Who Are You Going To Believe – The Government Climate Scientists or The Data?
By Dr David M.W. Evans (republished here with permission, PDF link below)
We check the main predictions of the climate models against the best and latest data. Fortunately the climate models got all their major predictions wrong. Why? Every serious skeptical scientist has been consistently saying essentially the same thing for over 20 years, yet most people have never heard the message – here it is, put simply enough for any lay reader willing to pay attention.
What the Government Climate Scientists Say
Figure 1: The climate models. If the CO2 level doubles (as it is on course to do by about 2070 to 2100), the climate models estimate the temperature increase due to that extra CO2 will be about 1.1°C × 3 = 3.3°C.i
The direct effect of CO2 is well-established physics, based on laboratory results, and known for over a century.ii
Feedbacks are due to the ways the Earth reacts to the direct warming effect of the CO2. The threefold amplification by feedbacks is based on the assumption, or guess, made around 1980, that more warming due to CO2 will cause more evaporation from the oceans and that this extra water vapor will in turn lead to even more heat trapping because water vapor is the main greenhouse gas. And extra heat will cause even more evaporation, and so on. This amplification is built into all the climate models.iii The amount of amplification is estimated by assuming that nearly all the industrial-age warming is due to our CO2.
The government climate scientists and the media often tell us about the direct effect of the CO2, but rarely admit that two thirds of their projected temperature increases are due to amplification by feedbacks.
What the Skeptics Say
Figure 2: The skeptic’s view. If the CO2 level doubles, skeptics estimates that the temperature increase due to that extra CO2 will be about 1.1°C × 0.5 ≈ 0.6°C.iv
The serious skeptical scientists have always agreed with the government climate scientists about the direct effect of CO2. The argument is entirely about the feedbacks.
The feedbacks dampen or reduce the direct effect of the extra CO2, cutting it roughly in half.v The main feedbacks involve evaporation, water vapor, and clouds. In particular, water vapor condenses into clouds, so extra water vapor due to the direct warming effect of extra CO2 will cause extra clouds, which reflect sunlight back out to space and cool the earth, thereby reducing the overall warming.
There are literally thousands of feedbacks, each of which either reinforces or opposes the direct warming effect of the extra CO2. Almost every long-lived system is governed by net feedback that dampens its response to a perturbation. If a system instead reacts to a perturbation by amplifying it, the system is likely to reach a tipping point and become unstable (like the electronic squeal that erupts when a microphone gets too close to its speakers). The earth’s climate is long-lived and stable— it has never gone into runaway greenhouse, unlike Venus — which strongly suggests that the feedbacks dampen temperature perturbations such as that from extra CO2.
What the Data Says
The climate models have been essentially the same for 30 years now, maintaining roughly the same sensitivity to extra CO2even while they got more detailed with more computer power.
- How well have the climate models predicted the temperature?
- Does the data better support the climate models or the skeptic’s view?
Air Temperatures
One of the earliest and most important predictions was presented to the US Congress in 1988 by Dr James Hansen, the “father of global warming”:
Figure 3: Hansen’s predictionsvi to the US Congress in 1988, compared to the subsequent temperatures as measured by NASA satellitesvii.
Hansen’s climate model clearly exaggerated future temperature rises.
In particular, his climate model predicted that if human CO2 emissions were cut back drastically starting in 1988, such that by year 2000 the CO2 level was not rising at all, we would get his scenario C. But in reality the temperature did not even rise this much, even though our CO2 emissions strongly increased – which suggests that the climate models greatly overestimate the effect of CO2 emissions.
A more considered prediction by the climate models was made in 1990 in the IPCC’s First Assessment Report:viii
Figure 4: Predictions of the IPCC’s First Assessment Report in 1990, compared to the subsequent temperatures as measured by NASA satellites.
It’s 20 years now, and the average rate of increase in reality is below the lowest trend in the range predicted by the IPCC.
Ocean Temperatures
The oceans hold the vast bulk of the heat in the climate system. We’ve only been measuring ocean temperature properly since mid-2003, when the Argo system became operational.ix,x In Argo, a buoy duck dives down to a depth of 2,000 meters, measures temperatures as it very slowly ascends, then radios the results back to headquarters via satellite. Over three thousand Argo buoys constantly patrol all the oceans of the world.
Figure 5: Climate model predictionsxi of ocean temperature, versus the measurements by Argoxii. The unit of the vertical axis is 1022 Joules (about 0.01°C).
The ocean temperature has been basically flat since we started measuring it properly, and not warming as quickly as the climate models predict.
Atmospheric Hotspot
The climate models predict a particular pattern of atmospheric warming during periods of global warming; the most prominent change they predict is a warming in the tropics about 10 km up, the “hotspot”.
The hotspot is the sign of the amplification in their theory (see Figure 1). The theory says the hotspot is caused by extra evaporation, and by extra water vapor pushing the warmer wetter lower troposphere up into volume previously occupied by cool dry air. The presence of a hotspot would indicate amplification is occurring, and vice versa.
We have been measuring atmospheric temperatures with weather balloons since the 1960s. Millions of weather balloons have built up a good picture of atmospheric temperatures over the last few decades, including the warming period from the late 70’s to the late 90’s. This important and pivotal data was not released publicly by the climate establishment until 2006, and then in an obscure place.xiii Here it is:
Figure 6: On the left is the data collected by millions of weather balloons.xiv On the right is what the climate models say was happening.xv The theory (as per the climate models) is incompatible with the observations. In both diagrams the horizontal axis shows latitude, and the right vertical axis shows height in kilometers.
