Biden’s EV Bus Disaster: Another Green Energy Scam Collapses

If the Biden administration’s green energy agenda were a bus, it would have no wheels, a dead battery, and a $160 million price tag. Enter Lion Electric, a Canadian electric school bus company that was handed nearly $160 million in taxpayer-funded subsidies—only to collapse into bankruptcy, leaving school districts across America high and dry​.

Now, watchdogs like EPA administrator Lee Zeldin are demanding answers, exposing yet another mismanaged, wasteful, and completely avoidable green energy failure.

$160 Million to Nowhere

As part of Biden’s $5 billion Clean School Bus program, Lion Electric was awarded $159 million to produce 435 electric buses. The administration touted it as a hallmark of its climate agenda, with Kamala Harris herself front and center, gushing over the initiative​.

Fast forward to today:

  • Lion Electric has stopped manufacturing.
  • It has laid off its workforce.
  • It hasn’t delivered $95 million worth of promised buses to 55 school districts​.

Superintendents across the country are left wondering whether they’ll ever receive the buses they were promised. “No buses have been delivered to our district. We are on hold,” said Dawn Wallace, superintendent of Ohio Valley School District in Ohio​.

Warnings Were Ignored

Here’s the kicker: Lion Electric was in deep financial trouble long before Biden started funneling money into it.

  • Since 2020, the company has lost $301.6 million.
  • Its stock price has collapsed from $33.48 per share to just $0.08—a staggering 99.7% wipeout​.
  • It was hit with a class-action lawsuit after allegedly misleading investors with “grossly unrealistic financial projections”​.

And yet, the Biden administration kept the money flowing, rewarding a failing company because it fit the “green energy” narrative.

Lee Zeldin Calls Out the Corruption

Unlike the rubber-stamp bureaucrats who handed Lion Electric millions with no oversight, EPA administrator Lee Zeldin is demanding answers. He pointed to an undercover video from Project Veritas in which a Biden official admitted that the EPA frantically pushed billions into green projects before the administration left office​.

Zeldin isn’t buying the excuses, stating:

“They knew they were wasting hard-earned American taxpayer dollars… The American people deserve answers. I am committed to delivering for them.”

House Energy and Commerce Chairman Brett Guthrie (R-KY) also blasted the administration, saying:

“The Biden-Harris Administration spent four years wasting taxpayer dollars pursuing its Green New Deal agenda… Communities across the country are paying the price”​.

The Joliet Factory Debacle

One of the biggest symbols of this failure is Lion Electric’s 900,000-square-foot factory in Joliet, Illinois.

  • The plant was supposed to create 1,400 jobs.
  • Local officials hyped it as a clean energy success story.
  • Today, it’s a ghost town, with Lion Electric halting operations and laying off workers​.

Even Joliet’s economic development director admitted, “Now we have in our community a large space that is potentially going to sit vacant for a while.” Translation: We were conned, and now we’re stuck with an empty factory​.

Another Green Energy Scam Implodes

Lion Electric’s collapse follows a familiar pattern of government-funded green energy disasters:

  1. Biden administration throws taxpayer money at a politically favored company.
  2. Company was already financially unstable but gets millions anyway.
  3. Company burns through cash, fails to deliver, then collapses.
  4. Taxpayers and local communities are left with nothing but empty promises.

We saw it with Solyndra. We saw it with Proterra. And now, we’re seeing it with Lion Electric.

The difference this time? Lee Zeldin and House Republicans aren’t letting Biden off the hook.

The Bottom Line

The Biden administration’s obsession with green energy subsidies has led to billions in waste, failed projects, and broken promises.

Meanwhile, school districts still need buses, communities still need jobs, and American taxpayers are once again paying the price for Biden’s reckless spending.

It’s time to stop funding fantasies and start demanding real accountability—and thanks to Lee Zeldin, that reckoning might finally be coming.


About the feature image. Lion Electric did win mHUB’s Chicago manufacturer of the year award last March.

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Tom Halla
February 8, 2025 6:08 am

Money laundering? If something is manifestly stupid, maybe there is something else going on?

Scissor
Reply to  Tom Halla
February 8, 2025 6:14 am

Yeah, and, from above, the stupidity of school district superintendents couldn’t be more obvious.

“Superintendents across the country are left wondering whether they’ll ever receive the buses they were promised. “No buses have been delivered to our district. We are on hold,” said Dawn Wallace, superintendent of Ohio Valley School District in Ohio​.”

