An Initial Look At The Hindcasts Of The NCAR CCSM4 Coupled Climate Model

National Center for Atmospheric Research (NCAR...
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Guest post by Bob Tisdale

OVERVIEW

This post compares the instrument observations of three global temperature anomaly datasets (NINO3, Global, and North Atlantic “Plus”) to the hindcasts of the NCAR couple climate model CCSM4, which was used in a couple of recent peer-reviewed climate studies. Those studies relied solely on the models and do not present time-series graphs that compare observational data to the 20thCentury hindcasts to allow readers to determine if the NCAR CCSM4 model has any basis in reality. So far, I have not seen this done in any of the blog posts that have discussed those studies.

(And for those wondering, NCAR is the National Center for Atmospheric Research, and the CCSM4stands for Community Climate System Model Version 4. CCSM4 is a coupled climate model.)

This post would have been much easier to prepare if the Sea Surface Temperature outputs of the NCAR CCSM4 were available through the Royal Netherlands Meteorological Institute (KNMI) Climate Explorer website. Then I would not have felt obligated to provide as many introductory explanations and graphs, and supplemental comparisons. (The post would have been easier to write, and easier to read.) But since the modeled Sea Surface Temperature data are not available yet, I’ll present, for the time being, the NCAR CCSM4 hindcast surface air temperature anomalies. As noted a number of times throughout this post, if and when the Sea Surface Temperature hindcasts are available through the KNMI Climate Explorer, I will be more than happy to update this post.

Note 1: The period used in this post runs from January 1900 to December 2005 because the NINO3 Sea Surface Temperature anomalies, used in one of the studies, have little to no source data before 1900, and the CCSM4 model hindcast ends in 2005.

Note 2: The source of data for this post, as noted above, is the KNMI Climate Explorer. Surface Air Temperature is available for the NCAR CCSM4 on their Monthly CMIP5 scenario runs webpage, but Sea Surface Temperature (identified as TOS) is not. Therefore, this post compares the Surface Air Temperatures anomalies (which over the oceans would be comparable to Marine Air Temperature anomalies) of the model outputs to Sea Surface temperature anomalies during the discussion of ENSO. And as you will see, this should not present any problems for this discussion. For the model-to-data comparisons of global and of North Atlantic “Plus” surface temperature anomalies, observed land plus sea surface temperature anomalies are compared to the modeled Surface Air Temperature anomalies for land and oceans. This is common practice in posts that compare instrument observations to model outputs at blogs such as Real Climate (Example post: 2010 updates to model-data comparisons) and Lucia’s The Blackboard, (Example post: GISTemp: Up during August!), and it assumes the modeled sea surface temperatures will be roughly the same as the modeled Marine Air Temperatures. (More on this at the end of the post.)

Note 3: This post does not examine the projections of future climate presented in the referenced papers. This post examines how well or poorly the CCSM4 ensemble members and model mean match the observations that are part of the instrument temperature record. You, the reader, will then have to decide whether the model-based studies that use the CCSM4 are of value or whether they should be dismissed as mainframe computer-crunched conjecture.

INTRODUCTION

The National Center for Atmospheric Research (NCAR) Community Climate System Model Version 4 (CCSM4) coupled climate model has been submitted to the Coupled Model Intercomparison Project Phase 5 (CMIP5)archive of coupled climate model simulations. (Phew, try saying that fast, three times.) And much of the data provided to CMIP5 for those models are presently available through the KNMI Climate Explorer Monthly CMIP5 scenario runs webpage. The model data stored in the CMIP5 archive will serve as a source for the next IPCC report, AR5, due in 2013. Refer to the Real Climate post CMIP5 simulationsfor further information.

Two papers based on the NCAR CCSM4 climate model have recently been published. There may be other published papers as well based on the CCSM4. The first is Meehl et al (2011) “Model-based evidence of deep-ocean heat uptake during surface-temperature hiatus periods”, paywalled. Meehl et al (2011) is a model-based study that attempts to illustrate that ocean heat uptake can continue during decadal periods when global surface temperatures flatten. The La Niña portion of the natural climate phenomenon called the El Niño-Southern Oscillation (ENSO) was determined to be the possible cause for the flattening of surface temperatures and for the increase in Ocean Heat uptake. Yup, La Niña events. For me, the paper raised a number of questions. One of them was: Why did Meehl et al (2011) only discuss decadal hiatus periods, during which surface temperatures failed to rise? The instrument temperature record for 20thCentury clearly shows a multidecadal decline in surface temperatures from the mid-1940s to the mid-1970s that is attributable, in part, to a mode of natural variability called the Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation. Doesn’t the NCAR CCSM4 simulate multidecadal variability?

(For an introductory discussion of the Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation, refer to the post An Introduction To ENSO, AMO, and PDO — Part 2.)

