Dr. Curry Warms the Southern Ocean

UPDATE: 8/18 10:30AM I spoke with Dr. Judith Curry by telephone today, and she graciously offered the link to the full paper here, and has added this graphic to help clarify the discussion. I have reformatted it to fit this presentation format (side by side rather than top-bottom) While this is a controversial issue, I ask you please treat Dr. Curry with respect in discussions since she is bending over backwards to be accommodating. – Anthony

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[Update] My thanks to Dr. Curry for showing the graphic above, as well as for her comment below and her general honesty and willingness to engage on these and other issues. She should be a role model for AGW supporters. I agree totally with Anthony’s call for respect and politeness in our dealings with her (as well as with all other honest scientists who are brave enough to debate their ideas in the blogosphere). I also commend the other author of the study, Jiping Liu, for his comments below.

However, as my Figure 2 below clearly shows, any analysis of the HadISST data going back to 1950 is meaningless for the higher Southern latitudes. The HadISST data before about 1980 is nonexistent or badly corrupted for all latitude bands from 40°S to 70°S. As a result, although the HAdISST graphic above looks authoritative, it is just a pretty picture. There are five decades in the study (1950-1999). The first three of the decades contain badly corrupted or nonexistent data. You can’t make claims about overall trends and present authoritative looking graphics when the first three-fifths of your data is missing or useless. – willis

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Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach

Anthony has posted here on a new paper co-authored by Judith Curry of Georgia Tech, entitled “Accelerated warming of the Southern Ocean and its impacts on the hydrological cycle and sea ice”. The Georgia Tech press release is here. Having obtained the paper courtesy of my undersea conduit (h/t to WS once again), I can now comment on the study. My first comment is, “show us the data”. Instead of data, here’s what they start with:

Kinda looks like temperature data, doesn’t it? But it is not. It is the first Empirical Orthogonal Function of the temperature data … the original caption from the paper says:

Figure 1. Spatial patterns of the first EOF mode of the area-weighted annual mean SST south of 40 °S. Observations: (A) HadISST and (B) ERSST for the period 1950–1999. Simulations of CCSM3 (Left) and GFDL-CM2.1 (Right): (C, D) 50-year PIcntrl experiment (natural forcing only),

Given the title of “Accelerated warming”, one would be forgiven for assuming that (A) represents an actual measurement of a warming Southern Ocean. I mean, most of (A) is in colors of pink, orange, or red. What’s not to like?

When I look at something like this, I first look at the data itself. Not the first EOF. The data. The paper says they are using the Hadley Centre Sea Ice and Sea Surface Temperature (HadISST) data. Here’s what that data looks like, by 5° latitude band:

Figure 2. HadISST temperature record for the Southern Ocean, by 5° latitude band. Data Source.

My first conclusion after looking at that data is that it is mostly useless prior to about 1978. Before that, the data simply doesn’t exist in much of the Southern Ocean, it has just been shown as a single representative value.

So if I had been a referee on the paper my first question would be, why do the authors think that any analysis based on that HadISST data from 1950 to 1999 has any meaning at all?

Next, where is the advertised “Accelerated warming of the Southern Ocean”? If we look at the period from 1978 onwards (the only time period with reasonable data over the entire Southern Ocean), there is a slight cooling trend nearest Antarctica, and no trend in the rest of the Southern Ocean. In other words, no warming, accelerated or otherwise.

Finally, I haven’t even touched on the other part of the equation, the precipitation. If you think temperature data is lacking over the Southern Ocean, precipitation data is much worse. The various satellite products (TRMM, SSM/i, GPCC) give widely varying numbers for precipitation in that region, with no significant correlation between any pair (maximum pairwise r^2 is 0.06).

My conclusion? There is nowhere near enough Southern Ocean data on either side of the temperature/precipitation equation to draw any conclusions. In particular, we can say nothing about the period pre-1978, and various precipitation datasets are very contradictory after 1978. Garbage in, you know what comes out …

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Edouard
August 18, 2010 5:52 am

Publishing a comment about Judith Curry without contacting her is very unfair. She is one among hundreds of climate scientists who was nice to us sceptical laymen. Why do you do this?
Very very bad manners folks!

