Germany’s Greens get ugly with climate skeptics

When I first saw this I thought to myself “maybe posting this isn’t appropriate on Veterans Day”. Then, after additional reflection, I realized this is exactly what our American veterans and the allies fought for: freedom of speech and freedom from tyranny. The seeds of tyranny appear to be taking hold again in the German government at least when it comes to climate change issues. – Anthony

~~~~~~

From Pierre Gosselins “No Tricks Zone”, apparently they really don’t like Fred Singer in Germany.

Branding of Dissenters Has Begun – Clearing The Path To A Climate Science Pogrom

What is it with these intolerant zealots who refuse to learn anything from history?

Right smack on the anniversary of Kristallnacht, German Parliamentarians, in a frontal assault, are now openly calling out and branding scientists for the crime of scientific dissent. These out-of-control Parliamentarians are demanding that the German government take a position against dissenting views in climate science.

What follows makes McCarthyism look like a treasure hunt. What a number of zealous German Parliamentarians are calling for borders on a call to launch a science pogrom.

The climate dogmatists are finding it increasingly difficult to cope with the growing scepticism and dissent now spreading in Germany and Europe, and want to stamp it out – and now.

Journalist Dirk Maxeiner here brings our attention to this latest development on the exploding intolerance that has gripped certain factions in Germany. The branding of climate science dissenters has begun. Fred Singer and EIKE (European Institute For Climate and Energy) are the first to feel the sting of the denier-branding-iron. Read background here.

Some may think that I’m being over-dramatic here. I am not. The situation that the few, yet very vocal, sceptics face here is precarious. Just read the following query written by a faction of Parliamentarians to the German Government, translated from the German text at Dirk Maxeiner’s site (emphasis added, and note the use of the term “denier” throughout the text)):

Read the full post here: Branding of Dissenters Has Begun – Clearing The Path To A Climate Science Pogrom

Luboš Motl has an opinion also, here

280 thoughts on “Germany’s Greens get ugly with climate skeptics

  1. What to use for a symbol? A patch with a polar bear with a Circle and slash over the Bear’s face to be worn on the shirt sleeve? “Deniers Raus! ” underneath?

  2. Well at least this time we can be sure that any future solar-powered panzers or tigers wont work at night very well.

  3. I think the heavy handed thuggish approach will backfire on them.

    A more constructive approach would be to invite the skeptics to the party.

    For example: Temperature data is just data, and humans have methods for handling and quality controlling large masses of data. You don’t need to be a climatologist to read a thermometer. After that it is just data.

    Non climate scientist with no bias could audit the data and come up with reasonable procedures to obtain the true temperature before they apply them. They could then apply them to the existing data and see what the temperature really was.

    Allowing Dr Hansen and his minions to adjust the data [unobserved ans unaudited] and hoping they are doing it fairly is mentally challenged. His 1988 model is in trouble and needs all the help it can get. Is he a big enough man to resist putting his thumb on the scale ?

  4. A modest proposal for BÜNDNIS 90/DIE GRÜNEN – perhaps all ‘deniers’ should be made to wear a symbol of some type. Perhaps a star?

  5. I wonder what Angela Merkel, with a PhD in physics, would make of the creative details of principle component analysis as practiced by Mann et al!

    These CAGW proponents need to be careful – if they cause Angela to look into the details – they will be absolutely sunk.

    I hope that the Hockey Stick Illusion is on Angela’s Christmas list.

  6. To many, it may seem that Germany has long since rid itself of the psyche of “Crystal Night” of ’38, yet my father will never forget or forgive Germany for thos events. He has always maintained “give them enough time and events will repeat themselves”.

    On the other hand, I like to think I received a more relaxed upbringing and education that was tolerant of post-war Germany, and indeed I have many German friends – all of whom would be regarded as “skeptics” (I’ve been bending their ears quite well)

    So just what is it in German politics that brings these elements to the fore?

    Andy

  7. The AGW hoax is a crimianal mobster enterprise. It is a fanatical power grab.

    The perpetrators of this hoax in the German Parliament need to be tried and imprisoned for this con.

  8. Has the German gov’t picked out a symbol that AGW skeptics will have to display on their clothing in public yet?

  9. Dr. Singer’s scientific credentials are impeccable,

    S. Fred Singer, BEE, Ohio State University (1943), A.M. Physics, Princeton University (1944), Ph.D. Physics, Princeton University (1948), Research Physicist, Upper Atmosphere Rocket Program, Applied Physics Laboratory, Johns Hopkins University (1946-1950), Scientific Liaison Officer, U.S. Office of Naval Research (1950-1953), White House Commendation for Early Design of Space Satellites (1954), Director, Center for Atmospheric and Space Physics, and Professor of Physics, University of Maryland (1953-1962), Visiting Scientist, Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Cal Tech (1961-1962), First Director, National Weather Satellite Center (1962-1964), First Dean of the School of Environmental and Planetary Sciences, University of Miami (1964-1967), Deputy Assistant Secretary (Water Quality and Research), U.S. Department of the Interior (1967-1970), Deputy Assistant Administrator, U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (1970-1971), Federal Executive Fellow, The Brookings Institution (1971), Professor of Environmental Science, University of Virginia (1971-1994), U.S. National Academy of Sciences Exchange Scholar, Soviet Academy of Sciences Institute for Physics of the Earth (1972), Member, Governor of Virginia Task Force on Transportation (1975), First Sid Richardson Professor, Lyndon Baines Johnson School for Public Affairs, University of Texas (1978), Vice Chairman and Member, National Advisory Committee on Oceans and Atmospheres (1981-1986), Senior Fellow, The Heritage Foundation (1982-1983), Member, U.S. Department of State Science Advisory Board (Oceans, Environment, Science) (1982-1987), Member, Acid Rain Panel, White House Office of Science and Technology Policy (1982-1987), Member, NASA Space Applications Advisory Committee (1983-1985), Member, U.S. Department of Energy Nuclear Waste Panel (1984), Visiting Eminent Scholar, George Mason University (1984-1987), Chief Scientist, U.S. Department of Transportation (1987-1989), Member, White House Panel on U.S.-Brazil Science and Technology Exchange (1987), Distinguished Research Professor, Institute for Space Science and Technology (1989-1994), Guest Scholar, Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars, Smithsonian Institute (1991), Guest Scholar, National Air and Space Museum, Smithsonian Institute (1991), Distinguished Visiting Fellow, The Hoover Institution, Stanford University (1992-1993), Distinguished Research Professor, Institute for Humane Studies, George Mason University (1994-2000), Commendation for Research on Particle Clouds, NASA (1997), Research Fellow, Independent Institute (1997), Director and President, The Science and Environmental Policy Project (1989-Present)

  10. Poptech says:
    November 11, 2010 at 9:09 am

    Dr. Singer’s scientific credentials are impeccable
    *************
    So what ? Does that make him right ?

    He is an ideologue

    There are five attributes of ideologues:
    1. Absence of doubt
    2. Intolerance of debate
    3. Appeal to authority
    4. A desire to convince others of the ideological “truth”
    5. A willingness to punish those that don’t concur
    Note that each of these characteristics is anathema to science.

    Expecting good science from ideologues is a futile.

  11. How quickly people forget their recent past. It is only 65 years ago that Nazism and WWII ended. The Berlin wall fell 21 years ago and Germany was reunited as a single democratic state. Now this. Suppression of dissent is not democracy. It is totalitarianism.

    I feel sad for the world.

  12. Desperate times call for desperate measures. We are witnessing the last stages of the death of AGW.

  13. Die Ökofascisten are getting desperate.
    Don’t worry, this is just like the Battle of the Bulge, cruel but irrelevant for the outcome in the end. By May next year, they will surrender.

  14. Is this significantly different then what we have heard and will continue to hear from any extreme on any subject. Remember the tradition of intolerance for difference runs deep, very deep in the culture of all European societies. We in the US and Canada need to remind ourselves that our culture and society is of European roots.

  15. ZT says:
    November 11, 2010 at 8:54 am
    I wonder what Angela Merkel, with a PhD in physics, would make of the creative details of principle component analysis as practiced by Mann et al!
    ———————-
    She was the first one I heard to pronounce that they, our God-like leaders, would restrict the global temperature rise to 2 degrees, as if they have some great big “climatometer” with a big dial on the front (in addition to being in control of the Chinese and Indian emissions). I’m not sure that the Ph.D. in Physics is helping much.

    Also, “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”

    http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_said_Those_who_ignore_history_are_bound_to_repeat_it

    These people would be well served by reading the Wikipedia entry for Joseph Goebbels. Warning: I found it to be a stomach-churning read at the end.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Goebbels

  16. If it is science, they will need to spread the agenda using science. If it is a militant bully enterprise, that is how they will further the alarmist cause.

  17. Welcome to the European Union. Those of us who monitor the machinations of the EU will be familiar with this sort of intimidation and oppression. Only yesterday, the EU’s Silent Assassin, otherwise known as Council President Herman Van Rompuy made the following comments in a speech in Berlin:

    “We have together to fight the danger of a new Euro-scepticism.
    This is no longer the monopoly of a few countries.
    In every Member State, there are people who believe their country can survive alone in the globalised world.
    It is more than an illusion: it is a lie!

    The time of the homogeneous nation-state is over.”

    These people are hell bent on creating a federal, undemocratic Europe and will stoop to anything to make it happen. Calling people Liars or Deniers is now standard practice in the EU so this story comes as no surprise whatsoever. The EU throw vast amounts of money at Climate Change projects around the world and would surely back these extremists in branding free thinkers as dangerous.

    Anthony, there could be no better day to post this in order to put things in perspective. Millions of brave people have made the ultimate sacrifice in the name of freedom only for power crazed, self interested politicians to try to take it away from us. They need to be held to account for their disgraceful actions.

  18. Not surprising. All this philosophy was born in Germany:

  19. I clicked the “Branding of Dissenters has Begun” link, then, at the bottom of that piece clicked the “Read here” link that leads on to more of the story and includes Ms Dotts Parliamentary email address, so I sent a message of support. If others follow that and send their own messages, (espcially German-speakers, unlike me), I’m sure the lady would appreciate it.

  20. Is this really what the AGW farce has come to? Are the warmists getting so desperate that they have to behave like militant students?

    Come the day when common sense and real science wins the AGW war, I hope there’s an equivalent of the Nuremberg Trials to hold the senior warmists to account. I’ll leave the historical parallel of Gore and Pachauri to the readers’ opinion.

  21. What? The germans are doing stupid and dangerous things again. Where’s General Patton and the Third Army when we need them?

  22. Maybe they’re afraid of the “Do-Over” ; )

    The New York Times

    http://www.nytimes.com/cwire/2010/09/23/23climatewire-rep-issa-would-lead-climategate-probe-if-hou-44766.html

    “Rep. Darrell Issa (R-Calif.), the ranking member of the Oversight and Government Reform Committee, said a probe of the “Climategate” scandal will top his environmental agenda…”

    “I do have a backburner investigation that I’m going to want to have completed, and that is, we paid a lot of money to have international evaluation, most of it done in Britain, that turns out to have been less than truthful in some of the figures,” he said. “We’re going to want to not investigate to get our money back, but we’re going to want to have a do-over of good numbers so that everyone can have confidence.”

  23. Hmmmm….okay, so germany needs

    – A Secret Police for keeping track of Deniers….let me see …hmm…
    Geheime Clima Polizei ? ( GeCliPo )
    Geheime Grun Polizei ? ( GeGruPo )

    -A way to reckognise the Denier….hmmmm….. A Tatoo on the arm which tell you
    what number you have on the Black List? Like… D 111222 (Denier number 111222)
    And maybe a yellow patch on the chest with a black Coal piece on it ? Easy to spot.

    -There might be neccessary to have some Camps for re-programming of the Deniers.
    Some doctors will be needed for injections of certain drugs. Maybe the deniers can
    work while in camp? Uranium mines?

    -May I suggest a new Jugend organisation ? Die Grune Jugend. You can easily recruit guards for the camps when they are indoctrinaded as young ones.

  24. WOW, just WOW. Reading this right after saying what I did in a post on the Armistice Day thread is chilling.

    The evil of WWI is not dead, its just in hiding … or was :(

  25. netdr2 says:
    November 11, 2010 at 9:19 am

    Poptech says:
    November 11, 2010 at 9:09 am

    Dr. Singer’s scientific credentials are impeccable
    *************
    So what ? Does that make him right ?

    He is an ideologue
    ========================================================

    That’s a beautiful assertion, and what is it that makes you call him an ideologue?

  26. The Green Party is very strong in Germany (as well as other EU countries, Brazil, Colombia, Australia and New Zealand). They are hard core collectivists, anti-industrial, anti-capitalism, pro-environmental fascism. This is very typical of them. With the Greens, you not only do not get a toy with the Happy Meal, you do not get the Happy or the Meal.

  27. JB says:
    November 11, 2010 at 10:04 am

    Yet everyone here is ok with the persecution attempts of Mann et al?

    You use the term persecution when what is really happening is that his own assertions and methods are having light shone on them. If it is persecuting someone to hold them to their word, then god help us all.

  28. It is sickening that German politicians use their parliamentary powers to brandmark publicly those whose opinion is not in lockstep with theirs.

    I applaud Anthony and P.Gosselin and Lubos Motl to blog about this on this day where we remember those who died for freedom – fighting those Germans twice in the last century.

    Will they never learn?

  29. Undoubtedly, there are many in Germany who favour the concept of a Fourth Reich.

    History has shown that stifling dissent appears to be ingrained into their culture.

  30. No doubt Angela Merkel is a politician. I am just noting that her scientific background and training make it unlikely that she’ll be fooled into reading too much into sloppy-PCA derived ‘Hockey Sticks’.

    I hope that an enterprising journalist, or opposition politician, will take the time to ask her if she has personally reviewed the statistical ‘analysis’ underlying the Hockey Stick. This would be illuminating for the German electorate.

  31. uhhhh, not nice stuff. And I seem to remember Fred Singer is of Jewish parentage too.

    netdr2 says: November 11, 2010 at 9:19 am

    …[Singer] is an ideologue

    There are five attributes of ideologues:
    1. Absence of doubt
    2. Intolerance of debate
    3. Appeal to authority
    4. A desire to convince others of the ideological “truth”
    5. A willingness to punish those that don’t concur
    Note that each of these characteristics is anathema to science.

    Expecting good science from ideologues is a futile.

    Whose info are you trusting without checking as per Scientific Method, netdr2? Clearly you haven’t read Singer’s damn good book of science that has nothing to do with a single one of your points.

  32. Obviously as they’re losing the debate, the more extreme elements will come out with more and more outlandish and ridiculous statements. I find it all rather entertaining.

  33. Green parties are simply eco totalitarism in disguise when they are 8%, without disguise when they rise to 20%…
    Check desmogblog and replace “denier” by any other racial name, this is no different than in the 1930s.

  34. I think a letter sent to the Germany goverment in the same lines as Matt Ridley’s reply to David MacKay signed by as many of the people affected would be best.

    Nothing helps more when people are screaming and yelling than resonably explaining why you think they are incorrect in a level voice.

    This is one where you just have to wait for the German goverments response.

  35. >> JB says:
    November 11, 2010 at 10:04 am
    Yet everyone here is ok with the persecution attempts of Mann et al? <<

    How exactly is Mann being 'persecuted'? By asking him to release his data and code? By asking for E-mails relevant to taxpayer-funded activities? No one here is asking for him to be locked up for his beliefs.

  36. JB, exactly what persecution are you referring to? Investigation of scientific error is not necessarily persecution (although I’m sure Mann feels it is). McIntyre and McKittrick have been polite and courteous, while being thorough and unrelenting in exposing the inaccuracies of Mann’s work.

    Investigation of Michael Mann has been directly specifically at particular pieces of his work; the German government is attempting to suppress debate and research in a broad area by a substantial number of people. Do not conflate the two in your attempted tu quoque.

  37. nice try with the Mann comparison, but it won’t watch. Mann is accused of deliberately inventing data so he could scam public funds to keep his own career going.

    In more direct words, Mann is being investigated not because of his opinions, but because there is a credible allegation that he is nothing more than a con artist and a thief who is responsible for the misallocation of millions of dollars worth of public funds.

  38. Where do the accusations against Fred Singer originate – and what does that facet have to do with the November 2 US House elections? Perhaps a very distinct opportunity to find out what prompted the accusations from the start, whether they have any voracity, and what role they have played in keeping the so-called AGW crisis alive for longer than it would survived otherwise – please see my article “How an Enviro-Advocacy Group Propped Up Global Warming in the MSM – A Nov 2 Election Connection” http://bigjournalism.com/rcook/2010/11/02/how-an-enviro-advocacy-group-propped-up-global-warming-in-the-msm-a-nov-2-election-connection/

  39. Quite understandable in Germany where the green movement was born and reinforced by Rudolf’s Steiner “Anthroposophy” there. However it is inexplicable among those who specially suffered the consequences of this movement in the 20th century and now fund and subscribe totally to it. A kind of Copenhagen syndrome?

  40. Germans can’t take too much CO2. Their beer is some of the bestest in the Welt but it has very high levels of CO2. I can atest to both from personal experience. Too much CO2 makes Germans hot. It’s time to close every brewery in the country or it will be only a matter of time before we’re off again to North Africa, Sicily, Italy, and Normandy (not to mention what the Russians are going to do to them). Gott in Himmel! Was is loss? Der Hund ist loss!

  41. ‘Ve haff vays of making you COMPLY with ze INCONTRAVERTIBLE view zat man is varmink ze planet…
    Ve KNOW zat you deniers are all funded by Big Oil – it is IMPOSSIBLE for you to haff such STUPID ideas ozzerwise…
    For you – ze war is over…’

  42. In the German concentration camps, only 1 group had the ability to leave at any time. There were the Jehovah’s Witnesses. To leave, all they had to do was sign a declaration renouncing their faith; few did. The Jews wore a yellow star, the communist wore red triangles, the homosexuals a pink triangle, the gypsies a black triangle, and the Jehovah’s Witnesses a purple triangle. Only if you had a single purple triangle could you leave.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%27s_Witnesses_and_the_Holocaust

    It is not to much of an imagination to think this might happen again, except with eco-fascism instead. Those considered to be impure would not be able to leave. This would likely include anyone who is very wealthy but did not get their wealth from preaching the doctrine of global warming. Al Gore, for instance, not impure. Brian Moynihan, CEO of Bank of America the largest American bank, impure. Mr. Moynihan lives in Boston, but works in Charlotte, NC and I doubt he flies commercial. The CEO’s of oil companies, impure too. But one group can escape the judgment. Climate scientists can escape at any time if they renounce their belief in man-made global warming.

    What will we have to wear? Will I have on a black triangle or a purple one?

  43. Yes PAt, the Green party is quite strong in Germany….But I think that they are not as strong as they were a few years ago. Here in Belgium, the greens are qui strong too, but they do not expand further than their historical score about 10 years ago. I think that in many european countries, they are in fact receeding and will stabilize around an equilibrium of 10%….in the countries where they do not dislocate in self-fighting fractions. This is their natural place, given that you can count on at least 10% of people beeing collectivist. What happened was they got the vote of people being concerned by environment (preservation of endangered species, reducing pollution,…) without beeing collectivist….but a few taxes later, the green movement is starting to show his ugly head. A few more scandals (CAGW will do nicely, we just need 1 or 2 cold winters) and they should be in real trouble.

    Only in the northern Europe (Norway, sweeden,…) could they really get power. Thoe countries are already deep in a collectivist nanny state trip, much broader that the greens.

  44. Scooper says: November 11, 2010 at 9:34 am
    Welcome to the European Union. Those of us who monitor the machinations of the EU will be familiar with this sort of intimidation and oppression. Only yesterday, the EU’s Silent Assassin, otherwise known as Council President Herman Van Rompuy made the following comments in a speech in Berlin:
    “We have together to fight the danger of a new Euro-scepticism.
    This is no longer the monopoly of a few countries.
    In every Member State, there are people who believe their country can survive alone in the globalised world.
    It is more than an illusion: it is a lie!
    —————————————————————————————Scooper. Agreed. The EU’s objective of undemocratic rule over Europe has been very plain to see for a very long time. The AGW agenda fits perfectly with that of the EU. What better excuse to browbeat individual European states into compliance and submission than the fear of AGW. It is a perfect vehicle for that agenda. Is it any wonder that the EU is the main political supporter of AGW.

    Douglas

  45. Not surprising, the Germans, as I recall, had the first Green Party with any real clout going way back into the early 80s. Germans, for all their admirable features and contributions, are extremely xenophobic, culturally and ideologically, and have been even before there was a Germany to speak of. Neo-Nazism has been simmering just below the surface since VE day and the mentality is just looking for any form of expression. First quell dissent, identify dissidents, remove them from public life. Harangue your neighbors to conform and capitulate. If that doesn’t work send the GG Panzer Divisions into Poland to force change.
