Breaking: Mann and Wahl have responded. See updates below.
3/9 12:45 PM Pacific Time. This story is now updated to be consistent with Mann and Wahl’s response:
By Steven Mosher
and charles the moderator
Sources confirm that a federal inspector has questioned Eugene Wahl and Wahl has confirmed that Mann asked [forwarded] him [a request] to delete emails. Wahl has also informed the inspector that he did delete emails as the result of this request.
There are times during the course of Climategate when you feel like you are in a twilight zone episode, especially the kind where the ambiguous meaning of terms plays a critical role, like “To Serve Man”.
That episode is apt because of the central role trust plays and because of the role puzzle solvers play in uncovering that the do-gooder aliens cannot be trusted. “Serving”, of course, has now taken on new meanings, as in “you got served” or pwned. With the release of the news that Mann successfully [forwarded instructions] instructed [to] Wahl to delete emails, it’s clear that Mann got served or pwned by Wahl; but more importantly, he got served or assisted by Dr. Pell, Dr. Scaroni, Dr Brune, and Dr. Foley. Who are they? They are the Penn State team who served Dr. Mann by purporting to exonerate him in the Penn State inquiry, despite Mann’s own non-responsive response to a key question being on its face evasive, and begging followup questions. Regardless, Mann’s non-answer did not even purport to support their conclusion about his actions. In short, they covered for him.
The puzzle begins back in 2006. Keith Briffa the author of chapter 6 in the 4th Assessment Report of the IPCC (AR4) is struggling under the directive of review editor Johnathan Overpeck, who has encouraged him to come up with something “more compelling than the Hockey Stick”, that iconic symbol of Global warming created by Michael Mann in the third assessment report.
Briffa is struggling with the comments and suggestions of a particular reviewer who we now know was Steve McIntyre, the citizen scientist who has been dogging Mann for several years. In what appears to be violation of IPCC rules Briffa writes to Eugene Wahl asking for assistance in answering McIntyre’s comments. More important than this communication being apparently at odds with IPCC directives, is that Briffa is asking Wahl to comment on McIntyre’s work, a process that is clearly supposed to take place in peer reviewed literature. Wahl and McIntyre had both been critical of each other’s work and such disputes are most fairly handled by independent third parties and not by the disputants themselves.
In mid 2006 the following exchange occurs between Briffa and Eugene Wahl:
From: Keith Briffa [mailto:k.briffa@xxxxxxxxx.xxx]
Sent: Tue 7/18/2006 10:20 AM
To: Wahl, Eugene R
Subject: confidential
Gene
I am taking the liberty (confidentially) to send you a copy of the reviewers[McIntyre’s] comments (please keep these to yourself) of the last IPCC draft chapter. I am concerned that I am not as objective as perhaps I should be and would appreciate your take on the comments from number 6-737 onwards , that relate to your reassessment of the Mann et al work. I have to consider whether the current text is fair or whether I should change things in the light of the sceptic comments. In practise this brief version has evolved and there is little scope for additional text , but I must put on record responses to these comments – any confidential help , opinions are appreciated . I have only days now to complete this revision and response
Wahl responds
Thoughts and perspective concerning the reviewer’s comments per se. These are coded in blue and are in the “Notes” column between pages 103 and 122 inclusive. It got to the point that I could not be exhaustive, given the very lengthy set of review thoughts, so I am also attaching a review article Caspar [Ammann] and I plan to submit to Climatic Change in the next few days….Please note that this Ammann-Wahl text is sent strictly confidentially — it should not be cited or mentioned in any form, and MUST not be transmitted without permission. However, I am more than happy to send it for your use, because it succinctly summarizes what we have found on all the issues that have come up re: MBH. As you can see, we agree at some level with some of the criticisms raised by MM [McIntyre] and others, but we do not find that they invalidate MBH in any substantial way.
Briffa responds
Gene
here is where I am up to now with my responses (still a load to do) you can see that I have “borrowed (stolen)” from 2 of your responses in a significant degree – please assure me that this OK (and will not later be obvious) hopefully.You will get the whole text(confidentially again ) soon. You could also see that I hope to be fair to Mike[Mann] – but he can be a little unbalanced in his remarks sometime – and I have had to disagree with his interpretations of some issues also. Please do not pass these on to anyone at all.
Keith
Wahl responds, jumping into the “divergence” problem which has come to be known as the “hide the decline” problem.
