Breaking: Mann and Wahl have responded. See updates below.
3/9 12:45 PM Pacific Time. This story is now updated to be consistent with Mann and Wahl’s response:
By Steven Mosher
and charles the moderator
Sources confirm that a federal inspector has questioned Eugene Wahl and Wahl has confirmed that Mann asked [forwarded] him [a request] to delete emails. Wahl has also informed the inspector that he did delete emails as the result of this request.
There are times during the course of Climategate when you feel like you are in a twilight zone episode, especially the kind where the ambiguous meaning of terms plays a critical role, like “To Serve Man”.
That episode is apt because of the central role trust plays and because of the role puzzle solvers play in uncovering that the do-gooder aliens cannot be trusted. “Serving”, of course, has now taken on new meanings, as in “you got served” or pwned. With the release of the news that Mann successfully [forwarded instructions] instructed [to] Wahl to delete emails, it’s clear that Mann got served or pwned by Wahl; but more importantly, he got served or assisted by Dr. Pell, Dr. Scaroni, Dr Brune, and Dr. Foley. Who are they? They are the Penn State team who served Dr. Mann by purporting to exonerate him in the Penn State inquiry, despite Mann’s own non-responsive response to a key question being on its face evasive, and begging followup questions. Regardless, Mann’s non-answer did not even purport to support their conclusion about his actions. In short, they covered for him.
The puzzle begins back in 2006. Keith Briffa the author of chapter 6 in the 4th Assessment Report of the IPCC (AR4) is struggling under the directive of review editor Johnathan Overpeck, who has encouraged him to come up with something “more compelling than the Hockey Stick”, that iconic symbol of Global warming created by Michael Mann in the third assessment report.
Briffa is struggling with the comments and suggestions of a particular reviewer who we now know was Steve McIntyre, the citizen scientist who has been dogging Mann for several years. In what appears to be violation of IPCC rules Briffa writes to Eugene Wahl asking for assistance in answering McIntyre’s comments. More important than this communication being apparently at odds with IPCC directives, is that Briffa is asking Wahl to comment on McIntyre’s work, a process that is clearly supposed to take place in peer reviewed literature. Wahl and McIntyre had both been critical of each other’s work and such disputes are most fairly handled by independent third parties and not by the disputants themselves.
In mid 2006 the following exchange occurs between Briffa and Eugene Wahl:
From: Keith Briffa [mailto:k.briffa@xxxxxxxxx.xxx]
Sent: Tue 7/18/2006 10:20 AM
To: Wahl, Eugene R
Subject: confidential
Gene
I am taking the liberty (confidentially) to send you a copy of the reviewers[McIntyre’s] comments (please keep these to yourself) of the last IPCC draft chapter. I am concerned that I am not as objective as perhaps I should be and would appreciate your take on the comments from number 6-737 onwards , that relate to your reassessment of the Mann et al work. I have to consider whether the current text is fair or whether I should change things in the light of the sceptic comments. In practise this brief version has evolved and there is little scope for additional text , but I must put on record responses to these comments – any confidential help , opinions are appreciated . I have only days now to complete this revision and response
Wahl responds
Thoughts and perspective concerning the reviewer’s comments per se. These are coded in blue and are in the “Notes” column between pages 103 and 122 inclusive. It got to the point that I could not be exhaustive, given the very lengthy set of review thoughts, so I am also attaching a review article Caspar [Ammann] and I plan to submit to Climatic Change in the next few days….Please note that this Ammann-Wahl text is sent strictly confidentially — it should not be cited or mentioned in any form, and MUST not be transmitted without permission. However, I am more than happy to send it for your use, because it succinctly summarizes what we have found on all the issues that have come up re: MBH. As you can see, we agree at some level with some of the criticisms raised by MM [McIntyre] and others, but we do not find that they invalidate MBH in any substantial way.
