Breaking: Mann and Wahl have responded. See updates below.
3/9 12:45 PM Pacific Time. This story is now updated to be consistent with Mann and Wahl’s response:
By Steven Mosher
and charles the moderator
Sources confirm that a federal inspector has questioned Eugene Wahl and Wahl has confirmed that Mann asked [forwarded] him [a request] to delete emails. Wahl has also informed the inspector that he did delete emails as the result of this request.
There are times during the course of Climategate when you feel like you are in a twilight zone episode, especially the kind where the ambiguous meaning of terms plays a critical role, like “To Serve Man”.
That episode is apt because of the central role trust plays and because of the role puzzle solvers play in uncovering that the do-gooder aliens cannot be trusted. “Serving”, of course, has now taken on new meanings, as in “you got served” or pwned. With the release of the news that Mann successfully [forwarded instructions] instructed [to] Wahl to delete emails, it’s clear that Mann got served or pwned by Wahl; but more importantly, he got served or assisted by Dr. Pell, Dr. Scaroni, Dr Brune, and Dr. Foley. Who are they? They are the Penn State team who served Dr. Mann by purporting to exonerate him in the Penn State inquiry, despite Mann’s own non-responsive response to a key question being on its face evasive, and begging followup questions. Regardless, Mann’s non-answer did not even purport to support their conclusion about his actions. In short, they covered for him.
The puzzle begins back in 2006. Keith Briffa the author of chapter 6 in the 4th Assessment Report of the IPCC (AR4) is struggling under the directive of review editor Johnathan Overpeck, who has encouraged him to come up with something “more compelling than the Hockey Stick”, that iconic symbol of Global warming created by Michael Mann in the third assessment report.
Briffa is struggling with the comments and suggestions of a particular reviewer who we now know was Steve McIntyre, the citizen scientist who has been dogging Mann for several years. In what appears to be violation of IPCC rules Briffa writes to Eugene Wahl asking for assistance in answering McIntyre’s comments. More important than this communication being apparently at odds with IPCC directives, is that Briffa is asking Wahl to comment on McIntyre’s work, a process that is clearly supposed to take place in peer reviewed literature. Wahl and McIntyre had both been critical of each other’s work and such disputes are most fairly handled by independent third parties and not by the disputants themselves.
In mid 2006 the following exchange occurs between Briffa and Eugene Wahl:
From: Keith Briffa [mailto:k.briffa@xxxxxxxxx.xxx]
Sent: Tue 7/18/2006 10:20 AM
To: Wahl, Eugene R
Subject: confidential
Gene
I am taking the liberty (confidentially) to send you a copy of the reviewers[McIntyre’s] comments (please keep these to yourself) of the last IPCC draft chapter. I am concerned that I am not as objective as perhaps I should be and would appreciate your take on the comments from number 6-737 onwards , that relate to your reassessment of the Mann et al work. I have to consider whether the current text is fair or whether I should change things in the light of the sceptic comments. In practise this brief version has evolved and there is little scope for additional text , but I must put on record responses to these comments – any confidential help , opinions are appreciated . I have only days now to complete this revision and response
Wahl responds
Thoughts and perspective concerning the reviewer’s comments per se. These are coded in blue and are in the “Notes” column between pages 103 and 122 inclusive. It got to the point that I could not be exhaustive, given the very lengthy set of review thoughts, so I am also attaching a review article Caspar [Ammann] and I plan to submit to Climatic Change in the next few days….Please note that this Ammann-Wahl text is sent strictly confidentially — it should not be cited or mentioned in any form, and MUST not be transmitted without permission. However, I am more than happy to send it for your use, because it succinctly summarizes what we have found on all the issues that have come up re: MBH. As you can see, we agree at some level with some of the criticisms raised by MM [McIntyre] and others, but we do not find that they invalidate MBH in any substantial way.
