The Skeptics Case

Who Are You Going To Believe – The Government Climate Scientists or The Data?

By Dr David M.W. Evans (republished here with permission, PDF link below)

We check the main predictions of the climate models against the best and latest data. Fortunately the climate models got all their major predictions wrong. Why? Every serious skeptical scientist has been consistently saying essentially the same thing for over 20 years, yet most people have never heard the message – here it is, put simply enough for any lay reader willing to pay attention.

What the Government Climate Scientists Say

Figure 1: The climate models. If the CO2 level doubles (as it is on course to do by about 2070 to 2100), the climate models estimate the temperature increase due to that extra CO2 will be about 1.1°C × 3 = 3.3°C.i

The direct effect of CO2 is well-established physics, based on laboratory results, and known for over a century.ii

Feedbacks are due to the ways the Earth reacts to the direct warming effect of the CO2. The threefold amplification by feedbacks is based on the assumption, or guess, made around 1980, that more warming due to CO2 will cause more evaporation from the oceans and that this extra water vapor will in turn lead to even more heat trapping because water vapor is the main greenhouse gas. And extra heat will cause even more evaporation, and so on. This amplification is built into all the climate models.iii The amount of amplification is estimated by assuming that nearly all the industrial-age warming is due to our CO2.

The government climate scientists and the media often tell us about the direct effect of the CO2, but rarely admit that two thirds of their projected temperature increases are due to amplification by feedbacks.

What the Skeptics Say 

image

Figure 2: The skeptic’s view. If the CO2 level doubles, skeptics estimates that the temperature increase due to that extra CO2 will be about 1.1°C × 0.5 ≈ 0.6°C.iv

The serious skeptical scientists have always agreed with the government climate scientists about the direct effect of CO2. The argument is entirely about the feedbacks.

The feedbacks dampen or reduce the direct effect of the extra CO2, cutting it roughly in half.v The main feedbacks involve evaporation, water vapor, and clouds. In particular, water vapor condenses into clouds, so extra water vapor due to the direct warming effect of extra CO2 will cause extra clouds, which reflect sunlight back out to space and cool the earth, thereby reducing the overall warming.

There are literally thousands of feedbacks, each of which either reinforces or opposes the direct warming effect of the extra CO2. Almost every long-lived system is governed by net feedback that dampens its response to a perturbation. If a system instead reacts to a perturbation by amplifying it, the system is likely to reach a tipping point and become unstable (like the electronic squeal that erupts when a microphone gets too close to its speakers). The earth’s climate is long-lived and stable— it has never gone into runaway greenhouse, unlike Venus — which strongly suggests that the feedbacks dampen temperature perturbations such as that from extra CO2.

What the Data Says

The climate models have been essentially the same for 30 years now, maintaining roughly the same sensitivity to extra CO2even while they got more detailed with more computer power.

  • How well have the climate models predicted the temperature?
  • Does the data better support the climate models or the skeptic’s view?

Air Temperatures

One of the earliest and most important predictions was presented to the US Congress in 1988 by Dr James Hansen, the “father of global warming”:

image

Figure 3: Hansen’s predictionsvi to the US Congress in 1988, compared to the subsequent temperatures as measured by NASA satellitesvii.

Hansen’s climate model clearly exaggerated future temperature rises.

In particular, his climate model predicted that if human CO2 emissions were cut back drastically starting in 1988, such that by year 2000 the CO2 level was not rising at all, we would get his scenario C. But in reality the temperature did not even rise this much, even though our CO2 emissions strongly increased – which suggests that the climate models greatly overestimate the effect of CO2 emissions.

A more considered prediction by the climate models was made in 1990 in the IPCC’s First Assessment Report:viii

image

Figure 4: Predictions of the IPCC’s First Assessment Report in 1990, compared to the subsequent temperatures as measured by NASA satellites.

It’s 20 years now, and the average rate of increase in reality is below the lowest trend in the range predicted by the IPCC.

Ocean Temperatures

The oceans hold the vast bulk of the heat in the climate system. We’ve only been measuring ocean temperature properly since mid-2003, when the Argo system became operational.ix,x In Argo, a buoy duck dives down to a depth of 2,000 meters, measures temperatures as it very slowly ascends, then radios the results back to headquarters via satellite. Over three thousand Argo buoys constantly patrol all the oceans of the world.

image

Figure 5: Climate model predictionsxi of ocean temperature, versus the measurements by Argoxii. The unit of the vertical axis is 1022 Joules (about 0.01°C).