Briffa responds
Gene
here is where I am up to now with my responses (still a load to do) you can see that I have “borrowed (stolen)” from 2 of your responses in a significant degree – please assure me that this OK (and will not later be obvious) hopefully.You will get the whole text(confidentially again ) soon. You could also see that I hope to be fair to Mike[Mann] – but he can be a little unbalanced in his remarks sometime – and I have had to disagree with his interpretations of some issues also. Please do not pass these on to anyone at all.
Keith
Wahl responds, jumping into the “divergence” problem which has come to be known as the “hide the decline” problem.
Hi Keith:
Here is the text with my comments. I will go over the “stolen” parts (highlighted in blue outline) for a final time tomorrow morning, but I wanted to get this to you ASAP. The main new point I have to make is added in bold/blue font on pp. 101-103. I question the way the response to the comment there is currently worded, as it seems to imply that the divergence issue really does invalidate any dendro-based reconstructions before about 1850–which I imagine is not what you would like to say. I give a series of arguments against this as a general conclusion. Maybe I got over-bold in doing so, as in my point (1) I’m examining issues that are at the very core of your expertise! Excuse me that one, but I decided to jump in anyway. Let me know if I got it wrong in any way!
Briffa responds
First Gene – let me say that I never intended that you should spend so much time on this – though I really appreciate your take on these points. The one you highlight here – correctly warns me that in succumbing to the temptation to be lazy in the sense of the brief answer that I have provided – I do give an implied endorsement of the sense of the whole comment. This is not, of course what I intended. I simply meant to agree that some reference to the “divergence” issue was necessitated . I will revise the reply to say briefly that I do not agree with the interpretation of the reviewer. I am attaching what I have done (see blue highlighting) to the section in response to comments (including the addition of the needed extra section on the “tree-ring issues” called for by several people). I have had no feedback yet on this as it has not been generally circulated , but thought you might like to see it. PLEASE REMEMBER that this is “for your eyes only ” . Please do NOT feel that I am asking /expecting you to go through this in any detail – but given the trouble you have taken,I thought it reasonable to give you a private look. Cheers
Keith
So, Briffa writes confidentially to Wahl for help and Wahl assists him by passing a copy of a paper that has yet to be published. The aim is to answer concerns that McIntyre as reviewer has raised. Wahl and Amman’s words are incorporated in the response to McIntyre with the hope that no one will ever notice.
Two years later, someone does notice. It’s May 24th 2008, Steve McIntyre, climate science puzzle solver, is reading the reviewer comments to chapter 6 of AR4 written in 2006. In the course of reviewing Briffa’s replies to him, McIntyre notes something peculiar. Briffa’s replies, written in 2006, seemed to plagiarize an unpublished paper by Casper Amman and Eugene Wahl published in 2007. That is, in 2006 Briffa was repeating the argument of a paper that was not published until 2007. How could Briffa plagiarize an article that hadn’t been published? Why would he repeat the arguments almost word for word? Who was feeding Briffa his arguments? How was Briffa doing this if all communication with the authors had to be part of the official record?
At the time, in May of 2008, McIntyre assumed that Briffa was getting information from Casper Ammann since Ammann was listed as a contributing author to chapter 6. It did not occur to McIntyre that Wahl was the source of the text. Thanks to the individual who liberated the Climategate emails, we now know that Wahl was the source of that text. The Climategate emails, quoted above, show Briffa and Wahl exchanging emails about the way McIntyre’s arguments should be handled. Confidentially, outside the process of the IPCC which is designed to capture reviewer objections and authors’ responses to those objections. Wahl is brought in by Briffa to defend his own work. And defend it with literature that has not been published yet.
At the same time in 2008, across the ocean, David Holland had been reading McIntyre’s work and he had issued an FOIA request to the Climatic Research Unit–CRU. That FOIA request covered all correspondence coming in and out of CRU relative to chapter 6 of AR4. The hunt for the source that was feeding Briffa was on, with Holland leading the charge. At CRU, FOIA officer Palmer instructs the team that they must do everything “by the book” because Holland will most certainly appeal a rejection letter.
