Skeptic Strategy for Talking About Global Warming

Guest Post by Ira Glickstein

What should a responsible Skeptic say to an astute audience? When recently invited by the “Technology, Engineering, and Science Plus” group in my community to give a talk and answer questions, I knew I would have an attentive room of tech-savvy professionals. However, they might not be fully tuned in to the details of the Global Warming controversy. Furthermore, they were likely to have opinions closer to the supposed “mainsteam science” orientation than mine.

In this posting, I’ve summarized the main points I think are most likely to align people who are both intelligent and reasonable to the Skeptic side. My Powerpoint (with talking points for each chart in the Notes section under each slide) is available [click here] for you to use and adapt as you wish.

Highlight scene from former VP Al Gore's Nobel and Oscar-winning movie, An Inconvenient Truth. Dramatic correlation between temperature and CO2 over past 600,000 years. Implication that global mean temperature rise will parallel CO2 increases. But, which way does the causation go? {Annotations by ira@techie.com, TVPClub.blogspot.com}

A. Basic Climate Science – Water vapor (H2O), carbon dioxide (CO2), and other “greenhouse” gases cause the Earth Surface to be warmer than it would be if the Atmosphere was just nitrogen.

  1. Light energy from the Sun warms the Earth System, which consists of our Atmosphere and the Surface. Based on satellite measurements, the Sun provides 1366 Watts per square meter (W/m^2) at the Top of the Atmosphere. After accounting for the Earth’s spherical shape and albedo (reflectiveness), the absorbed energy averages out to about 240 W/m^2 for each square meter.
  2. To maintain a relatively constant mean temperature, Output Energy must equal Input Energy, so the Earth System must emit about 240 W/m^2 out to Space, which it does.
  3. We call the Input Energy “light” because we can see (much of) it. We call the Output Energy “heat” because we can feel it. However, whether it is “short wave” energy from the very hot Sun, or “long wave” from the more moderate Earth System, we know that energy is fungible. 240 W/m^2 of one type is equal, power-wise, to 240 W/m^2 of the other. A Watt is a Watt, no matter what :^)
  4. But, there is an “issue” – if we consider the Earth System as a “black body”, according to the laws of physics, for the Earth System to emit 240 W/m^2, it would have to be at a temperature of only 255 Kelvin, where Kelvins are degrees Celsius above absolute zero. (The Earth System is not exactly a black body, but it is close enough for our purposes here.)
  5. You may remember that anything above absolute zero emits radiant energy and that 0.0 Kelvin corresponds to -273ºC or -460ºF. The “issue” is that the Earth Surface has a mean temperature closer to 288 Kelvin, corresponding to about +15ºC or +59ºF. In other words, the Surface is about 33ºC or 58ºF warmer than the “black body” formula would indicate. How to explain this added warmth?
  6. The generally accepted explanation is the Atmospheric “greenhouse effect”. This is true science, but the name is somewhat misleading because a glass greenhouse works mostly by restricting convection while the Atmospheric effect works mostly by restricting radiation. I use “scare quotes” around “greenhouse” to acknowledge this semantic issue.
  7. The Atmosphere passes most of the “short wave” energy from the Sun and absorbs most of the “long wave” energy from the Surface. The absorbed energy warms the Atmosphere and is re-emitted in all directions at a variety of “long wave” wavelengths. A portion of radiation from the Atmosphere passes out the Top of the Atmosphere to Space. A portion is emitted in the downward direction and is absorbed by the Surface. This absorbed radiant energy accounts for most of the extra 33ºC or 58ºF.
  8. A variety of gases in the Atmosphere, primarily water vapor (H2O) and carbon dioxide (CO2), absorb and re-emit “long wave” radiation. These are called “greenhouse gases”.

B. Divergent Views – There is a valid, science-based argument between people I refer to as Warmists, Lukewarmers, and Skeptics. I distinguish their reasoned views from the far out, unscientific rantings of people I refer to as Alarmists and their equal and opposite reaction opponents, who I call Disbelievers.

