The Skeptics Case

Who Are You Going To Believe – The Government Climate Scientists or The Data?

By Dr David M.W. Evans (republished here with permission, PDF link below)

We check the main predictions of the climate models against the best and latest data. Fortunately the climate models got all their major predictions wrong. Why? Every serious skeptical scientist has been consistently saying essentially the same thing for over 20 years, yet most people have never heard the message – here it is, put simply enough for any lay reader willing to pay attention.

What the Government Climate Scientists Say

Figure 1: The climate models. If the CO2 level doubles (as it is on course to do by about 2070 to 2100), the climate models estimate the temperature increase due to that extra CO2 will be about 1.1°C × 3 = 3.3°C.i

The direct effect of CO2 is well-established physics, based on laboratory results, and known for over a century.ii

Feedbacks are due to the ways the Earth reacts to the direct warming effect of the CO2. The threefold amplification by feedbacks is based on the assumption, or guess, made around 1980, that more warming due to CO2 will cause more evaporation from the oceans and that this extra water vapor will in turn lead to even more heat trapping because water vapor is the main greenhouse gas. And extra heat will cause even more evaporation, and so on. This amplification is built into all the climate models.iii The amount of amplification is estimated by assuming that nearly all the industrial-age warming is due to our CO2.

The government climate scientists and the media often tell us about the direct effect of the CO2, but rarely admit that two thirds of their projected temperature increases are due to amplification by feedbacks.

What the Skeptics Say 

image

Figure 2: The skeptic’s view. If the CO2 level doubles, skeptics estimates that the temperature increase due to that extra CO2 will be about 1.1°C × 0.5 ≈ 0.6°C.iv

The serious skeptical scientists have always agreed with the government climate scientists about the direct effect of CO2. The argument is entirely about the feedbacks.

The feedbacks dampen or reduce the direct effect of the extra CO2, cutting it roughly in half.v The main feedbacks involve evaporation, water vapor, and clouds. In particular, water vapor condenses into clouds, so extra water vapor due to the direct warming effect of extra CO2 will cause extra clouds, which reflect sunlight back out to space and cool the earth, thereby reducing the overall warming.

There are literally thousands of feedbacks, each of which either reinforces or opposes the direct warming effect of the extra CO2. Almost every long-lived system is governed by net feedback that dampens its response to a perturbation. If a system instead reacts to a perturbation by amplifying it, the system is likely to reach a tipping point and become unstable (like the electronic squeal that erupts when a microphone gets too close to its speakers). The earth’s climate is long-lived and stable— it has never gone into runaway greenhouse, unlike Venus — which strongly suggests that the feedbacks dampen temperature perturbations such as that from extra CO2.

What the Data Says

The climate models have been essentially the same for 30 years now, maintaining roughly the same sensitivity to extra CO2even while they got more detailed with more computer power.

  • How well have the climate models predicted the temperature?
  • Does the data better support the climate models or the skeptic’s view?

Air Temperatures

One of the earliest and most important predictions was presented to the US Congress in 1988 by Dr James Hansen, the “father of global warming”:

image

Figure 3: Hansen’s predictionsvi to the US Congress in 1988, compared to the subsequent temperatures as measured by NASA satellitesvii.

Hansen’s climate model clearly exaggerated future temperature rises.

In particular, his climate model predicted that if human CO2 emissions were cut back drastically starting in 1988, such that by year 2000 the CO2 level was not rising at all, we would get his scenario C. But in reality the temperature did not even rise this much, even though our CO2 emissions strongly increased – which suggests that the climate models greatly overestimate the effect of CO2 emissions.

A more considered prediction by the climate models was made in 1990 in the IPCC’s First Assessment Report:viii

image

Figure 4: Predictions of the IPCC’s First Assessment Report in 1990, compared to the subsequent temperatures as measured by NASA satellites.

It’s 20 years now, and the average rate of increase in reality is below the lowest trend in the range predicted by the IPCC.