In reality there was no hotspot, not even a small one. So in reality there is no amplification – the amplification shown in Figure 1 does not exist.xvi
Outgoing Radiation
The climate models predict that when the surface of the earth warms, less heat is radiated from the earth into space (on a weekly or monthly time scale). This is because, according to the theory, the warmer surface causes more evaporation and thus there is more heat-trapping water vapor. This is the heat-trapping mechanism that is responsible for the assumed amplification in Figure 1.
Satellites have been measuring the radiation emitted from the earth for the last two decades. A major study has linked the changes in temperature on the earth’s surface with the changes in the outgoing radiation. Here are the results:
Figure 7: Outgoing radiation from earth (vertical axis) against sea surface temperature (horizontal), as measured by the ERBE satellites (upper left graph) and as “predicted” by 11 climate models (the other graphs).xvii Notice that the slope of the graphs for the climate models are opposite to the slope of the graph for the observed data.
This shows that in reality the earth gives off more heat when its surface is warmer. This is the opposite of what the climate models predict. This shows that the climate models trap heat too aggressively, and that their assumed amplification shown in Figure 1 does not exist.
Conclusions
All the data here is impeccably sourced—satellites, Argo, and weather balloons.xviii
The air and ocean temperature data shows that the climate models overestimate temperature rises. The climate establishment suggest that cooling due to undetected aerosols might be responsible for the failure of the models to date, but this excuse is wearing thin—it continues not to warm as much as they said it would, or in the way they said it would. On the other hand, the rise in air temperature has been greater than the skeptics say could be due to CO2. The skeptic’s excuse is that the rise is mainly due to other forces – and they point out that the world has been in a fairly steady warming trend of 0.5°C per century since 1680 (with alternating ~30 year periods of warming and mild cooling) where as the vast bulk of all human CO2 emissions have been after 1945.
We’ve checked all the main predictions of the climate models against the best data:
The climate models get them all wrong. The missing hotspot and outgoing radiation data both, independently, prove that the amplification in the climate models is not present. Without the amplification, the climate model temperature predictions would be cut by at least two thirds, which would explain why they overestimated the recent air and ocean temperature increases.
Therefore:
- The climate models are fundamentally flawed. Their assumed threefold amplification by feedbacks does not in fact exist.
- The climate models overestimate temperature rises due to CO2 by at least a factor of three.
The skeptical view is compatible with the data.
Some Political Points
The data presented here is impeccably sourced, very relevant, publicly available, and from our best instruments. Yet it never appears in the mainstream media – have you ever seen anything like any of the figures here in the mainstream media? That alone tells you that the “debate” is about politics and power, and not about science or truth.
This is an unusual political issue, because there is a right and a wrong answer and everyone will know which it is eventually. People are going ahead and emitting CO2 anyway, so we are doing the experiment: either the world heats up by several degrees by 2050, or it doesn’t.
Notice that the skeptics agree with the government climate scientists about the direct effect of CO2; they just disagree just about the feedbacks. The climate debate is all about the feedbacks; everything else is merely a sideshow. Yet hardly anyone knows that. The government climate scientists and the mainstream media have framed the debate in terms of the direct effect of CO2 and sideshows such as arctic ice, bad weather, or psychology. They almost never mention the feedbacks. Why is that? Who has the power to make that happen?
About the Author
Dr David M.W. Evans consulted full-time for the Australian Greenhouse Office (now the Department of Climate Change) from 1999 to 2005, and part-time 2008 to 2010, modeling Australia’s carbon in plants, debris, mulch, soils, and forestry and agricultural products. Evans is a mathematician and engineer, with six university degrees including a PhD from Stanford University in electrical engineering. The area of human endeavor with the most experience and sophistication in dealing with feedbacks and analyzing complex systems is electrical engineering, and the most crucial and disputed aspects of understanding the climate system are the feedbacks. The evidence supporting the idea that CO2 emissions were the main cause of global warming reversed itself from 1998 to 2006, causing Evans to move from being a warmist to a skeptic.
Inquiries to david.evans@sciencespeak.com.
Republished on www.wattsupwiththat.com
This document is also available as a PDF file here: TheSkepticsCase
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References
i More generally, if the CO2 level is x (in parts per million) then the climate models estimate the temperature increase due to the extra CO2 over the pre-industrial level of 280 ppm as 4.33 ln(x / 280). For example, this model attributes a temperature rise of 4.33 ln(392/280) = 1.46°C to the increase from pre-industrial to the current CO2 level of 392 ppm.
ii The direct effect of CO2 is the same for each doubling of the CO2 level (that is, logarithmic). Calculations of the increased surface temperature due to of a doubling of the CO2 level vary from 1.0°C to 1.2°C. In this document we use the midpoint value 1.1°C; which value you use does not affect the arguments made here.
iii The IPCC, in their last Assessment Report in 2007, project a temperature increase for a doubling of CO2 (called the climate sensitivity) in the range 2.0°C to 4.5°C. The central point of their model estimates is 3.3°C, which is 3.0 times the direct CO2 effect of 1.1°C, so we simply say their amplification is threefold. To be more precise, each climate model has a slightly different effective amplification, but they are generally around 3.0.
iv More generally, if the CO2 level is x (in parts per million) then skeptics estimate the temperature increase due to the extra CO2 over the pre-industrial level of 280 ppm as 0.72 ln(x / 280). For example, skeptics attribute a temperature rise of 0.72 ln(392/280) = 0.24°C to the increase from pre-industrial to the current CO2 level of 392 ppm.