  1. VP Al Gore was not the first Alarmist, but his public lectures and his Nobel and Oscar-winning movie, An “Inconvenient” Truth, probably did more than anything else to bring Global Warming Alarmism to the fore in the consciousness of the major media and the general population.
  2. The scene depicted above was the highlight of his presentation.
  3. Gore displays the Ice Core record of the past 600,000 years for CO2 (red) and Temperature (blue). He points out the undoubted correlation between the two parameters. When one goes up so does the other. When one goes down, the other does as well. He points out that the then current CO2 level is considerably higher than that of the past 600,000 years, and he projects the future levels of CO2 assuming it continues to rise at current rates. So far, this is all true.
  4. Dramatically ascending high above the stage on his motorized platform, he implies that mean temperatures will rise in proportion to the CO2. (My graphic is annotated in dashed blue to show the implied warming.) If that happens, he warns, more and more of the polar ice will melt, causing the seas to rise and flooding coastal areas. The ground under the polar ice will be exposed, further reducing the albedo of the Surface and causing further warming. We will reach a tipping point with runaway Global Warming.
  5. The villain of Gore’s story is the human race and our habit of burning ever-increasing quantities of fossil fuels (coal, oil, natural gas) that release unprecedented amounts of CO2. This scene, more than any other event, is most likely responsible for the birth of what has come to be known as Catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Warming, CAGW. In other words, catastrophe due to human-caused Global Warming. It has become the mantra of the Alarmists and an excuse for governments to regulate all fossil fuels as well as land use that affects albedo. Since all industry and agriculture and civilized life itself depends upon fossil fuels and land use, the Alarmists give suitably oriented politicos an excuse to regulate and tax and restrict virtually everything. We outdoors types will need an indulgence from the government every time we pass wind. And, we can forget about lighting a campfire :^).
  6. But, as the annotations in my graphic above show, there is a fundamental “Inconvenient” truth about the ice core data. It has absolutely nothing to say about the current Global Warming controversy! Gore was misleading the media and the public when he implied that rising CO2 levels would cause corresponding increases in mean temperatures. In particular, as any scientist who took a close look at the ice core data would see, and as I show in the inset graph in the upper left corner, Temperature always rises eight-hundred or more years before CO2 increases. The same is true in the other direction. The Temperature falls eight-hundred or more years prior to CO2 decreases. What this shows, if anything, is that TEMPERATURE CAUSES CO2, or, that something else causes both to change, with CO2 lagging by hundreds of years. Gore got the direction of causation backwards.
  7. When the falsehood of this implied causation was pointed out, Gore’s apologists claimed that it was a minor matter and, after all, despite the 800-year lag, both Temperature and CO2 were up together and down together for about 5/6ths of the record. Besides, they said, we are currently burning historically unprecedented amounts of fossil fuel, and, we know that CO2 is a “greenhouse gas”, and so on and on. But, the truth is still that the ice core record is of a time when there were no humans to burn fossil fuels, so why did Gore bring it up since it has no relationship to our current situation? Raw, unfettered Alarmism has had its effect on the media, the political class, and we common citizens who have to pay the costs of the phony CAGW panic.
  8. In politics, as in physics, every reaction has an equal and opposite reaction. In the Case of CAGW, that opposite (and equally false) reaction is what I call Disbeliever AGW or DAGW. These are people who use pseudo-scientific arguments in their claim that humans have had absolutely no hand in the mean temperature rise of the past century, or that there has been no temperature rise, or that the basic science of the Atmospheric “greenhouse effect” is untrue, and so on. I do not like to be to critical of the DAGW crowd because, when it comes to general political decisions, they are more likely than not to agree with me than my opponents, but my academic integrity and ethical duty as a licensed professional engineer require me to state what I see as the error of their arguments. (As I have in my WUWT Visualizing series [1, 2, 3, 4, 5])
  9. Having dismissed what I regard as the unscientific Alarmists and Disbelievers, that leaves us with three groups that, for the most part, use rational science-base arguments for their diverse views. Of course, every member of each group has somewhat different views, and any attempt to divide them into three distinct types is bound to cross some lines. So, please consider my grouping as approximate.
  10. Carbon sensitivity, which is the estimate of how much mean temperatures will increase if CO2 doubles from historical or current levels, is one way to determine which of the the three groups a person belongs to. The Warmists tend to accept the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) estimate of 2.0ºC to 4.5ºC. The Skeptics tend to set carbon sensitivity much lower, perhaps 0.2ºC to 1ºC. The third group, which I call Lukewarmers, would suggest 1ºC to 3ºC.
  11. How much of the rise in CO2 is attributable to human use of fossil fuels is also estimated differently. Warmists would blame humans for nearly all of it, while Skeptics would say less than half. Similarly, the blame for the supposed 0.8ºC rise in mean temperatures since 1880 is mostly attributed to human activities, while Skeptics say that data bias “adjustments” by the official climate record keepers is responsible for about a third of the supposed warming, and that natural cycles, over which humans have no control, are responsible for about half of it, leaving only 0.1ºC (or maybe up to 0.2ºC) to human responsibility. Lukewarmers are somewhere in-between.
  12. Skeptics have well-justified suspicions that the official climate data keepers were “cooking the books” to lend whatever support they could to the highest estimates of carbon sensitivity. Around the year 2000, US Mean Temperature data was “adjusted” down by 0.1 to 0.2ºC for years prior to the 1970’s, and upwards by 0.2 to 0.3ºC for years after the 1970’s, increasing supposed warming by 0.3 to 0.5ºC.
  13. The surfacestations.org project published photos of official temperature measurement stations that were very near artificial sources of heat, with most being in the lowest two of the five quality levels established by the government. The poor quality stations were compared to nearby well-located stations. There were large temperature deltas that could only be accounted for if the the stations now poorly-located were originally well-located, but had been influenced by nearby development, such as paved parking lots, buildings, and air conditioning vents.
  14. According to a figure in the 1990 IPCC report, 1100 to 1300 AD saw temperatures in the northern hemisphere that were higher than current levels. However, the IPCC 2001 report included the infamous so-called “hockey stick” chart that managed to make the Medieval Warm Period of about 1000 years ago disappear! (My Powerpoint set includes charts with evidence of each of the aforementioned issues.)
  15. These suspicions were not fully confirmed until 2009 when someone (probably an inside whistle-blower) released emails and computer code from the Climatic Research Unit (CRU) in the UK, and, later that year, a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request yielded a stash from the US NASA-GISS (Goddard Institute for Space Studies).