Mac
Reply to  Scissor
February 8, 2025 7:09 am

Has it dawned on Dawn yet that they will never be delivered? Asking for a friend.

Reply to  Scissor
February 8, 2025 7:24 am

Is the school district paying for these buses, or is the U.S. taxpayer paying for these buses?

I see the school district complaining about not getting delivery, but I don’t see any complaints about the school district losing their money, so that makes me think maybe they are not losing any money because they don’t have any money in it.

Just wondering. It wouldn’t surprise me that Biden planned to pass out “free” EV buses to different school districts.

Scissor
Reply to  Tom Abbott
February 8, 2025 7:34 am

They’ve been paid for by federal, state and local taxpayers alike.

Reply to  Tom Abbott
February 8, 2025 9:21 am

“Is the school district paying for these buses, or is the U.S. taxpayer paying for these buses?”

What leads you to imply that school districts (anywhere) operate without relying on funding by US taxpayers?

Reply to  ToldYouSo
February 9, 2025 4:07 am

I know school districts are funded by U.S. taxpayers who live in the school district.

I wasn’t aware that the federal government bought school buses for school districts, so that’s why I asked the question.

Reply to  Tom Abbott
February 9, 2025 9:04 am

Thanks for the clarification . . . asked and answered!

KevinM
Reply to  Tom Abbott
February 8, 2025 10:22 am

Broken record but… “is the U.S. taxpayer paying for these buses?
US taxpayer is paying interest on things bought a few years ago. US taxpayer will pay interest on the busses next year.

If the finances were done right US taxpayers would be saying “here’s your busses back, we’re going to keep using the old models”

ethical voter
Reply to  Tom Abbott
February 8, 2025 8:40 pm

There is no such thing as a ‘free bus’.

Reply to  ethical voter
February 9, 2025 9:06 am

Excellent . . . +42 intergalactic credits!

Reply to  Tom Abbott
February 18, 2025 12:18 pm

Yep, the wheels fell off alright:

comment image

c1ue
Reply to  Tom Halla
February 8, 2025 6:55 am

There’s some of that, but the core is plain old fashioned corruption.
If you are a solar PV, or wind turbine, or EV, or some other “new” “clean” getup – there is no problem offering Directorships or stock to current or ex-government officials who can funnel subsidies your way. It is a dirty dealing self licking ice cream cone.

Walter Sobchak
Reply to  Tom Halla
February 8, 2025 7:04 am

Just old fashioned stealing.

Reply to  Tom Halla
February 8, 2025 7:48 am

It is no wonder that Democrats and Republicans alike have resisted accountability at every level. Recall the funding for Ukraine. Even Republican senators demanded that no rigorous accounting be attached to the largesse.

Derg
Reply to  Mark Whitney
February 8, 2025 11:27 am

This ^

the Uniparty

Reply to  Mark Whitney
February 8, 2025 11:50 am

Of course they did. The way that it works is that the US gets to donate obsolete weapons to Ukraine and so does NATO who then buy shiny new ones from the USA.
It saves te cost of writing them off.
Europe dumps its F16s on Ukraine and buys shiny new F35s.
USA dumps its obsolescent HIMARS and stocks up with new ones.

Reply to  Leo Smith
February 8, 2025 12:14 pm

There was a considerable amount of cash included in the deal, not just the old ordinance.

abolition man
Reply to  Mark Whitney
February 8, 2025 12:28 pm

I don’t understand why they didn’t get more of the weapons left behind in Afghanistan? They were probably as new or newer than the ones they got from NATO and the EU, and you know the Taliban have to have a lot of respect for the Banderaites; birds of a feather and all that!

Reply to  abolition man
February 8, 2025 2:36 pm

Afghans never got heavy weapons. Their army was more like gendarmerie.

Leon de Boer
Reply to  Duker
February 9, 2025 7:58 pm

According to a 2022 Department of Defense report, 78 aircraft, 40,000 military vehicles and more than 300,000 weapons were among some of what was left behind.

They paraded just a small sample for you

Jeff Alberts
Reply to  Mark Whitney
February 8, 2025 6:50 pm

Ordnance.

Rick C
Reply to  Tom Halla
February 8, 2025 9:09 am

The company owners are Canadians. Wonder how much of that $160 M ended up in their accounts? Are they beyond the reach of US entities who might have claims of fraud?

Isn’t this the company that has recently had some of their buses catch fire? Any school that bought these things is headed for a major write-off.

