-limit, and Russian fishermen could come quite close to our shores with boats loaded with spying equipment. They also overfished the Grand Banks and our other offshore waters with deep, bottom-churning dragnets to such a degree the codfish population crashed. Even when the three-mile-limit was pushed far off shore, the codfish never came back.
The fishermen have taken a lot of heat for the failure of the codfish to return, and university biologists have worked hand in hand with paper-shuffling bureaucrats in Washington, far from the briny swells and crying gulls, and these lubbers tell sea-going men, men who know the sea like the back of their hands, what to do about the sea.
The fishermen have no choice but obey the bosses in high places, and their fishing has been cut back more and more. It has not made a lick of difference. In fact, if you wanted to use absurd logic, you could say the situation proves that the less you fish the less fish there are. Either that or you could say that whenever Washington gets involved, things get screwed up.
In actual fact there are three main reasons the codfish population hasn’t come back, despite the fact a single mother codfish lays over a million eggs.
The first reason is that the Atlantic goes through a cycle, roughly sixty years long, called the AMO, (Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation,) and in a simplistic way this suggests that the best breeding conditions for a codfish only comes around every sixty years. Right now we are back to the conditions of 1953, the year I was born.
In actual fact the shifting positions of warm water and cold water created by the AMO mean that there are different places in the North Atlantic, which, every year, may be having their peak year for breeding codfish.
You will please notice that fishermen have no control over the AMO. Even if there was a population explosion of cod, there is another harvester of cod besides fishermen: Seals.
Seals happen to be very cute, and they started being protected when their soulful eyes touched people back in the 1970’s. Recently their population explosion has gotten out of hand. For example, in 1994 on Muskeget Island there were 19 grey seals, and by 2011 it was difficult to count them all; there were between 3500 and 3800. The population of Grey Seals in Massachusetts alone has passed 15,000, and the population of Harbor Seals in New England has passed 100,000. (Read More: http://www.talkingfish.org/newengland-fisheries/booming-new-england-seal-population-creates-a-management-challenge
Even if there were only 100,000 seals in New England, if they each ate five codfish a day, that would a million codfish every two days. That adds up pretty quickly. We are talking a sizable catch of 182.5 million codfish per year.
The seals will not obey the environmentalists who tell the fishermen to fish less, even though they owe their lives to environmentalists, for rather than fish less, the seals fish more and more. What is especially annoying to fishermen, who are not allowed to shoot seals, is that the seals like to follow boats and steal fish right out of the nets.
Is this a return to natural conditions? Not really, because for thousands of years, long before the “white man” came, the natural predator of seals was Native Americans. Native Americans had really neat sea-going canoes; dugouts made of the trunks of huge white pines, and hunted for not only seals, but also whales (though likely the baby whales were preferred.)
Even the most ancient of known mound-building Native American people, the Red Paint People, who lived north of New England, had swordfish bills in their graves, and, because swordfish lack swim-bladders and sink to the bottom rather than floating to the shore, this is taken as indirect evidence that, even as long ago a ten thousand years ago, (before Stonehenge in England,) seagoing humans hunted our shores. In other words, this may be the first time in ten thousand years seals are not hunted.
What other natural predator may have existed, ten thousand years ago, which hunted seals? Evidence is scant, however a subspecies of polar bear may have roamed this far south, as the seas rose after the last ice age, and covered the ancient shorelines.
The only predator we are sure of is the Great White Shark. And now that seal populations are booming, such scary sharks are becoming more common off Cape Cod. For the first time since 1936 a swimmer was attacked, last summer.
That single attack made people think more about culling the population of seals than the suffering of hundreds of fishermen. Likely this occurred because people are greedy, and tourism brings in money, and news of swimmers being eaten by Great White Sharks is bad for business. Unfortunately, besides the tourists brought in by whale watching, there are tourists brought in by seal watching, and, because seals are cute while sharks are downright ugly, some think the Great White Sharks are the ones who ought be culled.
Perhaps we ought bring in a population of polar bears. They are cute, and eat seals, and people feel all warm and cozy when the polar bear population goes up, and, if a few swimming tourists got eaten, well; you can’t make an omelet without breaking a few eggs.
