I own an electric car (on my second one now) that I use for around town. It’s fine for short jaunts, which is the majority of driving. However the limiting factor is of course the battery and the range associated with it. While I can get about 40 miles of city driving, I could probably double that with a lighter, more efficient battery. While I know some people pooh-pooh electric cars, I think mine is rather fun. With gas prices headed toward $5 a gallon, I’ll have even more fun.
My electric car, shown above – a bit like a “smart car”, but slightly larger. My first was little more than a glorified golf cart. This one is full featured.
From the American Chemical Society
New high-performance lithium-ion battery ‘top candidate’ for electric cars
Scientists are reporting development of an advanced lithium-ion battery that is ideal for powering the electric vehicles now making their way into dealer showrooms. The new battery can store large amounts of energy in a small space and has a high rate capacity, meaning it can provide current even in extreme temperatures. A report on this innovation appears in ACS’ Journal of the American Chemical Society.
Bruno Scrosati, Yang-Kook Sun, and colleagues point out that consumers have a great desire for electric vehicles, given the shortage and expense of petroleum. But a typical hybrid car can only go short distances on electricity alone, and they hold less charge in very hot or very cold temperatures. With the government push to have one million electric cars on U.S. roads by 2015, the pressure to solve these problems is high. To make electric vehicles a more realistic alternative to gas-powered automobiles, the researchers realized that an improved battery was needed.
The scientists developed a high-capacity, nanostructured, tin-carbon anode, or positive electrode, and a high-voltage, lithium-ion cathode, the negative electrode. When the two parts are put together, the result is a high-performance battery with a high energy density and rate capacity. “On the basis of the performance demonstrated here, this battery is a top candidate for powering sustainable vehicles,” the researchers say.
The authors acknowledge funding from WCU (World Class University) program through the Korea Science and Engineering Foundation.
ARTICLE FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE “An Advanced Lithium Ion Battery Based on High Performance Electrode Materials”
DOWNLOAD FULL TEXT ARTICLE http://pubs.acs.org/stoken/presspac/presspac/full/10.1021/ja110522x
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I loved browsing through the trolls scratching and spitting over Anthony’s electric car. They’re so deep into their knee-jerk prejudices that they can’t hear the voice of reason. “But can you carry a load of gravel in it?” Yeah, Nimrod, good point. “But I have to drive 50 miles to take a leak!” There’s a real debate winner.
The truth is that this site is dragged down by the clown posters it attracts. You can hear the talk-radio moron in the background when you read what they write. If I didn’t know anything about the climate debate and I came straight to the WUWT comment section, I’d run screaming and sign up with the Climate Panic squad. It’s a shame, because I usually always find Anthony interesting and reasonable.
This was one I’ve been waiting for, I read this when if first came out and was repeated by Rustum Roy, a distinguished, if somewhat loopy, and recently deceased, material science guy. I have literally heard nothing about it since, not even ridicule or derision.
Combustable salt water.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/09/070913-burning-water.html
Well we are a three car family; one each, so that each of us can go to where we have to go each and every day. There are no trains that go to where we want to go. There is no such thing as public transportation; what prevents us from having public transportation; public anything for that matter, is public servants unions. When you are most dependent on their “public service”, they go on strike. That is NOT a reliable system; so I don’t use it or depend on it.
So we have one car that is a 1995, and one a 1996 (mine) and one that is a 1997. I don’t want and cannot afford any extra cars; I can’t even afford to replace any one of the three we already have. Mine already has over a quarter million miles on it.
That said, I am all in favor of anybody buying and driving anything that is street leagal that they want. Knock yourself out in your Hummer, if you can afford it.
I once owned a 1956 Jaguar XK-140 hard top coupe. The last good Jaguar they ever built. Mine had the special edition high compression engine that put out 210 Hp. The standard engine was 180 Hp. Mine could climb trees in first gear, and had an overdrive unit as well.
Nowadays, you can buy a basic Honda Civic with a 300 Hp Vee six engine, just for going to the grocery store.
I should be able to drive the family back and forth to LA, with no more than 100 HP, and do it with ordinary non-oxygenated 87 octane gasoline, and at least 35, maybe 40 mpg.