Briffa responds
Gene
here is where I am up to now with my responses (still a load to do) you can see that I have “borrowed (stolen)” from 2 of your responses in a significant degree – please assure me that this OK (and will not later be obvious) hopefully.You will get the whole text(confidentially again ) soon. You could also see that I hope to be fair to Mike[Mann] – but he can be a little unbalanced in his remarks sometime – and I have had to disagree with his interpretations of some issues also. Please do not pass these on to anyone at all.
Keith
Wahl responds, jumping into the “divergence” problem which has come to be known as the “hide the decline” problem.
Hi Keith:
Here is the text with my comments. I will go over the “stolen” parts (highlighted in blue outline) for a final time tomorrow morning, but I wanted to get this to you ASAP. The main new point I have to make is added in bold/blue font on pp. 101-103. I question the way the response to the comment there is currently worded, as it seems to imply that the divergence issue really does invalidate any dendro-based reconstructions before about 1850–which I imagine is not what you would like to say. I give a series of arguments against this as a general conclusion. Maybe I got over-bold in doing so, as in my point (1) I’m examining issues that are at the very core of your expertise! Excuse me that one, but I decided to jump in anyway. Let me know if I got it wrong in any way!
Briffa responds
First Gene – let me say that I never intended that you should spend so much time on this – though I really appreciate your take on these points. The one you highlight here – correctly warns me that in succumbing to the temptation to be lazy in the sense of the brief answer that I have provided – I do give an implied endorsement of the sense of the whole comment. This is not, of course what I intended. I simply meant to agree that some reference to the “divergence” issue was necessitated . I will revise the reply to say briefly that I do not agree with the interpretation of the reviewer. I am attaching what I have done (see blue highlighting) to the section in response to comments (including the addition of the needed extra section on the “tree-ring issues” called for by several people). I have had no feedback yet on this as it has not been generally circulated , but thought you might like to see it. PLEASE REMEMBER that this is “for your eyes only ” . Please do NOT feel that I am asking /expecting you to go through this in any detail – but given the trouble you have taken,I thought it reasonable to give you a private look. Cheers
Keith
So, Briffa writes confidentially to Wahl for help and Wahl assists him by passing a copy of a paper that has yet to be published. The aim is to answer concerns that McIntyre as reviewer has raised. Wahl and Amman’s words are incorporated in the response to McIntyre with the hope that no one will ever notice.
Two years later, someone does notice. It’s May 24th 2008, Steve McIntyre, climate science puzzle solver, is reading the reviewer comments to chapter 6 of AR4 written in 2006. In the course of reviewing Briffa’s replies to him, McIntyre notes something peculiar. Briffa’s replies, written in 2006, seemed to plagiarize an unpublished paper by Casper Amman and Eugene Wahl published in 2007. That is, in 2006 Briffa was repeating the argument of a paper that was not published until 2007. How could Briffa plagiarize an article that hadn’t been published? Why would he repeat the arguments almost word for word? Who was feeding Briffa his arguments? How was Briffa doing this if all communication with the authors had to be part of the official record?
At the time, in May of 2008, McIntyre assumed that Briffa was getting information from Casper Ammann since Ammann was listed as a contributing author to chapter 6. It did not occur to McIntyre that Wahl was the source of the text. Thanks to the individual who liberated the Climategate emails, we now know that Wahl was the source of that text. The Climategate emails, quoted above, show Briffa and Wahl exchanging emails about the way McIntyre’s arguments should be handled. Confidentially, outside the process of the IPCC which is designed to capture reviewer objections and authors’ responses to those objections. Wahl is brought in by Briffa to defend his own work. And defend it with literature that has not been published yet.
At the same time in 2008, across the ocean, David Holland had been reading McIntyre’s work and he had issued an FOIA request to the Climatic Research Unit–CRU. That FOIA request covered all correspondence coming in and out of CRU relative to chapter 6 of AR4. The hunt for the source that was feeding Briffa was on, with Holland leading the charge. At CRU, FOIA officer Palmer instructs the team that they must do everything “by the book” because Holland will most certainly appeal a rejection letter.
In that context, Jones writes the famous email to Mann. Jones requests that Mann delete his emails and he requests that Mann contact Wahl and have Wahl delete his emails. Is Jones covering his bases in case of an appeal? Is he covering his bases against an FOIA request that might be served on Mann and Wahl in the US? In any case, he appears to be conspiring with others to deny Holland his FOIA rights.
