Skeptic Strategy for Talking About Global Warming

Guest Post by Ira Glickstein

What should a responsible Skeptic say to an astute audience? When recently invited by the “Technology, Engineering, and Science Plus” group in my community to give a talk and answer questions, I knew I would have an attentive room of tech-savvy professionals. However, they might not be fully tuned in to the details of the Global Warming controversy. Furthermore, they were likely to have opinions closer to the supposed “mainsteam science” orientation than mine.

In this posting, I’ve summarized the main points I think are most likely to align people who are both intelligent and reasonable to the Skeptic side. My Powerpoint (with talking points for each chart in the Notes section under each slide) is available [click here] for you to use and adapt as you wish.

Highlight scene from former VP Al Gore's Nobel and Oscar-winning movie, An Inconvenient Truth. Dramatic correlation between temperature and CO2 over past 600,000 years. Implication that global mean temperature rise will parallel CO2 increases. But, which way does the causation go? {Annotations by ira@techie.com, TVPClub.blogspot.com}

A. Basic Climate Science – Water vapor (H2O), carbon dioxide (CO2), and other “greenhouse” gases cause the Earth Surface to be warmer than it would be if the Atmosphere was just nitrogen.

  1. Light energy from the Sun warms the Earth System, which consists of our Atmosphere and the Surface. Based on satellite measurements, the Sun provides 1366 Watts per square meter (W/m^2) at the Top of the Atmosphere. After accounting for the Earth’s spherical shape and albedo (reflectiveness), the absorbed energy averages out to about 240 W/m^2 for each square meter.
  2. To maintain a relatively constant mean temperature, Output Energy must equal Input Energy, so the Earth System must emit about 240 W/m^2 out to Space, which it does.
  3. We call the Input Energy “light” because we can see (much of) it. We call the Output Energy “heat” because we can feel it. However, whether it is “short wave” energy from the very hot Sun, or “long wave” from the more moderate Earth System, we know that energy is fungible. 240 W/m^2 of one type is equal, power-wise, to 240 W/m^2 of the other. A Watt is a Watt, no matter what :^)
  4. But, there is an “issue” – if we consider the Earth System as a “black body”, according to the laws of physics, for the Earth System to emit 240 W/m^2, it would have to be at a temperature of only 255 Kelvin, where Kelvins are degrees Celsius above absolute zero. (The Earth System is not exactly a black body, but it is close enough for our purposes here.)
  5. You may remember that anything above absolute zero emits radiant energy and that 0.0 Kelvin corresponds to -273ºC or -460ºF. The “issue” is that the Earth Surface has a mean temperature closer to 288 Kelvin, corresponding to about +15ºC or +59ºF. In other words, the Surface is about 33ºC or 58ºF warmer than the “black body” formula would indicate. How to explain this added warmth?
  6. The generally accepted explanation is the Atmospheric “greenhouse effect”. This is true science, but the name is somewhat misleading because a glass greenhouse works mostly by restricting convection while the Atmospheric effect works mostly by restricting radiation. I use “scare quotes” around “greenhouse” to acknowledge this semantic issue.
  7. The Atmosphere passes most of the “short wave” energy from the Sun and absorbs most of the “long wave” energy from the Surface. The absorbed energy warms the Atmosphere and is re-emitted in all directions at a variety of “long wave” wavelengths. A portion of radiation from the Atmosphere passes out the Top of the Atmosphere to Space. A portion is emitted in the downward direction and is absorbed by the Surface. This absorbed radiant energy accounts for most of the extra 33ºC or 58ºF.
  8. A variety of gases in the Atmosphere, primarily water vapor (H2O) and carbon dioxide (CO2), absorb and re-emit “long wave” radiation. These are called “greenhouse gases”.

B. Divergent Views – There is a valid, science-based argument between people I refer to as Warmists, Lukewarmers, and Skeptics. I distinguish their reasoned views from the far out, unscientific rantings of people I refer to as Alarmists and their equal and opposite reaction opponents, who I call Disbelievers.