February 8, 2025 6:16 am

DOGE will undoubtedly expose the fraud, waste and abuse as this article illustrates the misguided government interference in the marketplace, pushing products that people don’t want or if they want it only if someone else pays for it (virtue signaling) and a business model that cannot stand on its own without government distortions through subsidies. Lets hope in the next 4 years, this administration can put an end to this insanity.

Reply to  George T
February 8, 2025 7:30 am

I’m looking forward to DOGE looking into every penny the federal government spends.

I think that is what Trump has in mind, and that includes the military budget.

The military budget has failed seven audits over the last few years. There is something like $800 billion that nobody can account for.

The whole federal government needs a deep audit. That’s what Musk ought to call his AI-enhanced budget-searching software: DeepAudit. 🙂

Reply to  Tom Abbott
February 8, 2025 7:51 am

One can only hope that an audit of the Federal Reserve is included in that accounting. None of the other graft would be possible without that magic show.

Reply to  Mark Whitney
February 8, 2025 2:37 pm

How did that audit of the previous Arizona election results turn out.

Bob Rogers
Reply to  Mark Whitney
February 9, 2025 4:33 pm

The Federal Reserve creates money at will. What would an audit turn up?

Reply to  Bob Rogers
February 10, 2025 3:53 am

Just how much it creates and where it goes, for instance, how much M3 currency is transferred to foreign banks to bail them out. Ron Paul has long sought to impose an audit, yet the Neo-Cons and Democrats have steadfastly resisted it, as has the Bank itself. One can only wonder why they refuse transparency. I suspect the result would be sobering, if not particularly shocking in its depth of corruption revealed.

Derg
Reply to  Tom Abbott
February 8, 2025 11:28 am

Big Ballz to the rescue

KevinM
Reply to  George T
February 8, 2025 10:52 am

undoubtedly“?

February 8, 2025 6:45 am

4 Electric Buses Burn Overnight: Lion Electric Demands Videos Removal

Scissor
Reply to  Right-Handed Shark
February 8, 2025 7:47 am

Seems weird that they would fight that battle as they’re already cooked.

KevinM
Reply to  Scissor
February 8, 2025 10:53 am

billable hours

February 8, 2025 6:49 am

Lion Electric on BRINK of bankruptcy | MGUY EV News – 8 February 2025

Lion Electric, whose school buses have been in the news recently for all the wrong (toasty) reasons, is on the edge of the bankruptcy abyss, plus other EV and Net Zero madness from around the world.

vboring
February 8, 2025 6:58 am

How in the world could anyone lose money selling $350,000 school buses?

Diesel buses are closer to $100k each.

The electric bits are about the same as what you get in a Silverado EV (~200kWh battery, motors, bus would need a different transmission ratio):- which have a $55k MSRP.

$100k minus diesel engine and transmission plus $55k is a lot less than $350k.

Where did the money go?

abolition man
Reply to  vboring
February 8, 2025 7:07 am

Hopefully that will be new FBI Director Kash Patel’s job! I wonder how much claw back of the money thrown out in the dying gasps of the Biden Puppet Regime will occur? If enough e-mails and texts are preserved there could be RICO violations, too! Such delicious popcorn!

Scissor
Reply to  vboring
February 8, 2025 7:54 am

I’m guessing some flowers were purchased for Chelsea Clinton’s $3 million wedding.

Reply to  Scissor
February 8, 2025 9:31 am
Scissor
Reply to  ToldYouSo
February 8, 2025 10:20 am

Snopes is known for lying literally. It’s the way politicians use precise and exact word meanings to get away with shit. It’s safe and effective.

“Not a dime was spent by taxpayers on that.” (Turns out it was millions).

Anyway, let’s wait and see if Musk can figure out how some of our public servants become multimillionaires on their pathetic salaries.

Reply to  Scissor
February 8, 2025 10:26 am

“Snopes is known for lying literally.”

Duhhhhh . . . got any credible reference to support that claim?

“Credible reference” would of course imply one that uses “precise and exact word meanings”. Hmmmm . . .

Scissor
Reply to  ToldYouSo
February 8, 2025 10:59 am

It is acknowledged in legal proceedings that fact checkers, like Snopes, issue opinions and not necessarily verification of fact. In that sense, they are just part of the propaganda industrial complex.

So-called legacy media “fact-checkers” are rarely independent and more often exist to defend the left-wing regime in Washington.” Mike Howell at the Daily Signal.

Reply to  Scissor
February 8, 2025 11:22 am

Mike Howell at the Daily Signal?

Still waiting on that one credible reference for your spurious claim . . .