The Tesla is a joke; but if you can afford one; go buy one; just don’t expect me to subsidize it for you. You would think that silicon valley would be ground zero for political and fiscal conservatism, with more entrepeneurs per square foot, than almost any other place on earth. But actually, about 99% of them are straight line socialists; who feed on the taxpayer largesse, to fund their pipe dreams.
I was just noticing at lunchtime, when I stopped at the local Starbucks for my lunch time decaf. Si Valley, has not changed one iota in 45 years. Back then, all the Fairchild engineers, would go to Walker’s Wagon wheel, on Ellis Street, for Lunch and then happy hour. So they would all sit around and talk out loud about their latest Op-Amp product, or their fledgeling MOS process. Later on, the National Semi, engineers would join in, and bluntly ask you about your new N-channel MOS, or Ion Implant process. If you declined, they would simply say:- Might as well tell me, because I can just take out one of your wafer fab girls and she will tell me. Silly juveniles didn’t seem to understand that the company that paid their salary, might enjoy a six month profitable market window, when that new Op amp hit the street, and after that it would be dog eat dog price war.
So they would happily give away that six month edge just to sound and look big to the office girls or the fab ladies; or the other young turks.
Well the same thing goes on today at Starbucks; everybody talking out loud or working on their company iPaeioud on some secret marketting deal or other company secrets. When somebody around me starts yakkiing out loud on their Raspberry, I simply inform them that I work part time for the Federal Government, and I sit around and listen to people’s telephone calls.
That sometimes shuts them up. Of course I don’t tell them that I work for the Feds, up to Tax freedom day, or that I don’t have time to record their phone childishness.
Now there’s a chap there every day, who is reading a book on particle Physics; the real thing; I haven’t yet asked him if he is working on some post grad study; but his work is quite safe; the office ladies who look over his shoulder have no idea what Feynman diagrams are; so they think he’s some kind of total geek. He probably is; and seems like a very nice chap as well.
Yes the whole place is full of naive juveniles from all over the world, and all seem to think that the taxpayer should buy into their dream states.
But the expectations of public servants, are going to drive all high tech industries out of si-valley, even out of the State of California; and those jobs are never coming back. This will become the leaf blowing capital of the world; anyone who can steal a leaf blower or lawn mower out of your garage, can set up in business annoying the neighborhood every Sunday morning.
You really shouldn’t knock what you haven’t tried. As for the rest of your suggestion, it is idiotic. You sound like a person from the 19th century knocking the original automobile, espousing on the merits of a horse. – Anthony
Ok Anthony,
Why exactly are you using this vehicle. If it’s not for the feelgood save the planet idea then that’s fine. You are doing it for the fun. But this ‘fun’ carries a hefty price tag for no benefits to yourself apart from the ‘fun’. I would never try to stop anyone spending their own money in whatever way that they wish to. I have two young children that would swear that the best possible use of their pocket money is to subscribe to Moshi-Monsters, and they would say that this it the best thing ever created.
I can only assume that both yourself and my children are having a bit of fun. In every other way it makes no sense whatsoever. In contrast to you suggestion, I would prefer to liken myself to a person from the 19th century knocking the merits of a three legged horse.
Phil
REPLY: Why do people buy speedboats when they can sail or row, why do midlife men buy muscle cars or roadsters? It’s fun. But I’m going beyond that. I’m learning useful things, and I may just be able to do some engineering that will turn a profit for me. If not it is no worse than spending money on Moshi-monsters, whatever those are. – Anthony
JC says:
February 23, 2011 at 1:15 pm
“Thanks for the link to ACS at the beginning. This new battery from the folks at MIT blows away the Moore’s law for battery technology.”
There is no “Moore’s Law” for battery technologies. All occurences of such exponential growth (transistor size, CPU power, memory size, harddisk size, communication bandwith…) happen in information technologies. Battery chemistry or energy density are completely different beasts.
Pierre Gosselin,
Can’t you just see the future headlines. ‘Greens oppose electric vehicles. The downsides are just too great’?