The ocean temperature has been basically flat since we started measuring it properly, and not warming as quickly as the climate models predict.

Atmospheric Hotspot

The climate models predict a particular pattern of atmospheric warming during periods of global warming; the most prominent change they predict is a warming in the tropics about 10 km up, the “hotspot”.

The hotspot is the sign of the amplification in their theory (see Figure 1). The theory says the hotspot is caused by extra evaporation, and by extra water vapor pushing the warmer wetter lower troposphere up into volume previously occupied by cool dry air. The presence of a hotspot would indicate amplification is occurring, and vice versa.

We have been measuring atmospheric temperatures with weather balloons since the 1960s. Millions of weather balloons have built up a good picture of atmospheric temperatures over the last few decades, including the warming period from the late 70’s to the late 90’s. This important and pivotal data was not released publicly by the climate establishment until 2006, and then in an obscure place.xiii Here it is:

image

Figure 6: On the left is the data collected by millions of weather balloons.xiv On the right is what the climate models say was happening.xv The theory (as per the climate models) is incompatible with the observations. In both diagrams the horizontal axis shows latitude, and the right vertical axis shows height in kilometers.

In reality there was no hotspot, not even a small one. So in reality there is no amplification – the amplification shown in Figure 1 does not exist.xvi

Outgoing Radiation

The climate models predict that when the surface of the earth warms, less heat is radiated from the earth into space (on a weekly or monthly time scale). This is because, according to the theory, the warmer surface causes more evaporation and thus there is more heat-trapping water vapor. This is the heat-trapping mechanism that is responsible for the assumed amplification in Figure 1.

Satellites have been measuring the radiation emitted from the earth for the last two decades. A major study has linked the changes in temperature on the earth’s surface with the changes in the outgoing radiation. Here are the results:

image

Figure 7: Outgoing radiation from earth (vertical axis) against sea surface temperature (horizontal), as measured by the ERBE satellites (upper left graph) and as “predicted” by 11 climate models (the other graphs).xvii Notice that the slope of the graphs for the climate models are opposite to the slope of the graph for the observed data.

This shows that in reality the earth gives off more heat when its surface is warmer. This is the opposite of what the climate models predict. This shows that the climate models trap heat too aggressively, and that their assumed amplification shown in Figure 1 does not exist.

Conclusions

All the data here is impeccably sourced—satellites, Argo, and weather balloons.xviii

The air and ocean temperature data shows that the climate models overestimate temperature rises. The climate establishment suggest that cooling due to undetected aerosols might be responsible for the failure of the models to date, but this excuse is wearing thin—it continues not to warm as much as they said it would, or in the way they said it would. On the other hand, the rise in air temperature has been greater than the skeptics say could be due to CO2. The skeptic’s excuse is that the rise is mainly due to other forces – and they point out that the world has been in a fairly steady warming trend of 0.5°C per century since 1680 (with alternating ~30 year periods of warming and mild cooling) where as the vast bulk of all human CO2 emissions have been after 1945.

We’ve checked all the main predictions of the climate models against the best data:

image

The climate models get them all wrong. The missing hotspot and outgoing radiation data both, independently, prove that the amplification in the climate models is not present. Without the amplification, the climate model temperature predictions would be cut by at least two thirds, which would explain why they overestimated the recent air and ocean temperature increases.

Therefore:

  1. The climate models are fundamentally flawed. Their assumed threefold amplification by feedbacks does not in fact exist.
  2. The climate models overestimate temperature rises due to CO2 by at least a factor of three.

The skeptical view is compatible with the data.

Some Political Points

The data presented here is impeccably sourced, very relevant, publicly available, and from our best instruments. Yet it never appears in the mainstream media – have you ever seen anything like any of the figures here in the mainstream media? That alone tells you that the “debate” is about politics and power, and not about science or truth.

This is an unusual political issue, because there is a right and a wrong answer and everyone will know which it is eventually. People are going ahead and emitting CO2 anyway, so we are doing the experiment: either the world heats up by several degrees by 2050, or it doesn’t.

Notice that the skeptics agree with the government climate scientists about the direct effect of CO2; they just disagree just about the feedbacks. The climate debate is all about the feedbacks; everything else is merely a sideshow. Yet hardly anyone knows that. The government climate scientists and the mainstream media have framed the debate in terms of the direct effect of CO2 and sideshows such as arctic ice, bad weather, or psychology. They almost never mention the feedbacks. Why is that? Who has the power to make that happen?