In that context, Jones writes the famous email to Mann. Jones requests that Mann delete his emails and he requests that Mann contact Wahl and have Wahl delete his emails. Is Jones covering his bases in case of an appeal? Is he covering his bases against an FOIA request that might be served on Mann and Wahl in the US? In any case, he appears to be conspiring with others to deny Holland his FOIA rights.
Mike,
Can you delete any emails you may have had with Keith re AR4? Keith will do likewise. He’s not in at the moment – minor family crisis Can you also email Gene and get him to do the same? I don’t have his new email address.We will be getting Caspar to do likewise. I see that CA claim they discovered the 1945 problem in the Nature paper
Mann responds that he will contact Wahl ASAP, which he does.
Hi Phil,
laughable that CA would claim to have discovered the problem. They would have run off to the Wall Street Journal for an exclusive were that to have been true. I’ll contact Gene about this ASAP. His new email is: generwahl@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
talk to you later,
mike
As Wahl told the investigators in 2011, Mann contacted [forwarded the email from Jones requesting deletion to] him and Wahl deleted his mails.
In 2010, in an effort to clear Mann of any wrong doing, a committee of inquiry was set up at Penn State. We now know that committee failed miserably. They failed for many reasons, but the Wahl admission is the starkest example.
Here is one allegation the committee investigated:
Allegation 2: Did you engage in, or participate in, directly or indirectly, any actions with the intent to delete, conceal or otherwise destroy emails, information and/or data, related to AR4, as suggested by Phil Jones?
Finding 2. After careful consideration of all the evidence and relevant materials, the inquiry committee finding is that there exists no credible evidence that Dr. Mann had ever engaged in, or participated in, directly or indirectly, any actions with intent to delete, conceal or otherwise destroy emails, information and/or data related to AR4, as suggested by Dr. Phil Jones. Dr. Mann has stated that he did not delete emails in response to Dr. Jones’ request. Further, Dr. Mann produced upon request a full archive of his emails in and around the time of the preparation of AR4. The archive contained e-mails related to AR4.
The committee found this because they apparently failed to understand Mann’s reply. As they reported:
He [Mann] explained that he never deleted emails at the behest of any other scientist, specifically including Dr. Phil Jones, and that he never withheld data with the intention of obstructing science; …
What can we make of this? Mann was apparently asked the question: “Did you engage in or participate in, directly or indirectly, any actions with the intent to delete emails.”
And it seems clear he only answered half of the question, leaving the unanswered second part dangling: did you contact anyone or otherwise ‘indirectly’ participate in deleting records? This either did not strike, or did not interest, the Penn State ‘investigators’. This despite that Mann, it appears, answered “carefully” and incompletely. He only answered that he hadn’t deleted emails. He never directly denies partaking, indirectly, in the deletion of Wahl’s emails. He apparently withheld the information that he had asked [forwarded the request to] Wahl to delete emails.
Is this a lie? Not directly. It’s more what Wikipedia would describe as “Careful Speaking”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie
Careful speaking is distinct from the above in that the speaker wishes to avoid imparting certain information or admitting certain facts and, additionally, does not want to ‘lie’ when doing so. Careful speaking involves using carefully-phrased statements to give a ‘half-answer’: one that does not actually ‘answer’ the question, but still provides an appropriate (and accurate) answer based on that question. As with ‘misleading’, below, ‘careful speaking’ is not outright lying.
So why did the inquiry, stocked with Mann’s fellow professors, fail to ask good follow up questions? We really do not know because we don’t have access to the transcript of their interview with Mann. Did he intend to deceive? Or did he just speak “carefully?” It would seem that the actual transcript of the questions and answers should be published. Perhaps Congress should serve the members of the inquiry with a subpoena. That would allow people to decide if Mann lied or if he just spoke carefully.
