The AMO, Codfish, Seals and Fishermen

Only remotely related to climate change, but perhaps related to politics polluting universities, this essay floats ideas concerning our nations fisheries, and fishes for feedback from WUWT readers.

Guest essay by Caleb Shaw

When I was just a small child in the 1950’s the United States stubbornly clung to having a mere three-mile-limit, and Russian fishermen could come quite close to our shores with boats loaded with spying equipment.  They also overfished the Grand Banks and our other offshore waters with deep, bottom-churning dragnets to such a degree the codfish population crashed.  Even when the three-mile-limit was pushed far off shore, the codfish never came back.

The fishermen have taken a lot of heat for the failure of the codfish to return, and university biologists have worked hand in hand with paper-shuffling bureaucrats in Washington, far from the briny swells and crying gulls, and these lubbers tell sea-going men, men who know the sea like the back of their hands, what to do about the sea.

The fishermen have no choice but obey the bosses in high places, and their fishing has been cut back more and more.  It has not made a lick of difference.  In fact, if you wanted to use absurd logic, you could say the situation proves that the less you fish the less fish there are.  Either that or you could say that whenever Washington gets involved, things get screwed up.

In actual fact there are three main reasons the codfish population hasn’t come back, despite the fact a single mother codfish lays over a million eggs.

The first reason is that the Atlantic goes through a cycle, roughly sixty years long, called the AMO,  (Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation,) and in a simplistic way this suggests that the best breeding conditions for a codfish only comes around every sixty years.  Right now we are back to the conditions of 1953, the year I was born.

In actual fact the shifting positions of warm water and cold water created by the AMO mean that there are different places in the North Atlantic, which, every year, may be having their peak year for breeding codfish.

You will please notice that fishermen have no control over the AMO. Even if there was a population explosion of cod, there is another harvester of cod besides fishermen:  Seals.

Seals happen to be very cute, and they started being protected when their soulful eyes touched people back in the 1970’s.  Recently their population explosion has gotten out of hand. For example, in 1994 on Muskeget Island there were 19 grey seals, and by 2011 it was difficult to count them all; there were between 3500 and 3800. The population of Grey Seals in Massachusetts alone has passed 15,000, and the population of Harbor Seals in New England has passed 100,000.  (Read More:  http://www.talkingfish.org/newengland-fisheries/booming-new-england-seal-population-creates-a-management-challenge

Even if there were only 100,000 seals in New England, if they each ate five codfish a day, that would a million codfish every two days.  That adds up pretty quickly. We are talking a sizable catch of 182.5 million codfish per year.

The seals will not obey the environmentalists who tell the fishermen to fish less, even though they owe their lives to environmentalists, for rather than fish less, the seals fish more and more.  What is especially annoying to fishermen, who are not allowed to shoot seals, is that the seals like to follow boats and steal fish right out of the nets.

Is this a return to natural conditions?  Not really, because for thousands of years, long before the “white man” came, the natural predator of seals was Native Americans.  Native Americans had really neat sea-going canoes; dugouts made of the trunks of huge white pines, and hunted for not only seals, but also whales (though likely the baby whales were preferred.)

Even the most ancient of known mound-building Native American people, the Red Paint People, who lived north of New England, had swordfish bills in their graves, and, because swordfish lack swim-bladders and sink to the bottom rather than floating to the shore, this is taken as indirect evidence that, even as long ago a ten thousand years ago, (before Stonehenge in England,) seagoing humans hunted our shores.  In other words, this may be the first time in ten thousand years seals are not hunted.

What other natural predator may have existed, ten thousand years ago, which hunted seals?  Evidence is scant, however a subspecies of polar bear may have roamed this far south, as the seas rose after the last ice age, and covered the ancient shorelines.

The only predator we are sure of is the Great White Shark.  And now that seal populations are booming, such scary sharks are becoming more common off Cape Cod.  For the first time since 1936 a swimmer was attacked, last summer.

That single attack made people think more about culling the population of seals than the suffering of hundreds of fishermen. Likely this occurred because people are greedy, and tourism brings in money, and news of swimmers being eaten by Great White Sharks is bad for business. Unfortunately, besides the tourists brought in by whale watching, there are tourists brought in by seal watching, and, because seals are cute while sharks are downright ugly, some think the Great White Sharks are the ones who ought be culled.

Perhaps we ought bring in a population of polar bears.  They are cute, and eat seals, and people feel all warm and cozy when the polar bear population goes up, and, if a few swimming tourists got eaten, well; you can’t make an omelet without breaking a few eggs.

You’ll notice nobody talks much about 182.5 million codfish getting devoured.  Why not? The answer is obvious.  Ever look a codfish in the face?  They are most definitely not cute. (Nor are most of the fishermen, whose livelihoods depend on codfish.)

I hate to sound cynical, but it seems to me a lot of the university biologists, rather than basing their conclusions on science, are basing conclusions, (which usually conclude fishermen should make less money by fishing less,) on a sort of political correctness founded upon money, votes, and, damn it all,  cuteness.

