Guest post by William McClenney
This piece is advisory in nature to the many state Attorneys General, Eric Holder and any attorneys that may be involved in joining any of the many suits brought under the Public Trust doctrine beginning in May 2011 through the filings engendered by way of “Our Children’s Trust” (http://www.ourchildrenstrust.org/legal-action/lawsuits).
It remains unknown at this point in time if any of these many suits will be successful, but as it is a shotgun pattern, just one would set a legal precedent. For this reason I thought I would take a moment to do one of the things I do best, technical litigation support. In this case invention of an argument from whole technical cloth, which, if used adeptly, has the potential to be a gamechanger.
The entire concept hinges upon the definition of just what the public trust is. We can rest assured that the plaintiffs have given this matter quite a bit of thought given the litigation history surrounding the use of the public trust doctrine and how it could now be applied to air instead of water and land, it’s traditional application.
So the argument to be progressed here applies to the defense.
We will first build the appropriate question from which can be evolved a fairly strong argument that nimbly avoids getting into the normal “carbon weeds” type of defense:
- What is the public trust?
- What is the public trust climate?
- What is the public trust climate at an end extreme interglacial?
Some of you will instantly recognize where I am going with this as bits and pieces were delivered in my first two essays here. We will be utilizing the simple to understand principle of signal to noise. And you may even recognize some of the quotations as their ultimate relevance may have just come into fine focus right here.
Because we are going to use this to define the Public Trust – Climate. I think of this as the “Big Bang Theory” as opposed to the “Steady State” one it replaced.
Crucial is the understanding that the public trust in this case may be stated as an “affirmative duty to protect and preserve the atmospheric trust”. Any such definition immediately runs afoul of just what constitutes the Public Trust Climate such that its domain may be preserved and protected.
As this derivation is intended primarily for attorneys, the prose will not be so scientifically rigorous however I will be including some choice literature quotations in the spirit of driving the point’s home at the appropriate cusps.
We all live today near what may very well be the end Holocene, the third interglacial considered an extreme interglacial in the literature. Although there are different ways to define an “extreme interglacial”, we will use an oversimplification, it is an interglacial in which either temps or sea levels have at least been found to equal or exceed our own.
It is best that we establish the whole framework for the ensuing discussion with a direct quote from the scientific literature. I have highlighted the relevant bits for the impatient, but I strongly recommend reading this until you understand it. From the conclusions:
“Various lines of scientific evidence over the last decade have led to the conclusion that the last million years of the Quaternary may be viewed as consisting of two disparate halves. The early portion (1.0–0.5 Ma) was a quiescent, stable period when fluctuating sealevels were always below that of the present and this period is marked in many places by massive soil development. This was followed by a turbulent later half (0.5 Ma to present) in which the amplitude of sea-level fluctuations was much greater, resulting in several major interglacial flooding events. The point of transition is MIS 11, which has long been recognized as one of the longer and warmer Quaternary interglacial episodes (Howard, 1997; Droxler and Farrell, 2000; McManus et al., 2003; EPICA, 2004).
“As we have established here and elsewhere, the MIS 11 highstand was in excess of 20 m, making this perhaps the single most important global event of the past million years, and all the more so for its potential heuristic predictive value as being the interglacial most similar to the present interglacial now in progress in terms of Milankovitchian forcing (Loutre and Berger, 2003). It thus becomes essential that the full extent and duration of the MIS 11 event be more widely recognized and acknowledged.”
From Olson and Hearty, 2009, “A sustained +21 m sea-level highstand during MIS 11 (400 ka): Direct fossil and sedimentary evidence from Bermuda”, Quaternary Science Reviews, Volume 28, Issues 3-4, February 2009, Pages 271-285.
This is the most compact text I have found to lay the foundation of “when we live”, the wide-angle lens of just the past million years of which only the last “turbulent half” is relevant to the Public Trust Climate. Allow me to set the stage.