About the Author

Dr David M.W. Evans consulted full-time for the Australian Greenhouse Office (now the Department of Climate Change) from 1999 to 2005, and part-time 2008 to 2010, modeling Australia’s carbon in plants, debris, mulch, soils, and forestry and agricultural products. Evans is a mathematician and engineer, with six university degrees including a PhD from Stanford University in electrical engineering. The area of human endeavor with the most experience and sophistication in dealing with feedbacks and analyzing complex systems is electrical engineering, and the most crucial and disputed aspects of understanding the climate system are the feedbacks. The evidence supporting the idea that CO2 emissions were the main cause of global warming reversed itself from 1998 to 2006, causing Evans to move from being a warmist to a skeptic.

Inquiries to david.evans@sciencespeak.com.

Republished on www.wattsupwiththat.com

This document is also available as a PDF file here: TheSkepticsCase

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References

i More generally, if the CO2 level is x (in parts per million) then the climate models estimate the temperature increase due to the extra CO2 over the pre-industrial level of 280 ppm as 4.33 ln(x / 280). For example, this model attributes a temperature rise of 4.33 ln(392/280) = 1.46°C to the increase from pre-industrial to the current CO2 level of 392 ppm.

ii The direct effect of CO2 is the same for each doubling of the CO2 level (that is, logarithmic). Calculations of the increased surface temperature due to of a doubling of the CO2 level vary from 1.0°C to 1.2°C. In this document we use the midpoint value 1.1°C; which value you use does not affect the arguments made here.

iii The IPCC, in their last Assessment Report in 2007, project a temperature increase for a doubling of CO2 (called the climate sensitivity) in the range 2.0°C to 4.5°C. The central point of their model estimates is 3.3°C, which is 3.0 times the direct CO2 effect of 1.1°C, so we simply say their amplification is threefold. To be more precise, each climate model has a slightly different effective amplification, but they are generally around 3.0.

iv More generally, if the CO2 level is x (in parts per million) then skeptics estimate the temperature increase due to the extra CO2 over the pre-industrial level of 280 ppm as 0.72 ln(x / 280). For example, skeptics attribute a temperature rise of 0.72 ln(392/280) = 0.24°C to the increase from pre-industrial to the current CO2 level of 392 ppm.

v The effect of feedbacks is hard to pin down with empirical evidence because there are more forces affecting the temperature than just changes in CO2 level, but seems to be multiplication by something between 0.25 and 0.9. We have used 0.5 here for simplicity.

vi Hansen’s predictions were made in Hansen et al, Journal of Geophysical Research, Vol 93 No D8 (20 Aug 1988) Fig 3a Page 9347: pubs.giss.nasa.gov/docs/1988/1988_Hansen_etal.pdf. In the graph here, Hansen’s three scenarios are graphed to start from the same point in mid-1987 – we are only interested in changes (anomalies).

vii The earth’s temperature shown here is as measured by the NASA satellites that have been measuring the earth’s temperature since 1979, managed at the University of Alabama Hunstville (UAH). Satellites measure the temperature 24/7 over broad swathes of land and ocean, across the whole world except the poles. While satellites had some initial calibration problems, those have long since been fully fixed to everyone’s satisfaction. Satellites are mankind’s most reliable, extensive, and unbiased method for measuring the earth’s air temperature temperatures since 1979. This is an impeccable source of data, and you can download the data yourself from vortex.nsstc.uah.edu/data/msu/t2lt/uahncdc.lt (save it as .txt file then open it in Microsoft Excel; the numbers in the “Globe” column are the changes in MSU Global Monthly Mean Lower Troposphere Temperatures in °C).

viii IPCC First Assessment Report, 1990, page xxii (www.ipcc.ch/ipccreports/far/wg_I/ipcc_far_wg_I_full_report.pdf) in the Policymakers Summary, Figure 8 and surrounding text, for the business-as-usual scenario (which is what in fact occurred, there being no significant controls or decrease in the rate of increase of emissions to date). “Under the IPCC Business-as-Usual (Scenario A) emissions of greenhouse gases, the average rate of increase of global mean temperature during the next century is estimated to be about 0.3°C per decade (with an uncertainty range of 0.2°C to 0.5°C).”