Editor
Reply to  ToldYouSo
February 8, 2025 12:48 pm

“Fact check websites like Snopes and Politifact reveal their bias in numerous ways.”
https://www.allsides.com/media-bias/fact-check-bias-chart

Reply to  Mike Jonas
February 8, 2025 1:46 pm

Is having bias the same as lying?

Is allsides.com a credible reference, or do they too exhibit bias?

Reply to  ToldYouSo
February 8, 2025 3:49 pm

My favorite fact check was
Haitian migrants are not eating family pets, feral cats are not family pets.

Gregg Eshelman
Reply to  Thomas Finegan
February 9, 2025 1:01 am

If they eat a family pet, it automatically changes status from pet to feral.

Derg
Reply to  ToldYouSo
February 8, 2025 11:31 am

Russia Colluuuusion and Safe and Effective come to mind

Reply to  Derg
February 8, 2025 1:48 pm

Hmmmm . . . I can’t seem to locate the reference websites or publications of either. Might either or both be lies?

Derg
Reply to  ToldYouSo
February 8, 2025 4:47 pm

We agree Russia colluuuusion and Safe and Effective are lies.

Reply to  Derg
February 9, 2025 9:10 am

Who is the “we” in your comment?

Reference Scissor’s comment above:
“It’s the way politicians use precise and exact word meanings to get away with shit. It’s safe and effective.”

Walter Sobchak
Reply to  Scissor
February 8, 2025 10:14 am

That was 15 years ago.

Scissor
Reply to  Walter Sobchak
February 8, 2025 11:10 am

My rhetoric, like my satire, is sometimes not appreciated.

The point is that taxpayer funding of government is used to enrich politicians and officials, whether through campaign contributions, or funding for their foundations, or placement of family members on boards, etc.

abolition man
Reply to  Scissor
February 8, 2025 12:38 pm

Scissor,
Your rhetoric, humor and satire are always appreciated in these parts; TolDyouSo, not so much! I guess ol’ TDySo is just another example proving that low fat, low protein diets can cause serious mental deficiencies; and Trump Derangement Syndrome is clearly in his screen name!

Reply to  abolition man
February 8, 2025 1:50 pm

“. . . I guess ol’ TDySo is just another example proving that” (blah, blah, blah)

You’re right: you are guessing.

antigtiff
February 8, 2025 7:01 am

Need to include the whole debacle – the U S Postal Service EVs may be a bigger crime.

Beta Blocker
Reply to  antigtiff
February 8, 2025 8:25 am

My postman drives an old USPS van which up to this point has been slated to be replaced by an EV equivalent. He tells me that almost no one in the local USPS field workforce in our area believes that an EV van can replace an ICE van one-for-one for the long mail routes these postmen service. In our area, two EV vans must be purchased to keep one operable and available during normal daylight hours.

Reply to  Beta Blocker
February 8, 2025 9:40 am

So will your post office have its own charging station? What about every other PO, are they all planning on only EVs? At least up to the new administration. I wasn’t aware of this.

KevinM
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
February 8, 2025 10:58 am

That’s how support can be won – employee EV charges while employee parks LLV (Long Life Vehicle) around corner from bar.

KevinM
Reply to  antigtiff
February 8, 2025 10:56 am

U S Postal Service EVs would be the perfect testing ground if not for…
Private sector brown trucks tried a number of gimicks – how’d it go?

Gregg Eshelman
Reply to  KevinM
February 9, 2025 1:21 am

UPS was testing some hydraulic hybrid drivetrains in Package Cars.

That concept has been around since the 1970’s.

In series hybrid form an engine runs a hydraulic pump to push fluid into a tank, compressing the air in the tank. To drive the vehicle, a valve is opened to let the pressurized fluid flow through a hydraulic motor then to an accumulator tank where the engine driven pump shoves it back into the pressure tank. The engine runs at a constant, most efficient, RPM. Using dual pressure tanks should work better, with one tank being pumped up while the other is supplying high pressure fluid to the motor. Automatic valves to switch the inputs and outputs would be needed.

In parallel hybrid form there’s a pump/motor somewhere in the drivetrain, switchable between pump, motor, and idle modes. When the pressure tank is low, it’s in pump mode to push fluid into the tank. At full pressure the valves close and the pump switches to idle mode with fluid running directly between its outlet and inlet so there’s next to zero drag. When an acceleration boost is needed, the tank valve is opened and the pump operates as a motor. There’s an accumulator tank to collect the fluid after passing through the motor. Any time the brake pedal is pushed, it switches to pump mode to push fluid back into the pressure tank. Accelerate, depending on the programmed parameters, it will continue running in motor mode until the pressure is depleted or switch to pump mode to re-pressurize to be ready for the next off the line boost. Ideally, the system should have throttle by wire to balance engine output with the hydraulic motor boost.

