Who Are You Going To Believe – The Government Climate Scientists or The Data?
By Dr David M.W. Evans (republished here with permission, PDF link below)
We check the main predictions of the climate models against the best and latest data. Fortunately the climate models got all their major predictions wrong. Why? Every serious skeptical scientist has been consistently saying essentially the same thing for over 20 years, yet most people have never heard the message – here it is, put simply enough for any lay reader willing to pay attention.
What the Government Climate Scientists Say
Figure 1: The climate models. If the CO2 level doubles (as it is on course to do by about 2070 to 2100), the climate models estimate the temperature increase due to that extra CO2 will be about 1.1°C × 3 = 3.3°C.i
The direct effect of CO2 is well-established physics, based on laboratory results, and known for over a century.ii
Feedbacks are due to the ways the Earth reacts to the direct warming effect of the CO2. The threefold amplification by feedbacks is based on the assumption, or guess, made around 1980, that more warming due to CO2 will cause more evaporation from the oceans and that this extra water vapor will in turn lead to even more heat trapping because water vapor is the main greenhouse gas. And extra heat will cause even more evaporation, and so on. This amplification is built into all the climate models.iii The amount of amplification is estimated by assuming that nearly all the industrial-age warming is due to our CO2.
The government climate scientists and the media often tell us about the direct effect of the CO2, but rarely admit that two thirds of their projected temperature increases are due to amplification by feedbacks.
What the Skeptics Say
Figure 2: The skeptic’s view. If the CO2 level doubles, skeptics estimates that the temperature increase due to that extra CO2 will be about 1.1°C × 0.5 ≈ 0.6°C.iv
The serious skeptical scientists have always agreed with the government climate scientists about the direct effect of CO2. The argument is entirely about the feedbacks.
The feedbacks dampen or reduce the direct effect of the extra CO2, cutting it roughly in half.v The main feedbacks involve evaporation, water vapor, and clouds. In particular, water vapor condenses into clouds, so extra water vapor due to the direct warming effect of extra CO2 will cause extra clouds, which reflect sunlight back out to space and cool the earth, thereby reducing the overall warming.
There are literally thousands of feedbacks, each of which either reinforces or opposes the direct warming effect of the extra CO2. Almost every long-lived system is governed by net feedback that dampens its response to a perturbation. If a system instead reacts to a perturbation by amplifying it, the system is likely to reach a tipping point and become unstable (like the electronic squeal that erupts when a microphone gets too close to its speakers). The earth’s climate is long-lived and stable— it has never gone into runaway greenhouse, unlike Venus — which strongly suggests that the feedbacks dampen temperature perturbations such as that from extra CO2.
What the Data Says
The climate models have been essentially the same for 30 years now, maintaining roughly the same sensitivity to extra CO2even while they got more detailed with more computer power.
- How well have the climate models predicted the temperature?
- Does the data better support the climate models or the skeptic’s view?
Air Temperatures
One of the earliest and most important predictions was presented to the US Congress in 1988 by Dr James Hansen, the “father of global warming”:
Figure 3: Hansen’s predictionsvi to the US Congress in 1988, compared to the subsequent temperatures as measured by NASA satellitesvii.
Hansen’s climate model clearly exaggerated future temperature rises.
In particular, his climate model predicted that if human CO2 emissions were cut back drastically starting in 1988, such that by year 2000 the CO2 level was not rising at all, we would get his scenario C. But in reality the temperature did not even rise this much, even though our CO2 emissions strongly increased – which suggests that the climate models greatly overestimate the effect of CO2 emissions.
A more considered prediction by the climate models was made in 1990 in the IPCC’s First Assessment Report:viii
Figure 4: Predictions of the IPCC’s First Assessment Report in 1990, compared to the subsequent temperatures as measured by NASA satellites.
It’s 20 years now, and the average rate of increase in reality is below the lowest trend in the range predicted by the IPCC.