The second paper is Stevenson et al (2011) “Will there be a significant change to El Niño in the 21st century?”, also paywalled, but a Preprint exists for it. Stevenson et al (2011) is also a model-based study that attempts to illustrate, from the abstract:

“ENSO variability weakens slightly with CO2; however, various significance tests reveal that changes are insignificant at all but the highest CO2 levels.”

In other words, there is little change in the model depiction of the strength and frequency of El Niño and La Niña events with increasing levels of anthropogenic greenhouse gases. The Stevenson et al (2011) abstract concludes with:

“An examination of atmospheric teleconnections, in contrast, shows that the remote influences of ENSO do respond rapidly to climate change in some regions, particularly during boreal winter. This suggests that changes to ENSO impacts may take place well before changes to oceanic tropical variability itself becomes significant.”

The NCAR “Staff Notes” webpage “El Niño and climate change in the coming century” provides this further explanation:

“However, the warmer and moister atmosphere of the future could make ENSO events more extreme. For example, the model predicts the blocking high pressure south of Alaska that often occurs during La Niña winters to strengthen under future atmospheric conditions, meaning that intrusions of Arctic air into North America typical of La Niña winters could be stronger in the future.”

I suspect we’ll be reading something to the effect of “oh, the cold temperatures were predicted by climate models”, referring to Stevenson et al (2011), if the coming 2011/12 La Niña winter is colder than normal in North America.

Since the El Niño-Southern Oscillation (ENSO) is a major part of both papers, let’s start with it. For those new to ENSO, refer to the post “An Introduction To ENSO, AMO, and PDO – Part 1for further information.

HOW WELL DOES CCSM4 HINDCAST CERTAIN ASPECTS OF ENSO?

Stevenson et al (2011) used NINO3 Sea Surface Temperature (SST) Anomalies as their primary El Niño-Southern Oscillation index. NINO3 is a region in the eastern equatorial Pacific with the coordinates of 5S-5N, 150W-90W. Its sea surface temperature anomalies are used as one of the indices that indicate the frequency and magnitude of El Niño and La Niña events. Unfortunately, the CCSM4 modeled Sea Surface Temperature data are not available for download through the KNMI Climate Explorer as of this writing. That requires us to use the model’s Surface Air Temperature output in the comparisons. The second problem is that the comparable instrument observations dataset, Marine Air Temperature, for the NINO3 region becomes nonexistent before 1950, as shown in Figure 1, and we’d like the comparison to start earlier than 1950.

Figure 1

The other option is to compare Sea Surface Temperature observations for the NINO3 region to the Surface Air Temperature outputs of the model. This should be acceptable in the equatorial Pacific since there is little difference between the observed NINO3 Sea Surface Temperature anomaly and Marine Air Temperature anomaly data. Figure 2 compares observed Sea Surface Temperature anomalies and Marine Air Temperature anomalies from January 1950 to December 2005. As illustrated, there are differences in the magnitude of the year-to-year variability between the two datasets. The Sea Surface Temperature anomalies vary slightly more than the Marine Air Temperature anomalies. But the timing of the variations are similar, as one would expect. The correlation coefficient for the two datasets is 0.92. Also note that the linear trends for the two datasets are basically identical. As mentioned earlier, the comparison of NINO3 Sea Surface Temperature Anomaly observations to the Surface Air Temperature hindcasts for the same region should be reasonable—at least for the purpose of this introductory post.

Figure 2

As I’ve illustrated in numerous earlier posts here, the long-term trend, since 1900, of the more commonly used NINO3.4 Sea Surface Temperature anomalies is basically flat. The same holds true for NINO3 Sea Surface Temperature anomalies, as shown in Figure 3. Based on the linear trend, there has been no rise in the Sea Surface Temperature anomalies for the NINO3 region since 1900. El Niño events dominated from 1900 through the early 1940s, La Niña events prevailed from the early 1940s to the mid 1970s, and then from 1976 to 2005, El Niño events were dominant. In other words, there is a multidecadal component to the frequency and magnitude of El Niño and La Niña events. That’s the reason a trend appears in the data that starts in 1950, Figure 2; the shorter-term data begins during a period when La Niña events dominated and moves into an epoch when El Niño events dominated.

Figure 3

So how well do the ensemble members and ensemble mean of the CCSM4 hindcasts of NINO3 Surface Air Temperatures compare to the NINO3 Sea Surface Temperature observations? Refer to Animation 1. Each of the six ensemble members and the ensemble mean are illustrated by individual graphs. The ensemble member graphs change every three seconds, while the ensemble mean remains in place for six seconds. (This also holds true for Animations 2 and 3.)