Just like they promoted biofuels until they became a reality and the downsides became apparent. Then they tried to maintain they always had had doubts.
These guys are as bad as politicians.
I think everyone should drive whatever motive-power vehicle they want. My husband and I have four vehicles, which serve four distinct uses. I also have a small foldaway electric scooter (for sidewalk driving), stashed in my going-to-work car, which I use to get from the parking lot in to the guard station of the place I work. Which is anywhere from 1/4 mile to a full mile. I am unable to walk very fast, so it is almost necessary to have something that can go about 15 mph (and there are some people who can almost keep up with me, the rotters).
Everyone has different needs and situations. It is good to have these discussions so we can all remember that. If the economy keeps going south, we might all end up in ox-carts anyway.
DirkH:
You are correct about Moore’s Law. I did not word that well.
REPLY: Why do people buy speedboats when they can sail or row, why do midlife men buy muscle cars or roadsters? It’s fun. But I’m going beyond that. I’m learning useful things, and I may just be able to do some engineering that will turn a profit for me. If not it is now worse than spending money on Moshi-monsters, whatever those are. – Anthony
Ok Anthony,
I’m getting a better idea of where you are are coming from. I’m not anti-planet, I have a sailboat with solar panels and a wind turbine. I’m just very realistic about their contribution to the total daily requirements. To bridge that gap I have a 10kw diesel genny to charge my 24v 1000 kW hr battery bank.
In terms of cars, if you are a city dweller then you may be able to make it work. As an example as to why it would never work for me and many other rural people. Last Friday, I drove 14 miles to take my 3 children to their Karate lessons. Immediately after the lessons, I drove 320 miles to visit Granny for the weekend. On the Monday I drove 320 miles back. On the Tuesday, I drove 125 miles to work. On the Friday, I’ll drive 125miles home.
I would spend more time charging my batteries than traveling! I think electric cars would work well in city zones where all other means of transport are prohibited.
Phil
Since no one else has brought it up. There is a 100% certainty that the planet will run out of cheap oil. Probably soon. The crew that hang out at http://www.theoildrum.com (Great technical articles on energy at their site BTW) tend to be certain that it is happening now, and many of them seem to be disappointed when they get up in the morning and the lights still work. I’m not that pessimistic. But I think that the more optimistic projections like those of the EIA greatly underestimate future demand from the 5 billion folks who do not live in more or less developed countries.
So, I would not be terribly surprised to find that in a decade or two, hydrocarbon fuels are a lot more expensive than folks are used to, and sporadic shortages may well be a problem. In that context, electric cars — or maybe plug in hybrids — would make a lot of sense for many folks.
Time will tell.
The problem with lithium batteries is there is insufficient capacity in the lithium mining industry to accept a large expansion in consumption. It takes about 15 years to get a new mining project going for anything other than gold, coal or iron ore (since these are easy to extract).
The rude law of supply and demand will instantly mug EV’s if any fool politician tries to mandate an expansion in their use. Last year the price of rare earths went up by 10 times, not because they are rare, but because the mining industry can’t keep up, due to green tape & red tap. Same goes for anything except the most common of elements. As soon as the price goes up significantly it makes an EV uneconomic compared to almost anything else – remember wood burning cars in WW2 anyone?
Same goes for recycling. There is no meaningful lithium recycling industry now, so the production bottleneck if Li EV’s are expanded massively would not be fixed by recycling. Recycling is usually more expensive than primary extraction, so it would need the price to rise even higher before someone could afford to stump up the capital for a new (and risky) plant.
If a massive expansion of EV’s is required (I personally think not) then the ONLY battery system which can feasibly avoid massive price spiking problems is sodium-sulfur, since these elements are so common and massively used their prices will not be sensitive. Unfortunately sodium-sulfur batteries have certain problems which make their use in mass produced EV’s undesirable.
This is why no one has heard much about fuel-cell vehicles for a while – the cost of the platinum or palladium used in them has risen so much they are just not economically feasible.