How does 75 MPG sound? 0-60 MPH in 8 seconds? Steady state cruising at 70 MPH with higher speed bursts? This modified VW Bug with a fiberglass Bradley GT body could do that in 1978. https://www.motherearthnews.com/sustainable-living/green-transportation/hydraulic-drive-train-zmaz78mazjma/

The Bradley GT II body would’ve been a slicker choice, but the GT body was donated so they ran what they had.

There’s an earlier article in that magazine about another hydraulic hybrid car with similar performance. But the feds weren’t interested. Their money was exclusively for electric cars. No hybrids of any sort or any other modified internal combustion drivetrains or alternative fuels.

Nevermind that with commercial R&D and application of the electronic technology of the day for controlling valves, monitoring pressures etc, long range, good speed, good acceleration, and very good fuel economy the hydraulic hybrids could easily have stomped all of the lead-acid battery electric vehicles of the time, while being a heck of a lot lighter and safer.

Loren Wilson
Reply to  Gregg Eshelman
February 9, 2025 5:53 am

I am skeptical of their claims. A lot of heat is generated while pumping all these fluids and compressing the gas. That is all lost energy to entropy. Plus you have two large pressure vessels to haul around. Much too complicated to be that efficient.

Denis
February 8, 2025 7:06 am

One thing is sure. The Lion Electric CEO, Mark Benard, received his full salary and compensation of $1.65M per year throughout.

Reply to  Denis
February 8, 2025 9:41 am

Amazing, a company goes broke and the top guys walk away with millions.

Godelian
February 8, 2025 7:13 am

Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action.
Ian Fleming

We are way beyond 3. The odor is strong and growing stronger.

Reply to  Godelian
February 8, 2025 11:57 am

Green tech was always a boondoggle

abolition man
Reply to  Godelian
February 8, 2025 12:40 pm

That is the smell of GangGreen spreading through the body politic; but maybe Elon has a scalpel!

Jeff Alberts
Reply to  abolition man
February 8, 2025 6:57 pm

Amputation is the only cure.

Rick Wedel
February 8, 2025 7:21 am

Thanks. Now do a story on the foreign EV battery plants in Canada, heavily subsidized by the Liberals, which are all out of business or soon to be.

Reply to  Rick Wedel
February 8, 2025 7:33 am

No point making the batteries if you can’t sell the vehicles.🤷‍♂️Sad they were using my tax money.😠 I could have told them it wouldn’t work before they started.

February 8, 2025 7:34 am

Don’t forget the EV company, Canoo. They also declared bankruptcy recently.

The wheels are coming off this Net Zero delusion.

Scissor
Reply to  Tom Abbott
February 8, 2025 8:04 am

Canoo stock issued at the equivalent of almost $5K/share in early 2020 and reached over $9K later in that year. It closed at 11 cents yesterday.

antigtiff
February 8, 2025 8:01 am

DUUUUUUUH…..I would buy the IC vehicle minus the IC engine and drivetrain and add a battery pack and electric motor. It would still probably cost 25% more and carry less cargo. It would be much heavier and require more expensive tires and brakes.

Scissor
Reply to  antigtiff
February 8, 2025 8:10 am

Throw in 10% for the Big Guy and USAID would get you a $billion in funding, last year.

technically right
February 8, 2025 8:18 am

First of all, those school officials ought to thank their lucky stars that they won’t be saddled with those worthless yellow turds for the next 10 years. Secondly, it’s about time some folks get to wear orange jumpsuits for their criminality in these matters. The advent of AG Bondi has raised my expectations in this regard.

Scissor
Reply to  technically right
February 8, 2025 3:48 pm

You’re right, and I’m hopeful. They have their work is cut out for them.
 
@MarioNawfal
CONGRESS FUNNELED $516 BILLION INTO EXPIRED PROGRAMS WITH ZERO OVERSIGHT IN 2024 The CBO just revealed that Congress spent $516 billion in 2024 on programs with expired authorizations, some dating back over 40 years. Despite rules against funding unauthorized programs, lawmakers ignored them—letting billions flow without updated approvals or oversight. Even worse, 251 more authorizations are set to expire this year, including $892 billion in defense spending, yet Congress keeps writing blank checks. This isn’t governance—it’s corruption. Congress is recklessly burning taxpayer money on programs they haven’t even bothered to approve. Source: CBO

Walter Sobchak
February 8, 2025 8:24 am

I have observed tat the larger a vehicle is the more it is unsuitable for batter power because the weight and cost of the batteries goes up faster than the carrying capacity of the vehicle.