Ocean Temperatures

The oceans hold the vast bulk of the heat in the climate system. We’ve only been measuring ocean temperature properly since mid-2003, when the Argo system became operational.ix,x In Argo, a buoy duck dives down to a depth of 2,000 meters, measures temperatures as it very slowly ascends, then radios the results back to headquarters via satellite. Over three thousand Argo buoys constantly patrol all the oceans of the world.

image

Figure 5: Climate model predictionsxi of ocean temperature, versus the measurements by Argoxii. The unit of the vertical axis is 1022 Joules (about 0.01°C).

The ocean temperature has been basically flat since we started measuring it properly, and not warming as quickly as the climate models predict.

Atmospheric Hotspot

The climate models predict a particular pattern of atmospheric warming during periods of global warming; the most prominent change they predict is a warming in the tropics about 10 km up, the “hotspot”.

The hotspot is the sign of the amplification in their theory (see Figure 1). The theory says the hotspot is caused by extra evaporation, and by extra water vapor pushing the warmer wetter lower troposphere up into volume previously occupied by cool dry air. The presence of a hotspot would indicate amplification is occurring, and vice versa.

We have been measuring atmospheric temperatures with weather balloons since the 1960s. Millions of weather balloons have built up a good picture of atmospheric temperatures over the last few decades, including the warming period from the late 70’s to the late 90’s. This important and pivotal data was not released publicly by the climate establishment until 2006, and then in an obscure place.xiii Here it is:

image

Figure 6: On the left is the data collected by millions of weather balloons.xiv On the right is what the climate models say was happening.xv The theory (as per the climate models) is incompatible with the observations. In both diagrams the horizontal axis shows latitude, and the right vertical axis shows height in kilometers.

In reality there was no hotspot, not even a small one. So in reality there is no amplification – the amplification shown in Figure 1 does not exist.xvi

Outgoing Radiation

The climate models predict that when the surface of the earth warms, less heat is radiated from the earth into space (on a weekly or monthly time scale). This is because, according to the theory, the warmer surface causes more evaporation and thus there is more heat-trapping water vapor. This is the heat-trapping mechanism that is responsible for the assumed amplification in Figure 1.

Satellites have been measuring the radiation emitted from the earth for the last two decades. A major study has linked the changes in temperature on the earth’s surface with the changes in the outgoing radiation. Here are the results:

image

Figure 7: Outgoing radiation from earth (vertical axis) against sea surface temperature (horizontal), as measured by the ERBE satellites (upper left graph) and as “predicted” by 11 climate models (the other graphs).xvii Notice that the slope of the graphs for the climate models are opposite to the slope of the graph for the observed data.

This shows that in reality the earth gives off more heat when its surface is warmer. This is the opposite of what the climate models predict. This shows that the climate models trap heat too aggressively, and that their assumed amplification shown in Figure 1 does not exist.

Conclusions

All the data here is impeccably sourced—satellites, Argo, and weather balloons.xviii

The air and ocean temperature data shows that the climate models overestimate temperature rises. The climate establishment suggest that cooling due to undetected aerosols might be responsible for the failure of the models to date, but this excuse is wearing thin—it continues not to warm as much as they said it would, or in the way they said it would. On the other hand, the rise in air temperature has been greater than the skeptics say could be due to CO2. The skeptic’s excuse is that the rise is mainly due to other forces – and they point out that the world has been in a fairly steady warming trend of 0.5°C per century since 1680 (with alternating ~30 year periods of warming and mild cooling) where as the vast bulk of all human CO2 emissions have been after 1945.

We’ve checked all the main predictions of the climate models against the best data:

image

The climate models get them all wrong. The missing hotspot and outgoing radiation data both, independently, prove that the amplification in the climate models is not present. Without the amplification, the climate model temperature predictions would be cut by at least two thirds, which would explain why they overestimated the recent air and ocean temperature increases.

Therefore:

  1. The climate models are fundamentally flawed. Their assumed threefold amplification by feedbacks does not in fact exist.
  2. The climate models overestimate temperature rises due to CO2 by at least a factor of three.

The skeptical view is compatible with the data.

Some Political Points

The data presented here is impeccably sourced, very relevant, publicly available, and from our best instruments. Yet it never appears in the mainstream media – have you ever seen anything like any of the figures here in the mainstream media? That alone tells you that the “debate” is about politics and power, and not about science or truth.

