
I assume that everyone has seen the post on our website discussing the changes that NSIDC has instituted to make our sea ice data available again. I don’t want to repeat that, but I thought I would respond to some of the more general issues that came up in Anthony’s posts and accompanying comments. I thank Anthony for giving me this opportunity. I write here from my personal viewpoint and not in an official capacity as a representative of NSIDC or the University of Colorado.
I apologize for the error in our data and for the relative slowness in responding to it. I’m glad that so many people are interested in the data and I understand that seeing errors is frustrating and can undermine confidence in the data. Anthony is correct that many people do now pay close attention to our website and we do have a responsibility to attend to errors as fast as we can. We will try to do better in the future. There are two major points that I hope everyone can take away from this event:
(1) The error in no changed any of our conclusions about the long-term changes in Arctic sea ice. The ice extent is declining significantly and the ice is thinning.
(2) Errors like the one that occurred are part of the normal course of dealing with satellite data. We hope that they are rare, but they are not unexpected.
On the first point, there is no doubt; it is verified by numerous independent observations and is well-discussed in numerous places, including in the entries on our analysis web page.
On the second point, I think it is worth providing some background on satellite data and how it is processed, stored, and used by scientists, including those at NSIDC. In doing so, I’m not making excuses for the error in NSIDC’s data, but I hope I can help people understand how such errors are part of the scientific process of quality controlling and fine-tuning data and techniques to ultimately provide the best information possible to track climate change.
Climate science is focused on understanding long-term changes and the mechanisms that drive them. In terms of satellite data, this means taking great care and making the data as good as it can possibly be. The focus is on assuring a time series good enough to track potentially subtle trends. This involves careful quality control of data and developing and fine-tuning algorithms to convert raw satellite data into a useful climate parameter (such as sea ice extent). Like all of science this has traditionally been done slowly, methodically, and privately. And up until about ten years ago, there was no other choice but to move slowly because of severe constraints on computer processing speeds, limited data storage capacities, and difficulties in simply sharing data. One of the earliest papers to note the long-term decline in Arctic sea ice was published in 1999 (Parkinson et al., J. Geophysical Research); it was based on data only through 1996. It simply took that long to collect and carefully analyze the data, make sure algorithms were robust and stable, and get a paper through scientific peer-review.
Data distribution was also limited because of similar computational, storage, and distribution constraints. For example, NSIDC used to received updates every five years or so of final quality-controlled sea ice products. We would then distribute the data by mail on CD-ROM only to registered users.
Immediate data analysis was solely the province of operational centers, like the National Weather Service, who had special access to near-real-time data. Their focus was on getting only what was needed of any data before moving on to the next analysis or forecast cycle. Quality control was focused on catching major errors; smaller errors that didn’t significantly impact a short-term analysis were not caught or were ignored. There was no consideration given to the long-term context of the data, which were often not even saved.
There was a very clear delineation between science and operations.
Science is still done slowly and methodically, with final results disseminated the way they always have been – through peer-reviewed scientific journals. It still takes time to do final quality control on climate products. NSIDC now receives final sea ice data about once a year. But in the past ten years or so, access to data has changed dramatically. Computer processing power and data storage capacities have increased exponentially and high-speed internet has allowed near instantaneous distribution of data to a broad community. Satellite data that used to require days or weeks of processing and required dozens of tapes or CDs to store can now be processed in minutes, stored on a portable hard drive or even a memory stick, and distributed over the internet. This has been a boon to scientists who now have much faster and easier access to large amounts of data.
At the same time algorithms have matured and become more stable. This means that significant adjustments to the algorithms are not regularly needed and they can be run confidently on near-real-time data, with the understanding that the results may change during final quality-control. This has allowed to NSIDC implement a near-real-time version of the sea ice data. For the past several years this data has been freely distributed online for anyone who wished to use it, though the primary audience was scientists who would be familiar with associated caveats of using near-real-time data.