ix http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/weather/marine/observations/gathering_data/argo.html

x Ocean temperature measurements before Argo are nearly worthless. Before Argo, ocean temperature was measured with buckets or with bathythermographs (XBTs) — which are expendable probes lowered into the water, transmitting temperature and pressure data back along a pair of thin wires. Nearly all measurements were from ships along the main commercial shipping lanes, so geographical coverage of the world’s oceans was poor—for example the huge southern oceans were not monitored. XBTs do not go as deep as Argo floats, and their data is much less precise and much less accurate (for one thing, they move too quickly through the water to come to thermal equilibrium with the water they are trying to measure).

xi The climate models project ocean heat content increasing at about 0.7 × 10^22 Joules per year. See Hansen et al, 2005: Earth’s energy imbalance: Confirmation and implications. Science, 308, 1431-1435, page 1432 (pubs.giss.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/abstract.cgi?id=ha00110y), where the increase in ocean heat content per square meter of surface, in the upper 750m, according to typical models, is 6.0 Watt·year/m2 per year, which converts to 0.7 × 10^22 Joules per year for the entire ocean as explained at bobtisdale.wordpress.com/2011/06/14/giss-ohc-model-trends-one-question-answered-another-uncovered/.

xii The ocean heat content down to 700m as measured by Argo is now available; you can download it from ftp://ftp.nodc.noaa.gov/pub/data.nodc/woa/DATA_ANALYSIS/3M_HEAT_CONTENT/DATA/basin/3month/ohc_levitus_climdash_seasonal.csv. The numbers are the changes in average heat for the three months, in units of 10^22 Joules, seasonally adjusted. The Argo system started in mid-2003, so we started the data at 2003-6.

xiii The weather balloon data showing the atmospheric warming pattern was finally released in 2006, in the US Climate Change Science Program, 2006, part E of Figure 5.7, on page 116 (www.climatescience.gov/Library/sap/sap1-1/finalreport/sap1-1-final-chap5.pdf).

There is no other data for this period, and we cannot collect more data on atmospheric warming during global warming until global warming resumes. This is the only data there is. Btw, isn’t this an obscure place to release such important and pivotal data – you don’t suppose they are trying to hide something, do you?

xiv See previous endnote.

xv Any climate model, for example, IPCC Assessment Report 4, 2007, Chapter 9, page 675, which is also on the web at http://www.ipcc.ch/publications_and_data/ar4/wg1/en/ch9s9-2-2.html (Figure 9.1 parts c and f). There was little warming 1959 – 1977, so the commonly available 1959 – 1999 simulations work as well.

xvi So the multiplier in the second box in Figures 1 and 2 is at most 1.0.

xvii Lindzen and Choi 2009, Geophysical Research Letters Vol. 36: http://www.drroyspencer.com/Lindzen-and-Choi-GRL-2009.pdf. The paper was corrected after some criticism, coming to essentially the same result again in 2011: www-eaps.mit.edu/faculty/lindzen/236-Lindzen-Choi-2011.pdf.

xviii In particular, we have not quoted results from land thermometers, or from sparse sampling by buckets and XBT’s at sea. Land thermometers are notoriously susceptible to localized effects – see Is the Western Climate Establishment Corrupt? by the same author: jonova.s3.amazonaws.com/corruption/climate-corruption.pdf.

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Ian H
February 27, 2012 7:16 pm

Typhoon says:
The three possible mechanisms of heat transfer are convection, conduction, and radiation.

R. Gates says:
When I see nonsense like this written I just want to cry. I hope you are not a science student at an American College or university, but rather, just another skeptic parroting nonsense they picked up on some website or blog.
Please go read about advection– an extremely important way that energy (yes, including heat) is transferred around to various locations, both vertically and horizontally, on this planet.

Advection. Interesting. Not a term I am all that familiar with. So having followed your advice and looked it up, what is the first thing I read.

Advection is sometimes confused with the more encompassing process convection , which encompasses both advective transport and diffusive transport in fluids. Convective transport is the sum of advective transport and diffusive transport.

So to sum up “advection” is an aspect of “convection”. Convection consists of advection combined with heat diffusion in fluids. Typhoons description therefore seems to be both comprehensive and complete. Adding “advection” to his list as you propose would seem to be both unnecessary and redundant.
R Gates, if this is the kind of thing that “makes you want to cry” then I suggest you seek counselling for emotional instability.

