“Experiment” on the US power grid will change the way some clocks and other equipment function.
Story submitted by Joe Ryan
The AP has released an “exclusive” story concerning the nationwide “experiment” that will be conducted on the US power grid. The experiment will relieve the power providers from the duty of regulating the frequency of power on the line.
Normally the power stations condition their power to a frequency of 60 cycles a second, a frequency that many old clocks use to maintain their time. With the new standard, or lack of standard, these clocks will stop keeping time properly.
But the problem is more than that.
First, we have this gem from Joe McLelland who heads the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (from AP article):
“Is anyone using the grid to keep track of time?” McClelland said. “Let’s see if anyone complains if we eliminate it.”
… forgive me for not getting warm fuzzies from this. Likewise, Demetrios Matsakis, head of the time service department at the U.S. Naval Observatory, had this to say (AP Article again):
“A lot of people are going to have things break and they’re not going to know why,”
So, we have what appears to be an untested, for the hell of it, “experimental” major change to the US electrical grid coming in a few weeks and those in charge aren’t really sure how it will work or if it may break something?
Not only is this what a LAB is for, but it is also something that the Federal Government should be TELLING people about in advance, and not in an AP “exclusive” press release.
Ok folks, here is my take..
If you wish to continue being Americans, and I suspect many of you do not care anymore, wake up, and more importantly, act up. Our country is being destroyed by insane government/corporate decisions. The talking should be done, as anyone with two cells left in their head can see the direction, that talk has got us. We must act, for the sake of our country, our children, and our Constitution. You all remember what that is right? Sitting behind our computers talking about this is right where they want us, controlled. Act you slugs, damn you, act. A decision to not represent us has been made, and its implementation is apparent, so why are we still talking. Personally I would rather die standing for something, than to stand for nothing. If you ever realize that we all feel the same, watching this happen, and will help each other to destroy those who seek to do the snake to us, we would have a revolution going on. You say making the same mistake twice, and expecting different results is insanity, but what is this forum posting but a platform to air you complaints, while refusing to act. I suspect it’s a why partially it was created, as I see other people of the world with much more intestinal fortitude, than most Americans. Today is the day I go offline for good, no more talk, its all that’s being done. It’s time for action, as to wait means to accept slavery, and as a Marine I cannot. I am mad as hell, and not taking it anymore…please join the revolution, and reclaim your humanity, for your children’s sake, I hope to see you there. Semper Fi…..
Richard, as others pointed out the grid can go down to 57Hz before major equipment malfunction which is why it trips out at about 58Hz. This is about a 3% change. Obviously the utility company won’t be going outside of the 3% range, not unless they feel like purchasing new generators. In addition the article stated that a clock could be off by 20 minutes in a day (one of the few facts in this article) which implies an average of 59.17Hz assuming that the aforementioned clock is running slow.
The end point of discussion here is whether or not major equipment and/or consumer-owned devices will be affected. As other people have pointed out, frequency variations already happen, especially under heavy load. In the past it was a requirement to make up the lost cycles (or to lose some cycles, depending on whether you were under- or over-frequency). You’ve never noticed it before, have you? Because frequency changes do happen on the grid, engineers designing things which draw power from it must take this into account, hence the reason your vacuum cleaner has never blown up.
For the dude who was freaking out about VFDs, you can calm down now. VFDs are frequency independent as they use a PWM circuit to create the power which is actually provided to the drive itself. At worst a lower frequency would mean that some extra noise gets past the filters. The input power gets changed to DC (a frequency of zero) then the PWM circuit creates whatever is needed to push the drive. For a full explanation of why the input frequency matters very little for a VFD, try Googling “how does a variable frequency drive work” and looking at the first website that pops up, the second page has a circuit schematic which shows the rectifier and the power transistors in the inverter.
Oh, and to the one guy who did the typical foaming-at-the-mouth rant about how the world is going to end – my guess is that the PID controller you are referring to is actually a microcontroller which is programmed with the parameters of the PID. Microcontrollers have their own crystal clock which is powered using DC, in other words, they will be one of the few things which is wholly unaffected by this change.