About 2.8 million years ago, as the earth continued to cool down, the first “modern” northern hemisphere glaciations began to occur. We began to experience glacials (ice ages) and interglacials or warm times, such as the most recent one, the Holocene, the one in which all of human civilization has occurred. Ice ages and interglacials occurred in couples every 41,000 years, which matches the obliquity in our orbit around the sun (the wobble on our rotational tilt axis). During the period between 1 million years and 800,000 years ago we transitioned into a 100,000 year ice age/interglacial couple, which matches the eccentricity in our orbit about the sun (as close as it gets to a circle now but cycling towards an ellipse and back to near circular every 100,000 years). But the eccentricity itself varies, a cycle on top of a cycle, such that in two cycles from now (200kyrs) we will achieve the maximum ellipse or eccentricity (a maxima), and in two cycles from then, we will experience near circular conditions like now (a minima).
This is important. Olson and Hearty above refer to MIS-11, technospeak for the Holsteinian interglacial. The latter half of the Holsteinian is considered by many to represent the closest analog to our interglacial. I say the latter half because The Holsteinian appears unique in the last million years of climate in that it may have lasted something like 30,000 years, or 1.5 to 2 precession cycles. Precession is the third orbital variable that paces climate. Five of the last six interglacials have each lasted roughly one half of a precession cycle. The precession cycle itself varies between 19,000 and 23,000 years, and we are presently at the 23,000 year part of the cycle, making the current age of the Holocene exactly half…….
Is the Holocene interglacial, our interglacial, just about kaput? Well, that’s the trillion dollar question, isn’t it? I went deep into the science on this in “The Antithesis”, you may refresh or intimate yourself with the poignant literature there. The present consensus seems to be that we will not have an extended interglacial this time, even though we are also at an eccentricity minima, just like the Holsteinian was 400kyrs ago. All things considered, our interglacial seems to match best the last half of the Holsteinian, the bit where we fall off into an ice age.
If we use the simple definition provided above for an extreme interglacial, then we are the third of three. The other two being the Holsteinian and the Eemian (MIS-5e).
The ends of those two may very well define the Public Trust Climate today. In
other words, the defense.
A recent definition of the timespan involved for the Holsteinian is 428kyrs ago to 397kya. From Olson and Hearty (2009) above we have:
“Four TIMS U/Th ages on flowstone directly overlying (at millimetric scale) beach deposits at +21 m in Dead End Caves yield a weighted mean of 399 ±11 ka (Hearty and Olson, 2008), confirming a correlation
with MIS 11.”
A sea level highstand of +21.3 meters, at least, was achieved right about the very end of the Holsteinian, the very first of the extreme interglaciations! We have our first benchmark of Public Trust Climate. This can happen anyway, whether by carbon or not. And if by carbon, what was the source at the end Holsteinian? What could one do about that if it was carbon, obviously natural carbon?
And it happened again, right at the very end of the second extreme interglacial, the Eemian.
So, in continuing our construction of what might reasonably constitute the “public trust climate” at an end extreme interglacial, we will look to Hearty again, this time as Hearty and Neumann (Quaternary Science Reviews 20 [2001] 1881–1895):
“The geology of the Last Interglaciation (sensu stricto, marine isotope substage (MIS) 5e) in the Bahamas records the nature of sea level and climate change. After a period of quasi-stability for most of the interglaciation, during which reefs grew to +2.5 m, sea level rose rapidly at the end of the period, incising notches in older limestone. After brief stillstands at +6 and perhaps +8.5 m, sea level fell with apparent speed to the MIS 5d lowstand and much cooler climatic conditions. It was during this regression from the MIS 5e highstand that the North Atlantic suffered an oceanographic ‘‘reorganization’’ about 11873 ka ago. During this same interval, massive dune-building greatly enlarged the Bahama Islands. Giant waves reshaped exposed lowlands into chevron-shaped beach ridges, ran up on older coastal ridges, and also broke off and threw megaboulders onto and over 20 m-high cliffs. The oolitic rocks recording these features yield concordant whole-rock amino acid ratios across the archipelago. Whether or not the Last Interglaciation serves as an appropriate analog for our ‘‘greenhouse’’ world, it nonetheless reveals the intricate details of climatic transitions between warm interglaciations and near glacial conditions.”