February 27, 2012 8:38 pm

The elephant in the room which is central to the sceptical case, is the missing water vapour feedback. Without it, best estimates are around 1C of warming.
It’s telling that not one defender of AGW wants to discuss the central issue. This is one of the reasons why I have no faith in climatism.

Agile Aspect
February 27, 2012 8:39 pm

Anything is possible says:
February 26, 2012 at 1:48 pm
Until climate science acknowledges the key role that convection, acting alongside radiation, plays in controlling atmospheric temperatures, it will be forever thrashing around in the dark, unable to produce a correct explanation for anything.
;——————————————————————————
Convection determines the temperature lapse rate of the atmosphere, namely, dT/dz.

Bob_FJ
February 27, 2012 8:42 pm

R. Gates your various wisdoms on ocean heat content.
The oceans cover over 70% of the Earth’s surface and vary a great deal in depth and in thermohaline circulation, solar insolation, and stuff. Seawater has a very much higher specific heat than that of the soup of the lower troposphere; the surface temperature in which has reportedly risen globally averaged some 0.7 C over the past 150 years or so.
I don’t know why you are so enraptured by an ocean depth of up to 2000 m, or its gradation, and what trends in temperature might be revealed, but could you explain more quantitatively? Like; what are the sampling sizes and the time-span significances? What is the alleged meaningful temperature increase over what spacial and temporal considerations? Does it meet the statistical significance of some CAGW experts that demand a 30-year timespan for there to be any significance, even if straight linear trending may be a rather dubious concept?
(BTW, do you think that you have found Trenberth’s missing heat?)

Steve Obeda
February 27, 2012 8:43 pm

If scientists on the alarmist side really do understand the climate as well as we should in order to justify expending trillions of dollars in resources, perhaps someone can answer a simple question on the mechanics of the ancient climate.
At the onset of the ice age, as the climate cooled, why did the oceans not simply freeze in place?
We’re arguing about relatively tiny details, and we don’t understand anything about the basic mechanics of significant effects.

Agile Aspect
February 27, 2012 8:44 pm

Bill H says:
February 26, 2012 at 2:05 pm
Black body IR is indeed hastened by CO2 levels.
;————————————————————–
False.
IR is electromagnetic radiation or heat. It’s not hastened by CO2 and it doesn’t matter whether you model it as a black body or not.
Gases do not cause heating – heat causes heating.

Agile Aspect
February 27, 2012 9:05 pm

Dave Worley says:
February 26, 2012 at 2:18 pm
Congrats Roscoe, you may be on the forefront of the new paradigm.
I can hear it now, “we must reduce CO2 emissions to avoid runaway cooling”.
Everyone climb aboard….lots of money to be made!
Sheeesh!
;—————————————————————————————————————-
Actually, it’s an old paradigm – it’s the one from the 70’s.
And for the same reasons, namely, CO2 was cause of the cooling.
The meme that CO2 is evil can be traced to Thatcher who needed a reason to sell the British public nuclear power plants.
Hence the CRU was born based on money from British Petroleum, Dutch Shell, and the nuclear power industry.

R. Gates
February 27, 2012 10:11 pm

Ian H.,
Glad to see you learned a new very important term (i.e. advection), but I highly suggest you go beyond the wiki article you quoted from. But since you decided to interject, let’s look at the full post that prompted my introduction of the notion of advection. The discussion was related to how heat could get into the deeper ocean without first warming the whole upper layer. Here’s the post:
—–
Typhoon says:
February 27, 2012 at 7:59 am
litsnotnova says:February 27, 2012 at 3:01 am
Ocean Heat Content does show an increase so long as you don’t cherry pick just the first 700 meters. Data going down deeper to Argo’s 2000 meter range shows that the heat has been accumulating despite the short timeframe for which data is being collected.
http://www.nodc.noaa.gov/OC5/3M_HEAT_CONTENT/
I think it’s deceptive of the author to talk about Argo buoys going down to 2,000 meters, then only show a graph with data to 700 meters.
The three possible mechanisms of heat transfer are convection, conduction, and radiation.
How does heat accumulate down at 2000m without first warming the 2000m above?
——
So you see, without Typhoon understanding the notion of advection, he couldm’t understand how heat could flow into the deeper ocean via the Thermalhaline current, for that is exactly what the THC is, an advective transport of mass, heat, and salinity throughout the worlds oceans. It is like the river or pipeline of the ocean. In fact, had you read a bit further in your wiki article you would have found this little tidbit:
“Occasionally, the term advection is used as synonymous with convection. However, many engineers prefer to use the term convection to describe transport by combined molecular and eddy diffusion, and reserve the usage of the term advection to describe transport with a general (net) flow of the fluid (like in river or pipeline).”
So only understanding the very general case of convection, does not allow you understand the nature and dynamics of advection as it relates to one of the most important advective processes involving both weather and climate– the THC, and in how heat, mass, and salinity can be transported to the deeper ocean without warming or diffusing out in upper layers. In the case of the upper layers of the ocean, an advective “river runs through it” and it is called the THC.