Mike,
Can you delete any emails you may have had with Keith re AR4? Keith will do likewise. He’s not in at the moment – minor family crisis Can you also email Gene and get him to do the same? I don’t have his new email address.We will be getting Caspar to do likewise. I see that CA claim they discovered the 1945 problem in the Nature paper
Mann responds that he will contact Wahl ASAP, which he does.
Hi Phil,
laughable that CA would claim to have discovered the problem. They would have run off to the Wall Street Journal for an exclusive were that to have been true. I’ll contact Gene about this ASAP. His new email is: generwahl@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
talk to you later,
mike
As Wahl told the investigators in 2011, Mann contacted [forwarded the email from Jones requesting deletion to] him and Wahl deleted his mails.
In 2010, in an effort to clear Mann of any wrong doing, a committee of inquiry was set up at Penn State. We now know that committee failed miserably. They failed for many reasons, but the Wahl admission is the starkest example.
Here is one allegation the committee investigated:
Allegation 2: Did you engage in, or participate in, directly or indirectly, any actions with the intent to delete, conceal or otherwise destroy emails, information and/or data, related to AR4, as suggested by Phil Jones?
Finding 2. After careful consideration of all the evidence and relevant materials, the inquiry committee finding is that there exists no credible evidence that Dr. Mann had ever engaged in, or participated in, directly or indirectly, any actions with intent to delete, conceal or otherwise destroy emails, information and/or data related to AR4, as suggested by Dr. Phil Jones. Dr. Mann has stated that he did not delete emails in response to Dr. Jones’ request. Further, Dr. Mann produced upon request a full archive of his emails in and around the time of the preparation of AR4. The archive contained e-mails related to AR4.
The committee found this because they apparently failed to understand Mann’s reply. As they reported:
He [Mann] explained that he never deleted emails at the behest of any other scientist, specifically including Dr. Phil Jones, and that he never withheld data with the intention of obstructing science; …
What can we make of this? Mann was apparently asked the question: “Did you engage in or participate in, directly or indirectly, any actions with the intent to delete emails.”
And it seems clear he only answered half of the question, leaving the unanswered second part dangling: did you contact anyone or otherwise ‘indirectly’ participate in deleting records? This either did not strike, or did not interest, the Penn State ‘investigators’. This despite that Mann, it appears, answered “carefully” and incompletely. He only answered that he hadn’t deleted emails. He never directly denies partaking, indirectly, in the deletion of Wahl’s emails. He apparently withheld the information that he had asked [forwarded the request to] Wahl to delete emails.
Is this a lie? Not directly. It’s more what Wikipedia would describe as “Careful Speaking”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie
Careful speaking is distinct from the above in that the speaker wishes to avoid imparting certain information or admitting certain facts and, additionally, does not want to ‘lie’ when doing so. Careful speaking involves using carefully-phrased statements to give a ‘half-answer’: one that does not actually ‘answer’ the question, but still provides an appropriate (and accurate) answer based on that question. As with ‘misleading’, below, ‘careful speaking’ is not outright lying.
So why did the inquiry, stocked with Mann’s fellow professors, fail to ask good follow up questions? We really do not know because we don’t have access to the transcript of their interview with Mann. Did he intend to deceive? Or did he just speak “carefully?” It would seem that the actual transcript of the questions and answers should be published. Perhaps Congress should serve the members of the inquiry with a subpoena. That would allow people to decide if Mann lied or if he just spoke carefully.
And there are a few more questions we need to ask. Mann claims that he never deleted the emails. But he asked [forwarded Jones’s request to] Wahl to delete the emails. This makes no sense. It makes no sense that Mann would participate in a cover up by passing along a message to another participant of that cover-up downstream and not delete emails himself. It defies any logical reconstruction of events. Why would Mann ask [forward a request to] Wahl to do something that he himself would not do? We also know from the inquiry that Mann delivered emails to the inquiry. From that evidence and his testimony they concluded that he deleted no emails. This does not compute. [S.M: See update below for a possible explanation ]
Jones requested of Mann: Can you delete any emails you may have had with Keith re AR4?