This is an unusual political issue, because there is a right and a wrong answer and everyone will know which it is eventually. People are going ahead and emitting CO2 anyway, so we are doing the experiment: either the world heats up by several degrees by 2050, or it doesn’t.

Notice that the skeptics agree with the government climate scientists about the direct effect of CO2; they just disagree just about the feedbacks. The climate debate is all about the feedbacks; everything else is merely a sideshow. Yet hardly anyone knows that. The government climate scientists and the mainstream media have framed the debate in terms of the direct effect of CO2 and sideshows such as arctic ice, bad weather, or psychology. They almost never mention the feedbacks. Why is that? Who has the power to make that happen?

About the Author

Dr David M.W. Evans consulted full-time for the Australian Greenhouse Office (now the Department of Climate Change) from 1999 to 2005, and part-time 2008 to 2010, modeling Australia’s carbon in plants, debris, mulch, soils, and forestry and agricultural products. Evans is a mathematician and engineer, with six university degrees including a PhD from Stanford University in electrical engineering. The area of human endeavor with the most experience and sophistication in dealing with feedbacks and analyzing complex systems is electrical engineering, and the most crucial and disputed aspects of understanding the climate system are the feedbacks. The evidence supporting the idea that CO2 emissions were the main cause of global warming reversed itself from 1998 to 2006, causing Evans to move from being a warmist to a skeptic.

Inquiries to david.evans@sciencespeak.com.

Republished on www.wattsupwiththat.com

This document is also available as a PDF file here: TheSkepticsCase

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References

i More generally, if the CO2 level is x (in parts per million) then the climate models estimate the temperature increase due to the extra CO2 over the pre-industrial level of 280 ppm as 4.33 ln(x / 280). For example, this model attributes a temperature rise of 4.33 ln(392/280) = 1.46°C to the increase from pre-industrial to the current CO2 level of 392 ppm.

ii The direct effect of CO2 is the same for each doubling of the CO2 level (that is, logarithmic). Calculations of the increased surface temperature due to of a doubling of the CO2 level vary from 1.0°C to 1.2°C. In this document we use the midpoint value 1.1°C; which value you use does not affect the arguments made here.

iii The IPCC, in their last Assessment Report in 2007, project a temperature increase for a doubling of CO2 (called the climate sensitivity) in the range 2.0°C to 4.5°C. The central point of their model estimates is 3.3°C, which is 3.0 times the direct CO2 effect of 1.1°C, so we simply say their amplification is threefold. To be more precise, each climate model has a slightly different effective amplification, but they are generally around 3.0.

iv More generally, if the CO2 level is x (in parts per million) then skeptics estimate the temperature increase due to the extra CO2 over the pre-industrial level of 280 ppm as 0.72 ln(x / 280). For example, skeptics attribute a temperature rise of 0.72 ln(392/280) = 0.24°C to the increase from pre-industrial to the current CO2 level of 392 ppm.

v The effect of feedbacks is hard to pin down with empirical evidence because there are more forces affecting the temperature than just changes in CO2 level, but seems to be multiplication by something between 0.25 and 0.9. We have used 0.5 here for simplicity.

vi Hansen’s predictions were made in Hansen et al, Journal of Geophysical Research, Vol 93 No D8 (20 Aug 1988) Fig 3a Page 9347: pubs.giss.nasa.gov/docs/1988/1988_Hansen_etal.pdf. In the graph here, Hansen’s three scenarios are graphed to start from the same point in mid-1987 – we are only interested in changes (anomalies).

vii The earth’s temperature shown here is as measured by the NASA satellites that have been measuring the earth’s temperature since 1979, managed at the University of Alabama Hunstville (UAH). Satellites measure the temperature 24/7 over broad swathes of land and ocean, across the whole world except the poles. While satellites had some initial calibration problems, those have long since been fully fixed to everyone’s satisfaction. Satellites are mankind’s most reliable, extensive, and unbiased method for measuring the earth’s air temperature temperatures since 1979. This is an impeccable source of data, and you can download the data yourself from vortex.nsstc.uah.edu/data/msu/t2lt/uahncdc.lt (save it as .txt file then open it in Microsoft Excel; the numbers in the “Globe” column are the changes in MSU Global Monthly Mean Lower Troposphere Temperatures in °C).