  1. VP Al Gore was not the first Alarmist, but his public lectures and his Nobel and Oscar-winning movie, An “Inconvenient” Truth, probably did more than anything else to bring Global Warming Alarmism to the fore in the consciousness of the major media and the general population.
  2. The scene depicted above was the highlight of his presentation.
  3. Gore displays the Ice Core record of the past 600,000 years for CO2 (red) and Temperature (blue). He points out the undoubted correlation between the two parameters. When one goes up so does the other. When one goes down, the other does as well. He points out that the then current CO2 level is considerably higher than that of the past 600,000 years, and he projects the future levels of CO2 assuming it continues to rise at current rates. So far, this is all true.
  4. Dramatically ascending high above the stage on his motorized platform, he implies that mean temperatures will rise in proportion to the CO2. (My graphic is annotated in dashed blue to show the implied warming.) If that happens, he warns, more and more of the polar ice will melt, causing the seas to rise and flooding coastal areas. The ground under the polar ice will be exposed, further reducing the albedo of the Surface and causing further warming. We will reach a tipping point with runaway Global Warming.
  5. The villain of Gore’s story is the human race and our habit of burning ever-increasing quantities of fossil fuels (coal, oil, natural gas) that release unprecedented amounts of CO2. This scene, more than any other event, is most likely responsible for the birth of what has come to be known as Catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Warming, CAGW. In other words, catastrophe due to human-caused Global Warming. It has become the mantra of the Alarmists and an excuse for governments to regulate all fossil fuels as well as land use that affects albedo. Since all industry and agriculture and civilized life itself depends upon fossil fuels and land use, the Alarmists give suitably oriented politicos an excuse to regulate and tax and restrict virtually everything. We outdoors types will need an indulgence from the government every time we pass wind. And, we can forget about lighting a campfire :^).
  6. But, as the annotations in my graphic above show, there is a fundamental “Inconvenient” truth about the ice core data. It has absolutely nothing to say about the current Global Warming controversy! Gore was misleading the media and the public when he implied that rising CO2 levels would cause corresponding increases in mean temperatures. In particular, as any scientist who took a close look at the ice core data would see, and as I show in the inset graph in the upper left corner, Temperature always rises eight-hundred or more years before CO2 increases. The same is true in the other direction. The Temperature falls eight-hundred or more years prior to CO2 decreases. What this shows, if anything, is that TEMPERATURE CAUSES CO2, or, that something else causes both to change, with CO2 lagging by hundreds of years. Gore got the direction of causation backwards.
  7. When the falsehood of this implied causation was pointed out, Gore’s apologists claimed that it was a minor matter and, after all, despite the 800-year lag, both Temperature and CO2 were up together and down together for about 5/6ths of the record. Besides, they said, we are currently burning historically unprecedented amounts of fossil fuel, and, we know that CO2 is a “greenhouse gas”, and so on and on. But, the truth is still that the ice core record is of a time when there were no humans to burn fossil fuels, so why did Gore bring it up since it has no relationship to our current situation? Raw, unfettered Alarmism has had its effect on the media, the political class, and we common citizens who have to pay the costs of the phony CAGW panic.
  8. In politics, as in physics, every reaction has an equal and opposite reaction. In the Case of CAGW, that opposite (and equally false) reaction is what I call Disbeliever AGW or DAGW. These are people who use pseudo-scientific arguments in their claim that humans have had absolutely no hand in the mean temperature rise of the past century, or that there has been no temperature rise, or that the basic science of the Atmospheric “greenhouse effect” is untrue, and so on. I do not like to be to critical of the DAGW crowd because, when it comes to general political decisions, they are more likely than not to agree with me than my opponents, but my academic integrity and ethical duty as a licensed professional engineer require me to state what I see as the error of their arguments. (As I have in my WUWT Visualizing series [1, 2, 3, 4, 5])
  9. Having dismissed what I regard as the unscientific Alarmists and Disbelievers, that leaves us with three groups that, for the most part, use rational science-base arguments for their diverse views. Of course, every member of each group has somewhat different views, and any attempt to divide them into three distinct types is bound to cross some lines. So, please consider my grouping as approximate.
  10. Carbon sensitivity, which is the estimate of how much mean temperatures will increase if CO2 doubles from historical or current levels, is one way to determine which of the the three groups a person belongs to. The Warmists tend to accept the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) estimate of 2.0ºC to 4.5ºC. The Skeptics tend to set carbon sensitivity much lower, perhaps 0.2ºC to 1ºC. The third group, which I call Lukewarmers, would suggest 1ºC to 3ºC.
  11. How much of the rise in CO2 is attributable to human use of fossil fuels is also estimated differently. Warmists would blame humans for nearly all of it, while Skeptics would say less than half. Similarly, the blame for the supposed 0.8ºC rise in mean temperatures since 1880 is mostly attributed to human activities, while Skeptics say that data bias “adjustments” by the official climate record keepers is responsible for about a third of the supposed warming, and that natural cycles, over which humans have no control, are responsible for about half of it, leaving only 0.1ºC (or maybe up to 0.2ºC) to human responsibility. Lukewarmers are somewhere in-between.
  12. Skeptics have well-justified suspicions that the official climate data keepers were “cooking the books” to lend whatever support they could to the highest estimates of carbon sensitivity. Around the year 2000, US Mean Temperature data was “adjusted” down by 0.1 to 0.2ºC for years prior to the 1970’s, and upwards by 0.2 to 0.3ºC for years after the 1970’s, increasing supposed warming by 0.3 to 0.5ºC.
  13. The surfacestations.org project published photos of official temperature measurement stations that were very near artificial sources of heat, with most being in the lowest two of the five quality levels established by the government. The poor quality stations were compared to nearby well-located stations. There were large temperature deltas that could only be accounted for if the the stations now poorly-located were originally well-located, but had been influenced by nearby development, such as paved parking lots, buildings, and air conditioning vents.
  14. According to a figure in the 1990 IPCC report, 1100 to 1300 AD saw temperatures in the northern hemisphere that were higher than current levels. However, the IPCC 2001 report included the infamous so-called “hockey stick” chart that managed to make the Medieval Warm Period of about 1000 years ago disappear! (My Powerpoint set includes charts with evidence of each of the aforementioned issues.)
  15. These suspicions were not fully confirmed until 2009 when someone (probably an inside whistle-blower) released emails and computer code from the Climatic Research Unit (CRU) in the UK, and, later that year, a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request yielded a stash from the US NASA-GISS (Goddard Institute for Space Studies).