C. Climategate – UK Climatic Research Unit (CRU) emails and the US NASA GISS FOIA emails. What they tell us about the published Global Warming data.

IPCC 1990 recognized Medieval Warm Period (MWP) temperatures were above current levels. IPCC 2001 used the "Hockey Stick" chart that makes MWP disappear.
  1. I refer to the CRU as the Climategate Research Unit or, more simply, the Fudge Factory because the words “fudge factor” appear in their computer code. Phil Jones, PhD, is the CRU Director. He confirmed suspicions about the infamous “Hockey Stick” graph when, in an email, he called it “Mike’s Nature trick” (because a version of that graph appeared in a paper by Dr. Michael Mann in the prestigious journal Nature ). He also wrote that the “trick” was designed to “hide the decline” in tree ring proxy data. The tree-ring expert associated with CRU, Keith Brifa, PhD, admits, in one of the emails that “the recent warmth was probably matched about 1,000 years ago”. (My Powerpoint set includes slides with direct quotes from the Climategate materials.)
2007 email from Sato to Hansen details seven analyses of 1934 vs 1998. 1934 starts off with a 0.5ºC lead and ends up in a dead heat.
  1. Moving on to the FOIA emails from GISS, it is interesting to note that their HQ, in New York City, happens to be in the same building as the famous restaurant where Jerry Seinfeld dined with George, Kramer, and Elaine. (It was never revealed what Kramer did for a living – perhaps he was the chief analyst at GISS :^)
  2. The most revealing email from GISS is reproduced above. It was from Makiko Sato, PhD to her Boss, GISS-Director James Hansen, PhD, detailing the seven different analyses and comparisons of US mean temperatures for 1934 and 1998. The later year was the hottest in the 1990’s, so it was, let us say “inconvenient” that 1934, according to data published by GISS in 1999, was over 0.5ºC warmer. If Global Warming was almost entirely due to recent human activities, and was accelerating, how could the 1930 have been warmer?
  3. Just as the Hockey Stick made the Medieval Warm Period disappear, GISS tried mightily to make 1934 cooler than 1998, but only succeeded in reducing the 0.5ºC lead into a dead heat. Notice that the 0.5ºC “adjustment” is more than half the supposed total warming since 1880.
  4. I would like to trust the work of taxpayer-supported science, but, it seems, we must rely on President Reagan’s advice regarding the old Soviet Union, “Trust, but verify!”