Tom_R
August 18, 2010 5:53 am

Good analysis Willis.
I raised my doubts about the quantity and quality of the pre-satellite SST data in the original thread. While your analysis can only speak of the quantity, I doubt that a sailor taking temperature measurements would have been overly concerned about getting them exact to the nearest degree when facing freezing winds while the ship swayed 30 degrees in the storms around Cape Horn.
I also questioned the pre-Argo salinity data. (‘to depths of more than 1000 meters’ !) I would have looked deeper into that source, but the reference paper is behind a pay wall.

Tom_R
August 18, 2010 5:55 am

>> Ian W says:
August 18, 2010 at 5:00 am
Climate science is the subject of choice for those who find sociology too rigorous. <<
ROFLMAO

Tom_R
August 18, 2010 6:00 am

>> David Holliday says:
August 18, 2010 at 4:10 am
So in the North, warmer ocean temperatures are causing the Arctic ice extent to shrink (even though DMI temperatures are below average and freezing) while in the South warmer ocean temperatures are causing the Antarctic ice extent to expand. Not my conclusion, just restating what some other posters have argued.
I guess it’s because everything is upside down there. It must work opposite to up here. Or maybe it’s because when you have a foregone conclusion, all your arguments support it, whether they are consistent or not. <<
Cold always sinks to the bottom. What's the problem?
/sarc

Shevva
August 18, 2010 6:05 am

nevket240 says:
August 17, 2010 at 9:55 pm
AGW, not Climate Change, always was and always will be a Government sponsored fraud. The term Climate Change is a bob both ways.
I would be asking JC to show us both hands. Me thinks there will be a little finger missing. This ‘paper’ appears to be a ‘sorry’ note. As in an apology.
regards
——————————-
Nail/head, grant money’s disappearing from her and she needs something that will prove she still believes the titanic can be saved and is still playing with the rest of the band on the deck, lucky with my double GCSE in science I did a quick check on the ship before boarding and am now happily watching from shore as they all run around on deck trying to save their grants.

August 18, 2010 6:08 am

Hey Dr.Curry, WE NEED THAT WARMTH OF YOURS DOWN HERE, PLEASE, IF YOU FIND IT, SEND IT RIGHT AWAY!

Jason
August 18, 2010 6:11 am

In light of Dr Curry’s stance on climate science, I am stunned at this paper. She called out the models and the data accuracy. Now she uses said stuff to produce this paper.
Why?

August 18, 2010 6:14 am

The study was published.
I don’t see any comment that Willis was sent a pre-publication copy for approval, and I doubt that his opinion mattered to them. He does not have a union card. That might change — but I doubt it.
I don’t see how it can be rude to comment publicly on a public (published) document.
Perhaps the issue is that he has now gained some prominence in “auditing” the validity of the numerical and logical analysis. When people become concerned about what he might have to say then they will send him courtesy copies in advance of publication and solicit his comments. To do so, however, would recognize his membership in the club or on “The Team” as it were.
Think about it. 🙂

August 18, 2010 6:15 am

BTW, everyday we can see the temperatures of the antarctic penninsula at the chilean international TV station TVN, at 23:59 GMT (end of their news program) and :
http://tvn.cl/tvtiempo/