Ocean Temperatures
The oceans hold the vast bulk of the heat in the climate system. We’ve only been measuring ocean temperature properly since mid-2003, when the Argo system became operational.ix,x In Argo, a buoy duck dives down to a depth of 2,000 meters, measures temperatures as it very slowly ascends, then radios the results back to headquarters via satellite. Over three thousand Argo buoys constantly patrol all the oceans of the world.
Figure 5: Climate model predictionsxi of ocean temperature, versus the measurements by Argoxii. The unit of the vertical axis is 1022 Joules (about 0.01°C).
The ocean temperature has been basically flat since we started measuring it properly, and not warming as quickly as the climate models predict.
Atmospheric Hotspot
The climate models predict a particular pattern of atmospheric warming during periods of global warming; the most prominent change they predict is a warming in the tropics about 10 km up, the “hotspot”.
The hotspot is the sign of the amplification in their theory (see Figure 1). The theory says the hotspot is caused by extra evaporation, and by extra water vapor pushing the warmer wetter lower troposphere up into volume previously occupied by cool dry air. The presence of a hotspot would indicate amplification is occurring, and vice versa.
We have been measuring atmospheric temperatures with weather balloons since the 1960s. Millions of weather balloons have built up a good picture of atmospheric temperatures over the last few decades, including the warming period from the late 70’s to the late 90’s. This important and pivotal data was not released publicly by the climate establishment until 2006, and then in an obscure place.xiii Here it is:
Figure 6: On the left is the data collected by millions of weather balloons.xiv On the right is what the climate models say was happening.xv The theory (as per the climate models) is incompatible with the observations. In both diagrams the horizontal axis shows latitude, and the right vertical axis shows height in kilometers.
In reality there was no hotspot, not even a small one. So in reality there is no amplification – the amplification shown in Figure 1 does not exist.xvi
Outgoing Radiation
The climate models predict that when the surface of the earth warms, less heat is radiated from the earth into space (on a weekly or monthly time scale). This is because, according to the theory, the warmer surface causes more evaporation and thus there is more heat-trapping water vapor. This is the heat-trapping mechanism that is responsible for the assumed amplification in Figure 1.
Satellites have been measuring the radiation emitted from the earth for the last two decades. A major study has linked the changes in temperature on the earth’s surface with the changes in the outgoing radiation. Here are the results:
Figure 7: Outgoing radiation from earth (vertical axis) against sea surface temperature (horizontal), as measured by the ERBE satellites (upper left graph) and as “predicted” by 11 climate models (the other graphs).xvii Notice that the slope of the graphs for the climate models are opposite to the slope of the graph for the observed data.
This shows that in reality the earth gives off more heat when its surface is warmer. This is the opposite of what the climate models predict. This shows that the climate models trap heat too aggressively, and that their assumed amplification shown in Figure 1 does not exist.
Conclusions
All the data here is impeccably sourced—satellites, Argo, and weather balloons.xviii
The air and ocean temperature data shows that the climate models overestimate temperature rises. The climate establishment suggest that cooling due to undetected aerosols might be responsible for the failure of the models to date, but this excuse is wearing thin—it continues not to warm as much as they said it would, or in the way they said it would. On the other hand, the rise in air temperature has been greater than the skeptics say could be due to CO2. The skeptic’s excuse is that the rise is mainly due to other forces – and they point out that the world has been in a fairly steady warming trend of 0.5°C per century since 1680 (with alternating ~30 year periods of warming and mild cooling) where as the vast bulk of all human CO2 emissions have been after 1945.
We’ve checked all the main predictions of the climate models against the best data:
The climate models get them all wrong. The missing hotspot and outgoing radiation data both, independently, prove that the amplification in the climate models is not present. Without the amplification, the climate model temperature predictions would be cut by at least two thirds, which would explain why they overestimated the recent air and ocean temperature increases.
Therefore:
- The climate models are fundamentally flawed. Their assumed threefold amplification by feedbacks does not in fact exist.
- The climate models overestimate temperature rises due to CO2 by at least a factor of three.
The skeptical view is compatible with the data.
