Remember when Joe Romm said the I-35W bridge collapse in Minneapolis was related to”climate change”?
And again…
The truth, never reported on Climate Progress, is far different:
In fact if you search for the keywords: “heat, weather, climate” as a factor for collapse in the NTSB press release here: http://www.ntsb.gov/Pressrel/2008/081114.html or in the full report here: http://www.dot.state.mn.us/i35wbridge/ntsb/finalreport.pdf
You won’t find them. That’s because the failure is completely unrelated to them.
Well now another structure in Minneapolis has collapsed. 21 inches of snow in a short period was a factor.
The snowfall that ended Saturday night was one of the five biggest in Twin Cities history, National Weather Service meteorologist James McQuirter said. (source)
Fortunately it appears no one was killed or injured. Was it Weather, not Climate? Or “climate disruption? Climate blamers, get your game on. Watch the video below of the actual collapse.
Inside:
Outside:
The Vikings were displaced:
It appears Viking history has repeated itself:
The Viking Hvalsey Church in Greenland, abandoned when it became too cold to live there anymore.
Interior view:
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3QYLJ8zH5E&fs=1&hl=en_US]
Perhaps this time as Romm tries to take people for a ride on his baloney pony, they will just laugh at his two fisted death grip on such nonsense.
Minneapolis might want to consider a new roof on their current facility’s base . . . like this
http://www.bcplacestadium.com/index.php/construction.html
click on the “View Live Webcams”.
See solidified dihydrogen oxide is extremely hazardous. No wonder they signed that petition.
Jeez, heavy snowfall in Mipple City. Who’da thunk?
The history of the American midwest is replete with architectural engineering design failures hinged upon underestimating what wind and rain and snow can do to fixed structures, and the Metrodome is just another one of ’em.
Heck, those of us with fond memories of the Kansas City Kemper Arena roof collapse in 1979 were predicting that the Hubert H. Humphrey Metrodome (named after yet another enormous Minnesota gasbag) was going to offer plenty of Wonderful Big Weather-Related Fun long before the damned thing opened in1982, and certainly hasn’t disappointed, has it?
—
Does this prove gloabal climate disruption? It never used to snow in Minnesota.
According to wikipedia, the inflatable Metrodome has collapsed/failed 5 times from heavy snowfall. Nothing to see here ….move along.
“Breaking News”, how appropriate!
Same thing happened to all the recent appearance of mobile home and side carport roofs in Elgin two years ago. Elgin, Oregon got buried in snow two years ago, completely covering cars, dog houses, landscaping and all semblance of curbs down mainstreet. Prior to the mobile home invasion, steep house roofs withstood all kinds of weather. But our recent couple of decades of warming have lulled folks into a mobile home and cheap flat roofed housing market slumber soon to be awakened by the vagaries of completely normal weather pattern variations.
The roof here is holding up real good despite the “Big Chill”.
http://media.thestar.topscms.com/images/43/89/780e217c491bb8b289d0a31fa230.jpeg
http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey/article/905748–attendance-record-falls-as-michigan-beats-michigan-state
I have pictures of the shelf cloud going over the West Bottoms in Kansas City when the Kemper Arena roof collapsed. The gust front was indeed very powerful that day. The wind has not let up here in Iowa either. We did not have at lot of snow but it is blowing and very cold.
I can’t wait for the M4GW next video on the dome collapse.
I would think that because the Metrodome roof did not collapse during MWP or even during the warming period of the 1920’s-1940’s, proves that the current warming period is more intense and causing greater climate disruption.
REPLY: I can’t tell if you are being sarcastic or just your usual ridiculous self. If making sarcasm, please use a /sarc tag afterwards. -Anthony
It might not be a good idea to consider the new roof at BC place. It is costing over 500 million, and is retractable, sort of, as long as its not windy or rainy. Plus I think its butt ugly.
Well, it was a little silly to build a sports arena in an area that is scraped clean by glaciers every time the planet has an ice age. The stadium will probably be rebuilt further south several times (at taxpayer expense) before they decide to move the team to Miami.
a better video
REPLY: Thanks I’ve adding it to the main story – Anthony
This is a tricky one. Alarmists have an underlying urge to blame everything on global warming aka climate change aka climate disruption. It is what they live for, what they long for. And yet, snow is not the warmists favourite weapon. By drawing attention to warmings nemesis – cold – it is too exposed to the obvious conter attacks.
There are some expert players however, who have been quite succesful with this gambit They link snow not with cold, but with moisture, and therefore protect their pieces from the usual attack. This is advanced play though, and not for the simple troll.