Hi Keith:
Here is the text with my comments. I will go over the “stolen” parts (highlighted in blue outline) for a final time tomorrow morning, but I wanted to get this to you ASAP. The main new point I have to make is added in bold/blue font on pp. 101-103. I question the way the response to the comment there is currently worded, as it seems to imply that the divergence issue really does invalidate any dendro-based reconstructions before about 1850–which I imagine is not what you would like to say. I give a series of arguments against this as a general conclusion. Maybe I got over-bold in doing so, as in my point (1) I’m examining issues that are at the very core of your expertise! Excuse me that one, but I decided to jump in anyway. Let me know if I got it wrong in any way!
Briffa responds
First Gene – let me say that I never intended that you should spend so much time on this – though I really appreciate your take on these points. The one you highlight here – correctly warns me that in succumbing to the temptation to be lazy in the sense of the brief answer that I have provided – I do give an implied endorsement of the sense of the whole comment. This is not, of course what I intended. I simply meant to agree that some reference to the “divergence” issue was necessitated . I will revise the reply to say briefly that I do not agree with the interpretation of the reviewer. I am attaching what I have done (see blue highlighting) to the section in response to comments (including the addition of the needed extra section on the “tree-ring issues” called for by several people). I have had no feedback yet on this as it has not been generally circulated , but thought you might like to see it. PLEASE REMEMBER that this is “for your eyes only ” . Please do NOT feel that I am asking /expecting you to go through this in any detail – but given the trouble you have taken,I thought it reasonable to give you a private look. Cheers
Keith
So, Briffa writes confidentially to Wahl for help and Wahl assists him by passing a copy of a paper that has yet to be published. The aim is to answer concerns that McIntyre as reviewer has raised. Wahl and Amman’s words are incorporated in the response to McIntyre with the hope that no one will ever notice.
Two years later, someone does notice. It’s May 24th 2008, Steve McIntyre, climate science puzzle solver, is reading the reviewer comments to chapter 6 of AR4 written in 2006. In the course of reviewing Briffa’s replies to him, McIntyre notes something peculiar. Briffa’s replies, written in 2006, seemed to plagiarize an unpublished paper by Casper Amman and Eugene Wahl published in 2007. That is, in 2006 Briffa was repeating the argument of a paper that was not published until 2007. How could Briffa plagiarize an article that hadn’t been published? Why would he repeat the arguments almost word for word? Who was feeding Briffa his arguments? How was Briffa doing this if all communication with the authors had to be part of the official record?
At the time, in May of 2008, McIntyre assumed that Briffa was getting information from Casper Ammann since Ammann was listed as a contributing author to chapter 6. It did not occur to McIntyre that Wahl was the source of the text. Thanks to the individual who liberated the Climategate emails, we now know that Wahl was the source of that text. The Climategate emails, quoted above, show Briffa and Wahl exchanging emails about the way McIntyre’s arguments should be handled. Confidentially, outside the process of the IPCC which is designed to capture reviewer objections and authors’ responses to those objections. Wahl is brought in by Briffa to defend his own work. And defend it with literature that has not been published yet.
At the same time in 2008, across the ocean, David Holland had been reading McIntyre’s work and he had issued an FOIA request to the Climatic Research Unit–CRU. That FOIA request covered all correspondence coming in and out of CRU relative to chapter 6 of AR4. The hunt for the source that was feeding Briffa was on, with Holland leading the charge. At CRU, FOIA officer Palmer instructs the team that they must do everything “by the book” because Holland will most certainly appeal a rejection letter.
In that context, Jones writes the famous email to Mann. Jones requests that Mann delete his emails and he requests that Mann contact Wahl and have Wahl delete his emails. Is Jones covering his bases in case of an appeal? Is he covering his bases against an FOIA request that might be served on Mann and Wahl in the US? In any case, he appears to be conspiring with others to deny Holland his FOIA rights.
Mike,
Can you delete any emails you may have had with Keith re AR4? Keith will do likewise. He’s not in at the moment – minor family crisis Can you also email Gene and get him to do the same? I don’t have his new email address.We will be getting Caspar to do likewise. I see that CA claim they discovered the 1945 problem in the Nature paper
Mann responds that he will contact Wahl ASAP, which he does.