The inquiry stated: The archive contained e-mails related to AR4. (Hmm…more “Careful Speaking”?)
Did the inquiry find any emails of Mann communicating with Briffa re AR4 or just some emails related to AR4?
Did Mann turn over all the emails he wrote/received or only those he didn’t delete?
Was the email from Phil Jones requesting deletion among the emails Mann delivered to the inquiry?
Did the IT staff serve Mann, by letting him know that what he initially attempted to delete were in fact retained on the University mail server?
Did Mann turn over emails to the inquiry that he had previously deleted, deleted and then recovered with the help of some sympathetic University IT staff?
These questions need to be asked.
Perhaps Congress should serve Mann a subpoena.
Perhaps, the IG, the NSF, or some other suitable independent third party can investigate this with people who know how to watch for the pea under the thimble, and not be mislead by “Careful Speaking”.
=================================================================
UPDATES:
Steve McIntyre at Climate Audit has the goods in this: Wahl Transcript Excerpt
Chris Horner at DailyCaller also has a review: Penn State whitewashed ClimateGate
In fact, Chris Horner and the Competitive Enterprise Institute were instrumental in efforts over a year to get this and other forthcoming FOIA info into the public domain. – Anthony
UPDATE 3/9 12PM Mann and Wahl have responded see here.
Excerpt:
Mann, reached on vacation in Hawaii, said the stories yesterday were “libelous” and false. “They’re spreading a lie about me,” he said of the Web sites. “This has been known for a year and a half that all I did was forward Phil’s e-mail to Eugene.” Asked why he sent the e-mail to his colleague, Mann said, “I felt Eugene Wahl had to be aware of this e-mail … it could be used against him. I didn’t delete any e-mails and nor did I tell Wahl to delete any e-mails.” Why didn’t Mann call Wahl to discuss the odd request? “I was so busy. It’s much easier to e-mail somebody. No where did I approve of the instruction to destroy e-mails.”
Also at the above link, Wahl has now publicly stated that he did in fact delete emails in response to the request forwarded to him by Mann, rendering moot our need to wait for our original sources to confirm this story.
UPDATE: 3/9 6PM Chris Horner, whose story at the Daily Caller prompted a fair amount of outrage from AGW proponents, has responded to Wahl and Mann here
==========================================================
h/t SF Grand Master, Damon Knight, who was the author of the original short story this Twilight Zone episode was based upon.
Jones specifically asked Mann to delete emails with Briffa with regard to AR4. Mann claims that he deleted no mails. This is entirely possible, especially if there were no mails fitting the description. Canvasing the Climategate mails, we can only find a few mails between Briffa and Mann related to Ar4. If there were few or no mails to delete, then it does make sense that Mann could have passed the instruct to delete onto Wahl, without deleting mails himself. S. Mosher.

Pamela Gray,
So have they indeed shifted focus to developing critical thinking skills in America? That’s not the case here in Canada. Watching twenty somethings reach for a calculator for basic math or regurgitating verbatim read text in obvious absence of comprehension is really getting annoying here in the real world where what has been written of and what actually is are usually two different things.
The boundary between lying and deliberate deceiving is a subtlety in the eye of the beholder. There is no moral difference
Hi Anthony,
seems like K. Cuccinelli won his appeal:
http://www.courts.state.va.us/courts/scv/appeals/102359.html
I am very interested how this story continues .. perhaps you could even ask him to write a post here!?
Keep up the search for the truth!!
And like many others I am looking forward for your surface station paper . . 🙂
Cheers,
LoN
Those of you that have followed this saga for some time will probably understand what it is all about, but for the benefit of any new readers let me again put up a link to my Russell Review Submission and say that paragraphs 62 and 63 are what I believe the “delete all email” is really about.