Some Political Points
The data presented here is impeccably sourced, very relevant, publicly available, and from our best instruments. Yet it never appears in the mainstream media – have you ever seen anything like any of the figures here in the mainstream media? That alone tells you that the “debate” is about politics and power, and not about science or truth.
This is an unusual political issue, because there is a right and a wrong answer and everyone will know which it is eventually. People are going ahead and emitting CO2 anyway, so we are doing the experiment: either the world heats up by several degrees by 2050, or it doesn’t.
Notice that the skeptics agree with the government climate scientists about the direct effect of CO2; they just disagree just about the feedbacks. The climate debate is all about the feedbacks; everything else is merely a sideshow. Yet hardly anyone knows that. The government climate scientists and the mainstream media have framed the debate in terms of the direct effect of CO2 and sideshows such as arctic ice, bad weather, or psychology. They almost never mention the feedbacks. Why is that? Who has the power to make that happen?
About the Author
Dr David M.W. Evans consulted full-time for the Australian Greenhouse Office (now the Department of Climate Change) from 1999 to 2005, and part-time 2008 to 2010, modeling Australia’s carbon in plants, debris, mulch, soils, and forestry and agricultural products. Evans is a mathematician and engineer, with six university degrees including a PhD from Stanford University in electrical engineering. The area of human endeavor with the most experience and sophistication in dealing with feedbacks and analyzing complex systems is electrical engineering, and the most crucial and disputed aspects of understanding the climate system are the feedbacks. The evidence supporting the idea that CO2 emissions were the main cause of global warming reversed itself from 1998 to 2006, causing Evans to move from being a warmist to a skeptic.
Inquiries to david.evans@sciencespeak.com.
Republished on www.wattsupwiththat.com
This document is also available as a PDF file here: TheSkepticsCase
============================================================
References
i More generally, if the CO2 level is x (in parts per million) then the climate models estimate the temperature increase due to the extra CO2 over the pre-industrial level of 280 ppm as 4.33 ln(x / 280). For example, this model attributes a temperature rise of 4.33 ln(392/280) = 1.46°C to the increase from pre-industrial to the current CO2 level of 392 ppm.
ii The direct effect of CO2 is the same for each doubling of the CO2 level (that is, logarithmic). Calculations of the increased surface temperature due to of a doubling of the CO2 level vary from 1.0°C to 1.2°C. In this document we use the midpoint value 1.1°C; which value you use does not affect the arguments made here.
iii The IPCC, in their last Assessment Report in 2007, project a temperature increase for a doubling of CO2 (called the climate sensitivity) in the range 2.0°C to 4.5°C. The central point of their model estimates is 3.3°C, which is 3.0 times the direct CO2 effect of 1.1°C, so we simply say their amplification is threefold. To be more precise, each climate model has a slightly different effective amplification, but they are generally around 3.0.
iv More generally, if the CO2 level is x (in parts per million) then skeptics estimate the temperature increase due to the extra CO2 over the pre-industrial level of 280 ppm as 0.72 ln(x / 280). For example, skeptics attribute a temperature rise of 0.72 ln(392/280) = 0.24°C to the increase from pre-industrial to the current CO2 level of 392 ppm.
v The effect of feedbacks is hard to pin down with empirical evidence because there are more forces affecting the temperature than just changes in CO2 level, but seems to be multiplication by something between 0.25 and 0.9. We have used 0.5 here for simplicity.
vi Hansen’s predictions were made in Hansen et al, Journal of Geophysical Research, Vol 93 No D8 (20 Aug 1988) Fig 3a Page 9347: pubs.giss.nasa.gov/docs/1988/1988_Hansen_etal.pdf. In the graph here, Hansen’s three scenarios are graphed to start from the same point in mid-1987 – we are only interested in changes (anomalies).