D. What We Can and Should Do – Energy policy (cap and trade scam vs carbon tax). Efficiency, conservation, “green“, and renewable sources.

  1. I am quite sure that Global Warming is REAL (i.e. the mean temperature of the Surface has increased by 0.5 to 0.6ºC since 1880) but, most of that increase is due to Natural Cycles over which we humans have no control.
  2. However, the warming is PARTLY Due to Rising CO2 Levels and human actions are PART of the Cause.
  3. There is not and never has been any real danger of catastrophe or even of serious net detriment to human life due to increased CO2 levels. Indeed, modest increases in these parameters are most likely a net benefit.
  4. However, we Skeptics have to be realistic in the current political climate. Like it or not (and I do not like it) the official climate “Team” (i.e., the “Hockey Team” :^) has convinced the political and media establishment, and much of the population that something has to be done. We cannot fight something with nothing, so we need something more than a passive policy of do nothing because nothing is necessary.
  5. Therefore, I favor reduction of the carbon footprint by efficiency, conservation, recycling, and so on, plus the introduction, if and when economically practical of so-called “Green” energy, including Nuclear, Water, Wind, Biomass and, particularly, “Clean” Coal.
  6. If nothing else, these will do minimum harm and, if successful, will reduce US dependence upon foreign oil. We have spent, and continue to sacrifice too much blood and treasure protecting our access, and that of our allies, to energy from unstable regions of the world.
  7. As for the Cap and Trade scam, it is a Politician’s Delight that rewards powerful Interests, wrecks the economy, and will NOT significantly reduce carbon emissions. It seems to me that some countries and US states that have adopted Cap and Trade have realized their folly and are backing away from it.
  8. You may be surprised that I favor some version of a straight Carbon Tax, collected at the mine, well, and port, with the proceeds returned on an equal basis to citizens and legal residents. Yes, James Hansen and (pardon the expression Ralph Nader) also favor it, but, so do conservative columnist Charles Krauthammer, the Wall Street Journal, and others on the right. My support for this tax is based on what I wrote above, “We cannot fight something with nothing” and “We have spent, and continue to sacrifice too much blood and treasure protecting our access, and that of our allies, to energy from unstable regions of the world.”

I’m interested in your critique and comments. (My Powerpoint presentation is available [click here] for you to use and adapt as you wish..)

Get notified when a new post is published.
Subscribe today!
5 1 vote
Article Rating
557 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Neil
May 31, 2011 11:49 am

steptoe fan:
so, what’s a heated rhetoric correct comeback for … we’re past the science ?
My best try so far is “You’re right. You’re past the science. You missed the turn.”
Cheers,
Neil

Theo Goodwin
May 31, 2011 11:53 am

Ira Glickstein, PhD says:
May 31, 2011 at 11:19 am
Layne Blanchard says:
May 30, 2011 at 11:01 pm
“I feel sorry for you because you cannot distinguish between merely mistaken scientists (the Warmists, who truly believe human civilization is headed for long-term problems if mean temperatures and CO2 continue their rise) and the irrational, rogue Alarmists who use scientific argument to support their need for continuing government grants and increased political control.”
Well, Ira, you really asked for this one. Ira, you have no clue what counts as criticism of scientific theory. The Bottom Line on your understanding of the debate about global warming is that you can identify a claim by one side and pair it with a counter-claim from the other side. You show no ability to inform your readers about the relative merit of the claims or of the science, so-called, practiced by the individuals making the claim. You do not understand the fundamental point of scientific method that the burden of proof rests on the scientist but that the sceptic need only show that the scientist has failed in his attempts at proof. Because you have no facility for criticism of science, you are the last one to tell another that they cannot distinguish between the honest and the dishonest science.
“I may be wrong, but I think rational, science-based argument can move the media and political elite, and the general population, to a more moderate view of climate change.”
Sir, a “more moderate view of climate change” is a fantastically tortured idea. To claim that such a thing exists is exactly analogous to claiming that we should hold a more moderate view of “E=MC2.” The theory or hypothesis has the evidence that has been presented for it, nothing more nor less, yet you are incapable of criticizing evidence offered or even identifying what would count as evidence. Your task amounts to nothing more than a nice person’s attempt to apply to this debate some vision of “balance” that is known only to you and that has no foundation in science or scientific method. In science, there is no truth to split. There is only Scientific Method and you are abysmally ignorant of it. You are going down the road of the benighted “Postmodern Science” which would have us throw our science and our policy preferences in a pot and stir them. That is madness, except for the communist whose goal never had anything to do with truth except to distract his victims from it.
Sir, are you unaware that, in your presentation that we are discussing, you correctly identify some of the crooks and charlatans, such as Jones, Hansen, and Gore, but then you end with the policy proposal that we compromise with them. How nutty can you get? You might say that you want to compromise with the moderate Warmista. But who are they and what do they claim? Sweep Jones (hockey stick), Hansen (temperature record and Schmidt’s models), and Gore off the table and what remains? Nothing that you mention. Who are they and what do they hold that you can defend?
If WUWT is to willingly subject itself to this level of discussion then it has given up opposition to the Global Warming Steamroller.