If university biologists were true scientists they would ignore all the nonsense of the non-scientific idiots ruling Washington, and study a third and likely most significant reason for the decline in codfish populations. This involves the fact that, when a mother codfish lays a million eggs, they are very tiny eggs.  In fact, for the first few weeks of a codfish’s life, codfish are basically plankton.  It is only after three or four weeks that they stop swirling about the surface, and sink to deeper depths and start behaving like a more ordinary minnow.

During the time they are plankton they are constantly growing. Many of the species of plankton about them do not grow. A tiny critter that devours countless codfish may need to turn tail a week later, because the cod it missed might turn around and eat it.

Consider the interesting computer modeling this might involve, for a geek at a university.  How often in nature does the predator become the prey?  Does a baby deer grow up to eat a mountain lion, or a baby rabbit grow up to eat foxes?  However, in the world of codfish, such is the case. What an interesting “K,” (The equilibrium constant,.) to play around with!

It just might be that the reason the Codfish population isn’t recovering is because a certain species of plankton is eating them all.  However, if only those million babies could be sheltered for only three weeks, and released, they would devour the very foe that has been depressing the codfish population, whereupon, without that foe devouring the smallest codfish, those smaller ones would also mature and eat the foe, until the foe became few and far between, and codfish populations would explode.

It should be noted that “white men” first came over here from Europe, perhaps as long ago as the 1300’s, for one risky but lucrative reason, and that reason was to fish for codfish.  There is much argument about when the fishing first started, but European fishermen certainly were sailing here before there were any “official” colonies. They had no desire to take over or start colonies, and only briefly landed here to build fires and dry their fish, before sailing back east to Europe. Why did they go to all that trouble? Because it was lucrative.  Why? Because, according to histories I’ve read, the codfish were so thick on the Grand Banks they didn’t need to use nets.  They used over-sized baskets, to dip the fish from the swarming sea.

Considering such a population boom is within the realm of possibility, and considering the good such a vast source of high-protein nourishment would be to a hungry humanity, I can only wonder over the fact not a single university smarty-pants has (as far as I know,) ever proposed a codfish hatchery.

We spend millions on hatcheries for trout and salmon, but not a penny on codfish hatcheries. We spend billions on stupid wind turbines that are counter-productive, but not a penny on a single boat for the reestablishment codfish populations.

What sort of boat?  It would be a boat designed to strip mother codfish of their million-plus eggs, milk father codfish of their sperm, keep the fertilized eggs and hatchling in a safe, predator-free environment until they were two, three or four weeks old, and then release them to the wild.  In other words: a hatchery.

I’m sure creating such a tub would involve all sorts of problems.  However isn’t that what universities are for?  To use our brilliant, young minds to solve problems?

I’m sure it would cost money, however considering the trillions spent on welfare, on unproductive losers, (on thin air,) a “mere” half billion spent building three or four small, sea-going hatcheries, and staffing them, (and many students would actually like wallowing about the Grand Banks and getting sea-sick, and do it for free,) might be an acceptable risk, as an investment.  Especially when there is at least a small chance that having actual hatcheries for codfish might restore populations to their former amazing levels.

I know young and naïve students would leap at the chance of supplying the hungry world with a huge stock of codfish, even if the scheme seemed a bit hare-brained to their pragmatic elders.

I also know these same students are sick to death of having to affix “Global Warming” to the final paragraph of each and every report, whether it be about the mating habits of nematodes, or about when dogs howl at the moon, simply to get a parking place at the college cafeteria.

Kids are not as stupid as we old geezers sometimes think, you know.

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half tide rock
June 13, 2013 7:46 pm

My take.
Government all excited about the 200 mile limit decides to encourage super trawl fishing and creates a tax incentive to get boats built. Syndicates are formed and there is a building boom in the 1970’s. Many Super trawlers are built and the technology evolves to fish areas not previously accessible. The super trawlers are too successful soon the catches plummet. There are many unhappy investors and big mortgages. Being innovative they started to look at mid water and under utilized species. Pollock, Mackerel , Herring, Menhaden. The Eastern European countries had factory ships that moved into Maine to buy the bait fish and render it into protein. These were our bait fish!!!!!!!!. The herring and menhaden consumed the plankton that ate the larval fish and cod eggs. None of these species have recovered.Sonar and the trawls evolved so not a fish escaped. Soon the fish landings couldn’t justify the cost of the factory ships and they left. We were pretty much cleaned out. Yay to using Tax incentives to manipulate poor economic decisions! Ring a bell?
It is an old saw but it plays well every where you look.
My impression is that the spiny dog fish moved into the niche the cod left. The lobsters have thrived without he pressure of being eaten by the cod. (From my porch I watch the growing rafts of eider ducks consume amazing numbers of small lobsters so there is a balance) Dog fish are a scourge unless you eat fish and chips. They are now targeted but they now dominate the places where we caught summer cod. It will be a tough up hill battle for cod to regain it’s place in the ecosystem.
The Federal Government is now demanding recreational salt water fishing licenses. We should actually be demanding competency testing to weed out federal employees who might be inclined to proposing more really bad policies…..How does it go?… “After creating the problem we will campaign against it.” And a Fifty bucks reward for the name of the person who dreamed up putting alcohol in gasoline for boats.
A couple of years ago I was in Homer, Alaska and I caught a glimpse of the same fisheries mental disease there. I only hope that some one has the inclination to look at the New England and Maritime fisheries mess and take away a lesson. Not hopeful though.
sigh!