vii The earth’s temperature shown here is as measured by the NASA satellites that have been measuring the earth’s temperature since 1979, managed at the University of Alabama Hunstville (UAH). Satellites measure the temperature 24/7 over broad swathes of land and ocean, across the whole world except the poles. While satellites had some initial calibration problems, those have long since been fully fixed to everyone’s satisfaction. Satellites are mankind’s most reliable, extensive, and unbiased method for measuring the earth’s air temperature temperatures since 1979. This is an impeccable source of data, and you can download the data yourself from vortex.nsstc.uah.edu/data/msu/t2lt/uahncdc.lt (save it as .txt file then open it in Microsoft Excel; the numbers in the “Globe” column are the changes in MSU Global Monthly Mean Lower Troposphere Temperatures in °C).
viii IPCC First Assessment Report, 1990, page xxii (www.ipcc.ch/ipccreports/far/wg_I/ipcc_far_wg_I_full_report.pdf) in the Policymakers Summary, Figure 8 and surrounding text, for the business-as-usual scenario (which is what in fact occurred, there being no significant controls or decrease in the rate of increase of emissions to date). “Under the IPCC Business-as-Usual (Scenario A) emissions of greenhouse gases, the average rate of increase of global mean temperature during the next century is estimated to be about 0.3°C per decade (with an uncertainty range of 0.2°C to 0.5°C).”
ix http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/weather/marine/observations/gathering_data/argo.html
x Ocean temperature measurements before Argo are nearly worthless. Before Argo, ocean temperature was measured with buckets or with bathythermographs (XBTs) — which are expendable probes lowered into the water, transmitting temperature and pressure data back along a pair of thin wires. Nearly all measurements were from ships along the main commercial shipping lanes, so geographical coverage of the world’s oceans was poor—for example the huge southern oceans were not monitored. XBTs do not go as deep as Argo floats, and their data is much less precise and much less accurate (for one thing, they move too quickly through the water to come to thermal equilibrium with the water they are trying to measure).
xi The climate models project ocean heat content increasing at about 0.7 × 10^22 Joules per year. See Hansen et al, 2005: Earth’s energy imbalance: Confirmation and implications. Science, 308, 1431-1435, page 1432 (pubs.giss.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/abstract.cgi?id=ha00110y), where the increase in ocean heat content per square meter of surface, in the upper 750m, according to typical models, is 6.0 Watt·year/m2 per year, which converts to 0.7 × 10^22 Joules per year for the entire ocean as explained at bobtisdale.wordpress.com/2011/06/14/giss-ohc-model-trends-one-question-answered-another-uncovered/.
xii The ocean heat content down to 700m as measured by Argo is now available; you can download it from ftp://ftp.nodc.noaa.gov/pub/data.nodc/woa/DATA_ANALYSIS/3M_HEAT_CONTENT/DATA/basin/3month/ohc_levitus_climdash_seasonal.csv. The numbers are the changes in average heat for the three months, in units of 10^22 Joules, seasonally adjusted. The Argo system started in mid-2003, so we started the data at 2003-6.
xiii The weather balloon data showing the atmospheric warming pattern was finally released in 2006, in the US Climate Change Science Program, 2006, part E of Figure 5.7, on page 116 (www.climatescience.gov/Library/sap/sap1-1/finalreport/sap1-1-final-chap5.pdf).
There is no other data for this period, and we cannot collect more data on atmospheric warming during global warming until global warming resumes. This is the only data there is. Btw, isn’t this an obscure place to release such important and pivotal data – you don’t suppose they are trying to hide something, do you?
xv Any climate model, for example, IPCC Assessment Report 4, 2007, Chapter 9, page 675, which is also on the web at http://www.ipcc.ch/publications_and_data/ar4/wg1/en/ch9s9-2-2.html (Figure 9.1 parts c and f). There was little warming 1959 – 1977, so the commonly available 1959 – 1999 simulations work as well.
xvi So the multiplier in the second box in Figures 1 and 2 is at most 1.0.
xvii Lindzen and Choi 2009, Geophysical Research Letters Vol. 36: http://www.drroyspencer.com/Lindzen-and-Choi-GRL-2009.pdf. The paper was corrected after some criticism, coming to essentially the same result again in 2011: www-eaps.mit.edu/faculty/lindzen/236-Lindzen-Choi-2011.pdf.
xviii In particular, we have not quoted results from land thermometers, or from sparse sampling by buckets and XBT’s at sea. Land thermometers are notoriously susceptible to localized effects – see Is the Western Climate Establishment Corrupt? by the same author: jonova.s3.amazonaws.com/corruption/climate-corruption.pdf.