v The effect of feedbacks is hard to pin down with empirical evidence because there are more forces affecting the temperature than just changes in CO2 level, but seems to be multiplication by something between 0.25 and 0.9. We have used 0.5 here for simplicity.
vi Hansen’s predictions were made in Hansen et al, Journal of Geophysical Research, Vol 93 No D8 (20 Aug 1988) Fig 3a Page 9347: pubs.giss.nasa.gov/docs/1988/1988_Hansen_etal.pdf. In the graph here, Hansen’s three scenarios are graphed to start from the same point in mid-1987 – we are only interested in changes (anomalies).
vii The earth’s temperature shown here is as measured by the NASA satellites that have been measuring the earth’s temperature since 1979, managed at the University of Alabama Hunstville (UAH). Satellites measure the temperature 24/7 over broad swathes of land and ocean, across the whole world except the poles. While satellites had some initial calibration problems, those have long since been fully fixed to everyone’s satisfaction. Satellites are mankind’s most reliable, extensive, and unbiased method for measuring the earth’s air temperature temperatures since 1979. This is an impeccable source of data, and you can download the data yourself from vortex.nsstc.uah.edu/data/msu/t2lt/uahncdc.lt (save it as .txt file then open it in Microsoft Excel; the numbers in the “Globe” column are the changes in MSU Global Monthly Mean Lower Troposphere Temperatures in °C).
viii IPCC First Assessment Report, 1990, page xxii (www.ipcc.ch/ipccreports/far/wg_I/ipcc_far_wg_I_full_report.pdf) in the Policymakers Summary, Figure 8 and surrounding text, for the business-as-usual scenario (which is what in fact occurred, there being no significant controls or decrease in the rate of increase of emissions to date). “Under the IPCC Business-as-Usual (Scenario A) emissions of greenhouse gases, the average rate of increase of global mean temperature during the next century is estimated to be about 0.3°C per decade (with an uncertainty range of 0.2°C to 0.5°C).”
ix http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/weather/marine/observations/gathering_data/argo.html
x Ocean temperature measurements before Argo are nearly worthless. Before Argo, ocean temperature was measured with buckets or with bathythermographs (XBTs) — which are expendable probes lowered into the water, transmitting temperature and pressure data back along a pair of thin wires. Nearly all measurements were from ships along the main commercial shipping lanes, so geographical coverage of the world’s oceans was poor—for example the huge southern oceans were not monitored. XBTs do not go as deep as Argo floats, and their data is much less precise and much less accurate (for one thing, they move too quickly through the water to come to thermal equilibrium with the water they are trying to measure).
xi The climate models project ocean heat content increasing at about 0.7 × 10^22 Joules per year. See Hansen et al, 2005: Earth’s energy imbalance: Confirmation and implications. Science, 308, 1431-1435, page 1432 (pubs.giss.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/abstract.cgi?id=ha00110y), where the increase in ocean heat content per square meter of surface, in the upper 750m, according to typical models, is 6.0 Watt·year/m2 per year, which converts to 0.7 × 10^22 Joules per year for the entire ocean as explained at bobtisdale.wordpress.com/2011/06/14/giss-ohc-model-trends-one-question-answered-another-uncovered/.
xii The ocean heat content down to 700m as measured by Argo is now available; you can download it from ftp://ftp.nodc.noaa.gov/pub/data.nodc/woa/DATA_ANALYSIS/3M_HEAT_CONTENT/DATA/basin/3month/ohc_levitus_climdash_seasonal.csv. The numbers are the changes in average heat for the three months, in units of 10^22 Joules, seasonally adjusted. The Argo system started in mid-2003, so we started the data at 2003-6.
xiii The weather balloon data showing the atmospheric warming pattern was finally released in 2006, in the US Climate Change Science Program, 2006, part E of Figure 5.7, on page 116 (www.climatescience.gov/Library/sap/sap1-1/finalreport/sap1-1-final-chap5.pdf).
There is no other data for this period, and we cannot collect more data on atmospheric warming during global warming until global warming resumes. This is the only data there is. Btw, isn’t this an obscure place to release such important and pivotal data – you don’t suppose they are trying to hide something, do you?
xv Any climate model, for example, IPCC Assessment Report 4, 2007, Chapter 9, page 675, which is also on the web at http://www.ipcc.ch/publications_and_data/ar4/wg1/en/ch9s9-2-2.html (Figure 9.1 parts c and f). There was little warming 1959 – 1977, so the commonly available 1959 – 1999 simulations work as well.
xvi So the multiplier in the second box in Figures 1 and 2 is at most 1.0.
xvii Lindzen and Choi 2009, Geophysical Research Letters Vol. 36: http://www.drroyspencer.com/Lindzen-and-Choi-GRL-2009.pdf. The paper was corrected after some criticism, coming to essentially the same result again in 2011: www-eaps.mit.edu/faculty/lindzen/236-Lindzen-Choi-2011.pdf.
xviii In particular, we have not quoted results from land thermometers, or from sparse sampling by buckets and XBT’s at sea. Land thermometers are notoriously susceptible to localized effects – see Is the Western Climate Establishment Corrupt? by the same author: jonova.s3.amazonaws.com/corruption/climate-corruption.pdf.

Yes, believe David Evans, an Electrical Engineer w/o a single peer-reviewed paper in the field of climate science. His only peer-reviewed and published paper was in 1987 and NOT in the field of climate science. This “article” by Evans was brought to you by the Mises Institute. Please disregard.