You’ll notice nobody talks much about 182.5 million codfish getting devoured. Why not? The answer is obvious. Ever look a codfish in the face? They are most definitely not cute. (Nor are most of the fishermen, whose livelihoods depend on codfish.)
I hate to sound cynical, but it seems to me a lot of the university biologists, rather than basing their conclusions on science, are basing conclusions, (which usually conclude fishermen should make less money by fishing less,) on a sort of political correctness founded upon money, votes, and, damn it all, cuteness.
If university biologists were true scientists they would ignore all the nonsense of the non-scientific idiots ruling Washington, and study a third and likely most significant reason for the decline in codfish populations. This involves the fact that, when a mother codfish lays a million eggs, they are very tiny eggs. In fact, for the first few weeks of a codfish’s life, codfish are basically plankton. It is only after three or four weeks that they stop swirling about the surface, and sink to deeper depths and start behaving like a more ordinary minnow.
During the time they are plankton they are constantly growing. Many of the species of plankton about them do not grow. A tiny critter that devours countless codfish may need to turn tail a week later, because the cod it missed might turn around and eat it.
Consider the interesting computer modeling this might involve, for a geek at a university. How often in nature does the predator become the prey? Does a baby deer grow up to eat a mountain lion, or a baby rabbit grow up to eat foxes? However, in the world of codfish, such is the case. What an interesting “K,” (The equilibrium constant,.) to play around with!
It just might be that the reason the Codfish population isn’t recovering is because a certain species of plankton is eating them all. However, if only those million babies could be sheltered for only three weeks, and released, they would devour the very foe that has been depressing the codfish population, whereupon, without that foe devouring the smallest codfish, those smaller ones would also mature and eat the foe, until the foe became few and far between, and codfish populations would explode.
It should be noted that “white men” first came over here from Europe, perhaps as long ago as the 1300’s, for one risky but lucrative reason, and that reason was to fish for codfish. There is much argument about when the fishing first started, but European fishermen certainly were sailing here before there were any “official” colonies. They had no desire to take over or start colonies, and only briefly landed here to build fires and dry their fish, before sailing back east to Europe. Why did they go to all that trouble? Because it was lucrative. Why? Because, according to histories I’ve read, the codfish were so thick on the Grand Banks they didn’t need to use nets. They used over-sized baskets, to dip the fish from the swarming sea.
Considering such a population boom is within the realm of possibility, and considering the good such a vast source of high-protein nourishment would be to a hungry humanity, I can only wonder over the fact not a single university smarty-pants has (as far as I know,) ever proposed a codfish hatchery.
We spend millions on hatcheries for trout and salmon, but not a penny on codfish hatcheries. We spend billions on stupid wind turbines that are counter-productive, but not a penny on a single boat for the reestablishment codfish populations.
What sort of boat? It would be a boat designed to strip mother codfish of their million-plus eggs, milk father codfish of their sperm, keep the fertilized eggs and hatchling in a safe, predator-free environment until they were two, three or four weeks old, and then release them to the wild. In other words: a hatchery.
I’m sure creating such a tub would involve all sorts of problems. However isn’t that what universities are for? To use our brilliant, young minds to solve problems?
I’m sure it would cost money, however considering the trillions spent on welfare, on unproductive losers, (on thin air,) a “mere” half billion spent building three or four small, sea-going hatcheries, and staffing them, (and many students would actually like wallowing about the Grand Banks and getting sea-sick, and do it for free,) might be an acceptable risk, as an investment. Especially when there is at least a small chance that having actual hatcheries for codfish might restore populations to their former amazing levels.
I know young and naïve students would leap at the chance of supplying the hungry world with a huge stock of codfish, even if the scheme seemed a bit hare-brained to their pragmatic elders.
I also know these same students are sick to death of having to affix “Global Warming” to the final paragraph of each and every report, whether it be about the mating habits of nematodes, or about when dogs howl at the moon, simply to get a parking place at the college cafeteria.
Kids are not as stupid as we old geezers sometimes think, you know.
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Latitude;
The sun has popped out and I need to catch up on work that rain cancelled, but I am trying to follow your mind, and am having a bit of trouble.
I think you need to brush up the art of succinctly summarizing what you are referring to, before moving on to your next point. I’m pretty confused by what you are saying about the migrations of cod.