I find this article to be an interesting study in group behavior, particularly in the realm of mass hysteria inadvertently caused by the media. With a better written article most of the discussion here would not need to have taken place. For the people in the know about the grid, this article fails to provide some specific info which would assuage our fears; in the case of the average person who is concerned about the power quality they receive, the two sides of the argument are presented but no conclusion is ever reached. The reporter gave a bunch of opinions from each side without any hard facts or strong statements, allowing the person reading the article to believe what they like (providing an unbiased view is usually good journalism) but leaving the reader without the information required for the them to form their own opinion and causing the typical person to panic due to the uncertainty of the situation. Only people already in the know have any chance to escape the feeling of potentially being screwed by this change, and they have been the only voices of reason in these posts.
[snip]
Hi, not my field but this may be worth reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_demand_(electric_power)
This concept requires frequency variation to shed demand by using just the mismatch between the supply and an internal clock as a signalling system. There are some big users i.e. UK steel plants that are quite happy to loose the odd GW for short periods which they can cover with backup generation if they get paid enough for the privilege.
It could be mandated in certain types of doemstic equipment, fridges/freezers come to mind as it does not need either a smart grid nor a smart meter.
Alex
I am amazed at the number of “so-called” EE’s here that obviously couldn’t find their asses with both hands. It’s truly scary!! Thankfully there are a few clear heads. This is such a non-issue that it should never have been reported as news.
What part of “minor fluctuations in cumulative cycles” don’t you get? Obviously, with the kind of investment that power companies have made in their equipment, they are not going to simply let the grid frequency wonder willynilly where ever it wants to go (virtually impossible anyway what with every generator already interconnected.).
As for the ‘expert’ who was expounding at great length regarding the detrimental effects of grid frequency variation on the health of VFDs. WTF?
VFDs by design are not grid frequency dependent. The converter section (rectifier) couldn’t give a shit about minor fluctuations in grid frequency. Its job is to make DC, period! Decoupling a motor from the grid and its fixed AC frequency by interposing a VFD, (which converts grid AC to DC then, through its Variable Frequency inverter section, back to AC) means the motor can be commanded to run at whatever desired speed is within its operating parameters (including zero speed at full load!).
I recall a major blackout event in South Florida, 1972 if memory serves. I was making my 20 mile commute home from PBJC, and all the traffic lights were out. Annoying. I don’t recall the exact extent, but Dade and Palm Beach counties were affected and some further north, I think. Anyway, the cause was a frequency sensing device that got out of calibration and kicked a plant off line when it thought the frequency was too far out of alignment to the grid. This overloaded another plant, and the cascade started. Messing with line frequency can be bad…
So now my microwave will burn the food as the timer will be wrong. : ) Should I put in 31 seconds now instead of 30? Food waste.
Burch, that was likely due to a bad sensor in the recloser (or substation meter, whichever protection device kicked off the event). It mistakenly thought it was protecting the equipment. Had the sensor been good, the protection circuitry would not have even blinked at the behavior being proposed here.
Bzzzzt!
‘Rotary generation fail’; it will be the ‘equivalent torque’ from that ‘static inverter’ applied to the grid which will be the problem – the system frequency will (attempt to) SPEED UP when wide-spread winds hits the field of windmills and SLOW DOWN when that same wind winds back down … somewhere, many steam-powered turbines (or many nat gas peakers) will be (attempting) to counter those wild swings via individual governor (AGC) action as described by others in this thread and as directed regionally by ACE (Area Control Error) calculations by the regional ISOs – Independent System Operator(s) …
Refs:
Heads I Win, Tails You Lose: What to Do When Wind Doesn’t Perform as Promised
Area Control Error The area control error (ACE) of a system or an interconnected group of systems is the resultant error in area interchange compared to the desired or scheduled interchange
CERTS ACE-Frequency Real-Time Monitoring System
.
Watching TV with black bars crawling vertically through the picture; happens when frequency is
the same but the phase is not, due to no synchronization of 60 hertz.
checked with our vfd guru – yes indeed as noted above all modern vfd are ac-dc-pwm devices so no problem.
However there may be a problem with the many direct drive ac motors running myriads of conveyor belt systems. And since most of those as indeed synchronous motors; then they will be affected by changes of mains frequency. And since not all conveyors in the same system have the same gearing; then resultant changes in conveyor (and screw) speeds will be different – whether it will mater may be found out the hard way – it all depends on by how much the mains frequency is allowed to wander; and over what period it is to be bought back to nominal value.