C. Climategate – UK Climatic Research Unit (CRU) emails and the US NASA GISS FOIA emails. What they tell us about the published Global Warming data.

IPCC 1990 recognized Medieval Warm Period (MWP) temperatures were above current levels. IPCC 2001 used the "Hockey Stick" chart that makes MWP disappear.
  1. I refer to the CRU as the Climategate Research Unit or, more simply, the Fudge Factory because the words “fudge factor” appear in their computer code. Phil Jones, PhD, is the CRU Director. He confirmed suspicions about the infamous “Hockey Stick” graph when, in an email, he called it “Mike’s Nature trick” (because a version of that graph appeared in a paper by Dr. Michael Mann in the prestigious journal Nature ). He also wrote that the “trick” was designed to “hide the decline” in tree ring proxy data. The tree-ring expert associated with CRU, Keith Brifa, PhD, admits, in one of the emails that “the recent warmth was probably matched about 1,000 years ago”. (My Powerpoint set includes slides with direct quotes from the Climategate materials.)
2007 email from Sato to Hansen details seven analyses of 1934 vs 1998. 1934 starts off with a 0.5ºC lead and ends up in a dead heat.
  1. Moving on to the FOIA emails from GISS, it is interesting to note that their HQ, in New York City, happens to be in the same building as the famous restaurant where Jerry Seinfeld dined with George, Kramer, and Elaine. (It was never revealed what Kramer did for a living – perhaps he was the chief analyst at GISS :^)
  2. The most revealing email from GISS is reproduced above. It was from Makiko Sato, PhD to her Boss, GISS-Director James Hansen, PhD, detailing the seven different analyses and comparisons of US mean temperatures for 1934 and 1998. The later year was the hottest in the 1990’s, so it was, let us say “inconvenient” that 1934, according to data published by GISS in 1999, was over 0.5ºC warmer. If Global Warming was almost entirely due to recent human activities, and was accelerating, how could the 1930 have been warmer?
  3. Just as the Hockey Stick made the Medieval Warm Period disappear, GISS tried mightily to make 1934 cooler than 1998, but only succeeded in reducing the 0.5ºC lead into a dead heat. Notice that the 0.5ºC “adjustment” is more than half the supposed total warming since 1880.
  4. I would like to trust the work of taxpayer-supported science, but, it seems, we must rely on President Reagan’s advice regarding the old Soviet Union, “Trust, but verify!”

D. What We Can and Should Do – Energy policy (cap and trade scam vs carbon tax). Efficiency, conservation, “green“, and renewable sources.