Joe Romm is an idiot. Big surprise! 🙂
WOW! Crazy stuff but what would they have done had there been no dome? Would they have postponed the game as well? Edan Aharony. The football gods must love Brett Favre, now he can rest his injury and hope to keep his streak alive. Edan Aharony.
Interesting article from March, 2010, on snow buildup on roofs in Minnesota rural / agricultural areas. This is from the University of Minnesota Extension. Says the authors are researching the causes of the numerous roof collapses recently. Looks like they will have plenty of research opportunities.
http://www.farmandranchguide.com/articles/2010/03/11/bullseye/production_news/prod4.txt
Was it designed by a climate scientist by any chance?
Is the Metrodome supposed to be an all-weather venue? ;O)
Vince Causey says:
December 12, 2010 at 11:00 am
This is a tricky one. Alarmists have an underlying urge to blame everything on global warming aka climate change aka climate disruption. It is what they live for, what they long for. And yet, snow is not the warmists favourite weapon. By drawing attention to warmings nemesis – cold – it is too exposed to the obvious conter attacks.
There are some expert players however, who have been quite succesful with this gambit They link snow not with cold, but with moisture, and therefore protect their pieces from the usual attack. This is advanced play though, and not for the simple troll.
______
Tis indeed “advanced play” if one would try to ascribe any single event to AGW. No respectable scientist would and no knowledgable amateur “warmist” would. The coldest regions of the earth are not the snowiest as in general it takes energy in the form of heat to create the conditions for snow and rain storms. The low pressure systems normally associated with large snowstorms and rainstorms are incredibly energetic events the likes of which the coldest region of earth, Antarctica, rarely if ever sees, as that region also remains among the driest in terms of actual precipitation.
I really like your connection to the Greenland Vikings!
R. Gates says:
December 12, 2010 at 11:18 am
“Tis indeed “advanced play” if one would try to ascribe any single event to AGW. No respectable scientist would and no knowledgable amateur “warmist” would.”
In that case, the ‘respectable’ ‘scientists’ should be all up in arms about the MSM journos who do exactly that all the time. Fun thing is, i don’t hear them protesting much…
R Gates, while you are correct, sir, it will still be amusing to watch the warministas talk about the cold being weather while the collapse of the dome is the result of CO2 weather disruptions.
This could be good for the Giants if it means Brett Farve plays…
They are not going to play there anytime soon…
Doesn’t just happen in Minnesota – several years ago the roof of the supermarket in Chama, New Mexico collapsed under the snow load. Another year a Toys’R Us roof in Maryland collapsed under snow. Happens all the time in a lot of places. Just not usually on video tape.
It ain’t climate – it’s poor engineering. Building that kind of dome roof in Minnesota isn’t smart – unless the warmists are right and its gonna be a tropical paradise. If you believe that I’ve got this ocean front property in Phoenix that you might like to buy.
For anyone who might be interested, Henry Petroski’s book “What made Gertie Gallop” is a good introduction to the subject of engineering failure.
Fart and you have to explain it’ aint Climate Change (Global Warming’s a different matter)
Here in the UK we have had a minor thaw but the cold weather and snow is due to return later in the week(with a vengeance according to Piers Corbyn). The Met Office weathermen are warning of further ‘disruption’ due to said snow. It’s a word they are all pushing hard in their forecasts. Perhaps it’s a mere coincidence or perhaps it’s a none too subtle attempt to shift the argument away from now highly toxic term Global Warming or the bland meaningless Climate Change, both of which former MO advocates now seemingly won’t touch with a ten foot pole.
REPLY: Let me get this straight. The Met office is using the word “disruption” in published forecasts? Can you provide an example? – Anthony
Rhoda R says:
December 12, 2010 at 11:36 am
R Gates, while you are correct, sir, it will still be amusing to watch the warministas talk about the cold being weather while the collapse of the dome is the result of CO2 weather disruptions.
______
When I hear the ignorant talk (from either side of an issue), is causes me more pain than amusement…but to each their own.
Blaming everything on Climate Change has become a weak spot that undermines their case just like the overkill of alarmism.
So…
If the Packers can play in an open stadium , and their fans can stand it then those wimpy Minnesotans should be able to as well . Py yimminy .
I enjoy the “snow storms are a result of global warming” reports almost as much as I have enjoyed the warmistas abandoning the term “warming” for the hilariously vague term “disruption”.
The new scare, this time joined by the US Army.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/12/12/weekinreview/12shanker.html?hp
I cannot understand.
do people really believe that before Humans put their finger into it weather didnt happen all by itself?
my grandparents must of lived in a wonderful time. it must of never snowed or rained, been too hot or too cold, too sunny or too cloudy. The wind must of never blown more than the perfect amount before people messed it all up. I bet the sun didnt even rise and set, thats probably our fault too.