Animation 1

The first thing that’s obviously different is that the frequency and magnitude of El Niño and La Niña events of the individual ensemble members do not come close to matching those observed in the instrument temperature record. Should they? Yes. During a given time period, it is the frequency and magnitude of ENSO events that determines how often and how much heat is released by the tropical Pacific into the atmosphere during El Niño events, how much Downward Shortwave Radiation (visible sunlight) is made available to warm “and recharge” the tropical Pacific during La Niña events, and how much heat is transported poleward in the atmosphere and oceans, some of it for secondary release from the oceans during some La Niña events. If the models do not provide a reasonable facsimile of the strength and frequency of El Niño and La Niña events during given epochs, the modelers have no means of reproducing the true causes of the multiyear/multidecade rises and falls of the surface temperature anomalies. The frequency and magnitude of El Niño and La Niña events contribute to the long-term rises and falls in global surface temperature.

Of even greater concern are the NINO3 Surface Air Temperature linear trends exhibited by the CCSM4 model ensemble members and model mean. As discussed earlier, there has been no rise in eastern equatorial Pacific sea surface temperature anomalies from 1900 to present, yet the CCSM4 ensemble members and mean show linear trends that are so high they exceed the rise in measured global surface temperature anomalies. In the real world, cool waters from below the surface of the eastern equatorial Pacific upwell at all times except during El Niño events. It is that feed of cool subsurface water that helps to maintain the relatively flat linear trend there.

The trend in the NCAR CCSM4 NINO3 Surface Air Temperature anomaly hindcast is consistent with their hindcast of NINO3 Sea Surface Temperature anomalies from their previous version of the CCSM coupled climate models, which was the CCSM3. Figure 4 compares observed NINO3 Sea Surface Temperature anomalies to the hindcast of the CCSM3. (There is only one CCSM3 model run of Sea Surface Temperatures available through the KNMI Climate Explorer.) While the trend of the CCSM3 hindcast of NINO3 Sea Surface Temperature anomalies may not be as high as the trend of the CCSM4 hindcast of NINO3 Surface Air Temperatures, they are still showing a significant trend.

Figure 4

And to contradict this, the NCAR website presents NINO3.4 SST anomalies (They do not provide NINO3) with a flat trend over this period. Refer to Figure 5. So it appears as though NCAR understands that eastern equatorial Sea Surface Temperatures have not risen since 1900, based on the linear trend. Yet for some reason, their CCSM4 couple climate model cannot recreate this. (The data for Figure 5 is available at the NCAR webpage here. The dataset was prepared for the Trenberth and Stepaniak (2001) paper “Indices of El Niño evolution.”)

Figure 5

To answer the question that heads this section, the CCSM4 coupled climate model does a poor job hindcasting two important aspects of the El Niño-Southern Oscillation.

(For those new to my posts on ENSO, refer to ENSO Indices Do Not Represent The Process Of ENSO Or Its Impact On Global Temperature.It is written at an introductory level and discusses and illustrates with graphs and animations how and why El Niño and La Niña events are responsible for much of the rise in Global Sea Surface Temperatures over the past 30 years, the era of satellite-based Sea Surface Temperature data.)

HOW WELL DOES CCSM4 HINDCAST GLOBAL SURFACE TEMPERATURE ANOMALIES?

Meehl et al (2011) used HADCRUT Global Surface Temperature anomaly data in their Supplementary Information, so we’ll compare the HADCRUT Land plus Sea Surface Temperature anomaly dataset to the Ensemble Members and Mean for the Surface Air Temperatures of the NCAR CCSM4 on a Global basis. Refer to Animation 2. (It’s formatted the same as Animation 1: Observations Versus Six Ensemble Members and Model Mean.) The most obvious differences between the observations and the model outputs are the trends. The modeled trends are about 50% higher than those observed from 1900 to 2005. That’s a major difference. The other obvious difference is the CCSM4 ensemble members and mean do not appear to have the multidecadal component that is so apparent in the Global Surface Temperature anomaly records. Observed Global Surface Temperatures rose from the 1910s to the 1940s, dropped slightly from the 1940s to the 1970s, and then rose again from the 1970s to the late 1990s/early 2000s. The model outputs rise in the latter part of the 20th century, but fail to rise at a rate comparable to the observations during the early part of the 20thCentury and fail to drop from the 1940s to the 1970s.

Animation 2

And to answer the question that heads this section, the CCSM4 coupled climate model does a poor job hindcasting two important and obvious aspects of the Global Surface Temperature anomaly record from 1900 to 2005.

One of the known contributors to the multidecadal variations in Global Surface Temperature anomaly record is the mode of natural variability called the Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation, or AMO. One might suspect that the AMO does not exist in the CCSM4. Let’s check.

HOW WELL DOES CCSM4 HINDCAST THE ADDITIONAL VARIABILITY IN NORTH ATLANTIC SEA SURFACE TEMPERATURE ANOMALIES?

Note that this is another portion of this post I will redo if and when the CCSM4 Sea Surface Temperature outputs are made available through the KNMI Climate Explorer. Also note that the Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation is typically represented by detrended North Atlantic Sea Surface Temperature anomalies. But the multidecadal variations are easily visible in the “un-detrended” data, so I have not bothered to detrend it in the following graphs.