Pierre March 5, 6:32 pm
Pierre, I was a bit puzzled by what seems to be an attack on Dr. Evans scientific expertise etc, so I looked-up your Mises Institute reference, and they say of him in the same article:
I don’t get it, what’s your gripe?
Did you find any errors in his data or logic?
BTW, the article, which is a quick summary was not first published by Mises Institute since it appeared on Jo Nova’s site about a month earlier: http://joannenova.com.au/2012/01/dr-david-evans-the-skeptics-case/
Phil. says:
March 5, 2012 at 5:50 pm
Myrrh says:
March 1, 2012 at 3:13 pm
Phil. says:
March 1, 2012 at 11:26 am
Myrrh says:
February 29, 2012 at 8:02 pm
They can’t seem to stop thinking of Light as heat.
“That’s because it is! When I used green (532nm) light in my lab Laser Induced Incandescence experiment I heated soot particles to about 4000ºC.”
Yeah right, the Sun’s a laser. We’re just imagining we’re here, the Earth was burned to a crisp 4.5 billion years ago.
You seem to have some strange misconceptions as to what a laser is, in the experiment I described it’s just a stream of photons exactly at the same wavelength, i.e. 532nm in the green.
So pure green light focussed on black soot particles raised the temperature of them to 4000ºC, no mystical properties, just light (in this case visible) transferring energy. Something you mistakenly believe is impossible.
======
It really doesn’t matter how often I say “from the Sun”? Your great argument is provide an artificially enhanced light and claim (note, claim, I’ve asked you before to provide details, and you haven’t, not of the experiment, not the laser, sod all in fact), you always avoid it. And if I recall, you couldn’t tell the difference between a thermal measuring device and one measuring light.
You’ve been pissing me off for a long time.
It is still not heat. It is light, it is certainly intensified light. Visible light does not heat up something by moving the molecules into vibration, these work on an electonic transition scale, tiny, on the DNA level. You can stare up at the blue sky all day long, and your eyes won’t get burned. You see blue because it reflecting off the electrons of the molecules of oxygen and nitrogen, that’s why it’s called visible light, because you can see it. Would you do that with a laser? What’s the comparison between the visible light we get direct from the Sun and visible artificially enhanced laser of unknown origin?
How does it compare with near infrared light of your remote control?
See the NASA page – near infrared is light not heat, it is not hot.
Let us know when when you have managed to heat a cup of water with blue visible light as from the Sun.
Because until you do you’re just w*nk*ng off here. And it’s not a pretty sight..
Something that I’ve become interested in is the healing properties of light and heat radiation. UV is long known for it microbe zapping abilities and used in water purification, but much more, though not enough I think, has been done looking at how light can actually heal externally and internally. Blue light is excellent at zapping gum infections, for example, killing the bacteria within seconds. Pushed for time to find examples, but here’s a page:
http://www.photobiology.com/reviews/bunsen/index.htm
from which: ” Laser sources used in clinical routine give a nice example of the contrasting consequences that result from exposure to very high- and very low-intensity visible radiation. The importance of time and intensity-dependence of biological responses upon exposure to even low doses of visible radiation becomes evident when the effects of pulsed lasers used for selective photothermolysis, e.g. in the treatment of vascular skin lesions, and lasers applied for the enhancement of wound healing are compared (Fig.ure 54). While in the former case low doses between 6 and 8 J/cm² of 535 nm light are emitted within milli- or microseconds, in the latter comparable doses of red light (632.8nm) are delivered over periods of minutes. On the one hand, selective destruction of blood vessels is achieved [26](25), whereas on the other hand formation of new capillaries can be induced. [27-29] (26-28)”
And: http://heelspurs.com/led.html
from which: “Conditions and Injuries Helped by LEDs
Conditions known to be helped by LED light therapy
osteoarthritis (full-body Sun exposure is best, without sunscreen)
sports injuries such as knee, ankle, shoulder, etc
burns, scrapes, and pain relief from cuts
ulcers (on skin, not in stomach)
macular degeneration (see safety)
laser burns to the retina (see safety)
My bold..
For interest:
http://www.murder.demon.co.uk/
http://laser.physics.sunysb.edu/~tanya/report2/
Anyway, if you can’t tell the difference by now between light and heat radiation you could be missing out benefitting from the knowledge..
And, it’s still junk science in the KT97 AGWScience Fiction energy budget – visible light from the Sun is not capable of heating land and oceans as claimed in this, and, if you still think gases don’t have buoyancy then you’re living in a fantasy world, not the real world around you. As an antidote I suggest you bring back the Water Cycle and real gases with volume, etc., any good site on how weather works, it will give you a real atmosphere to fill your empty space.
Phil. @ur momisugly March 5, 5:50 pm (Re: Myrth @ur momisugly March 1, 3:13 pm)
From long experience, I usually only glance through Myrrh’s more recent long posts, although occasionally if I’m levitated to a bit of “stand-up-comedy”, I may read a bit. Out of that somewhere above, I recall that he/she asserts that ONLY mid and far infrared is thermal, so that most of the solar spectrum spread of thermal energy including near infrared of undefined division somehow does a vanishing trick.
Long ago, before I concluded that he/she may suffer from an OCD medical condition, I asked him/her to draw a vertical division line on your typical solar spectrum graph upon which, according to his unique “fisics”, that EMR of the longer wavelengths is thermal, but the shorter wavelengths on the other side were not. He did not respond to that and a bunch of other things, or at best obfuscated.