Agile Aspect
February 27, 2012 10:13 pm

Mike says:
February 26, 2012 at 3:39 pm
Explain this: http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs_v3/Fig.A2.gif
;—————————————————————————-
Hansen is not only cooking the data, since the mean of the residue is not zero, he’s cooking the calculation.

JJ
February 27, 2012 10:24 pm

R. Gates blathered:
There is absolutely no mystery how heat can get to lower levels of the ocean without warming the entire upper layers first.

Straw man. The question isnt how the heat gets low without heating the entire upper layer. The question is, how does the heat get low without heating any of the upper layer first. The heat pipe you claim is not to be found in current data. Substantial heating of the entire 700-2000m layer (or the average thereof) without showing up in the 0-700m layer would require a very large quantity of heat transiting a very small area. Given that your personal clairvoyance can see past this mystery, perhaps you should point out on the map where this is occurring.
When I see nonsense like this written I just want to cry. I hope you are not a science student at an American College or university, but rather, just another skeptic parroting nonsense they picked up on some website or blog.
Please go read about advection–…

Well, if you are going to be an ignorant little #$%^, it is probably a necessary part of the plan to be an arrogantand condescending little #$%^ while you’re at it, huh?
Convection subsumes advection. Please go read about it. In your room. The adults are trying to have a conversation.

Agile Aspect
February 27, 2012 10:31 pm

Doug Cotton says:
February 26, 2012 at 9:06 pm
One simple question; Where is the evidence of empirical measurements of absorptivity of the surface with respect to spontaneous (blackbody) emission with frequencies in the range of those for atmospheric temperatures?
;——————————————————————————
Evidence in science is an empirical measurement.
By absorptivity of the surface – are you referring to horizontal direction?
Or are you interested in the heat capacity of the ground?
For “spontaneous (blackbody) emission” – I can’t parse the phrase.
And the “frequencies in the range of those for atmospheric temperatures” is all of them – they all are important.

February 27, 2012 10:56 pm

For what it’s worth, this article was first published on Jan 25 on my site with 487 comments.
http://joannenova.com.au/2012/01/dr-david-evans-the-skeptics-case/
With respect to the heat accumulating under 700m but not above, sure it’s possible that giant Mississippi rivers of warm water are channeling the surface (which doesn’t seem to be getting warmer) down to 2000m, but it’s more likely that if the water is warming at that depth it’s due to geothermal changes, not changes in a trace gas in the atmosphere.
In any case, remember that there is No Debate, that Skeptics are Deniers, There IS No Controversy,
we know the world is warming due to CO2 absolutely, but the hot spot is missing, the models are wrong, and instead all that certainty rests solely on evidence is that water below 700m is heating due to mysterious currents. What could possibly go wrong?

R. Gates
February 27, 2012 10:56 pm

JJ says:
“Substantial heating of the entire 700-2000m layer (or the average thereof) without showing up in the 0-700m layer would require a very large quantity of heat transiting a very small area. Given that your personal clairvoyance can see past this mystery, perhaps you should point out on the map where this is occurring.”
——-
Yes, a very large quantity heat, mass, and salinity does transit relatively small area in the THC. Perhaps if you really understood the advection you understand how such relatively narrow pipeline in the ocean is possible and how simply thinking in terms of general convection doesn’t allow the insights to understand advection.
I will not do your home work for you JJ. You can find your own maps of the THC that are readily available on he web and they’ll show you the many locations around the world’s oceans where advective driven downwelling is occurring. But I would imagine that your mind is closed to the idea that advection could be a reasonable and likely way that heat could be transported to the deeper ocean.