    [ you do realize that if you said such things about some other racial groupings you would be accused of racism don’t you? . . mod]

  46. Peter Miller says:
    November 11, 2010 at 10:21 am

    There is a very dark joke about it: ” This time kilns will be of the microwave kind” . Another reason to make impossible to understand why those who suffered the consequences are the bigger supporters of the “ecological/green/GWR” movement all around the world. It would finish in a second if not being extensively funded by known people and their banks. Think it over guys!

  47. Naturally if dissenting opinions can lead to scientific ostracism, job in-security, loss, intimidation, blacklisting, etc, then it is only just and fitting that should those who perpetuate such actions be proved wrong or even mistaken be held personally accountable (and not a wrist slapping). It is only a short jump from labeling to separation to persecution. These actions walk the well worn path of discrimination, racial and religious intolerance. What I find incredibly hypocritical is its left wing and liberal origins, supposedly the center of equality and social justice. – bah spare me the BS, PLEASE.

  48. S Basinger says:
    November 11, 2010 at 8:52 am

    “A modest proposal for BÜNDNIS 90/DIE GRÜNEN – perhaps all ‘deniers’ should be made to wear a symbol of some type. Perhaps a star?”

    I think, more appropriately, a sun. I’ll proudly wear one.

  49. As German I can only say sorry for such crazy thoughts and “ideas” green coloured people can have – they show how far from democratic rules they move.
    (red and green “well mixed” = brown…)

  50. I read all the comments so far and I don’t understand nobody seems to get the true meaning behind this?
    This can be a great development for the sceptics.
    The greens in Germany have now publicly admitted that:

    1. The scientific consensus in climate science was and is a lie.
    2. The illusion of a consensus can only be upheld by totalitarian methods.

  51. I am greatly confused.

    While the parlimentarians clearly are pro-AGW, what they are seeking is a *query* seeking clarificantion of the government’s position and understandng of global warming. There is nothing remoting resembling “demanding that the German government take a position against dissenting views in climate science.” The link is there — read the (translated) original document.

    Isn’t that what skeptics have been clamoring for? To have governments take a look at the facts?

    “1. Is the German Government aware of a scientifically published paper that has been subjected to peer review that questions climate change caused by man, and that is supported by scientific data?”
    This is a golder OPPORTUNITY to present that list of peer reviewed papers that question AGW. We already know there are sympathetic ears in the German government!

    “2. In the view of the German Government’s leadership, is there a scientific discussion on whether climate change is taking place and whether man has a decisive impact on climate?”
    This is a golden OPPORTUNITY to let the Greman government know what sort of scientific discussion there is on humanity’s impact on climate.

    “3. Is the German Government aware of the publications from American physicist Fred Singer on the subject of climate protection? How does the German Government view the scientific reputation of Mr Singer in regards to climate protection.”
    This is a golden OPPORTUNITY to show how reputible and correct Fred Singer is.

    I will grant you that the *expectation* of the query is that AGW will affirmed. The expecation is that Fred Singer will be found to be unreliable.

    But what a golden OPPORTUNITY. The German government is being asked to investigate the claims!

  52. ‘But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” ‘

    Green fascism came from Nazism. Throw in a sprinkling of Marx and Engels, and add nationalism and romanticism, and you have a potent brew of ecofascism. Germany is a fertile breeding ground for this kind of nonsense, and no sort of ‘liberation’ of the country in the last war or at the fall of the Iron Curtain is going to stop it reverting to type.

  53. “Krishna Gans says:
    November 11, 2010 at 11:23 am

    As German I can only say sorry for such crazy thoughts and “ideas” green coloured people can have – they show how far from democratic rules they move.
    (red and green “well mixed” = brown…)”

    LOL. Good analogy.

  54. I think a letter sent to the Germany Goverment, like Matt Ridley’s to David MacKay, in reply to what best can be described as a demand that the German goverment silence all ‘Deniers’, would be best to deal with this situation.

    Although I don’t hold much hope for David MacKay in the UK as the UK goverment has show with Prof. David Nutt what happens to scientists with a diffrent opinion to the goverment line.

    The best way to deal with yellers and screamers is to point out the reason you believe they are worng in a level and calm voice, although this may lead to louder yelling and screaming.

  55. The Germans are being consistent.

    The Germans, in their zeal to stomp out anything Nazi, have passed laws that essentially make it illegal to deny the holocaust. In Germany, deniers are therefore illegal.

    My question is this: (I really don’t know the answer.) Is there any evidence that making something a thought crime has any positive effect? Is there any evidence that Germany, in particular, is a more tolerant place because of these laws?

    What I have observed is that people, who are absolutely convinced that they are absolutely correct morally, usually aren’t. You have fifteen seconds to think of a dozen examples where that has caused unspeakable evil: you can start with the holocaust.

  56. netdr2 says:
    November 11, 2010 at 9:19 am

    Poptech says:
    November 11, 2010 at 9:09 am

    Dr. Singer’s scientific credentials are impeccable
    *************
    So what ? Does that make him right ?

    He is an ideologue

    There are five attributes of ideologues:
    1. Absence of doubt
    2. Intolerance of debate
    3. Appeal to authority
    4. A desire to convince others of the ideological “truth”
    5. A willingness to punish those that don’t concur
    Note that each of these characteristics is anathema to science.

    Expecting good science from ideologues is a futile.

    Hey, netdr2, you list EXACTLY THOSE POINTS that describe the Kool Aid-drinking warmers: Have you seen ANY of those animals:
    1. Express any doubt whatsoever, even in the slightest, about CAGW?
    2. Displayed tolerance of debate? (Hell, WHAT debate, I ask you!)
    3. Ever NOT appeal to authority!
    4. Express a civil desire (rather than resort to threats of death, jail time, or physical violence) to convince others of the ideological “truth”.
    5. Not voice a willingness to punish those that don’t concur with CAGW (or whatever Joe Romm wants to call the subject nowadays).

    Please note that ALL of these characteristics are anathema to science. Please also note that ALL of these non-scientific characteristics are displayed in abundance by the acolytes of CAGW.

    Now, what were you saying about expecting good science from ideologues? You’re saying it’s futile?

    On that we can agree.

    I strongly recommend that you quit making a fool of yourself.

  57. [ you do realize that if you said such things about some other racial groupings you would be accused of racism don’t you? . . mod]

    I think of Germany as a political grouping with a rich cultural heritage and a long history within Europe… that is all.

    Europeans have a long history of interbreeding… with a bit of rape and pillage thrown in for good measure from assorted marauding hordes… about as pure as a bag of jelly beans… but please correct me if I am wrong.

  58. I don’t care for the Germany bashing. I think there are desperate greenies all over the world who are using whatever means they can to destroy AGW skeptics. Just wait, it wouldn’t surprise me to see something similar in the US congress and other legislative bodies elsewhere.

  59. You don’t know that you have already LOST THE GAME: Every US company, if it wants to sell its products, as any in the world, has to comply with the Brussels’ International Standards Organization; remember ISO 9000, ISO 9001, ISO 14000 and the like?: You signed them buddies! The American ASTM was trashed long ago.
    I don’t know if you have signed a Free Trade Agreement with the EU, but if you have…you are done also: It is not signed without signing the “Association Clause”, which is a binding agreement that you will obey their rules.
    You will have to revise EVERY binding agreement you have signed with the United Nations, as these were concocted and intended for the “Global Governance”….Now, if you do not think as you are supposed to by THEIR rules you risk to be anathematized for ever. “Wake up O’ little Susie!”…..you are not virgin anymore :-)

  60. @Krishna Gans – According to Jaqnzen’s biography of Hitler, the reason that the brown shirts were brown was that he was able to pick up lots of them quite cheap on the surplus market after WW 1. They could have just as easily been gangrene green, black or some other color. In any case, he liquidated them in 1934 after they served their purpose for him.

  61. The German Party “THE GREENS”…

    … looks like a melon:
    green at first view
    but simply red inside,
    and while checking its doubtful taste,
    the bitter pips you are spitting,
    show a deep brown color.

  62. If we continue the parallel with WW2, is the AGW war now at the same stage as WW2 was in 1943? That is, the turning point! That crucial period when it became clear that the Axis Powers (the warmists) were losing and the Allies (the scientists) were winning.

    Just as the Italians changed sides and overthrew their fascist leaders, how soon will we see prominent warmists defecting to the Allies.

  63. JB said: “Yet everyone here is ok with the persecution attempts of Mann et al?”

    Two incredible assertions! Care to provide 1) examples of Mann being persecuted and 2) everyone here agreeing with those persecutions? Surely you have read Anthony Watts’ comments about Virginia Attorney General Cuccinelli’s abuses.

    Mann’s work has been severely criticized, and rightly so. His attitude is equally pathetic and that has been the subject of jest. I know of no persecutions that come close to undoing the university whitewashes from which he has benefited.

  64. Funnily it began long ago, with an square triangle, where the square angle measured not the 90 degrees we all know but 100 degrees. This is called the International System of Measures. Its purpose: To make impossible to realize what laws govern nature and being blessed with Holy Ignorance (“Agnosticism”) you could be much more easily controlled: Shortly: A Good and Conscious Kid, a good believer in Green philosophy, etc.,etc. a ‘FREE” thinker and not a troublesome American “Cowboy”who, worst of all, it’s a hell of God’s believer, thus you will be a Gay citizen, willfully accepting non reproductive practices, birth control, and niceties like that…….Now: “Just smile…though your heart is aching” :-)

  65. Possibly but I have a pretty good grasp on German history and politics, so let’s not sugar coat the issue, from the unification of Germany born of the Franco-Prussian War the Germans started three major wars (you can argue WWI to some extent, but they were certainly the catalist) and committed horrid atrocities in two of them. While not unique in antisemitism in Europe, Germany has been the most “emphatic” in their prosecution. The forces of “good” in modern Germany since 1945 have constantly struggled against a farily broad segement of the population that has been pro-Nazi and pro-Communist.

    I come from a German background, not too far removed fromt the Fatherland.

  66. Great that you give it exposure, Anthony.
    Our German Greens are absolutely outraged that any politician in Germany could have the nerve to dare to *listen* to a scientist with a non-consensus opinion. Can’t have that, no.
    I hope they get exposed as the zealots they are. They need to be kept in check.
    Here is the website of their youth organization. Behold the raised fist.

    http://www.gruene-jugend.de/

  67. I also demand that all who constantly use the words “fossil fuel industry” as a term to describe all that is evil; desist immediately from any use of, derived from or in any way connected to the said product of Satan. After all religious adherence and devotion requires at the very least abstinence and a meaningful sacrifice on the part of true devotees. But please have the virtue to do it in silence lest you pervert your faith as a noisy gong and a clanging symbol. In the mean time the rest of us sinners will try to provide a way that doesn’t require martyrdom.

  68. Malaga View says:
    November 11, 2010 at 11:03 am
    “As they say: May You Live In Interesting Times in Germany.

    German people in unprecedented rebellion against government: 1000 injured in protests in nuclear protests: police at breaking point”

    The Greens counted everyone who got a little bit of tear gas as injured. Our police treats them as if they were celebrities. Pure propaganda.

  69. Man, they really don’t like Fred Singer.
    I wonder if it would trouble them to know
    that Fred Singer has surpassed the Corona
    guy as: “The most interesting man alive?”
    Everyone loves Fred Singer, but them.
    Maybe the German government can get
    them some help so that they too can love
    Fred Singer.

  70. I am not going to defend the Germans. They are .. I cannot explain this in a few words.

    HOWEVER, please consider:

    1. These are opposition MPs. The political theatre, in lack of a better term, consists of the government boasting and the opposition complaining. These Anfragen are a dime a dozen. Nothing much comes out of it. They are usually complaints clothed in rhetorical questions, and usually the answer is, we are not aware and everything is A-OK.

    2. I think you are too hard on the MPs. In their minds, climate sceptics are pseudo-scientists. Imagine your government inviting homoeopaths and wizards, would you not speak up on that? (Incidentally, “alternative” medicine is quite en vogue with the greenish voters..)

  71. Pull My Finger says:
    November 11, 2010 at 11:03 am

    “Not surprising, the Germans, as I recall, had the first Green Party with any real clout going way back into the early 80s. ”

    The roots go back to the Wandervögel movement in the 20ies and 30ies, and from there back to Rudolf Steiner, the founder of antroposophism in the 19th century. 70% of the members of the Wandervögel movement became members of the NSDAP, a far higher proportion than in the general population, as the NSDAP had environmental protection as one of their proposed goals.

  72. Anthony Watts wrote:
    “The seeds of tyranny appear to be taking hold again in the German government at least when it comes to climate change issues. – Anthony”

    I guess Anthony doesn’t know much about German politics. He seems to think the Green Party is running the German government. As far as I know, the ruling party is CDP under Angela Merkel.

    I think that part of the post needs to be corrected.

    REPLY: You have NO IDEA WHAT I THINK. – take a timeout, pretty much fed up with you. – Anthony

  73. Lucy Skywalker says:
    November 11, 2010 at 10:22 am

    “uhhhh, not nice stuff. And I seem to remember Fred Singer is of Jewish parentage too.”

    The German Left was always extremely anti-Israeli. All of them, including the Greens, had, and most still have, Palestinian scarves, Arafat-style.

  74. The American reader might think that this is an official statement of the German government. It is not.

    The Greens are an opposition party in the German Bundestag. Opposition parties are supposed to produce queries like this, to highlight their differences with the parties in power. The appropriate Cabinet minister is then supposed to respond to the query, in a manner that makes the opposition look silly and misinformed. Which in this case will be easy.

    Politics as usual it seems. No need to bring up ugly ghosts from the past. This from a Scandinavian point of view, would like to hear what Germans themselves think. Anyone?

  75. Re: Dave Springer says:

    Has the German gov’t picked out a symbol that AGW skeptics will have to display on their clothing in public yet?

    Previous German goverments had a whole range of symbols for undesirables-

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_concentration_camp_badges

    So it would be nice to see German sceptics wearing the red triangles with pride. The greens, well, they also have their own logo which seems rather apt given their subsidy and rent seeking activities.

  76. Just as an example over 20% of the German electorate voted for what could be called extremest parties in 2009, making considerable gains.
    “The Left” – Basically Communists – 11.1%
    “the Greens” 9.2%
    Various Dodgey Far Left Groups. 0.3%
    and the New nazis
    The NDP- 1.8%. Small, but still nearly 1 in 50 voters with some strong local showings.
    So nealry 1/4 Germans can be considered to hold extremist political views, at least for the eyes of Americans and British Commonwealth folk.
    Any German folk on the list please let me know if my definition of these groups is unfair.

  77. Malaga View says:
    November 11, 2010 at 11:03 am
    As they say: May You Live In Interesting Times in Germany.

    German people in unprecedented rebellion against government: 1000 injured in protests in nuclear protests: police at breaking point

    See: http://axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/Article_61620.shtml

    =======
    Wow!!!

    “The CDU/CSU/FDP government has already hit record lows in the polls and after Sunday’s savage police operation against peaceful protestors, support for them is sure to plummet further.”

    “The feudal lords without a feudal army to push through their agenda of robbery are facing the end of the road now that their media propaganda apparatus based on the Springer and Bertelsmann empire is falling apart and their strategy of divide and rule through a false left/right political paradigm is no longer working.”

    “A new freedom and power was born in the woods of Wendland. And it belonged to the people who have had enough of the arrogant authoritarian political class.”

  78. A group of politicians grandstanding and acting like jackasses is no reason to denounce Germany. There is plenty of that in America. Remember Boxer wanting to throw people in jail over Climategate?

    If they act, that is different. For now paying attention is enough. The German people are not the problem. It was not the German Army that comitted the great atrocities. It is always the small group that tries to control the people that is the problem.

  79. James Sexton, Lucy Skywalker :

    netdr2 says:
    November 11, 2010 at 9:51 am
    I apologize to Professor S. Fred Singer
    I was wrong.

    [Reply: There was no moderation coverage for a time, so netdr2’s apology was not seen until after other responses were made to the original post. netdr2’s apology is very much appreciated. ~dbs, mod.]

  80. FWIW, I got my own doctoral degree in Germany, and I worked with a guy with a PhD (Dr.rer.nat) in physics from Leipzig who had been a close colleague of Angela Merkel’s before she got into politics. Her specialization is quantum chemistry and, according to him, she is very good – and having been raised in East Germany, one might expect that – like Vaclav Klaus – she would know to be wary of this kind of official thinking and suppression of dissent. However, she is also a cunning politician who, from being Helmut Kohl’s token Eastern Germany female cabinet member, managed to succeeed him as party leader. She did go along with the nonsense about “not allowing the temperature in 100 years to get more than 2 degrees higher” statement. It’s impossible to know what her private views may be. Some time ago, many German skeptics sent her a letter – Marc Morano published a translation here:

    http://www.climatedepot.com/a/2282/Consensus-Takes-Another-Hit-More-than-60-German-Scientists-Dissent-Over-Global-Warming-Claims-Call-Climate-Fears-Pseudo-Religion-Urge-Chancellor-to-reconsider-views

    Whatever her personal views are, her problem is political. She managed – barely – to defeat Gerhard Schroeder’s SPD/Green coalition in 2005, so she probably can’t afford to be “out-greened” too much. That coalition had been elected with a promise to phase out nuclar power – something that Merkel has quietly slowed down.

    Having said that – the main reason for the popularity of the Green Party, at the time, was the personal charisma (as some people would call it) of its then leader, Joschka Fischer. Renate Kuenast, who signed the letter posted here, was broadly seen as a loon. Without Fischer, who was a much wilier politician, hopefully they will shoot themselves in the foot.

  81. PhilinCalifornia says:
    November 11, 2010 at 9:30 am

    “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”

    And Harry Truman’s “The only things you don’t know about people is the history you haven’t read”

  82. Soooooo the zealous German Parliamentarians have issued a fatwa against anyone questioning the absolute truth of Man Made Global Warming, eh? Can Jihad be far behind? If I used the UN-IPCC report to clean my toilet, will they send out their jihadi assassins to murder me?

    Sir Isaac Newton, we grasp your travails with historical clarity now….

  83. It has been said before:

    “First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.”

    We’re in stage 3 now. Victory is near. Cancun will be the Waterloo for Climatism.

  84. The seeds of tyranny appear to be taking hold again in the German government at least when it comes to climate change issues

    Shouldn’t that be parliament, not government?

  85. Enneagram

    Hitler regarded Rudolf Steiner as his number one enemy and tried to kill him – because Steiner knew the depth of Hitler’s evil. It’s a real perversion to lump Steiner together with Hitler. They couldn’t be further apart.

    You should know to be very wary of Wikipedia-like info, and to go to the best sources you can find, on both sides.

    Some of Steiner’s followers, however, are, let’s say, “quaint” – but that has nothing to do with the stature of Steiner himself.

  86. I wonder what they would call Martin Luther had he been nailing his thoughts on the Church door in the 21st century.

  87. I visited Germany this time last year, and was asked by my German hosts my opinion on AGW, I replied I wasn’t quite sure! they were all amazed, they just expected me to conform, as they did.

  88. Let’s not be so hasty in our condemnation of the Germans as a group. Take a look around here in the good old US of A (and other countries) at how “deniers” are treated. We are just more sneaky about how we go about it. See any grants ($$) out there to disprove AGW? “Settled science”? EPA going after carbon? “An Inconvenient Truth” wins awards? Algore wins awards? Many scientists fear being called a “denier”. ETC.

    In typical German style, they take the ball and run with it, straight ahead, three yards and a cloud of dust. At least you know where they stand. A little R&R might be at work here, maybe, ie Rigidity and Rules. A German stereotype. I have, however, found that stereotypes are generally true of large groups of the same types (cultures, races) of people; of individuals, not so much. But then I have also noticed that it seems to be OK to be racist when it comes to picking on the Germans. Movies, recently, seem to like to depict the bad guys as as being right wing, facists or Germans (Die Hard 1,2,3…). And, no, I am not German.

    All of those invested heavily in AGW, be it money or reputation, seem to be willing to throw others under the bus, not just the Germans.

  89. ..according to my calendar, it’s about time for Germany to invade France again.

    Happy Veteran’s Day, thanks for keeping up the fight for truth, Anthony!!

  90. “The time of the homogeneous nation-state is over”

    That’s not the problem. China, Japan, and South Korea are homogenous nation-states and they seem to be doing just fine. The problem with Europe is sloth.

  91. CRS, Dr.P.H. says:
    November 11, 2010 at 1:12 pm
    “..according to my calendar, it’s about time for Germany to invade France again.”

    But then, if they were your neighbors, you might feel the same!