June 13, 2013 7:51 pm

RE: vigilantfish says:
June 13, 2013 at 7:14 pm
I agree with much you say so well.
Considering some in Washington are proposing banning fishing altogether, perhaps a compromise could be reached, where only line-fishing is allowed.
I don’t mean to sound like a Luddite either. However you can’t help it, in this situation. That is why Willis’s analogy of cutting down a whole forest to “harvest” deer (as being like gouging up the sea-bottom to “harvest” cod,) is so excellent.
Modern boats have power fishermen couldn’t even dream of, fifty years ago. No man could pull in the giant nets they now drag with.
When we wonder if dragging might be bad we sound like Luddite left-wing-loonies, against power created by fossil fuels. However there is nothing wrong with power. The more we have the better off we are, unless we misuse that power.

June 13, 2013 8:13 pm

RE: Latitude says:
June 13, 2013 at 7:35 pm:
Sorry I am causing you to head wall.
This may crack the plaster, but try to stay calm.
I agree with you when you say, “Cod stock will rebound in minutes when they fix the real problems.” But who are “they?” And what exactly is “the real problem?”
Is “they” NOAA, or fishermen, or the codfish themselves?
At this point, after reading all the comments, I am not sure what “the real problem” is, but if I had to vote I’d vote that dragging huge nets that utterly disturb the undersea ecology is a large part of “the real problem.”
I could be wrong. I’d love to hear from a fisherman who drags a huge net.
I’d also like to hear from people who know about the microscopic world codfish live in, during their first few weeks, and who can share insights about the ecology of that world.
However now it is time for bed. Thanks again to all who have commented. This has been exactly the sort of lively discussion I hoped my essay would stir up. I’ll probably fall asleep purring.

vigilantfish
June 13, 2013 9:02 pm

Caleb,
I’ve really enjoyed your insights and this thread. It’s my bedtime, too, but I just had to respond to you comment that “I’d also like to hear from people who know about the microscopic world codfish live in, during their first few weeks, and who can share insights about the ecology of that world.” This has been one of the central mysteries of fisheries science since 1914, when Johan Hjort published his seminal paper on “The Fluctuations in the Great Fisheries of Northern Europe”, which introduced the information that one of the most important causes of fish population fluctuations is the success in reproduction in a given year. Some years are lousy, and some are super-excellent, and to this day scientists still cannot explain nor predict how and why this occurs. Sadly, research into this question got sidelined by the postwar focus on fishing theory and modelling the effects of fishing on populations, resulting in a mess analogous to climate ‘science’ Only in the wake of numerous stock collapses has more focus been given to the ecology and evolutionary genetics of fish stocks; unfortunately, as the fisheries have become less economically important funding has fallen, typical of short-sighted governments.
And I agree fully with half tide rock: government interference lies at the bottom of the collapses: tax subsidies and policy biased toward big industry and industrialization wiped out the fish and common sense.

Editor
June 13, 2013 9:17 pm

Latitude says:
June 13, 2013 at 6:53 pm

BTW one last thing…..which won’t do one bit of good if you don’t read it 😉
There’s more to fisheries than just removing fish….
http://opensiuc.lib.siu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1030&context=jcwre