Nobby says:
December 12, 2010 at 11:46 am
REPLY: Let me get this straight. The Met office is using the word “disruption” in published forecasts? Can you provide an example? – Anthony
This is from the Met Office web site, but it’s probably not what you’re after.
UK Outlook for Friday 17 Dec 2010 to Sunday 26 Dec 2010:
Very cold and unsettled on Friday and through the weekend, with strong northwesterly winds bringing frequent snow showers to many places. Some significant accumulations are likely in places leading to some disruption, and with strong winds in places, there is a risk of drifting leading to temporary blizzard conditions. It will be very cold with icy stretches and widespread overnight frosts, these perhaps becoming locally severe through the first weekend as winds fall lighter. During the following week, it will stay mostly cold or very cold with further wintry showers in places and the risk of freezing fog. There is however a chance that some southern and perhaps central parts may become less cold for a time, but with a risk of rain, sleet and snow, particularly in the southwest.
Updated: 1147 on Sun 12 Dec 2010
The reason why the Warmists moved from Global Warming to Climate Change and looks like Global Climate Disruption is because they realise that the rest of us know that the Warming bit might just be over. Furthermore, it gives then an open field to blame EVERYTHING on climate change/global warming/disruptions/ (flexible pick options).
Warmists behave like a man who has been caught on video stealing from a shop then says that it was his twin brother. When records show he has no twin brother he turns round and claims false arrest funded by big tobacco. This is getting darn right silly.
Hansen, take late retirement now and head off to the hills.
Romm said snow would be a thing of the past. With droughts and heat, this can’t happen. Of course it is worse in the winter.
Vince Causey says:
It is possible to use the Newspeak dictionary, a la 1984 (Orwell), and make some additions to form a human centred paradigm
cold could be unwarm.
Ice -solid rain.
Snow – moist rain.
Sun – global warming.
Winter – heatwave pause
so that every natural event could be give to the invention of an artificially human cause attributed to the equally artificial notion of climate disruption
Klimate Kip says:
December 12, 2010 at 12:02 pm
Logically, it could be argued then that heatwaves are the result of global cooling. Remember, the summer of ’76 was when they warned of an ice ice due to Anthropogic global cooling.
Anyone who suffered heatwaves in the last 8 years, be warned that cooling is around the corner
Ms. or Mrs. or Mr. R. Gates
I would love to read your comments late next year. ;O)
*anthropogenic*, of course
Last year the Dulles Jet Center roof collasped:
http://www.thekathrynreport.com/2010/02/dulles-airport-hangar-roof-collapse.html
Uber-Alarmist Romm also blamed
climateweather for Tiger Woods losing the 2009 US Open. Rain in June in New York certainly never happened in the old days when we had perfect climate stasis.According to some of my relatives in that area, the Metrodome has collapsed several times. It collapsed three years in a row in the 80’s. You would think it would have increased frequency major storm frequency was caused by AGW.
Almost every extreme snow record still held is over 20 years old: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Minnesota_weather_records
Nothng significant in recent years. Oh, but that’s proof of Climate Change too.
“REPLY: Let me get this straight. The Met office is using the word “disruption” in published forecasts? Can you provide an example? – Anthony”
Maybe a misunderstanding here? Met Office (and UK forecasters in general) talk plenty about ‘disruption’ (e.g. to traffic) as an effect of severe weather, but not about ‘climate disruption’ as a cause.
Was it “rotten” snow?
Enquiring minds want to know……..
Perhaps this one really is due to the climate, as in the temperature falling due to the Sun going into a cycle of reduced magnetic field strength.
The roof may have fallen in Minnesota, but my Packers losing to the Lions means that the sky has just fallen in Green Bay…….
I’m totally on the CAGW bandwagon now : The APOCALYPSE is upon us! (:-
Will they blame it on CAGW/CC/CD? No, but they’ll probably say something like “events such as the collapse of the Metrodome will become more frequent in the future”,
and that unusual and damaging snowstorms are “consistent with the models”.
Warmspeak is a tricky language. Just ask R. Gates.
Well of course this will be claimed as definitive proof of AGW as the warming makes it colder. It’s all the fault of big oil, so we better ship some money off to some corrupt 3rd world totalitarian dictators. Doesn’t anyone care about the children and the fluffy polar bears anymore?!!
Here in Scandinavia we have a new form of climate disruption. We’re running out of Christmas trees. The snow is so deep that the growers can’t get at the trees, and the ones they have already felled are buried beneath drifts:
http://www.svd.se/nyheter/inrikes/stor-risk-att-granarna-tar-slut-fore-julhelgen_5801167.svd
R. Gates says: “I would think that because the Metrodome roof did not collapse during MWP or even during the warming period of the 1920′s-1940′s, proves that the current warming period is more intense and causing greater climate disruption.”