Anyway, work demands my attention. I’ll catch up with you later.
This is an interesting topic and (having never lived near nor worked on an ocean) I am learning a lot from the rest of you folks. Thanks for staying civil. The reading is much easier.
========================
When I got to this . . .
Willis Eschenbach says:
June 13, 2013 at 9:17 pm
“I’m happy to learn from you … but you’ll have to tell me something I don’t know …
The good news is, there’s much more that I don’t know than there is that I do know—so telling me something I don’t know shouldn’t be too hard …”
. . . the phraseology hit personally. I was supposed to be teaching first year college students about topographic maps. The map series was the US 7 ½ minute ‘quads’. Each student had a map covering the area “they were most familiar with” – usually that would be where they went to high school or where their home was.
There were a number of things each person was to do with the map to learn what was on it and how to “read” it. I can look at such a map and tell much about the area so they were also supposed to “tell me something I don’t know …”
For some reason that phraseology rankled a few of the students – although I thought, and still do, that it was a reasonable request.
The last time I taught that class the WWW (or internet) had morphed into the commercial space we now have. I student thought he knew an animal I should know about. The Javelina. He found a site and copied 4 pages to insert into his report. The first page had a photo and a short description of the animal. The next 3 pages contained photos and descriptions of hiking shoes and boots, called (– -wait for it – –) Javelina Hikers. The animal wasn’t news, but the boots were. Knowledge is where you find it. Unintentional on his part – he hadn’t read past the first page.
Latitude says:
June 14, 2013 at 8:59 am
Um … because inter alia, the study is about salmon and sturgeon, and how they are impacted by dams?
But you’re right, I didn’t describe the whole plotline of the study … didn’t think I needed to, I was under the impression you’d read it.
Ooooh, why didn’t you say that? If I had known that it had undergone peer review, I would never have questioned it …
Perhaps you haven’t noticed, Latitude, but there’s plenty of meaningless papers peer reviewed and published every day. You can start with Mann’s Hockey Stick and go on from there, but if by now you haven’t realized that peer-review means nothing, well … well … well, I guess in that case I’m not in the least surprised.
I noted that about COD the first time I read your citation. As I said before, perhaps you need to read this stuff twice. I don’t.
It was not news to me then, and is not news to me now, that offshore fish are affected by what happens inshore. You’re lecturing a commercial fisherman about fish … perhaps this is all fascinating novel stuff to you, but to me and other fishermen, we’ve known about the relationship between inland and ocean fisheries for decades.
Seriously, Latitude. The idea that cod and other oceanic fish are impacted by dams on the rivers is Fish Science 101, or even less. You keep presenting and re-presenting the same idea, which is true but elementary and old, as if that will make your pabulum new and interesting.
It is neither. It’s old news, boring the first time, and twice as boring when you re-quote it.
w.
. I’m pretty confused by what you are saying about the migrations of cod.
=====
Caleb, the dams are stopping the migration of the cod’s food. It’s their food (salmon, shad, herring, eels, baby sturgeon, etc) that need to migrate up the rivers to spawn. Their food collapsed.
Cod move into the gulf to feed in the summer….no food….no chumming…no cod
The cod move back out to communal spawning/holding grounds in the late fall, back to the ocean, populations mix, spawn late winter early spring, then move back inshore where there’s food.
..if they don’t find food…they keep moving and looking until they do…or die
No one would expect them to hang around in a gulf/bay where there’s not enough food…….
Ooooh, why didn’t you say that? If I had known that it had undergone peer review, I would never have questioned it …
===
Willis, you are a piece of work…..LOL
As many times as I said “FOOD”….now you want to act like you caught it all along
…You didn’t have a clue
You even thought the dams were stopping the cods migration….
David Riser says:
June 12, 2013 at 11:34 pm
Peer reviewed science is used to make decisions about gear and catch limits. }
Peer reviewed? Reviews of the the number of fish and catch limits???
To wit:
“adopted a broad suite of management measures in order to achieve fishing mortality targets and meet other requirements of the M-S Act.”
You missed the point.
Caleb is suggesting they think Outside The BOX for ways to increase supply, rather than attempt to keep a static volume of production. But rocking the boat and novel ideas, in my lengthy experience in civil service, is NOT done. Witness the 97%.