Thanks, latitude. I truly don’t understand your attitude. You send me something about the migratory fishes (salmon and sturgeon) in the rivers of Maine.
What is your point? That salmon and sturgeon don’t do well when their inshore habitat is trashed?
I’ve been a commercial salmon fisherman in the Bering Sea, as well as up and down the west coast of the US. There’s not a whole lot I don’t know about the lifestyle of the salmon, both on and offshore.
What you cited is the type of stuff I read decades ago, it’s grade school level. Yes, it’s true … but it is also trivial, unless there is some point in there I’m not seeing.
But since you have pointedly neglected to say either WHY you cited that study, or WHAT your point might be, or HOW I could find the mystery message …
… then I was just a fool to follow your citation. I have learned nothing, except that as a teacher you’re useless. You don’t say what the lesson is. The advice that the cited study gives is that if you want more migratory fish in your rivers and streams, you’ll need to remove the dams …
This is your great insight? This is supposed to be news?
If you have a point, first MAKE YOUR POINT. Then indicate your citation, and exactly what it is that you are citing it for.
Randomly tossing out citations … interesting teaching style, but it doesn’t work worth a damn with me.
Now, I’ve done a reasonable bit of teaching myself. I’ve written training manuals based on my teaching. There’s a Sufi saying that goes something like “Some say a teacher need this, and others say a teacher needs that. But what a teacher really needs is whatever the student needs.”
I’m willing to be your student if you have something to teach and can teach it. Truly I am. I’ve learned a lot from a lot of people … but you have to have a clear message, it has to be the right message, and you have to be able to get it across.
To date you’ve shown no sign of any of that … random studies on salmon and sturgeon?
When I was 21, I was making my living commercial fishing. I was both catching sturgeon in commercial fishing nets in Monterrey Bay, and studying their lifestyle when I wasn’t fishing so I could understand why they look like living fossils, and carefully untangling each one and returning it alive to the ocean, they were illegal to catch.
And I’ve trolled for salmon commercially from a sailboat, and skippered a 60′ steel salmon troller out of San Francisco, and gill netted for salmon in Bristol Bay, and worked on restoring their inshore habitat, and studied the complete lifestyle of the salmon in great detail when I attended the Kenai River Guide Academy, which I was required to do before I could become a sport salmon fishing guide on the Kenai in Alaska …
And of course, as a self-educated man who has never stopped learning, I’ve studied and studied and studied as I’ve fished and fished and fished. For most of my life, I packed my Encyclopedia Britannica with me wherever I moved, including the South Pacific. I’m an education addict, always willing to learn.
So spare me the grade school treatises on salmon and sturgeon, there’s a good fellow. I’m happy to learn from you … but you’ll have to tell me something I don’t know …
The good news is, there’s much more that I don’t know than there is that I do know—so telling me something I don’t know shouldn’t be too hard …
Regards,
w.

Hal Dall
June 13, 2013 9:20 pm

New “green energy” idea to save the planet: Catch the seals and press out the oil for vehicles and fishing boats! Bio-Die-Seal!

JimF
June 13, 2013 9:49 pm

Caleb: Great stuff on your part, and some absolutely terrific comments. Having been involved in Trout Unlimited, hearing fishery biologists, sportsmen and commercial fishermen talking and complaining about lake trout in particular, I conclude there is probably only weather that attracts more passioned commentary than fish. I would like to see the codfish return; they make a great chowder, but today the price is exorbitant. And I think they are a lot cuter than seals!

Latitude
June 14, 2013 4:37 am

Willis Eschenbach says:
June 13, 2013 at 9:17 pm
Thanks, latitude. I truly don’t understand your attitude. You send me something about the migratory fishes (salmon and sturgeon) in the rivers of Maine.
What is your point? That salmon and sturgeon don’t do well when their inshore habitat is trashed?
======
Good grief Willis, you’re the one with the attitude. You’d throw a royal hissy fit if someone told you that you didn’t do your homework or criticized your posts and accused you of attitude….stop reading my posts as attitude….I’m not giving you any
Start at the header “Historic Decline” and read that. Cod are considered migratory fish. Here’s one short paragraph….Cod feed on salmon, shad, and herring……….
“From 1600 to 1900, New England’s seemingly
inexhaustible supply of migratory fishes steadily
declined from west to east. The size of Maine’s
rivers and their distance from major urban centers
shielded the enormous runs of fish they naturally
sustained until widespread damming and clogging
of rivers and overfishing led to the demise of most
commercial salmon, shad and river herring fisheries
by 1870. The loss of prey upon which cod stocks
had foraged inshore each summer seems to have
caused their disappearance from the Gulf of Maine’s
estuarine and coastal waters from west to east after
impassable dams were constructed in the main stem
of large rivers running to the Gulf (Trefts 2006). “

Latitude
June 14, 2013 4:54 am

Caleb says:
June 13, 2013 at 8:13 pm
I agree with you when you say, “Cod stock will rebound in minutes when they fix the real problems.” But who are “they?” And what exactly is “the real problem?
=======
I assumed that you guys were not reading the links I posted….now, I realize you did read them, you just didn’t get it….
Cod have to have food…they are limited by food….obviously, one female cod can lay several million eggs in one season….
Pollution, dams, silting, etc limited their food supply….no food, cod stocks crash
Cod feed on salmon, shrimp, shad, herring, etc….dams stopped the herring, salmon, shad migrations…
No herring, salmon, shad, etc…….no cod
Notice, the age of cod caught is gradually increasing. Age 2 fish dropped to zero after the mesh size increase….but the age of fish caught has gradually increased…that tells you that they are not being replaced…if they were replaced you should have a fairly stable population of age 2-3 fish….they are not being replaced……they do not have enough food
That makes the population unsustainable…..that is why the NOAA is considering a moratorium
The NOAA can not ban dams and pollution….all they can do is ban fisherman….even though the kneejerk reaction is “overfishing”….the fishermen had nothing to do with it