Here in Europe there are now a set of Diesel powered cars that outperform the available hybrids without the complexity that hybrids involve. I am considering buying a Skoda Octavia which averages 74 miles per gallon – similar in size and claimed consumption to the latest Toyota Prius – except that you actually get near the claimed mileage for the Skoda, unlike the Toyota. Skoda also have a smaller car – the Fabia – which averages 83 miles per gallon.
With cars as efficient as these, do electric cars have many advantages?
I live 40 miles from the nearest big town and it seems that no EV will get me there and back on one charge so shopping could take me all day but my classic 85 Sirocco will get me there no prob it starts in the cold it has a great heater and does about 35 mpg 45 on a long run it also cost £250 to buy and £100 to insure and my zx10 super bike is a thousand times better and sorry but no amount of greenwash will ever get me to give up! cold dead fingers and all that !!!.
Now a leaf is what £23.000 even with a £5.000 subsidy and a Tesla £88.000 + thousands for the charger! how long do the ones like me at the bottom of the pile have to wait to see these cars at about our price band 10/ 20 years/ never? what the hell will the battery’s be like by then ? as the packs cost thousands to replace who the hell would want to take that loss for a service and then sell the car for 400 notes? who will pay for the new infrastructure that will have to cover huge areas of the country to recharge these cars? will EV owners be happy to be taxed more to fund cars for poorer workers who get minimum wage but still need to travel In an age when the transport system mostly goes no where near where you work and cannot cope even before you shove many more of car drivers off the road by taxes and costs in the greenish cause ? who will pick up the bill when the duty on petrol falls and governments look to make it up? only the EV owners? or everyone even if they cannot afford this electric new future and may not even want it
Can’t wait for the post with the electric car details. I want one too, for my daily 10 mile commute. $10/week would be awesome. I don’t care about the carbon footprint, real or imagined.
How heavy are the batteries? I have a 70 litre gas tank in my wagon. That will take me up to 800km, fully loaded, which is cool. But my point is that will weigh, on average, more than 30 kg.
Are EV batteries really heavier than 30 kg? I did a quick search, and a lot of people are talking about how heavy they are, but not exactly how much they weigh (if you see what I mean).
I have read quite a few comments but not them all – so apologies if someone has already asked…but this is directed at Anthony (obviously)
1) but what is the expected life of your batteries?
2) how many charges per week are you doing?
3) how much will replacement batteries cost when due?
4) what is the capital cost of the batteries per ‘mile’ of usage?
I am asking genuinely – as I have just recently purchased a 1.2TDi diesel car and can get 80+ mpg – which in UK terms, works out at less than 7 pence per mile.
If your batteries are say $10k to replace and you do 10000 miles per year for 5 years before replacement thats 20cents per mile? So my query is – is it (going to be)economical?
Phil M2,
A good portion of the world can only afford a single vehicle, and it has to do everything.
For those of us who can afford to have multiple vehicles a lot of savings can come from choosing the vehicle that fits the purpose.
I have an SUV. I need an SUV for all the reasons others have said.
I also have a scooter that gets 80MPG.
I use the SUV when I need an SUV, I use the scooter when a scooter will do.
What’s wrong with having the ‘right tool’ for the job.
If I could find an electric car for $10K I would buy one for the Mrs’s.
And speaking of wood burning WW2 cars, what do I see but Chiefio has a whole article on them today!
Mike Edwards says:
February 23, 2011 at 2:20 pm
yep – thats what I have bought – a skoda fabia estate – and it’s pretty damn good to be fair. emissions are supposed to be 89g/km – so no road tax – no congestion charge (if I lived in London – which I don’t) and on a long run, I am getting at least 70mpg.
It’s not flash – it’s not fast – but it gets from a to b and in reasonable comfort. I am NOT a greenie at all – but I AM a hard cash strapped self employed guy who could do with saving on his monthly fuel bill!
“”””” Bruce of Newcastle says:
February 23, 2011 at 2:17 pm
The problem with lithium batteries is there is insufficient capacity in the lithium mining industry to accept a large expansion in consumption. It takes about 15 years to get a new mining project going for anything other than gold, coal or iron ore (since these are easy to extract).