James Davidson
May 31, 2011 11:53 am

You say that for “black body radiation” the Earth’s temperature should be -18c, rather than the +15C it actually is, and attribute this to “greenhouse gases.” I have read that, if you calculate the “greenhouse effect,” Earth’s temperature should be +60C. The difference is caused by the most important “greenhouse gas,” -water vapour. Water vapour can form clouds, increasing the albedo. It can also produce thunderstorms which cause ” convective overturning” of the atmosphere, punting surface heat straight up to the top of the tropospher, where it is more readily radiated to outer space.

Jimi
May 31, 2011 11:57 am

Wow!….Awesome presentation all the way up until you dropped the ball on the one yard line.
I’m all for finding and using better Technology, but agreeing with a specific carbon tax just made your whole presentation BUNK!
Fossil Fuels are already taxed too much. For the sake of economics you can claim that we need a “Technology” tax, to use less fossil fuels, but to call it a “Carbon Tax” reinforces the idea that human are bad for the Planet, which you yourself admit is not the case. Humans may “contribute to change,” but that is a long distance drive from “cause damage.”
If you really feel it is important to call for a added tax, then at least add to your presentation a detailed explaination on exactly how the money is to be spent. Being Vague adds to our economic whoas!

A G Foster
May 31, 2011 12:06 pm

1) This “blood for oil” pratter is even sillier than CAGW. Sadaam invaded Kuwait because he wanted to be the one to sell off their oil, and that’s how it would have gone down had we not invaded. Wars cost more than oil, and raise the price of oil. So which is it: did we invade to bring the price up or down?
2) No presentation could be complete without teaching the history of sea level rise. They will be amazed to learn that nothing catastrophic can be extrapolated from current trends–only theorized.
3) Right, T does not force CO2; ice sheet extension forces both in tandem, and the delay may be explained by CO2 absorption. One would expect any amplification to show up as feedback like a rounded step function–the ocean circulates to some extent from the bottom up, i.e., in discrete quanta, but not discretely enough to press the issue–that CO2 absorbing rock complicates things.
4) What good is C&T with China around, and what good is it without China (see 1 above)?
So that the takeaway message is precisely what we’re fighting against. Other than that, you are reasonably informative. But “blood for oil”? That’s what I would expect from AP. –AGF

H.R.
May 31, 2011 12:13 pm

izen says:
May 31, 2011 at 11:25 am
“@- Jeremy says:
May 31, 2011 at 8:23 am
[…]
But sauce for the goose….
What pattern of climate would cause the ‘skeptics’ here to at least question their presumed absence of AGW? What amount of warming/sea level rise and ice loss would cause ‘skeptics’ to doubt the proposition that the warming is entirely natural or insignificant??”

To say that humans affect global climate I’d have to see more change in global climate than what the earth has seen before, such as:
– more than 100 meters of sea level rise.
– more than 100 meters of sea level drop.
– snowball earth… forever
– aligators and humingbirds at the poles… again
just to mention a few.
Wake me up when the earth experiences global climate that’s truly unprecedented, show me irrefutable evidence that humans dunnit with their e-e-evil CO2, and then I’m all in. Until then… I’m inclined not to buy.