  1. I am quite sure that Global Warming is REAL (i.e. the mean temperature of the Surface has increased by 0.5 to 0.6ºC since 1880) but, most of that increase is due to Natural Cycles over which we humans have no control.
  2. However, the warming is PARTLY Due to Rising CO2 Levels and human actions are PART of the Cause.
  3. There is not and never has been any real danger of catastrophe or even of serious net detriment to human life due to increased CO2 levels. Indeed, modest increases in these parameters are most likely a net benefit.
  4. However, we Skeptics have to be realistic in the current political climate. Like it or not (and I do not like it) the official climate “Team” (i.e., the “Hockey Team” :^) has convinced the political and media establishment, and much of the population that something has to be done. We cannot fight something with nothing, so we need something more than a passive policy of do nothing because nothing is necessary.
  5. Therefore, I favor reduction of the carbon footprint by efficiency, conservation, recycling, and so on, plus the introduction, if and when economically practical of so-called “Green” energy, including Nuclear, Water, Wind, Biomass and, particularly, “Clean” Coal.
  6. If nothing else, these will do minimum harm and, if successful, will reduce US dependence upon foreign oil. We have spent, and continue to sacrifice too much blood and treasure protecting our access, and that of our allies, to energy from unstable regions of the world.
  7. As for the Cap and Trade scam, it is a Politician’s Delight that rewards powerful Interests, wrecks the economy, and will NOT significantly reduce carbon emissions. It seems to me that some countries and US states that have adopted Cap and Trade have realized their folly and are backing away from it.
  8. You may be surprised that I favor some version of a straight Carbon Tax, collected at the mine, well, and port, with the proceeds returned on an equal basis to citizens and legal residents. Yes, James Hansen and (pardon the expression Ralph Nader) also favor it, but, so do conservative columnist Charles Krauthammer, the Wall Street Journal, and others on the right. My support for this tax is based on what I wrote above, “We cannot fight something with nothing” and “We have spent, and continue to sacrifice too much blood and treasure protecting our access, and that of our allies, to energy from unstable regions of the world.”

I’m interested in your critique and comments. (My Powerpoint presentation is available [click here] for you to use and adapt as you wish..)

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Sean Ogilvie
May 31, 2011 1:56 pm

My own critiques Part 2:
B 12; Skeptics have well-justified suspicions that the official climate data keepers were “cooking the books” to lend whatever support they could to the highest estimates of carbon sensitivity. Around the year 2000, US Mean Temperature data was “adjusted” down by 0.1 to 0.2ºC for years prior to the 1970′s, and upwards by 0.2 to 0.3ºC for years after the 1970′s, increasing supposed warming by 0.3 to 0.5ºC.
They’ve adjusted since then as well at least on the GISS Surface Temperature Analysis
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/maps/
Between 1/30/2010 and 2/18/2010 the lowered the January 1880 Temp anomaly from + 0.49ºC to -0.02ºC. Overall they’ve dropped 1880 from 0.099ºC to -0.195ºC. I’ve got partial data if anyone is interested.

May 31, 2011 2:10 pm

Dr Glickstein, I may not have a scientific bone in my body, but I’ve no doubt that you are a brilliant scientist. The respect most here express over your science and your ability to clearly explain issues over which I’ve scratched my head assure me of that. However, with all due respect Doc, please keep your day job and avoid speculating over clever schemes.
To wit:
“If ALL my conditions were not met (across-the-board, all fossil fuels, no exceptions, etc., and all revenues distributed equally to citizens and legal residents, and a pre-set schedule for regular increases to the initially small tax percentage) I would withdraw my support for the Carbon Tax.” Seriously, any chance that any of your conditions will be met? And then what? When the inevitable happens, in small part thanks to your concessions, you’ll write a letter to someone and withdraw your crucial support for the carbon tax? O, yes, that’ll teach them.
“As I wrote above, I proposed it mainly as something to counter the Cap and Trade scam. If the idea of the Carbon Tax issue succeeds in dividing the Alarmists, and throwing them off their perch, it will have served its purpose even if it never becomes law.” And the Warmist-Alarmist crowd is so stupid, of course, they’ll never clue in. How diabolically devious, what a trap! Niccolo would’ve been proud! Please, Doctor, this is cringe stuff. About as brilliant as the generous handing over of Gaza to a pseudo-government of a pseudo-nation (in the hope of dividing the crazies ?), not getting it why they’re repaying with thousands of rockets aimed at playgrounds and malls and then, perhaps to prove that idiocy can afflict even the smartest of people, trying to improve the situation by offering the gomers even more legitimacy, perks and land.

Ammonite
May 31, 2011 2:11 pm

jaypan says: May 30, 2011 at 10:31 pm
“However, it is starting with “TEMPERATURE CAUSES CO2, … with CO2 lagging by hundreds of years”, to concede later on that “… the warming is PARTLY Due to Rising CO2 Levels and human actions are PART of the Cause”.
How’s that working? If statement 1 is true, then statement 2must be wrong, and the other way around. Or am I wrong? Have been in the past …”
Hi jaypan. As Ira Glickstein has alluded to above, the two statements are not mutually incompatible. Ice ages are started and ended when orbital forcing dominates other forcings (Milankovitch cycles). When ice ages end CO2 is believed to degas as oceans warm, increasing its concentration. Because, as Ira has also alluded to above, CO2 is a greenhouse gas it has its own effect, further increasing temperature (a positive feedback in engineering terms). Temperature and CO2 are coupled.
Further, observed post ice-age behaviour can be used to gain an estimate of climate sensitivity to rising CO2. It is not 0.2C. It is not 1.0C. It falls within the IPCC 2.0-4.5C range. The effects of positive feedback are not “assumed”, they are deduced from observable behaviour and known physics.