And there are a few more questions we need to ask. Mann claims that he never deleted the emails. But he asked [forwarded Jones’s request to] Wahl to delete the emails. This makes no sense. It makes no sense that Mann would participate in a cover up by passing along a message to another participant of that cover-up downstream and not delete emails himself. It defies any logical reconstruction of events. Why would Mann ask [forward a request to] Wahl to do something that he himself would not do? We also know from the inquiry that Mann delivered emails to the inquiry. From that evidence and his testimony they concluded that he deleted no emails. This does not compute. [S.M: See update below for a possible explanation ]
Jones requested of Mann: Can you delete any emails you may have had with Keith re AR4?
The inquiry stated: The archive contained e-mails related to AR4. (Hmm…more “Careful Speaking”?)
Did the inquiry find any emails of Mann communicating with Briffa re AR4 or just some emails related to AR4?
Did Mann turn over all the emails he wrote/received or only those he didn’t delete?
Was the email from Phil Jones requesting deletion among the emails Mann delivered to the inquiry?
Did the IT staff serve Mann, by letting him know that what he initially attempted to delete were in fact retained on the University mail server?
Did Mann turn over emails to the inquiry that he had previously deleted, deleted and then recovered with the help of some sympathetic University IT staff?
These questions need to be asked.
Perhaps Congress should serve Mann a subpoena.
Perhaps, the IG, the NSF, or some other suitable independent third party can investigate this with people who know how to watch for the pea under the thimble, and not be mislead by “Careful Speaking”.
=================================================================
UPDATES:
Steve McIntyre at Climate Audit has the goods in this: Wahl Transcript Excerpt
Chris Horner at DailyCaller also has a review: Penn State whitewashed ClimateGate
In fact, Chris Horner and the Competitive Enterprise Institute were instrumental in efforts over a year to get this and other forthcoming FOIA info into the public domain. – Anthony
UPDATE 3/9 12PM Mann and Wahl have responded see here.
Excerpt:
Mann, reached on vacation in Hawaii, said the stories yesterday were “libelous” and false. “They’re spreading a lie about me,” he said of the Web sites. “This has been known for a year and a half that all I did was forward Phil’s e-mail to Eugene.” Asked why he sent the e-mail to his colleague, Mann said, “I felt Eugene Wahl had to be aware of this e-mail … it could be used against him. I didn’t delete any e-mails and nor did I tell Wahl to delete any e-mails.” Why didn’t Mann call Wahl to discuss the odd request? “I was so busy. It’s much easier to e-mail somebody. No where did I approve of the instruction to destroy e-mails.”
Also at the above link, Wahl has now publicly stated that he did in fact delete emails in response to the request forwarded to him by Mann, rendering moot our need to wait for our original sources to confirm this story.
UPDATE: 3/9 6PM Chris Horner, whose story at the Daily Caller prompted a fair amount of outrage from AGW proponents, has responded to Wahl and Mann here
==========================================================
h/t SF Grand Master, Damon Knight, who was the author of the original short story this Twilight Zone episode was based upon.
Jones specifically asked Mann to delete emails with Briffa with regard to AR4. Mann claims that he deleted no mails. This is entirely possible, especially if there were no mails fitting the description. Canvasing the Climategate mails, we can only find a few mails between Briffa and Mann related to Ar4. If there were few or no mails to delete, then it does make sense that Mann could have passed the instruct to delete onto Wahl, without deleting mails himself. S. Mosher.

ctm,
May the bird of paradise fly up your nose . . . .
May an elephant caress you with its toes . . . .
Take care friend
John
Regardless of the deleted or not deleted e-mails, this whole expose (thanks, mosh and ctm!) shows clearly that the enquiry into Mann’s conduct was the same sort of whitewash as we’ve seen over here, regarding Jones and the CRU.
It is one thing to say ‘whitewash’ because of gut feelings – it is quite another to show clearly and irrefutably why and how it has been done.
Thus the squealings from AGW believers, that the scientists have been shown to have been whiter than white, can now be silenced.
But do keep track of the fumblings by those concerned who are clumsily trying to move the pea under the thimbles yet again. They don’t seem to notice that the debate has moved on and that their efforts at obfuscation are not fooling anybody any longer.