In this context, let me now move on to NSIDC and its Arctic Sea Ice News and Analysis web site. NSIDC is a science institution. Our mission is science and science support, not operational support for any kind of critical operational decisions (e.g., what regions are free enough of sea ice to be safely navigated). Because we must focus on science, the resources we can devote to near-real-time data production and analysis are limited. Nonetheless, as climate change became an important topic, it was clear that Arctic sea ice was a leading indicator of the observed changes. Since NSIDC stores and distributes the sea ice data, many people started to come to NSIDC scientists to ask about sea ice conditions and the implications for the climate. When 2005 set a record low summer extent, there was a lot of media attention; in response we issued a press release. Through summer 2006 we received many requests asking about how the ice was looking, both from the media and fellow scientists. As the summer wore on it started to feel a bit like being on a family road trip and having the kids in the back continually asking “are we there yet?” As summer 2007 started, it was a clear that a new record low was quite possible. The questions began again in earnest.
In the sense that science ultimately serves society, it was becoming apparent that scientists and the public were coming to expect a near-real-time analysis of Arctic sea ice conditions. In response, we decided to develop the website so that we could post occasional data updates and science-based discussion of the conditions. This worked quite well, but the summer of 2007 was so remarkable and Arctic sea ice had become such a big story both scientifically and in the public consciousness that we realized there would be the expectation to do even more during 2008. In response, in addition to our occasional summer posts of data and analysis, we decided to provide daily data updates and at least monthly analyses throughout the year. This decision was possible only because the products are mature and stable and further quality control to produce final data results in only minor changes. This was an added burden on NSIDC resources, but with automated processing the day-to-day impacts could be managed.
This all evolved in an ad hoc manner, with improvements made when we had resources available. Remember, none of this is NSIDC’s primary mission, which is to archive hundreds of cryospheric datasets and support peer-reviewed research. The sea ice analysis website is one of dozens of research and data management projects at NSIDC. People working on the web site often have to fit it in where and when they can amid other duties. There is no single person at NSIDC who works only or even primarily on the sea ice analysis page. This is not an ideal situation, but it is the only way we can support the analysis while still fulfilling all of our responsibilities.
This is one reason why we appeared slow to address the error last week. We have a group at NSIDC whose responsibility is to respond to user questions and comments on any of our hundreds of datasets. NSIDC’s standard is to provide a response to user inquiries within 24 hours during the business week. This is very quick for a science institution and NSIDC’s user services works very hard to always meet that standard. However, it is not particularly fast compared an operational center that works on a 24/7 schedule. We will work to put into place better QC measures and more streamlined procedures to catch future errors more quickly, but we simply do not have the resources to work in an operational environment.
This of course begs the question: why don’t operational centers do this instead of NSIDC? Operational centers do indeed provide near-real-time sea ice data. However, I believe there are a couple reasons why operational centers are not poised to provide the kind of science-based support found at NSIDC. First, their only priority is on supporting critical users with the most useful operational information about sea ice – e.g., ships sailing in and near ice-infested waters; their data is not well-suited for easy understanding by a general audience. Second, operational centers are focused on near-real-time support, not on climate issues. Thus their expertise in putting near-real-time data in the context of long-term climate is limited.
NSIDC and other climate data/research centers (e.g., NASA GISS) do have that expertise. And that is crucial. It is only through evaluation of the near-real-time data in the context of the long-term climate that one can properly assess the relevance to climate change. This mixture of climate science and near-real-time data analysis is perhaps not optimal, but I think it is worthwhile.