Jones’ email is certainly not the only reason for the Climategate leak, but the “hockey team” have so far managed to mount plausible defences to the “hide the decline”, to interfering with peer-review, to Eugene Wahl’s back-channel to Briffa and even to the retrospective change in the “in press” deadline that allowed Wahl and Ammann 2007 to remain in AR4. Indeed AR5 have adopted AR4’s policy of allowing citation of papers not “in press” until 3 months after the Government and Expert Review stage. Four inquiries have made little criticism of the climate scientists or the IPCC process.
No sceptic is convinced, of course, but that does not matter so long as their supporters remained committed to them as they are now – and would still have remained committed if everything released in Climategate had been disclosed 20 days after I first asked for it on 5 May 2008.
So why did Jones take the career-ending risk to try to get all AR4 emails held by Briffa, Mann, Wahl and Ammann deleted? What I think made the difference on 27 May 2008 was not my request to UEA but what I asked the Secretary of the IPCC, Renate Christ, a couple of hours earlier.
Government and Expert Reviewers had sent suggestions for correcting or improving the IPCC Report in “comments” and each was given a unique reference. By the June 2006 Bergen Lead Authors’ meeting, I will bet dollars to doughnuts that Jones, Overpeck, and Solomon knew that the US Government and other Expert Reviewers had pointed out that Wahl and Ammann 2007 broke the citation rules and that those published rules required its removal from the IPCC Report.
In Briffa and Osborn’s evidence to Russell, Solomon admits that, with her Head of the TSU, Manning, and Jones, Overpeck, and the other Lead Authors she retrospectively changed the deadline to two months after the review stage had ended. On 3 July 2006, WGI TSU sent a memo to all 600 Expert Reviewers which said that “many” of them had made suggestions that resulted in the new guidelines that the memo contained. Unsurprisingly the memo did not say that it would allow Wahl and Ammann 2007 to be kept in the Report. Indeed it applied only to “additional” “2006” papers. However, the critical Review comments on Wahl and Ammann 2007 were rejected by reference to these new guidelines.
But, regardless of whether the Lead Authors were entitled to change the deadline (and technically they may have been), what if it was totally untrue that “many” Reviewers had suggested the deadline change? What if no Reviewer had? If it were beyond doubt that WGI TSU, with the agreement of the Co-Chair, all Lead Authors, and with the acquiescence of all Review Editors, had sent out a lie to all Reviewers? How could anyone in the world trust any of them?
So you can guess what I asked the IPCC secretary on 27 May 2008 and what may have spooked Jones into his email on the 29 May. Having seen the loose talk in the Climategate emails I doubt that he could be sure of just what he, Briffa, Mann, Wahl or Amman might have put in an email.
I simply asked to be told which of the 11, 283 comments, that thanks to Steve McIntyre and despite the best efforts of Susan Solomon had just been released, suggested the deadline change. She did not answer then and she did answer when I asked her and Susan Solomon on 2 April 2010. By then I had thoroughly searched electronically all the comments whereas previously I had only searched four chapters. I put it to them that there were no suggestions and asked them to disprove me.
On 12 April 2010, I think I got an indirect reply. The Russell Review refused to publish the submission that I had sent on 25 February 2010 and has since refused to say why. However, after saying that they needed to correct every statement in my submission, Briffa and Osborn, in their evidence to Russell, chose not to show or comment on paragraphs 62 and 63 of my submission.
Despite Russell’s suggestion that someone might want to sue them for defamation if my submission was published no one, so far, has even hinted at it to me even though it is easily available through the Parliamentary website. If AR4 WGI wishes to prove it did not lie, it is very simple. They need only quote the references to some of the “many” comments from AR4 WGI Expert Reviewers that suggested the deadline change.