R. Gates
February 27, 2012 11:16 pm

Bart says:
February 27, 2012 at 6:16 pm
R. Gates says:
February 27, 2012 at 5:36 pm
“You seem to have no idea what you are talking about.”
I’m not the one arguing that heat cannot escape a fluid flow. I suggest you take a first year course in fluid mechanics.
Don’t you see that you are grasping? At the very least, this dubious phenomenon was not anticipated. How many other phenomena do the AGW camp not anticipate? Why are unexpected WAGS which support the hypothesis on a stronger footing than those which do not?
——–
I never said heat could not escape a fluid flow. This is taking the argument to an absurd extreme.
I hardly think that looking a primary way that energy is tranported into and around the deepest parts of Earth’s largest energy storage battery is “grasping at straws”. Also the notion (supported by models of course) that the majority of the warming from greenhouse gas increases will go into the oceans is hardly a WAG– though skeptics would like to paint it as such. It has been stated as the expectation for many many years and shown consistently in the data. Skeptics can simply get more traction by focusing on the natural variabilty of the much weaker and smaller heat storage container called the troposphere.

February 27, 2012 11:25 pm

After posting that there has been around a 1degC rise for a 30% rise in CO2 various posters have ‘corrected’ this claim by stating that it is only a 0.7degC for a 45% rise in CO2. And that some of the rise is due to an increase in solar output or the PDO cycle.
Well Leif has shown that the supposed rise in solar output may be an artifact of changing observational methods. I challenge any of the PDO fans to show more than a 0.2degC change between peak and trough of this hypothetical ‘cycle’. Actually I challenge anyone to name the peak and trough years and show that there IS a regular 60 year cycle from any temperature data.
But even given all these caveats we still end up with ~0.5degC for a ~40% CO2 rise as the transient sensitivity of the climate.
And given the ongoing loss of ice and snow cover in the spring and summer changing the albedo and absorption of solar energy and the measured increase in water vapour in the atmosphere there is clearly more warming in the ‘pipeline’.
It is surprising to still see some posters refusing to accept that CO2 has ANY effect on the energy flows in the climate when there are direct measurement in the change in the spectrum of downwelling radiation and the energy emitted to space.
Perhaps the enthusiasm for rejecting the CO2 effect on climate makes them impervious to direct physical evidence ?

JJ
February 27, 2012 11:41 pm

Rgates spewed:
I will not do your home work for you JJ.

Sweetie, it isnt my homework. You are the one claiming this mechanism. It is up to you to demonstrate it. Point out on the map where this extra downwelling is occuring. Extra, because THC is not new. You have to demonstrate that it has increased by an amount sufficient to heat the lower part of the upper half of the entire ocean to a degree that replaces the heat that is currently missing from both the upper ocean and the atmosphere, wrt model prediction. You haven’t done that work. You are just making stuff up, and chiding others with your misunderstanding of the concepts whose names you have only recently been introduced to.
.But I would imagine that your mind is closed to the idea that advection could be a reasonable and likely way that heat could be transported to the deeper ocean.
Not at all. I’d love to see a mechanism that can put global warming quantities of heat into the lower ocean. Such a mechanism can also bring it back. Lets see it. Show your work.
And you owe Typhoon an apology. He was right. You were worng. Very egregiously and smarmily wrong.

Agile Aspect
February 28, 2012 12:14 am

George E. Smith; says:
February 27, 2012 at 12:10 pm
Consequently RADIATION is NOT a process for transporting “heat”.
Conduction and Convection are the two mechanisms for the transport of “heat”; RADIATION is a means of transport of “”””” ENERGY “””””.
;———————————————————————————————————————–
Both statements are false.
Thermal radiation is heat or energy. And all thermal radiation is electromagnetic radiation.
Conduction and convection are bulk transfers of thermal radiation. It doesn’t matter if it’s a gas, a liquid or a solid – if the electron density of the atoms or molecules changes, it will radiate as long as the matter is above absolute zero.
For conduction and convection, it’s much easier to deal with bulk heat capacities.
If one heats Tungsten to around 3300 C by conduction, then pass the emitted heat through a prism, it produces a continuous frequency distribution.
See the the Stefan-Boltzmann equation which relates radiation to temperature (and indirectly into heat if one knows the heat capacities.)
Even matter can be converted to heat or energy.

Agile Aspect
February 28, 2012 12:25 am

George E. Smith; says:
February 27, 2012 at 12:10 pm
The thermal radiation being emitted by your body peaks at 10 microns.