Boettger, et al (Quaternary International 207 [2009] 137–144) abstract it:
“In terrestrial records from Central and Eastern Europe the end of the Last Interglacial seems to be characterized by evident climatic and environmental instabilities recorded by geochemical and vegetation indicators. The transition (MIS 5e/5d) from the Last Interglacial (Eemian, Mikulino) to the Early Last Glacial (Early Weichselian, Early Valdai) is marked by at least two warming events as observed in geochemical data on the lake sediment profiles of Central (Gro¨bern, Neumark–Nord, Klinge) and of Eastern Europe (Ples). Results of palynological studies of all these sequences indicate simultaneously a strong increase of environmental oscillations during the very end of the Last Interglacial and the beginning of the Last Glaciation. This paper discusses possible correlations of these events between regions in Central and Eastern Europe. The pronounced climate and environment instability during the interglacial/glacial transition could be consistent with the assumption that it is about a natural phenomenon, characteristic for transitional stages. Taking into consideration that currently observed ‘‘human-induced’’ global warming coincides with the natural trend to cooling, the study of such transitional stages is important for understanding the underlying processes of the climate changes.”
So there we have it, end extreme interglacial climate noise laid out for us. Could this be the Pax Climatica of the plaintiffs? Or would this “Pax” be better described as “The pronounced climate and environment instability during the interglacial/glacial transition could be consistent with the assumption that it is about a natural phenomenon, characteristic for transitional stages.” The Holsteinian is four interglacials back, so not must has withstood these erasures, but the Eemian is the most recent interglacial, and we know it far better. In fact Greenland ice cores do not quite make it to the beginning of the Eemian before encountering massive shearing and then bedrock. You know what that means don’t you? The Greenland ice cap may very well have melted away during the early Eemian…….
But even so, the end of the last extreme interglacial was quite the wild climate ride! Two major migrations of plant species, documenting two thermal excursions in Europe, the second one giving rise, literally to a sea level highstand 10 times the IPCC 2007 AR4 worst case estimate of 0.59 meters anthropogenic. And that is if we use just the lower-end estimate of +6 meters for the second thermal pulse.
The basis for establishment of reasonable doubt………
But the Public Trust Climate might be worse than we thought. If we stick with Hearty (Quaternary Science Reviews 26 [2007] 2090–2112) we come of the second order noise, anthropogenic interpretation noise:
A global aggregation of Eemian sea levels from 12 studies. The range is roughly +4 to +40 meters for the end-Eemian highstand. There’s a fair bit of litigative mileage to be had by the appropriately acquisitive attorney.
Follow this logic. From THE PUBLIC TRUST DOCTRINE IN NATURAL RESOURCE LAW: EFFECTIVE JUDICIAL INTERVENTION, Joseph L. Sax (1970) we have the following:
“Three types of restrictions on governmental authority are often thought to be imposed by the public trust: first, the property subject to the trust must not only be used for a public purpose, but it must be held available for use by the general public; second, the property may not be sold, even for a fair cash equivalent; and third, the property must be maintained for particular types of uses. The last claim is expressed in two ways. Either it is urged that the resource must be held available for certain traditional uses, such as navigation, recreation, or fishery, or it is said that the uses which are made of the property must be in some sense related to the natural uses peculiar to that resource.”
Allow me to interpret all of this from the perspective of establishing the “Public Trust Climate” at end extreme interglacials:
-
In terms of Pleistocene climate, the Holsteinian establishes the beginning of the “turbulent later half (0.5 Ma to present) in which the amplitude of sea-level fluctuations was much greater, resulting in several major interglacial flooding events.” Meaning that MIS-11, spanning the period from about 428kya to 397kya, was the first extreme interglacial. The latter half of MIS-11 is considered to be the better analogue to the present interglacial in terms of orbital dynamics.