  92. D. King says:
    November 11, 2010 at 12:21 pm

    I wonder if it would trouble them to know
    that Fred Singer has surpassed the Corona
    guy as: “The most interesting man alive?”

    Partial credit for naming another Mexican beer but it’s Dos Equis not Corona.

  93. “German people in unprecedented rebellion against government: 1000 injured in protests in nuclear protests: police at breaking point”

    See: http://axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/Article_61620.shtml

    Yes that’s what my country – I’m ashamed to say – has come to: The thugs rule, and the Police has apparently run out of bullets. What we need is the Endlager for the anti-nuclear terrorists and eco-fascists, or they will re-open Auschwitz for us who are still stupid enough to earn their own living rather than lazy bums squandering their unemployment benefit with boozing on the streets and “demonstrating” (read: trying to intimidate) those that feed them. Shameful!

  94. Gagging free speech and people’s right to opine will only result in a revolt that grows larger than it was originally.

    When “the few” get stopped in their tracks and made to “shut up”, the masses gather and grow to fight back… whether they agree with “the few” or not.

    These futile attempts to end the debate will only feed the fire.

    /psychology 101

  95. “When I first saw this I thought to myself “maybe posting this isn’t appropriate on Veterans Day”. Then, after additional reflection, I realized this is exactly what our American veterans and the allies fought for: freedom of speech and freedom from tyranny”.

    Thanks for re-publishing this post Anthony and thanks for your fine introduction.
    This is exactly what this is all about.

    Last full measure of devotion.

    http://factsnotfantasy.blogspot.com/2010/11/last-full-measure-of-devotion.html

  96. It is not (very) unfair, just … it’s like explaining a pocket calculator as a “very fast abacus”.

    The political coordinate systems are pretty much different.

    For instance, all parties, except maybe the lunatic F.D.P. fringe, are in favor of socialized health care, and other things. There are minor quarrels about how much more taxes should be raised for this, and how far the benefits should be reduced.

    You can certainly read up on that on your own.

    I am not overly concerned with what the fringe is babbling (BTW, the “Nazis” are basically secret service honeypots), I am concerned about how it goes without saying that the government will push through what the fringe only talks about. For instance, gender mainstreaming is official CDU policy, as is climate change, and consider how a member of the ruling coalition was treated when she listened to some “deniers”.

  97. UK John says:
    November 11, 2010 at 1:11 pm
    “jorgekafkazar says:

    Meute ??????”
    Try
    Heute Deutschland, morgen die Welt.

    (Germany today, tomorrow the world)

  98. I have the great honour to be able to call Fred Singer a friend. That anybody would impugn the integrity and honesty of this truly great man offends me.

    OK, so it is Geman ‘Greens’ who have the audacity to impugn Fred, but the salient point is that they are Greens, NOT that they are German.

    My family lost everything when they were blitzed by the German Luftwaffe in WW2, but they lost everything in a war that was intended to rid the world of an evil which condemned people because of their race, their nationality, their religion, their sexuality or their political beliefs. Hence, I take umbrage at the several anti-German posts in this thread.

    Today is Armastice Day when we remember people who sacrificed and suffered up to and including death in wars that they hoped would eradicate the discredit of people on the basis of their views, beliefs, nationalities or genes.

    It saddens me almost to tears that on Armistice Day I read the attacks on Fred because of his views and the insults to Germans because they are German.

    Richard

  99. The eco facist greens are getting desperate as they see their defeat looming. In the accompanying story:

    http://notrickszone.com/2010/09/20/german-parliamentarian-under-massive-fire-for-skepticism/

    The greens and the media attacked this German MP for calling AGW a crock, but it’s what the voters think that is important, and you know the greens are on the ropes when the German public stop believing this alarmist green dribble. When Germany bails out so will the rest of Europe, and now that the USA is pulling the plug it’s just a matter of time. The deep financial trouble caused by the recession in the spendthrift socialist EU countries will be the final nail in the coffin. You can’t spend money when you’re next to bankrupt – GAME OVER GREENIES, and good riddance too.

  100. Dan J says:

    “The Greens are an opposition party in the German Bundestag. Opposition parties are supposed to produce queries like this, to highlight their differences with the parties in power.”

    Plain wrong! No appeasement politics this time.

    The Greens obviously “are …” NOT “… supposed to produce queries like this”.

    There is so much poorly hidden advocacy and infamousness shining up behind these questions that they wether should be ignored nor be accepted.

    Do you really think or are you just trying to make us believe that the official speakers of the German Greens ignore the scientific debate on the climate issue?

    “No need to bring up ugly ghosts from the past”

    YUP. Let’s start with the inapproriate use of the term “Denier” or its german equivalent “Klimaleugner” (climate liar) an absolutely thoughtless and perfidious derivation of the word “Holocaust-Leugner”.
    No need for translating this one, I suppose.

    Besides that we may point out the sheer stupidity of the failed connotation: do you know someone contradicting the existence of a phenomenon called climate?

  101. Dave Springer says:
    November 11, 2010 at 1:39 pm

    Partial credit for naming another Mexican beer but it’s Dos Equis not Corona.

    Thanks Dave, I stand corrected.

  102. You may not like what was said but there is no law against saying it. The real worry is that those enjoying the freedom to speak their mind want to remove that freedom from others. The subject does not matter but the intent does.

  103. Richard S Courtney says:
    November 11, 2010 at 2:02 pm

    It saddens me almost to tears that on Armistice Day I read the attacks on Fred because of his views and the insults to Germans because they are German.

    ——————

    I agree entirely, Richard. As some one else commented in this thread, the inclination to totalitarianism is found in every culture, not just Germany. We’re seeing it here in Canada, too, as people are afraid to say what they think on several major issues that are confronting our society. Political correctness and the name-calling and labelling that go with it have silenced the vigorous debate that is necessary for democracy. Unfortunately, this trend is most pronounced in our universities.

  104. What a load of rubish. I am German and can confirm that this guy pooh-poohed his pants after hitting the crack pipe. The largest part of this query concerns the question as to whether or not the government is aware of any dissenting scientific opinion. I don’t even want to read the translation, it would be a waste of time. Nothing to see here, except for a bog standard parliamentary inquiry. Oh, and you shouldn’t have posted such BS with ‘pogrom’ and other obviously vitriolic and retarded references, they are not due, as is the entire utterance.

  105. Grow up folks. German officials have every right to ask if public funds are being used to support U.S. oil company front groups. Now not all deniers are funded by industry and there a handful of genuine skeptics. But the parliament members are asking about a group that is a front group for industry.

    This is certainly nothing compared to what the Virginia Attorney General has tired to do.

  106. The Germans, more than any other people that I know of that have committed atrocities, have seriously struggled with their dark past, and have turned their country into a real democracy.
    German kids deal with horrors like Auschwitz and Buchenwald in high school.

    I think that invoking pogroms and the Kristallnacht when a few opposition parliamentarians ask the government a question about climate skeptics, is not reasonable.
    We don’t like to be called deniers, let’s not associate them with Nazis and other anti-semitics. It doesn’t make us look like serious, concerned citizens, but like out of control fanatics.

    Let them do the frothy-mouthed fanatic thing. The more they call us deniers, the more unreasonable they show themselves to be. The weaker their position gets.

  107. I am not a politician, but indeed a German, I am not connected to the so colled ‘green’ lobby organisations. Despite the fact that I avoided buying a car, since I do live in an urban agglomaration, I do not recall ever having done something specific that you could call ecology-minded. Just to make this clear I am not a tree hugger.

    If you a relly considering Fred Singer a relible scientist, and his work empiric I can just commiserate with you.
    Despite his vita, he is also know for very controverse positions including:

    – denial of existance on a connection between passive smoking and lung cancer
    – denial of existance on a connection of CFC emission and influence on the ozone layer

    It is well known that he contributed to several studies, that were directly or inderectly commissioned by Exxon and the API, especially the ones that were designed to implicate a major dissence between climate researchers concerning the urge for immediate action.

    Guys like him claimed and are claiming, that there is no climate change and that there is no increase of the temperatures, at all.
    Now he revises his position, claiming that the climate change is not anthropomorphic phenomenon but a periodic recurring event, similar to the different changes between ice and warm ages.

    Only with my limited knowledge and of course with some research that I have done before posting this comment, I can just say the following:

    Considering Fred Singer and his researches reliable, or even considering him a scientist at all is ridiculous.
    But to construct a connection between the openly expressed suspicion of parts of the German parliament to economic lobbyists, to who Singer belongs, and the Nazis whose devastating, murderous and rogue reign resulted in genocide and a world-wide military conflict… well, that is just a testimony of ignorance.

    Please do not misunderstand me, I do not feel insulted if Tom, Dick or Harry are trying to end up disussions with Germans with Nazi- or Communist compromises, once they are running out of arguments. I just think to simplify things to an absurd level, especially if we are upset is natural for most of us.
    But pardon me to say this, … your pathos is causing me to laugh out loud :D

  108. As environmentally aware of mankind’s responsibility to the planet’s flora and fauna as a large percentage of the German population is, most do not subscribe to the hysterical proclamation of Thermageddon by the alarmist crowd. For the pragmatic German that is far too emotionally charged a claim to be taken seriously.

    The Green Party achieved its greatest triumph by coming into power under Joschka Fischer and at the same time creating the conditions of their decline – sacrificing their (and their voters’) ideals on the altar of Realpolitik and forcing environmental concerns onto the agendas of Germany’s mainstream parties. Now that they have both disenfranchised their core voting base and with the less loony green ideas accepted by their rivals they are nowhere near as powerful as they had hoped to be.

    This parliamentary question is a desperate shout for attention, nothing more. The government will not be answering it by persecuting skeptics.

    Can’t help but think, however, that the reaction to this by skeptics here and elsewhere is rather more passionately anti-German than the largely anti-skeptical atmosphere in America or Britain warrants. Skeptics in both these countries have fared far worse than in Germany.

  109. Peter Miller says:
    November 11, 2010 at 10:21 am
    “Undoubtedly, there are many in Germany who favour the concept of a Fourth Reich.

    History has shown that stifling dissent appears to be ingrained into their culture.”

    Correct, and the German ruling elite still appear to have a tendency towards the use of ethnic cleansing, if their behaviour to climate change ‘deniers’ is indicative?

    Perhaps these issues atr part of the reason that Britain still bases 21,500 troops in Germany, with the remaining 20,000 deployed elsewhere in the world???

  110. I say – send the deniers to work in the Coal Mines…

    Bwawahahahahahahahhaha….

    Adjusts monicle, twirls mostouche, drowns kitten…

    (First 10:10, now this – the air is thick with desperation on the alarmist front).

    What happens post 2012 – post Kyoto – w/o a successor agreement, – climate bubble collapse.

  111. I have always been fascinated by the time between the wars. One thing that has always struck me was the various groups who ended up as part of the nazi party. Some of these groups were what would be today call greenies (well by me anyways).

  112. RE: Jeremy November 11, 2010 at 8:50 am
    “Well at least this time we can be sure that any future solar-powered panzers or tigers wont work at night very well.”

    We’d be so lucky that these people actually start to practice what they preach. Fly around the world all year giving presentations, import out of season fruit overnight; you can use as much carbon as you want as long as you believe the earth’s climate is highly sensitive to it.

  113. Dan J says:
    November 11, 2010 at 12:29 pm
    “Politics as usual it seems. No need to bring up ugly ghosts from the past. This from a Scandinavian point of view, would like to hear what Germans themselves think. Anyone?”

    Dan, we are in a very dangerous situation. The traditional party of the left, the social democrats, the SPD, is overaged and has bad leadership, approval ratings have crumbled below the value for the Greens. We have a strong communist party, Die Linke, made up of remnants of the old communist party of East Germany, and leftists from the West.

    At the moment it’s 10% for Die Linke, 20 % for SPD and 22% for Greens or somesuch. The Greens are the hip party for the younger generation, the modern Urbanite and all the younger teachers.

    The red core under the green paint of the Greens has never been exposed much here; they are in fact a party whose approach towards market capitalism is “social change” – “Sozialer Wandel”, their words.

    In the past, the Greens were the small partner of the mighty SPD when we had a left of center government.

    Now, the SPD whithers away. We would be at the mercy of watermelons and communists if we get another left of center government. Social Change. The Big Transformation.

    Me?
    Canada, in that case.

  114. Well, don’t expect too much from Mrs. Merkel’s Ph.D.
    She is a true believer of what her Chief Climate Scientist tells her.
    It is Prof. Schellnhuber from PIK, where beside him, hardliners like Rahmstorf are agitating.

  115. @ Dennis Nikols, P. Geol.

    “Remember the tradition of intolerance for difference runs deep, very deep in the culture of all European societies.”

    That is simply not true. Great Britain abolished slavery long before the United States did, and by peaceful democratic means, not by a civil war. After the Napoleonic Wars a considerable part of the Royal Navy was commited to suppressing the trans-Atlantic slave trade. Today inter-racial marriage is far more common in the UK than it is in the United States. Britain also declared war on Germany in 1914 to defend Belgium and again in 1939 in an unsuccesful attempt to defend Poland. We did not wait to be attacked before going to the aid of those countries.

    Denmark abolished slavery before Britain did and during World War II the vast majority of Danish Jews were sheltered from the Nazis by non-Jewish friends and then smuggled in fishing vessels over to safety in Sweden.

    The Germany of today is an infinitely more tolerant and peaceful country than the Germany of the period 1870-1945, even though some political activists there are just as intolerant as their counterparts in Britain, Canada, the United States and lots of other countries.

    Sweeping assertions of intolerance in European countries are unjustified.

  116. ” netdr2 says:
    November 11, 2010 at 9:19 am
    Poptech says:
    November 11, 2010 at 9:09 am
    Dr. Singer’s scientific credentials are impeccable
    *************
    So what ? Does that make him right ?”
    —————————————————–

    No his position on any subject must be evaluated based on the evidence. His resume, while impressive, just means his opinion should be listened to and evaluated ahead of yours and mine as we are less knowledgeable about this subject. It doesn’t mean we give him a pass or apply any less stringent criteria to evaluating his positions.

    PS. Kudos to the person doing the interview above! He can do journalism with good followup questions and base knowledge of various subjects. He is not a monkey with a microphone like most of our media!

  117. I think most here know this, but it bears asserting. While these “greens” are representative of some Germans, they are not representative of Germany nor the majority of Germans. Having spent a good part of my youth there, I found most to very kind and worthy of respect. Some of the undertones of some of the comments here are a bit disquieting. Maybe it is getting caught up in this special day, but……….

    Dirk, were I German, I’d tell you Germany needs their patriots at home.

  118. Matt says:
    November 11, 2010 at 2:29 pm

    Why not read the translation & tell us where Pierre got it wrong? If indeed you are German.

    DaveE.

  119. Dave Springer says:
    November 11, 2010 at 1:13 pm
    “The time of the homogeneous nation-state is over”

    “That’s not the problem. China, Japan, and South Korea are homogenous nation-states and they seem to be doing just fine. The problem with Europe is sloth.”

    China is homogeneous? They don’t even have a single language.

    “The official language of the PRC is “Putonghua”, a literal translation of which is “common speech”. This is known in English as Mandarin Chinese. However, to think that all Chinese people speak it somewhat misrepresents the true picture. According to Chinese government figures, only 53% of the population speak putonghua. Also, Ethnologue lists more than 200 languages in use in China and there are countless local dialects. This can be a problem, not only for the poor foreigners struggling to communicate, but also for the Chinese. It not unusual to see two Chinese struggling to understand each other. ”

    http://www.liuzhou.co.uk/china/language.htm

  120. Incidentally. I have nothing against Germans. My father lived & worked in Germany & spoke fluent German. (Fluent enough to fool a Dutchman anyway.)

    I never learned German as I concentrated on Danish & Italian, both of which I have pretty much forgotten by non-use.

    DaveE.

  121. @ Roy says:
    November 11, 2010 at 3:11 pm

    Perhaps you can help me, I’m thinking of a quote that is paraphrase as this…..”The air in Britain is too clean for a slave, ergo a slave is free the moment he steps on British soil.”

    I can’t find it and don’t remember who said it! And time is short for me, but I think it is appropo for your statement.

  122. It is not true that Germany has not seen this kind of intolerance in 65 years.

    In the 1970s Germany practiced something called Berufsverbot, where communists and other radicals were barred from holding posts in government and academia.

    It appears that silencing and harassing dissenters is a bit of a knee-jerk instinct in Germany.

  123. Have to agree with Dan J and Jim G – just because a few leaders of the German Green Party (who are in opposition, not part of the government) have made fools of themselves over their ignorance of the credibility of Singer and the scientific bankruptcy of the CO2 AGW hypothesis, does not mean that it is acceptible or correct to submit to this crass national stereotyping of all Germans, or their government as jackbooted-eco-facists. We can never forgive or forget what the Nazis did in WW2, but every German I have spoken to has been deeply ashamed of and sorry for the actions of their fore-fathers. Incidentally, I am sure that Angela Merkel is much less gullible with respect to the IPCC’s junk science than David Cameron or Barack Obama. I have sent an email of support to Marie-Luise Dött for daring to question the AGW religion, but I have to say I wish the political discussions on this blog were as enlightened as the scientific can be.

  124. Germany manufactures and exports large quantities of products which are used in fighting the modern mythological dragon of AGW.

    The continuance of manufacturing these products is essential to the future economy of Germany. Angela Merkel is a politician first and foremost, and the economy of Germany will come first by far, let the physics of it be damned. Merkel is fighting for the economic survival of Germany.

  125. Dave Springer says:
    ” The problem with Europe is sloth.”

    Sorry, but that would be wildly inaccurate if you are talking about Germans.

  126. Roy says:
    November 11, 2010 at 3:11 pm
    “The Germany of today is an infinitely more tolerant and peaceful country than the Germany of the period 1870-1945,”

    Remember the radical youth shouting at COP15? Todays young protesters are every bit as intolerant and radical as the fanatics of oldentimes.

    Over the past 5 years, about 700 cars, mostly expensive ones, have been burnt down in Berlin and Hamburg, in the night, smack bang in the middle of the cities. Young leftist radicals. Don’t expect any tolerance from them – they’ll just call you a fascist when you have a Mercedes and that’s sufficient justification for destroying it.

    The decisive difference is that in the first half of the 20th century, Germany had a youth bulge – families had more kids so there was a much higher percentage of unemployed, dissatisfied youth, radical and angry.

    Todays Greens and Communists are too old on average to cause real trouble – but they might well tank the economy once given the opportunity, even Gordon Brown managed that for his economy.

    So when Germany appears peaceful today, it’s largely because it’s old.

  127. @ Chris, Matt,

    … what’s up with these “Klimaleugner” rhetorics ?

    Just disassociate from that bullshit clearly, without any shilly-shally – and there will be no more inappropriate historical reminiscences …

  128. Sam Hall says:
    November 11, 2010 at 3:29 pm

    Ostensibly in the UK we speak a single language too. TV has largely eradicated dialect but not completely.

    I currently live amongst Yakkers, who are different to Mackems & Geordies. I’ve also lived with Scousers & Scots of various persuasions. They all speak differently with different colloquialisms. The only group coming out of this badly are those of the South East who have difficulty with anything broader than Essex.

    My ex-wife incidentally was amazed when she asked me if I could tell where she came from. I told her, Scotland, East coast, North of Edinburgh. She’s from Banff and lived in England for 48 years!

    DaveE.

  129. Essentially, on the surface, only Germans like Germans. However the, wink wink, “green socialists” have put on a stellar propaganda show for decades, pretty much living on the unhindered snowballing effect from the 80’s. But of course then there is logic.

    For all the green power production in Germany, excluding hydro from rivers since the dumb hippies hampered that evil long long ago, is still foobar level compared to nuclear and good ol’ coal.

    Recently Germany adopted a, well, pseudo pro-nuclear stance, for apparently wind and solar isn’t delivering as much as promised for the next to null price as promised, nor, apparently, can’t they keep up with demand.

    If you want to understand how backwards the german climate-socializts really are understand this: a bunch of hippies wanting to down all evil nuclear power plants fully knowing such a result would add a proportionally amount of coal fire power plants in reality.

    Funny how it’s the oposite in the next country over: France. Of course France wouldnät need as much nuclear as it does if it weren’t for the hampered hydro by river power plants.

  130. James Sexton says:
    November 11, 2010 at 3:15 pm
    “Dirk, were I German, I’d tell you Germany needs their patriots at home.”

    Well. The worst i fear is even more taxes, economic slump, a Lost Decade or two. And as the boneheads here go on my nerves anyway, i’m just informing myself about ways out.

    You know, the CIA world factbook says about Germany – slightly smaller than Michigan, or something like that. And that’s what it is. A lot of Germans emigrate to Switzerland, Canada, NZ, Oz, USA (they prefer California, mostly… duh).