This comedy has been going on for a long time, and perhaps it is beyond a joke to many realists here.
Myrrh says:
March 5, 2012 at 4:54 pm
Try cooking your fish with your remote control, let us know when it’s ready to eat..
;———————————————————————–
It’s not clear you understand heat or temperature.
My remote uses an IR LED which has a bandwidth of 900 nm to 1.05 microns, peaks at 940 nm with a power of 20 mW.
The weight of the fish is 0.5 kilograms.
Assume the specific heat capacity of the fish is approximately equal to the specific heat capacity of water, namely, 4.1813 kJ/(kg*kelvin).
The specific heat capacity of dry air is 1.00 kJ/(kg*kelvin), the size of the box is 11.9 x 10^-3 m^3, and the weight of a cubic meter of dry air is 1.21 kg/m^3.
The temperature inside the metal box is 293 kelvin and the pressure is 101.325 kPa (or STP.)
Define cooking to be a temperature of 336 kelvin for at least 600 seconds.
Assume no heat leaks from the box.
How long will it take?
[snip – angry rant with liberal use of cuss words – calm down and resubmit – Anthony]
ENOUGH OF THE PREVARICATION
Prove that Visible light from the Sun heats the oceans as per the junk fictional fisics energy budget of the AGWScience Fiction puppet masters.
Until you try you won’t be able to tell the difference between heat and light, or understand temperature.
Water is a transparent medium for visible light. It does not absorb it.
To remind: your fictional world with its atmosphere of empty space of ideal gas molecules, in which clouds magically appear because your gases aren’t buoyant in air, still claims to have the same proportion surface ocean and land, and claims that shortwave converts these directly to heat, and, claims that the heat from the Sun, the thermal infrared which is the real Sun’s thermal energy on the move to us at the speed of electromagnetic waves, doesn’t reach Earth’s surface and so doesn’t heat land and oceans.
In the real world the thermal energy, heat, direct from the Sun, does reach the surface, and this is what heats up water by vibrational resonance of the molecules of water in the oceans and in us, we are a large proportion water.
This thermal energy of the real Sun on the move to us is thermal infrared, it is the Sun’s heat, it is invisible.
We know it is thermal energy because thermal energy is heat and we feel it as heat because it penetrates our bodies and warms us up*.
Shortwave light direct from the Sun in the real world works on electronic transition level, it is neither capable of moving whole molecules of water into vibrational resonance nor of being absorbed by them.
Water in the real world is a transparent medium for shortwave.
Which means that shortwave are transmitted through without being absorbed.
Which means shortwave beam light, direct from the Sun, has no way of heating the water of the oceans in the real world.
Prove that shortwave beam Light from the Sun is capable of heating the oceans in the real world – or admit it doesn’t or stop saying it does.
Your claim, you prove it.
This nonsensical fisics, for that is what it truly is as I’ve shown, claims that visible light is what heats us. Because you can’t tell the difference between heat and light or do not make the proper distinction between heat and light you continue to regurgitate this. Why, when I’ve given enough information from traditional physics that would give any one thinking himself a scientist pause to stop and think and investigate for himself? Instead you’re arguing as all warmists do, with ad hom and claims to your personal supposed scientific authority – haven’t any of you noticed that none of you provide the simple explanations and figures that I’ve been asking for? Why not if this is real physics and not the junk I say it is as shown from the traditional physics I’ve given?
This proof should be readily available, books and books of it, why hasn’t any of this been produced in the decades these claims have been made? Instead you scrabble around trying to find some way of justifying it, and you know for yourselves, you – can’t – find – anything. You can’t show traditional physics wrong in this.
An incandescent bulb radiates 95% heat, invisible thermal infrared, and 5% visible light.
Heat heats us up, light doesn’t.
You claim that the 5% visible light from the incandescent bulb is what we feel as heat because you claim that visible converts matter to heat**.
You either know how utterly ridiculous this claim and are pushing it anyway, or you have been completely taken in by this fictional fisics, the deliberate creation to promote the AGW scare.
I don’t care which category you fall into, but if you’re not in the first, then you should be reading this exchange with due attention. You try and decide who is talking real world physics and who is simply repeating the fictional memes and who is knowingly talking bs with the deliberate intention to confuse. And try not to get distracted..
——————–
* NASA: “Far infrared waves are thermal. In other words, we experience this type of infrared radiation every day in the form of heat! The heat that we feel from sunlight, a fire, a radiator or a warm sidewalk is infrared.”
“Shorter, near infrared waves are not hot at all – in fact you cannot even feel them. These shorter wavelengths are the ones used by your TV’s remote control.”
&
http://thermalenergy.org/heattransfer.php
Heat Transfer
“Thermal energy and heat are often confused. Rightly so because they are physically the same thing . Heat is always the thermal energy of some system. Using the word heat helps physicists to make a distinction relative to the system they are talking about.”
&
http://thermalenergy.org/
Thermal Energy Explained
**It is simply a physical fact in the real world that an incandescent light bulb radiates 95% heat, which is the invisible thermal infrared, and 5% visible light.
Ira Glickstein, PhD says:
March 1, 2011 at 6:11 am
Myrrh says:
February 28, 2011 at 4:31 pm
I’m really at a loss to understand any of this. How on earth does Visible light and near short wave heat the Earth?