All feedbacks are irrelevant if the system has a governor or thermostat. Willis’s theory that ITCZ Cu-Nims have this effect seems highly likely and I hope the Eschenator will publish soonest.
This incorrectly assumes that CO2 is a cause of warming and not an effect. Even Al Gore’s graphs show CO2 increases are an effect, not a cause of warming. There is no evidence that CO2 actually causes warming, despite any theoretical greenhouse contribution calculations.
In this post, Evans basically cherrypicks data sets, time periods, and studies to arrive at the conclusion that it wants to arrive at. Let’s focus, for example, on the “atmospheric hotspot” (tropical tropospheric amplification) issue. Evans does not discuss the known issues with the radiosonde trend data that he shows and the fact that different radiosonde analyses and different satellite data analyses yield different results.
In particular, he ignores many of the conclusions in the very report that he got the data from ( http://www.climatescience.gov/Library/sap/sap1-1/finalreport/sap1-1-final-chap5.pdf ):
The first statement tells us that the models and data agree for fluctuations over time periods for which the data is robust. Where they disagree is for the multidecadal trends where both the radiosonde and satellite data is not very robust and has known artifacts that can affect these trends. For these reasons, the authors of the report concluded that the remaining disagreement between models and data was more likely due to issues with the data than problems with the models.
Finally, it is not clear where the claim that 2/3 of the warming projected in the models is due to the “hot spot” comes from. This claim is not correct. In fact, as Isaac Held, one of the top modelers has recently noted, the hot spot has two effects: (1) to increase the magnitude of the water vapor feedback, which would increase the warming and (2) to cause the lapse rate feedback, a negative feedback in the models (i.e., one that reduces the warming). However, Held argues that the effect in the models of (2) is actually larger than (1), so that the net effect of the “hot spot” is likely to lower the amount of surface warming…and, thus, the absence of the “hot spot”, if real, would…if anything…increase the surface warming.
To be honest, this conclusion that the increase in the lapse rate feedback due to the “hot spot” is larger than the increase in the water vapor feedback kind of surprised me because I had always thought that the water vapor feedback wins over the lapse rate feedback…i.e., that the net effect of these two feedbacks together is amplification of the surface warming. However, Held explained to me that, while this is true, the water vapor feedback can be thought of as consisting of two parts: (a) the part that would occur even if the troposphere warmed uniformly rather than with tropical tropospheric amplification and (b) the additional part that occurs due to the tropical tropospheric amplification (“the hotspot”). Contrarily, the lapse rate feedback is solely the result of the tropical tropospheric amplification. And, if you compare only (b) to the lapse rate feedback, you find that the net effect of these two is a small negative feedback, so that is the net result that one at least naively expects from tropical tropospheric amplification (as opposed to just a uniform warming of the tropical troposphere).
So, to summarize, the comparison between models and data regarding the “hot spot” remains unsettled. And, at any rate, the “hot spot” is not responsible for most of the surface warming in the models; in fact, if anything the net effect of the “hot spot” missing would be to make the net feedbacks a little more positive because the net effect in the models of having the “hot spot” is a slight negative feedback to the surface warming.
My reasoning why the offical view for doubling of CO2 (1.1c) could actually be wrong is down to lab work I did a few years ago. It was only done for interest and therefore no report or analysis with it. The key conclusion I found and it was very suprising at the time, was that compared with the atmospheric air (~386ppm CO2) against 100 percent CO2 volume, there was only a 3c difference. This would take just short of 15 doublings of CO2 to reach this level if it was ever possible. Almost 15 doublings using the offical view should show a 16.5c difference, yet in the lab could only show a 3c difference. This value only represents about 0.2c rise per doubling of CO2, much lower than the 1.1c quoted.