REPLY: I can’t tell if you are being sarcastic or just your usual ridiculous self. If making sarcasm, please use a /sarc tag afterwards. -Anthony
I took it as a parody of (mostly Warmist, but not always) non-sequiturs and thus found it one of the funniest comments “R” has made here. He has moments of brilliance, every now and then.
Jimbo says:
December 12, 2010 at 12:51 pm
Ms. or Mrs. or Mr. R. Gates
I would love to read your comments late next year. ;O)
_______
I have no horse in the AGW discussion from a political or economic perspective and truly only care about the continual advancement of human knowledge about the dynamics of this amazing cosmos, which includes of course, the climate system of earth. As trite as this sounds (and it does, I fully admit), it is absolutely true in my case. While I’ve staked my claim to be 75% certain that AGW is happening (and will be reflected in the longer term in warming, climate change and climate disruption), if some new information comes to light that shows that the 40% increase in CO2 since the 1700’s makes not a knat’s ass bit of difference in the climate, and everything is just natural variability from the sun, the PDO, the AMO, the NAO, galactic cosmic rays, intersellar dust, or firefly farts, then science will have progressed!
Jimbo says: “Ms. or Mrs. or Mr. R. Gates, I would love to read your comments late next year. ;O)”
Don’t you mean “and/or”? From the variation in comment quality, I suspect there’s more than one “R” at work here. One of them is fairly intelligent…
@RGates
You’ve not been to Damascus, recently, have you?
Forgive me, for asking that, but you do appear to be less rigid with your thinking than previously. If so, well done Sir!
This was posted on American Agriculturalist as “new news” two days ago.
….Lady in Red
Are You Adjusting For Climate Change?
Years ago, Penn State and Cornell University climate watchers began talking about the earlier and faster growing degree day accumulations compared to even 30 years ago. Fruit trees are blooming and ripening earlier.
Long-season corn hybrids aren’t so long-season anymore. They’re maturing and drying down earlier than ever.
Insects that used to be problems only in the South are crawling – or flying – up into the Mid-Atlantic and Northeast. Weeds that never overwintered in north country are now doing so because of milder winters – less snow and more temperate temperatures.
North country is no longer as north as it used to be. And the subtle yet profound climate changes could reshape crop agriculture, contends Otto Doering, director of the Climate Change Research Center at Purdue University. If climate change predictions are accurate, farmers between Interstate 70 and 80 “could get a permanent dose of southern-style weather.”
Agricultural producers throughout the Corn Belt latitudes are already facing warmer average temperatures and precipitation extremes. That’s leading farmers to shift to more climate-appropriate crops or management strategies, says Doering. By year 2100, one scenario predicts central Indiana’s climate would be like that of Virginia (mid- to upper 40s) during winter and Oklahoma (regularly topping 90 degrees) during summer.
As the climate shifts . . .
Farmers will be confronted with major meteorological challenges. Rainfall variability with a smaller number of storms over the growing season and more intense storms are things we’ll have to watch out for,” he predicts.
Warmer winters mean pests wouldn’t be wiped out as much like on those days in January where it’s below zero and the cold permeates the ground. That may help explain the northward march of stink bugs into Maryland and Pennsylvania.
Even with climate changes, Indiana and the upper Midwest would continue to be the nation’s best corn-growing region. But the western Corn Belt that relies on irrigation might drop corn production altogether if permanent drier conditions prevail, he says. “In those places, farmers are probably going to move to dry land sorghum, dry land wheat and other sorts of crops.” Other potential impacts include:
• Double cropping is already moving farther North, particularly on the East Coast.
• Seed maturities, traits and planting schedules also are shifting.
• Rainfall and temperature changes could erode conservation gains and reduce soil organic matter.
To learn more visit http://www.purdue.edu/climate/.
Disruption is used often in the UK during weather forecasts where serious concerns to human safety are possible. (ie transport conditions) This has nothing to do with climate disruption.
Regarding the climate phase it’s :-
not global warming
not climate change
not climate disruption
but CLIMATE SPIN (the new era in science when politics become science)
R. Gates says: December 12, 2010 at 11:50 am
When I hear the ignorant talk (from either side of an issue), is causes me more pain than amusement…but to each their own.