The easy access to climate data has been a boon for scientists and I would argue it has also been a great benefit for society. Science ultimately serves society and quick and easy access to data provides quality up-to-date information on important issues, such as climate change. The problem is that such data can come to be viewed by journalists and other members of the public as completely routine and reliable. When small changes or errors occur, they may be given greater import than they deserve in terms of what they imply about climate change. This means there is a responsibility for places like NSIDC distributing data to thoroughly explain the data and respond quickly to any issues. I believe NSIDC does an excellent job in explaining the data through considerable documentation on all aspects of the sea ice data. However, in terms of responding to data issues, NSIDC and like centers have been slow to realize that the audience for such data has expanded beyond fellow scientists and informed journalists and that any issues need to be addressed as soon as possible lest they confuse or mislead the public. This is a difficult task for places like NSIDC, whose resources are limited and whose primary mission is not operational support. The recent data error has been a learning experience for those of us at NSIDC and we will try to do better.
I hope that this information gives people a greater appreciation for the hard-work done by my colleagues at NSIDC and an understanding of the difficulties inherent in supporting near-real-time data with limited resources amid myriad other responsibilities. Finally, I hope that people come away with a better sense of what goes into analyzing satellite data and how such data is so beneficial to our understanding of climate. Thank you.
Walt Meier
Mitchel44 (15:47:42) you could read the whole of the page:
Correcting the daily time series
The daily extent map now shows any areas of missing data as dark gray regions, speckles, or spider web patterns. However, in the time series chart we account for the missing data by averaging the extent for that region from the day before and the day after the gap, a mathematical technique called interpolation.
Walt Meier
Thank you for your direct commentary here. It is appreciated by all.
Walt,
It would seem that the amount of multi-year ice can increase substantially in just one year of low polar drift. Do you expect that the amount of multi-year ice at the end of this winter will be greater than it was at the end of last winter?
As the satellite pictures show an increase in ice coverage how can Walter Meier state it is declining when it is coming back.
Anthony
In the context of this thread can I suggest it might be worth making periodic references to Pen Hadow-my relatively near neigbour who is trekking to the post towing a radar device behind him to record the thickness of the ice.
As far as I can see that will merely record the thickness a few feet wide in a straight line from starting point to the north pole and wont touch the other 99.9% of ice not measured, but it is a serious and dangerous expedition that probably deserves a write up.
TonyB
The Rev. I apologize.
I am happy.
….”Ice thickness is a very difficult thing to measurements”.
3…..[ “Global sea ice” simply has no meaning in terms of climate change.
The Arctic and Antarctic are unique and separated environments that
respond differently…]….
Well:
there are years of misinformation.
today you do a good service to science
Maybe: I be dumb enough.
Thanks Dr Meier
Can anyone help me on this. I appreciate it is not specific (but is related) to this posting.
I see all sort of claims as to how much sea levels will rise if the ice melts, but they seem way over the top to me.
It seems there is about 1.8% of water locked up in ice on Greenland and Antartica, and that the average depth of the ocean is 1km. To me that would imply that if it all melted, sea levels would rise by 18 metres, and not the 60-100 metres I regularly see quoted about the media.
Further, the coastline of every country is not a cliff, it rises gradually from sea level, so as the sea rises it would have to cover a much greater area. Also, at the temperatures that would be required for this to occur, surely a lot of it would end up as water vapour. Would that not imply that sea level rises would be closer to say, 10 metres.
Lastly, are we really saying that all ice is going to melt, given that temperatures in those places are -50 degrees C. Even if the temperatures rose by 5C generally, and even say 10C at the poles, that would still leave it -40C. It has to be 0-1C to melt. On Mars, where there is nearly 100% CO2 in the atmosphere, and much hotter temperatures, there is still ice just under the ground at the poles.
This strikes me as one of the more egregious claims of GW alarmists, and yet I do not see it questioned much.
paulhan.
Thanks to Dr. Meier on the second point, That was the information I wanted to have.
On point one I do find strange the position that he needs to defend conclusions of NSIDC in regards to Arctic Ice extent trends. I do not think anyone seriously was saying that the rate of decline over the long term (as short of time period it actually represent geologically speaking) was affected by this instrument error. Has someone called into question their current assessments and calculation of the trend?