As discussed earlier, the Sea Surface Temperature outputs of the NCAR CCSM4 are not yet available through the KNMI Climate Explorer. But Sea Surface Temperature anomalies (detrended) are typically used to illustrate the multidecadal variations in the temperature of the North Atlantic. Again, like the global data, we’ll have to assume that the Marine Air Temperature outputs of the model mimic the Sea Surface Temperatures. The second concern is that land makes up 24% of the area included in the coordinates used for the North Atlantic (0-70N, 80W-0), as shown in Figure 6. The variability of land surface temperature can be different than that of Sea Surface Temperatures.

Figure 6

But as we can see in Figure 7, the instrument observation-based Sea Surface Temperature anomalies of the North Atlantic are tracked quite closely by the observed Land-Plus-Sea Surface Temperature anomalies of the North Atlantic “Plus” (where the “Plus” includes the additional Land Surface Temperature anomaly data encompassed by those coordinates).

Figure 7

The NOAA Earth System Research Laboratory (ESRL) uses a 121-month running-average filter to smooth their Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation data. Refer to the ESRL AMO webpage. If we smooth the North Atlantic Sea Surface Temperature anomalies and the North Atlantic “Plus” Land+Sea Surface Temperature anomaly observations using the same 121-month filter, Figure 8, we can see the two curves are nearly identical.

Figure 8

So for the purpose of this post, the comparison of Land+Sea Surface Temperature anomalies to the Surface Air Temperature anomalies of the CCSM4 hindcasts will provide a preliminary look at whether there is a multidecadal component in the North Atlantic “Plus” data where one would expect to find it.

Animation 3 compares observed North Atlantic “Plus” Surface (Land+Sea) Temperature anomalies to the modeled Surface Air Temperatures for the 6 individual ensemble members and the ensemble mean. All data have been smoothed with a 121-month filter. Only two of the six ensemble members hint at multidecadal variability, but the frequency and magnitude are not comparable to the observations.

Animation 3

The NCAR CCSM4 coupled climate model appears to do a poor job of hindcasting the multidecadal variability of North Atlantic temperature anomalies.

NOTE ON MULTIDECADAL VARIABILITY OF MODELS

NOTE: Dr. Kevin Trenberth, Distinguished Senior Scientist at NCAR, and a lead author of three IPCC reports, provided a good overview of the models used in the IPCC AR4 released in 2007. Refer to Nature’s Climate Feedback: Predictions of climate post. There he writes:

“None of the models used by IPCC are initialized to the observed state and none of the climate states in the models correspond even remotely to the current observed climate. In particular, the state of the oceans, sea ice, and soil moisture has no relationship to the observed state at any recent time in any of the IPCC models. There is neither an El Niño sequence nor any Pacific Decadal Oscillation that replicates the recent past; yet these are critical modes of variability that affect Pacific rim countries and beyond. The Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation, that may depend on the thermohaline circulation and thus ocean currents in the Atlantic, is not set up to match today’s state, but it is a critical component of the Atlantic hurricanes and it undoubtedly affects forecasts for the next decade from Brazil to Europe. Moreover, the starting climate state in several of the models may depart significantly from the real climate owing to model errors. I postulate that regional climate change is impossible to deal with properly unless the models are initialized.”

I suspect we’ll see a similar proclamation when AR5 is published.

Kevin Trenberth then tries to explain in the Nature.com article linked above why the differences between the observations and the models do not matter. But they do matter. When a climate change layman (one who makes the effort to look) discovers that the NCAR model CCSM4 hindcasts a global temperature anomaly curve that warms 50% faster than the observed rise from 1900 to 2005 (as shown in Animation 2), they question the model’s ability to project future global temperatures. The perception is, if the hindcast is 50% too high, then the projections must be at least 50% too high. And when the models don’t resemble the global temperature observations, inasmuch as the models do not have the multidecadal variations of the instrument temperature record, the layman becomes wary. They casually research and discover that natural multidecadal variations have stopped the global warming in the past for 30 years, and they believe it can happen again. Also, the layman can see very clearly that the models have latched onto a portion of the natural warming trends, and that the models have projected upwards from there, continuing the naturally higher multidecadal trend, without considering the potential for a future flattening for two or three or four decades. In short, to the layman, the models appear bogus.