“Myrrh, you really need to get outside more and sit in the Sunshine and feel the warmth! That is how visible and near-visible (“shortwave”) light warms the Earth.
If you don’t or cannot get outside, turn on an old-fashioned incandescent light bulb and hold your hand near it (not too close, you will get burned). Feel the heat? That is shortwave light because the filament is heated to temperatures similar to the Sun’ surface. You can tell it is shortwave because you can see the light.”
——————–
Talking nonsense doesn’t miraculously become real physics just because someone is a PhD.
Now, back to the flip side of the AGWScience Fiction claim: that the atmosphere is transparent to shortwave and this passes through without heating the atmosphere.
The real gas heavy volume of fluid gas atmosphere* above us weighing a ton on our shoulders and kept in place by gravity is not a transparent medium for visible light in our real world; the electrons of the molecules of oxygen and nitrogen absorb it and reflect/scatter it back out, as explained previously.
How much does the visible light in AGW’s comic cartoon energy budget heat the molecules of oxygen and nitrogen in the atmosphere, since you claim that absorption of visible light converts matter to heat?
Your claim, you prove it.
———————–
*The heavy ocean of real gas which is the real atmosphere of our world, is not empty space, it is not a vacuum, SB does not apply.
To understand the difference between these real gas molecules, which have real volume and weight etc., and the imaginary construct ideal gas molecules claimed for the empty atmosphere AGWSF fisics – where ideal gas molecules without volume or attraction or weight (which is gravity) zip around diffusing at great speeds through empty space by bouncing off each other to ‘mix thoroughly’, so giving the base of the fictional energy budget of radiation only and no convection etc. – simply learn how sound travels in the real atmosphere.
http://www.mediacollege.com/audio/01/sound-waves.html HOW SOUND TRAVELS
Sound cannot travel in empty space.
I hope you can hear me.
————————
Prove that Visible light from the Sun heats the oceans as per the junk fictional fisics of the AGWSF puppet masters.
Prove that shortwave beam Light from the Sun is capable of heating the oceans in the real world – or admit it doesn’t, or stop saying it does.
How much does the visible light in the comic cartoon energy budget KT97etc. heat the molecules of oxygen and nitrogen in the atmosphere, since you claim that absorption of visible light converts matter to heat?
Your claims, you prove them.
===
Myrrh says:
March 6, 2012 at 2:57 pm
Water is a transparent medium for visible light. It does not absorb it.
;——————————————————————————————————————
Why is water blue?
Agile Aspect says:
March 6, 2012 at 8:20 pm
Myrrh says:
March 6, 2012 at 2:57 pm
Water is a transparent medium for visible light. It does not absorb it.
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Why is water blue?
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Refraction, see Newton for prisms and good explanation on the optic’s page I linked to above for transmission through transparent media, and, see optics generally for such things as light perception and difference in speed of colours slowed down by air and water and colour mixing and pigmentation and see transparency and translucency link for electronic transitions, etc.
Similar to why we have blue sky, except that water is transparent medium for visible so visible light transmitted through without being absorbed, refraction, and the atmosphere isn’t, reflection/scattering. In the atmosphere the electrons of the molecules of nitrogen and oxygen do absorb visible light as they reflect/scatter it. Which is where my question comes in.
Can you answer it?
The AGW claim is that ‘visible energy is absorbed and converts to heat lands and ocean’ – so basic physics, visible light is absorbed by the electrons of the molecules of nitrogen and oxygen in the atmosphere in reflection/scattering so must be heating them up.
(Though it claims the atmosphere is a transparent medium for visible and isn’t absorbed, it is clearly not because it takes absorption to reflect/scatter.)
How much is visible light heating up the atmosphere in the AGWSF energy budget?
Myrrh says:
March 5, 2012 at 8:29 pm
Phil. says:
March 5, 2012 at 5:50 pm
Myrrh says:
March 1, 2012 at 3:13 pm
Phil. says:
March 1, 2012 at 11:26 am
Myrrh says:
February 29, 2012 at 8:02 pm
They can’t seem to stop thinking of Light as heat.
“That’s because it is! When I used green (532nm) light in my lab Laser Induced Incandescence experiment I heated soot particles to about 4000ºC.”
Yeah right, the Sun’s a laser. We’re just imagining we’re here, the Earth was burned to a crisp 4.5 billion years ago.
“You seem to have some strange misconceptions as to what a laser is, in the experiment I described it’s just a stream of photons exactly at the same wavelength, i.e. 532nm in the green.
So pure green light focussed on black soot particles raised the temperature of them to 4000ºC, no mystical properties, just light (in this case visible) transferring energy. Something you mistakenly believe is impossible.”
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It really doesn’t matter how often I say “from the Sun”?
No it doesn’t, there’s no difference between 532nm photons emitted from the sun and those from the Nd:YAG laser, those from the laser are following paths which are more parallel and therefore are capable of being more tightly focussed than those from the sun, but the individual photons are indistinguishable.
Your great argument is provide an artificially enhanced light and claim (note, claim, I’ve asked you before to provide details, and you haven’t, not of the experiment, not the laser, sod all in fact), you always avoid it.
The light isn’t ‘artificially enhanced’, apparently you’re incapable of googling Laser Induced Incandescence? Lynn Melton’s original paper is a good place to start:
Melton, L.A., ” Soot Diagnostics Based on Laser Heating,” Appl. Opt., 23, 2201-2208, (1984).