The Warmist’s lack of logic boggles the mind! Consider this statement at the top of the post:
If water is THE predominant greenhouse gas, it doesn’t need any warming assistance from CO2. Their “guess” about a threefold amplification about feedbacks is bogus–water alone should be sufficient to cause runaway heat trapping and all the catastrophism the hysterical side needs to stir up the populace, remove individual freedoms, and foist a global governance through energy control onto all humanity.
But it DOESN’T. And it never will. There is no special collusion that happens between the two gasses.
It must really suck to be an AGW Control Freak right about now.
There are several other points that I feel are worth inclusion above.
1) Surface temperature monitoring prior to 1978 and the error bars thereof.
2) The silliness of ignoring ENSO(etc) during the ‘best fit’ rising portion … and blaming them during the current roughly-flat period.
3) The Little Ice Age and the widespread geographical and historical ‘anecdotes’ that are eliminated by Mann’s data-flattening method.
4) The elimination of the Medieval Warm Period.
Yes, it is only an ‘anecdote’ when you’re using information like tribal migrations, choice of crops, and ice skating announcements. But concrete information can be derived from even anecdotes – and the error bars (on one side anyway) can go well beyond the normal ‘95%’ confidence level typical of an actual experiment. The Thames just isn’t above freezing if there is an ice fair.
Elimination of the other previous, well-documented (if not well-instrumented) climactic shifts is -the- key element that allows the claims ‘worst in history’ and the crucial component of the adjective -catastrophic- for CAGW.
The silliness of fitting on the up-slope of a periodic function and claiming ‘Excellent Fit!’ and then turning around and declaiming that the subsequent deviation is mere weather is also odd. Either ENSO is ‘climate’, and should be properly predicted … -or- … ENSO is weather and the 1990-2000 period’s models should be falling short as they under-predict a ‘mere weather’ phenomena. Pick. Just don’t change your mind to suit whatever seems most convenient at the moment. Again.
CF this piece with this weeks Lindzen address at the house of commons – link thru
http://bishophill.squarespace.com/blog/2012/2/23/independent-on-lindzen.html
His 58 page presentation concludes : ( Be sure to read the whole thing)
“Perhaps we should stop accepting the term, ‘skeptic.’ Skepticism implies doubts about a plausible proposition. Current global warming alarm hardly represents a plausible proposition. Twenty years of repetition and escalation of claims does not make it more plausible. Quite the contrary, the failure to improve the case over 20 years makes the case even less plausible as does the evidence from climategate and other instances of overt cheating.
In the meantime, while I avoid making forecasts for tenths of a degree change in globally averaged temperature anomaly, I am quite willing to state that unprecedented climate catastrophes are not on the horizon though in several thousand years we may return to an ice age.”
58
“Hansen’s climate model clearly exaggerated future temperature rises.”
No, you have shown Hansen’s predictions for met stations surface temp measurement against satellite measured temperature for the lower troposphere. What Hansen was predicting is what is measured by the GISS Ts index. And that prediction is pretty good.
This chart shows the relationship between increasing CO2 and temperature. And this short paper by Dr Lance Endersbee shows the relationship between CO2, the oceans, and global warming:
http://icecap.us/images/uploads/Focus_0808_endersbee.pdf
Mutter, mutter, dry adiabatic lapse rate, mutter, mutter. Let’s not go there today….
Re figure 2 – This skeptic would include increased convection as offsetting part of a CO2 induced temperature increase.
William M. Connolley says:
That graph does not contradict what Connolley says. What he is saying is that temperature change depends logarithmically on CO2 level, which means that it would be linear on a plot of log(CO2 level). The plot you show does not have log(CO2 level) on the x-axis. It just has CO2 level.