————————————————————————————
R.Gates. Have you read (or listened to) what you just said? YOU are the pain. (in the a—se)
Douglas
This was a good storm – a foot and a half of snow, 30MPH winds, and then it plunged below 0F. Up to a balmy 5 now, but headed back for teens below tonight and tomorrow again. With all that, we still sat out in the jacuzzi last night – it was awesome. Un-burying the cars and clearing the driveway today – not so much. But it’s Minnesota – been there, done that, and hard to say it was “unprecedented.” Merry Christmas!
jorgekafkazar says:
December 12, 2010 at 1:49 pm
Jimbo says: “Ms. or Mrs. or Mr. R. Gates, I would love to read your comments late next year. ;O)”
Don’t you mean “and/or”? From the variation in comment quality, I suspect there’s more than one “R” at work here. One of them is fairly intelligent…
_____
I shall pass that on to my right hemisphere once we get the corpus callosum reconnected…
_________
RoyFOMR says:
December 12, 2010 at 1:59 pm
@RGates
You’ve not been to Damascus, recently, have you?
Forgive me, for asking that, but you do appear to be less rigid with your thinking than previously. If so, well done Sir!.
_____
Water is useful, not because it is rigid, but because it flows… –Lao Tzu
I’m am still a 75/25 warmist vs skeptic, but perhaps I’ve been spending a bit more time looking at that 25% side of things…
Warmers see everything through the prism of
global warming climate changeclimate disruption. Reminds me of Elizabeth May (Canada’s Green Party leader), who proclaimed AIDS in Africa was getting worse due to climate change — I believe that was last year at the Copenhagen conference. It honestly borders on the obsessive the lengths to which Warmers apply their pettheory hypothesisconjecture to anything, and everything they come across.“if some new information comes to light that shows that the 40% increase in CO2 since the 1700′s makes not a knat’s ass bit of difference in the climate, and everything is just natural variability from the sun, the PDO, the AMO, the NAO, galactic cosmic rays, intersellar dust, or firefly farts, then science will have progressed!”
R Gates,
What information shows that the 40 percent increase in CO2 makes a lot of difference to climate? because that would be new information.
It has taken a strongish recent El Nino to cause global temperatures to become near the peak in 1997/98. That El Nino only should be 0.07c warmer then the recent one during 2009/2010.
That means for example if they did become equal warmist years, 0.07c warmer over 12 years is a concern to all human civilisation even if this was only down to CO2? At this rate it would take 171 years for global temperatures to reach only 1.0c higher. The temperature changes over the decades already include any feedbacks this planet is going to encounter and these are not alarming at all.
Edan Aharony says:
December 12, 2010 at 11:04 am
Probably a good thing they didn’t move the game to Green Bay. I don’t know if Lambeau Field could withstand that much irony.
Would that qualify as an avalanche?
It’s worse than I thought!
Ecotretas
More bad luck on TPaw’s watch. A couple other bridges of similar design(MNDOT-state engineers) have been replaced following the disaster.
Back a few, the Cities failed to buy enough salt for the roads. That may be a problem again if they don’t buy enough of the cold weather stuff(what potassium chloride, don’t remember?).
Lady in Red is groping about with old data. La Nina winters will be de rigueur for a quarter century. Wonderful luck that they’ve time to re-up Ethanol subsidies before the break for Xmas.
We’re in the best of hands.
Matt G says:
December 12, 2010 at 2:32 pm
“if some new information comes to light that shows that the 40% increase in CO2 since the 1700′s makes not a knat’s ass bit of difference in the climate, and everything is just natural variability from the sun, the PDO, the AMO, the NAO, galactic cosmic rays, intersellar dust, or firefly farts, then science will have progressed!”
R Gates,
What information shows that the 40 percent increase in CO2 makes a lot of difference to climate? because that would be new information.
It has taken a strongish recent El Nino to cause global temperatures to become near the peak in 1997/98. That El Nino only should be 0.07c warmer then the recent one during 2009/2010.
_______
Matt, there is a rise in temperature over the past half a century that rides on top of both ENSO cycles and solar cycles. This rise can clearly be seen in this chart:
http://tiny.cc/cqr7z
(scroll down to temperature vs sunspot number and you can also see the spikes/dips caused by ENSO cycles)
Now some would say this rise is all at least partially due to the PDO cycle along with other ocean cycles such as the AMO, etc., and some would say that we had a very active sun during this period, and that we are now headed back to a quiet sun period much like the Dalton Minimum, and these are all possible. It is also possible (and “warmists” like me would say probable) that part of the rise is due to the 40% increase in CO2 since the 1700’s caused by human activity finally overwhelming the other natural cycles.
We will likely get another El Nino closer to the current Cycle 24 Solar Max (say in 2012-2013. Even though this solar max will likely not be a strong as Cycle 23, to what would AGW skeptics ascribe the likely record setting global temps that will come along with the next El Nino, even though the solar sun spot cycle will not be has high as during the 1998 El Nino, and hence Total Solar Irradiance will not be has high? Combine this with what would be a cool phase of the PDO, and it will get harder and harder for skeptics to find reasons why global temps will keep hitting records other than accepting what GCM’s are saying at CO2 and AGW.