    We pay the second highest rate for electrictiy in the World. Shortly behind the Danes. Thanks to renewable energy. We’ll overtake the Danes in two years from now. It’s easy to compute.

    OTOH, if the Social Change comes, i might even prefer to be unable to work and exploit the welfare system… if the socialists make me a good offer. It all depends.

    Meine Ziele sind beweglich.

  131. Anthony I met you at the Heartland climate conference in Maythis year where I was a speaker. It was a great conference, .however we urgently need such a conference in Europe,either the UK orGermany We need all our big names DrsSpencer,Lindzen,Singer, Plimer and Carter from down under plus Lord Monckton. The situation here is much worse than in the US In the UK and Germany the political alarmists are in total control. we should organise a organising committee now.

  132. Why don’t they like Fred singer in Germany?

    Fred Singer held a speech/presentation in the German parliamentary forum discussion on the economic impacts of climate protection held by the FDP Free Democrats, the junior coalition partner of Angela Merkel’s CDU/FDP coalition government as a guest speaker. They must think he is the only climate skeptic in the world.

    http://notrickszone.com/2010/09/20/german-parliamentarian-under-massive-fire-for-skepticism/

  133. DaveE: Pierre did not get the translation wrong but some information regarding the type of query might have been useful – A “Kleine Anfrage” such as this is usually made for tactical reasons, saber-rattling, if you will, mostly to demonstrate to one’s voters that their MPs are truly earning their keep.

    If the Greens had meant business they would have made not a minor but a major query (“Grosse Anfrage”) as this requires the government to answer by thoroughly investigating the matter and most importantly by forcing a parliamentary debate on the issue. The tone and focus of this minor query suggest it is nothing more than an exercise in PR.

    To me this merely indicates that the Green party is thoroughly rattled by what’s been happening over the course of the last year. It almost sounds as if they are looking for reassurance from the government that it has not abandoned the climate change agenda. They are right to be rattled, too, as Merkel has been forced to focus on the state of the economy, quietly leaving aside the ambitious climate change measures. She will sacrifice the green agenda to the interests of the economy, and the greens know it, too.

  134. If I remember right we Australians are not that bad either. CSIRO made a Black list of sceptic scientists some months ago. Don’t forget it. Jorgen O

  135. Once all the GERMANS were WARLIKE and MEAN…

    We taught them a LESSON in 1918 !!!

    They’ve hardly bothered us since then…

    (Appologies to Tom Lehr and “That was the Year that Was”…)

  136. James Sexton

    Are you thinking of Granville Sharp and the famous legal case?

    “It was a clear victory for Somersett, Sharp and the lawyers who acted for Somersett: Mansfield had acknowledge that English law did not allow slavery, and only a new Act of Parliament (“positive law”) could bring it into legality. However, the verdict in the case is often misunderstood to mean the end of slavery in England. It was no such thing: it only dealt with the question of the forcible sending of someone overseas into bondage, that a slave becomes free the moment he sets foot on English territory”.

    http://wapedia.mobi/en/Granville_Sharp

    Tonyb

  137. Chris : “If you a relly considering Fred Singer a relible scientist, and his work empiric I can just commiserate with you. Despite his vita, he is also know for very controverse positions including:
    – denial of existance on a connection between passive smoking and lung cancer
    – denial of existance on a connection of CFC emission and influence on the ozone layer

    I would suggest that (a) it is necessary to distinguish between scientific thinking and advocacy, and (b) Wikipedia is not a reliable source of information [a lot of the negative information about climate skeptics seems to come from there].

    On passive smoking, Fred Singer is reported as saying “When all else fails, there’s always tobacco. I am nonsmoker, belong to an anti-smoking organization (ACSH), and hate cigarette smoke. But this does not affect my science. Expert epidemiologists, including those at the Congressional Research Service, all agree that EPA cooked the data in order to link ‘second-hand’ smoke to lung-cancer deaths.“.

    On the ozone layer, there has been a lot of discussion recently, and it seems that there really might not be much connection between CFC emissions and the ozone layer, and that the influences on the ozone layer are mainly natural.

    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/10/25/new-theory-predicts-the-largest-ozone-hole-over-antarctica-will-occur-this-month/

  138. The greens are the new Nazis. Even Hitler didn’t kill as many. The total ban on DDT is killing a million kids each year due to malaria. Biofuels are causing misery and food riots. Banning dams perpetuates poverty in India. Lack of electricity condemns Africans to poverty and ill health.

    They share the totalitarian need to control every aspect of everyone’s life and all information.

    They were the old Nazis too. The Nazis believed the Volk had a special link to nature, and that the Jews were like rats that lived in the cities.

  139. It is not difficult to understand why there is currently some open dissatisfaction being expressed by some European Parliamentarians about the slow rate of progress with respect to implementing world wide global warming mitigation policies. They have been given or chose to believe only the global warming worst case scenarios over and over again for decades now. The other and more likely worst case scenarios like the possible global cooling for the next 20- 30 years with possible cold winters like the latter part of the 1970’s [which they had only a brief taste during the winters of 2009 and 2010,] are not even on their radar . Their climate scientist, mainstream media and governments seem to have isolated the public from this much more realistic and possible scenario. The arrival of this next extended cooling cycle is not exact or clear as the cooling of the north Atlantic is difficult to predict exactly and the best estimates forecast for the AMO ,PDO and AO all going negative for extended periods is 2015 . The effect of the current low solar cycle is not all that clear yet. PDO is already heading cool. AMO is again dropping but this may be seasonal only. The uncertainty is not whether the cooler cycle is coming but only the exact timing. Once the reality of this latter scenarios sinks in as the weather starts to cool for extended periods, there will be lot of questioning of the climate scientists and governments and how they possibly could have gotten it so wrong. This questioning is already starting to happen in UK, Australia, New Zealand and North America several smaller European nations and including Russia. These so called “out of control Parliamentarians” better be careful. Europeans may be somewhat authoritarian but if they find out that that they have been duped and the cold cycle option was real possibility and the authorities and scientists knew about it back in 2010 and did not warn the public properly, the public will really be angry and rightly so. These Parliamentarians better do their home work now about all the possible climate scenarios [including possible cooling] and not just unprecedented global warming options or face wrath of a very angry European public in the very near future.

  140. “”””” netdr2 says:
    November 11, 2010 at 9:19 am
    Poptech says:
    November 11, 2010 at 9:09 am

    Dr. Singer’s scientific credentials are impeccable
    *************
    So what ? Does that make him right ?

    He is an ideologue

    There are five attributes of ideologues:
    1. Absence of doubt
    2. Intolerance of debate
    3. Appeal to authority
    4. A desire to convince others of the ideological “truth”
    5. A willingness to punish those that don’t concur “””””

    Well that’s an impressive list of characteristics.

    It is quite apaprent how they all apply to Both Al Gore, and Dr James Hansen.

    Please enlghten us with a documented example of each of these characteristics as exhibited by Dr Fred Singer; we’d all like to be alerted to his foibles.

  141. Does Al Gore stand for the US?
    Neither stands the German Green Party for Germany.
    Unfortunately nearly all Parliament Members and the whole government believe in Al Gore’s and Michael Mann’s Global Warming Phantasies – but not all Germans do.
    Pull back Al Gore, Michael Mann, Obama – the German Government will think again.
    Maybe even Chancelor Merkel, the great opportunist; she is the daughter of a red protestant priest who moved from free Germany to Stalin’s Germany to support communism; therefor she was allowed to study, and she got engaged in the communist youth organization FDJ. Then changing sides when power changed sides. She will always follow the path of power. She’s power Angie.

  142. Mr Watts, your post on veterans day was GREAT, AWESOME; SOCIALISM -a more adequate name for it is SADISM- is the evil that you americans fought against. And you won!

    Socialism is a militaristic regime of bullies, a regime of force, a regime of lack of respect for the person rights, free will and property and sadly germans often are socialists/sadists so such things are not surprising from the people that brought us National Socialism.

    Socialism is arrogant, pedantic and intolerant by definition, socialism is about a very few arrogant having extreme power and control over our lives, socialism means not respecting the individual. Socialists main driving force often is SADISM, the vice for controlling our lives, for taking pleasure on punishing us, for having extreme power over us. EXTREME SOCIALISM meant EXTREME MASS MURDER often with extreme sadism, THEFT OF ALL PROPERRTY and, among other things, all kinds of sadistic punishments and prohibitions by a small group of sadistic depraved mass murderers mass robbers that called themselves “government”. Joseph Stalin was the quintaessential sadist, 41 million murdered by his regime, more than the National Socialism 21 million murdered. To that me must add the circa 50 millions dead in combat.

    If some one alleges that I am insulting germans then I tell you that I have german blood in my veins and I am proud of it. I would be proud to have too some jewish blood in my veins but I have none . The sadistic tendencies often found in german people had done ENORMOUS damage to the world and GERMAN SADISM must be fought as your american heroes did in World War II

  143. I understand that Germany has many excellent public facilities for the mass destruction by incendiary means of certain written materials, although they have gone unused for over half a century. Perhaps the practice could be revived in order to prevent anyone being mislead by the publishings of the skeptics, or, as they’re now known, the deniers.

    Those who believe that warming can be explained by solar fluctuations could wear a yellow star to symbolise the link, whilst those who believe anthropogenic global warming will cause many deaths could wear a deaths-head cap-badge.

  144. My previous comment was poorly written, I was exalted and wanted so much to praise Mr Watts for his excellent “Veterans day” post. It is the evil of socialism / sadism that american heroes FOUGHT and DEFEATED

    There are many germans that are socialists, but obviously only a very small fraction of the german population are extreme socialists.

    Germans voted classical liberal Konrad Adenauer as “The Greatest German Ever” so you see they are not as many extreme socialistic germans as one may think by reading my previous poorly written comment.

    But it is obvious that the “greens” and socialists are often driven by the same vice of having more power, control & punishment power over our lives.

  145. Gosh, it’s hardly news that Greens – in any country – say outrageous things. Imagine the national stereotypes (more accurate ones, too) we could make about statements by those on the fringes of the US political system.

    WUWT has some very good, sensible scientific posts. It really harms your credibility – unnecessarily – to make stupid, bigoted statements about Germans being like Nazis.

    A real cheap shot. I hope not too many people read it, they might be put off examining your posts on the climate.

  146. R. de Haan says:
    November 11, 2010 at 11:55 am

    Stop Global Dumbing Now says:
    November 11, 2010 at 11:22 am
    S Basinger says:
    November 11, 2010 at 8:52 am
    ______________________________
    “I don’t think so:”

    Sigh! They spoil everything. A happy sun beaming on a happy ocean, maybe?

  147. @Mike Jonas:
    I agree with your comments about passive smoking, but dispute your characterisation of the nature of recent discussion over CFC emissions and the ozone layer. You reference

    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/10/25/new-theory-predicts-the-largest-ozone-hole-over-antarctica-will-occur-this-month/

    This concerns the type of radiation that may catalyse the reaction and how this may effect calculations of the expected size of the hole. The original model assumed that the reaction was catalysed only by sunlight. The new suggestion under discussion is that ionising radiation (cosmic rays) may also play a role in catalysing the reaction. Hence the rate of reaction would show a dependency on solar weather and the sunspot cycle. This is merely a minor adjustment to the model of ozone depletion taking one more factor into account and enabling a potentially more accurate prediction of the size of the hole each year. It doesn’t overturn the basic theory.

    There was no suggestion that CFCs are not a problem or that the ozone hole is natural. There was no challenge to the theory that the hole is created by ozone undergoing a catalysed reaction with chlorine in the upper atmosphere. Nobody is challenging the belief that this chlorine gets up there almost entirely via manmade CFCs. What people are discussing are factors which may effect the rate of this reaction.

    Your description of this discussion using the words …

    On the ozone layer, there has been a lot of discussion recently, and it seems that there really might not be much connection between CFC emissions and the ozone layer, and that the influences on the ozone layer are mainly natural.

    … is therefore incorrect.

  148. Ian H – you may very well be right, but the CFC emissions theory is getting slightly (and I mean slightly) stretched by events; the ozone hole wasn’t supposed to be hitting new highs. Best that we test theories hard over time, rather than accept them too easily. You say “This is merely a minor adjustment to the model of ozone depletion taking one more factor into account and enabling a potentially more accurate prediction of the size of the hole each year. It doesn’t overturn the basic theory.“. Again, you may well be right, but quantification would be appreciated.

  149. dp says:
    November 11, 2010 at 9:24 am
    Zero chance I’ll be buying that BMW motorcycle, now.

    At the risk of going off topic, I can recommend motot guzzi. :D The Italians haven’t invaded europe for ages…

    But don’t blame all Germans for the silliness of a few.

  150. a very angry European public in the very near future.

    George E. Smith says:
    November 11, 2010 at 5:36 pm
    “”””” netdr2 says:
    November 11, 2010 at 9:19 am
    Poptech says:
    November 11, 2010 at 9:09 am

    George, he was very confused and did apologize for his comment later in the thread.

  151. George E. Smith says:
    November 11, 2010 at 5:36 pm
    George netdr2 apologized way up above somewhere.

  152. If you a relly considering Fred Singer a relible scientist, and his work empiric I can just commiserate with you.
    Despite his vita, he is also know for very controverse positions including:

    – denial of existance on a connection between passive smoking and lung cancer

    Singer was a guest author here (on another topic) within the past two months and explained this at length. (I searched for his thread but couldn’t find it under his name.) Basically what he said was that the EPA had fudged and fiddled in order to get the strength of their finding up to the “significant” level. I.e., up to 95%, when it was only in fact 90% or somewhere in the 80s. So he wasn’t exactly “denying” the link, but only questioning our level of certainty about it, and pointing to weaknesses in the studies that purport to show that certainty. He also stated (I think) that he believed in that connection.

    I have the impression that his position on the ozone hole is similar, but more skeptical: that it’s been oversold, and moreover is doubtful.

    He denied in that guest post that he’d received money from an oil company. (My guess, again based on zero research, is that he was funded by a libertarian think tank that received funding from Exxon, and that his critics have cut out the middleman in order to blacken him.)

    If all this is so, or nearly so, he’s been essentially smeared by his critics.

  153. Mike Jonas says:
    November 11, 2010 at 5:11 pm

    Chris : “If you a relly considering Fred Singer a relible scientist, and his work empiric I can just commiserate with you. Despite his vita, he is also know for very controverse positions including:
    – denial of existance on a connection between passive smoking and lung cancer
    – denial of existance on a connection of CFC emission and influence on the ozone layer”

    I would suggest that (a) it is necessary to distinguish between scientific thinking and advocacy, and (b) Wikipedia is not a reliable source of information [a lot of the negative information about climate skeptics seems to come from there].

    On passive smoking, Fred Singer is reported as saying “When all else fails, there’s always tobacco. I am nonsmoker, belong to an anti-smoking organization (ACSH), and hate cigarette smoke. But this does not affect my science. Expert epidemiologists, including those at the Congressional Research Service, all agree that EPA cooked the data in order to link ‘second-hand’ smoke to lung-cancer deaths.“.”

    Mike,
    Fred Singer was paid by the tobacco industry to counter the scientific data on the harmful effects of second hand smoke. This is public knowledge. It is immaterial whether he smokes or not. His claims in this area are suspect.
    Does Singer also dispute the publication by the surgeon general.?

    “The United States Surgeon General in 2006 published a document entitled The Health Consequences of Involuntary Exposure to Tobacco Smoke: A Report of the Surgeon General, outlining the adverse health effects of exposure. Some people think that these risks aren’t that important. But Crystal’s study may lead people to now believe that any exposure – no matter how infrequent, no matter how limited – is bad for one’s health.”

    Mike says:

    “On the ozone layer, there has been a lot of discussion recently, and it seems that there really might not be much connection between CFC emissions and the ozone layer, and that the influences on the ozone layer are mainly natural.
    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/10/25/new-theory-predicts-the-largest-ozone-hole-over-antarctica-will-occur-this-month/

    The fact that intense and rare cosmic rays effect the ozone does not show that CFC’s have no effect. This argument is a logical fallacy. The Montreal Protocol which banned CFC’s did not have any economic impact, and the decline in minimum Ozone levels over Antarctica seems to have stopped.

    As far as I know, Singer hasn’t published any peer reviewed articles on ozone depletion or anything else of significance since 1972.

    The criticism of Singer by the German Green party is fully justified by the facts in the public record.

  154. I have had one post totally snipped, and another post eliminated without a trace.
    These posts pointed out that Singer has no peer reviewed publications and was paid by oil and cigarette industry money to say what he is saying. If the dollars came through front organizations, which were set up to do the work of casting doubt on the peer reviewed science, it doesn’t make him any less of a shill.

    [REPLY – I repeat: Sometimes posts wind up in the spam filter. There is no “post awaiting moderation” message. It appears to have vanished. It hasn’t. We go through the spam filters periodically and retrieve valid posts. Are we clear on this now? We do snip some posts. We do so less than any AGW site you will ever encounter. I have had posts snipped. Please accept the judgment of the moderators. ~ Evan]

  155. chris says: “If you a relly considering Fred Singer a relible scientist, and his work empiric I can just commiserate with you.
    Despite his vita, he is also know for very controverse positions including:

    – denial of existance on a connection between passive smoking and lung cancer”

    Multicenter Case–Control Study of Exposure to
    Environmental Tobacco Smoke and Lung Cancer
    in Europe

    Conclusions: Our results indicate no association
    between childhood exposure to ETS and lung cancer risk.
    We did find weak evidence of a dose–response relationship
    between risk of lung cancer and exposure to spousal and
    workplace ETS. There was no detectable risk after cessation
    of exposure. [J Natl Cancer Inst 1998;90:1440–50]

  156. eadler says: November 11, 2010 at 10:33 pm
    “……..Singer has no peer reviewed publications……”

    Why do you (and your camp) weigh so heavily on peer-reviewed publications?
    Peer review is often far from being perfect. Often relies on the whimsicality of reviewer(s).
    For instance, of roughly 150 peer-reviewed papers I’ve published so far (mostly in English, some in French and German) in the field of photosynthesis research, only a handful will remain of some (small) value into the future.

    If you are in academia, Mr. (?) eadler, you should be well aware of such an actuality.

  157. ::facepalm:: Godwin’s Law.

    If it is unclear to you how asking someone to publicly state their opinion is different from sending said person to a death camp and throwing said’s children alive into a furnace (and repeating that scenario a few million times), then you are not equipped to have an adult conversation. Draw analogies to the Nazis (outside of an actual genocide) and you show yourself to be intellectually incapable of having a meaningful conversation. Sorry, it’s just the way it is.

    Chris

  158. eadler says:
    November 11, 2010 at 9:40 pm

    The criticism of Singer by the German Green party is fully justified by the facts in the public record.

    Criticism? please replace with the word ‘the denier Singer’ as its appears you agree with there statements. I would also suggest you actually read more posts on Antony’s site as it will help in your understanding of why people here are skeptical about AGW.

    Or you could just keep attacking people because they have a different view.

  159. eadler says: “Mike,
    Fred Singer was paid by the tobacco industry to counter the scientific data on the harmful effects of second hand smoke. This is public knowledge. It is immaterial whether he smokes or not. His claims in this area are suspect.
    Does Singer also dispute the publication by the surgeon general.? “

    You say “This is public knowledge” yet you offer no substantiation. You say “His claims in this area are suspect”, yet, again, you offer no documentation for your accusations. You say “Singer was paid by the tobacco industry” and again you offer nothing that would show us that this is so. All we have is your word. You can come on here and say anything you want at any time but that doesn’t make it true.

    I’m curious. Do you drive a car? Have you ever used gasoline to fill you car’s tank? Do you use deodorant? Do you drink soda? Do you own a pair of athletic shoes? Do you own a television? A computer? An electric or handheld toothbrush? The list could go on, but if you have ever used any of these products, then you are guilty of supporting big oil and I think I’ll not believe anything you say anymore because you willingly, of your own free will use their products, and must be in their pocket.

    You also say: As far as I know Singer hasn’t published any peer reviewed articles on ozone depletion or anything else of significance since 1972.” So you’re not really sure, right? He might have, but if he did, you don’t know about it, right? In the last, let’s see- 2010 minus 1972 is (I have to open up my calculator here) 38 years!- Singer has not published one peer reviewed article on ozone depletion or anything else that is significant. Jeez! For a guy that so many people, including many scientists, hold in high regard, he sure is a slouch!
    So I guess when you say “The criticism of Singer by the German Green party is fully justified by the facts in the public record.”, you know for sure that the German greens are “fully justified” because you are familiar with “the facts in the public record”. Right? Please, fill us in on some of those facts. Personally, I don’t think you can.

    Full disclosure: I have read a couple of Mr. Singer’s books and several of his articles. I also think AGW is a hoax and we are more likely to see an ice age sooner than a blast furnace. Mr. Watts doesn’t like his site used for hurling personal insults, which I admire, so I will zip.