The best size, utility, cost case for a BEV is in the Kei/Smart car size, i.e. golf carts. Pick up trucks and SUVs become astronomically expensive, incredibly heavy, and impossible to recharge in less than a day. Buses and Semis are just insane.

Some of the woollier green moonbats have even proposed battery powered railroad locomotives.

We can electrify busses, heavy trucks, and railroad trains. But, only by using overhead trolley wires.

I would hope that one of our compatriots with engineering expertise could turn this observation into a mathematical model.

rovingbroker
February 8, 2025 8:38 am

The difference this time? Lee Zeldin and House Republicans aren’t letting Biden off the hook.

What hook is it that Biden isn’t being let off of? Is he forfeiting his pension and Medicare and social security? Nah. He’s home free.

Scissor
Reply to  rovingbroker
February 8, 2025 9:22 am

It seems that Biden did not pardon himself. His get out of free card could be his mental incompetence, the evidence of which we were told were “cheap fakes.”

Reply to  rovingbroker
February 8, 2025 3:56 pm

Democrats are the only people who would sink so low as jailing a former president.

February 8, 2025 9:12 am

STORY TIP
‘We left pieces of our life behind’: Indigenous group flees drowning islandHis community, living on the tiny low-lying island of Gardi Sugdub, is the first in Panama to be relocated because of climate change.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz0lg9pedz1o

Is this rising sea levels or something else? I’m totally ignorant about the Gulf Of Guna Yala.

Scissor
Reply to  Ben Vorlich
February 8, 2025 9:24 am

Looks like a safe place to build a house.

Derg
Reply to  Scissor
February 8, 2025 11:35 am

You are on a roll today…well done!

Scissor
Reply to  Derg
February 8, 2025 3:56 pm

That’s one + vote from me. Cheers

Jeff Alberts
Reply to  Derg
February 8, 2025 9:33 pm

Rolling with scissors is bad, mkay.

Idle Eric
Reply to  Ben Vorlich
February 8, 2025 9:31 am

In June last year, most of the residents abandoned this cramped jumble of wooden and tin homes for rows of neat prefabricated houses on the mainland.

Looks to me like a rational decision by the residents, and a political decision by an AGW believer.

February 8, 2025 9:18 am

AFAIK, ex-President Joe Biden did not pardon himself for all crimes he committed—or in that gobblyspeak oxymoron “may have committed”— since 2014 or so, before he left office.

Time for a revamped US DOJ to act upon this fact and call for prosecution of Biden for misfeasance and malfeasance of office.

And, no, I don’t buy into the SCOTUS ruling that a President cannot be held guilty of crimes while he/she is performing “duties” as President . . . be glad to hear anyone defend the position, for example, that this ruling excuses a President who may order the murder of any US citizen for any “official” reason he choses.

Reply to  ToldYouSo
February 8, 2025 9:45 am

What if that citizen is working for an enemy?

Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
February 8, 2025 11:19 am

Well, there are “enemies” and then there are “enemies”. Care to be more specific?

And what do you mean by “working for”? The are numerous US citizens inside US borders being lawfully employed by foreign nations . . . so what?

BTW, treason is indeed punishable by death in the US. But it is supposed to end that way under the normal “rule of law” and a jury trial of peers resulting in a guilty verdict, and after passing through all legal appeals available to the convicted person. The last time a traitor was executed for treason in the United States was in 1949 (Nazi sympathizer Herbert Burgman).

Walter Sobchak
Reply to  ToldYouSo
February 8, 2025 10:16 am

Did you read the opinion?

Reply to  Walter Sobchak
February 8, 2025 11:02 am

Yes, but apparently you haven’t yet. Here, from the very first page under “Held:”

“Under our constitutional structure of separated powers, the nature
of Presidential power entitles a former President to absolute immunity
from criminal prosecution for actions within his conclusive and preclusive constitutional authority. And he is entitled to at least presumptive immunity from prosecution for all his official acts. There is no immunity for unofficial acts”. 