I would ask AGW skeptics this: If the decade from 2010 to 2019 turns out to be warmer than 2000-2009, (which was the warmest on instrument record), to what will you personally attribute this phenomenon? You can of course claim it will be due to poor, sloppy, or incomplete temperature records, but when multiple independent sources report the same general thing, it will be hard to play that card much longer.
I have to wonder, this is Minnesota. It ain’t Florida! Doesn’t it snow there every winter? The roof collapsed under 17 inches of snow. JUST 17 INCHES! I live in North Carolina, and the roof I stay under has yet to collapse under 24 inches of snow. Which idiot built the Metrodome? Considering where the stadium is, why wasn’t the Teflon roof built to withstand 60 inches of snow?!?
Then again, maybe God is a Brett Favre fan. Brett Favre has already said that if the game were today, he wouldn’t start, thus breaking his iron-man streak. But now he may start. Or, maybe it was John Madden who “accidentally” sabotaged the roof.
Tis the season to be talking about stink bugs!
Lady in Red (@2:00)
Warmer winters mean pests wouldn’t be wiped out as much like on those days in January where it’s below zero and the cold permeates the ground. That may help explain the northward march of stink bugs into Maryland and Pennsylvania. ( Otto Doering ?)
I grew up in western Penna. (or PA in today’s post office) and can assure Prof. Doering that stink bugs are not a recent arrival to the fauna of that great state. However, a new arrival has generated much discussion but to relate this to climate change is a stretch. These insects seem to find the insides of houses to be a favorite residence so the winter temperature is of limited usefulness when explaining their expansion.
http://ento.psu.edu/extension/factsheets/brown-marmorated-stink-bug
By year 2100, one scenario predicts central Indiana’s climate would be like that of Virginia (mid- to upper 40s) during winter . . .
This might follow if the Gulf Stream flows northward in the Wabash Valley and exits via Lake Erie and the Saint Lawrence River. Otherwise, not a chance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wabash_Valley_Seismic_Zone
jorgekafkazar says:
December 12, 2010 at 1:49 pm
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R. Gates says:
December 12, 2010 at 10:40 am
I would think that because the Metrodome roof did not collapse during MWP or even during the warming period of the 1920′s-1940′s, proves that the current warming period is more intense and causing greater climate disruption.
You seem to not to be able to draw clear lines in your mind. “Manmade global warming” predicts winters will start later and end sooner. It does not predict they will start sooner with record cold and more snow. That is what is happening now in the Northern Hemisphere. In other words, this is more evidence that the “manmade global warming” hypothesis is wrong. When a hypothesis does not have supporting evidence it is a wrong hypothesis and must be scrapped.
But you do not want to do that. Instead, you say anything, regardless if it was predicted by “manmade global warming” or not, is caused by “manmade global warming”. Oh wait, it’s not called that anymore, it’s called “climate disruption” now.
So now you want people to believe “manmade global warming” causes record cold and huge snow storms before winter even starts. You also want us to believe huge snow storms like this have not happened before at this time of year.
But if I am wrong then would you show us how these kind of storms have happened before? Also, would you tell us that “manmade global warming” did not predict winters would start earlier?
R. Gates says:
December 12, 2010 at 3:52 pm
I would ask AGW skeptics this: If the decade from 2010 to 2019 turns out to be warmer than 2000-2009, (which was the warmest on instrument record), to what will you personally attribute this phenomenon?
I wouldn’t attribute it to anything, since it isn’t the case.
The last decade isn’t exceptional. It depends on the starting point. If climate history began in 1979, when the gentle, possibly benign warming in recent ideology began, then that harmless warming exists no longer and we have a plateau-levelling off of warming. It has ben a period during which population has increased dramatically globally, famines have been milder than prior cold periods..
However, if you take the late 19th century as the starting point, which is seen as the beginning of the industrial revolution on a large scale, then this was the coldest part of the entire holecene period.
It is extremely unlikely that we shall return to temperatures that were experienced during the holocene optimum, which climatically, was extremely recent, either the length of time that this held for. In fact, 3/4 of the holocene has been warmer than the last 30 years, during which period of time, no climatic travesties have taken place.
There have been climatic travesties in the past, though these are associated with cold periods
Wade says:
December 12, 2010 at 4:04 pm
Then again, maybe God is a Brett Favre fan
Brett Favre does it all ;o)
Wade @ 4:04
The idea is that the roof wasn’t designed to support snow. They expected it to slide off. They need to install a “huffer-puffer” (my term) to cause it to flex out about once every 10 minutes and shake snow off.