  160. damian says:
    November 11, 2010 at 8:34 pm

    dp says:
    November 11, 2010 at 9:24 am
    Zero chance I’ll be buying that BMW motorcycle, now.

    At the risk of going off topic, I can recommend moto guzzi. :D The Italians haven’t invaded europe for ages…

    Seconded. I have a Guzzi T3 and a Quota, great motorcycles. SO much more style and panache than the blocky, square BMW boxer. Designer Leno Tonti once told a journalist who complained how noisy the Moto Guzzi Le Mans was:
    “Eez notta noise; Eez a music!

    But don’t blame all Germans for the silliness of a few.

    My Grandfather fought in both world wars, and even he said he liked most ordinary German people. He did have a bee in his bonnet about the Scots though for some unexplained reason. I never got to the bottom of that, and he took his bigotry to his grave with him.

  161. As far as I know, Singer hasn’t published any peer reviewed articles on ozone depletion or anything else of significance since 1972.

    Would it not make sense to check these things out before stating misinformation?

    A comparison of tropical temperature trends with model predictions
    (International Journal of Climatology, Volume 28, Issue 13, pp. 1693-1701, December 2007)
    – David H. Douglass, John R. Christy, Benjamin D. Pearson, S. Fred Singer

    Altitude dependence of atmospheric temperature trends: Climate models versus observation
    (Geophysical Research Letters, Volume 31, Issue 13, July 2004)
    – David H. Douglass, Benjamin D. Pearson, S. Fred Singer

    Disparity of tropospheric and surface temperature trends: New evidence
    (Geophysical Research Letters, Volume 31, Issue 13, July 2004)
    – David H. Douglass, Benjamin D. Pearson, S. Fred Singer, Paul C. Knappenberger, Patrick J. Michaels

    Human Contribution to Climate Change Remains Questionable
    (Eos, Transactions American Geophysical Union, Volume 80, Issue 16, pp. 183-183, April 1999)
    S. Fred Singer

    Statistical analysis does not support a human influence on climate
    (Energy & Environment, Volume 13, Number 3, pp. 329-331, July 2002)
    S. Fred Singer

  162. Sorry the tone of this article is ridiculous. Americans tend to associate any news from Germany with naziism as an excuse for fingerpointing, especially those who have no first hand experience in Germany. Reality check please. American right wing zealots are much, much less enlightened than even the most stubborn German “Green”. Beam in one’s own eye etc. …

    What actually happened was this: The Green party in the German parliament (i.e. not the government) has tabled a parliamentary question about the views of the government on “climate skepticism”. So far there is no answer yet.

    It’s true that the text of the question wants to brand “denialism” as not worth discussing and pressures the government into reatreating funding. Yes and that is tell tale of the Greens’ attitude and agenda.

    I might come round to posting a translation in a later post if there’s any interest.

  163. @ James Sexton

    Lord Mansfield was the judge at the trial in 1772 of James Somersett, a slave who had come to England with his “owner,” a customs officer from Boston, Massachusetts. Somersett escaped and was recaptured but was freed by the judge. His verdict immediately resulted in slavery becoming illegal in Britain but it remained legal in the colonies until Wilberforce and his allies finally managed to get an act through parliament in 1807 making it illegal throughout the British Empire.

    Lord Mansfield is often quoted as saying “the air of England is too pure for a slave to breathe” but according to the web page below it was actually the lawyer defending James Somersett, the escaped slave, who said those words. I didn’t know that. I had always assumed it was the judge.

    Somersett’s Case

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somersett%27s_Case

  164. A number of people have responded to my defence of Germany by pointing out bad cases of German intolerance since World War II. They have a point and they could have added to the examples by mentioning the Baader-Meinhof Gang, a terrorist movement also known as the Red Army Faction, that came into existance in 1970 and survived in some form until the 1990s.

    However a German could respond by pointing to the activities of the IRA and its “Protestant” counterparts in Britain. Furthermore many of the people behind the Al-Qaeda inspired bomb explosions on trains and a bus in London three years ago were born in the UK although their parents were immigrants.

    A German could also point to McCarthyism in the United States in the 1950s, the murders of Civil Rights workers by racists in the 1960s, and the activities of the Weatherman and the Unabomber, the Oaklahoma City bombing, government-approved use of waterboarding etc.

    The point I’m making is not to try and prove that one nation is better or worse than another but to show that postwar Germany is not unique.

    The freedom of speech of climate sceptics in Germany is important and may need defending but those of us who live in other countries should not be complacent. It would not be to difficult for me to list cases (not involving the climate) where freedom of speech has been under threat in Britain in recent years and I would not be surprised if people could also find examples in other nations.

  165. please correct the headline to – German Green Politicians….
    Definetly NOT all Germans nor all German politicians ( ~11% green) the headline is unfair

  166. @commieBob

    The Germans, in their zeal to stomp out anything Nazi, have passed laws that essentially make it illegal to deny the holocaust. In Germany, deniers are therefore illegal.

    No. The “Allied Control Council”, the joint committe of the US, UK, French ans Soviet authorities controlling post war Germany, outlawed the nazi party and any public endorsement of their policies. The Federal Republic of Germany merely left those laws in place.

  167. Anthony, thanks for listening.. a little criticism though, sometimes it hard to see where your commentary ends and where quotations start (or end for that matter.) I work in a government office and produce documents that are distributed on a daily basis.. the formatting and typesetting is clear, cogent and understandable for anybody reading….

    I can’t say the same thing for your blog posts… often the quotations are silently slipped in or the greater article is just spliced into the article with incredible sloppiness that can often lead the reader into wondering when the article ends and your commentary begins again!

    Sometimes it can be very confusing what is actually going on in these blog posts… think about the first time reader of your blog. Would a better presentation of the facts be preferrable for them?

    REPLY: try reading sober – Anthony

  168. @Pull My Finger

    Any German folk on the list please let me know if my definition of these groups is unfair.

    Your definition of these groups is unfair.

    “The Left” – Basically Communists – 11.1%

    “The Left” is half ex-East German communist, half dissenting West German social democrats. I voted for them last time round because they are the only mainstream party opposed to welfare cuts, which I am and which is currently the most pressing political issue in my view. At the same time I’m as anti-communist as you can get. I’m not the only one fitting that description.

    “the Greens” 9.2%

    The Greens are not “left” by any meaningful standard. They are middle class. The “leftie” image they once had is long over, their politics certainly are not “leftie”. Take for example their views on welfare and economy, there they mostly are what we call in Europe “neo liberal”, which I think translates best to reaganite/monetaristic in American terms (though milder). All mainstream parties in Germany except “The Left” are in the same boat though.

    So nealry 1/4 Germans can be considered to hold extremist political views

    Ex falso quodlibet

  169. I have to say that after years of thoroughly enjoying the comments on WUWT, this is the first time I am repulsed by a lot of the comments on this thread.

    This knee-jerk reaction by a lot of commenters of insulting the complete German people (and in some instances/comments the European people) by talking about yellow stars, nazi’s, world wars and socialism in relation to this green-party stupidity is very sad!
    Maybe the Yanks with the big mouth should first get rid of Michael Mann, James Hansen, Al Gore, Gavin Schmidt, Obama and all those other Americans who stood at the birth of the CAGW scare!
    Do not misunderstand, my wife and daughter are US (born-)citizens, I love the USA and its people and have had great respect for the level of intelligence shining from most comments on this site, but a lot of people here are now doing EXACTLY the same intolerant BS that we here always accuse the warmists of doing! Please stop.

  170. I am quite disturbed by the number of quite nasty and xenophobic comments that are appearing on this thread.
    While it is often difficult to maintain a proper balance in one’s attitude to the events of the world and to the many wrongs and injustices perpetrated by man against man, an ignorance of history and pride in one’s own culture often leads the ignorant and unthinking to make jingoistic and offensive comments which are singularly unproductive.
    My reading of history tells me that few nations come out of either World War One or Two smelling of roses, and tarring all German people with the Nazi brush and classifying all of the Allied combatants as pure and heroic is as woefully ignorant and as incorrect as the claims by some Americans that ‘they won both both world wars’.
    Can I suggest that a knowledge of the history of the ‘modern’ era is essential for balance. No one race has a patent on cruelty or ignorance, but ignorance can be remedied. Democracy and freedom of the individual are relatively new concepts in the history of Mankind; I suspect they are both fragile and quite easily lost if we return to the ignorant state of unthinking tribalism. Reading other blogs, such as the Guardian’s CiF, and viewing the incredible ‘Red Button’ video produced by the 1010 organisation gives an indication of the brutal, bloodthirsty and tribal inclinations of many Green activists and apologists. Let’s not go there.

  171. The grant ‘carrots’ haven’t worked. The threat ‘sticks’ won’t either. What’s the next move? I see ‘mandatory’ looming.

  172. Hello together,

    being a German writer and not a climate scientist, I greatly appreciate how many sympathy I read in the article and comments with us Germans who disagree with the real climate change deniers, the Greens (die Grünen) and some others. The matter indeed is fearful, and I do hope it really is the last battle (Will they surrender in May?) There might be a severe winter in stall for us – I wonder whether the discussion then comes round the corner.
    Again – many thanks to all commentators here in favor of freedom of speech and thinking! (Mistakes in English please excuse!)

    Chris Frey

  173. I’m surprised that no-one called for Fred Singer to sue for defamation. As someone has already pointed out “Denial” aka “Holocaust Denial” is a federal crime in Germany. It would be straightforward to claim that Dr Singer is being accused of a crime.

  174. THe march of history…
    What is that noise?
    Who are the hooded hordes
    Emerging from the castle walls,
    Their incantations
    Resounding through the land?

  175. Perhaps we should be supporting those who support real science in Germany as opposed to those who support dogma? There are a few dogmatic folk slipping into cultural sterotypes here by the looks of it.

  176. My reading of history tells me that few nations come out of either World War One or Two smelling of roses, and tarring all German people with the Nazi brush and classifying all of the Allied combatants as pure and heroic is as woefully ignorant and as incorrect as the claims by some Americans that ‘they won both both world wars’.

    I completely agree. However the loading up of rhetoric from the Third Reich appears to be coming from the worst possible direction – Germany itself.

  177. anorak2, I just read the Left’s platform and they are definately teetering on the edge of economic communism and Green authoritarianism. Government control of industry and wages, and while they stress “individual freedoms” in their platform statement their intentions would fully sublimate individual freedoms to their extremest environmental and social/economic controls. There are all the classical buzz words and catch phrases of the far-left. They do not strike me as your run of the mill, European, Social Democrats.
    The Left in English

    http://die-linke.de/fileadmin/download/international/programmatic_points.pdf

    The Greens may not be traditional left, but they are extremest and willing to promote the health of the environment over the health and welfare of the individual. And yes, for those that were wondering their are “Grune Jungen”. Enjoy the imagery at the site.

    http://www.gruene-jugend.de/

    Greens Platform in English

    http://www.gruene-partei.de/cms/files/dokbin/145/145643.party_program_and_principles.pdf

    And to the person who thought mentioning Nazis was jumping to conclusions, when small but growing, influential, and bellicose German political parties start tossing about the words Climate Liars and branding, Nazis do tend to pop to mind. Sorry if I can’t help myself.

  178. American right wing zealots are much, much less enlightened than even the most stubborn German “Green”.

    Really? That is why the American right-wing better understands economics and energy policy?

    The Greens are not “left” by any meaningful standard. They are middle class. The “leftie” image they once had is long over, their politics certainly are not “leftie”. Take for example their views on welfare and economy, there they mostly are what we call in Europe “neo liberal”, which I think translates best to reaganite/monetaristic in American terms (though milder). All mainstream parties in Germany except “The Left” are in the same boat though.

    Is this a joke? Please tell me which economic policies they support that has anything remotely to do with Reaganomics, Monetarism or Neo-liberal economics.

    “The Left” is half ex-East German communist, half dissenting West German social democrats. I voted for them last time round because they are the only mainstream party opposed to welfare cuts, which I am and which is currently the most pressing political issue in my view. At the same time I’m as anti-communist as you can get.

    Wow, you have effectively discredited yourself on economic policy.

    I recommend reading,

    Eigentümlich Frei

  179. Anyway, at the risk of rapid firing posts, I don’t mean to offened or tar Germans with an overly broad brush, as I noted way up high, Adenaurs, Kohls, Merkels, and Schmidts have certainly steered Germany on a positive, if occasionally veering, post-war path, but the extremests in Germany seem to be more vocal and determined that in the rest of west europe, US/Canada. I just think that if a powerful Green government is going to emerge, Germany is the prime candidate due to the party’s growth, history, and intersecting platform with other parties (of course that’s what Lenin said about Communism in Germany as I recall). The Greens do not have to win a plurality to have a powerful influence on governemnt. And of course Germany is the premier power in Europe and will have a huge impact on the long term path of the EU.

  180. Wijnand,

    This knee-jerk reaction by a lot of commenters of insulting the complete German people (and in some instances/comments the European people) by talking about yellow stars, nazi’s, world wars and socialism in relation to this green-party stupidity is very sad!

    Don’t take the few extremist comments posted here as a representation of the feelings of all the commenters here. By doing so you are guilty of the same crime you are accusing us of.

    Maybe the Yanks with the big mouth should first get rid of Michael Mann, James Hansen, Al Gore, Gavin Schmidt, Obama and all those other Americans who stood at the birth of the CAGW scare!

    We would love nothing more then to see them all officially (and rightfully so) discredited in the realm of public opinion.

    It is fair to say the anger here should be directed at the German Green Party and not the country or German people as a whole.

    On a different note I am surprised by the number of German commentators here.

  181. THIS IS FALSE

    “The seeds of tyranny appear to be taking hold again in the German government at least when it comes to climate change issues. – Anthony”

    The Greens SENT a letter to the GOVERNMENT as the text CLEARLY shows. The links and text of the article CLEARLY state only the Green politicians (not in Government) have taken this action…

    Lubos Motl link, to quote:

    “A letter not too tastefully titled “Deniers of climate change in the coalition government”

    “signed by the whole Parliamentary faction of the Greater Green Party was SENT to the government one week ago.”

    The GREEN politicians writing this letter SENT it to the government.(the Greens may have a major role to lay should the existing coalition fail)

    REPLY: Its an opinion, but my opinion is not false, it is in fact my opinion. And with a percentage of politicians (the green ones) taking this up, the seeds in fact have been planted. You are welcome to disagree with the opinion. – Anthony

  182. They want to pick and choose what is believed. And worse they want to enforce it.
    I am no expert but it looks like a recipe for disaster and should not be allowed.

    And its not just happening in Germany.

  183. Terri Jackson says:
    November 11, 2010 at 4:13 pm
    Anthony I met you at the Heartland climate conference in Maythis year where I was a speaker. It was a great conference, .however we urgently need such a conference in Europe,either the UK orGermany We need all our big names DrsSpencer,Lindzen,Singer, Plimer and Carter from down under plus Lord Monckton. The situation here is much worse than in the US In the UK and Germany the political alarmists are in total control. we should organise a organising committee now.

    Dr. Singer will be speaking at the forthcoming yearly international conference on climate issues in Berlin, Germany, on December 3 and 4, 2010, along with Dr. Svensmark and Lord Mockton and others. Obviously he has been in Germany before, knows it and, unlike many bloggers in this thread, does not seem to have a major problem with modern Germany. The Berlin conference this year will be the third event in a row, after Brussels and the UK this fall. Why does not anybody know about it?

  184. American right wing zealots are much, much less enlightened than even the most stubborn German “Green”.

    Really? That is why the American right-wing better understands economics and energy policy?

    I don’t think they do. Ideologies are obstacles to clear understanding of what’s going on. It doesn’t particularly matter what ideology, none helps.

    The Greens are not “left” by any meaningful standard. They are middle class. The “leftie” image they once had is long over, their politics certainly are not “leftie”. Take for example their views on welfare and economy, there they mostly are what we call in Europe “neo liberal”, which I think translates best to reaganite/monetaristic in American terms (though milder). All mainstream parties in Germany except “The Left” are in the same boat though.

    Is this a joke?

    I know it doesn’t fit the stereotypes many people hold, but the stereotypes are decades old and need an update. The West German greens came from the left wing movement of the 1970s and they had socialists and anarchists in their ranks then, that much is true. The East German portion of the Greens came from the freedom movements that brought down the Berlin wall btw, but their influence on the party is minor. Anyway, today they are just mainstream middle class. You have to see beyond stereotypes and look at what they actually say and do.

    Please tell me which economic policies they support that has anything remotely to do with Reaganomics, Monetarism or Neo-liberal economics.

    A watered down European version of course, but they do. They are broadly speaking pro-capitalism, pro free-enterprice, pro deregulation and privatisation of public services, pro welfare cuts, pro tax cuts for companies and high incomes. They have done all these things when they were in government. They did not implement any socialist policies at all, not even token social democrat ones. And they’re not advocating any, not even in speech

    Wow, you have effectively discredited yourself on economic policy.

    You’re not in a position to pass such a judgement. :)

  185. tonyb & Roy

    Exactly! Thanks guys, the full quote as I learned it,

    “The air of England is too pure for a slave to breathe, and so everyone who breathes it becomes free. Everyone who comes to this island is entitled to the protection of English law, whatever oppression he may have suffered and whatever may be the colour of his skin.” – William Murray, First Earl of Mansfield

  186. Poptech says:
    November 12, 2010 at 7:26 am

    “On a different note I am surprised by the number of German commentators here.”
    ========================================================

    Yeh, many more readers than commentators, usually, but when one’s homeland is mentioned it is expected to see a reaction.

  187. The standards of civility and rational discussion espoused by wuwt have been thrown to the winds here. How does a political flurry by a German opposition fringe group translate into here-we-go-again WWI and WWII? What’s with all the ‘jokes’ about concentration camps?

    What I find so astonishing about this is that American political debate is very robust, including a lot of untrue and absurd personal vilification, on both sides. So, if some fringe politicians in Germany say something stupid, it’s a sign of the revival of the Third Reich? That is accepted uncritically?

    No wonder the US finds itself alone on many issues, if that is the attitude of its citizens. I am a supporter of wuwt, but demonising people because they are German is about as anti-scientific as you can get.

    There are plenty of people in the US, and other countries, who espouse similar attitudes. Promoting this kind of thing is going to undermine your supposed belief in fairness and objectivity, not to mention civility.

    We had Remembrance Day here on 11/11. It was taken seriously. Do not use the bodies of dead soldiers to run a political/racial line about past wars that have nothing to do with what wuwt is about.

  188. anorak2, I have to respectfully disagree with your representation of the Green party. While traditional Left – Right is pretty useless these days, the scale of Authoritarian – Libertarian is not. The Greens are firmly Authoritarian. While they pay lip service to democracy and individual freedoms their platform is pretty obviously the opposite.

    http://www.gruene-partei.de/cms/files/dokbin/145/145643.party_program_and_principles.pdf

    And yes, there are “Gruene Jungend”. Quite radical as well.

    http://www.gruene-jugend.de/

    And as to the Left, if they were your traditional Cradle to Grave Social Democrats, why do they exist? And why are they called The Left? They are left of the SDP and are bordering on Marxist in platform, at least to my eyes. Again, they pay initial lip service to idividual freedom but paragraph by paragraph state the opposite.

    http://die-linke.de/fileadmin/download/international/programmatic_points.pdf

  189. @Pull My Finger

    anorak2, I just read the Left’s platform and they are definately teetering on the edge of economic communism and Green authoritarianism. Government control of industry and wages, and while they stress “individual freedoms” in their platform statement their intentions would fully sublimate individual freedoms to their extremest environmental and social/economic controls. There are all the classical buzz words and catch phrases of the far-left.

    I never denied they are socialists. They are. But you said they were communists, which they’re not. Many mainstream parties in Europe are token socialists, even many who’ve formed governments in the past decades. Nothing unusual about it. It didn’t turn Western Europe into a communist dictatorship. Some attempted to nationalise selected industries in the past with varying success, nothing spectacular. None of that is happening now or is likely to in the foreseeable future, it is so against the current climate.

    They do not strike me as your run of the mill, European, Social Democrats.

    Effectively they’re similar to the Social Democrats as they were 40 years ago, which explains their success in what used to be West Germany.

    About the climate thing, yes “The Left” have some green and “climate” agendas, but you have to realise that all parties in Germany have that. There is currently none who are openly opposed to “climate change politics”, and that is really the worrying part. “The Left” do not emphasize that issue much though.

    The Greens may not be traditional left, but they are extremest and willing to promote the health of the environment over the health and welfare of the individual.