ZZZ
August 18, 2010 6:27 am

I like the phrase argument from incredulity, because that’s my first reaction to almost everything that the alarmist climatologists claim to have measured. How can anyone believe that what alarmists claim to be true can be estimated accurately with scattered local measurements at a few convenient spots? The most believable number they have is probably the amount of CO2 produced by fossil fuels, and that only because it comes from economic statistics. But even there, just because something’s been successfully sold doesn’t mean it’s been successfully burned — a very poorly known fraction of the stuff is spilled or allowed to evaporate, and what person or organization is likes to confess to being sloppy and wasteful? Everything else is randomly (in the sense that we cannot mathematically predict where it must be) and fractally distributed over the earth’s surface. Take, as just one example, the estimates of how much CO2 enters and leaves the earth’s atmosphere over the course of a year. Start with CO2 absorption by living organisms. You have smallish areas where relatively large amounts of absorption per acre occurs (e.g. jungles) and very large areas where relatively little absorption per acre occurs (e.g. blue-water sea surface). Can you, for that latter type of surface, multiply that very large area in acres by the small and inaccurately known average absorption per acre and get any sort of trustworthy estimate of the total CO2 absorption? Remember, that small and hard to measure average CO2 absorption per acre has to be well known for a very large area before the small and large numbers can be multiplied together to get an answer worth taking seriously. And of course the CO2 metabolism of living organisms changes with the weather, among many other things, so the fractal distribution is changing fractally with time — and that source of uncertainty exists everywhere living organisms grow. The amount of CO2 absorbed or released by the earth’s oceans through gas exchange is supposed to be known because we know the composition of sea water and the relevant temperatures. Really? Can calm beakers of sea water in a scientist’s laboratory, held at a steady temperature, be used to predict the gas-exchange behavior of the earth’s oceans — oceans that heat up non-uniformly during the day and cool non-uniformly during the night, oceans that are criss-crossed by everlasting wind and waves and at irregular intervals are whipped to a froth by passing storms? Rain falls from clouds, picking up CO2 on the way down and depositing it, dissolved, into the ocean. Can you imagine trying to estimate accurately the amount of rain falling into the earth’s oceans? Please don’t make me laugh! The amount of CO2 produced by natural sources (e.g. volcanos above and below the sea) is also randomly and fractally distributed in a way that changes randomly and fractally with time. It’s a good thing we have such accurate knowledge about all the sources of vulcanism under the earth’s oceans. Oh, you don’t thing so? Neither do I. It is no accident that Steve McIntyre led the charge against bogus climate science. With his background in mining he knows from case study after case study how difficult it is to determine the true distribution of an economically valuable mineral before actually constructing the mine. Mining companies routinely drill hundreds of small, narrow, relatively cheap boreholes in the land they intend to mine, then look at the concentrations of the mineral of interest inside the boreholes, and from that try to decide whether the proposed mine makes economic sense. This is over areas of only a few hundred to a few thousand acres as opposed to the entire surface of the earth. The borehole sampling would be analogous to surface measurements of CO2 absorption or temperature by little local gas-meters or thermometers — if the CO2 absorption or the temperature, like the minerals under the ground, were not changing with time. And yet these mining companies, with all the economic incentive they have to get the answer right, time and again are surprised when they go ahead and build the mine, finding much more or much less than expected. The random, fractal nature of the mineral distribution defeats their best efforts to discover through little, local measurements the true amount of the mineral present under those few hundred or few thousand acres. Climatologists never do the equivalent of constructing a mine to check out their estimates and, as mentioned, what they try to estimate often changes randomly, rapidly, and fractally with time. Yes, I am incredulous that alarmist climatologists know with any significant accuracy what they claim to have estimated.

tarpon
August 18, 2010 6:42 am

The AGW crowd has a new ploy, baseline color shifting. See weather channel for details.

Jiping Liu
August 18, 2010 6:45 am

Southern Ocean Warming Issue
In this study, we only examined the dominant SST variability in the Southern Ocean using the Empirical Orthogonal Function (EOF) analysis. We performed the EOF analysis on the area-weighted annual-mean observed SST south of 40 °S for 1950–1999. The leading EOF modes of HadISST and ERSST show positive values extending from middle to high latitudes of the Southern Ocean, and negative values in the Antarctic and sub-Antarctic zones. The corresponding principle components (time series) show a substantial upward trend (statistically significant at the 99% confidence level). Thus, the observed SST pattern in the Southern Ocean during the second half of the 20th century is dominated by a broad-scale warming that accounts for one third of the total variance (28% for HadISST and 29% for ERSST).

JDN
August 18, 2010 6:56 am

Everyone mentions that she’s doing it for grant money. That may be so, but, what grants does she have? I only know how to search for NIH grants.
Can someone look that up so that we know if this paper is of her own recent volition or if she committed to studying it a while back and therefore must produce what she promised.

Jiping Liu
August 18, 2010 7:00 am

The leading SST EOF modes show that the strongest warming is in the middle latitudes of the Southern Ocean, and the warming is reduced poleward.