-
At 399 ± 11ka, the +21.3 meter lagoonal deposits suggest that the grand highstand also occurred very close to the end of the first extreme interglacial, just as it did at the end of the next extreme interglacial, MIS-5e, the Eemian.
-
This establishes that 2 out of the 3 late Pleistocene extreme interglacials suffered their grand highstands just as they were ending, and the third, ours, the Holocene, is at its probable end right now.
This presents a rather wide envelope of natural climate noise as the “public trust climate” at the end extreme interglacials as this would appear to represent the “…natural uses peculiar to that resource.”
There are actually two arguments in favor of the defense to be exploited here. The first is the aforesaid redefinition of the “Public Trust Climate” with respect to its rather wide range of climate noise at the end extreme interglacials from which we must somehow discern the anthropogenic signal as distinct in order to assess what, if any, harm has been done. And second, there is the problem of academic paleoclimate noise, which can be re-stated that even on things which actually have happened, the science is not that particularly well settled, which makes consideration of the science being settled on things which have not yet happened a bit unsettling at best.
In other words two distinct caches of reasonable doubt………
And you don’t even have to get anywhere near the “carbon weeds”………….
William
Volker Doormann:
The need to speak with attorneys on the Public Trust Climate began in May of this year with the filings of the public trust suits, of which there are many. As another stated above, we can rest assured that IPCC luminaries and Nobel laureates will be put on the stand and the court will here things like “if we assume that the mode number 1 (n=1) is related to a time of 377.134 ky, then other modes of n=1.5 has……” which is where my eyes glazed over. You may have a point or points, but the same thing happened to me as happened to you. You lost me.
The argument I presented is an attempt to give attorneys a much simpler, though still necessarily scientific, defense posture based on things recognizable with basic common sense.
Think of this as “I see your 2007 IPCC AR4 worst case scenario of +0.59 meters and I raise you one Hearty and Newmann natural +6 meters, put that in your pipe and smoke it” defense. Of course, in my pile of chips I have studies with highstands not only up to +40 at the end Eemian, but one that went as high as +52 meters! So I can stay at the poker table with you for a while, even back to the Holsteinian. If you want to win against this defense you have to both up your game and deal with the natural variation peculiar to the Public Climate Trust at an end interglacial.
Here’s the sort of thing a good attorney might gin up to make things blatantly clear to the court:
“So, let’s assume for the moment, that we do implement whatever is necessary to bring CO2 levels to the prescribed 350 ppm. For the purposes of discussion we will even say we are certain this prevented the AR4’s worst case scenario of +0.59 meters by 2100. While we are celebrating our success in 2125, with non-carbonated champagne of course, sea levels suddenly shoot up +6 or +21.3 meters anyway. Really, your honor, isn’t this just a silly bugger’s game?”
And it’s an uphill battle from there because the public trust climate bar has just been set where it should be, encompassing when we live, at the latest end extreme interglacial. Where literally anything and everything climate does indeed occur (shark jumping sea level excursions and an ice age lurking at the end).
If you are going to prove harm against the public trust climate, then it must either be defined as steady state, and the predicted effects obviously a problem, or you must confront nature itself, in all it’s apparent furies at an end extreme interglacial. I was communicating to the attorneys just how easy that would be. Simple, easy to understand, and communicate, signal to noise ratio.
William McClenney says:
October 23, 2011 at 12:47 pm
But as we get into the messier, less well preserved detail packages that still remain around the world (not erased by the next and the next interglacial) the pixels begin to populate the big picture. And change it.
If that is true, no single formula will describe the Grand Detail, but the minutiae might drive the large-scale formula.
Something else in nature comes to mind: When a river floods, and transports rocks, it does not always pick up the load all the way to the bottom, but may cause it to roll along anyway at a relatively reduced speed.