    Yes. But that is not “left wing” in my book. Classical marxism strives for more wealth to the average worker (how good they’re at achieving that is a separate issue). The Greens OTOH preach that consumerism is “bad”, i.e. effectively the opposite. Furthermore all parties in Germany worry about “climate change”, merely at varying degrees. You see we live in an age where the “green” ideology is not contained in a single party, it’s everywhere. In Germany we do not have a mainstream opposition to it.

  190. I’m sorry if I have offended anyone…

    “That the seeds are taking hold in Germany,’ that is a perfectly valid opinion….I would agree with that statement myself, and I am concerned by it. The greens have a strong voice in Germany.

    we are perhaps talking at cross purposes, and maybe I’m being pedantic.
    I was just pointing out, that you said in the Government. (not Germany)

    When in fact the Green were writing to the Government (not part of it)
    and trying to put pressure on the Government.

    sorry if I’m too pedantic on this.

  191. The German Greens were founded mainly by Marxists and Maoists as Fischer, Trittin, Bahro, Dutschke etc. As their green fanatism grew, Marxism faded, but left positions are still upheld.
    They are against free markets in principle, they want to tax everything twice, they want to transfer much more money to the welfare system, they believe that the state has to regulate everything – they just are a New Left party coloured green and eager to dominate citizens. They would welcome a Tyranny for the Good of the World.
    Many members are all kinds of civil servants, teachers especially, about 80% of the teachers are green or red. But GREEN is the fashion with many academics, journalists included.
    The green influence is not only strong on the government parties, which have taken up green programmes, it is very strong in the European Union, too.

  192. As C. S. Lewis observed:
    ”Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.*
    * C. S. Lewis, ‘The Humanitarian Theory of Punishment’, in ‘God in the Dock: Essays on Theology and Ethics’, by C. S. Lewis, edited by Walter Hooper.

  193. I am VP of EIKE (European Institute for Climate & Energy http://www.eike-klima-energie.eu/) which was named in that scandalous inquiry of the greens in their inquiry to german government. I am sure it is a wonderful opportunity to demask the greens and their supporters in all parties.

    I am also proud to be a personal friend of Fred Singer and helped via our institute to organize a couple of events – from which some led to the inquiry named. We have therefore prepared a counter-statement to this inquiry, telling the government the truth supported by facts about Fred, us and climate, and send it to the Ministers who are in charge of responding.
    Mid of next week we will publish it on our website (http://www.eike-klima-energie.eu/) and make it public. Pierre Gosselin is so kind to translate it. I would be pleased if you Anthony can post it here too, as well as Marc Morano.

    I am sure the vast majority of my countrymen are not pleased by what the greens are going to do. The problem is the same as everywhere else, people have neither enough time, nor education to find out that the whole climate issue is a make belief to bring people in good faith to pay immense sums for renewables and other nonsense. As soon as this collapses, the advocates will further try to make people belief about soon shortcomings in oil and gas supplies. What we already see here in germany. But also this will collapse when people find out that every Dollar spend on this is just wasted, but make few people very rich but all of us poor.

    In order to support this real view we are now organizing the 3rd. International Climate & Energy Conference in Berlin at 3. & 4th of dec. Readers are invited to join. (Details here: http://www.eike-klima-energie.eu/news-anzeige/iii-internationale-klima-energiekonferenz-in-berlin-3-4-dezember-2010-findet-in-berlin-die-iii-internationale-klima-und-energiekonferenz-statt/, please scroll down to see all details in english, all speakers will be translated simultaneously into english or german, applications here: http://www.eike-klima-energie.eu/registration-3rd-international-conference-on-energy-and-climate-berlin-2010/) with about 20 international known top speakers.

    Visitors from abroad are very welcome. And Berlin – in contrry to London and Paris is still rather cheap.

  194. anorak2

    “Middle class” is not a political ideology. You have failed to demonstrate how “The Greens” support Reaganomics, Monetarism or Neo-liberal economics. Can you show me their position on economic issues?

    When they represent only 10% of the governing body how can they do anything but compromise on certain issues?

  195. @H. Wilde says:
    “The situation here ( In Germany) is much worse than in the US. In the UK and Germany the political alarmists are in total control. we should organise a organising committee now.”

    Truly spoken: Media is totally controlled by the Oekofaschists. The average German does know nothing about the discussion going on on sites like this one. They are belivers in their government like they were 70 years ago! Nothing has changed. Sad to say, especially when you are German.
    EU plans to spend 1 Billion Euros on renewables and power lines to transfer energie from solar farms in the Sahara and wind farms in the northern sea. Money taken from the people by frightening them with the CO2 lie. Siemens reported record earnings and plans to make 50% of its business with “green technology”.
    But German companies are used to make good business with faschist goverments…

    Will the USA be able to fix it again???

  196. @poptech, 07:26h
    To my:
    “This knee-jerk reaction by a lot of commenters of insulting the complete German people (and in some instances/comments the European people) by talking about yellow stars, nazi’s, world wars and socialism in relation to this green-party stupidity is very sad!”

    You say:
    “Don’t take the few extremist comments posted here as a representation of the feelings of all the commenters here. By doing so you are guilty of the same crime you are accusing us of.”
    ——-
    I certainly did *not* put a label on “all the commenters here”, I was very carefull to say “a lot of commenters”. I absolutely agree with you that the general tone and intelligence of the comments here is of a high level, a breath of fresh air compared to some other blogs.
    I just feel that a lot of – not all – comments on this thread are not of that same level, and I stated my objection to that.

    Kind regards,
    Wijnand

  197. anorak2, sorry for the double post, I didn’t see the one you responded to show up on the board and figured it was lost in the ether. So I reposted a shorter version.

  198. How is it that all of these non-scientists (politicians) who are easily convinced by foolish ideas are in charge of science suddenly? I find it quite depressing that all of the real science thinkers that I know understand the shoddy guesswork involved in AGW dogma, but the ones in control of the science at the moment have no scientific prowess whatsoever.

  199. You have failed to demonstrate how “The Greens” support Reaganomics, Monetarism or Neo-liberal economics. Can you show me their position on economic issues?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hartz_concept

    This reform of the welfare system brought harsh cuts and much stricter control for the unemployed compared to the previous, comparatively generous unemployment benefit system which had been in place for decades. The “Hartz concept” was phased in between 2001 and 2005. The Greens voted for it, without their votes it would probably not have passed the house.

    When they represent only 10% of the governing body how can they do anything but compromise on certain issues?

    They can always vote “no” yet chose not to. Besides they apparently weren’t just compromising, they were openly in support. At the time I had colleague who was member of the Greens. He cared about proper waste separation at our office, but not about the welfare cuts. When I confronted him one time, he openly supported it. And I think that is true for most of their supporters.

    Google “Oswald Metzger”, a prominent spokesman for the Green party at the time they were in government. Unfortunately I can’t find any English language statements by him, but his homepage is here:

    http://www.oswald-metzger.de/

    Maybe Google Translation will do a reasonable job of translating some of his statements. Beware that he is not in the Green party now, but in CDU, however he is still the same persona with the same attitudes. He was in several political parties during his life, kind of a party hopper. All he cares for is his carreer. But that kind of personality could and probably still can become a figurehead with the Greens. Just money grabbing scum, advocating cuts for everyone but himself. Very “left wing”, eh?

  200. Some people are calling us racists or xenophobes. Well, myself I was too harsh on germans because I wrote too fast but I immediately corrected my mistake. But I fully agree with Mr Watts comment, Mr Watts talked against tyranny, not against Germans in general. And, besides, I have German blood.

    But today socialistic oppressive nonsense “political correctness” is everywhere and if one states obvious facts like how some people are black, brown, yellow or white then invariably one ends up being called a racist or a xenophobe. And if you say, for instance, that brazilian girls often have electrifying beauty and astounding attractiveness and wear sexy long hair, makeup, extremely tight leather pants and high heels and have perfect bodies then you will be called “male chauvinist pig” or something similar for stating such a an obvious but “politically incorrect” fact. It seems nowadays only women can comment on others women beauty because for us men praising women´s attractiveness is “politically incorrect”.

    It is absurd to allege that all the peoples of the world are the same. Peoples are very different: Take South America & Caribbean: We tend to have happy lives centered on our addiction to love & beauty and its passions. Such nature comes basically from our genetics. Up there in the USA you have different genetics and different passions, you have a culture of self control and renouncing passions that was crucial in creating the biggest economic superpower that ever existed and in achieving the most technological prowesses that any country ever saw.

    Latin America and the USA have many things in common, here too we have lots of people that fled european oppressive regimes –like my German grandfather leaving Germany- but probably readers here know a lot about the USA and little about Latin America.

    So we anglo and latin Americans tend to be people that HATE oppresion, because many that hated oppression fled oppressive Europe for the less oppressive Americas (and because of the free spontaneous nature of the tropical wetlands Indians). The great USA has a great tradition of intellectual honesty, respect for the individual, respect for free tought, free contract, free enterprise and private property, limited democratic government and rule of law that is custom while in Europe they tend to have a law that is somewhat more the the imposition of a political class. Such qualities were so outstanding that the small independent American colony became, in EXTREMELY short time (around mid 1800s), the WORLD SUPERPOWER (!!). It is absurd trying to deny the superb qualities of the American people and system, the main quality being perhaps true democracy that actually limits government power and allows a free and prosperous people to exist: It is clear that democracies do not wage wars ON EACH OTHER. Here http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/MIRACLE.HTM you can read how democracy has been MIRACULOUS in bringing peace, the mass murderers were dictatorships or democracies using the dictatorial power that a state of war gives a government. (deaths in combat are not counted as government murders)

    Alexis de Tocqueville already saw the superiority of the American system over the European system when he wrote “Democracy in America” centuries ago. I know Europeans do not like hearing this, but if Europe had such a superior system they would have not had so much blood and oppression and such serial mass murders by government.

    If you take the list of murders by government in the 20th century http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.TAB16A.1.GIF you will see that the only big government murderer in the Americas is Mexico (Guatemala has a high proportions of death). But take Europe and Asia and the deaths will be counted in the HUNDRED OF MILLIONS (!!). That is a HUGE difference between the Americas on one side and Europe and Asia on the other side!.

    Extreme socialism is essentially the vice of sadism, the vice of total power & control & taking enjoyment in punishing people and making them suffer. While the passions related to love & beauty will are very strong in South America or Italy, the vice of sadism & power & control will be found more often in Germany than in the Americas or Italy, IMHO opinion that is the reason Germany saw so much bloodshed.

    And there is racism everywhere, but socialist northern Europeans tend to be more racist than other peoples: Take our extremely beautiful latin American girls from the rain forest wetlands (here is a very interesting relationship, it seems the more availavility of water, the prettier they are) . Wetland girls from South America and Caribbean haven won several Miss Universe constests, meet them and tell me if you see any racism there. The extreme beauty often found, for instance, in São Paulo, Brazil girls is a consequence of the extreme mix of races, something that too happened, to a lesser level, in the USA “melting pot”. A person of extreme mixed race is likely to be less racist than an arrogant socialist northern european that believes he is part of a “superior race”.

    That was my point, germans are a great people and I am proud of my german blood

  201. 10 percent is crucial in proportional representational systems such as are common in Europe. US electoral systems would never deliver Green parties that kind of power. Here in Australia, we have proportional representation in the Senate, and individual seats in the House of Representatives (where the Government is formed). The Greens have disproportionate power because of the ‘balance of power’ in the Senate.

    The bottom line is, Europe’s system of proportional representation has meant that the Greens have been kingmakers many times, with around 10 percent of the vote. It is quite mistaken to think that most Europeans support them directly.

  202. I am really very sorry for shouting in capitals earlier.
    On looking back it was totally wrong and over the top to aproach my point that way.
    So I would like to publically apologise to Anthony for doing that.

    Thanks for changing the Headline to Germany’s Greens,
    ie my point not government or germany as a whole, just the green politicians

  203. johanna says:
    November 12, 2010 at 9:09 am

    “The standards of civility and rational discussion espoused by wuwt have been thrown to the winds here.”
    ========================================================

    I believe the timing of the post has much to do with the perceived lack of “civility”. You see, yesterday was Armistice Day or Remembrance Day in many parts of the world, in the States, we call it Veterans Day. As noted on another post on WUWT, the memory of the sacrifices of many are still fresh. And the scars have never been completely healed. To that end, I think many may have been a tad bit more defensive and offensive than typically seen here. Context is important. This article was posted with the background I described.

  204. The political attitude referred to in Germany is also found in the UK. Witness this statement by a senior Liberal Democrat MP (now a member of the Coalition Government):
    The Liberal Democrat Shadow Foreign Secretary went on to say; “Do they agree that homophobia, racism, sexism and climate change denial have no place in twenty first century European politics? If so, are they still prepared to strike a deal with these people for the sake of political convenience? Don’t the voters have a right to know?” (4th June 2009)

    http://www.windsorlibdems.org.uk/news/000137/davey_conservatives_must_face_the_nasty_truth_about_their_friends_in_europe.html

    So there you have it: According to this senior Liberal Democrat MP, “climate change denial” (and we know what he means by that) is equivalent to racism, sexism and homophobia.

  205. Carl Chapman says:
    November 11, 2010 at 5:23 pm
    “The greens are the new Nazis. Even Hitler didn’t kill as many.”

    Hitler did not hold a candle to Joe Stalin or Mao as far as killing people goes. He was a distant third place at that time (even further behind since then). A much better similarity can be drawn between the greens and the communists, who killed mostly their OWN people, the Nazis did not, as a rule. The eco wackos are like a watermellon, green on the outside and red on the inside.

  206. Anthony,
    Lots of thanks for posting this article. The folks at EIKE and the Friedrich-Naumann-Foundation for Liberty are really grateful and they really appreciate all the help from across the Atlantic. You were (and are) a very big help.

  207. The Germans are excellent people, just like everyone else, as long as they are informed of both sides of the issue. The trouble starts when information and media get controlled by a political and media elite group who all think the same way. That’s the case here. On climate change sceptic views get snuffed out. This is not the fault of the German people. It’s the fault of people like Renate Künast and Jürgen Tritten, the authors of this absurd witchhunt paper.

  208. SouthAmericanGirls says:
    November 12, 2010 at 11:00 am

    yeah. i went to graduate school in europe. tried living in mexico.

    maybe i’ll try Brazil next time i leave the country ;)

  209. P Gosselin says:
    November 12, 2010 at 1:48 pm

    “The Germans are excellent people, just like everyone else, as long as they are informed of both sides of the issue. ”

    You are probably right. But the “Ordnung muss sein” meme might be a small additional factor?

    Here in Norway the AGW tipping point is reached. The majority is no longer buying it. But the politicians are. The Government is talking about forced climate quotas for airline traffic from 1’st jan 2012. I wonder how that’s gonna save the world?

    Talk about being out of phase with reality!

  210. besso says:
    November 12, 2010 at 10:24 am
    “EU plans to spend 1 Billion Euros on renewables and power lines to transfer energie from solar farms in the Sahara and wind farms in the northern sea. Money taken from the people by frightening them with the CO2 lie. ”

    besso, i suppose you are German and mean trillion (German Billion is American trillion – a frequent mistake).

  211. anorak2 says:
    November 12, 2010 at 9:18 am
    [About the German Die Linke / The Left :]
    “I never denied they are socialists. They are. But you said they were communists, which they’re not. ”

    That remains to be seen – they have been working on their party programme for a number of years now and are not done yet.

    I guess it’s a tough paint job to hide the communist core values in weasel words. A member of The Left that i happen to know personally (don’t ask) told me “Marx was right in everything” and elaborated that the Chinese never were true communists, because according to Marx, you first have to go through capitalism before you can reach communism.

    Go figure. For me, that’s as communist as Coca-Cola is capitalist.

  212. johanna says:
    November 12, 2010 at 9:09 am
    “What I find so astonishing about this is that American political debate is very robust, including a lot of untrue and absurd personal vilification, on both sides.”

  213. I live in Germany and I am confused about the article and some comments. Does another Germany exist on this planet? You are writing about a Germany I do not recognize.

    Let’s try to explain:
    Any party in German parliament has the right to ask questions (!) to the government and the government has the duty to answer them.
    What’s wrong to pose some questions? I think, it would be more interesting to discuss the answers of the government. Do you know, how we in Germany call this procedure? It’s simply part of democracy, some people here seem to be thinking of democrazy.

    By the way:
    No newspaper and no citizen in Germany is really interested in either the questions or the answers. Oh, that’s wrong, you have found some.

  214. johanna says:
    November 12, 2010 at 9:09 am
    “What I find so astonishing about this is that American political debate is very robust, including a lot of untrue and absurd personal vilification, on both sides.”

    (trying again)
    johanna, you should see the vitriol on the average German warmist blog. This is nothing. The Americans could call all Germans skinhead cannibal zombies, i wouldn’t care. They would be only half right.

  215. Carl Chapman says:
    November 11, 2010 at 5:23 pm
    “The greens are the new Nazis. Even Hitler didn’t kill as many.”

    Do I have to write down the number of victims in word war II and holocaust? Shame on you.
    In 60 years of the Federal Republic of Germany the green party was 6 years represented in a government. And one of the greatest success was resisting George W. Bush in playing war in Iraq. I’m proud of it. Seems to be sensible and successful investing in green energies instead of wasting money in useless wars.

  216. @anorak2

    I get where you’re coming from. I supported the German Green Party until they got into government and proved themselves to be more interested in power than their principles; last straw for me was when they admitted sanctioning illegal arms deals.

    Die Linke was never an option for me, couldn’t help suspecting the lot of them of wishing the same East German system back they’d been fighting until 1989. Not that I found it that dreadful, I was too young, but I don’t want it back all the same.

    After looking at the climate change issue closer, I lost all sympathy even for the British Greens. Their manifesto is way too anti-science for me. I supported the LibDems instead, and if you follow what’s going on in the UK right now, it’s another sell-out for power, hopefully swiftly followed by a massive loss of voter support. They’ve lost mine, that’s for sure.

    Might be interesting doing the test on the Political Compass website: http://www.politicalcompass.org/index

  217. At 8:52 AM on 11 November, netdr2 had written:

    A more constructive approach would be to invite the skeptics to the party.


    This is not feasible, and has not been feasible for the anthropogenic global warming fraudsters since they began to push this bullpuckey back in the 1980s.

    Allowing audience to any genuinely skeptical disputants (as opposed to the “luke-warmers” whose objections to the preposterous CO2 forcing hypothesis have never been in any way substantial or truly skeptical) tends to cut the ground from beneath the AGW charlatans, and strengthens political resistance to government policy purported to impose any sort of “carbon tax,” as we have seen most prominently in the American mid-term elections that hammered the National Socialist Democrat American Party (NSDAP) on 2 November.

    Congressional incumbents of the NSDAP (formerly called the “Democratic Party”) who had invested their political capital in “cap-and-trade” were slaughtered all over America.

    Either “global warming” skeptics are ridiculed, muzzled, and even prosecuted in Germany, what happened to the NSDAP in these United States on 2 November is going to happen to the politicians who had used the “Cargo Cult Science” of man-made global warming to pillage their constituents.

    Drawing from H.L. Mencken’s Minority Report (1956):

    Government, like any other organism, refuses to acquiesce in its own extinction. This refusal, of course, involves the resistance to any effort to diminish its powers and prerogatives. There has been no organized effort to keep government down since Jefferson’s day. Ever since then the American people have been bolstering up its powers and giving it more and more jurisdiction over their affairs. They pay for that folly in increased taxes and diminished liberties. No government as such is ever in favor of the freedom of the individual. It invariably seeks to limit that freedom, if not by overt denial, then by seeking constantly to widen its own functions. Mankind has failed miserably in its effort to devise a rational system of government. […] The art of government is the exclusive possession of quacks and frauds. It has been so since the earliest days, and it will probably remain so until the end of time.

  218. Alexander Fuchs says:
    November 12, 2010 at 3:59 pm
    “I live in Germany and I am confused about the article and some comments. Does another Germany exist on this planet? You are writing about a Germany I do not recognize.”

    When you are embedded in the belief system that we must reduce CO2, come what may, than you will not understand any of our concerns.

    If you are able to step out of your belief system for a moment, you might understand that the way these questions are posed is not only polemic, but actually contains a strongly religious or totalitarian undertone – how *dare* somebody doubt the holy consensus?

    Don’t know if you can understand that. If you’re a True Believer, probably not.

  219. anorak2

    Welfare reform has appeared to be one issue certain members of the left have made concessions on (Bill Clinton, Tony Blair) but that only make them center-left as their policies, especially for “green economics” has nothing to do with neo-liberalism. So I will agree they (The Greens) are not as far-left as “The Left” in Germany they would still be considered left-wing in the United States. Due to their low percentage of power in the German government, I still believe their votes are compromises on these issues and not a 100% true representation of their ideology. But if one of your points is to state that they have not ideologically represented as far-left politics as “The Left”, I will accept that.