———-OTHERS———–
The connection (or mechanism) for AGW on a continuing (more of this, more of that) trend has not been demonstrated. Recall the skepticism regarding continents floating around until sea floor spreading (and the rest) was demonstrated. So, remain skeptical until the mechanism is shown. Whether the temperature goes up or down or sidewise means very little. Why does it do that?
This proves beyond all doubt that global warming is really heavy stuff…
R. Gates says:
December 12, 2010 at 10:40 am
I would think that because the Metrodome roof did not collapse during MWP or even during the warming period of the 1920′s-1940′s, proves that the current warming period is more intense and causing greater climate disruption.
REPLY: I can’t tell if you are being sarcastic or just your usual ridiculous self. If making sarcasm, please use a /sarc tag afterwards. -Anthony
______
C’mon Anthony, did you need to tack on the ad hominem…really? I think I generally am quite polite around here, and pay you and WUWT many sincere and well deserved compliments, I would think you’d could at least be courteous enough to refrain from the insults even if you disagree with my perspectives.
REPLY: And the question remains. /sarc or silly ? – Anthony
R. Gates,
re: “…your usual ridiculous self.”
Claiming to be 75% true believer and 25% skeptic is pretty ridiculous.☺
Addendum to R Gates:
You ask for the c02 increase being a factor in *Global warming*. Thats a subject covered many times on WUWT in the past year. c02 is thermally excited at 15 microns, which correspond to subzero temperatures – typically minus 37C . C02 captures (for a billionth of a second) radiation at this temperature. It then thermalises with oxygen and nitrogen, which receives radiation at its peaks where c02 emits radiation.
These temperatures correspond to the poles and the upper part of the troposphere. There is no physical mechanism by which subzero temperatures can cause global warming above the average global temperature, which is thought to be around 15C. Where c02 is at its most active – in the troposphere where these temperatures are found, there is no physical mechanism by which subzero temperature radiation is sent back down to the earth surface, to heat up the ground and oceans. Analogy-wise, its tantamount to saying that eggs will cook if you put them in the freezer.
this is in essence the ratiocination that is accepted by the IPCC.
No serious physicist could accept it.
Essentially, most heat is invisible to c02, and it is around 6% long wave that isn’t invisible regardless of its quantity. If its 15micron saturation point is reached, then no additional c02 will capture more heat. Even I find some sceptic arguments of a doubling of c02= marginally higher temperature hard to reason, given the radiative physics of c02.
It is something like a piece of tissue paper. Once it is saturated in a bath full of water more water will not make it absorb more, and become wetter. similarly with your sunblock. A factor 10 sunblock doesn’t become factor 40 by doubling how much you put on your face
oops. correction: factor 20. It will block a fixed amount of UV, regardless of a doubling or putting thrice fold, since its composition fixes it for its purposes at factor 10.
C02, or any gas has fixed wavelengths of radiative absorbtion, which don’t change with quantity
R. Gates says:
December 12, 2010 at 3:52 pm:
“I would ask AGW skeptics this: If the decade from 2010 to 2019 turns out to be warmer than 2000-2009, (which was the warmest on instrument record), to what will you personally attribute this phenomenon?”
You’ve got it completely backwards. It’s up to the CAGWarmers to prove that their CO2 theory is correct.
A dood says:
December 12, 2010 at 7:25 pm
R. Gates says:
December 12, 2010 at 3:52 pm:
“I would ask AGW skeptics this: If the decade from 2010 to 2019 turns out to be warmer than 2000-2009, (which was the warmest on instrument record), to what will you personally attribute this phenomenon?”
You’ve got it completely backwards. It’s up to the CAGWarmers to prove that their CO2 theory is correct.
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GCM’s would model that 8 out of the next 10 decades will be warmer than the preceeding, and so with each passing decade that is warmer you can only simply say that the liklihood that CO2 induced AGW is happening is greater. On the flip side, if we get several decades in a row where we see the average global temperature decrease during that decade, it would be a serious blow to the core of the AGW hypothesis.
R. Gates says:
December 12, 2010 at 8:08 pm
and the scientific explanation of CAGW, with scentific calculations?
R. Gates
I would ask AGW skeptics this: If the decade from 2010 to 2019 turns out to be warmer than 2000-2009, (which was the warmest on instrument record), to what will you personally attribute this phenomenon?>>
Since the earth has been warming since the last ice age, that’s a pretty much meaningless question. If you asked HOW MUCH of the warming would I personally attribute this, that would be meaningful.