Pointing to a group of people charged with enforcing a congressional mandate as being able to solve this problem is a red herring. (pun intended).
Hal Dall says:
June 13, 2013 at 9:20 pm
New “green energy” idea to save the planet: Catch the seals and press out the oil for vehicles and fishing boats! Bio-Die-Seal!
Good One!
Re: latitude
This was in the summation of one of your links:
This dictates a need for a precautionary principle that favors fisheries
management for ecological benefits first rather than solely for economic benefits.
I’m not a fan of that principle.
Latitude says:
June 14, 2013 at 9:12 am
Thanks, Latitude. You are right that there are no distinct populations, they are all the same species.
However, there are different “stocks”, which is what I said above, and they don’t seem to intermix much. One stock can decline, while another nearby stock may be flourishing. In my own mental universe I think of those kinds of groups as “tribes”. They are no different than their neighbors, but they don’t intermarry much.
And it is also true that most fish move some with the winter/summer swing.
But your claim was that the cod had migrated from Iceland to Martha’s vineyard, and that the fishermen had followed them in that migration, viz:
Tuna are migratory fish. They wander all over the Pacific, an annual migration of thousands and thousands of miles. And they are chased by fishermen that follow them in that migration.
Cod, on the other hand, have been in Martha’s Vineyard since time immemorial. They didn’t move from Iceland to Greenland to Labrador to Martha’s Vineyard as you claim.
The fishermen moved—outwards from Europe to new, and in some cases more productive, fishing grounds in Greenland, Canada, and the Grand Banks.
w.
PS—There is a staggeringly good description of the dory-and-handline cod fishery on the Banks in Kipling’s “Captains Courageous”, which by pure chance I happened to re-read last month. Boats of oak and men of steel … as a long-time commercial fisherman, I could only bow my head.
Willis,
Based on your recommendation I just downloaded “Captains Courageous” to my e-reader. [95¢. I could have got it on-line for free, but my Nook is a very handy reader].
I’ve always liked Kipling. Despite his critics, he was a great writer and poet.
Good heavens! I’ve seen conversations devolve at WUWT before, but, this rates up there as one of the most/best/worst!
Let me see if I get this right. Caleb writes a nice post about our Cod situation. And, while it mentions many things to consider, it seems that Latitude picked up on a major factor regarding our cod that wasn’t mentioned in the post. Nor did I see it highlighted in the comments. This isn’t a criticism of Caleb, it’s just an observation.
While some, who may be unfamiliar with Lat may think his observations attach some sort of advocacy, those of us familiar with Lat, know that it is not. I’m mystified as to why there’s so much resistance to the thought that if an animal’s food source is gone, that said animal will be scarce where the food source once was.
While most here recognize the one side of the predator/prey coin, we know predators are not the only limiting factor of populations, indeed, they can be good for the populations. In fact, given the history, we can be fairly certain it isn’t the largest one. It isn’t “banal” to point out what wasn’t stated in a conversation with over 125 comments.
It seems to me, pointing out underlying causes to population reduction, rather than simply pointing to a predator, which, had achieved population equilibrium in prior times, is adding to the conversation. Or, was it a given to all commenters here that the most limiting factor of an animal population is food source, and they just didn’t mention it and looked towards less important causes for the cod plight?
Again, Caleb, this isn’t a criticism. You seem to be rather open to alternate ideas and perspectives, as opposed to some others, here. But, towards others, I find it bit disingenuous to ask for simplification and clarification and then when it is offered to say the contribution was banal. I guess Lat failed because he simplified too much when others didn’t understand what he was saying. Because, God knows expecting people to catch an inference, when they appear knowledgeable on the subject is just too much to ask. tsk.
Latitude says:
June 14, 2013 at 9:34 am (
Latitude, if you believe that about me, you’ll believe anything … I’ve spent a lifetime fishing rivers, streams, and the ocean. I know which fish go upriver to spawn, and which fish stay in the ocean to spawn. You misunderstood my words. I may be in my dotage as some say, but I haven’t forgotten which are which. Cod migrating upriver? Give me a break, nobody’s that dumb.
This is why I ask folks to quote my words if they object to them. Then we can all understand what you might be objecting to. I can defend what I’ve written and am happy to do so.