Ian W.
thanks a lot for answering my question – much appreciated.
Mann is as innocent as a person who willingly passes a note from a mob boss to a hit-man, where the person passing the note knows that it contains instructions to ‘erase’ someone.
Patrick Davis says: (March 10, 2011 at 1:42 am)
Abbot (Liberal) is not well respected it appears and between wanting some form of “tax to control climate” and stating “climate change” is crap, he’s just reacting what he thinks will put him into power.
I choose to think a lot better of him than that, Patrick. Your assessment of him seems a trifle jaundiced to me. I prefer to believe he is accepting the limitations of the “possible” with the greater electorate whilst pursuing a course which will eventually see the climate fraud unmasked and thence irrelevant.
Wow, that’s a pretty big retraction of this story. I don’t know how it started off so wrong (that Mann asked Wahl to delete e-mails) in the first place. In any objective analysis, this really damages Horner’s and Mosher’s credibility. You can’t just make things up and allow them to fly around the Internet, only ‘fixing’ them after someone (under threat of a libel suit) points out that you’ve made them up. Folks are still using satellite analyses from Christy and Spencer that have been shown to be inaccurate, and temperature reconstructions from Loehle, and inaccurate WSJ articles on the weather not getting wierder … the skeptics demand accuracy and lack of hyperbole from the AGW theory proponents; skeptics need to hold themselves to the same standards.
OT Take note: Google is definitely trying to hide surreptitiously any negatives about AGW. For example they will ALWAYS quote the pro warming statement even in a skeptic/denier news situation example Russia’s hot summer not due AGW but natural causes etc story. This is the main quote relating to story which they picked. Someone at Google is really trying to steer this boat
http://news.google.com.au/news/more?pz=1&cf=all&ned=au&cf=all&ncl=dobH767Tbyuwk7M4F2jZFzbFw8IbM
“Unfortunately, what is happening now in our central regions is evidence of this global climate change, because we have never in our history faced such weather conditions in the past,” Dmitri A. Medvedev, the Russian president, told top advisers during a meeting on the heat wave last July.
more by Dmitry Medvedev – 11 hours ago – New York Times (blog) (87 occurrences)
Another tactic at Google seems to delay any skeptic news as long as possible and minimize it. That’s my impression anyway..(me paranoia?) LOL
Patrick Davis says:
March 10, 2011 at 1:42 am
I won’t hold out much hope our Australian “leaders” will take note of the obvious. Bit like rabbits fronzen in the headlights of a car. Too late!
If all the major parties are united in delusion, then it’s time for the population to give’em a whack with the cluebat. Organise.
[Snip. You can’t call people “deniers” here. Read the Policy page. ~dbs, mod.]
Hey “Team”sters,
Add context to the request to delete emails.
**************Wahl agreed with SteveMc’s objections before Phil Jones told him not to. And Wahl used text from Phil Jones as yet unpublished paper to refute SteveMc’s position. Phil Jones was supposed to be outside of the IPCC process.*****************
These are the emails being deleted.
Can you not see the forest for the trees?
Here is one allegation the committee investigated:
Allegation 2: Did you engage in, or participate in, directly or indirectly, any actions with the intent to delete, conceal or otherwise destroy emails, information and/or data, related to AR4, as suggested by Phil Jones?
Finding 2. After careful consideration of all the evidence and relevant materials, the inquiry committee finding is that there exists no credible evidence that Dr. Mann had ever engaged in, or participated in, directly or indirectly, any actions with intent to delete, conceal or otherwise destroy emails, information and/or data related to AR4, as suggested by Dr. Phil Jones. Dr. Mann has stated that he did not delete emails in response to Dr. Jones’ request. Further, Dr. Mann produced upon request a full archive of his emails in and around the time of the preparation of AR4. The archive contained e-mails related to AR4.
The committee found this because they apparently failed to understand Mann’s reply. As they reported:
He [Mann] explained that he never deleted emails at the behest of any other scientist, specifically including Dr. Phil Jones, and that he never withheld data with the intention of obstructing science; …
What can we make of this? Mann was apparently asked the question: “Did you engage in or participate in, directly or indirectly, any actions with the intent to delete emails.”