Latitude
June 14, 2013 4:56 am

first…I apologize for this long post…..it might be better instead of links….that I post the relevant material
What do cod eat????……….
“From 1600 to 1900, New England’s seemingly
inexhaustible supply of migratory fishes steadily
declined from west to east. The size of Maine’s
rivers and their distance from major urban centers
shielded the enormous runs of fish they naturally
sustained until widespread damming and clogging
of rivers and overfishing led to the demise of most
commercial salmon, shad and river herring fisheries
by 1870. The loss of prey upon which cod stocks
had foraged inshore each summer seems to have
caused their disappearance from the Gulf of Maine’s
estuarine and coastal waters from west to east after
impassable dams were constructed in the main stem
of large rivers running to the Gulf (Trefts 2006).
Today, historic populations of migratory fish in the
Gulf of Maine are at a fraction of their historic levels.
Atlantic sturgeon numbers have plummeted, while
shortnose sturgeon populations are down 98 percent
and listed as endangered under the Endangered Species
Act (Smith 1997). Due largely to dams, Atlantic
salmon have lost more than 90 percent of their historic
spawning habitat in the Gulf of Maine. Sea-run brook
trout, which are still common in all the Canadian
maritime provinces, are now found in only a few small
Gulf streams that have been untouched by dams and
industrial use. Eel landings declined from 1.8 million
pounds in 1985 to 649,000 pounds in 2002 (Atlantic
States Marine Fisheries Commission 2000). In 2004,
the Atlantic States Marine Fisheries Council petitioned
the federal government to conduct a status review of
American eel populations due to their precipitous
decline. Eels are a relatively long lived species that may
live in freshwater up to 30 years and grow to five feet
in length before heading out into the Gulf of Maine on
their way to the Sargasso Sea. Due to their size, turbines
exact a heavy mortality on the downstream migration
of sexually mature eels. In a 1998 study, the U.S. Fish
and Wildlife Service determined that eels may have
been eliminated from 81 percent of their historic habitat
from Connecticut to Maine (Atlantic States Marine
Fisheries Commission 2000). The once abundant river
herrings have continued to decline remarkably as well.
Alewife landings in Maine declined from 3.4 million
pounds in 1970 to less than 1 million today (Maine
Department of Marine Resources 2005). “

Gail Combs
June 14, 2013 6:11 am

Caleb, I have a solution to the problem of low codfish numbers and a high number of seals that should get no flack from the touchy feely environmentalists (TFE). It is really quite simple.
1. Polar bears eat seals.
2. Polar bears are becoming a problem in Alaska/Canada because they raid town dumps (and houses.) link
3. The TFE will not allow culling of bears ( or seals) but do allow live trapping and relocation of nuisance bears. link
4. Relocate the polar bears to CAPE COD! Ted Kennedy is now dead so he is not around to lead the NIMBYS (But you might have to worry about Mitt Romney.)
5. The method to use is the one used in North Carolina.
We have had Red Wolves released, Coyotes (A friend trapped one with a University ear tag and was paid $250 for the tag and told to forget he saw it) link Jaguars (Someone saw a pair in a pickup just before their release in NC, hubby saw one jump the entire width of the road and several neighbors have also reported sightings.) link and mountain lions (cougars) link
The key is to DENY, DENY DENY “No Ma’am, you are mistaken a polar bear did not eat your toddler. It was a big white dog.”
(Now if we could only train the Poley Bears to eat politicians)

wobble
June 14, 2013 6:35 am

lattitude,
1. What is your claim?
Are you claiming that fish populations have declined because of dams and industry located near northeastern rivers?
Because if dams and industry caused the population declines, then why are you now claiming that Maine and other locations have now seen some huge surge in population of cod? Did the dams and industry suddenly shut down?
Are you refusing to state your claim(s) because you don’t want to be pinned down making a claim that can be disproven?
2. If this is your claim, then how do you support this claim? You can’t simply assert something and expect scientific minds to accept it whole-cloth simply because you attribute the claim to some group that believes this. You haven’t provided any analyses or data that support your claim.
Many of us on here are just like Willis, we are willing to be convinced if we presented with convincing data and analyses. You haven’t provided either.

June 14, 2013 7:00 am

Back before the steam engine started using coal to power things, and the first railways were built, just about every trickle of water off a cow’s back was dammed in New Hampshire. Water power ruled, and the ruins of old dams and mills are scattered all over the place. Pollution was also far worse, due to the mills, and the Charles River in Boston used to change color due to paint factories on the Somerville side.
An amazing amount of hard work has been done cleaning up that mess, in the last 40 years, and a lot of work has been done removing unused dams and putting in fish ladders. While more could be done, I think if rivers were the main problem the crash in cod stocks would have occurred earlier, and would be reversed. Instead I am leaning towards thinking Willis is right, and trawl netting might be the chief culprit. Let me repeat what he stated:
“…It’s hard to express the damage (trawl netting) causes, but an analogy might help. Imagine that you were fishing for deer by dragging a giant net through the forest. Imagine that in addition to deer, the net sweeps up and kills foxes, rabbits, coyotes, raccoons, lizards, and all the other forest animals. In addition, of course, in the process it knocks down and destroys the trees, smashes the bushes, and fills the air with thick, choking dust …“
There seems too great a connection between the plunge in stocks and trawl netting to be a mere coincidence.
Considering we have spent 20 years trying all sorts of things to restore codfish populations, and nothing has worked, perhaps it is time to consider banning trawl nets. I am aware some big money is involved in big boats with big trawl nets, and big money talks in Washington DC, however if trawl nets were the problem, the rebound in the codfish population would increase the catch by a multiple of ten to twenty. Even selfish and greedy people who don’t give a hoot about the environment ought drool a bit, over a prospect like that.