A NOTE ABOUT MARINE AIR VERSUS SEA SURFACE TEMPERATURES

Sea Surface Temperature anomaly data are used in the GISS, Hadley Centre, and NCDC global temperature anomaly products. Yet as shown earlier, there are Marine Air Temperature datasets available. I used one, the Hadley Centre’s MOHMAT, in Figures 1 and 2. Sea Surface Temperatures are used for a number of reasons, some of which are discussed in Chapter 3 of the IPCC AR4. (24MB). (A word find of “Marine” or “NMAT”, without the quotes, will bring you to the discussions.) One of the reasons Sea Surface Temperature data is preferred is data availability. If you thought the global source data coverage for Sea Surface Temperature data was poor, there are even fewer instrument observations for Marine Air Temperature. Animation 4 illustrates a series of maps that indicate in purple which 5 deg by 5 deg grids contain data. It doesn’t indicate whether there are 30 observations, or 300, or 1 in a given month, just that there is data in a purple grid. The Animation 4 starts with January 1900 and progresses on a decadal basis through January 2000.

Animation 4

As illustrated, Marine Air Temperature observations in the Southern Hemisphere are rare south of 30S before 1950, they’re rare globally for that matter in the first half of the 20thCentury, and data is virtually nonexistent north of 60N in the Northern Hemisphere even through 2000.

Based on that, we’ll limit the comparisons of observed and modeled Marine Air and Sea Surface Temperature data for the global oceans to 30S-60N, and start them in 1950. The end month of December 1999 is dictated by the hindcasts of the NCAR CCSM3, which is the earlier version of that NCAR coupled climate model. Also note that there was only 1 model run for the CCSM3 Sea Surface Temperatures at the KNMI Climate Explorer.

Figure 9 compares the linear trends of a Marine Air Temperature anomaly dataset (MOHMAT) to two Sea Surface Temperature datasets (HADSST2 and HADISST) for the latitudes of 30S to 60N, from January 1950 to December 1999. These are instrument observation-based datasets. As illustrated, the Marine Air Temperature anomalies rise at a rate that is significantly less than the two Sea Surface Temperature anomaly datasets. The linear trend of the Marine Air Temperature anomalies is about 52% of the average of the trends for the two Sea Surface Temperature anomaly datasets.

Figure 9

On the other hand, the modeled ensemble mean for the Marine Air Temperature output of the NCAR CCSM3 (earlier version) has a linear trend that is more than double the trend of the modeled Sea Surface Temperature anomalies. The relationship is backwards. Does this backwards relationship between Sea Surface and Marine Air Temperatures continue to exist in the CCSM4?

Figure 10

CLOSING

The preliminary look at the hindcasts of the NCAR CCSM4 sheds a different light on the model-based papers of Meehl et al (2011) and Stevenson et al (2011). Those papers are based on a coupled climate model that cannot reproduce essential portions of the 20thCentury Surface Temperature observations.

No matter how well the NCAR CCSM4 can simulate certain aspects and processes of global climate, the fact that it cannot reproduce many portions of the instrument temperature record during the 20thCentury emphasizes failings that call into question its ability to project future global or regional climate change.

SOURCE

All observation-based data presented in the post are available through the KNMI Climate Explorer Monthly observationswebpage, with one exception.

The NCAR NINO3.4 data used in Figure 5 is available through the NCAR TNI (Trans-Niño Index) and N3.4 (Niño 3.4 Index) webpage.

The NCAR CCSM4 and CCSM3 model output data are available through the KNMI Climate Explorer also, through the Monthly CMIP5 scenario runs and Monthly CMIP3+ scenario runs webpages, respectively.

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Theo Goodwin
November 5, 2011 6:06 pm

ferd berple says:
November 5, 2011 at 12:14 pm
You might enjoy the little tidbit that we often bring our model users in for interviews and psychoanalysis. They recognize important patterns in model results but they are unaware that they recognize them. What we get from them can be invaluable. This is all metadata of course.

DirkH
November 5, 2011 6:17 pm

Another comment about my remark above that an erroneous regional “forecast” or state of the model will “spread like wildfire”; maybe that wasn’t clear enough:
CO2 produces warming according to CAGW theory, and warming leads to water vapor feedback. If the model has a regional state that is different from reality at that place and time, it will end up with a too low or too high amount of water vapour. Water vapour produces warming, and more water vapour (according to the orthodoxy, it amplifies CO2 induced warming by a factor of 3 to 4.5 depending on the mood of the researcher).
What happens to the water vapour? Well, it sticks in its region forever, right?
Ah, well, no – it travels for thousands of miles.
http://204.38.191.104/robinson/9cl1.htm
“Sequential water vapor images viewed in rapid succession to detect motion show water vapor transported horizontally as huge swirling plumes, often originating in the tropics and moving into higher latitudes.”
So if your “region” in the computer model had the wrong amount of water vapor, it will infect adjacent regions sooner rather than later due to this phenomenon called “wind”. What will the water vapour do in those adjacent regions? Well, amplify the greenhouse effect of course.
Still thinking your wrong regional forecast has no global implications?
Oh BTW, the water vapour feedback is guesswork anyhow:
“Given the complexity of processes controlling tropical humidity, however, simple convincing physical arguments about changes under global-scale warming are difficult to sustain, and a combination of modelling and observational studies are needed to assess the reliability of model water vapour feedback.”
http://www.ipcc.ch/publications_and_data/ar4/wg1/en/ch8s8-6-3-1.html