If you look at the entire thread of the comment:
* Evans correctly assumed that the dependence of temperature on log(CO2) means that each doubling would produce the same increment in temperature (e.g., going from 560 ppm to 1120 ppm would produce the same temp change as going from 280 ppm to 560 ppm).
* pkirk21 incorrectly assumed that a logarithmic relationship means that each successive doubling would produce a smaller increment in temperature.
* Connolley correctly pointed out that the logarithmic relationship means the each successive doubling produces the same increment in temperature.
Nick Stokes says:
February 26, 2012 at 12:47 pm
“No, you have shown Hansen’s predictions for met stations surface temp measurement against satellite measured temperature for the lower troposphere. What Hansen was predicting is what is measured by the GISS Ts index. And that prediction is pretty good.”
But wasn’t the prediction that the troposphere should heat up faster than the surface?
“”””” Jeremy says:
February 26, 2012 at 11:51 am
The posts under David’s original blog has some good discourse also. A skeptic brings up some rubbish “slayer” arguments that are sometimes used to attack the CAGW meme but, being titally wrong, only serve to discredit the skeptics. David Evans obviously understands Physics very well and explains why these “slayer” arguments are just plain wrong. Excellent.
I realize Anthony Watts and his crew, not being Physicists, cannot be expected to correct the occasional egregious Physics errors committed from time to time on WUWT. However, WUWT is so well supported, has a large community, is uncensored, and is full of such diverse and interesting content (as well as posts) that I am quite wiling to overlook the odd articles/posts on WUWT that makes us few Physicists cringe. “””””
Well Jeremy, if you have been a practising Physicist; getting people to spend THEIR OWN MONEY in free arms length exchange for the fruits of YOUR Physics expertise, for more than 55 years, then I suppose you have cause to cringe; along with those other few Physicists out there. by the way; where can we find some of your expert Physics utterances related to the subject David Evans is presenting.
I take his data for granted, having not measured that myself. But I don’t necessarily agree with his view of what serious skeptics do believe WRT the 1.1 deg C rise in the mean global surface Temperature for any doubling of CO2 (sans ANY amplifications)… For a start, there is NO observed data supporting that, and just how in the laboratory did somebody measure the Temperature rise of some “surface” akin to earth’s surface, from doubling the CO2 (say from 280 to 560 ppm of a dry (waterless) synthetic earth atmosphere, under the influence of say a roughly black body radiator at a Temperature of about 288 Kelvins; the purported earth mean surface Temperature ?? I would accept something like an ordinary bottle of water at 15 deg C, as a suitable source of a 10 micron peaked LWIR emission spectrum, such as the mean earth surface emits. So where can we read the peer reviewed results of such laboratory experiments, confirming the official 1.1 deg C rise scenario. ??
Some of us “serious Physicists” would like to know.
[snip. On 72 hour timeout. ~dbs, mod.]
REPLY: I see that mostly what you are doing is throwing in hot button words to provoke a response, then whining about it when you get called out on it, such as you’ve recorded here: http://scienceblogs.com/stoat/2012/02/comments_elsewhere_part_ii.php
So, by your own admission it is all a game for you.
I note that you didn’t print the part today where I called you out on it.
And also note, other similar comments on Figure 3were allowed, but they didn’t call Dr. Evan’s integrity into question immediately like you did. They asked questions, you made accusations. Your comment wording was the problem.
For a person who routinely changes history at Wikipedia, and gets called out on it, and gets privileges revoked for his actions, you sure have some ego to complain when Dr. Evans makes an interpretation different than you. Your Gleickness shines brightly.
For your subterfuge word baiting game to see if you get banned here, the timeout I’m assigning you this this time is 72 hours. There won’t be a third time. Keep it civil and don’t assume this to be your sandbox, and you won’t have a problem. Your choice. – Anthony
Dessler and Davis JGR 2010 vol 115 could not find any increasing water vapour.
Water vapor is supposedly the most important feedback mechanism.
The case for (strong) feedback seems weak.