Hi Phil,
laughable that CA would claim to have discovered the problem. They would have run off to the Wall Street Journal for an exclusive were that to have been true. I’ll contact Gene about this ASAP. His new email is: generwahl@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
talk to you later,
mike
As Wahl told the investigators in 2011, Mann contacted [forwarded the email from Jones requesting deletion to] him and Wahl deleted his mails.
In 2010, in an effort to clear Mann of any wrong doing, a committee of inquiry was set up at Penn State. We now know that committee failed miserably. They failed for many reasons, but the Wahl admission is the starkest example.
Here is one allegation the committee investigated:
Allegation 2: Did you engage in, or participate in, directly or indirectly, any actions with the intent to delete, conceal or otherwise destroy emails, information and/or data, related to AR4, as suggested by Phil Jones?
Finding 2. After careful consideration of all the evidence and relevant materials, the inquiry committee finding is that there exists no credible evidence that Dr. Mann had ever engaged in, or participated in, directly or indirectly, any actions with intent to delete, conceal or otherwise destroy emails, information and/or data related to AR4, as suggested by Dr. Phil Jones. Dr. Mann has stated that he did not delete emails in response to Dr. Jones’ request. Further, Dr. Mann produced upon request a full archive of his emails in and around the time of the preparation of AR4. The archive contained e-mails related to AR4.
The committee found this because they apparently failed to understand Mann’s reply. As they reported:
He [Mann] explained that he never deleted emails at the behest of any other scientist, specifically including Dr. Phil Jones, and that he never withheld data with the intention of obstructing science; …
What can we make of this? Mann was apparently asked the question: “Did you engage in or participate in, directly or indirectly, any actions with the intent to delete emails.”
And it seems clear he only answered half of the question, leaving the unanswered second part dangling: did you contact anyone or otherwise ‘indirectly’ participate in deleting records? This either did not strike, or did not interest, the Penn State ‘investigators’. This despite that Mann, it appears, answered “carefully” and incompletely. He only answered that he hadn’t deleted emails. He never directly denies partaking, indirectly, in the deletion of Wahl’s emails. He apparently withheld the information that he had asked [forwarded the request to] Wahl to delete emails.
Is this a lie? Not directly. It’s more what Wikipedia would describe as “Careful Speaking”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie
Careful speaking is distinct from the above in that the speaker wishes to avoid imparting certain information or admitting certain facts and, additionally, does not want to ‘lie’ when doing so. Careful speaking involves using carefully-phrased statements to give a ‘half-answer’: one that does not actually ‘answer’ the question, but still provides an appropriate (and accurate) answer based on that question. As with ‘misleading’, below, ‘careful speaking’ is not outright lying.
So why did the inquiry, stocked with Mann’s fellow professors, fail to ask good follow up questions? We really do not know because we don’t have access to the transcript of their interview with Mann. Did he intend to deceive? Or did he just speak “carefully?” It would seem that the actual transcript of the questions and answers should be published. Perhaps Congress should serve the members of the inquiry with a subpoena. That would allow people to decide if Mann lied or if he just spoke carefully.
And there are a few more questions we need to ask. Mann claims that he never deleted the emails. But he asked [forwarded Jones’s request to] Wahl to delete the emails. This makes no sense. It makes no sense that Mann would participate in a cover up by passing along a message to another participant of that cover-up downstream and not delete emails himself. It defies any logical reconstruction of events. Why would Mann ask [forward a request to] Wahl to do something that he himself would not do? We also know from the inquiry that Mann delivered emails to the inquiry. From that evidence and his testimony they concluded that he deleted no emails. This does not compute. [S.M: See update below for a possible explanation ]
Jones requested of Mann: Can you delete any emails you may have had with Keith re AR4?
The inquiry stated: The archive contained e-mails related to AR4. (Hmm…more “Careful Speaking”?)
Did the inquiry find any emails of Mann communicating with Briffa re AR4 or just some emails related to AR4?
Did Mann turn over all the emails he wrote/received or only those he didn’t delete?
Was the email from Phil Jones requesting deletion among the emails Mann delivered to the inquiry?
Did the IT staff serve Mann, by letting him know that what he initially attempted to delete were in fact retained on the University mail server?
Did Mann turn over emails to the inquiry that he had previously deleted, deleted and then recovered with the help of some sympathetic University IT staff?
These questions need to be asked.
Perhaps Congress should serve Mann a subpoena.