Latitude
May 31, 2011 2:20 pm

Ira said:
“I am quite sure that Global Warming is REAL (i.e. the mean temperature of the Surface has increased by 0.5 to 0.6ºC since 1880) but, most of that increase is due to Natural Cycles over which we humans have no control.”
====================================================
I know people like to start at around 1880 or even ~1970’s, to try to show the most dramatic increase in temperatures………
….If you start at ~1700, you see an even faster 100 year increase in temperature….
..that can’t possibly be man made
Ira, this whole global warming scam started about 30 years ago.
They used the first 20 years of data to prove it was happening, and
temperatures cooperated with them.
These last 10 years, temperatures have gone down, ocean temperatures have gone down, sea levels have gone down…..
What kind of theory/hypothesis/guess do you have when 1/3 of your data is going the wrong way?………………………………

Andre Bijkerk
May 31, 2011 2:26 pm

Maybe step 6 is a bit different. Maybe that the difference between black body temperature and actual surface temperature is not caused by greenhouse gas effect.
What if we applied the null-hypothesis? Suppose that the Earth atmosphere was inert, not capable of absorbing nor emitting electromagnetic (IR) radiation? Would it be not be heated then? But how about conduction, convection and advection. Clearly also an atmosphere without greenhouse effect would be heated to some extend by these means.
But if that heating happens at daytime, how does a non-radiating atmosphere cool at night time. Actually it doesn’t hardly at all, since there is no negative convection. Only the lowest boundary layer cools by conduction, causing the so called inversion. So that means that the atmosphere -devoid of radiation, in the null hypothesis- continues to accumulate heat by convection at daytime, until the convection stops. Hence a radiationless atmsphere is a lot warmer than the surface of the earth.

MarkW
May 31, 2011 2:28 pm

Human emissions are around 8% or less of the total. Natural 92%.

And concentrations are increasing at rates much less than 8% per year.

Bulldust
May 31, 2011 2:28 pm

We are facing your preferred approach in Australia as we speak, and let me tell you, the citizens are not happy at the prospect of a carbon (sic) price (sic). The current Labor-Green-Independent minority government is trying to frighten the public with extreme alarmism and is facing a lashing in the polls.
Nothing is better than the something of a carbon tax. I say that as an economist and firmly believe it. I do not agree that a politically expedient compromise that wastes billions of dolars (ours being worth more then yours these days… go figure) is justified. The “climate change” politics has become too established in modern politics and nothing short of a radical change in politics can erradicate it.
I should note at this point that I am centre-left politically (especially as measured in the US political landscape), but I cannot begin to imagine voting for the left-leaning parties in Australia as long as they continue to peddle the lunacy of curbing CO2 emissions ahead of the major emitters of the world. We could stop all emissions in Australia from today and henceforth and you wouldn’t be able to measure the impact on climate.
Otherwise I liked the presentation 🙂

Dr A Burns
May 31, 2011 2:33 pm

Ira,
“Statement 2 has to do with basic climate science. CO2 is a so-called “greenhouse gas” and, as such, doubling the pre-industrial level of about 270 ppmv to 540 ppmv (or the current level of 390 ppmv to 780 ppmv) is bound to cause mean temperatures to rise at least a little bit over what they would be due to natural cycles alone. IMHO, the valid scientific questions (and my answers) are: 1- How much of the past 50 year rise in CO2 is due to human activity? (substantial, but less than half), 2- How much would mean temperatures rise if CO2 doubles, and all else remained constant? (no more than 1ºC), and, 3- Considering climate feedback (clouds, etc), what will be the net mean temperature rise above natural cycles due to doubling of CO2? (between 0.2ºC and 1ºC).”
Like the alarmists, you have failed to distinguish between theory and evidence. There is no evidence that recent CO2 increases (or temp increases) have been caused by man. It is possible they have been caused by the warming since the LIA. You have already pointed out that CO2 increases are an EFFECT of warming, not a CAUSE. It is impossible to claim to what extent, if any, additional CO2 output by man would have on global temperatures. In THEORY, you might claim some effect of an indeterminable magnitude but in practise, this has not been established.