Gail Combs
November 5, 2011 7:00 pm

Douglas DC says:
November 5, 2011 at 12:47 pm
I got whacked by a warmist on another site when I mentioned that the warming has stopped,
referred them to our Jedi master of the X-Y axis and data compilation-Bob. When told about
Mr. Tisdale, the Warmist said: “I don’t listen to Deniers or use their websites!!”
In other words-both ears plugged eyes shut and go:”Lalalalalala…”
__________________________________
AHHhhhh but we Climate realists will have the ultimate revenge. WE got snow chains/snow tires for our vehicles, extra wood/oil for heating , extra blankets… WE will plant our gardens a bit later paying attention to possible frost beyond the normal time….
Sooner or later reality will bite them and if they are lucky it will teach them not kill them.

November 5, 2011 7:47 pm

Okay, so the model hindcast rises too fast. Assuming they are not incompetent, all they had to do was rerun the model with less sensitivity to CO2, right? After all, if, as we have been endlessly told, warming can’t be explained by the models without assuming a high CO2 sensitivity, then if the model predicts too much of it, the CO2 sensitivity must be set too high. Dial it back to a sane value and see what happens, eh? Or have they already tried that and the model still doesn’t fit at any CO2 sensitivity? In that case the model is useless. And since the models are all they have for their theory, either way the theory is rubbish.

G. Karst
November 5, 2011 8:11 pm

Ryan Welch says:
November 5, 2011 at 3:37 pm
…But now it appears that the hindcasts were not that accurate in the first place. So, I am now even more skeptical than before. It seems that instead of scientists making honest mistakes due to a lack of information that we may have magicians performing magic tricks to fool the masses…

Funny how reading Bob Tisdale’s postings… has this effect! There should be a warning, at the top of the page or something. 🙂 GK

davidmhoffer
November 5, 2011 8:30 pm

R. Gates;
In addition to my challenge above:
“OK R. Gates, I’ll bite. Can you point to any models, or any claims by any modelers, that made any such claim BEFORE the current warming hiatus began?”
Might I remind you also that you welched on our bet? On the flimsiest of excuses? You must be pretty much sick and tired of me pointing out it in every thread I can, thinking that if you ignore me long enough, I’ll eventually give up and forget about it. If so, you are ignoring two well known facts:
1. I’m a jerk.
2. I’m a PERSISTANT jerk.
But back to this thread… Can you quote a single model or someone from the modelling community that claimed that the models would show periods of no warming that were made BEFORE the warming stalled? Did Trenberth predict such a thing woulld happen? Mann? Jones? Hansen? Is it in any of the IPCC reports? AR1? AR2? 3? 4? Is there a single prediction from ANYONE supporting the CAGW meme that predicted ANY such thing? Is there output from ANY model that suggested this was possible BEFORE it actually happened?
If you can’t produce evidence that the models andf the modelers made any such claim before they were confronted with the facts that no warming was happening for the last 10+ years, will you retract your statement to the contrary made upthread?

davidmhoffer
November 5, 2011 9:19 pm

R. Gates;
I’ll save you the hunting through IPCC AR4 WG1 looking for anything to support your claim. Here’s the money quote summarizing ALL the models that the IPCC used. Not a word about warming taking a hiatus, in fact, the exact opposite:
All models assessed here, for all the non-mitigation scenarios considered, project increases in global mean surface air temperature (SAT) continuing over the 21st century, driven mainly by increases in anthropogenic greenhouse gas concentrations, with the warming proportional to the associated radiative forcing. There is close agreement of globally averaged SAT multi-model mean warming for the early 21st century for concentrations derived from the three non-mitigated IPCC Special Report on Emission Scenarios (SRES: B1, A1B and A2) scenarios (including only anthropogenic forcing) run by the AOGCMs (warming averaged for 2011 to 2030 compared to 1980 to 1999 is between +0.64°C and +0.69°C, with a range of only 0.05°C). Thus, this warming rate is affected little by different scenario assumptions or different model sensitivities, and is consistent with that observed for the past few decades (see Chapter 3). Possible future variations in natural forcings (e.g., a large volcanic eruption) could change those values somewhat, but about half of the early 21st-century warming is committed in the sense that it would occur even if atmospheric concentrations were held fixed at year 2000 values.

R. Gates
November 5, 2011 10:38 pm

Davidmhoffer,
You are rather full of yourself aren’t you! The idea that aerosols, and specifically human created aerosols could mask the effects of global warming from anthropogenic greenhouse gases has been modeled and studied long before the recent plateau in global temperatures. The study cited below, which puts the time frame at equal to or greater than 20 years during which time the warming could be hidden by aersol cooling came out in 1995, well before the recent plateau began. Furthermore, this study specifically did not include solar and volcanic effects, which it notes could mask this signal for even longer periods when combined with anthopogenic aerosols:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/vml28620367lw244/fulltext.pdf
This is a long and very maths intensive article but a great treasure to anyone caring to see that the notion of aerosols masking thevanthropogenic warming signal is hardly a recent occurrence to climate modeling.