  220. I know there were big hopes from this election that the Republicans are going to be doing something about putting an end to AGW. But I have a hunch they aren’t strong enough to face people like this. These are environmental zealots, union thugs, and others who want power.

    Where are the real men and women who will overcome these frightening zealots? They will not listen to the real science. Apparently the language they speak if force. And it has always seemed to me that has been their language from the start—‘believe us or else your grandchildren will die, or your children will die, or now you will die’. I am always reluctant to bring up parallels to thing like the Khmer Rogue, but it see inklings of it in this.

    It is fortunate that poll numbers show unfavorable numbers against AGW in America.

  221. The problem that I see in the questions being asked from the German government is that perhaps the wrong questions are being asked. If you are going to base your entire EU energy and environmental public policy on hypothetical and worst case future climate warming scenario only ,you better do some serious negative risk analysis of other worst case scenarios as well , some of which may have an equal or better chance of happening rather than just global warming. I would at least ask:
    1] What are the areas of major uncertainty and disagreement still in climate science [Honest science is never settled]
    2] Are we spending our money on risk mitigation that supports multiple possible climate scenarios or outcomes, both cooling or warming or just global warming [No use urging people to buy “Bermuda shorts” only when they may really need “long johns”?]
    3] Are we prematurely spending a lot of money to collect and store carbon dioxide which may be senseless if global cooling develops for the next 10-30 years?
    4] Should global warming prediction prove wrong ,will we also be prepared now for possible global cooling and colder temperature and snow like the late 1970’s [ sufficient heating fuel, food stocks in case of serious farm disruptions , transportation disruptions , snow clearing , etc.
    5] Are we prematurely spending a lot of money to replace fossil fuel generating plants when we really lack the funds to build the more expensive and riskier nuclear plants [more unnecessary national and global debt?]
    6]] How long before large generating plants for alternate or cleaner fuels will be technically viable and available and if these are decades away should we not hold unto our fossil fuel plants despite their risks .

    I am sure other bloggers can think of other questions as well.

  222. @Maren/Pull My Finger

    Yes the political compass makes much more sense than the crude & outdated left-right yardstick. I come out “left/liberarian” in those tests. The 1998/2005 Schröder government is commonly considered “right/authoritarian”, “even though” they were social democrats/green. That doesn’t fit the stereotypes, but if you examine their policies you’ll find it’s true.

    @Poptech
    All German political parties would be considered “left” according to American standards. :) For example there’s none who strives to abolish welfare, none who opposes government interference with the economy etc., they merely disagree on the details. And none who opposes “climate change” policy. In case I haven’t made myself clear, I agree with the first two but disagree with the latter.

  223. Recht und Ordnung? That would be nice indeed. Then the answer would be, “Mr. Singer has a right to speak what he wants, and no one may break his glasses” (as they did to another Singer 20 years ago).

    I agree that these questions are sounding like Spot the Bad Men. Unfortunately, this is common. Note however they do not ask the government to ban dissent, or to take other measures. As for the public funds, these are public funds.

    The Greens may perhaps be best described as “liberal establishment”. You know the type. There’s rich and poor? Well, he is rich (usually he isn’t, he got a nice govt job and spends it all), and he is not concerned about poor Hans, he is concerned that there are not “enough” Mohamads at looniversity. She is all for saving CO2 and thinks we must save even harder, and she told everyone so when she flew overseas to Some Conference of Suits. These are the people that take toy guns from children, and as their first thing they did in power they accepted the Kosovo war.

  224. Re: translation, it captures the meaning, not exceptional, has a few sore spots like

    * “enlightening” should probably be “sound[s] convincing”
    * “passive smoke” is of course “second-hand smoke”
    * “papers” instead of “paper”

    The original uses the adverb “scientifically” in creative ways, like “scientifically published” iirc – if you magnify further you may just get grain.

  225. The problem is the green parties thruout Western democracies. The Soviet Union collapse was a blast of icy realism to the Marxists. Their ideological sponsor could no longer fund their subversive activities to undermine Western democracies to bring social justice to nations suffering from unsanctioned prosperity, or prosperity not delivered by the state. So they burrowed into the feckless tree-hugger parties and taught guerilla warfare to those dreamy irrelevant movements. They learned how to threaten disruptive suits against corporations to force the latter to fund the their movement ambitions and tactics. They learned how to co-opt politicians and parties into passing the green-crafted legislation. Now widespread displeasure with two-party dominated national politics has led to voters choosing them as a way of sending a message to the major parties. That has left the greens with more power than they ever imagined possible. They are incredibly dangerous and tireless activists for destroying prosperity in Western democracies. They still control the agendas of major players in national politics. The media don’t care about climategate or the scientists who try to bring some reason to the green propaganda.

  226. Gawd! Talk about a pavlovian response.

    The entire AGW scheme is concocted in good old USofA and perfidious Albion.

    One parliamentary query addressed to the German government and it’s the fourth Reich already?

    Where did the tag “climate denier” originate? Germany?
    Who originated it? Germans?

    Get a grip people, and start usefully directing some of that good skepticism beyond the climate world. That is, if you have a good set of shock absorbers.

  227. At 7:47 PM, matt v. writes:

    Are we prematurely spending a lot of money to replace fossil fuel generating plants when we really lack the funds to build the more expensive and riskier nuclear plants [more unnecessary national and global debt?]


    Objectively, light water-moderated nuclear fission powerplants (we’re not talking about graphite-moderated piles like the ones constructed at places like Chernobyl in the old Soviet empire) are less risky than any other modality of electric power generation suitable for the support of an industrial civilization, and that includes both earth-surface solar arrays – which we might have had by now if only the “environmentalist” senators from the bankrupt People’s Socialist State of Kalifornia were not putting their considerable seniority behind obstructing planned developments in the otherwise worthless wasteland of the high deserts in their fiefdom – and wind turbines.

    In 1976, engineering professor Petr Beckmann published a small but exceedingly pertinent book titled The Health Hazards of Not Going Nuclear, in which he aggregated information on “the more expensive and riskier nuclear plants” with similar information on all other large-scale power generation methods available (including wind and solar).

    Since 1976, technologies have not significantly advanced, and when Dr. Beckmann re-examined his work in the wake of the Three-Mile Island incident (March 1979), he found no reason whatsoever to revise his relative safety assessments. The numbers of deaths per unit of electric power generated (both direct and indirect, as the result – for example – of carcinogen release into the environment) remained lower for nuclear power than for any other means of power generation.

    That’s from the beginning of the fission fuel cycle in uranium and thorium mining all the way through to both expended fuel recycling (which has been made politically impossible in these United States) and long-term sequestration in geologically stable underground facilities (which has also been made politically impossible here in God’s country).

    I strongly recommend to matt v. that he pick up a copy of The Health Hazards of Not Going Nuclear, which can be found online quite cheaply as a used book despite being out of print. It represents an appreciation of the state of the art in the risks associated with all industrial-scale electric power generation thirty-five years ago, and those relative risks today still favor nuclear power over all other methods, including hydroelectric dams and especially fossil fuels combustion systems.

    Didja know, matt v., that the radiation release per megawatt-hour generated is vastly higher for coal-fired powerplants than it is for any light water-moderated nuke anywhere in these United States?

    The radioactive isotopes of Thorium are so common in coal that the ash residue of coal combustion is under investigation as a source of Thorium fuel for the fission power cycle.

    A nuke that released as much radiation in a year as the average coal-fired powerplant does in a couple of months would be shut down by the U.S. federal government for violating environmental protection standards.

    Every time you read someone who writes about “the more expensive and riskier nuclear plants,” you’ve got yourself a Luddite flaming idiot who has done precisely nothing to study the relative risks of electric power generation.

    Unless you want to slap the hell out of him, such a dolt can simply be ignored with contempt.

  228. Paint it green
    Inmidst the leftists of the German Greens were two or three members who favored market solutions, one was Oswald Metzger, who was not allowed candidate for the Bundestag any more – a clear rejection of his market policy. He therefore left the Greens und became member of another green party: Merkel’s CDU.
    SPD-Schröder won the election 1998 by promising to cut mass unemployment. He failed, but he organized the only labour market reform since decades with the name of Hartz IV (Hartz was a friend of Schröder and at that time VW staff manager). The outcome of this great reform shows now: German unemployment dropped for about 2%. The Greens were in coalition with the green SPD, so they had to accept what chancelor Schröder and the responsible minister Clement had decided. They didn’t like the reform, but they had no choice, if they wanted to stay in power.
    The German greens now don’t have any members any more accepting market solutions – they dream of a total green government with a green supervising brother in every household and a green police with deputies in every tenement house. And because they truely think internationally, they have a dream to enlarge green dictatorship worldwide with Al Gore world president and Bono his propaganda boss.

  229. A “right” party in Germany will be often considered “left” in the USA because the US democratic system is superior to most european democratic systems. But the german people too has a stronger tendency to sadism, militarism, racism, arrogance, power and control -i.e.an stronger tendency to SOCIALISM- than many peoples.

    Europeans often allowed an arrogant political class to have exorbitant power over themselves, they went from serfdom under a monarchic aristocracy to serfdom under a socialist aristocracy.

    The real “class warfare” is between the political class and the people: If the people has lesser power to limit the power of the political class, the political class will increase its power and will turn the people into their serfs. In Europe the political class has been making the people MORE AND MORE DEPENDENT ON THE POLITICAL CLASS: In a tax hell like Germany the government takes more than 40% of your money in taxes. It gives you some of it back. So you must vote for a party that somehow agrees that the political class gives you money back because the political class already took more than 40% of your money (and years ago they took even more than 40%)!. So you will vote for a party that will be “left” according to american standards because the political class made itself so powerful in Europe that people often depend on the political class much more than they depend in the USA. And this is so because in the USA the people is more powerful than in Europe, the US democratic system is, as a rule with exceptions, superior to European democratic systems and never allows the political class to take the exorbitant power it took in Europe.

    In my opinion esentially all this is about SADISM, I have researched it somewhat. Socialist (leftist) politicians are often driven by the vice of SADISM which means having power & control & punishment power over people. But they also want more mundane things like $trillions in tax & spend. Stalin communists and national socialists -all of them EXTREME SOCIALISTS- essentially were looking for an excuse for SADISTIC SERIAL MURDER, for theft of (often all) property and for sadistic punishment, often until death. Demonizing the possession of capital is one of their favorite methods: Jews often were owners of capital, Stalin murdered -by HUNGER, an utter SADISTIC form of assasination- 3 – 10 millions ucranians with the excuse that they were a CLASS that had CAPITAL and never allowed their capital to be STOLEN by the sadistic serial murderers and robbers that called themselves “government”. If you read John Maynard Keynes utter economic nonsense pseudoscience you will see that the demonization of capital ownership and the divinization of tax & spend is his central thesis.

    They demonize the ownership of capital because in such way they can STEALit and they have an excuse to SADISTICALLY MURDER those that own it. And they can push on the button of “ENVY” to achieve it. And they can do that because, until the great USA came to life, there were very little places where CONTRACTUAL FREEDOM and ENTREPRISE FREEDOM actually existed: As a rule, with exceptions, political classes allowed an elite to freely establish a business while impeding the poor to establish a business and that created hundred millions poor and a few ultra rich and because the poor were never allowed to make money the ENVY button was a rather large button to push that was massively used by SOCIALISTS… But it is government intervention, it is the political class that actually created such huge income differences that created a feeling of what leftists call SOCIAL UNJUSTICE…

    Of course the other HUGE button that socialists often push is the COMPASSION BUTTON. I cannot think of a single quality for human convivence that is more important than COMPASSION: The murderer, the sadist, the robber can perprate his crimes because he lacks compassion. For a compassive person it would be very difficult to perpetrate such crimes. So socialists get enormous power over our lives alleging for “compassionate” redistribution of income.

    What I am alleging here is that socialists (& germans) have a higher propensity to sadism & militarism than non socialists, probably there are hundreds millions socialists that are socialists because of genuine compassion.

    But the Great USA came to life and, with total govenment spending of around (less?) 10% of GDP the american democracy became, in less than a century, the world economic superpower because, among other things, the working class man could establish a business and contractual freedom existed an high taxes never ruined business and the working man actually could have a continuous improvement of his standard of living.

    I think the self reliance tradition of the USA is in big part a consequence of the the fact that under a such free system you can sustain yourself without the need of money from the government or charity. Of course, this simple fact is used by socialist europeans to label americans as UNCOMPASSIONATE which is one of the worst labels that you can put on someone. Socialism empoverishes people with taxes and then gives them something back under the COMPASSION banner, for instance poverty in the USA is exagerated and outside the USA they talk about your “poverty” as if in the USA millons were dying of hunger. But if still poor people exists in the world it is mainly because taxes and regulations maintain hundreds millions in poverty, just read Doing Business http://www.doingbusiness.org/data/exploretopics/paying-taxes by the World Bank and you will see that the poorest and more inequal income countries tend to have the highest tax rates. But the World Bank does not take account of the infamous Value Added Tax (VAT) in his computations so the actual situation is much worse than actually is shown there (you never have the infamous VAT in the USA, another sample of your superior political system). So there is genuine compassion for the poor, but it is the political class that caused such poverty through taxes and regulations established thanks to the exorbitant power that the political class gave to itself.

    The USA has always been an utter annoyance to socialist / sadist european politicians, because the USA showed that the US system of FREEDOM and RESPECT of the individual, RESPECT of law that is custom, RESPECT of contractual and enterprise freedom, RESPECT of free thinking, RESPECT of private property “worked” much better than the socialistic / aristocratic system where a bunch of arrogant, overbearing and often sadistic “superior” bullies had exorbitant power to opress the people. The Soviet Union collapsed but one wonders if that collapse would have happened if the USA had never existed. In World War II the Soviet Union fought on the USA side, but the MUTUAL admiration between Stalin and Hitler is well documented… They were both SOCIALIST SADIST SERIAL MASS MURDERERS that sought ultimate power and control.

    I do not know the actual reasons why Stalin sided with the USA but Stalin was a total political genius. I SUPPOSE that he saw that the USA was a democracy and the USA would never allow millions of its soldiers to die but the Soviet Union, being a dictatorship, could bring tens million soviet soldiers to death and in such a way Stalin could conquer all the eastern european countries that he actually conquered. If the USA never existed the 3 socialistic industrial superpowers Japan, Germany and the Soviet Union probably would have crushed the rest of Europe (Italy is a very special case). There would have been no democratic Western Europe and no USA -because the USA would never exist, by hypothesis- and serfdom and poverty would be the rule in the world, as it was before the great USA came to life.

    In South America and the Caribbean there were lots of dictatorships, but none of them, even the communist ones, where as murderous as the National Socialist or the Stalin dictatorship. Mexico fares bad in Latin America but Mexico is NOT Latin America (and Germany is not Europe, one must state too). Hitler was elected by 33% of votes, if I remember well. In South America no candidate with Hitler’s message of hatred would have won by such margins. So the German tendency to opression is clear. Peoples are not the same, regimes are not the same, there is a stronger tendency in the German people toward socialism / militarism / sadism /power / control and there is a stronger tendency in the US people for RESPECT and freedom, that is an undeniable fact.

    Maybe Germany became such a relatively militarist / socialist society because they were permanently at war with neighbors and they had hard winters and you died without food so often you had to kill to survive. Maybe in the latin american rain forest regions we became so easy going and spontaneous because there was always food everywhere and water to drink and to take a bath before and after making love, curbing diseases…

  230. tucci78
    Records of past wars have shown that power plants and energy infrastructure are the first facilities to be targeted for destruction. The more nuclear facilities we have in more countries the greater the risk for massive contamination during conflicts and major wars and the more likely that more nuclear weapons may be developed and used by more nations. Even as we speak some hawks of this world are threatening to bomb nuclear facilities of other nations.

    Today we also face new risks such as terrorists, regional conflicts, risk of rising sea levels, the risk of lack of sufficient water to cool the reactors due to drought, and other unexpected natural disasters. How much contamination and pollution is there with both options under all risk situations and not just operating risks?

    Nuclear power may be safe in the hands of rational people, operating and maintaining safe plants, in safe locations, during stable geological and political times. Not all parts of this world are this way, nor are the times ahead projected to be environmentally, politically and geophysically stable. Before we throw out the fossil fuel baby lets be sure of what lies ahead and which option really has the greater risk. Both options have given risks. Are we jumping from the fossil fuel pan into the nuclear broiler?
    There may very well be good cases where the cleanest and latest technology based fossil fuel energy options may still be the best solution especially for smaller developing nations. Until alternative cleaner energies like solar, wind and geothermal can be developed in plant sizes comparable to those of fossil fuel plants for major industrial nations, we should not rush into nuclear energy as the main large capacity option.

  231. @SouthAmericanGirls
    Sadism is a personal emotional quality, marxism is an abstract social ideology.
    Douglass North, Karl Popper, Hayek and others started as socialists before becoming wise.
    Good to read to prevent rubbish: Hugh Trevor-Roper: Was Nazism unique? / Alan Bullock: Hitler and Stalin. Works on the Hundred-Years-War between France and Great Britain, the British battles against Spain.
    And: never think in collective terms, there is no thing like a stable national character.

  232. I agree with Terri Jackson’s comment above.

    It is time for a counter offensive against the AGW religion that has taken hold of the UK media/political/educational establishment.

  233. At 11:51 AM on 13 November, matt v. responds to my message of 7:15 AM with a post beginning:

    Records of past wars have shown that power plants and energy infrastructure are the first facilities to be targeted for destruction. The more nuclear facilities we have in more countries the greater the risk for massive contamination during conflicts and major wars and the more likely that more nuclear weapons may be developed and used by more nations. Even as we speak some hawks of this world are threatening to bomb nuclear facilities of other nations.


    …demonstrating that he’s as ignorant of military matters as he is of engineering and industrial processes safety. Damn. I’m just a country GP. Why do I have to find that so many people are so much less competent to speak on so many subjects than I am?

    Especially in the era of the World Wide Web, when matt v. can access online sources like Jim Dunnigan and Austin Bay and similar folk. It may be that matt v. reads nothing but sources like the Federation of American Scientists which scaremonger incessantly upon the vulnerabilities of civilian nuclear powerplants to conventional military and unconventional terrorist attack (while, of course, failing to consider the similar susceptibilities of structures like hydroelectric dams), fixating upon risks associated with the release of ionizing radiation.

    First, in terms of military vulnerability, there are effectively no civilian-sector targets in these continental United States which are not potentially susceptible to attack with chemical or nuclear explosive weapons launched by a belligerent foreign government. Given, however, the relative hardening of containment structures mandated in existing and planned (but politically obstructed) civilian nuclear powerplants, these are – relatively speaking – not the most likely targets for military attack, particularly when the Northeast power outage of 2003 had demonstrated that the distribution system (the “grid”) is extremely easy to take down. Talk about your “soft targets”….

    Ditto for terrorist actions, “suitcase from Allah” scenarios notwithstanding.

    Second, matt v. fails of adequate knowledge in his unreasoned and uneducated regard for the potential of civilian light water-moderated power generation – at any stage of the nuclear fuel cycle – to produce bomb-grade fissile materials, particularly were the “nimby” politicians in the various state capitals and in Mordor-on-the-Potomac to get to hellangone out of the way and allow the power industry to implement the recycling of spent fuel components the way the French have been safely doing for decades.

    A “dirty bomb” belligerent release of radioactive materials is, of course, possible. But what role has an American civilian nuclear power industry to play in even the most fantastically preposterous reach for a neurotic concern thereupon?

    Civilian nuclear power generation in these United States should continue to be suppressed because uninformed people like matt v. sweat and gibber over the pure possibility that somebody might break into one of these powerplants and do…what, precisely?

    A guy with a backpack full of Composition C4? Nah, that wouldn’t do much, even if detonated right outside the containment. A truck bomb rolling up to the gate, Beirut-style? Gawd, but those ferroconcrete containment structures are designed to survive – intact – the impact of a crashing commercial jet airliner. I think they picked the Boeing 747 as their standard.

    matt v., the Three Mile Island facility suffered a meltdown in 1979, and the result was a radiation release such that – had you been stripped naked and bound to the chain-link fence next to the guard shack at the main entrance throughout that “disaster” with a dosimeter taped to your generative apparatus – that gadget would have recorded a bit less than the ionizing radiation you’d have gotten in a routine 1979 chest x-ray.

    Third, in the event of a military attack upon these United States, it is damned peculiar that matt v. fixes his attention upon the prospect of an “infrastructure strike” aimed at breaching the hardened containment vessels of civilian nuclear powerplants when anybody with any appreciation of warfare – even “asymmetric warfare” – understands full well that the first priority of any foreign power seeking to impose such violence upon our polity would be the neutralization of both the conventional and the nuclear weapons capabilities of America’s military and naval forces.

    Ever heard the word “deterrence,” matt v.? Consider the foreign government (or governments) who might conceivably seek to breach an American civilian fission powerplant’s containment with bombs or missiles – or even kinetic energy weapons targeted from orbit – and then think of cities in that nation-state (or alliance) turned catastrophically to expanses of trinitite.