Perhaps, the IG, the NSF, or some other suitable independent third party can investigate this with people who know how to watch for the pea under the thimble, and not be mislead by “Careful Speaking”.
=================================================================
UPDATES:
Steve McIntyre at Climate Audit has the goods in this: Wahl Transcript Excerpt
Chris Horner at DailyCaller also has a review: Penn State whitewashed ClimateGate
In fact, Chris Horner and the Competitive Enterprise Institute were instrumental in efforts over a year to get this and other forthcoming FOIA info into the public domain. – Anthony
UPDATE 3/9 12PM Mann and Wahl have responded see here.
Excerpt:
Mann, reached on vacation in Hawaii, said the stories yesterday were “libelous” and false. “They’re spreading a lie about me,” he said of the Web sites. “This has been known for a year and a half that all I did was forward Phil’s e-mail to Eugene.” Asked why he sent the e-mail to his colleague, Mann said, “I felt Eugene Wahl had to be aware of this e-mail … it could be used against him. I didn’t delete any e-mails and nor did I tell Wahl to delete any e-mails.” Why didn’t Mann call Wahl to discuss the odd request? “I was so busy. It’s much easier to e-mail somebody. No where did I approve of the instruction to destroy e-mails.”
Also at the above link, Wahl has now publicly stated that he did in fact delete emails in response to the request forwarded to him by Mann, rendering moot our need to wait for our original sources to confirm this story.
UPDATE: 3/9 6PM Chris Horner, whose story at the Daily Caller prompted a fair amount of outrage from AGW proponents, has responded to Wahl and Mann here
==========================================================
h/t SF Grand Master, Damon Knight, who was the author of the original short story this Twilight Zone episode was based upon.
Jones specifically asked Mann to delete emails with Briffa with regard to AR4. Mann claims that he deleted no mails. This is entirely possible, especially if there were no mails fitting the description. Canvasing the Climategate mails, we can only find a few mails between Briffa and Mann related to Ar4. If there were few or no mails to delete, then it does make sense that Mann could have passed the instruct to delete onto Wahl, without deleting mails himself. S. Mosher.

the other weird thing is mann says he was too busy, so he just forwarded the mail without comment
But he had time to write Jones and say
” I’ll contact Gene about this ASAP. His new email is: generwahl@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
talk to you later,
mike”
Weird. I dont know what to make of this.
He doesnt add a little note to say ” gene protect yourself” he writes to Jones, then he forwards the mail, without comment. and then he’s shocked that Wahl deleted mails?
Dude owes wahl an apology.
J. Felton says:
March 9, 2011 at 6:19 pm
Re “Amused said
” I wonder that some have not taken legal action against the perpetrators o these slanders as Andrew Weaver did in Canada. He silenced a group of prolific deniers.””
I liked the earlier part where A Weaver suggested that some apparent burglary in his building was related to his vital work… coincidentally, just in time to distract from the breaking Climategate story.
Nothing but silence on that story ever since as far as I know. But that Climategate thing seems to have legs.
Prof. Mann’s response to Chris Horner’s blameless article included:
That is, of course, a despicable smear that, more than anything else, speaks to the depths of dishonesty and the inept, fallacious reasoning of professional climate-change propagandists such as Prof. Mann.
Steven Mosher says:
March 9, 2011 at 10:32 pm
“I’ll contact Gene about this ASAP. His new email is: generwahl@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
talk to you later,
mike”
I’m just trying to figure out why Mike responds in this way to Jones request that mike ask Wahl to delete mails?
What is mikes intent? he now says he passed the message on because he thought gene had a right to see it. what is the ASAP about?”
How’s this plot?
Mann knows that forwarding that message is ethically and professionally wrong because of its contents. He doesn’t really want to send it because that leaves his fingerprints. So the ASAP was a stall, intended to prompt Jones to send Wahl that message directly – which is why he sent him his new email address.
But Jones knew what it meant too, and didn’t bite. So Mann had to take that risk for the Team and send it. Just imagine how much simpler Mann’s life would be if he had not sent it and Jones had?
Or maybe Jones would have sent it to both Mann and Wahl if he had the latter’s new email address?
Or maybe Mann really did just forward that email to protect Wahl, all in the interests of national security or something like that.
In any event, here we are now, thanks to Climategate.
Nick said
“Hey,Mosh,haven’t you got something more useful to do with your time?