JPeden
November 5, 2011 11:07 pm

Ryan Welch says:
November 5, 2011 at 3:37 pm
I had always thought that the climate computer models were run with temperature data points until the hindcasts fit the temperature record, and then they would be run into the future, and the climate predictions made from that projection. Why did I think this? Well because I believed the scientists when they said it.
Even though the Climate Scientists did claim and even tout the alleged fact that the GCM’s couldn’t explain/postdict the temp. record without CO2 as the major driver, I didn’t “believe” that’s the way the Climate Scientists did it, that is, by fitting the hypothesis to the record. I simply took their claim as a given and that they had fitted the hypothesis to the data, but which then falsifies their CO2 = GW hypothesis, because none of the relevant GCM predictions have been correct here in the empirical world of reality. Their CO2 = GW hypothesis is false, and they’ve proven it themselves.
But it turns out that according to the “method” of Climate Science, CO2 = CAGW does not have any hypotheses whatsoever, because regardless of their appearance as hypotheses, the Climate Scientists simply won’t let them be falsified. Likewise, in being “consistent with” everything that happens, they state nothing of an empirical or factual nature. They’re as factual or as “consistent with” reality as singing a song, or not singing a song, is, etc..
So they’re not going to be upset by the fact that the “hypotheses” built into the GCM’s can’t hindcast, either.

November 5, 2011 11:55 pm

david. Models runs for Ar4 show negative trends
do not confuse the mean with what we see in the runs
The earth is one run.
when you look at all the runs of a model you’ll find pauses, dips,
http://rankexploits.com/musings/2009/year-end-trend-comparison-individual-model-runs-2001-2008/

November 5, 2011 11:59 pm

David
Is there output from ANY model that suggested this was possible BEFORE it actually happened?
See Lucia chart. Yes, negative trends were predicted by a minority of models.
perhaps you should download data before you go off

November 6, 2011 12:02 am

Dirk. line up behind david and get some data. its free

Philip Bradley
November 6, 2011 2:14 am

‘As I’ve explained many times in the past the models will probably never get the timing of natural cycles correct. Trenberth is correct
I think what Trenbeth means is that the model’s simulation of natural processes don’t result in cycles that correspond with natural cycles. Hardly surprising given our limited understanding of the physical processes that underlie ENSO, etc.
Which means that any predictions the models make are excluding natural cycles. Which is fair enough.
It should be easy enough to combine model forecasts (ex cycles) with known empirical data about cycles to get predictions over shorter timescales.
The problem I see is the modellers are hiding behind ‘we can’t model cycles’ to stretch out the period over which the model predictions can be validated (or otherwise) to decades.
In any other other field of science, methods would be devised to test predictions as soon as possible. This is what (real) science does.
Climate science appears to doing its damnedest to delay the testing of its predictions as long as possible.

Editor
November 6, 2011 2:41 am

Kev-in-Uk says: “Do any models you know of, use a pre-set underlying temperature base/trend that accounts for the post glacial natural temperature recovery?”
I don’t really research paleoclimatology so I can’t point you to any papers. But I would assume there have been studies done to prove one point or another coming out of the last ice age. I can recall glancing at papers where the models simulated specific climate phenomenon for hundreds of thousands of years.

Don K
November 6, 2011 4:28 am

R Gates
You are rather full of yourself aren’t you! The idea that aerosols, and specifically human created aerosols could mask the effects of global warming from anthropogenic greenhouse gases has been modeled and studied long before the recent plateau in global temperatures.
=======
The idea goes back further than that. It was a key part of the Nuclear Winter theory in the 1980s. Nuclear Winter predicts catastrophic global cooling from aerosols following a significant nuclear exchange. Like GCMs, it consisted of a lot of unvalidated theory. NW crashed and burned in the early 1990s when it was used to spectacularly mis-estimate the effect of Kuwaiti oil well fires. There’s probably a lesson there about why it is advisable to test models against the available data before going public.