Latitude
June 14, 2013 7:10 am

wobble….what are you talking about?
Cod populations decined because they don’t have enough to eat.
Where did you see I posted a “huge surge in cod populations”?
….oh, the drama
I stated my “claim” as you call it…..
I supported it in links…that provide data
This is like trying to convince someone that believes in global warming that it’s not.
You guys want to believe it’s due to overfishing….then there’s nothing anyone can say to show you differently………

Latitude
June 14, 2013 7:29 am

“While more could be done, I think if rivers were the main problem the crash in cod stocks would have occurred earlier, and would be reversed.”
====
Why Caleb?….the problems caused by the dams has not been reversed…the dams are still there causing the same problems
======
“There seems too great a connection between the plunge in stocks and trawl netting to be a mere coincidence.”
=======
Change “trawl netting” to harvesting and you have a winner….
Any harvesting when stocks are in this shape is going to have the same effect….
Say you put some goldfish in a pond..and you feed them heavily
Soon you have tons of goldfish and you can harvest a certain amount.
…stop feeding them and you can not harvest that same amount
If you did, you would soon end up with no goldfish
again, from the links…..
Dams
In the past three decades, meaningful steps have been
taken to make rivers in the Gulf of Maine more capable
of supporting fish populations. Due to the Clean Water
Act, poor water quality is not the limiting factor to fish
populations it once was. No longer do we see industrial
or municipal pollution creating anoxic barriers to fish
migration that was the norm in the Gulf’s larger rivers
only four decades ago. Today, both commercial and
recreational fisheries are better managed and habitat-
altering log drives are now just a part of folklore.
Amendments to the Federal Power Act have required
regulators to consider a broader range of public uses of
our rivers beyond just energy production when dams are
re-licensed. This has often resulted in better fish passage,
increased minimum flows and in rare cases, orders for
a dam to be removed. Despite these improvements,
virtually all native migratory fish populations in the
Gulf of Maine have continued to decline. A reliance on
unproven engineering schemes to mitigate the impacts
of dams continues to block the meaningful (self-
sustaining) restoration of migratory fish. In particular,
the cumulative impacts of dams continues to exact a
severe toll on migratory fish as regulators have largely
chosen to look at each dam independently, rather than
taking into consideration the whole configuration of
dams on a river. Since major rivers in the Gulf of Maine
average five or more main stem dams, the cumulative
impact issue is the major reason for the failure of most
migratory fish restoration efforts.

June 14, 2013 8:08 am

RE: Latitude:
Your NOAA source seems to be tooting it’s own horn a bit. All I can say is that we have salmon returning to rivers in New Hampshire where they haven’t been seen in a hundred years. The work is on-going. I’m quite certain numerous fish-ladders have been put in since the NOAA report you cite was written.
I’m not sure how old you are, but if you are over fifty you can remember how filthy rivers used to be. It had to be seen to be believed. If you saw it, you should know things are better for fish than they were.
Think about this sentence in your report: “Despite these improvements, virtually all native migratory fish populations in the Gulf of Maine have continued to decline. ”
Forgive me for being a cynic, but are they not saying, “Our focus on rivers hasn’t done a damn thing, but we are going to keep on focusing on rivers and not trawl nets, because the sawmill lobby has gotten small enough to ignore, while the trawl net lobby hasn’t quite shrunk small enough to ignore. In a few years, however, when they go out of business due to shrunken stocks, we will talk about banning all fishing including line-fishing, but will not ban party-boats, of course, because the tourist-trade lobby is huge.”
Bleeping Washington DC. In the end it will not be the Cod that go extinct; it will be the entire culture of New England fishermen.

Latitude
June 14, 2013 8:20 am

uh Caleb, cod are migratory….that’s why the Scandinavians and Basque ended up going from Iceland, to Greenland, to Labrador, to Martha’s Vineyard…the cod moved
====
Caleb said: Think about this sentence in your report: “Despite these improvements, virtually all native migratory fish populations in the Gulf of Maine have continued to decline. ”
=====
oh stop it…LOL you read what was said after that
====
Caleb said: I’m quite certain numerous fish-ladders have been put in since the NOAA report you cite was written.
====
Jesus man, read the link…I only posted one paragraph…it says and explains all of that
You can’t continue to harvest when you don’t feed them………..