I used basically the same technique as John Dec:
Dec, J., “Soot Distribution in a D.I. Diesel Engine Using 2-D Imaging of Laser-induced Incandescence, Elastic Scattering, and Flame Luminosity,” SAE Technical Paper 920115, 1992, doi:10.4271/920115.
And if I recall, you couldn’t tell the difference between a thermal measuring device and one measuring light.
No, that was your failure to understand that the most commonly used measuring devices for measuring light in the lab. do so by measuring the heat absorbed! The following describes how they work contrary to your ‘theory of light and heat’. The Scientech device is one of the most commonly used, you’ll notice it has a response curve from 0.2μm in the UV to 30μm in the IR, including the visible
http://www.scientech-inc.com/laserpowernotes.phtml
You’ve been pissing me off for a long time.
The feeling is mutual, for the most part I ignore the rubbish you post, but just in case someone might think that you actually have a clue about the subject I feel obliged to set the record straight. You’re clearly a lost cause since you’ve never shown the slightest indication of listening to anyone, in fact you go on abusive rants as you have here.
It is still not heat. It is light, it is certainly intensified light. Visible light does not heat up something by moving the molecules into vibration, these work on an electonic transition scale, tiny, on the DNA level.
More indications of your ignorance, electronic transitions are larger than vibrational and rotational transitions, it is the IR photons that are ‘tiny’!
You can stare up at the blue sky all day long, and your eyes won’t get burned.
Such a statement is dangerous and should carry a government health warning! Retinal damage is caused by visible light since UV and IR don’t make it to the retina. In fact to trace the path of UV or IR laser beams in the lab. I have to use fluorescent cards to detect them.
You see blue because it reflecting off the electrons of the molecules of oxygen and nitrogen, that’s why it’s called visible light, because you can see it. Would you do that with a laser? What’s the comparison between the visible light we get direct from the Sun and visible artificially enhanced laser of unknown origin?
How does it compare with near infrared light of your remote control?
See the NASA page – near infrared is light not heat, it is not hot.
Phil. says:
March 7, 2012 at 9:55 am
Myrrh: “It is still not heat. It is light, it is certainly intensified light. Visible light does not heat up something by moving the molecules into vibration, these work on an electonic transition scale, tiny, on the DNA level.”
More indications of your ignorance, electronic transitions are larger than vibrational and rotational transitions, it is the IR photons that are ‘tiny’!
LOL!
Myrrh: “You can stare up at the blue sky all day long, and your eyes won’t get burned.”
Such a statement is dangerous and should carry a government health warning! Retinal damage is caused by visible light since UV and IR don’t make it to the retina. In fact to trace the path of UV or IR laser beams in the lab. I have to use fluorescent cards to detect them.
And that!
I’m spoiled for choice, here we’re back to the ‘heat we feel from an incandescent lightbulb is from visible.. ‘
Well Phil, proof positive for anyone reading this if they investigate for themselves, that you certainly can’t be taken seriously in any science you’re giving.
So, how much is visible light heating the molecules of oxygen and nitrogen in the atmosphere, as their electrons absorb visible?
The last part of my preceding post which starts with “You see blue…..” is not mine, it’s Myrrh’s.
Myrrh says:
March 7, 2012 at 12:10 pm
Phil. says:
March 7, 2012 at 9:55 am
Myrrh: “It is still not heat. It is light, it is certainly intensified light. Visible light does not heat up something by moving the molecules into vibration, these work on an electonic transition scale, tiny, on the DNA level.”
“More indications of your ignorance, electronic transitions are larger than vibrational and rotational transitions, it is the IR photons that are ‘tiny’!”
LOL!
Not sure what you’re laughing at?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0e/Franck-Condon-diagram.png/325px-Franck-Condon-diagram.png
Note the larger energy difference between the two electronic states, E0 and E1, when compared with the smaller differences between successive vibrational levels, v=0,1,2,……
Myrrh: “You can stare up at the blue sky all day long, and your eyes won’t get burned.”
Such a statement is dangerous and should carry a government health warning! Retinal damage is caused by visible light since UV and IR don’t make it to the retina. In fact to trace the path of UV or IR laser beams in the lab. I have to use fluorescent cards to detect them.
And that!
From advice given by NASA for eye safety when viewing eclipses:
“Exposure of the retina to intense visible light causes damage to its light-sensitive rod and cone cells. The light triggers a series of complex chemical reactions within the cells which damages their ability to respond to a visual stimulus, and in extreme cases, can destroy them. The result is a loss of visual function which may be either temporary or permanent, depending on the severity of the damage. When a person looks repeatedly or for a long time at the Sun without proper protection for the eyes, this photochemical retinal damage may be accompanied by a thermal injury – the high level of visible and near-infrared radiation causes heating that literally cooks the exposed tissue. This thermal injury or photocoagulation destroys the rods and cones, creating a small blind area.”
“Even when 99% of the Sun’s surface (the photosphere) is obscured during the partial phases of a solar eclipse, the remaining crescent Sun is still intense enough to cause a retinal burn, even though illumination levels are comparable to twilight”
http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/SEhelp/safety2.html
I’m spoiled for choice, here we’re back to the ‘heat we feel from an incandescent lightbulb is from visible.. ‘
Really where do you get that from?
Well Phil, proof positive for anyone reading this if they investigate for themselves, that you certainly can’t be taken seriously in any science you’re giving.
Only if they suffer from the same delusions as you do. The rest will realize that you’re really out of touch (most know that anyway, see above).
So, how much is visible light heating the molecules of oxygen and nitrogen in the atmosphere, as their electrons absorb visible?