viii IPCC First Assessment Report, 1990, page xxii (www.ipcc.ch/ipccreports/far/wg_I/ipcc_far_wg_I_full_report.pdf) in the Policymakers Summary, Figure 8 and surrounding text, for the business-as-usual scenario (which is what in fact occurred, there being no significant controls or decrease in the rate of increase of emissions to date). “Under the IPCC Business-as-Usual (Scenario A) emissions of greenhouse gases, the average rate of increase of global mean temperature during the next century is estimated to be about 0.3°C per decade (with an uncertainty range of 0.2°C to 0.5°C).”

ix http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/weather/marine/observations/gathering_data/argo.html

x Ocean temperature measurements before Argo are nearly worthless. Before Argo, ocean temperature was measured with buckets or with bathythermographs (XBTs) — which are expendable probes lowered into the water, transmitting temperature and pressure data back along a pair of thin wires. Nearly all measurements were from ships along the main commercial shipping lanes, so geographical coverage of the world’s oceans was poor—for example the huge southern oceans were not monitored. XBTs do not go as deep as Argo floats, and their data is much less precise and much less accurate (for one thing, they move too quickly through the water to come to thermal equilibrium with the water they are trying to measure).

xi The climate models project ocean heat content increasing at about 0.7 × 10^22 Joules per year. See Hansen et al, 2005: Earth’s energy imbalance: Confirmation and implications. Science, 308, 1431-1435, page 1432 (pubs.giss.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/abstract.cgi?id=ha00110y), where the increase in ocean heat content per square meter of surface, in the upper 750m, according to typical models, is 6.0 Watt·year/m2 per year, which converts to 0.7 × 10^22 Joules per year for the entire ocean as explained at bobtisdale.wordpress.com/2011/06/14/giss-ohc-model-trends-one-question-answered-another-uncovered/.

xii The ocean heat content down to 700m as measured by Argo is now available; you can download it from ftp://ftp.nodc.noaa.gov/pub/data.nodc/woa/DATA_ANALYSIS/3M_HEAT_CONTENT/DATA/basin/3month/ohc_levitus_climdash_seasonal.csv. The numbers are the changes in average heat for the three months, in units of 10^22 Joules, seasonally adjusted. The Argo system started in mid-2003, so we started the data at 2003-6.

xiii The weather balloon data showing the atmospheric warming pattern was finally released in 2006, in the US Climate Change Science Program, 2006, part E of Figure 5.7, on page 116 (www.climatescience.gov/Library/sap/sap1-1/finalreport/sap1-1-final-chap5.pdf).

There is no other data for this period, and we cannot collect more data on atmospheric warming during global warming until global warming resumes. This is the only data there is. Btw, isn’t this an obscure place to release such important and pivotal data – you don’t suppose they are trying to hide something, do you?

xiv See previous endnote.

xv Any climate model, for example, IPCC Assessment Report 4, 2007, Chapter 9, page 675, which is also on the web at http://www.ipcc.ch/publications_and_data/ar4/wg1/en/ch9s9-2-2.html (Figure 9.1 parts c and f). There was little warming 1959 – 1977, so the commonly available 1959 – 1999 simulations work as well.

xvi So the multiplier in the second box in Figures 1 and 2 is at most 1.0.

xvii Lindzen and Choi 2009, Geophysical Research Letters Vol. 36: http://www.drroyspencer.com/Lindzen-and-Choi-GRL-2009.pdf. The paper was corrected after some criticism, coming to essentially the same result again in 2011: www-eaps.mit.edu/faculty/lindzen/236-Lindzen-Choi-2011.pdf.

xviii In particular, we have not quoted results from land thermometers, or from sparse sampling by buckets and XBT’s at sea. Land thermometers are notoriously susceptible to localized effects – see Is the Western Climate Establishment Corrupt? by the same author: jonova.s3.amazonaws.com/corruption/climate-corruption.pdf.