”
You might also want to ask Mann and Co. that. Surely they have better things to do on taxpayer time then to lie and commit scientific fraud in order to justify their own overpaid salaries.
Steven Mosher says:
March 9, 2011 at 10:56 pm
“the other weird thing is mann says he was too busy, so he just forwarded the mail without comment”
Mann is minimizing his fingerprints on it.
Steven Mosher says:
March 9, 2011 at 10:56 pm
In a post above I used the word complicit.
Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.
Fortunately we have persons such as yourself willing to use their cunning arts to unpick this web of deceit.
I may not concur with your views or you with mine but in the end we are looking for the same thing, the truth in as much as it can exist.
What that truth might be remains obscure because we simply do not know enough about the climate system or the great natural forces which drive it.
Given it’s complexity we may never know.
But we do know about how people traduce fashionable supposition for their own ends. When we see it.
But unpicking the details is a slow process and as likely or not the mountebanks will have left town before it can be finished.
Which is not to say that taking apart their pseudo scientific charlatanism is not worthwhile: it is, if we didn’t we would still be back in the dark ages.
Kindest Regards
Al Gored said
In response to J. Felton
” I liked the earlier part where A Weaver suggested that some apparent burglary in his building was related to his vital work… coincidentally, just in time to distract from the breaking Climategate story.”
Right again.
Not trying to be O/T here, but Weaver assumed that a break-in in his building must be the work of the oil industry out to silence him and steal his ” work.” ( Probably just several hundred hours worth of playing Solitaire on Windows ’95.)
He neglected to mention that 5 other buildings in the complex that night were broken into, and had property stolen, and not one of them had to do with him. Arrogant, really.
Steven Mosher says:
March 9, 2011 at 10:56 pm
” I’ll contact Gene about this ASAP. His new email is: generwahl@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
talk to you later,
mike”
Maybe he contacted him by phone? That would explain the lack of comments added to the email he forwarded.
conspired past tense:
Make secret plans jointly to commit an unlawful or harmful act
-they conspired against him
-they deny conspiring to defraud the Internal Revenue Service
(of events or circumstances) Seem to be working together to bring about a particular result, typically to someone’s detriment
-everything conspires to exacerbate the situation
Was it secret – yes.
Did they plan jointly – (plan: Decide on and arrange in advance) they certainly acted together and communicated arrangements for future actions
Was it unlawful – it would appear to be unlawful
On the facts available, it does seem that the actions fit the dictionary definition of a conspiracy.
“In the criminal law, a conspiracy is an agreement between two or more persons to break the law at some time in the future, and, in some cases, with at least one overt act in furtherance of that agreement.”
Agreement: 1. the act of agreeing or of coming to a mutual arrangement. 2.the state of being in accord. 3. an arrangement that is accepted by all parties to a transaction.
Was it a mutual arrangement? It’s hard not to interpret it that way. Were they in accord? There’s not the slightest hint that they weren’t. Was it an arrangement accepted by all the parties? To pass on an instruction from someone to commit what is seems to be a criminal act without explicitly condemning it or without appearing to have any context such as previous discussions condemning it, if those instructions were read and understood as Mann appears to be saying, then it does appear on the surface to be an acceptance of the instructions in email.
Obviously I’m not saying anyone actually committed a criminal conspiracy because I don’t know all the facts, but it does look very damning for all involved and if I had to rely solely on the public evidence available to me at this time, based on the dictionary definitions and simple definition of criminal conspiracy I located and I had to produce a verdict, then there’s only one verdict I personally could reach.
The committee found this because they apparently failed to understand Mann’s reply. As they reported:
“He [Mann] explained that he never deleted emails at the behest of any other scientist, specifically including Dr. Phil Jones, and that he never withheld data with the intention of obstructing science; …”
Somewhat related anecdote: when the Lewinski affair was heating up on the broadcast airways, Bill Clinton’s real-time, national tv response to Jim Lehrer’s question as to whether Bill was having any kind of sexual affair with Lewinsky was so obviously devious from his groundbreaking use and emphasis of “is” in his apparently pre-fabbed response to any such question, that I almost became estatic from a fit of instantaneous sarcasm, because it also sounded really funny .
Clinton’s response was something like, “There is no sex going on between me and Ms. Lewinski.” I’m thinking, yeah, unless it’s invisible to me from where I sit watching you, you moron. It was so bizarre that it looked like Lehrer was at least fairly well dumbfounded and didn’t know how to follow it up, which I could understand, but it clearly didn’t answer Lehrer’s question.