And it seems clear he only answered half of the question, leaving the unanswered second part dangling: did you contact anyone or otherwise ‘indirectly’ participate in deleting records? This either did not strike, or did not interest, the Penn State ‘investigators’. This despite that Mann, it appears, answered “carefully” and incompletely. He only answered that he hadn’t deleted emails. He never directly denies partaking, indirectly, in the deletion of Wahl’s emails. He apparently withheld the information that he had asked [forwarded the request to] Wahl to delete emails.
_____________________________________________________________
As I understand it, Mann had no prior knowledge (as of yesterday) of what actions Eugene Wahl actually took with respect to the forwarding of Jones email (sans any additional comments/commentary by Mann when he forwarded the email was “as is”).
The key words in the above allegation are “any actions with the intent to delete” whether “direct or indirect” Mann himself, at no time had any “intent” to delete any emails whatsoever. What others did with such a request was totally outside of Mann’s control. Mearly forwarding an email, as Mann was asked to do, implies no intent whatsoever, in and of itself. It was, and still is, merely a forwarding of an email from someone else making said request.
Therefore, Mann did indeed make a truthful statement.
At no time did Mann himself ask anyone to delete emails.
The classic 2nd Amendment argument holds true here, it wasn’t the gun that killed someone, it was the holder of said gun that killed someone. The holder of said gun being one Eugene Wahl. Wahl pulled the trigger, and only Wahl pulled the trigger.
McIntyre is also incorrect as to the final IPCC publications deadline with respect to AR4 WG1, the final IPCC document states (and dated 01 July 2006);
“We are very grateful to the many reviewers of the second draft of the Working Group I contribution to the IPCC Fourth Assessment Report for suggestions received on issues of balance and citation of additional scientific literature. To ensure clarity and transparency in determining how such material might be included in the final Working Group I report, the following guidelines will be used by Lead Authors in considering such suggestions.
In preparing the final draft of the IPCC Working Group I report, Lead Authors may include scientific papers published in 2006 where, in their judgment, doing so would advance the goal of achieving a balance of scientific views in addressing reviewer comments. However, new issues beyond those covered in the second order draft will not be introduced at this stage in the preparation of the report.
Reviewers are invited to submit copies of additional papers that are either in-press or published in 2006, along with the chapter and section number to which this material could pertain, via email to ipcc-wg1@al.noaa.gov, not later than July 24, 2006. In the case of in-press papers a copy of the final acceptance letter from the journal is requested for our records. All submissions must be received by the TSU not later than July 24, 2006 and incomplete submissions can not be accepted.”
So 24 July 2006 was, in fact, the final drop dead date for inclusion in AR4 WG1.
Wahl and Ammann (2006) was published by Science on 28 April 2006.
Wahl and Ammann (2007) was accepted on 1 March 2006.
Both of these papers satisfy the final IPCC publication deadlines as outlined/quoted above.
As to FOI and EIR requests, from their origination (in 2008) to the present date, in regard to UEA emails the UEA has been very consistent in their responses;
“Release of some of the information likely to adversely effect the interests of the person providing the information.”
“The public interest in withholding this information outweighs that of releasing it due to the need to protect the openness and confidentiality of academic intercourse.”
“What is being asked for here is informal, personal correspondence passing between academics engaged in IPCC work. It is clear that the IPCC envisages that there must be a ‘space’ in which employees of public authorities can work, and exchange views that are excepted from public disclosure in order to provide an arena for views and discussions that would not be appropriate in a public venue but are essential to academic work, collegiality, the progress of science. To disclose the requested information would be to close off this space, reducing the opportunity for academics to exchange such views and discussions, and altering substantially the content of such exchanges.”
“I have reviewed Mr. Palmer’s application of the public interest test and I do not believe that our position has changed in this respect and uphold Mr. Palmer’s original decision.