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More Soylent Green!
February 27, 2012 6:54 am

A do have to quibble about the title — There is not one definitive Skeptics Case; perhaps A Skeptics Case is better? More accurately, it could be titled The Skeptics Case Against Runaway Global Warming from Imaginary Feedbacks, but that does lack zing.
BTW: Does anybody know why the climate models show all those feedbacks? They were programmed that way.

JJ
February 27, 2012 7:21 am

izen says:
Just how ridiculous the argument put forward here by Dr David Evans can be seen by the fact that the claimed rise of ~1 degC from a doubling of CO2 alone without the feedbacks has ALLREADY occurred with just about a 30% increase in CO2 over the last century.

Don’t be silly. CO2 has gone up 35% since 1950 or so. Temp over the same period, if you believe data published by documented liars, is up 0.7C. To make your point, you are understating the co2 rise, overstating the temp rise, extending the period to a time before co2 ramped up, and assuming that the entire temp increase was caused by co2 despite the fact that temp has been rising for longer than co2 has been rising.
These are exactly the sort of data massaging exercises that drive CAGW. Raise this a little, lower that a little, push this around a bit, throw in a convenient error band here, for gawds sake dont admit to the true error band there, top with a dollop of fudge … there, it fits the scary story.

Roger Clague
February 27, 2012 7:24 am

Dr. Evans says his understanding of the effect of CO2 is “based on laboratory results and known for over a century”.
His reference does not lead me to these results. What are they?
Dr. Evans then comments about the effect of doubling CO2 levels.
But if there is no effect of Co2, as I and many others I believe, then doubling CO2 it will not change that.

ferd berple
February 27, 2012 7:25 am

R. Gates says:
February 26, 2012 at 5:39 pm
And did the native people of North America living near what would become “Minneapolis” happen to accurately record temperatures in the 1600′s?
More accurately than has been done over the last 2 decades, you can be sure. The difference is that for the native people, their lives depended on an accurate record, passed through oral tradition from generation to generation. Modern climate science relies on an exaggerated record to generate their livelihood, which is a threat to the rest of us.

More Soylent Green!
February 27, 2012 7:36 am

R. Gates says:
February 26, 2012 at 3:48 pm
Mike says:
February 26, 2012 at 3:39 pm
Explain this: http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs_v3/Fig.A2.gif
____
The skeptics would chalk it up to “natural variability” or perhaps, “recovery from the Little Ice Age”, or my favorite, “the sun did it all”.

And we’re just supposed to take your (smug) word for it that it’s not (natural)? Seriously, what (actually) evidence do you have that it’s not natural (climate change)?

Werner Brozek
February 27, 2012 7:39 am

R. Gates says:
February 26, 2012 at 10:10 pm
Don’t know what graphing program you are using

It was right above this line in what you quoted back to me:
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/hadsst2gl/from:1980/plot/hadsst2gl/from:1997.08/trend/plot/hadsst2gl/from:2002.08/trend
I question how reliable the information is for all of the deep ocean going back 40 years. But let us assume just for argument sake that all of the deep oceans did indeed warm up as much as they say, why should we be concerned about it? Deeper parts of the earth is still much, much warmer. If that heat never reaches the surface, other than via the odd volcano, why should we spend billions to prevent an extremely slight warming of the deep ocean? It is not as if the extra 0.01 C over the whole deep ocean will suddenly accumulate in one place and blast us and fry us.

February 27, 2012 7:46 am

Anthony’s neologism “Gleickness” made my day.
Anyway, to the point: the expected tropical hotspot is presented here with no acknowledgement whatsoever of the rebuttals that are fairly abundant around the warmist web, stating that
1.the balloon measurements are fairly problematic so no conclusion can be inferred; that
2.in other graphs the hotspot is indeed right there, fairly visible; and
3. that it’s just caused by any form of warming=>evaporation, not just a proposed CO2 warming effect, so it’s pretty pointless to descrlbe such hotspots as significant in a debate over the _causes_ of warming.
Please, Dr.Evans!
Until those objections have been convincingly answered, it’s unprofessional and detrimental to your credibility to simply insist on repeating the original point about the absence of the hotspot.