I think all here would agree the frustration in “long term trends” as a point of debate on sea ice is that we have no way of knowing if the trend is unusual, we have only one short time period to judge. Yet If I take the monthly chart, I can not help but make note of the reversal in extent loss as a point of interest to watch and learn what is influencing it, I do not look and say hey there is more ice extent, better put out a statement over and over and that it is meaningless.
Will it become a long term trend, will it stop, reverse? Only time will tell.
I’d just like to thank Dr. Meier for his response and for his open and detailed answers to further questions. Much appreciated, Dr. Meier!
The error in no changed any of our conclusions about the long-term changes in Arctic sea ice. The ice extent is declining significantly and the ice is thinning.
With respect, Dr Meier is merely reiterating what is little more than dogma.
The facts are that,
1. Summer Arctic sea ice extent has declined significantly in the last few years.
2. Winter Arctic sea ice extent has declined by far less.
http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/seasonal.extent.1900-2007.jpg
3. This means that if ‘record’ ice melt has occured then there must have been similarly ‘record’ ice freezing in order for the winter ice level to be maintained.
4. The ‘ice is thinning’ argument is mostly inference based on the melt of ‘old’ perennial ice and its replacement by new annual ice. If more ‘thinner’ new ice were indeed a factor in increasing ice melt we would see less new ice. In fact, last year (the latest data I have) we saw an increase in the new ice as Dr Meier himself reports.
http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/seasonal.extent.1900-2007.jpg
Further, on new ice replacing old ice; It’s likely this is a natural cycle of old ice being replaced every few years by new ice. If this weren’t true, we would see large areas of very old ice, which we don’t see (ie the old ice doesn’t exist). Hence old ice melts on a regular basis/cycle and is replaced by ‘thinner’ new ice. So it is likely the proportion of new ice and the thickness of new ice has no relevance to long(er) term sea ice trends.
More generally, this appears to be another example of natural variability being extrapolated out into the future and claimed as evidence of AGW.
What does?: Politics and Agenda
I must apologize to Dr. Meier, although I respect his posting here and acknowledgment, I find that by immediately citing to point (1) has discredited his means and motivation in my mind. It sounds way too much to me like “whoops, sorry about the sensor, but we still believe the ice is all going to melt and we’re all going to die” crap. I fully well respect the hard work (I too work very hard), the level of expertise that may be within NSIDC (I too have expertise), but the direction of the personal inferences imposed by this leaves me more unconformable than I was before. Perhaps I am just better at reading between the lines than most.
I am sorry, this just doesn’t get a passing grade from me.
Respectfully,
..
Whether you might cavil at some of the comments he makes Dr. Meier is to be congratulated on being forthright and open. Unlike many of his supposedly more important peers.
And to be fair to NSIDC they make their data freely available. Unlike some publicly funded researchers.
Now there is quite a lot I could say about the way NSIDC present some of their conclusions, analysis and so forth: so I am not going to.
I am merely going to remind you that the Arctic Ocean is effectually a largely enclosed sea subject to enormous variations from wind, current and so forth. To read anything into the variation in Arctic sea ice and extent from day to day or year to year or even decade to decade is an exercise in fatuity.
No matter we all do it, like the gambler obsessed with the next roll of the dice or the deal of the cards, like the stockmarket speculator who imagines examining the prices from day to day will lead to fortune.
I confess I do it myself, it’s like talking about the weather. By Jove have you seen yesterday’s drop in temperature on this, that or the other satellite data. What do you think it means?
Nothing at all of course: unless it’s caused by a nearby supernova or suchlike. In which case we will all know about it and in pretty short order.
Antarctica is a continent surrounded by sea and with a stable wind pattern. Things there probably happen very slowly: and anyway we have very little data about it.
By contrast things in the Arctic happen with great speed, it changes year on year, and from historical data going back some two hundred and fifty years we can suppose that the Arctic regions have been gradually warming for at least this length of time; but we don’t know by how much or whether this is a long term trend and linear or part of a cycle, or indeed anything else. Except to say that it is a bit warmer than it was back then.