May 31, 2011 12:19 pm

Point 7.
Can’t agree. There is no way a cooler atmosphere can warm the warmer earth’s surface by any means, including ‘back radiation’.
The ‘raised’ temperature of the earth has nothing to do this. It has to do with knowing what it is supposedly raised FROM. We don’t know that fact. All we know is theoretical calculations based on ‘black body radiation’ concepts – which are themselves to a degree theoretical – a true black body does not exist in the real world – it is a theoretical contruct.
Arrhenius deliberately ignored a basic fact about any real absorbant surface: heat is conducted DOWNwards and conducts back to the surface as the surface cools by convection (and some radiation). His paper stated clearly that he ignored this. A mega mistake.
However we can now test how a planetary body without an atmosphere behaves in this regard. We have real temperature data from the moon since the Apollo landings. These show a temperature elvation of 40K above the theoretical temperature. Not a greenhouse gas in sight.
details:
http://climaterealists.com/attachments/database/RadiativeNonEquilbrium_BHermalyn_Final.pdf

May 31, 2011 12:32 pm

I have to take issue with the portrayal of DAGW. IMHO, the “greenhouse” theory is ripe for a paradigm-change, that will make it more comprehensive of real-world situations. Just like when classical Newtonian physics was “expanded” into quantum physics and relativity.
I would find it very peculiar if the “greenhouse” theory were to be the one area of physics where no progress is ever done. Or has ever been done, since Arrhenius’ times.

Matt G
May 31, 2011 12:46 pm

You say that for “black body radiation” the Earth’s temperature should be -18c, rather than the +15C it actually is, and attribute this to “greenhouse gases.”
There is a big problem with this and has never really been solved. The ocean should be included with greenhouse gasses or missing a great energy value of the planet. This is general mainstream problem not just the statement of it. The atmosphere from the ground decreases temperature with height so the main source of energy must be the ocean. Without this body of water this energy would have already been lost to the atmosphere, so +15c would be reduced significantly still with the same atmosphere greenhouse gases composition. Therefore the true value =33c = greenhouse gasses + ocean heat. Greenhouse gases are still overestimated by a large amount, no wonder predictions are always wrong.

Matt G
May 31, 2011 12:52 pm

Added to previous post.
Temperature increases with higher pressure so this has to be taken into account, so putting a value on how much the ocean contributes would be very difficult.

JJ
May 31, 2011 1:00 pm

““We cannot fight something with nothing” ”
But apparently, we can fight it by cutting our own throats?
The sum total of your position is that we do not need to accept the Alarmist reasoning, just their mandates. We dont have to believe in the god of the volcano, we just have to sacrifice our daughters to appease those that do.
Sorry. No.
Perhaps we cannot fight something with nothing, but that is not the situation. They do not have ‘something’. They have nothing. We can fight the unsubstantiated assertion of something, with the reasoned demonstration of nothing. And we should.
We cannot capitulate our way to victory.

Theo Goodwin
May 31, 2011 1:03 pm

izen says:
May 31, 2011 at 11:48 am
@- Theo Goodwin says:
May 31, 2011 at 9:57 am
“Stick to the topic of forcings. The physical hypotheses that are needed would explain how CO2 causes changes in cloud cover and cause an increase or decrease in temperatures. There are no such physical hypotheses. If you have them, please publish them here. Do not assign homework.”
“Okay, no homework! -grin-
The physical hypothesis that explain how changes in CO2 causes changes in the ‘greenhouse’ effect by slowing the rate of cooling at the surface by converting outgoing longwave radiation to thermal energy within the atmosphere is well known, established and recognized.”
What you describe is Arrhenius’ hypothesis. Forcings are the effects on the atmosphere of this “slowed rate of cooling at the surface.” Now you can address those, which is the topic. Originally, Warmista held that the effects would be increased moisture whose overall effect on temperature would be an increase, a positive forcing. The facts never supported this. The Warmista have no physical hypotheses which describe the natural regularities that might make up positive forcings.

Jeremy
May 31, 2011 1:06 pm

izen says:
May 31, 2011 at 11:25 am
But sauce for the goose….
What pattern of climate would cause the ‘skeptics’ here to at least question their presumed absence of AGW? What amount of warming/sea level rise and ice loss would cause ‘skeptics’ to doubt the proposition that the warming is entirely natural or insignificant??

That’s easy, when the temperature follows dominant-positive-feedback models, I’ll accept the CAGW hypothesis. It doesn’t, hasn’t, so I don’t. When the sea level rise exceeds what it has been doing for the last century, I’ll think about things. It hasn’t, has actually started levelling off, so I dont. When the reduction of ice sea/land ice is no longer explainable by PDO cycles and is the same sign in both hemispheres, I’ll rethink. It isn’t, so I dont.