DirkH says: February 26, 2012 at 12:57 pm
“But wasn’t the prediction that the troposphere should heat up faster than the surface?”
Not the lower troposphere. But in any case, why not simply measure his prediction against what he was actually predicting?
Regarding the source of the direct effect of doubling of CO2 (with and w/o feedbacks included) here is page #3 of the 58 page presentation of Dr. Lindzen on Feb 2 2012 at the House of Commons Committee Rooms in Westminster, London: [note: bold emphasis below mine-JW]
Page 41 through 44 of Lindzen’s same 58 page presentation details the mechanism by which is the basis of his conclusion on page 44:
Hope this helps with showing another view versus Dr David M.W. Evans statement in his post that the direct effect of CO2 doubling is 1.1C.
Dr. Evans said:
As you can see the positions of Lindzen and Evans are different in that Lindzen adds that the direct effect of CO2 w/o feedbacks of about 1C is conservatively high. Whereas I do not see that conservatively high caution in Dr. Evans 1.1C.
John
Yes, doubling of CO2 for each increment involves the same rise in temperature.
For example.
386 –> 772ppm (1.1c )
772 –>1544ppm (1.1c)
The rise is the same for each doubling, but the volume of gas doubles each time to achieve the same rise.
Smokey says: February 26, 2012 at 12:48 pm
This short paper by Dr Lance Endersbee shows the relationship between CO2, the oceans, and global warming: http://icecap.us/images/uploads/Focus_0808_endersbee.pdf
Thanks Smokey for fishing this out, I hadn’t seen it. I was in contact with Endersbee shortly before he died. Some stats folk here suggested that Endersbee’s graph was done over too short a period of time… and in those days I took that as gospel but now I suspect the correlation is likely statistically significant… and boy is it telling.
CO2 comes from the oceans. WMC eat your heart out.
For the sake of clarity can we split the argument into two distinct camps.
I suggest that the warministas be refered to as the Goreal warming advocacy .
Any suggestions for the reality side? Or improvements on the above
All very interesting and succinct, and I was very impressed with Dr. Evan’s bio until I got to the Stanford part…alas!
Go Bears. 🙂
I’d really like for the HI to work to distill all these data so a high school 9th grader could understand it. I’d do it myself, but hey…they’re the ones evidently trying to stop the teaching of science in American schools and they’re the ones who are getting the big bad oil bucks to do it, right?
http://www.rhinohide.org/gw/publications/ipcc/ar4/img/ts26-updated-2011.jpg
Take a close look at the graphs/charts and consider this for a moment. Is it possible they were aware of the cooling that would be caused by the actions they “ignore?” Assume that the IPCC BS had been accepted in 2000 and that CO2 had been restricted as they wanted. All of these morons would be receiving the Nobel Peace Prize.
Wrong! It comes from MODTRAN a computer program designed to model atmospheric propagation of electromagnetic radiation for the 100-50,000 cm-1 (0.2 to 100 um) spectral range by Spectral Sciences Inc. and the US Air Force. You do understand that there is a difference between these organisations and the IPCC?
Do we have any outputs from MODTRAN from the base state derived from the observations of 50 years ago? Do we have any recent actual data on the increased Lorentz bandwidth observed and compared them against the original data?
I have some of the books that detail the measurements from that era (including down to the individual wave numbers) but I have yet to see one to one comparisons of that data to today or even comparable recent data.
For someone who knows a person who goes to places like Durbin ( a relative of a friend of mine whom I’ve debated with over drinks ), Please help:
What are the arguments against some of these skeptic arguments made by warmists?
The hotspot.
The argo data.
Sea level non-acceleration.
choose another.
And how do they justify the fact that they declared this crisis in the late 80s after about a decade of warming, while now dismissing a decade of flat temps as irrelevant?
And, i would suggest any forced warming should cause said amplifications as ” the models ” predict, and yet no fire-ball earth in history?
Any answers to these would be much appreciated, as this guy loves to drive me into the weeds. And I am educated well on this subject, but need to know their weak ( likely ) rebuttals.