I can’t defend your egregious twisting of my words, when you neglect to mention what you’re bitching about.
Speaking of currents, one thing I learned in this discussion is how dependent the cod are on the currents. I hadn’t realized that each separate “stock” travels up-current, sometimes a few hundred miles, to its own separate spawning grounds.
After the eggs hatch, the larvae are carried by the current towards their nursery grounds. There they mature into juveniles, and then swim to their feeding grounds. That’s why each separate cod stock has its own spawning site—it’s the site where the currents take the larvae to the right place so they can complete the cycle.
However, that also means that if the currents should shift for some period of time, say from the Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation, or just from the generally changeable nature of ocean currents, the larvae would not end up in the place where the conditions are the best for their development (too cold/too hot/too salty/too fresh, etc.)
One thing that has always amazed me is the wildly mutable nature of oceanic ecosystems. On land, a deer has one or two fawns. If the population is knocked back, it takes years to recover.
In the ocean, on the other hand, if there is a favorable year for some oceanic creature, it can go from being a minor bit player in the ecosystem to completely dominating it, in a single year. So while deer numbers might increase from 100 to 150 in a good year, in the ocean a species’ numbers might go from 100 to 100,000 in one year.
This “boom and bust” nature of oceanic populations has good and bad aspects. The good is that given years with favorable conditions, populations can rebuild quickly. The downside is that the whole ecological network of a given part of the ocean can change quickly, and sometimes not in a favorable way for a given species.
Around 1970, the third year I fished commercially I got a job on an anchovy boat out of Moss Landing, in Monterrey Bay. John Steinbeck wrote of “Cannery Row” in Monterrey, where they processed sardines for decades until the population had crashed, a couple of decades before that time, in the early fifties.
The old Italian guys in the crew had fished for sardines back in the day, and watched them disappear. I remember one night, we had caught maybe ten tonnes of anchovies, and brailed them into the forty-foot open steel whaleboat we towed behind to load with anchovies. We were in mid-ocean, with the whaleboat tied next to our fishing boat, moving fish from the net into the whaleboat.
Suddenly, one of the old guys, a hard-working and very savvy fisherman seventy years old that was a total inspiration to me as a young man of twenty and some, shocked all of us by jumping from the gunwale of the fishing boat straight into the interior of the whaleboat.
He landed on ten tonnes of anchovies, of course, and sank into the living mass up to his thighs. He looked around and grabbed one of the hundreds of thousands of identical anchovies. “Sardine!”, he yelled, “It’s’a sardine!” and he held up a fish that from ten feet away looked just like an anchovy to my untutored eye.
But indeed it was a sardine, and the crew was electrified, and wondered if finally the sardines might come back. The old guy looked all around him in the mass of anchovies, but even he couldn’t find even one more sardine.
Of course, now we understand much more about the alteration between sardines and anchovies as the Pacifiic Decadal Oscillation ebbs and fills. And indeed, six years or so after the old man spotted that solitary sardine, the PDO shifted, and the sardines did indeed return … although the recent PDO shift in the other direction means they’ll likely have to cede the turf again. I always did wonder, though … what was one single sardine doing in a school of hundreds and hundreds of tonnes of anchovies?
I bring this up as another instance of the profound effect that subtle shifts of currents and winds can have on entire oceanic ecosystems.
w.
Willis, the conversation was about dams reducing the cods food….
no matter how many times I said “food” you didn’t have a clue what cod eat
…and even less clue what the dams did to their food
Yes cod are migratory fish, but no one built dams between the gulf and the ocean…
…the dams didn’t block the cod
BTW, that study was about salmon, sturgeon, eels, shad, herring, all of them….
and it specifically mentioned the effect it had on cod
“This is why I ask folks to quote my words”
“Um … because inter alia, the study is about salmon and sturgeon, and how they are impacted by dams?”
“Thanks, latitude. I truly don’t understand your attitude. You send me something about the migratory fishes (salmon and sturgeon) in the rivers of Maine.”