    By the time any non-suicidal foreign government (even that of North Korea, or the Iranian mullahcracy) gets down to prioritizing the civilian nuclear power stations over which you freak so fixedly, they would have to have first destroyed all American retaliatory capability.

    Who – do you think, matt v. – is out there rattling a saber capable in one fell swoop of taking out all those Ohio-class boomers, all those Minuteman missile silos, all those Nimitz-class fleet aircraft carriers, all those cruisers and destroyers armed with Tomahawk SLCMs which – surprise! – can and almost certainly do carry fission-weapon warheads, and that whole U.S. Air Force?

    I tell you three times, matt v., that I give not one least little bitty damn for whether or not “the cleanest and latest technology based fossil fuel energy options may still be the best solution especially for smaller developing nations” because my only proximal concern as a citizen of these United States is for those economic and health conditions prevailing in my own polities, state and federal.

    These realms are where my responsibilities and authority as a citizen run, and as such I direct and demand – for whatever the individual citizen’s voice counts in our republic – that those who govern in my name cease obstructing the nuclear power generation industry and let those of us in the private sector get along with the construction and operation of these powerplants to serve the demands of our industrial civilization.

    Oh, yeah. I am emphatically not advocating any effort to “throw out the fossil fuel baby” in pursuit of nuclear fission power generation. It’s simply that reduction in relative dependence upon coal-fired electricity generation is likely to save a helluva lot of lives.

    Now that Senator Byrd is finally dead, perhaps the next Congress will permit public discussion in that forum of the chemical and radioactive carcinogenicity of the residue of coal combustion, too. Wouldn’t that be a novelty?

  234. Tucci78

    You said
    “Oh, yeah. I am emphatically not advocating any effort to “throw out the fossil fuel baby” in pursuit of nuclear fission power generation.”

    You and I will continue to disagree about the relative risks associated with fossil fuel and nuclear plants, but I think we agree that fossil fuel plants should not be replaced by nuclear plants unless there are real and legitimate reasons. [Fighting global warming is not one of those reasons in my opinion as it will make little difference to the climate in my judgment]. Yet this is what is being urged on the world today . This was the point of my previous post.
    In my own part of the world, a coal fired plant completed only in 1978 with a capacity of 3640 megawatts [located in the country] is scheduled to be shut down soon and to be replaced by new nuclear plant in order to fight global warming. This move is creating enormous new and unnecessary debt to our region. The same is being urged in many other parts of the world by these global warming alarmists.

  235. Tucci 78 @ 4:56

    Here’s one problem with your argument. In your scenario replace that reactor facility with a large financial facility. Or two.
    ========

  236. Thanks to WattsUpWithThat for publishing my VERY LONG comment on the many ways in which european socialists try to demonize the United States of America and freedom! The hatred for FREEDOM often exists because FREEDOM destroys the POWER & CONTROL & PUNISHMENT & TRILLIONS orgy that some want.

    In the past I used to fight the left in my country national press, and we know that the left is WORLD ORGANIZED, that they want POWER & POWER & POWER & CONTROL & TRILLIONS and that the same falsehoods are repeated all over the world in order to control us, punish us, bring violence, take away our money and that if we allow some few people to have the EXTREME POWER that they wish we could see again the MASS MURDER that we saw on the 20th century. I will try to keep my comments short, I hope that one was my LAST long comment. Thanks again for allowing me to comment.

  237. At 1:02 PM on 14 November, kim responds to my post of 4:56 PM (13 November) with the following in its entirety:

    Here’s one problem with your argument. In your scenario replace that reactor facility with a large financial facility. Or two.


    To which the proper response seems to be “WTF?” – or perhaps “What the hell are you getting at?”

    Any “large financial facility” is today bound to be nothing more than a computerized counting house, with no significant physical operating assets other than computers, with software and data backed up off-site. The buildings and the skilled personnel required to operate any such “large financial facility” are eminently replaceable.

    I direct to kim‘s attention the way in which the New York financial services industry recovered so swiftly in the wake of the 9/11/2001 attacks on the World Trade Center and the dislocations inflicted thereby on the financial district of lower Manhattan as a whole. Facilities across the Hudson in New Jersey – where there was ample office space going a-begging for tenants even at that time – enabled the finance industry to quickly restore capacity, though in much less geographically concentrated form, and though there were shocks throughout the investment world (investors being flighty and easily panicked as they always are, for their houses of speculation are built upon nothing more solid than hard vacuum irradiated with stupidity, deceit and greed), there was nothing more than a bobble.

    The WTC suicide attacks – which were supposed to bring the infidel West to its knees and advance the Caliphate or something – thus became little more than an excuse for the Good Old Boys of the Texas oilpatch to indulge their aspirations in the military conquest of Iraq.

    As for the single aircraft that made its way into an impact against General Groves’ less towering office building in northern Virginia…. Hmph. Did that attack on the Pentagon in any way impair our federal government’s military response to those towel-headed schmucks?

    Command and control assets in both the government and the private sector have become distributed, and even if somebody found a way to smash every “large financial facility” on the planet in a rain of fiery death, the second- or third-tier people in the finance industry would have a trading system kludged-up and running in a week or so, pulling up data cached in remote (and therefore cheap to operate) back-up sites all over the planet.

    Think “bloody war or sickly season.” You think that there aren’t plenty of ex-Business majors and MBA types out there in flyover country who wouldn’t greet such a slaughter of the silver-spoon establishment clowns with great hosannas of rejoicing as they moved up and moved in?

    kim, just what the hell do you think might be released to contaminate the environment were a “large financial facility” – or two, or twenty, or three hundred – to be suddenly turned into smoking rubble upon the landscape?

    Speaking from my own perspective, the smell of their immolation might possibly be more satisfying to my aesthetic sense than is the stench of their continued operation.

  238. At 11:53 AM on 14 November, matt v. had clarifiedYou and I will continue to disagree about the relative risks associated with fossil fuel and nuclear plants, but I think we agree that fossil fuel plants should not be replaced by nuclear plants unless there are real and legitimate reasons. [Fighting global warming is not one of those reasons in my opinion as it will make little difference to the climate in my judgment]. Yet this is what is being urged on the world today . This was the point of my previous post.

    In my own part of the world, a coal fired plant completed only in 1978 with a capacity of 3640 megawatts [located in the country] is scheduled to be shut down soon and to be replaced by new nuclear plant in order to fight global warming. This move is creating enormous new and unnecessary debt to our region. The same is being urged in many other parts of the world by these global warming alarmists. …
    It should be understood – and I’d thought to have made myself quite clear in previous posts on this thread – that I am in no way a supporter of the anthropogenic global warming (now “man-made climate dislocation”?) fraud. I have been following this preposterous hypothesis since it was first floated in the late ’70s, and throughout its development I have marked the hypocrisy, deceitfulness, charlatanry, and vicious politicization of this “Cargo Cult Science.”

    This notwithstanding, I yet again draw to the attention of matt v. Dr. Beckmann’s The Health Hazards of Not Going Nuclear (1976), and repeat my strong suggestion that the silly booger get his hands on a copy of that very simple, very readable book.

    As for the intrinsic and inescapable public health hazards of coal – and the political machinations made for generations to ram it down the collective throat of the public in all the western democracies – I quote from this online sample chapter of John Ringo’s 2005 novel, Into the Looking Glass, setting the scene to inform that the character of “Dr. Bill Weaver” is a physicist consulted to investigate a catastrophic explosion in Orlando, and the sergeant is a Florida National Guard noncom with a specialty in chemical warfare:

    “I understand you know what’s going on here,” the sergeant said as he climbed in as driver. The other soldier climbed in the back.

    “No,” Bill replied. “But I understand what might have happened, somewhat, and I’ve got some theories about what is happening and what might happen. And I know some of the questions to ask. Other than that, I’m in the dark.”

    The sergeant laughed and shook his head. “Can you explain it in small words?”

    “Not unless you know what a Higgs boson particle is,” Bill said, aware that he was going to have to explain it over and over again.

    “A theoretical particle in quantum mechanics that can contain a universe,” the sergeant replied. “But you can’t form them unless you’ve got a really big supercollider. Right?”

    “Right,” Bill said, looking at the sergeant in surprise. “Did somebody call ahead?”

    “No,” the sergeant replied, making a turn onto the Greenway. For once it was nearly empty of traffic. He took the Sunpass lane despite not having a transponder. “I was working on my masters in physics and then things went awry. Optics, actually.”

    “I’ve got a Ph.D. in optics,” Bill said. “And physics for that matter.”

    “Sorry, Doctor, I didn’t know that,” the sergeant said, wincing.

    “I don’t make everybody call me Doctor, Sergeant,” Bill said, grinning. “I’m just an overeducated redneck, not some soi-disante academic. So how’d you end up in the National Guard?”

    “Long story,” the sergeant replied. After a long moment he shrugged. “I was working on my masters, working with blue-light lasers. One of my classes I had to have a peer reviewed paper published. You know the routine.”

    “Sure.”

    “Didn’t have my experiments in lasers as far along as I wanted so I made the mistake of branching out. I got tired of everybody mouthing off about nuclear power so I did a comparative study of radioactive output from the Turkey Creek nuclear power plant vs. the big coal plant east of Orlando.”

    “Forgone conclusion,” Weaver grunted. “Coal’s nasty stuff.”

    “I knew that and you know that, but I’d done the research and there wasn’t a single peer reviewed comparative.”

    “None?” Weaver said, surprised.

    “Not one. So I did the tests, no detectable radiation outside of the plant itself for Turkey Creek and enough to cook a chicken in the tailings of the coal plant, which were, by the way, blowing into a nearby stream, and submitted it. To Physics. Got a response in a month. The paper was rejected for peer review and was not accepted for publication. My credentials were in optics, not nuclear physics.”

    “That’s . . . odd,” Bill said. “I smell a fish.”

    “So did I. Especially when I was summarily dropped from the master’s program shortly afterwards. Nobody would talk to me except one of my professors, who made me swear not to say who it was or make a stink. Not that it would do me any good. Know the senior senator from West Virginia?”

    “Oh, no,” Weaver said, shutting his eyes. “King Coal.”

    “You got it. He apparently made a deal all the way back in the 1960s. Florida got NASA stuff but to power it they had to build a coal-fired power plant. And keep it running. He protects coal like it was his own personal child, which in a way I suppose it is. Anyway, a lowly master’s candidate had attracted the personal ire of a senior senator. Said master’s candidate needed to go away now. Please, don’t bother submitting at other institutes of higher learning. You are the weakest link. Goodbye.”


    Seems to say what needs to be said about coal-fired electrical power generation and the suppression of information with regard to public health perils associated therewith.

  239. Answer to Mr Doleys Part 1
    Sorry to wattsupwiththat.com if my comment is long, but I felt the need to spend enormous time refuting Mr Doleys
    Mr. Wolf Doleys says:
    a) “Sadism is a personal emotional quality, marxism is an abstract social ideology.”
    b) “Good to read to prevent rubbish”
    c)” there is no thing like a stable national character.”

    Thanks for showing facts that agree with my statements Mr Doleys. You show attitudes that one more often will find in Germans. In b) you arrogantly said that I should read MORE. I do read a lot. The thesis that Stalin was a slave of the perversion of

    SADISM (and Hitler a slave of the perversion of NECROPHILIA) I read from GERMAN SOCIALIST psychologist Erich Fromm , Fromm explained in “The Anatomy of Human Destructiveness” how such demons as Stalin and Hitler existed.

    And I have read a lot on nazism, communism, I usually read the plain facts, avoiding interpretations but I use a few interpretations -like Fromm’s explanation of Hitler & Stalin evil nature- when I see no logical errors in those interpretations.

    There used to be little data about communism but now, with the fall of communism, STALIN’S SADISTIC COMPASSIONLESS SERIAL MASS MURDERER NATURE becomes crystal clear. For instance, we had to wait until this decade for the

    world to widely accept that the death of millions ucranians in 1932-1933 was SADISTIC MASS MURDER -BY HUNGER- PERPETRATED BY STALIN and NOT death by natural famine. As for evil natures, the “politically correct” thesis says than

    some childhood traumas turned Hitler into such a demon. But thousands persons suffered similar “traumas” and they finished as normal compassionate people and not as compassionless cold serial mass murderers. Such fact agrees with the

    thesis that says that people are born with passions & perversions in the same way they are born with white or black skin or with a propensity to diabetes or cardiac disease or a stronger musculature, or with heterosexual or homosexual sexual

    orientations, etcetera. There are several cases where identical twins were separated at birth and when they meet latter in life it occurs that they do have similar professions, have similar tastes and lead similar lives. And, besides academic data, I

    have experimental results because I am myself an human being and I know that the tastes & vices that I have now are essentially the same tastes & vices that I had as a kid and nobody learned me them. And I have close knowledge of other human

    beings. And it is clear that there are people who are slaves of one or several vices or passions and there are other people who are not. Myself I am a slave of the boring extremely common unharmful to others vice of eating too much. When I was in

    my 20s with MASSIVE exercise I was able to defeat it but now I cannot anymore exercise so much and I may be on a losing battle and so I undestand how one can be a slave of a pleasure. So for me, knowing me and other human beings, it is obvious that both Stalin and Hitler –

    as Erich Fromm superbly shows- were depraved perverted persons in perpetual search of satisfying their insatiable SADISM perversion (and NECROPHILIA TOO in Hitlers case).

  240. Answer to Mr Doleys part 2 and final

    But Mainstream Academia, Media and Bureaucracy, amid the perpetual distortion of truth that you will often find there, often call serial mass murderers “ideologues” instead of murderers: I was talking about National Socialism and about Stalin’ s

    -and in a lesser degrees Lenin’ s- philosophy of mass murder and mass theft of property by a despotic state: A normal person with moral feelings instantly knows that murdering people is wrong, an is instantly horrified by such ideologies in the

    same way that many of us in this forum are instantly horrified here when we see so many nazi / soviet parallels in the “greens”. A normal person has some compassion and cannot accept such cold blooded butchery, human coexistence needs

    obvious moral rules and often religions assembled those rules together in their moral codes. Stalinnism may be an ideology, I do not know the exact definition of “ideology”, but statinnism pretends to “justify” what cannot be justified i.e. serial mass

    murder / mass robbery / mass punishment / mass imprisonement and total control & total prohibitions over people’s lives. It is pretty clear that sadism was the main perversion driving Stalin and many other people, and that their “ideology” was a

    justification for mass crime. There are Hitlers and Stalins out there, but in modern democracies they are probably in prison and not the rulers of a despotic state. Here http://home.comcast.net/~neoeugenics/bbc.htm you can read an extract of

    “The Black Book of Communism” and you can see how bolsheviks were essentially mass murderers and mass robers with a very clear depraved passion for inflicting pain and having power and control, and it is clear how they often pursued a

    LAWLESS state, i.e., a DESPOTISM, and that “class warfare” was essentially another excuse for mass murder & theft.

    What I said two paragraphs behind about inborn human nature shows that people are born different, and such fact implies that COLLECTIONS OF PEOPLE, i.e., populations of countries are TOO born different and that therefore peoples are

    different. That is obvious: For instance in Germany you tend to have white skin while in Africa they tend to have black skin- but mainstream academia often excels in denying obvious truths. Rummel showed statistically that DEMOCRACY is

    MIRACULOUS for avoiding MURDER BY GOVERNMENTS http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/MIRACLE.HTM and that non democratic governments are the serial mass murderers (but democratic governments can be mass murderers when they

    use the dictatorial powers that a state of war gives them). Well, we had several dictatorships in the Americas in the 20th century and none of them were as murderous as the nazi dictatorship (21 million murdered by government in nazi Germany

    http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM and that does no takes account of the millions deaths in combat) or the soviet dictatorship (62 million murdered) . Our murderours regimes are concentrated on NORTHERN Latin America and are

    Guatemala and Mexico -1,4 million murdered, which is far from Nazi Germany but probably in those times Mexico had less population than Germany under Hitler- . The data is here http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.TAB16A.1.GIF . And I

    state it again: South America and the Caribbean (and, of course, anglo NORTH America) do not have the history of bloodshed that Germany has. We are different peoples and that is obvious.

    About sadism, I clearly talked about SOCIALIST politicians OFTEN being sadists, not about the non politician socialists and I clearly said that MANY politicians, not ALL of them had a penchant for sadism. A “leftist” politician that wants to increase

    the exorbitant power & control & punishment power that the political class already has in Germany and in most of Europe must have some sadism for alleging for such an immoral increase in power & control & punishment power because sadism

    is the want to have power and control and being able to punish people. I have discussed for years with european style socialists and the discussion overwhelmingly is about they wanting more power & control & punishment power & tax & spend

    and we trying to stop their “more power” urges, their frequent obsession for power is TOO OBVIOUS to deny.

  241. @ Latin Girl Part I
    Sorry for being undiplomatic. I don’t mean it personal.
    Before you interpret wrong again, I have to mention first, that I’m not of German offspring. And: To judge from one number to a greater mass is not possible; all traits can be found all over the world, and individuals can always contradict the group of origin. Therefore there always has to be a close look at the individual without any glance at the home group.
    Erich Fromm was a German-Jewish marxist Freudian so called psychologist who wrote a lot of socialist Freudian phantasies, strictly avoiding empirical methods. I admit being a young man I have read him with some appreciation.
    Stalin was a sadist only in a very abstract way, so no real sadist, that is one who likes to make people suffer by his own hands.
    Robert Conquest wrote „The Harvest of Sorrow: Soviet Collectivization and the Terror-famine.“
    This awful killing of millions was not sadistic, it was political administrative mass murder „by the way“. The communists took away the harvest and left the farmers behind without corn, so they had no food and no seed for the coming year and the year after, and the communist party did not bother about the starving people.
    But a sadist bothers: he enjoys to torture with his own hands, he is eager to see his victim suffering face to face.
    „ Childhood traumas“: that is Freudian rubbish. I am glad to agree:
    „ people are born with passions & perversions“ , see Hans Jürgen Eysenck, Dimensions of Personality etc.
    And I do appreciate that you are so engaged.

  242. @ Latin Girl Part II

    Lipset called the US „The first new Nation“ – but are the US really a nation, a people? Many of the Doleys-family have gone to the US and have become Americans, distributing their asiatic genes on the „normal“ way – sex was established some hundreds of millions of years ago as a method to mix genes more frequently. Cultures operate contrasting: the exclude other individuals to preserve their cultural group. So the US-Chinese stick to their group, Latinas prefer Latin Lovers, Italians like Italians etc. There are genetic cross transfers, but only at the edges. Huntington asked concerned: „Who are we?“
    The most interesting answer gave Max Weber, the „Marx-Killer“, in his essays „The protestant sects and the spirit of capitalism“. The protestant sects came over from Europe and made the American wilderness overtake the wealthy Argentine (Latin „Silver Land“) within 150 Years (see David Landes, Poverty and Wealth of Nations).
    So the Americans are the New Europeans, having the same pool of genes, but developing them in individualistic conditions, in an individual and pluralistic cultural framework allowing free enterprise and vitalizing sharp contrasts. This is not really a nation, it is a combination of apt individuals of very different origin in a nationlike frame.
    This reminds on the „Germanies“, les Allemagnes, as the French used to say, die Deutschländer, denn „Deutschland“, „Germany“ hat es nie im Singular gegeben, has never existed in a single land. Since 10.000 years all kinds of folks have crossed „Middle-Europe“, the Netherlands are kind of German as well as Austria. The early „Holy Roman German Realm“ consisted of 1789 (!) sub-realms – it was very loose and weak compared with France and England. „Germany“ actually is a late invention of nationalism in the 19th century stimulated and provoked by France and the UK. More France, which attacked the Germanies since Louis XIV., and Napoleon conquering all German lands till Moscow.

    It is a great misunderstanding to construct any connection of sadism and socialism, because of the fact, that the marxist fraction exercised terror to reach their aims. Socialism and marxism are branches of christianity, see Th. Morus, Utopia / Savonarola, „De simplicitate Christianae vita” / Campanella, Civitas solis, Der Sonnenstaat. But these christian authors are influenced by the POLITEIA of Platon, the archetypus of idealism, rationalism and a sort of communism. That is a line of tradition which has some merits, it can be and should be contrasted with other ideas and it can be criticised, off course, but it should be considered as serious thinking. It is the true tragedy of thinking, that it can depart from good will and end in mass murder. Consider Robespierre. Consider Robespierre a genuine heir of Rousseau.
    I see e.g. Obama in this line of caring Christians, but I personally don’t like caring very much. The same applies to the climate phantasies. Thinking often is entirely wrong. Hayek called it the PRETENSION OF KNOWLEDGE.

  243. [snip take your arguments elsewhere, you are becoming disruptive here, and quite frankly I’m tired of it – Anthony Watts]

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