MarkW
May 31, 2011 1:16 pm

A “carbon tax” even if the proceeds are “given” back to the citizens, still has the affect of making everything made in the US more expensive. If you want to see more companies fleeing this country, that is the way to go.
You can’t stop at just taxing oil imports, you have to tax the energy content of every product brought into the US. You also have to refund this tax for any product that is exported.
Then you have to quintuple the size of the Coast Guard in order to stop all of the new smuggling of untaxed products. So there goes your transfer of tax funds back to citizens. All of the money and then some will have to go for policing the tax and it’s consequences. If you thought the drug war was bad …

groweg
May 31, 2011 1:18 pm

The science part of Ira’s presentation is very enlightening. Then Ira goes on to state that since the warmists have political momentum behind them we should compromise with them, have a carbon tax, etc. Thank God when Reagan came to office and the Soviet Union seemed on a roll he didn’t say “lets split the difference” and accept the Soviet Union as it was.
There is no place in public policy for accepting a scam that, because of its unjustified limitations on carbon-based energy, will sink our civilization into economic ruin. There is a need for righteous indignation over the global warming hoax. Ira is not up to that.

Latitude
May 31, 2011 1:28 pm

Ira Glickstein, PhD says:
May 31, 2011 at 1:06 pm
There is almost certainly some feedback where higher CO2 levels cause Temperatures to be higher than they would be otherwise. However, it is also true that Temperatures always start to rise when CO2 is near minimum levels and Temperatures also start to fall when CO2 is near maximum levels.
=====================================================
Ira, the elephant in the room is temperatures falling fast and very low, while CO2 levels stay elevated.
If there is any feedback from CO2, it obviously doesn’t work when compared to everything else.
There are several examples of elevated CO2 levels – staying elevated for 10’s of thousands of years (not 800 – 1200 years) – while temperatures fall and fall fast.
Obviously, if elevated CO2 levels can not even hold temperatures up….
…elevated CO2 can’t drive temperatures up

May 31, 2011 1:35 pm

Ira says:”Imagine, if you will, the Sun being replaced by a cold object of the same mass. Of course, the Earth would cool to some low temperature, but gravity would remain the same as will most gases in the air (except for water vapor, which will precipitate out). Absent Solar radiation, the Atmospheric “greenhouse effect” will cease as well. OK, on cold Earth some lapse rate will occur. Will Postma’s math work in that case?”
Is it your contention that in PV=nRT that T is the driver via the sun and P of atmosphere has nothing to do with the mass of the atmosphere?

RJ
May 31, 2011 1:38 pm

Reed Coray
“1. Human CO2 emissions have caused CO2 build up in the atmosphere [Probably.]”
Probably on what grounds. Human emissions are around 8% or less of the total. Natural 92%. It seems unlikely that the increase is due to humans. A better answer might be unknown but unlikely.

Jan v J
May 31, 2011 1:44 pm

How can you (or anyone else) prescribe a Carbon (Dioxide) Tax for 0.7° (0.6° – or less) over a century?

RJ
May 31, 2011 1:52 pm

“The science part of Ira’s presentation is very enlightening.”
But is now being seriously challenged. Ira just will not let his old beliefs go. Especially this one
“This absorbed radiant energy accounts for most of the extra 33ºC or 58ºF.”
This is nonsense. Energy can not leave earth and somehow magically return as more to further heat the earth.

Sean Ogilvie
May 31, 2011 1:55 pm

My own critiques Part 1:
D 1; I am quite sure that Global Warming is REAL (i.e. the mean temperature of the Surface has increased by 0.5 to 0.6ºC since 1880) but, most of that increase is due to Natural Cycles over which we humans have no control.
I disagree. I think that the quality of the pre-satellite measurement is so poor that you can not be sure. Personally I think it’s warmed up but I’m not sure and I certainly wouldn’t put an estimate of any kind let alone one that tight. Anthony showed that the current US data is crap. God knows what it was like 20, 50, 100 or 130 years ago. It is probably better Today then ever before and that’s a scary thought.

RJ
May 31, 2011 1:56 pm

Jan v J
“How can you (or anyone else) prescribe a Carbon (Dioxide) Tax for 0.7° (0.6° – or less) over a century?”
A good question. Unless Ira is just trying to break his comments record.

1 7 8 9 10 11 23