Latitude
June 14, 2013 8:26 am

I’m not sure how old you are, but if you are over fifty you can remember how filthy rivers used to be. It had to be seen to be believed. If you saw it, you should know things are better for fish than they were.
======
Yes, that’s in the links I posted too….

vigilantfish
June 14, 2013 8:33 am

Latitude, you argue:
Notice, the age of cod caught is gradually increasing. Age 2 fish dropped to zero after the mesh size increase….but the age of fish caught has gradually increased…that tells you that they are not being replaced…if they were replaced you should have a fairly stable population of age 2-3 fish….they are not being replaced……they do not have enough food.
——————–
It’s good news if the age of fish is increasing, as cod should live to 20 or more years, and become more fecund with age. There is no such thing as a stable population of a given age of fish in a fish population. You can have a hugely successful spawning one year, due to newly hatched fry obtaining lots of food, the right climate conditions, and lack of predation, perhaps (we don’t know for sure, as such conditions cannot be predicted or effectively monitored). That same year class, once it starts reproducing at age 5, might produce very few fish. The age profile of long-lived fish populations vary over time. I believe Johan Hjort found that the 1903 year-class of herring dominated the catch of the North Sea fishery from about 1907-1913; subsequent years provided a much smaller portion of the catch. Eventually another big year-class came along
Also, somewhere above, you argued that the cod would come back if they could just get food, or pollution were cleaned up, citing the sheer abundance of their eggs. Oscar Sette, the American fisheries scientist, in the 1920s and early 1930s did a seminal study of New England mackerel populations and also mackerel embryology studies that provided the first clue as to how low is the survival rate of fertilized eggs. This has been confirmed by decades of subsequent studies. For cod, in a normal year, 1 adult is produced per million eggs spawned. Among the predators of the eggs are other planktonic organisms, the fry are eaten by smaller fish species that form in turn the food of adult cod – and adult cod themselves eat their own young indiscriminately.
+++++++
I agree with Caleb that other fisheries using trawl nets, even if they are not targetting cod, are probably preventing a recovery. Bleeping Washington DC and Ottawa, Ont.!

Editor
June 14, 2013 8:35 am

Latitude says:
June 14, 2013 at 4:37 am

Willis Eschenbach says:
June 13, 2013 at 9:17 pm

Thanks, latitude. I truly don’t understand your attitude. You send me something about the migratory fishes (salmon and sturgeon) in the rivers of Maine.
What is your point? That salmon and sturgeon don’t do well when their inshore habitat is trashed?

======
Good grief Willis, you’re the one with the attitude. You’d throw a royal hissy fit if someone told you that you didn’t do your homework or criticized your posts and accused you of attitude….stop reading my posts as attitude….I’m not giving you any
Start at the header “Historic Decline” and read that. Cod are considered migratory fish. Here’s one short paragraph….Cod feed on salmon, shad, and herring……….
“From 1600 to 1900, New England’s seemingly
inexhaustible supply of migratory fishes steadily
declined from west to east. The size of Maine’s
rivers and their distance from major urban centers
shielded the enormous runs of fish they naturally
sustained until widespread damming and clogging
of rivers and overfishing led to the demise of most
commercial salmon, shad and river herring fisheries
by 1870. The loss of prey upon which cod stocks
had foraged inshore each summer seems to have
caused their disappearance from the Gulf of Maine’s
estuarine and coastal waters from west to east after
impassable dams were constructed in the main stem
of large rivers running to the Gulf (Trefts 2006). “

I asked what your point is … you sent me the previous link, which I’d ALREADY READ at your request and found totally boring, banal, and without a new finding or original thought from cover to cover.
I told you, if you want to teach me or anyone something, you have to find something they DON’T KNOW.
Since I’ve known what is in your grade-school-level citation for decades, and I already told you that …
Then why on earth are you quoting it to me again? I just read that bumf, last time you recommended it.
Perhaps you need to read things twice to discover that you have known them for decades.
For me, once is enough … except in this case, where once was too many.
w.

Editor
June 14, 2013 8:49 am

Latitude says:
June 14, 2013 at 4:56 am

first…I apologize for this long post…..it might be better instead of links….that I post the relevant material
What do cod eat????……….

“From 1600 to 1900, New England’s seemingly
inexhaustible supply of migratory fishes steadily
declined from west to east. The size of Maine’s
rivers and their distance from major urban centers
shielded the enormous runs of fish they naturally
sustained until widespread damming and clogging
of rivers and overfishing led to the demise of most
commercial salmon, shad and river herring fisheries
by 1870.