August 18, 2010 7:06 am

WillR says:
August 18, 2010 at 6:14 am
The study was published.
I don’t see any comment that Willis was sent a pre-publication copy for approval, and I doubt that his opinion mattered to them. He does not have a union card. That might change — but I doubt it.
I don’t see how it can be rude to comment publicly on a public (published) document.
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Anyone that knows anything about the current state of AGW/Skeptics should know that any published study will get publicly reviewed at MANY.MANY, sites like this. Not to hard to have “Google alerts” and the such !!

Jiping Liu
August 18, 2010 7:12 am

We confine the analysis to the period 1950–1999 due to large uncertainty associated with sparse in situ SST samplings in the Southern Hemisphere for the first half of the 20th century (Smith TM, Reynolds RW, 2003). Also, in this study, we identify the dominant coupled pattern between the ERA40’s precipitation minus evaporation(which starts from 1950s) and HadISST SST south of 40 °S.

August 18, 2010 7:12 am

When they start outputting Rohrschach blots and call them maps I quit. Somehow they think that because their computer can draw these blots the reader should be impressed. Well, I am not, and I resent paying taxes so that they have supercomputer time to make pretty pictures.

p.solar
August 18, 2010 7:21 am

Yes, I also noted the rather unusual colour sequence in the orthogonal whats-it plots.
The pink of light red would not nomally be between blue and yellow. This inversion has the effect of making the contour closest to zero (0-0.1) look “slightly hot” and lots of pink in southern ocean in plots A and esp B .
Since the tones do not look very continuous even on the legend strip , they won’t give a correct visual on the plots.
Odd choice. But since nearly all latt. bands seem to be cooling anyway this seems like a stack of smoke and mirrors to arrive at accelerated warming.

Jiping Liu
August 18, 2010 7:24 am

Model issue
To increase confidence in the interpretation of simulated SST variability, we restrict our analysis to two IPCC AR4 models (NCAR CCSM3 and GFDL CM2.1) that perform well in simulating the Southern Ocean climate as compared to other models, i.e., NCAR CCSM3 well simulates the observed Antarctic Oscillation and sea ice variability (Raphael M, Holland M, 2006). GFDL CM2.1 has peak winds close to the observed latitude and a reasonable wind stress over the Southern Ocean, fed with the right amount and properties of the North Atlantic Deep Water, resulting in near-observed ACC transport (Russell JL, Souffer RJ, Dixon KW, 2006).

richard telford
August 18, 2010 7:30 am

Bill Tuttle says:
August 18, 2010 at 4:45 am
So tell us, richard,
1 how can one *reasonably* claim to get a ± 0.06°C accuracy from an instrument (a water-temperature gauge in a ship’s boiler intake line) that can only be read to the nearest .5°C and may have an instrument error of another whole degree C, and
2. how can one *reasonably* claim to have measured the decadal temperature change in a standard 5° x 5° grid *at all* without ever having taken one single measurement in it?
————–
Since no demonstration I make against the creed would ever be accepted by the true believers here, I instead offer a simple way that Eschenbach could try to falsify the claims made in the paper instead of relying on incredulity. He appears to prefer his incredulity, perhaps his readers do to, than risk finding out that his test of reasonableness is little more useful that extispicy. The other reason for not attempting the analysis myself is that Eschenbach finds so many thinks incredulous that there is not time in the day to test them all.
I will however point out that the average of several measurements is much more precise that that of the original measurements.

Gail Combs
August 18, 2010 7:30 am

Willis Eschenbach says:
August 18, 2010 at 12:16 am
…. Gille, 2002: Warming of the Southern Ocean Since the 1950s. Science, Vol. 295. no. 5558, pp. 1275 – 1277
In fact, worse, because these were mid-depth temperature readings from 700 to 1,100 metres, which were undoubtedly much less common than surface temperatures….
… so that’s less than two thirds of a sample per month in that critical part of the Southern Ocean nearest Antarctica. They claim an accuracy of ± 0.06° C for their 1950 results …
This type of huge underestimation of the true error in various estimations of temperatures, temperature trends, proxy calculations, and other climate measurements is a recurring problem in climate science.
_____________________________________________________________
Truer words were never spoken.
It has been my main reason for being cynical of anything published by these so called “scientists”… They seemed to have missed the course work on significant figures not to mention statistics.
[I reserve the word skeptical for work that is actually science, I used the word cynical for propaganda dressed up to resemble science.]