“Richard… Interesting point. But if that were the case, would Wahl also not delete any of the e-mail?” – Sonicfrog
Possibly, I don’t think we know enough. We’re dealing with a situation that includes a lot of people with their own standards and motivations. All I’m saying is fowarding an email without embellishment could mean a lot of things, some of them more to Mann’s favor than not. Like Pamela Gray said, he might be feeling pressured to behave in ways contrary to what he’d normally do. And to be honest that just makes him human. And, I wouldn’t think that kind of pressure would be unexpected when embroiled in this polarizing issue. It’s perfectly possible Mann forwarded the email thinking it was wrong and improper, but seeing skeptics as a greatr enemy, perhaps his only course to avoid having his own ass handed to him. When you see enemies every where the tendency to circle the wagons even with people you normally wouldn’t like in order to protect against a greater foe is common. It’s another way of saying politics makes strange bed fellows. And in his past communications Mann strikes me as an overly paranoid type, I hink he’d be particularly open to an us against them attitude, even with people in the ‘us’ crowd that he doesn’t particularly like or agree with.
Perhaps the greater point and one that needs more emphasis is that all this conjecture about Mann et al and their motivations wouldn’t be necessary if all the facts were on the table. To that, they’re all wanting.
KnR says:
March 10, 2011 at 5:55 am
EFS_Junior the link below gives the time line of what happend and tells a rather different story to the one you’re selling .
http://climateaudit.org/2008/05/25/wahl-and-ammann-2007-and-ipcc-deadlines/
_____________________________________________________________
McIntyre does not post the last IPCC Publication Deadlines dated 01 July 2006, that document postdates McIntyre’s information.
Being from Team Audit, you’d think he’d get this right, don’t you think?
The PDF file is titled;
PublicationDeadlines_2006-07-01.pdf
What I posted was verbatim from said document, I was able to find this through a Google search (there is a reference to it at Bishop Hill in a post by David Holland, he does quote from it almost verbatim, as I have done above);
http://bishophill.squarespace.com/blog/2009/11/20/climate-cuttings-33.html?currentPage=3
As to direct or indirect or intent, none of these types of questions apply to what Mann did not do, Mann did not delete any emails.
Simply forwarding an email, when asked, does not imply, directly or indirectly, the intentions of asking someone else to delete emails, never has, never will.
Jones made a very specific request, Mann forwarded that email per Jones request, so in fact, Mann not adding any commentary should also be considered, like not saying you should do as Jones suggests, also implies something, in and of itself, Mann did not act on Jones request to delete emails, however Wahl did act on Jones request and deleted emails.
Something along the lines of killing the messenger, not the message, comes to mind here.
Nothing unlawful here, by Mann or Wahl, not in criminal court, not in civil court, and certainly not with respect to anything PSU has, or will, look into at any future date.
You are simply scapegoating Mann, for the sake of skapegoating Mann.
I welcome a civil or criminal investigation, or whatever, Mann will escape unscathed, of that I am certain.
It’s now 2011, but you all seem to be stuck in 1998 for some very odd reason. Is that part of the Team Audit effect? Someone is going to take a hockey stick to their grave (in due course by natural causes, of course, don’t want to be accused of something like an action or direct or indirect or intent, mind you, give you people an inch and you’ll turn it into light-years), and it won’t be Mann.
To expland on that last point, when there’s questions about something that happens at y job, first thing I do is go to my boss and tell him everything that happened, including any of my potential screw ups. And I print all the relevant emails and make them available to him and senior management. Similar behavior here from the climate ‘scientists’ would be nice.
As I posted at Bishop Hill, and as has been mentioned elsewhere, if Mann simply forwarded Jones’ email, it would have retained the subject line:
Subject: Re: IPCC & FOI
This makes it hard to credit Wahl’s statement to the inquiry that he knew nothing about it being connected with FOI requests:
Q. I guess if the exchange of comments and your review was appropriate, I guess what I’m just trying to understand why you’d be ask to delete the emails after the fact, at the time that they’re — it appears that the CRU is receiving FOIA requests
A. Yeah. I had no knowledge of anything like that
Looks like Wahl has more explaining to do…
“Mann himself, at no time had any “intent” to delete any emails whatsoever. What others did with such a request was totally outside of Mann’s control. Mearly forwarding an email, as Mann was asked to do, implies no intent whatsoever, in and of itself. It was, and still is, merely a forwarding of an email from someone else making said request.”