So thank you Dr. Meier and this board but can I go back to sleep now?
Kindest Regards
While I appreciate how hard they work over there at NSIDC , I also work in data acquisition and processing.
On January 22, 2009 a poster on WUWT noted an overnight disappearance of a huge chunk of icw off Labrador. I regret I did not note his userid, but I have a screen capture of the comparison. (That’s significant because Cryosphere Today has “dissappeared” 2009 from their website.)
I take it that nobody over at NSIDC (or Cryosphere) actually looks at plot from today and that from yesterday and asks themselves “Does this make sense?”
As a man who has been held responsible for data quality for many years, I find that puzzling – nay, disturbing.
According to IPY (International Polar Year) ice is melting at both poles “faster than expected.” Given that global sea ice is normal, it would appear that they must not have been expecting very much melt, or that they are lacking in basic information which they could pick up easily from the UIUC web site.
It also appears that not everyone necessarily agrees that the behaviour of the two poles is unrelated. An IPY official predicted that the Arctic might be ice free last summer.
Polar icecaps melting faster than expected
Wednesday 25 February 2009
The International Polar Year survey, a vast enterprise involving thousands of scientists, has revealed that icecaps around the Poles are melting at a faster rate than expected.
http://www.france24.com/en/20090225-icecaps-around-north-south-poles-melting-faster-expected-scientists-international-polar-year-survey
Thanks for the answer Walt.
It helps to understand your perspective.
I still think it would be helpful to make the daily sea ice extent and daily sea ice area numbers available to the general public. Even if there are corrections at a later date. Perhaps you could partner with some other data dessemination agency. I note Jaxa has been updating the daily sea ice extent data in an easy-to-use CSV file although their data only goes back to 2002.
To help out my (would like to have that is) friend George Will, after finding the NSIDC site yesterday where the monthly sea ice extent and sea ice area data which is based on the current algorithms used (and after finding all the intervening years in a text file) (and I hope I have your permission),
I am plotting up the year-end Global sea ice extent and Global sea ice area back to 1978.
http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/7512/seaicearea.png
http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/7661/seaiceextenty.png
And just to show this is the same data NSIDC uses, I have replicated the Northern Hemisphere Extent Anomaly (in % from the 1979-2000 average) that we are used to seeing with the same data.
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/8499/nhextent.png
Which is the same as:
ftp://sidads.colorado.edu/pub/DATASETS/NOAA/G02135/Dec/N_12_plot.png
So, George Will was right after all and to echo Jeff Id, I don’t think it is really fair to use this measure when the actual NH sea ice extent is not declining that significantly. What it has done is give many people the wrong impression (they all just knew that George Will was wrong even though he was right about the point he made.)
I didn’t think my question was too bad.
Anyway, thanks for the article.
Squidly,
I understand how you feel. The response would have been so much better if he had said,
“We have made statements in the past that were a little “over the top”. Since I am the man heading this agency, I will make sure that I review every statement to make sure we are not promoting alarmism. The term “death spiral” was especially egregious.
Thanks,
Walt”
Frankly, as a Canadian, I hope it gets warmer and there will be less ice in our attic. There will also be a longer growing season for wheat and other crops, and a smaller heatingn bill, resulting in less GHG emissions by our power plants.
Faster, hotter, accelerating, accelerating faster than before, record acceleration …
I think it is rather ironic to hear all the time about the importance of “long term trends” for climate and especially see ice. However, on the other hand, we go from one year to the next and suddenly someone finds that things are accelerating at an alarming and record rate, never before observed. It seems that long term trends get shorter every year. Perhaps this is a natural effect and there is a correlation between acceleration and the length of the term trend?
Still not buying it!
Anybody know what the global sea ice extent was during the Medieval Warm Period?