Bart
February 28, 2012 12:40 am

R. Gates says:
February 27, 2012 at 11:16 pm
I hardly think that looking a primary way that energy is tranported into and around the deepest parts of Earth’s largest energy storage battery is “grasping at straws”.’
It’s a complete and total flail. How does the THC get started? Warm water flows to the poles, where it cools from evaporation and becomes more saline. The increased density makes it sink into the warmer water below. You are claiming this denser, colder water is transporting heat to a warmer place. Or, you are claiming greater salinity resulting from, perhaps, increased evaporation, resulting in sufficient density for the water to sink with greater heat content. But, can increased evaporation from warmer water result in greater salinity so that the water sinks at greater temperature? No, because the upper ocean shows no heating.
The conveyor still exists at the surface all the way from the tropics to the poles. So, there is absolutely no way for heat to be transported to the depths in this way without observable heating of the surface.
You’re right. It is not grasping at straws. It is grasping at thin air.
“It has been stated as the expectation for many many years and shown consistently in the data.”
What has been shown consistently in the data? WHAT??? From 0-700m, there is no heating since accurate measurements started. Below that, the measurements showing supposed heating are within the error bars. We cannot have any confidence AT ALL that there is any heating at depth.
You’re not even grasping at air. You are grasping at the vacuum of space. This is ridiculous.

Markus Fitzhenry
February 28, 2012 1:59 am

Gatesie
‘So only understanding the very general case of convection, does not allow you understand the nature and dynamics of advection as it relates to one of the most important advective processes involving both weather and climate– the THC, and in how heat, mass, and salinity can be transported to the deeper ocean without warming or diffusing out in upper layers. In the case of the upper layers of the ocean, an advective “river runs through it” and it is called the THC.’
Your are equating heat with energy. Probably not a good idea in explaining in the properties of advection.

February 28, 2012 2:16 am

izen says:
I challenge any of the PDO fans to show more than a 0.2degC change between peak and trough of this hypothetical ‘cycle’. Actually I challenge anyone to name the peak and trough years and show that there IS a regular 60 year cycle from any temperature data.
==============================================
You mean like E. Davis and Michael Mann’s paper: “A Distinctly Interdecadal Signal of Pacific Ocean–Atmosphere Interaction”, published in the Journal of Climate.
I.e.,
“Long-term records of an index of spatial SST patterns called the Pacific (inter) decadal oscillation
(PDO) capture this abrupt state shift and also demonstrate a strong tendency for multiyear and multidecadal persistence (Mantua et al. 1997; Mantua and Hare 2002). Given the persistence of these temperature anomaly fields and the significant influence of the Pacific Basin on global climate, changes in oceanic conditions like those characterized by the PDO could have a
major impact on climate forecasting.”
http://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/pdf/10.1175/JCLI3367.1
Another facepalm moment…

February 28, 2012 3:07 am

izen.
You may wish to check out the plot at the foot of my Home page. http://climate-change-theory.com and note the comment below it.

February 28, 2012 3:25 am

Agile http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/02/26/the-skeptics-case/#comment-907118
This post and all of yours I have noticed display a serious lack of knowledge of physics which makes it quite clear that you could not pass exams for a B.Sc. in physics. Correct me if you once did, but you must never have understood the difference between radiation, energy and heat, for starters. What does UV radiation do, for example?

Izen
February 28, 2012 3:28 am

@- will nitschke
You reference a study on less than 60 years of data to justify a claim that there is a 60 year cycle???
It needs at least three cycles to identify a cyclic system as any rule nose.
Facepalm indeed!

February 28, 2012 4:02 am

R. Gates says:
February 27, 2012 at 6:06 pm
What we’d really like to do is “tag” a certain parcel of thermal energy and follow it as it flows from atmosphere to ocean surface
_________________________________________
Yes well, what I’d like to see is it even get from somewhere up in the atmosphere to the ocean surface. Warm air normally rises, but I guess you may live on the opposite side of the World to me. And I hope you aren’t banking on your parcel of “thermal energy” remaining the same as its potential energy increases or decreases – whichever way your magic wand is going to control it to go – up, down or perhaps sideways – maybe by diffusion, convection or radiation – just so long as you manage to violate the Second Law of Thermodynamics, you’ll be right.
http://climate-change-theory.com/RadiationAbsorption.html

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