Sigh, I have gone through ALL comments here plus at RC, CA, and BH about the ‘Delete Emails on AR4’ events to date including the latest statements from some of the participants in the ‘Delete Emails on AR4’ episode of ‘Climategate’ .
Here are my categorizations and my comments on the possible range of conducts in the ‘Delete Emails on AR4′ episode of ‘Climategate’.
Academic Conduct (PSU) – The original PSU investigation of ‘Climategate’ is now shown to be significantly more inadequate than previously thought. It will take the State of Pennsylvania attorney general and/or Federal pressure on PSU to re-open the investigation. Most likely scenario for reopening the investigation is escalation of the ‘Climategate’ noise level in Congress which may result in enough pressure for some additional PSU investigative action. I do not see a possibility for the general international scientific community rising up to press for any academic (PSU) re-investigation; the scientific community does not appear to self-correct science by that process. However, the very open discussion on the internet enhances the possibility of enough concern being publically shown to stimulate academia (PSU) into additional action.
Scientific Conduct (independent of affiliations) – To me the question of scientific conduct is the most insidious aspect of the whole (up to now) ‘Delete Emails on AR4’ episode of ‘Climategate’. In the greater view, any perception of lack of integrity by a group of scientists has a more profound impact than just the reputation of a university or upholding the Laws of a country or state. We are considering the reputation of science now. I personally am disappointed so far by the scientific community’s response. However, maybe I am just too impatient with the process of scientific self-correction; me having mostly a background in the relatively quick and efficiently adapting environment of technical corporate America.
IPCC Protocol Conduct – There appears to me to be reasonable doubt that IPCC protocol was followed by the ‘Delete Emails on AR4’ participants in the circumstances preceding, during and following the ‘Delete Emails on AR4’. All of the participants appear to have had, at the least, knowledge of a lack of conformity to IPCC protocols by their colleagues. Do they maintain that not one of them did anything about it to IPCC leadership? I do not know what they did as a result of this knowledge, but if they did nothing then all of their behavior is, at the very least, lacking in any integrity and bordering on much more serious issues (?collusion?). Before I consider the question of misconduct, I will wait for them to respond to the question, “Did any of you inform the IPCC leadership that protocols where not being followed by your colleagues and if so who in IPCC leadership did you tell and where is your evidence that you did inform IPCC leadership?”
Legal Conduct (USA Law)– I know there is a lot of discussion on whether the pertinent FOIA in UK applies legally to a citizen & resident of USA, and also discussion that there may not have been any pertinent US FOIA requests pending on USA participants in the ‘Delete Emails on AR4’ episode. Also, PSU denied FOI requests on Mann if I recall, that is dead ended. FOI approach looks inconclusive to me, so my I cannot say there was legal misconduct. But there is another approach to possible legal action that can be probed (if it hasn’t already been); the USA funds the IPCC. The USA Federal Government could theoretically conditionally defund the IPCC until allegations of IPCC misconduct are resolved by an independent (of IPCC) investigation. One (of the several) areas of the investigation can be the ‘Delete Emails on AR4’ episode of ‘Climategate’. If it is found that a USA citizen was not following the IPCC protocols, then evaluation of legal action could be considered.
Legal Conduct (British Law) – Looks like nothing here, even if somehow a USA scientist could be held accountable for a UK FOI violation, the statute of limitation period has passed . . . moving on.
Legal Conduct (Int’l Law)– ? ? ? . . . no comment. I will wait for input . . . moving on.
Employee Conduct – This may be too subtle to be of value. A professor is an academic but is also an employee. If a professor is investigated by a USA public university as an academic, does that mean that person is also at the same time, investigated in her/his capacity as an employee of a government sponsored university? Is another investigation warranted on the employee level instead of academic level? Again maybe this is mute.
Mosh and CTM, again thanks for the setting up this lively and informative discussion.
John
Reply: Moot? not mute? ~ ctm
Ed Waage says: (March 9, 2011 at 10:06 pm)
Mann and three others have just published an opinion piece in the Politico …
And a surprisingly weak piece it is too, Ed. They surely could have used the space better for their purpose. Disappointing they can’t even do basic PR; or even roar loudly…
Steven Mosher says:
March 9, 2011 at 10:32 pm
“I’ll contact Gene about this ASAP.”