February 27, 2012 7:50 am

Alessandro,
Those false talking points have been repeatedly deconstructed.
The radiosonde balloons are extremely accurate. The predicted tropospheric hotspot simply does not exist, no matter what claims are made to the contrary. And all “causes of warming” have not been idententified. But CO2 can be only a very minor cause, as rising CO2 over the past 15 years shows: there has been no corresponding rise in temperature. Further, rises in CO2 are an effect of rising temperature.

February 27, 2012 7:59 am

litsnotnova says:
February 27, 2012 at 3:01 am

Ocean Heat Content does show an increase so long as you don’t cherry pick just the first 700 meters. Data going down deeper to Argo’s 2000 meter range shows that the heat has been accumulating despite the short timeframe for which data is being collected.
http://www.nodc.noaa.gov/OC5/3M_HEAT_CONTENT/
I think it’s deceptive of the author to talk about Argo buoys going down to 2,000 meters, then only show a graph with data to 700 meters.

The three possible mechanisms of heat transfer are convection, conduction, and radiation.
How does heat accumulate down at 2000m without first warming the 2000m above?

Werner Brozek
February 27, 2012 8:05 am

izen says:
February 27, 2012 at 6:52 am
It has warmed around 1 degC for a 30% increase in CO2.

We have had several nearly identical warming spells over the last 150 years. See
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8511670.stm
Here are the trends and significances for each period:
Period Length Trend
(Degrees C per decade) Significance
1860-1880 21 0.163 Yes
1910-1940 31 0.15 Yes
1975-1998 24 0.166 Yes
1975-2009 35 0.161 Yes
So if the first two had nothing to do with CO2, why should the ones after 1940 have anything to do with CO2?

Werner Brozek
February 27, 2012 8:18 am

Alessandro says:
February 27, 2012 at 7:46 am
Please, Dr.Evans!
Until those objections have been convincingly answered, it’s unprofessional and detrimental to your credibility to simply insist on repeating the original point about the absence of the hotspot.

If you would like to read a 26 page article by Dr. Evans on the lack of a hot spot, see:
The Missing Hotspot – Science Speak

Vincent Guerrini PhD
February 27, 2012 8:36 am

Look we’re at neutral POI
http://weather.unisys.com/surface/sfc_daily.php?plot=ssa&inv=0&t=cur&expanddiv=hide_bar
Temps are really shooting down. There is NO WARMING!
http://discover.itsc.uah.edu/amsutemps/ 600 or 400mb
so its all gibberish. I reckon C02 has NIL effect on atmospheric temps ALL extra heat caused by any gas on earth is probably dissipated through vapour negative feedback effects. You might as well say 2 much Oxygen causes Global warming

David
February 27, 2012 8:40 am

Alessandro says:
February 27, 2012 at 7:46 am
—————————————————
Alessandro, there has been some warming in the “hotspot” region as predicted by the models. Ross Mckitrick clearly showed that the warming observed was 1/2 to 1/4 of the predictied warming of the models. In other words, like sea level rise, like atmospheric T, like hurricanes, droughts etc, etc, it just aint there.

AC
February 27, 2012 8:47 am

I have some questions that perhaps a more knowledgeable person could answer.
After looking at a climate skeptic-skeptic page (yes double negative, so they actually believe in AGW while denying AGW skeptics) they referenced that the deap oceans are now taking on more heat and then showed pretty 50 year graphs with comments about ARGO doing the measuring. What bugged me was that they had data doing back to 1960 in this graph while admiting that the ARGO bouys are from post 2000. So is there any data on ocean temps going back to the 1960’s? how good is it, etc? If all we have is ARGO from 2000+ then I’m inclined to think we need more data points.
Second – is there any idea what the ocean is doing with the heat? again the skeptic-skeptic site basically said that the ocean held about 90% of our heat mass. Is that right (within order of magnitude)? Depending on rate of ocean heating I can see how that would create some intertia in GCC (up or down).
BTW the point in the OP’s article about increased radiation with increased surface temp makes sense all things being equal. I suppose the point of AGW is that CO2 changes that ‘equilibrium’