In this latter case, the strength of the grand scheme may alter the minutiae by changing the strata upon which it has to operate..
More or less dependent on the magnitude.
@roger Sowell, October 22, 2011 at 4:50 pm to Rasey
Mr, Sowell, your reply to me was completely off the point. The key sentence in your replay was
But you negleted to address the terms of the Public Trust Doctrine. The point of the parent essay by McClenny is that the Public Trust Doctrine boils down to
Do you significantly disagree with any part of that summary? Personally, I think the Doctrine is far too inflexible and presumptuous, but I’m just a voter. If you disagree, this is an issue between Bar members.
McClenny’s point is that a natural use of a resource includes a higher sea-level than today, but a sea-level that is repeatedly seen in the geologic record. As a Trustee, would it be more right or more wrong to prevent a periodic natural rise in sea-level to return Florida once again to a living reef as it has been in the past?
Ferd Berple says:
Motive – $$
Means – Pal Reviewed Science
Opportunity – IPCC
Brilliant – ‘climate science’ in a nutshell.
William McClenney says:
October 23, 2011 at 1:59 pm
Volker Doormann:
The need to speak with attorneys on the Public Trust Climate began in May of this year with the filings of the public trust suits, of which there are many. As another stated above, we can rest assured that IPCC luminaries and Nobel laureates will be put on the stand and the court will here things like “if we assume that the mode number 1 (n=1) is related to a time of 377.134 ky, then other modes of n=1.5 has……” which is where my eyes glazed over. You may have a point or points, but the same thing happened to me as happened to you. You lost me.
The argument I presented is an attempt to give attorneys a much simpler, though still necessarily scientific, defense posture based on things recognizable with basic common sense.”
Hi William,
it may be that in the end we both – and some more people – are agree on something what is recognizable as truth. But I think different about the necessary level of communication.
The problem which has been established in the social community is that the object science is occupied by people who are interested in magic to deceive the crowd taking the good name science have. With that science and scientists have become slaves of the social community and its speakers from politics, magazines, publishers, Nobel committee, bloggers, governments, TV punches, school teachers, and world concerns with its media wars.
The simple point is that all this is not science. Science is alike philosophy something of esoteric nature, not to be thought for the crowd or attorneys. In science ever it is a good job to argue scientific arguments. Science never do argue on what is not, and do never create sayings without valid arguments, because only with this method there is a way down to the basics of philosophy, logic and truth: Nothing can at the same time be true and untrue.
Indeed in the science community itself there are lacks on this method. This is an important point, because if science is confronted with a possible connection of terrestrial climate and the solar system as a system of angular momenta, with dimension of [V A s^2] (That is the identical dimension as the Planck constant h. A multiplication of the angular momentum of Jupiter and the frequency (Hz = 1/sec) of Jupiter (f = 2.67209 nHz), results in an energy! in [eV).
I do point this here, because it is well known that an angular momentum cannot be destroyed. If there are processes in the Earth/Moon system, which decrease the angular momentum from the Earth it will increase the angular momentum of the Moon. But no scientist ever has explained how, which carrier, how fast, angular momentum, but also gravition, is transferred. If science would like to understand in an easy way the interaction of celestial bodies for the terrestrial climate, these questions first have to answered by the science community.
I think there is no right of the social community on science, because science and research are free, and free means the freedom to perform. Logic and valid arguments are not owned by kings or the public crowd or consumers. Neither science nor scientist have to follow the morality of any social community, but each individual has the freedom to follow the method of science, because these method only exist in the consciousness of a living Being. It reminds me on that what Plato has told from Socrates. No one of the consumers is interested in seeing the light of the Sun; they are waiting that a servant put the Sun into the cave.
If attorneys are not able to follow science, than it is the problem of them, not the problem of science.
Truth do not need attorneys. Truth itself IS.
No One Can Govern the Sun
”No one can govern the sun
No sun takes orders from no one
No one can command you: Be free!
No one can command you: Be thee!