To the bloke who (correctly) pointed out that PID are run from PLC runing their own clocks – yes – but you missed the point – it was not the PLC instability but the instability of the controlled process variable (PV) – ask your self what happens when you fail to schedule your PID to run at constant repetition rate – yup; the tuning goes haywire : messing with the PV frequency is messing with the time domain in a similar way. Again it depends on a multiple of variables on whether it matters; but since I trouble shoot PID tuning as part of what I do; trust me; the number of unstable loops due to a mS change in program execution times is not insignificant – to the extent that it’s one of the 1st things we [we not just me] insist on being checked; and if the PID is not in a periodic task – well don’t call us until it is.
So as I said – what is needed is some absolute statements about what exactly (engineering usage) they intend to allow. With the feed back to your regulators that there is POTENTIAL for unintended consequences; some of which may be bad.
And if we can spend billions of billions of $ ‘just in case’ AGW will happen; then we should expect ah equal application of the precautionary principle before messing with something as basic and widespread as grid frequency.
How so?
You’re getting those kinds of variations NOW over an 8 to 10 hour period, it’s just that, as proposed, the frequency will not be run back UP and over 60 Hz for any length of time to compensate for the low number of cycles accrued that day (maintaining an average of 60 Hz over a 24 hr period). Actually, here in Texas we witnessed a case where the ERCOT supervised grid made up for lost cycles (suffered during a severe demand/rolling blackout event one morning) over a three or four day period following back in February (18 some seconds worth of cycles)!
So, I don’t see an issue.
If you’re taking frequency excursions now without issue, what WILL the issue be?
A reduction in X numbers of widgets rolling off the production line in a 24 hour period since the average AC Mains frequency (over that 24 Hr time period) will in-the-future work out to an average of 59.95 Hz (cycles/second) instead of 60 Hz?
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It may in fact be an experiment to see how 3 phase power transmission [ normal transmission] reacts to a solar storm or other exceptional event and may thus be an attempt to view the weaknesses in the system/s and thus attempt to make repairs/modifications to ‘harden’ the system/s. After all we wouldn’t expect a major solar flare or emp to act with delicate syncronosity across a 3 phases of a high tension transmission line.
Just a possible logical pathway especially after seeing that NASA is conserned about major solar erruptions in 2012. Not that I believe there will be solar storms any worse in 2012 , as we seem to be in a solar minimum and we may have average solar storms at that peak time.
But the point is that that seems to be what they are thinking and the policy is driven by such thinking .
Or maybe not.
The start of the Stealth Kill Switch for internet shut down? Or is it to mask anomolies brought on by the approach of Planet X? Like global warming is? Under Club of Rome, NWO biggest goal was the de-industrialization of modern man, esp nuclear power (reserved for TPTB alone). No AC during hot summer months could also be a big population reducer like in France where it took out close to 100,000 elderly- as planned.
no air conditioning will not kill us tho it may be unpleasant
people in the 20 century ie. the 1900’s lived in sweltering cities ,,,they lived,they thrived they had big families,,,,,do not confuse modern luxeries with survival,,,,for there are millions that live that way
More “Change” under O’Bummer. You ain’t seen nothin’ yet! If you vote for him again, do you think it will get bettter? Yeah, right.
I love watts up with that,,,,but sometimes there are times when a thread is just a thread,,,sometimes a thread leads to the opposite end whereby the thread shows that there are some few in government that are still doing their jobs. No one is more surprized than me to see that that is the case. I am surethat is why that is since I know many people sincerely employed with
government.
Even so the role of WATTS UP WITH THAT is paramont,,it has done incredible good as it has exposed the lies but care should be taken not to weild the brush too broadly.
I believe that we are entering into a time of global cooling ,,how this will work out ,,no one knows,,,
Watts up with that must appear impartial and scientific ,,,,as it is
Do not repeat the mistakes of the global warming croud in reverse,,,do not try to show a vast conspericy,,,but simply show the truth as you have been doing
Looks like George W. Bush has been playing w___ _______ again and someone has been inspired to apply the result to the powergrid integrity
All your plug in clocks, coffeemakers with timers, VCRs, microwave ovens will now slowly lose the time.
Sounds to me like they plan on it causing a few major hiccups. They will then have the excuse to convince people we need to spend billions to upgrade to the “Smart” electrical grid Obama has been saying we need.
The two or three EEs who know what is going on are correct. This is no big deal. I assure you there will be no harm caused to any of your equipment. The only side effect will be that some clocks will run slightly fast. And any clock that is powered by the grid will lose power on occasion, and need to be set anyway. Still, it is an inconvenience. I really like it when the old 1950’s GE clock in my garage keeps time as accurately as the atomic radio clocks.