It hard to say definitively whether mann had any intent to delete. The best we can do is ask mann why he forwarded the mail.
First off, mann contacted Jones and wrote that “he would contact gene about this ASAP” Then he claims ( we have no evidence) that he merely forwarded the mail to Wahl. He claims he forwarded it because it could be used against wahl. how? Mann’s report of his intent doesnt really make much sense.
I suspect to get to the bottom of it one would have to have him on the stand.
Blanket statements inferring stupidity are generally something I like to avoid. However I have had such horrific experiences with the California educational systems that I have developed quite a bias. Perhaps the most absurd interaction wasn’t something I was directly a part of. A long time ago, when I was in a math tutor hall at a junior college in So.Cal, I saw another man (a math PhD) tutoring a middle-aged woman. She was having trouble with fractions. She was quite frustrated already and started voicing as much to the tutor trying to help her. She somewhat loudly proclaimed she had no need for this knowledge, she was only planning on teaching K-6 kids. The tutor, being a big math/science guy, took offense to this. He tried to assert to her that she would be teaching a wide variety of young individuals and she could not possibly know what would interest them. She then took offense to this, and a seriously loud argument ensued. The woman was actually trying to openly justify her distaste for math while becoming a teacher.
This example, in my experience, is not isolated. I have close acquaintances who have serious desire to be good teachers, but will loudly object to having to think/act/teach science or math to kids. I’m dance-partner friends with one woman who has no science background, but was recruited to teach it because no one else would. She likes teaching and I encourage her when I talk to her, but she’s woefully unprepared to instruct on critical thought processes.
So yes, when some of us here say that education is being dumbed down, we have actual reasons for saying such. All due respect to the teachers who love science/math, but you need to shout down and even actively seek to remove those colleagues of yours who ruin that subject for everyone else.
Steven Mosher says:
“I suspect to get to the bottom of it one would have to have him on the stand.”
That may yet happen. Cuccinelli won his appeal.
Steven Mosher says:
March 10, 2011 at 8:06 am
“I suspect to get to the bottom of it one would have to have him on the stand.”
==================================================
And even then, I’m not convinced he’d be forthcoming. From plausible to implausible deniability. No one can objectively read this stuff and believe Mann’s explanation, that he was seeking to protect Wahl from the e-mail he forwarded to Wahl from Jones. Did Mann have a Sheen break and suddenly think Jones was out to set Wahl up with an e-mail requesting deletion of information? He seems to be implying as much.
This is looking even worse now that it has become public. Wahl and Mann sound like childish quibblers with their self-righteous blather. Just like Clinton did about sex with an intern.
Excellent catch.
You don’t know this, you can’t say this.
Forwarding an e-mail is the generation of a new e-mail. you are not delivering someone else’s packeted information to another router with no knowledge of its contents, the forward-button actually creates a new message from your mailbox. If this were 1960 and you handed an envelope to a secretary and said, “forward this to Bob”, and the envelope contained instructions for murder, the secretary is blameless so long as she does not open the envelope. The forward button in e-mail software is akin to the secretary opening the envelope, typing out a new copy of the letter, and forwarding the new copy on to its destination. There is no way the secretary can consider herself blameless in such a case, she is an accessory to a crime. You are terribly incorrect in your assessment here.
This is a common theme from team alarmist, which seeks to obstruct free access to truth at any turn. Somehow the people who seek to understand what happened are labeled as obsessed by those who obstruct their ability to get all the facts.
“Why are you guys still stuck in 1998??”
“Maybe because it is now 2011 and you still haven’t spoken the whole truth about what you did in 1998?”
Just at CA this looks even bigger PSU caught out
http://climateaudit.org/2011/03/10/what-did-penn-state-know/
maybe headline post here 2 hahahah again!
ctm,
I was really enjoying your return… great work as always. Ciao!
Richard said:
Possibly, I don’t think we know enough. We’re dealing with a situation that includes a lot of people with their own standards and motivations. All I’m saying is fowarding an email without embellishment could mean a lot of things, some of them more to Mann’s favor than not. Like Pamela Gray said, he might be feeling pressured to behave in ways contrary to what he’d normally do. And to be honest that just makes him human.