Theo Goodwin
May 31, 2011 2:40 pm

JJ says:
May 31, 2011 at 1:00 pm
“Perhaps we cannot fight something with nothing, but that is not the situation. They do not have ‘something’. They have nothing. We can fight the unsubstantiated assertion of something, with the reasoned demonstration of nothing. And we should.”
Very well said. Ira makes the egregious error of assuming that the scientist and the critic are in symmetric positions. False. The scientist proposes and supports, the critic criticizes the proposal and its support. There is no symmetry. Ira uses his bizarre concept of “balance” that might be appropriate when guiding kindergarteners through soccer practice but never appropriate in debate among scientists. If the scientist cannot provide support that renders his physical hypotheses well-confirmed then he has failed. Game Set Match. It is as simple as that. There are no other “values” to be spread around among scientists, critics, and audience.

Ross
May 31, 2011 3:03 pm

I see comments all the time that there is a temperature “anomaly” to explain hence it must be “Greenhouse Gases”.
When you understand the chicanery the IPCC has pulled to justify this you will wonder how anyone ever got conned – for a con it is – I don’t know why but I know it is.
It is all about the way they estimate incoming solar radiation.
First they reduce 1366 W/sq m to 683 W/sq m BECAUSE half of the earth is always in darkness.
C’mon – how does this work ? It is nonsence. It is like saying because I have my backed to a radiator its emission is cut in half.
Of course the solar constant is not cut in half because half the world is in darkness. It doesn’t make sense from an “averaging” perspective because the world is constantly spinning and parts are going from dark to light and vice versa.
The second is because they want to consider the earth as a circular disk – not a hemisphere. A disk has half the surface area of a hemisphere so this justifies cutting incoming solar radiation in half again ?
So now they’ve got it where they need it 342 W/sq m – apply the albedo – they say 0.31 – and its down to 235 W/sq m.
Stefan-Boltzman says 235 W/sq m = minus 18 C –
C’mon Big Daddy – we’ve got ourselves an anomaly.
So invent a “greenhouse” theory and away we go.
How do they explain that 50 degrees C – a temperature which is recorded on earth – requires 883 W/sq m by Stefan-Boltzman.
Back Radiation ??
C’mon – their often cited energy budget model (Kiehl & Trenberth, IPCC) has only 168 W/sq m incoming solar plus 324 W/sq m “back radiation” – 492 W/sq m.
C’mon – this is laughable.
492 W/sq m gives a maximum of about 32 degrees C so you’ll be pleased to note that meterologists that report higher temperatures than that must be lying.
I know they are talking averages – that is what is wrong with their whole theory.

Ross
May 31, 2011 3:11 pm

In my previous post I have 883 W/sq m for 50 degrees C – I meant 883 is incoming solar – apply albedo and it becomes 618 which gives 50 degrees C.
Should have clarified that.
The IPCC is wrong to base a whole raft of “science” on their incoming solar radiation of 342 W/sq m – where did all this extra energy that is their “back radiation” come from – they say “its not the sun”.
It is Voodoo Science – sorry to call it science elevates it above its real station.

May 31, 2011 3:23 pm

Ira
Claiming that CO2 doesn’t cause any warming will just get skeptics dismissed as anti science. The fact that sunlight shone through a bottle of 100 % CO2 gets warmer than if the bottle were filled with air proves that CO2 causes warming.
Disputing basic science is not a way to “win friends and influence people”!
As you point out the amount of warming is in dispute not the fact. If our bottle had 380 PPM of CO2 and the control had 0 % the difference would be unmeasurable . What about a planet.
The basic amount of warming is not a cause for CAGW [1 degree C per doubling of CO2] the feedback must be present and strong for serious warming to occur.
Since the primary positive feedback is theorized to come from water vapor the fact that atmospheric water vapor has gone down since 1950 or so causes CAGW to be an untenable position.
http://c3headlines.typepad.com/.a/6a010536b58035970c0147e2fc6895970b-pi
I have to disagree with you on one point. The right response to a non problem is the courage to do nothing.

John B
May 31, 2011 3:27 pm

Ira, here’s the problem.
Some snippets from further up the thread:
Human CO2 emissions have caused CO2 build up in the atmosphere [Probably.]
Probably on what grounds. Human emissions are around 8% or less of the total. Natural 92%. It seems unlikely that the increase is due to humans. A better answer might be unknown but unlikely.
There is no evidence that recent CO2 increases (or temp increases) have been caused by man.