We would now consider this to be our final position on the internal review of this matter, and would advise that if you are dissatisfied with this response, you should now exercise your right of appeal to the Information Commissioner at;
.
.
.
Please quote our reference given at the head of this letter in all correspondence.”
I also believe I was the first to called out the whole Chris Horner/CEI/WUWT/McIntyre/Inhofe conspiracy (see my previous posts above) theory though (seeing as Inhofe has now linked to CA/WUWT/Chris Horner we pretty much know, in an oblique way, the Senate source of said smears).
Now that’s the real email audit trail that people here (you know like real skeptics would do) should be asking for.
But as I do like a great conspiracy theory, so please do, carry on.
A bit off-topic, and referring to the “Twilight” episode above: Were those “Kananites” of the “liberal” kind?
EFS_Junior says:
“Now that’s the real email audit trail that people here (you know like real skeptics would do) should be asking for. But as I do like a great conspiracy theory, so please do, carry on.”
Junior entirely misses the central point: Real skeptics ask for an adversarial investigation, in which someone making the accusation has the right to question Mann and others. It is the only way that the truth will emerge. Taxpayers deserve nothing less.
Every so-called investigation has deliberately avoided allowing someone such as Steve McIntyre and Ross McKittrick to ask Mann and others questions. If Michael Mann is being honest, he should have no objection to answering questions under oath. If his science is sound he should be happy to explain it. The fact that he talks and acts like a slippery eel tells us that his science is faulty and he’s got plenty to hide regarding the email issue.
There is no doubt that there is an ongoing conspiracy on both sides of the Atlantic to avoid an adversarial investigation at all costs. That is the reason why the warmist crowd goes ballistic over Cuccinelli’s investigation: the truth will come out if it is allowed to proceed. That prospect terrifies the climate alarmists; seven billion dollars a year and their scientific credibility is at stake.
I left this at RealClimate, awaiting moderation. I’m sure it won’t pass through their rose colored glasses filter.
Mike Lewis says:
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
10 Mar 2011 at 8:46 AM
Are you people seriously believing this? Obfuscation at work but not very convincing. Michael Mann FORWARDED an email from Dr. Jones to Dr. Wahl, in which Dr. Jones asked Dr. Mann to delete emails and to have Dr. Wahl do the same. Dr. Mann therefore became DIRECTLY involved in the request to DELETE emails. What more needed to be added to the email? “Hey Gene, I concur with Phil – delete all emails at once!” No additional commentary was necessary. His opinion can be inferred by the mere fact that he forwarded the email.
I seriously doubt this will pass moderation but it was worth a shot. Regardless of the attempts to suppress the truth, it is finding it’s way into the light.
EFS_Junior the link below gives the time line of what happend and tells a rather different story to the one you’re selling .
http://climateaudit.org/2008/05/25/wahl-and-ammann-2007-and-ipcc-deadlines/
Once Mann confirmed to Jones that he had passed on his e-mail he became actively involved in the process by his own admission. He further reduced his own wiggle room by claiming that it could bring some trouble to Wahl , which in effect tells us not only did he pass it on, but he read it and he understood the implications of the message.
And Penn State asked, ‘directly or indirectly’ if Mann’s answer to former is correct, it’s clear his answer to the second is incorrect .
“If that was a part of his thought processes at the time, Uhm… you would think he would communicate that to Wahl. Wouldn’t you think Mann would say something like… ” – Sonicfrog
Not necessarily. Speaking from my own experience where I work, I have several managers who are always trying to do an end run around our company’s processes. I work for one of the higher ups, when I get an email that shows they’re up to their tricks again I often just forward it to my boss as an FYI, he implicitly knows why he’s getting it. If Mann and Wahl are close enough, it wouldn’t surprise me for him to forward an email like that without explanation. What sticks in my head is that, if that’s the case, then apparently Mann and Wahl have a less than stellar opinion about the East Anglia crew, as if this is the behavior they expect from them.