But the question remains: Why not true up the grid over the long haul? And why would the East coast gain 20 minutes, while the West coast gains 8? I guarantee you it is not hard to do and doesn’t cost any more money.
You see, if there is a sudden load on the grid, the local voltage will drop and current will flow towards the load. Until more fuel is supplied to the generators, they will come up with the extra energy by slowing down slightly. The short term energy comes from their rotational inertia. Likewise, when load is suddenly removed, the generators will speed up slightly until their fuel supply is cut. The whole purpose of the grid control system is to direct the current from the supply to the load, and always maintain a balance. The act of doing this automatically controls the frequency.
There is a lot of inertia on the grid, in motors and generators, and in the resonance of all the capacitors on the power poles balancing out the mostly inductive loads, such as fluorescent lights. Just imagine every motor and generator on the grid hooked together like one giant flywheel. Very small changes in frequency can yield very large amounts of temporary power.
In fact, the giant chain reaction blackouts like we see on the East coast occur as various parts of the grid fight each other and try to maintain the frequency and power balance. If one leg is slightly ahead of time (it wants the grid to speed up) and another leg is lagging, huge currents will flow between them. When large instabilities occur, power sloshes around the grid uncontrollably, fuses blow and the grid collapses.
One important part of the new Smart Grid is new sensors that monitor the instantaneous phases and power flows much more precisely than in the past. With this fine tuning, the existing grid can handle much more power than before. In the past, the grid had to be overbuilt to provide a safety margin for instabilities. With the new sensors and control technology, the grid can be controlled much more accurately than ever before.
There is only one reason I can think of to speed up the long term average frequency of a grid, and that is to transfer power to another grid through an induction motor/generator. As the frequencies of the two grids slip in relation to each other, power would be transferred from the high frequency grid to the low frequency grid. Then, gears or fluidic torque converters would not be required to generate the slip frequency mechanically. But why would the US grids all gain time? Maybe they are stealing power and transferring it to other disconnected 60 Hz grids.
Or, maybe it’s just a government initiative to reduce tardiness.
I’m beginning to smell a great big commie rat!
It’s a matter for honest science and experts, not speculation. The question I await is the stability of a less regulated grid. And I suspect that’s what the experiment is designed to explore. The grid is, essentially, a network of oscillators and tank circuits – and nobody know how it really works because it’s too complex.
We have 50Hz here in Europe (at least in Sweden), remember my time trying to play a 60Hz game on our 50Hz TV back in the 90´ies… didn´t work at all. Do NOT expect the massmedia to tell you about all the thing that went wrong after this experiment. Sure am glad to not live in the US of A!
Yesterday, in Texas, we lost three different sources of ‘generation’ (ERCOT was not specific in their dispatch as to exactly where/what was lost*) during an early summer ‘heat wave’ that has enveloped us with the following affects to the ERCOT supervised Grid system in Texas in terms of the frequency ‘dip’:
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
Jun 28 2011 06:55:56 CST
On 6/27/11, a sudden loss of generation occurred:
1)
at 12:54 totaling 660 MW.
Frequency dipped to 59.820 Hz,
ERCOT load was 57,004 MW.
2)
At 13:07, a sudden loss of generation totaling 638 MW occurred.
Frequency dipped to 59.887 Hz,
ERCOT load was 57,563 MW.
3)
At 14:38, a sudden loss of generation totaling 512 MW occurred.
Frequency dipped to 59.878 Hz,
ERCOT load was 60,767 MW.
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
Peak ERCOT load yesterday was 62762.04 MW as reported for the 1700 reading.
* Per: http://www.ercot.com/services/comm/mkt_notices/opsmessages/index
.
See the “CERTS ACE-Frequency Real-Time Monitoring System” as referenced in this post.
The ‘smart grid’ is targeted to (at?) consumers and addresses the ‘demand side’ of the power equation (don’t let the sales department over-sell the capabilities purpose of ‘the smart grid’; there systems in place to watch ‘power flows’ into and out of and across power systems today).
An example of a ISO’s (Independent System Operator’s) facilities to monitor the ‘big’ parts of the grid (part of the ‘supply side’) –
– excerpted from:
Midwest Independent Transmission System Operator
Regional Transmission Organization (RTO) Reliability Plan
.