There was a story on the NSIDC website entitled ‘Near-real-time data now available.’ http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/
The article was radically edited from Feb. 24th related to the DMSP F13 and DMSP F15 satellite sensors. In the last article (a copy was found at: http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=30658) it was stated that “For several years, we used the SSM/I sensor on the DMSP F13 satellite. Last year, F13 started showing large amounts of missing data. The sensor was almost 13 years old, and no longer provided complete daily data to allow us to track total daily sea ice extent. As a result, we switched to the DMSP F15 sensor for our near-real-time analysis. For more information on the switch, see “Note on satellite update and intercalibration,” in our June 3, 2008 post. ”
The new article (edited) goes on to say, “NSIDC stopped displaying the problematic data, and recalculated sea ice extent using data from the DMSP F13 satellite, an older sensor in the same series of satellites. The recalculation changed the January monthly average ice extent by less than the margin of error for the sensor. As we reported in our February 3 post, growth of Arctic sea ice did indeed slow in January because of unusual atmospheric conditions. Using F13 data instead of F15, the September daily minimum that we reported on September 16, 2008, changed from 4.52 million square kilometers (1.74 million square miles) to 4.54 million square kilometers (1.75 million square miles), within the margin of error for daily data.”
The old article states, “As a result, our processes underestimated total sea ice extent for the affected period. Based on comparisons with sea ice extent derived from the NASA Earth Observing System Advanced Microwave Scanning Radiometer (EOS AMSR-E) sensor, this underestimation grew from a negligible amount in early January to about 500,000 square kilometers (193,000 square miles) by mid-February ” and goes on to say, “We are actively investigating how to address the problem. Since we are not receiving good DMSP SSM/I data at the present time, we have temporarily discontinued daily updates. We will restart the data stream as soon as possible.
Some people might ask why we don’t simply switch to the EOS AMSR-E sensor. AMSR-E is a newer and more accurate passive microwave sensor. However, we do not use AMSR-E data in our analysis because it is not consistent with our historical data. Thus, while AMSR-E gives us greater accuracy and more confidence on current sea ice conditions, it actually provides less accuracy on the long-term changes over the past thirty years. There is a balance between being as accurate as possible at any given moment and being as consistent as possible through long time periods. Our main scientific focus is on the long-term changes in Arctic sea ice. With that in mind, we have chosen to continue using the SSM/I sensor, which provides the longest record of Arctic sea ice extent. ”
Why not just use the AMSR-E sensor which is more accurate? Instead you choose an old faulty one?
Watts Up With That?
OT, but Bill McKibben in his latest WAPO article, cheering on tomorrow’s climate demonstrations, called James Hansen “Our foremost climatologist”…I thought he was an astronomer. Also learned CO2 is “drying out the trees”.
@James Baldwin griffin (16:39:12) :
“As the satellite pictures show an increase in ice coverage how can Walter Meier state it is declining when it is coming back.”
this happens all the time. you need to give in detail the time interval you are talking about and better, a reason why you selected these dates.
Dr. Meier chose the present tense but “meant” the time from 1979 till end of 2007. this decline is in correlation with the co2 increase but also with the warm ocean currents cycle, solar activity and reduced volcanic activity.
So, this trend doesn’t prove any agenda.
however, long term ocean currents have changed recently and solar activity is now in a minimum. so the coming years may serve for a good estimation of the contribution of these natural cycles. long term temperature trends can be explained with these cycles and without any greenhouse gas contribution, and the coming years may show the same for arctic sea ice.
What I find disturbing is that in most of the NSIDC reports, somehow it is felt it is necessary to add what is little more than the normal mantra from the supporters of AGW, that what is happening to Arctic sea ice, supports the idea that CO2 is causing global temperatures to rise. The data supplied by NSIDC is superb, and it only takes away from the excellent science that NSIDC is obviously doing, to lend support for what is little more than a hypothesis; that AGW is real.
This is the correct 2nd link, quoting Dr Meiers.
http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/seaice_conditions_feature.html