There is not a unified skeptic position to align around. Skeptics are all against AGW but not for the same thing.
John

Spector
May 31, 2011 3:28 pm

RE: main article
“What should a responsible Skeptic say to an astute audience?”
Perhaps another question that might be asked as well would be “What should a responsible Skeptic say to the non-astute audience?” Many of these people tend to see climate-change skepticism as a closed-minded ideology supporting the interests of “Big XXX” while the planet boils.
However, the presentation above does look very good.

Myrrh
May 31, 2011 3:44 pm

Ira – again you begin with the Alice through the Looking Glass impossible AGWScience as your base premise of the KT97 energy budget – that Light energies heat the Earth… All Thermal Infrared is excluded!
Thermal Infrared is the Heat that everyone can feel from the Sun, that penetrates into our bodies and warms us up, that really warms the land and oceans of the Earth, but no, through the looking glass with Ira we have the impossible cold Light of day energies heating the land and sea. Have you tried heating a cup of water with Blue Visible Light yet?
You keep selling AGWScience fiction against real physics and keep pushing support for the egotists who want to screw us into slavery by their sociopathic masterplan, there’s nothing to disbelieve in that, to disbelieve something one has to take it seriously, to give it credibility in the first place, but, it’s same old, same old; yet another fictional meme to excite religious fervour as a means of control by the still unevolved genetic has beens self-deluded by mistaking power over others for intelligence.

May 31, 2011 3:53 pm

Ouch!
It seems to me that you’re very confused about some fundamentals here – for example your claim that CO2 both lags significant change and causes it is based on.. what? a first trimester view of causation? (I.e. the belief that CO2 gets you partially pregnant)
Ultimately I think you preclude too many alternatives: check your logic and you’ll see yourself repeatedly discrediting two extremes and then adopting the middle position as the only thing left when, in reality, there are other explanatory mechanisms leading to other choices.
This is great for TV interviews, but it isn’t science – and, in that same vein, the range of change you cite as credible is well within known error bounds on the measurements, and therefore, indistinguishable from a claim of no change at all.
You do the same thing when you discuss policy options: assume that assuming away the extremes leaves the middle as the only option. That’s wrong: when bad science meets policy agendas to start the funding ball rolling for more and worse science, the right answer isn’t to slice a disk out of snowball and keep that, it’s to start over and re-do the bad science at the core of the whole mess.

Kev-in-Uk
May 31, 2011 3:54 pm

RJ says:
May 31, 2011 at 1:52 pm
I agree – I still struggle to understand how the back radiation works to cause such alleged massive (as in currently due to CO2!) change over such a short timescale (decades?). I have no problem with an atmospheric warming effect (due to GHG’s or not , I mean, its really the whole atmospheric effect not just GHG’s), the sum of which is that the atmosphere acts to ‘slow down’ the radiant heat loss from the planet.
But I do have an issue with the fact that this energy loss (OR gain from the sun) MUST vary and will take time to establish a measurable surface effect. i.e. The sun chucks out some extra heat, and maybe decades later, the planet reflects the warming, with increased temp and subsequently increased radiant output – in the meantime, the sun has gone quiet, and the earth is sat there outputting more that it recieves and subsequently cools – its not really difficult to envisage. When you add in the fact of the ‘thermal mass’ of the oceans, land, atmosphere, humidity, orbital variations, etc, these all further affect the time lag/observational delay – and it is entirely clear (in my mind, anyway) that variations in temperatures are therefore highly likely to vary in some kind of semi chaotic natural and cyclic manner, with an equally variable semi chaotic or natural ‘time lag’ (or delay) from any input or output change to any observable differences. As a geologist, I say cyclical deliberately, because we know full well that temps have been much warmer AND much colder in pre-so called ‘anthropogenic’ times! Ergo, there must be some form of ‘cycles’?
Even if one accepts that AGW is significant (which I absolutely do not!) – the important point is whether a relatively minor increase in CO2 will result in a MAINTAINED increase in temp – because logically, what will happen is that radiant heat output will increase to match the (alleged) temp increase and the situation will stabilise? Indeed, if the time lag is so short (decades according to the IPCC alarmists?!) severely cutting emissions could precipitate a serious cooling as the planet readjusts! (i.e. continuing chucking out our heat to space whilst we are ‘reducing’ the so called GHG effect?)
Again, as a geologist, I can only say that the scale of the ‘natural world’ is far greater and far more complex than any computer frickin model can ever hope to produce!