Yep. I was going to write a blog post on this topic, but decided to scrap the idea. I can add nothing, and this kind of stuff gets to be a bit tabloid after a while. I’d rather stick to the scientific analysis.
On to the science. I will hopefully have a post up today analyzing Gavin’s year end review on the state of the climate. BUT… It’s my b-day today… So maybe I’ll just take the whole day off!!! 🙂
This is great reading: I just can’t help coming back to it time after time to read more – plus the links (and, CWON1, thanks for the video link to Absence of Malice, one of Paul Newman’s best films. And what wouldn’t you give for an investigator like actor Wilford Brimley!).
After reading pretty much ALL the comments I get the distinct impression that Mann could well have the following call to Phil Jones:
Mann: ‘Well, Phil. That’s a fine mess we’ve gotten into. I’m up to my ankles in bull poo!’
Jones: ‘So not too bad then, Mike?’
Mann: ‘Not too bad?? Phil, when I say I’m up to my ankles, you have to understand that I’m in it head first!
EFS_Junior says: if you think there was no problem with IPCC deadlines , why then did Jones ask for these e-mails to be deleted ?
Mann read the e-mail , we knows is becasue he comments on it , he then passed it on to Whal and e-mailed Jones to tell him he had do so . He is an ACTIVE participate in the event. If he deleted any e-mails is very much of debate and even here he is given himself wiggle room in the land semantics.
Mooloo says:
Didn’t we have people arguing recently that calling a statement “libelous” was actually a threat to sue?
Well, we have “Amused” saying they should:
I wonder that some have not taken legal action against the perpetrators o these slanders
(Apparently with an Irish accent)
Seems to me that if the statements were, indeed, libelous or slanderous, someone WOULD have taken those making the statements (AW & co) to court over it. But it’s difficult to sue someone over slander if what that person says is true.
I don’t think the Team want to see ANY of this in court.
Alan F says:
Pamela Gray,
So have they indeed shifted focus to developing critical thinking skills in America? That’s not the case here in Canada. Watching twenty somethings reach for a calculator for basic math or regurgitating verbatim read text in obvious absence of comprehension is really getting annoying here in the real world where what has been written of and what actually is are usually two different things.
No, they have not. What they have done is define a specific set of criteria, and they follow up by teaching specifically to that criteria.
As the father of three school-aged children, I can speak to this first-hand. There’s a reason we homeschool.
I believe I have read all of the comments here, and also at RC. (Interesting to note that RC currently has what I would consider to be a paucity of comment in comparison to here [10%], and of that perhaps 1/4 are critical and counter to Gavin’s position.) (By the way, it is also interesting to note that Gavin finds the Jones e-mail to be ill-advised but is silent as to whether or not the forwarding of it was equally so.) One thing stands out: nowhere on either site do I recall seeing the word ethics mentioned. In my own little public world, a good sense of ethics means avoiding the appearance of impropriety. In a broader sense, it is defined as doing the right thing even when no one is looking.
I cannot/will not ascribe motivation to any of the players, or chime in as to legalities, possible scenarios, obfuscating remarks, etc. as many here have done. Rather, I would just want to know if, given the definitions above, anyone involved would have altered their behavior had they relied solely upon their own sense of ethics. That would tell me more than anything.
man, oh man …
the emails are “science” at its finest …
Bigdinny says:
I believe I have read all of the comments here, and also at RC. … One thing stands out: nowhere on either site do I recall seeing the word ethics mentioned.
I feel I must point out that it HAS been mentioned in the comments here, at least a few times. Leaving out those mentions where it clearly doesn’t fit the context, you still have:
Bill Illis: March 8, 2011 at 12:11 pm (albeit in an odd way)
Mike Lorrey: March 9, 2011 at 4:15 am
JEM: March 9, 2011 at 3:50 pm
John Trigge: March 9, 2011 at 8:22 pm
Al Gored: March 9, 2011 at 11:25 pm
So, definitely part of the discussion here. Can’t speak for RC.