“what is the ASAP about?”
To make sure he doesn’t delete any emails as soon as possible.
You see Steve it’s the new-doublespeak. Here is a little training video that may help.
ctm,
You actually read my long winded diatribes at that level? WOW.
Probably moot work better.
Thanks, you are a gem (?in the rough?).
You got the nightshift! It is 4 pm in the afternoon here in Taipei.
John
Reply: I skim for tone, I’m good a skimming. Sometimes what one writes actually interests me to the point of a careful read. Yours did. Hey everybody, I know it appears I’ve come out of retirement, but this past few days have actually helped me determine that this level of participation takes a serious toll on my life, so now that I have totally ruined my week, with these kinda sorta exciting events. Answering emails at 5 am, and being unable to sleep, I’m going to ride off into the sunset for an indeterminate time. Ciao, Adios, Adieu, Bye, Atalogo, Auf Vedersehen, Shalom. I’m so glad we had this time together, just to laugh and maybe sing a song…. ~ ctm
You can tell it’s bad for the warmista’s when there running round using the denial insult.
Is the default posistion for the elite in our society dishonesty now? (Please be aware I’m not calling the Team elite’s just the stupid people in charge that will completely ignore this as the blame will simply be pushed onto Jones as they know the UK goverment will do nothing about it).
The MSM seems to be quiet?
Reply: Moot? not mute? ~ ctm
Caution here, Charles; seems to be a lot of “mute” going on in the whole firestorm, so perhaps ..
Steven Mosher says:
March 9, 2011 at 10:56 pm
the other weird thing is mann says he was too busy, so he just forwarded the mail without comment
But he had time to write Jones and say” I’ll contact Gene about this ASAP. His new email is: generwahl@xxxxxxxxx.xxx talk to you later, mike”>>>
The email forwarded without comment just stands out like a sore thumb. It doesn’t seem natural to have communicated in that fashion unless there was additional communication to go with it that we haven’t seen. Something like:
Ring. Ring. “Hello?”
“Gene, you at your computer? I’m about to forward something to you…”
Or an exchange of emails in which Mann tells Wahl what Jones asked him to do, and Wahl expresses disbelief that Jones would ask such a thing, followed by the “forward incident”.
There simply must be additional context for the communication to make sense. Speaking of which, this one keeps going through my mind as well:
Dr Mann, did you delete any emails?
No!
Did you hide them instead by moving them someplace? Encrypt them? Put them in a file system marked as something else? Unplug the computer trhey are on and hide it in a closet? Put the hard drive through a shredder which would be shredding, not deleting?
lock them all up and loose the key
Didn’t we have people arguing recently that calling a statement “libelous” was actually a threat to sue?
Or is that only if a sceptic does it?
The legal aspect is largely immaterial. The question is, should the world buy a used and battered hockey stick from this Mann and his fellow peddlars of doom and hobble their economies to no purpose?
Seems to me large sections of it already decided they’re not going to. How long will the governments of the E.U. and Australia continue to hold out against the staringly obvious?
Time will tell.
@ctm
It’s been good to see you back for a while. You should know some of us lurkers really do enjoy your light moderation touch. Recharge your batteries and come back soon.
“tallbloke says:
March 10, 2011 at 1:12 am”
Gillard (Labour) is an ex-POME, and a saunch strongly left leaning politician. Abbot (Liberal) is not well respected it appears and between wanting some form of “tax to control climate” and stating “climate change” is crap, he’s just reacting what he thinks will put him into power. Turnbull (Liberal – Ejected as Liberal leader for supporting an ETS, used to work for Goldman Sachs, made lots of money too, so he’s real keen on the alarmism to support a “price on carbon” and/or an ETS. The independents ignored their electorates, thus comitting political suicide, are not openly supporting a “carbon tax”, but, of course, will to stay in power with . Brown (The Greens) is also keen to introduce an unlimited revenue stream, reduce the population (I guess expect them) etc. So I won’t hold out much hope our Australian “leaders” will take note of the obvious. Bit like rabbits fronzen in the headlights of a car. Too late!
Sweet. I imagine this really ruined Mann’s Hawaiian vacation too. Criminals who push junk science as a means to sweeping public policy change don’t deserve Hawaiian vacations.
Ctm- Don’t go! You are too good at what you do!
Hit the nail on the head and drove it home!