No one can tell you the truth
No one can get yourself loose
No one can govern the moon
No one can undo a tune
Be no ones master, be no ones slave
Sing songs of love and stay
Each tree grows without a king
No king gives planets their swing
Doing is moving a stone
Not doing lets you for your own
Masters can’t move stones alone
Slaves doing move many more stones
Love needs no master nor slave
Be love and be yourself brave
Be no ones master be no ones slave
Sing songs of love and stay”
Thanks for reading.
V.
This should include the missing paragraphs taken out of the IPCC report way back at the beginning of the big push to scam which was followed by the hockyschtick as the IPCC got totally in the grips of the scammers and real science ousted, the mosquito claims contrary to the mosquito expert and so on. The original conclusion was that there was no indication of human cause to global warming. After that the lies kept coming thick and fast and pal review made certain that dissenting science voices were excluded by lying that they were the consensus.
Hey McBill,
Your analysis leaves out the fact that those natural changes in orbitals also changed the CO2 levels, which added to the feedback mechanisms, which in turn influenced the climate and subsequent changes in sea level. So even if direct CO2 emissions from, say, volcanos, didn’t initiate the climate change, CO2 acts as a thermostat on what the climate becomes. So what you’re really demonstrating is just how powerful the link between orbitals and CO2 really is.
My speculative guess is that the immediate imposition of a 100% tax on energy consumption, collected at the point of production, could reduce overall energy consumption in this country to roughly 80% of current levels, possibly within two years or less.
LosAngelista says:
October 24, 2011 at 6:55 am
“which added feedback mechanisms, which in turn influenced the climate”
There is evidence for and against CO2 as a feedback mechanism so that at present it remains a hypothesis. It does not yet qualify as a fact.
I was hoping this would come up. From the opening of the Executive Summary (ISBN: 0-309-51284-0, 244 pages, 6×9, (2002), Abrupt Climate Change: Inevitable Surprises Committee on Abrupt Climate Change, National Research Council, Richard B. Alley, Chair):
“Recent scientific evidence shows that major and widespread climate changes have occurred with startling speed. For example, roughly half the north Atlantic warming since the last ice age was achieved in only a decade, and it was accompanied by significant climatic changes across most of the globe. Similar events, including local warmings as large as 16°C, occurred repeatedly during the slide into and climb out of the last ice age.”
There are no tephras (volcanic dust layers) populating any of the post-MPT ice age terminations. As provided in the quote above from Manfred Mudelsee CO2 excursions lag the termination temperature spikes by about 1.3 +/- 1ka, so no CO2 contribution to causation at the terminations. If we take the transition period from the Bolling-Allerod stadial to full interglacial conditions, we have to contend with at least 4 very rapid negative thermal excursions which occurred after both the initial termination and after the Bolling-Allerod: the Older and Younger Dryas stadials, the pre-Boreal cold snap and the “8.2k event”. And again, we see that CO2 concentrations responded but with distinct lags.
If CO2 is such a powerful climate agent, its post termination concentrations soaring (presumably due to ocean outgassing in response to warmer temps, how did these 4 abrupt strong cooling events even occur?
Methinks this may be a case of getting the cart before the horse.
Oops, sorry, meant to say the Bolling-Allerod interstadial.
Scott Brim says:
October 24, 2011 at 8:17 am
William McClenney says:
October 23, 2011 at 6:56 pm
More or less dependent on the magnitude.
My speculative guess is that the immediate imposition of a 100% tax on energy consumption, collected at the point of production, could reduce overall energy consumption in this country to roughly 80% of current levels, possibly within two years or less.
And the point of this would be what, exactly? That we should all be forced to “bump our heads?”
Precisely …. If the stated goal is to quickly reduce energy consumption — regardless of the substantial economic and social dislocations involved — what other approach would work?
William:
From your knowledge of geologic records, how fast can sea levels drop should the Interglacial decide to roll over and plunge down to colder climes?