“What is your point? That salmon and sturgeon don’t do well when their inshore habitat is trashed?”
not one word about the food that cod eat..and the effect the dams are having on their food
…you didn’t have a clue
“”Willis Eschenbach says:
June 14, 2013 at 8:49 am
Gosh … you mean that dams and overfishing lead to the demise of migratory fish? I’d never realized that. I can’t thank you enough, Latitude, for finding that missing piece of the puzzle and bringing it to light. You’re a freakin’ genius for noticing that dams reduce the numbers of migratory fish …
…
Y’know, this is the third time you’ve posted this historic news, Latitude.
At some point, you’re gonna realize that most folks here actually knew that dams reduce the number of migratory fish before the news arrived at your doorstep.
If they didn’t, they realized it the first time you posted your elementary-school-level treatise on the subject.
i suppose, however, some folks might have needed another dose of your stunning simplicity. So perhaps it was good that you posted the same thing a second time.
Now, on the third time, I think I finally got it. Let me see if I understand what you are saying.
DAMS … REDUCE … MIGRATORY … FISH … NUMBERS
Like I said, that’s a real surprise … can’t thank you enough for highlighting that shocking news.
Can you join us in the 21st century now? Because most of us learned all of that fifty years ago, for me I think it was in the sixth grade where we covered dams and fish ladders and salmon and other migratory fish. We went on a field trip in the yellow school bus to the Coleman Fish Hatchery that year and they explained it all to us … and did a better job of it than your citation, if I recall correctly, or perhaps that was just because we could see the salmon.”””
Latitude says:
June 14, 2013 at 2:11 pm
Willis, the conversation was about dams reducing the cods food….
no matter how many times I said “food” you didn’t have a clue what cod eat
…and even less clue what the dams did to their food……
quote, quote, quote, quote……..
=========================================
QED
Winds and currents are probably not important to what Lat was saying.
J.
You pasted this:
This has led to an increase in cod populations. According to NMFS, cod stocks on Georges Bank and the Gulf of Maine are rebuilding to target levels, and the Gulf of Maine stock is no longer considered overfished.
An increase to target levels seems significant.
But yet you pasted something that indicates that stocks are rebuilding to target levels. Why do they now have enough to eat?
WHAT????
Many are arguing that the decline isn’t due to overfishing. How on earth could you now realize this?
Latitude:
I ask that you not be rude to people who are being very patient, in my humble opinion, with your somewhat bewildering use of the English language. You may think you are making yourself perfectly clear, but if you reread your words I think you will spot or place or two where a bit of self-editing might have been helpful.
OK. If I’ve caught your drift, you now are focused on the fact dams on rivers can effect the ecosystem of cod, even though cod do not migrate up rivers. Yes. This is true. I don’t think anyone has said it isn’t true.
What I would like to stress is that the rivers have been improved, salt marshes have been protected, and numerous other steps been taken, all aimed at improving the general health of the ecology. however cod stocks don’t bounce back. As you point out, populations of other sea-creatures such as eels also keep falling.
What you seem to be saying is that even more drastic measures need to be taken, on the land, to help the sea. More dams need to be taken down, and so forth. Am I correct?
What I would like to suggest is that we have done a half decent job, on land, but are continuing to dredge-net the sea bottom, which utterly deranges the ecology off shore. I think we ought consider letting stuff grow back on the bottom for a bit, and see what happens.
Are you saying removing dams ought to come first? Are you saying dredge-nets scouring the bottom isn’t an important factor? Just curious.
wobble, no where did I say “huge surge in cod populations”
Yes, I pasted that….it was a direct quote from the link in the preceeding post….that no one read.
It was not my words, “it was a quote”….
Caleb says:
June 14, 2013 at 3:39 pm
Latitude:
I ask that you not be rude to people who are being very patient, in my humble opinion,
=====
Please point out where I have been rude….
…or is it that you’re so used to Willis being rude you don’t notice him any more?
Caleb, all I’m saying is that cod go where the food is. No food, no cod…
…The dams did away with their food
I assumed I was having a conversation with people that are knowledgeable on the subject…You can’t have it both ways….
Willis says I’m talking down to him…too simplistic too slow
“Willis Eschenbach says:
June 14, 2013 at 8:35 am
Since I’ve known what is in your grade-school-level citation for decades, and I already told you that”
and you are saying I’m talking over your head….too involved and too fast
” Caleb says:
June 14, 2013 at 9:16 am
I’m pretty confused by what you are saying about the migrations of cod. ”
Anyone knowledgeable on the subject would be able to make the connection between low temp tolerance, food, dams, LIA, etc
…and it’s obvious if either one of you read the links I provided….it went way over your heads
Good grief. What was the point of the pasting the quote? You didn’t write anything under the quote, and you didn’t address the quote prior to your paste.