Gosh … you mean that dams and overfishing lead to the demise of migratory fish? I’d never realized that. I can’t thank you enough, Latitude, for finding that missing piece of the puzzle and bringing it to light. You’re a freakin’ genius for noticing that dams reduce the numbers of migratory fish …

Y’know, this is the third time you’ve posted this historic news, Latitude.
At some point, you’re gonna realize that most folks here actually knew that dams reduce the number of migratory fish before the news arrived at your doorstep.
If they didn’t, they realized it the first time you posted your elementary-school-level treatise on the subject.
i suppose, however, some folks might have needed another dose of your stunning simplicity. So perhaps it was good that you posted the same thing a second time.
Now, on the third time, I think I finally got it. Let me see if I understand what you are saying.
DAMS … REDUCE … MIGRATORY … FISH … NUMBERS
Like I said, that’s a real surprise … can’t thank you enough for highlighting that shocking news.
Can you join us in the 21st century now? Because most of us learned all of that fifty years ago, for me I think it was in the sixth grade where we covered dams and fish ladders and salmon and other migratory fish. We went on a field trip in the yellow school bus to the Coleman Fish Hatchery that year and they explained it all to us … and did a better job of it than your citation, if I recall correctly, or perhaps that was just because we could see the salmon.
w.

Latitude
June 14, 2013 8:59 am

Willis said: Since I’ve known what is in your grade-school-level citation for decades, and I already told you that
=======
You did??….then why did you reply that it was about salmon and sturgeon? and not about cod? If you knew it was about cod not having enough to eat, why didn’t you say so?
=====================
Willis reply: You send me something about the migratory fishes (salmon and sturgeon) in the rivers of Maine.
What is your point? That salmon and sturgeon don’t do well when their inshore habitat is trashed?
======
BTW….that grade-school-level citation, that you’ve known about the decades, was reviewed and published….
“The loss of prey upon which COD stocks
had foraged inshore each summer seems to have
caused their disappearance from the Gulf of Maine’s
estuarine and coastal waters from west to east after
impassable dams were constructed in the main stem
of large rivers running to the Gulf (Trefts 2006).”

Editor
June 14, 2013 9:09 am

Latitude says:
June 14, 2013 at 8:20 am

uh Caleb, cod are migratory….that’s why the Scandinavians and Basque ended up going from Iceland, to Greenland, to Labrador, to Martha’s Vineyard…the cod moved

Ah, yes, the fishermen following the famous migrating cod on their centuries-long migration from Basque country to Martha’s Vineyard …
Here are the travels and travails of the codfish. Cod eggs and cod larvae drift from the spawning grounds to the nursery grounds. Juvenile cod migrate from the nursery grounds to the feeding grounds. And mature cod migrate back to the spawning grounds.
NONE of them migrate from Iceland to Greenland to Labrador and thence to Martha’s Vineyard … that’s just another Latitude fantasy. The cod didn’t move from Basque country to Martha’s Vineyard, they’ve been in Martha’s Vineyard for millennia … nor did the fishermen “follow” them there.
Instead, as is common with many fisheries, the nearby fisheries were fished first, and then people went looking further and further afield as local stocks dropped.
I do like the idea of migratory cod going from Iceland to America, early immigrants … maybe they were inspired by the Statue of Liberty. If they try it today, though, they’ll need a green card.
Teach on, my friend, teach on … your idea of teaching is great spectator sport.
Oh, by the way … after coyly bringing the subject up, you never did tell us what you do for a living. I’m guessing it’s not commercial fisherman …
w.
PS—Not only do cod not migrate once they are on their feeding grounds, except back to the spawning grounds, but they don’t wander all over the Atlantic followed by fishermen as you claim. The separate stocks don’t mix much, likely in part because they don’t migrate. As a result of them not migrating, we recognize separate, relatively independent stocks of cod.
The recognized stocks are:
Eastern Baltic Sea cod
Western Baltic Sea cod
Kattegat cod
North Sea and Skagerrak cod
Celtic Sea cod
Irish Sea cod
West Scotland cod
Rockall cod
Faroe Bank cod
Faroe Plateau cod
Icelandic cod
Arctic cod
Norwegian coastal cod
East Greenland cod
West Greenland cod
Labrador cod
Flemish Cap cod
Grand Bank cod
St. Pierre Bank cod
West Newfoundland cod
Gulf of St Laurence cod
Banquereau cod
Browns and Lahave Bank cod
Georges Bank cod

Latitude
June 14, 2013 9:09 am

Willis said: Gosh … you mean that dams and overfishing lead to the demise of migratory fish? I’d never realized that. I can’t thank you enough, Latitude, for finding that missing piece of the puzzle and bringing it to light. You’re a freakin’ genius for noticing that dams reduce the numbers of migratory fish …
DAMS … REDUCE … MIGRATORY … FISH … NUMBERS
Like I said, that’s a real surprise … can’t thank you enough for highlighting that shocking news.
===========
Willis you seem to be extremely confused….
There are no dams stopping the migration of cod….we are talking about cod.
No one built a dam between the Gulf of Maine and the ocean…
The dams are stopping the migration of the fish that the cod feed on. The cod move into the bay in the summer to feed on salmon, shad, herring, eels etc. It’s the cod’s food, that’s the migratory fish the dams are stopping from spawning and reproducing. The cod do not migrate up the rivers.
Without the numbers of food….no one is chumming the cod into the gulf in the summer.

Latitude
June 14, 2013 9:12 am

Willis, there are no distinct populations of same species cod….cod move out of the Gulf of Maine in the winter…and move back in in the summer…they move