Toby Kelsey
November 6, 2011 5:17 am

A fascinating insight into modern climate astrology, I predict this post will be treasured by future historians of 21st Century pseudoscience. Is scientific and statistical literacy really so low that this sort of non-science is acceptable in Western academia?

davidmhoffer
November 6, 2011 5:20 am

R. Gates;
The study cited below, which puts the time frame at equal to or greater than 20 years during which time the warming could be hidden by aersol cooling came out in 1995, well before the recent plateau began. >>>
Read it. That’s now what it says. The paper is about extracting the CO2 warming signal with and without considering the effects of aerosols. No where in the paper did it claim that there would be periods during which warming would take a hiatus.

davidmhoffer
November 6, 2011 5:40 am

steven mosher says:
November 5, 2011 at 11:59 pm
David
Is there output from ANY model that suggested this was possible BEFORE it actually happened?
See Lucia chart. Yes, negative trends were predicted by a minority of models.
perhaps you should download data before you go off>>>
Perhaps you could provide a link? Further, R. Gates claim was that the models (sweeping generalization) predicted a warming hiatus which is bunk. I have no doubt that SOMEWHERE out there SOMEONE has made a climate model that does. Per your words, a “minority” of models. Well that’s certainly not a sweeping generalization, is it? Are any of them used in IPCC AR4? Are any of them ones R. Gates is referrring to? Clearly not because when challenged to show a model that predicted a cooling phase, he produced a link to a paper that showed sulfate aerosol emissions were a bigger factor than previously supposed, but no where in the paper did it predict that we would see warming taking a hiatus.
Further, it was a question to R. Gates, not to you. He made a claim and I challenged him to substantiate his claim. As usual, he could not. Take his side if you wish, but suggesting I should download data before I go off? Hardly. I’ve looked at dozens of papers based on models not a single one of which predicted the warming would take a hiatus. If there’s one I am unaware of (or even several) I’m happy to read it.
My apologies for not having sufficient time on my hands to read the entire internet in search of obscure models that certainly haven’t been part of the mainstream discussion.

davidmhoffer
November 6, 2011 5:47 am

Don K;
NW crashed and burned in the early 1990s when it was used to spectacularly mis-estimate the effect of Kuwaiti oil well fires.>>
Researchers trying to predict the effects of nucleart war started talking about Nuclear Summer before that if memory serves me well (and it frequently doesn’t). But those were studies about the effects of a one time event (nuclear war) over the long term. Climate studies predicting the long term effects of CO2 bear no resemblance as the “forcing” is constant, continuous, and increasing over the long haul.

Dave Springer
November 6, 2011 6:15 am

Get rid of the animations. Seriously, lose them. The data I wanted to see didn’t stay on the screen long enough for me to get a handle on it. There are also FAR too many charts. I’m sure there’s something of great interest here but the presentation sucks so bad I can’t find it.
REPLY: Well then look away and don’t badger the man. I think it is just fine, Pielke Sr. concurs. – Anthony

R. Gates
November 6, 2011 6:18 am

Don K, thanks for reconfirming what I was telling davidmhoffer.
Here, by the way, is an interesting article by Dr. Trenberth written quite a while back about models in general and how they should and should not be used. Very informative and still relevant:
http://www.cgd.ucar.edu/cas/Trenberth/trenberth.papers/T_Nature1997.pdf

Dave Springer
November 6, 2011 6:27 am

steven mosher says:
November 5, 2011 at 11:55 pm

david. Models runs for Ar4 show negative trends
do not confuse the mean with what we see in the runs
The earth is one run.
when you look at all the runs of a model you’ll find pauses, dips,

The earth is “one run”? Really?
I think you’ve lost the ability, if you ever had it, to discriminate between reality and fantasy.
Seriously Mosher, you aren’t playing with a full deck.

Dave Springer
November 6, 2011 6:34 am

steven mosher says:
November 6, 2011 at 12:02 am
“Dirk. line up behind david and get some data. its free”
Is your shift key not working? Chemical impairment? Having some sort of “episode”?
Whatever it is, in case you don’t know, something isn’t right.

Dave Springer
November 6, 2011 6:48 am

@Mosher
What’s up with the link to Veteran’s Freedom Farm? Being a US Marine Corps veteran myself it piqued my interest and I checked it out. When I saw it is located in San Francisco I thought I might immediately offer some helpful advice for any veterans in that city. Get the f*ck out of San Francisco by the most expedient means at your disposal. That city is not veteran friendly. They hate you there. They might smile and say they don’t but that’s merely a politically correct mask. Be advised they despise you and everything you stand for and that is not an environment conducive to your mental and physical well-being.

Douglas Leahey
November 6, 2011 7:23 am

Do the many skeptics who comment on the validity of General Circulation Models (GCMs) have an understanding of their fundamental assumptions? They tend to focus on secondary matters such as feedback mechanisms when the models’ most basic assumptions are beyond the realm of acceptance.
The dynamical equations contained in these complex “sophisticated” models are derived by applying Newton’s second law to a single parcel of air which is assumed never to mix with the atmosphere. Once the equations are derived they are mysteriously “transformed” from a Lagrangian to an Eulerian frame of reference. Such a transformation allows the equations to be treated as though they have general applicability to all diffusive atmospheric conditions. This is contrary to the assumption of no parcel entrainment contained in their derivation. The models should be rejected out-of hand.
Simple Scientist