(full text of relevant SCOTUS ruling available at https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/23-939_e2pg.pdf )

Now, per the US Constitution, Article II, Section 1, Clause 8 “Presidential Oath of Office”:
“Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:– I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”
(reference: https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/article-2/section-1/clause-8/ )

So, all a President has to claim, in my example scenario of him/her ordering the murder of a US citizen, is that he/she judged such to be a necessary action for executing his/her responsibilities to “preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.

And if you try to cite the Constitution’s 14th Amendment prohibiting depriving a person of life, a careful read of its wording:
“All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.”
shows that (a) there is clear distinguishing of “the United States” from a “State”, and (b) the exact wording is that “nor shall any State deprive any person of life”, which thus does not prohibit the United States (interpreted here to be the US federal government) from taking the life of a person or persons.
(reference: https://www.archives.gov/milestone-documents/14th-amendment ).

Surprised?

Next question.

Reply to  ToldYouSo
February 8, 2025 11:10 am

“And, no, I don’t buy into the SCOTUS ruling that a President cannot be held guilty of crimes while he/she is performing “duties” as President . . . be glad to hear anyone defend the position, for example, that this ruling excuses a President who may order the murder of any US citizen for any “official” reason he choses.”

The ruling doesn’t allow the president to get away with murder or any other crime.

The ruling is the president can’t be sued for carrying out his official duties.

The president’s official duties do not include cold-blooded murder, or any other category of crime.

Reply to  Tom Abbott
February 8, 2025 11:38 am

“The ruling doesn’t allow the president to get away with murder or any other crime.”

I have no idea what your phrase “to get away with” means . . . would that be without public revelation of such, without undergoing a trial in a court of law, without a legal finding of guilt, without any personal/ethical feelings of guilty, etc.?

Also see my lengthy response to Walter Sobchak above.

What is it about the SCOTUS ruling phrase “entitles a former President to absolute immunity from criminal prosecution for actions within his conclusive and preclusive constitutional authority” (my bold emhasis added) that you don’t get? It doesn’t saying anything directly about the filings of lawsuits, but certainly implies such will likely be thrown out given the wide latitude of “justifications” available to a President for any of his actions.

Reply to  ToldYouSo
February 9, 2025 4:21 am

“I have no idea what your phrase “to get away with” means . . . would that be . . . .without undergoing a trial in a court of law”

Yeah, that one.

“within his conclusive and preclusive constitutional authority” ”

You should have bolded this part.

Murder and other crimes are not included in his constitutional authority. If he commits a crime outside his constitutional authority, he can be prosecuted for it.

Reply to  Tom Abbott
February 9, 2025 8:36 am

Gotta love that selective reading, right Tom?

Reply to  Tom Abbott
February 9, 2025 9:50 am

OK . . . please specify where in the US Constitution there is a specific prohibition against sitting President committing/ordering murder at his sole discretion?

Even dissenting members of SCOTUS have acknowledged this failing in their recent ruling, per these extracts from the article “Did the Supreme Court really just give U.S. presidents the power to assassinate opponents?” (ref: https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/scotus-seal-team-six-analogy-analysis-1.7256053 ) my bold emphasis added below:

“In their dissent in the historic presidential immunity case, Trump v. United States, the court’s minority claimed the decision did more — much more — than just help the former U.S. president potentially escape his most serious legal predicament. It imperilled American democracy, they argued. 

“Justice Sonia Sotomayor wrote in her dissent, signed by two colleagues:
‘[Let’s say he] orders the Navy’s Seal Team Six to assassinate a political rival? Immune. Organizes a military coup to hold onto power? Immune. Takes a bribe in exchange for a pardon?  Immune. Immune, immune, immune’.

“The court’s majority opinion dismissed her writing as hyperbolic. But it never specifically denied the charge; in fact, the majority ruling was strangely muted on such an explosive allegation, one which calls into question the future of the republic.

“Legal analysts seem split. Some, but not all, accuse Sotomayor of exaggerating. The outlet Politico quotes constitutional lawyers arguing the ruling did, in fact, potentially give the president dictatorial powers. 

“So what to believe here? Did the court actually provide a licence to kill, in other words, allowing a violent dictatorship?

Yes, if you read it at face value
Strictly read, on its face, is this what [the opinion] would permit? The answer is yes,’ said Harold Hongju Koh, a Yale Law School professor who teaches national-security law and was legal adviser to the State Department during the Obama years. ‘The way this opinion is worded, it’s broad enough to cover the most outrageous set of facts. So Justice Sotomayor was not being hyperbolic.’ “

Leon de Boer
Reply to  ToldYouSo
February 9, 2025 8:06 pm

Wasn’t the ruling that the president is immune but the check on his power is he can be impeached? So if he did murder someone how does he not get impeached other than try to strong arm all sitting members?