Scott Brim:
I’m afraid you lost me Scott. I wasn’t previously aware that I had in any way suggested that I supported a “stated goal to quickly reduce energy consumption”. I presume this is your goal?
rbateman:
Well, in general, sea level falls at the end interglacials are generally slower than the ice age termination rises. But that is a very general statement. It really depends on (1) the detail of the particular record or study one might be looking at and (2) how far back one is looking. Finding much of anything related to MIS-7 and MIS-9 detail sea level studies is quite difficult as sea levels during MIS-5e were much higher, therefore a greater chance that (a) evidence may literally have been washed away by now or (b) still be under water because of present sea level.
So the best preserved one is MIS-5d, because we must go back to MIS-11, ~400,000 years ago to literally be able to “see” what might still be available after so long (probably ~100 D-O events and 3 intervening interglacials). From the previously cited Hearty et al 2007 we have this:
SLI#5—The end of MIS 5e is characterized by multiple
sharp rises of sea level around 121–119 ka. This interval
was characterised by upward shifts and halts of sea level
between +6 and +9m. One to three bioerosional
notches have been observed, along with rubble benches,
algal rims, and minimal coral growth at these elevations.
SLI#6—Sea level appears to have retreated rapidly
from the SLI#5 peak elevations between 120 and 118 ka,
marking the onset of MIS 5d. Rapid fall is supported by
the preservation of delicate coral heads and morphological
features formed earlier in the period (Neumann
and Hearty, 1996). A slow retreat of the sea would have
eroded and destroyed these features.
SLI stands for Sea Level Intervals.
As I thought was obvious, quickly reducing energy consumption is the litigant’s goal, not yours. I am merely pointing out that if the litigants truly want the kinds of quick reductions they are demanding, a direct and deliberately burdensome carbon tax is the only practical means of quickly achieving those reductions, short of a government-imposed program of mandatory and strictly-enforced energy rationing. If the litigants accept something less, this would be proof they are in it for the money, not for the supposed environmental benefits of their stated agenda.
Scott Brim says:
October 24, 2011 at 6:48 pm
Scott, my apologies. I was at a loss on where you were going. You raise an interesting point, one I may need to ponder a bit. We may need some legal help on this one. Any attorneys still checking in please feel to opine.
On initial consideration I think it might be how the case has been filed and will be argued in each jurisdiction. Again, we need some legal assistance here. Depending on whatever latitude exists within each possibly applicable judicial domain some sort of precedent might be set.
I am really not sure if that means all that much towards the money. It appears to be a chiseling strategy. Chisel whatever and however many toe-holds you judicially can and advance from there.
Just my initial thoughts.
Scott Brim says:
October 24, 2011 at 8:17 am
William McClenney says:
October 23, 2011 at 6:56 pm
More or less dependent on the magnitude.
My speculative guess is that the immediate imposition of a 100% tax on energy consumption, collected at the point of production, could reduce overall energy consumption in this country to roughly 80% of current levels, possibly within two years or less.
_____________________________________________
Well then Scott I sure hope you know how to ride a horse and drive a team of oxen!
If you reduce energy consumption to 20% of current levels what is that actually going to mean???
The U.S. energy use per person stands 335.9 million Btu. 20% of that is 45 million Btu.
Scrounging around the internet I found that at the beginning of the Industrial Revolution the U.S. in 1800 had a per-capita energy consumption of about 90 million. Renewable energy accounted for 14.3 percent of the domestically produced electricity in the United States in the first six months of 2011. That means we can all run a few light bulbs and maybe the refrigerator and that is about it.
So let us saw we scale back to the 1800’s energy use.
In 1830 about 250-300 labor-hours was required to produce 100 bushels (5 acres) of wheat with walking plow, brush harrow, hand broadcast of seed, sickle, and flail. It was not until the 1840’s that we saw a growing use of factory-made agricultural machinery.