You haven’t been clear at all in this thread.
We now know that you’re claiming cod populations are low and remaining low because of dams (and pollution?) on/in New England rivers. That the dams (and pollution) diminished the cod’s food supply and continues to greatly constrain the cod’s food supply. Is this correct? Is this your claim?
Caleb says:
June 14, 2013 at 3:39 pm
Latitude:
I ask that you not be rude to people who are being very patient, in my humble opinion, with your somewhat bewildering use of the English language. You may think you are making yourself perfectly clear, but if you reread your words I think you will spot or place or two where a bit of self-editing might have been helpful.
OK. If I’ve caught your drift, you now are focused on the fact dams on rivers can effect the ecosystem of cod, even though cod do not migrate up rivers. Yes. This is true. I don’t think anyone has said it isn’t true. ……….
=========================================================
Caleb, as far as the rudeness goes, it’s a give and take. I certainly would have been much less patient than Latitude.
It isn’t that anyone said it was or wasn’t true. No one did. But, they did take an antagonistic attitude to the messenger. Which, is bizarre and illogical. It’s not the seals, it’s not humans, it’s the fact that there isn’t a good food source for the cod. I don’t believe Lat is advocating tearing up dams. He’s simply stating what is.
As far as the food sources returning. …. maybe. But, that never guarantees the animals will return. Consider the polar bear. They were Grizzleys which got separated by an ice age. Today, there are no physical limitations for the polar bears. They can go back to being Grizzes at their leisure. But, they don’t. They don’t generally prey upon the moose or other critters like Grizzes do. They went and found other places to be. So did the cod.
wobble says:
June 14, 2013 at 4:20 pm
You haven’t been clear at all in this thread.
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wobble, I apologize….I assume if I know how to do something, everyone else does too
copy and paste the first line into goggle
Not New England Rivers, where did you get that one?….we were talking specifically about the Gulf of Maine
Food is the limiting factor for the Gulf of Maine
…if this tread gets back to cod and fisheries, I’ll check back in
wobble says:
June 14, 2013 at 4:20 pm
Good grief. What was the point of the pasting the quote? You didn’t write anything under the quote, and you didn’t address the quote prior to your paste.
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In days long ago, in a different time at WUWT, things didn’t have to be written to be understood. It was assumed the thread was followed. You have to go up to what Lat stated, and reference above to what was stated in response and then back up to what caused the response. Cntrl “F” is your friend. No worries, it’s just a different time and style.
Latitude:
How have you been rude? Well, to be so instantaneously and vocally certain your views are correct and others are incorrect, when dealing with a subject of any sort of complexity, is rude. It is even rude when the person you are speaking with is very likely misinformed. Even if the fellow goes “Duh,” or exclaims “Gwarsh!” like Goofy, it is best to give them the benefit of the doubt, if only because it sure is embarrassing to be wrong in a debate with a moron, even if it only happens once in your life.
When you are debating with Willis Eschenbach you are debating someone few here would call a moron. He might call himself that, about a few of the misadventures in his life, however he is a person who can make most any misadventure into a learning experience. Perhaps you didn’t know who you were debating with, but if you are at all interested I suggest going to the very top of the right hand side bar, plugging in “Willis Eschenbach” into the “search” box, and spending a while reading stuff he has written. Before too long I think you’d start to see he has an amazing and tremendous set of qualifications, when it comes to discussing the sea.
Now let us look at your resume.
As far as can see your qualifications to talk about this subject are that you have read a pamphlet NOAA put out, and also went on a field trip, some years ago. Have I missed something? Feel free to toot your own horn.
In any case, no one here should have to say, as if it was a sort of veiled threat, “Do you know who I am?” Willis gets respect not because his name is “Willis,” but because of the insights he brings to discussions. As best we can, we try to put our vanity and our fat egos aside, and focus on the details of an issue or topic. Admittedly it can be hard, when politics get involved, but even then we try to stick to the issues and not get sidetracked by ego-stuff that is off the point.