Bryan
May 31, 2011 4:03 pm

Ira Glickstein
This might set the adiabatic lapse rate in context.
1. Start with the Sun heating the Earth surface (Average 15C).
2. Air molecules hitting the surface leave with the characteristic temperature of the surface.
3. Pick one air molecule moving vertically without colliding with others as it illustrates the energy interchange.
4. Convert air molecules KE (3kT/2) into PE as it works against gravity also involving PV expansion of gas formula.
5. This gives you the adiabatic lapse rate.
6. Exactly the same result is found by thermodynamics = -g/Cp or – 9.8K/km This formula and its thermodynamic calculation is an accepted part of serious climate science.
All the energy comes from the Sun.(bottom up approach)
All energy accounted for.
All this I knew before reading Postma
Now Postma’s contribution is to say that measured from space it appears that the effective radiating temperature is -18C and the effective average radiating altitude is 5km.
By picking the existing well known average lapse rate figure you arrive back at 1.
All Postma says is that the space calculations match up with the observed surface temperature of 15C.
You can dispute Postma’s analysis that the average effective radiating level is around 5km but as far as I know nobody disputes this point.

Zeke the Sneak
May 31, 2011 4:45 pm

Why would Dr. Glickston consider a “carbon tax” to discourage fossil fuel use and to “change behavior,” at a time food prices are already rising as much as 36% above last year’s prices, and at a time when Americans are paying $1,000 per year more for gas at $4/gal., and at a time when unemployment remains at 10%?
It appears on the face of the argument that this kind of economic punishment is not enough, and that further economic distress is necessary to satisfy the green calls for a “reduced carbon footprint.”

May 31, 2011 4:50 pm

“I favored Ethanol when it was first approved for special subsidy, but I was wrong.”
Don’t be too quick to dismiss the benifits of “Ethanol”. It helps keep conventional, non electric cars on the road and in high production rather than increasing the manufacture and use of electric cars. We can always go back to pure gas after the warming that was supposed to take place due to “global warming” doesn’t occur.
If politicians didn’t have “Ethanol” they might have had much higher subsidies for electric cars, which can not easily be converted to run on conventional gas.

Alcheson
May 31, 2011 5:23 pm

I STRONGLY disagree with the carbon tax. The amount of warming produced by additional CO2 appears to be only miniscule as the feeback mechanisms, especially clouds, appear to be negative meaning the temperature rise to CO2 is even less than without feedbacks at all. It would be much better to use shale, natural gas and especially coal to make energy CHEAP again. There is plenty of these fuels available here in the US for well over 100 years, afterall the US has the largest reserve of fossil fuels of any nation on the planet. We should also invest heavily into fusion energy research as that is the ultimate energy supply. We have made great strides in fusion energy research already, with more effort we can get there before 2100, well before we run out of fossil fuels.
In the mean time, we need inexpensive and abundant energy to grow our economy and raise the standard of living for everyone. It would be much cheaper to adapt to the small temperature increase due to CO2. So I say….. NO NEW TAXES! Increased taxes is absolutely the WRONG way to go.

izen
May 31, 2011 5:23 pm

@- Dr A Burns says:
May 31, 2011 at 2:33 pm
“There is no evidence that recent CO2 increases (or temp increases) have been caused by man. It is possible they have been caused by the warming since the LIA. ”
Actually the recent CO2 increase has a clear fingerprint of its human origins in the change in isotopic ratios of the atmospheric carbon. The fall in C14 and C13 percentages show that the additional CO2 has come from fossil fuels. To attribute the rise to “the warming since the LIA ” would require a physical process that would release the required amount of extra CO2 from biological sources. No such process is known, and certainly not one which would exclude all C14.
It also begs the question; WHAT CAUSED the warming since the LIA ?
If you attribute it all to changes in the solar energy output then climate sensitivity must be quite high, with a significant temperature change for a small increase in Watts/m2. That would seem to refute the claim that negative feedbacks suppress/negate any warming effect of extra energy at the surface.
“You have already pointed out that CO2 increases are an EFFECT of warming, not a CAUSE.”
Its both.
That is the nature of positive feedbacks.
Because the positive feedback gives diminishing ‘returns’ (the CO2 effect is logarithmic and energy emissions rise proportionately to the fourth power of the temperature in Kelvins) it can never be a ‘runaway’ positive feedback.
“It is impossible to claim to what extent, if any, additional CO2 output by man would have on global temperatures. In THEORY, you might claim some effect of an indeterminable magnitude but in practice, this has not been established.”
It is entirely possible to calculate from the basic THEORY what the range of possible effects might be from the additional CO2 from man.
In practice those predictions can be compared with the observed climate – and the anthropogenic CO2 theory has been established as the best explanation we have of the continued warming from the LIA after the rise in solar output and drop in volcanic activity have ceased to be a credible cause.

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