HOWEVER factories are energy intensive and if you want to cut back to HALF the energy use of 1800 you can not have factories producing goods. Nor can you have commercially made chemical fertilizers (1849) Since in 1840 farmers made up 69% of labor force, you can expect that it will take the same number of people to produce food since you are back to using horses, mules and oxen and not tractors…. REMEMBER NO FACTORIES ALLOWED!
As I sad I sure hope you can drive a team. I can! I have GOT that team and the plow and the disc….
I must intercede Gail. Scott refined his query to a rather specific possibility, that the litigants might negate their claim in accepting something less than they are suing for. In the end game, all such questions should indeed be asked and discussed. We are looking into the veracity of a legal argument. There will be all sorts of fringes. Scott just alluded to one.
Gail, my sentence reads “to 80%” of current levels; i.e., the reduction totals 20%.
My speculative guess is that reducing the nation’s energy consumption by 20% over a period of two years to 80% of current levels would require a direct tax as high as 100% applied at the point of production, with no means of relief as would be employed in a revenue-neutral type of taxing approach.
However, even a total reduction of 20% over as short a period as two years would have very significant social and economic impacts — not unexpected given that the only way to reduce the nation’s energy consumption in that short a time frame would be to constrain the social and economic activity which drives that energy consumption.
What I am saying is this: if one doesn’t like the outcome of a particular economic or social activity — energy consumption in this case — the surest way to constrain that activity is to tax it directly and severely, targeting energy consumption itself as the fairest means of applying the tax.
Short of enforced rationing, I cannot see any other alternative approach that would actually achieve the litigant’s goals for reducing the nation’s energy consumption within the time frame they are apparently demanding.
Scott Brim said “I am merely pointing out that if the litigants truly want the kinds of quick reductions they are demanding, a direct and deliberately burdensome carbon tax is the only practical means of quickly achieving those reductions, short of a government-imposed program of mandatory and strictly-enforced energy rationing.”
Unfortunately this isn’t a legal remedy that the plaintiffs (the children) can obtain in these actions as of right, or one that they can ever realistically expect to achieve.
The children’s lawsuits are against, variously (a) selected (sovereign) states of the USA, (b) the heads (Secretaries or Administrators) of the EPA and the Departments of Interior, Agriculture, Commerce, Energy and Defense and (c) an action in the Kiev court by (don’t snigger please) the “international charitable organisation” Environment People Law against the Cabinet Ministers of Ukraine and two individual Ministries of the Ukraine government. (This is the government that has just sentenced its former prime minister Julia Tymoshenko to 7 years imprisonment under what the EU sees as “justice being applied selectively under political motivation” – so any outcome is possible including, probably, that the action by foreign plaintiffs against Ukrainian government officials will never actually see the light of day).
In the case of actions against the sovereign states of the USA, the best legal analysis I have seen to date is that of “wws” in the WUWT thread as follows: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/05/04/desperate-measures-indeed/#comment-653600
As will be seen, the Supreme Court’s ruling in AEP v Connecticut sets binding precedent – all the plaintiffs can ensure is that the EPA properly exercises its regulatory power, under the displacement doctrine. The same must apply to the actions against the Secretaries or Administrators of the executive Departments.
Only the US congress has power to impose a carbon tax, if congress has the political will to do so. These childrens’ suits can’t result in a carbon tax without that political will. And, similarly, only congress has power to impose “mandatory and strictly-enforced energy rationing”, by law.
I agree with wws that these childrens’ suits are just a worthless (adults’) stunt, solely aimed at attracting publicity.
TimC, yes, as you say, it is difficult to see how a direct and highly burdensome carbon tax, or else a program of enforced energy rationing, could possibly be imposed at any governmental level except at the national level by an act of the US Congress.
Nevertheless, a direct and highly burdensome carbon tax is the only pathway that could achieve the litigant’s energy consumption reduction goals in the time frame they are demanding.
If they have any intelligence at all, the litigants must understand that reality just as well as anyone else does, which of course makes their true motivations highly suspect.