And the answer would be, for CO2… less than natural variability, and CO2 being logarithmic, anything over and above what we have now is… meaningless.
addendum. An explanation of C02 induced AGW that contradicts the explantion given at 6.28am.
Its true that in the stretching mode, c02 could elevate the temperature, but this doesn’t happen below50C, and the air doesn’t support such temperatures where c02 is at its active state. In a given volume of air there are 4,000 other molescules that are not c02, making such thermally exited transfers between c02 very unlikely
GCM’s would model that 8 out of the next 10 decades will be warmer than the preceeding, and so with each passing decade that is warmer you can only simply say that the liklihood that CO2 induced AGW is happening is greater.
its a spurious correlation. Even if it were warmer than the last 10 years, the reason would not be conclusive as to the earth’s heat capacity and temperature. At the moment, we are at the same temperature as the 1730’s, according to CET.
I’m sure new explanations and discoveries will be found as to the earth’s physical response during the next 10 years, regardless of whether the average global temperature increases, decreases, or remains around level
R Gates>
“if some new information comes to light that shows that the 40% increase in CO2 since the 1700′s makes not a knat’s ass bit of difference in the climate,”
Sorry to appear to be piling on… But I just thought I’d suggest another possibility. CO2 increases may cause a warming influence, but I rather suspect it will have an effect much like poking a spinning gyroscope: a brief wobble, followed by the natural feedbacks restoring equilibrium.
Gaia is telling the Vikings to stop being a bunch of wussies and play outside! Vikings gave away their best home field advantage when they built that ugly ass dome.
R. Gates says:
December 12, 2010 at 6:02 pm
Despite his track record, I have to side with RG on this one. The MWP reference put this well on the side of silly for me. It’s clearly something that couldn’t have happened, and there was nothing to imply that the “Flat Earthers” here would believe it.
It’s on a par with my “Polar Bears went extinct during the Roman Warm Period and again during the Medieval Warm Period.” Silly in general, sarcastic toward people wringing their hands over the fate of PB.
RG: “I’m am still a 75/25 warmist vs skeptic, but perhaps I’ve been spending a bit more time looking at that 25% side of things”
Perhaps 25% silly, 75% true sarcasm, but I’m not sure to whom. Maybe his 25% is talking to his 75%.
Pull My Finger says:
December 13, 2010 at 5:46 am
> Gaia is telling the Vikings to stop being a bunch of wussies and play outside! Vikings gave away their best home field advantage when they built that ugly ass dome.
Except when the Patriots come. The home field snow and cold didn’t help Chicago!
Part of a UK store roof collapsed under the weight of “Global Climate Disruption” last week. This story also mentions some other casualties of the recent cold snap.
http://news1.capitalbay.com/news/uk_snow_roof_at_tesco.html
I have lived in Minnesota since I was in 1st grade [1972] and I remember seeing all sorts of “climate disruption” every year. Very persistent too. They’ve even named them.
Spring.
Summer.
Fall.
Winter.
I’ve seen it snowing in May…I’ve seen 65 degrees in January…I’ve seen 103 degrees in June…I’ve seen thunderstorms in February.
But the weirdest one was back in the 90s, in western Minnesota one spring. Ran into a flood during a blizzard and heard some thunder from the sky at the same time. I was thinking to myself all that is missing is a tornado 🙂
Whether it’s manmade global warming, or natural global warming … there is a lot of crazy climate changes going on – even for Minnesota.
My point was Minnesota always has had extreme weather. Nothing new under the sun.
Check out this link…
http://climate.umn.edu/doc/historical/winter_storms.htm
Famous blizzards in Minnesota. From 1866 to 1896, a string of horrendous blizzards nailed the state…notice the pattern, nothing new. Weather patterns of the nice & extreme have been going on for a long time. I was 12 yrs. old and remember this one vividly.
“Jan 10-12, 1975 perhaps one of the worst blizzards and strongest storms.
Closed most roads in the state, some for 11 days, 20 ft drifts. One to two
feet of snow, train stuck at Willmar, 15,000 head of livestock lost. Many
low barometric pressure records set (28.55 at Duluth), winds to 80 mph,
storm intensified over the state, 14 people died in blizzard, and 21 more
from heart attacks.”
We lived 7 miles north of Willmar, MN then, we could not get into town for a 5 days. My father rode one of his snowmobiles into town for groceries and other supplies. I remember the snow plows getting stuck time after time a mile south. I would ride snowmobile to the spot and watch them try to pull each other out.
I don’t see how it could be any more clear that Global Warming is to blame for this.
The video clearly shows the roof buckling, and then tons of Global Warming pouring into the interior.
That’s what they mean by Global Warming, isn’t it? White fluffy stuff that falls from the sky? Isn’t that what the whole Gore Effect is about?