David
February 27, 2012 8:48 am

izen says:
February 27, 2012 at 6:52 am
@- Smokey
“As usual, Izen is wrong. Real world observations are falsifying the 3°C per 2xCO2 belief. So who should we believe? Planet earth? Or Izen?”
izen says…Believe the real world.
It has warmed around 1 degC for a 30% increase in CO2.
How that ‘falsifies’ a projection of 3 degC for a doubling, 100% increase in CO2 I am not sure, perhaps you could explain….
=========================================
Izen, nice try, but is it not fair, when you copy a posters coment to include the link they gave with that comment? You did not engage with Smokey’s assertion and left out his link, it stands, your comments are not cogent. http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/5721/newhadcrut3warming.png

February 27, 2012 8:56 am

RockyRoad:February 26, 2012 at 12:41 pm sais:
“….If water is THE predominant greenhouse gas, it doesn’t need any warming assistance from CO2….”
You know, Rocky makes a helluva point there…
Should not ANY sudden increase in temperature lead to an increase of water in the atmosphere leading to a runaway greenhouse effect?
Does the system really care if an increased level of atmospheric water is heated by CO2 or by other atmospheric water?
I’d love to hear some learned opinion on this.

More Soylent Green!
February 27, 2012 9:28 am

R. Gates says:
February 26, 2012 at 4:49 pm

It sounds to that you are deliberately (falsely) equating warming with AGW. (Again) totally ignoring natural processes.
(Once again) you discard the null hypothesis, (something) you repeatedly do, regardless of being called out on each time.

Resourceguy
February 27, 2012 9:46 am

This is a keeper. Thanks!

MarkW
February 27, 2012 10:02 am

scepticalwombat says:
February 26, 2012 at 12:09 pm
It takes 14 years for temperature to return to the trend line????

MarkW
February 27, 2012 10:26 am

“what’s been happening with Arctic sea ice volume, area, and extent over the past 30+ years”
Would that be the 30 years since the PDO switched to it’s warm phase?
Interestingly enough, since the PDO switched back a few years ago, Artic sea ice has been rebuilding.

MarkW
February 27, 2012 10:34 am

“Why is Al Gore and Algae are so much alike when printed out on a blog post.”
Seperated at birth?

February 27, 2012 10:37 am

David says: February 27, 2012 at 6:00 am
“And then Nick wants land only, using Hansens cherry picked adjustment to past historical records, and his inadequat UHI adjustment…”

Land only surface temperature, because that is what he was predicting. Not lower troposphere. But you don’t have to use the GISS index. BEST, for example, matches better than GISS, and NOAA about the same. You can check that here.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
February 27, 2012 1:18 pm

On the other hand – lets simply compare the 2007 IPCC predictions directly with HADRUT3 data updated since the report was published. The trend is well down on actual CO2 level predictions and even well below that fixed at 2000 CO2 levels.
graph here
My guess is that 2012 will resolve this argument one way or the other.

MarkW
February 27, 2012 10:48 am

LazyTeenager says:
February 26, 2012 at 9:59 pm
You don’t need large feedbacks to cause CO2 as a climate forcer to pale into insignificance.
Absent feedbacks, CO2 doubling is only predicted to create 1.1C of warming. That’s nothing. A negative feedback that reduced that by half would not be a strong feedback, yet CO2 forcing is reduced to half of nothing.
PS: Not all forcings trigger the same feedbacks.

Peridot
February 27, 2012 10:50 am

I’m getting a trifle confused here! There seems to be evidence that in the past CO2 levels have increased only following a temperature rise which warms the oceans. Even David Attenborough was convinced by paleoclimatologists’ evidence that 3 million years ago the CO2 level was 11%, and evolution continued apace. Also that CO2 levels have been still higher than that but these rises also occur after many centuries of ‘warming’. Even Al Gore agreed with the rises and falls – but misrepresented them …..very carefully. This would make the tiny rises in CO2 be due to changes in the oceans some time ago.
Thus a rise of a few hundredths of 1% of CO2 would not only be un-catastrophic but not even due to our tiny emissions. Can these two ‘sceptical’ positions be reconciled in a way that I can understand, please?
Also (off topic, I know), is it true that carbon in CO2 emitted from burning fossel fuels has a different atomic weight from other sources, such as dying vegetation?

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