It is merely good manners, and proper civil procedure.
You may now ask me what sidetrack you got off on. I will say it is a sidetrack to focus on whether Willis did or did not say codfish migrate up rivers. In fact it is one of the most ludicrous and absurd sidetracks ever. Not that I minded it. For some reason the absurdity of the suggestion tickled me, and I needed a good laugh.
RE: James Sexton says:
June 14, 2013 at 4:31 pm
Regarding whether or not the food source can return, I think polar bears are a bad analogy for Cod. They are a single species, switching from moose to seals as a food source. When we are talking about Cod I think we are not talking about a single species moving to a new food source, but rather an entire ecosystem, the Grand Banks and Not-so-grand Banks, under duress. A better analogy would be the deep forests of Carolina pines northwest of Charleston right after Hurricane Hugo snapped all the trunks like match sticks, and turned a shaded, mossy, cool, damp forest floor to a baking hot desert, exposed to the blistering Carolina sunshine. It is the entire ecosystem, and not a single species, that goes into shock.
A bad forest fire, one that involves the tree tops, does the same thing. Right afterwards you would swear the place could never recover. A whole bunch of plants and critters becomes locally extinct, as a whole new bunch of plants and critters invade. Then there is a whole succession of ecosystem changes, until at long last you are back to that forest of pine. Nature has an amazing ability to heal itself, and to recover from shocks as devastating as the explosion of Mount Saint Helen.
Now, as Willis described the effect of drag-netting, it is sort of the same effect as a forest fire, however on the Banks nature never has time to recover before the next fire comes along. Before the seaweed, crabs and deep-water clams can regrow the next drag net comes plowing by, over and over again.
As we have talked about the food sources for Cod on the Banks, we have drifted rather far afield, I fear, because we have headed up to the headwaters of rivers in Maine, and have forgotten a lot of the food sources are home-grown, on the Banks themselves. The water out there is not blue; it is green, the plankton is so rich.
To look too far afield, and not look at the Banks themselves, is a bit like ignoring the charred tree-trunks all around you after a forest fire, and pointing at a distant mountain as the cause of local extinctions.
At the very least they ought to have an experimental area where no drag-netting is allowed, and a before-and-after study of how that area changes once the bottom isn’t constantly churned and re-churned by plowing nets. My hypothesis would be that the ecosystem would recover, and pictures of the seabottom in the area of the experiment would be radically different than pictures outside the area, even after a year, and the differences would only grow as year followed year.
It seems so logical to me that I wonder if such an experiment has already been done. Didn’t they stop fishing altogether in Canada, for a while? Did they take before and after pictures of the sea bottom?
It is a bit frightening because it seems like yesterday to be personally able to look back over fifty years ago and remember shoals of bait fish and the gulls, terns mackerel and pollack just going wild on the surface. Pogies so thick that when they ran into coves they would deplete the oxygen and make an ungodly rotten mess and smell that would gag a maggot. WIllis, a pogy kill makes Russian river on the Kenai smell like a sweet tea rose.
I do believe that there is something to the observation that the bait fish are gone and this was the easy food for the cod. We fished with clams or jigged a foot and a half off the bottom. Like halibut which you would think were one sided stick to the bottom fish, they would follow the bait even up to the surface. When you opened them up to see what they were eating it was clear that when the bait fish were in they were full of them. They were also opportunistic feeders. No bait fish and they have had to make due. The depletion of the bait fish by over fishing has to have effected the success and speed of the recovery.
Like three men each grabbing a part of the elephant, each can argue all they want about the significance of the part that they hold dear but relax it is still an elephant. We need to stand back and put all of the information together to understand how we find ourselves in a place we would have preferred to have avoided. We need to make good decisions and consider the humans that are suffering from the tragedy as well as the fishes. There is a balance here too.
There is hope, on June 6th there was a wildly successful sturgeon tagging operation on the Saco River. It was reported in the Portland Press Herald. One was 7 feet long. There was a good number of short nose too. These rivers can recover. The damage we have done in 350+ years will not reverse itself over night or even in several life times. Sometimes wisdom is gained by making or observing a mistake.
There is occasional good news but my days will run out before the recovery is robust. I think we should be a wiser species at that time.
Cheers!