Not much since their absorption coefficients in the visible are so small, several orders of magnitude less than CO2 in the solar spectrum. The electronic transitions in O2 and N2 are in the UV, the Schumann-Runge and Vegard—Kaplan band systems.
Phil. @ur momisugly March 7, 2:33 pm
Hi Phil, I admire your persistence in trying to explain stuff to Myrth, but it seems to me from long term observation of his/her comedy routine, (with suspicions of trolling), that he/she is apparently unable to comprehend the relevant well established physics. It seems to me that his/her main dogma is that he/she thinks water is transparent to visible light, and thus visible cannot be absorbed by water. However, there is much evidence that whilst visible EMR is much less absorbent in water than UV & IR by big orders of magnitude, it is still not transparent. FOR INSTANCE, see the following link, but note the differences in scale ranges, particularly in fig. 3.
http://people.seas.harvard.edu/~jones/es151/gallery/images/absorp_water.html
But, of course, seawater which covers over 70% of the surface contains all sorts of other stuff, and mysteriously it generally gets dark down there, depending on regional turbidity at around 100m. I’ve yet to see an elaboration from Myrrh as to why/how it gets dark down there!
Further my post just above, to be fair, there is SOME photosynthesis stuff going on in phytoplankton. (but far from all embracing, or dubious in net outcome to the argument)
Myrrh says:
March 7, 2012 at 12:24 am
Why is water blue?
==
Refraction, see Newton for prisms and good explanation on the optic’s page I linked to above for transmission through transparent media, and, see o
ptics generally for such things as light perception and difference in speed of colours slowed down by air and water and colour mixing and pigmentat
ion and see transparency and translucency link for electronic transitions, etc.
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Water appears blue because water is absorbing visible light (assumed to be white) at frequencies which are the color complements of the blue light you’re viewing.
This is sometimes referred to as “eye ball” spectroscopy.
This doesn’t say anything about the absorption efficiency or the intensity of the light.
Glancing at the color complement chart, it appears water is absorbing visible light in the orange and red bandwidths. It could be absorbing in the yellow too.
In any case, the statement “Water is a transparent medium for visible light. It does not absorb it” is false.
The sky is blue because of the elastic scattering of blue light off of molecules in the atmosphere.
The intensity of the scattering goes like 1/wavelength^4 for molecules less 1/10 the wavelength of the light – which ends up favoring blue light.
For the electronic transitions of the nitrogen molecules, try this
http://www.nist.gov/data/PDFfiles/jpcrdM3.pdf
Or what is the color complement of green?
Opps – the last sentence in the last post, namely
Or what is the color complement of green?
shouldn’t be there.
I had intended to remove it before posting.
The answer is purple with blue side bands – or the absorption of visible light by chlorophyll.
@Smokey, Thanks you very much for your invitation but no I wont be drawn out and side-tracked by other arguments. I’ve stated that David Evans fails to include deeper heat when making model comparisons. No one here has been able to defend his actions and provide a scientific basis for why he “hides the heat”.
Good luck with your quest.
itsnotnova says:
“…I wont be drawn out and side-tracked by other arguments.”
My comments originate from a skeptical perspective, which is the topic of Dr Evans’ post. Therefore, a translation of your comment: ‘I can’t refute what you posted, so it’s time to skedaddle’. [I am supposing that you were responding to my comment @March 1, 2012 at 7:13 pm, although you didn’t make that very clear.]
The conjecture that CO2 is causing runaway global warming has been decisively falsified: there has been no acceleration of the [very mild] natural warming trend since the LIA. If there is any dispute in the matter, ‘itsnotnova’ must provide empirical, testable evidence, per the scientific method, showing that the rising temperature trend since the 1600’s is accelerating beyond its past parameters. I have shown that it is not.
As Dr Evans says: who are you going to believe, the government scientists, or the data?
Smokey @ur momisugly March 8, 10:41 am
Smokey, your graph is certainly inconvenient data to be shunned by the CAGW crowd. In my view, (and probably that of Bart above; 60-year cycle), it would be even better if it had the closest fit sinusoidal trend around the linear trend.
The earliest reference to this that I know of was back in 2003 by a couple of Russians, and it was a remarkably good model projection to this day. See:
http://bobfjones.wordpress.com/2012/02/02/linear-trends-on-noisy-data/
Bob_FJ says:
March 7, 2012 at 10:30 pm
Phil. @ur momisugly March 7, 2:33 pm
Hi Phil, I admire your persistence in trying to explain stuff to Myrth, but it seems to me from long term observation of his/her comedy routine, (with suspicions of trolling), that he/she is apparently unable to comprehend the relevant well established physics.
Agreed, but you don’t want him to continually post his nonsense without rebuttal otherwise readers might think he’s right.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/02/26/the-skeptics-case/#comment-914539
Moderator’s Note: Myrrh, a little commentary, rather than just a link, would be good. -REP
This whole Masters or Doctoral Thesis or whatever you want to call it is destroyed by one thing.
RUNAWAY ARCTIC METHANE.
That means you cannot stipulate or postulate that the projected mean temps for future oceans are wrong or over estimated. The results of whats going to happen in the future are in the deep oceanic fossil record. At the risk of oversimplification, you may want to investigate this and try to avoid it if you want; it adds significant weight in off balance in favor of your argument. As a strong supporter of science, you should add this to your lexicon and counter it.
http://youtu.be/oHqKxWvcBdg
And if you might want to look into THE DAY THE OCEANS BOILED.