“Roger Carr says:
March 10, 2011 at 3:44 am”
Ok, I guess I should have quantified my post. It is how I interpret the Australian media’s portrayal, and those who respond in blogs at say The Sydney Morning Herald, of these “leaders”. So my post is entirely representitive, IMO, of my observations (As a migrant).
“tallbloke says:
March 10, 2011 at 3:56 am”
I wish. Problem is, as I have stated before, easy food at KFC (Kant F[snip] Cook), dumbed down education system, welfare dependency (Middle class and business too), too much footy and other rubbish on TV. Basically, Australians are too comfortable. If Gillard gets her way, and it is likely she will, things will change. Not dramatically, maybe 20-30 years *might* result in public protest. Does this ring familiar with recent events in the ME and North Africa?
Suggested Scenario: Mann calls Wahl after receiving the email from Jones. They discuss the proper course of action, or Mann leaves a phone message to talk to Wahl about it. Whichever, Mann seems to have had a bit of concern over the request and fears the email bit-trail. The phone call is either completed or not, with the results seemingly to be, forward the request without comment from Mann (because Mann didn’t want anything to do with this but is feeling pressure to play along as he is still considered to be a junior member of the A team?).
My hunch is that now Mann could be under pressure (from outside or his own innerds) to downplay this like a good team player, in spite of his true feelings about the whole affair, in order to keep his hockyschtick afloat. Mann clearly stands on shakey ground in terms of his contribution to climate science and is wanting to hold onto that shakey ground till firmer footing is available. Could this be the behavior of a man willing to play a slightly dirty game of pool in order to stay on the game board? If so, I bet he is feeling a bit used, kinda like the passive net in a game of ping-pong between Jones and Wahl.
carbon-based life form says:
March 9, 2011 at 6:06 pm
I’ve seen Mann bluster about legal suits before, but I haven’t seen any. Does anybody know of any? Have I missed any? I’d have to conclude that lack of legal action on Mann’s part speaks volumes. I would dearly welcome such a suit–I think Mann would be left hanging in the wind, hoisted by his own petard.
Reply: I skim for tone, I’m good a skimming. Sometimes what one writes actually interests me to the point of a careful read. Yours did. Hey everybody, I know it appears I’ve come out of retirement, but this past few days have actually helped me determine that this level of participation takes a serious toll on my life,
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Damn ctm, I hadn’t realized you walked away…..maybe you announced on a heavy beer night? Or when I was out agitating warmistas? Or both? At any rate, that sucks. You’re a great moderator! Perhaps we can look forward to a different form of participation? Best wishes,
James
Look, I know that educators are the new group of whipping boys, but I really get sick and tired of the notion of “dumbed down education”. For those who wish to take a second look at such unsubstantiated drivel, 48 states have banned together and have adopted very rigorous Common Core State Standards. If you want a peek at what we are jamming into kids’ brains these days, go to:
http://www.corestandards.org/
These standards now form the basis for educational goals (and soon to be, a common rigorous assessment across these states), even on documents meant for kids with learning disabilities. This year, I spent many lessons on x and y with a group of 10 and 11 year old kids that not only have significant math disabilities, they also struggle learning how to read. And I must say, every one of them rose to the challenge.
I don’t know where you get the idea of a dumbed down education system, because it does not exist in real life. And most certainly, it does not exist in the dedicated group of kids I serve every day. So put up or shut up as to your rhetoric.
There is such an extended discussion of morality (lying, dissembling, careful speaking, etc) in this thread, I would like to pose a question to this august group of ethicists.
I am scrolling through this extended thread, completely skipping any weighty discussion (although I did read a couple of the comments about Jesuits), looking only for replys to EFS_Junior so that I can enjoy the fisking. CTM hooked me with “femto” and I couldn’t stop.
Does this make me a bad person?
“What sticks in my head is that, if that’s the case, then apparently Mann and Wahl have a less than stellar opinion about the East Anglia crew, as if this is the behavior they expect from them.”
Richard… Interesting point. But if that were the case, would Wahl also not delete any of the e-mail?