Loren Wilson
Reply to  ToldYouSo
February 9, 2025 6:00 am

Note that the Chief Justice in this opinion dismissed your concerns.

Reply to  Loren Wilson
February 9, 2025 10:04 am

No, not only did Chief Justice Roberts not specifically address my hypothetical scenario of a US President ordering the murder of a US citizen (based on the President’s exclusive reasoning that such was necessary to carry out his assigned responsibilities to ““preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States”), he also represents only 1/9th of SCOTUS when voting, and the particular ruling did not receive an unanimous vote.

IOW, there is nothing to note . . . other than this highly defective SCOTUS ruling that the President is given extremely broad immunity from crimial acts while in office.

Editor
Reply to  Tom Abbott
February 8, 2025 12:56 pm

The Joe Biden administration’s legal pursuit of Donald Trump is an example of the banana state corruption that the US constitution sought to avoid.

Reply to  Mike Jonas
February 9, 2025 4:29 am

This is about as close to One Party rule as the United States has ever come.

One Party Rule = Dictatorship

Trump needs to destroy the Deep State, or the Deep State is going to destroy the rest of us.

The Deep State almost managed to steal our freedoms, but the American voter turned them aside. We need to keep it that way. We need to explain to the people, the danger the radical Democrats pose to our freedoms.

At the present time, a majority of voters voted for the United States to take a different direction from the one the radical Democrats were taking us.

But we still have a lot of teaching to do because about 72 million voters voted for the radical Democrats last time. That’s a lot of delusional people who need a reality check.

Scissor
Reply to  ToldYouSo
February 8, 2025 11:21 am

Yeah, it seems like the principles and practices of clemency should be tightened up also.

terry
February 8, 2025 9:35 am

I’ve always wondered about the wisdom of a vehicle full of lithium ion batteries and kids.

Bryan A
February 8, 2025 9:45 am

Sooo, what was the outcome of the $160M expenditure or the $301M overall that the company Vanity shed from existence?
There’s a building!
Is it a floor walls and roof only?
Is it outfitted with the equipment necessary to produce busses?
Were any of the monies spent on anything tangible that remains?
Or was it simply disappeared into the pockets of the players … and the Democrat re-election coffers?

Did “The Big Guy” get his 10%?

Bryan A
Reply to  Bryan A
February 8, 2025 6:29 pm

So long as all the facilities are in place they could still make busses with nice reliable Diesel Engines

Bryan A
Reply to  Bryan A
February 8, 2025 8:36 pm

And make 6 times as many for the same price

KevinM
February 8, 2025 10:17 am

“$95 million worth of promised buses”
Humorous word usage… worth?

Ancient Wrench
February 8, 2025 10:36 am

The question becomes – Who profited from building that now-empty factory and who might swoop in to acquire it on the cheap?

February 8, 2025 11:47 am

Go woke, go broke

Coeur de Lion
February 8, 2025 12:40 pm

what due diligence from the lender with all that taxpayer money ? Will he she end up in prison?

young bill
February 8, 2025 1:48 pm

Good article but was the photo of Cackles really necessary? I’m trying to forget she existed.

Edward Katz
February 8, 2025 2:33 pm

As usual, there was no well-established evidence that such buses would prove superior to gas/diesel types regarding costs and reliability. But they were part of the fantasy world of a supposed major green transition, and what better way to advertise this than through the schools so that students, parents and taxpayers would be made aware of what such a future would look like. So they got a sobering preview: undependable, expensive, and just a con-job, like most environmental pipe dreams.

February 8, 2025 2:33 pm

Trump was conned by Foxconn in Wisconsin. Bold claims of a new plant never happened.
Watch this space in 4 years when all Trumps swamp is drained

Reply to  Duker
February 8, 2025 2:53 pm

Dream on chum.

Bryan A
Reply to  Graemethecat
February 8, 2025 8:38 pm

At least that swamp is fast becoming Non Bidenary

Bryan A
Reply to  Duker
February 8, 2025 3:34 pm

I believe it’s Biden’s swamp that’s currently being drained. In 4 years we might see the bottom of that swamp. Something tells me that once the USAID SCUM is scraped from the surface the really nasty swamp critters will poke their noses out.

They’ve already begun like the Critter Mob outside the DOE earlier..