Tom_R
August 18, 2010 7:47 am

>> Jiping Liu says:
August 18, 2010 at 6:45 am
Southern Ocean Warming Issue
We performed the EOF analysis on the area-weighted annual-mean observed SST south of 40 °S for 1950–1999. <<
You still haven't addressed the principal criticisms:
1. SST measurements before 1979 (pre-satellite) are almost nonexistent which means they poorly represent what's going on in the Southern Ocean.
2. SST before 1979 also have questionable accuracy.
3. The ice area measurements are also only meaningful post-1979.
4. The salinity measurements are only accurate since Argo (2003?), or do you really believe that salinity measurements were made 'to below 1000 meters' to any significant amount before Argo?
If you limit the study to known valid measurements from 1979 to now, the SST are colder and the ice extent is greater, so there's NO PARADOX.

Jack Maloney
August 18, 2010 7:52 am

It is unfortunate that Judith Curry is both attacked and defended here. Dr. Curry has shown admirable openness, courage and honesty in the AGW debate, for which she should be applauded. But in discussing her paper here, she herself should be neither attacked nor defended. The best thing about WUWT is that it’s about the science, not the personalities.

Mac
August 18, 2010 8:00 am

HOCKEY STICK ALERT
Jiping Liu, “The corresponding principle components (time series) show a substantial upward trend”
“We have got you covered …………… move away from the methodology, slowly, with your hands up “

August 18, 2010 8:11 am

richard telford says:
August 18, 2010 at 1:06 am
Willis Eschenbach says:
August 18, 2010 at 12:16 am
Does anyone truly think that we can estimate the temperature of that huge swath of ocean to a ±0.06°C accuracy by taking a couple of temperature readings per month over thirty million square miles of ocean, bunched in the summer months, with each reading being taken in a very different place all around Antarctica?
—————-
Why don’t you test your hypothesis rather than arguing from incredulity? Download some model output, sample the model temperatures at an equivalent sampling rate to the observational data, then test how well you can reconstruct the model mean temperatures from your pseudo-observations.
Its an easy analysis to do, probably less than 50 lines of R code, and could prove your point. But perhaps you prefer to wallow in your logical fallacy.
I love how folks want me to do their investigation for them. But please, be my guest, don’t let me stop you … in any case, in that study I was discussing in that particular comment, there isn’t a word about model results, only observations, so I haven’t a clue what you are talking about.
Finally, I am not arguing from incredulity. I am applying the reasonableness test. Like I said, thirty million square miles of ocean, with two samples per month … sure, the stated error bounds of ±0.06° may well be the statistical error of their calculations. But if you believe that two temperature measurements per month, usually in widely separated locations, with few repeat measurements, are enough to tell us the average temperature of mid-depth ocean water over 15% of the surface of the earth to within ±0.06°C, I’m not sure what I can tell you.
But like I said, report back with your findings, if you’re right it shouldn’t take you long …
Interesting “urination match”. Misses an interesting point. Where is “Dr.” Curry’s data? Where is HER code?
Note the “completeness” of the Statistical Analysis paper at the top of WUWT…Science the way SCIENCE should be done.
I struggle with this all the time, i.e. the “old dinasour” approach of “limited information space”.
Get over it! Every DOCUMENT GENERATED, every bit of SCIENTIFIC WORK PERFORMED in 1945 could be put on ONE PC.
Likewise the CODING and the DATA for almost every analysis (except the “repeditive error adding stuff” of the “superduper monster money computers”…) can also be shared, distributed easily these days.
Dr. Curry, alas, is acting as A PERSON EDUCATED IN THE ’70’s, Phd’d in the ’80’s…and established in the ’90’s. Let’s see, 5 MB hard drives, 50 MB Hard drives and 500 MB hard drives.
Currently I have a terabyte drive on my primary machine. Hum, it can handle a fair amount of data.
Max