The rude law of supply and demand will instantly mug EV’s if any fool politician tries to mandate an expansion in their use. Last year the price of rare earths went up by 10 times, not because they are rare, but because the mining industry can’t keep up, due to green tape & red tap. Same goes for anything except the most common of elements. As soon as the price goes up significantly it makes an EV uneconomic compared to almost anything else – remember wood burning cars in WW2 anyone? “””””
Well I don’t remember any wood burning cars; but I clearly remember a number of cars; typically Detroitosaurus Maximus;; which were quite rare iN New Zealand (farmers had them) and they were all fitted with “charcoal burners”, which hung on the outside of the bonnet, on the driver side, maybe 15 inches tall, and 5-6 inches diameter, with a pipe for the unnatural gas from heating the coke, to go into the “carburettor”. Don’t remeber how long it took from a cold start. But rubber tires were the big limiter not fuel. Needed the rubber for all of those Spitfires, and Lancasters.
If I could find an electric car for $10K I would buy one for the Mrs’s.
I’d buy one each for the kids 🙂
I have a pushbike which I use when it’s only a few miles and I’m not in a hurry and have nothing to carry. I just wish I had the time to use it more often as I would be far slimmer than I am.
I cannot see the point of a car that means I would have buy another car for my longer journeys (about 24 longer journeys per year), or choose to suffer a mode of transport which would get me from my home in Cumbria, to London, slower than a horse and cart, in a vehicle that is less environmentally friendly than my little efficient diesel car. It would take a week to get to London by electric car, more so in the winter when the batteries are far less capable of holding a charge.
I really wish that they would stop wasting billions on utterly useless electric cars and finally develop hydrogen cars.
A surprising solution to fuel efficiency over longer journeys comes when you consider that although cars may achieve a high number of MPG, they are bound to follow roads which rarely go significantly close to a straight-line route, end-to-end of a journey.
http://www.parajetautomotive.com/
Not quite fully developed as anything other than a toy, but the first practical flying car. Could easily replace the sports car with a simple practical body.
Will the electric car be a good answer in times of shortage of energy? I don’t think so.
Diesel cars transmit about 40% of the energy of the fuel in mechanical energy.
And what is the efficiency of EV’s? The energy for electric cars has to be generated.
– The return of the conversion of fuel into electricity (in power stations) is about 40%.
– During the transport of electricity there is a loss of about 7%. Return: 93%.
– Transformation from high tension to the low tension of your battery (feel the warmth of your battery charger): 25%. Return: 75%.
– Loss of energy in the battery: 28%. Return: 72%
– Conversion of electric power into mechanical power of your EV: return of 90%.
Total return is: 90 % of 72% of 75% of 93% of 40% is 18%!!
And I did not mention the energy needed for heating in winter…
If, in the future, generating stations will be more efficient (60% instead of 40%), the total return would be 27% (instead of 18%).
The environmental pollution of batteries is disquieting. What will happen with all these old batteries within 5 to 10 years? The ‘cradle to cradle’ principle of Michael Braungart should be aimed for: “every material becomes beneficial for the next process.”
A good reason to use electric cars is to reduce air pollution. In many cities of Europe, this is a huge problem.
Now, in our crazy times of CO2 hysteria, the goverments are promoting electric cars. It is not sure at all that electric cars will reduce CO2.
In the near future, it is to expect that energy saving methods will again become important. The governments will no longer be able to subsidize the electric cars.
Electric vehicles was the subject for my electrical engineering thesis 40 odd years ago. At that time the revolution going on in solid state electronics meant that control systems were becoming quite efficient even extending to practical regenerative braking. Then as now, electric vehicles were practical (unsubsidised) for a variety of short trip niche applications.
But even in those days battery energy storage capability represented the main limitation and from what I can see that is still the case. It seems that the exotic battery designs being trialed presently have big problems providing a cost effective outcome in terms service life in cold and hot environments, discharge capability in cold and hot ambients and the general weight/performance/life trade-off.
Notwithstanding, if electric cars or hybrids can compete on a level playing field with conventional I.C. cars, that’s good. I do however object to the government’s hand in my pocket to fund them.