From NOT A LOT OF PEOPLE KNOW THAT
By Paul Homewood
ANCHORAGE, Alaska (AP) — A large cargo ship with a fire in its hold is being kept 2 miles (3.22 kilometers) offshore of an Alaska port as a precaution while efforts are undertaken to extinguish the flames, the U.S. Coast Guard said Saturday.
There were no injuries to the 19 crew members aboard the Genius Star XI, which was carrying a load of lithium-ion batteries across the Pacific Ocean, from Vietnam to San Diego, the guard’s Alaska district said in a release.
The fire started on Christmas Day in cargo hold No. 1, a spokesperson for ship owner Wisdom Marine Group said in a statement. The crew released carbon dioxide into the hold and sealed it over concerns of an explosion.
Ship’s personnel alerted the Coast Guard early Thursday morning about the fire. The Coast Guard said it diverted the 410-foot (125-meter) cargo ship to Dutch Harbor, one of the nation’s busiest fishing ports located in Unalaska, an Aleutian Islands community about 800 miles (1,287 kilometers) southwest of Anchorage.
Chemically, batteries are like explosives in that both parts of a chemical reaction are contained together. So the more energy one can get from a battery, the more dangerous they are when they fail.
And if left to burn will consume every battery within heat proximity until no more fuel remains (no battery remains)
“Chemically, batteries are like explosives”
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Lead acid batteries don’t become uncontrollable fires as far as I know.
Large lead acid batteries, as on old diesel electric submarines, will outgas hydrogen, which then either catches fire or explodes.
G’Day Tom,
“…or explodes.”
A 105 A/h Deep Cycle RV battery. Trailer was parked on a fenced vacant lot. The largest part of the top, about 3″ x 4″, was 42 feet away. It happens.
More than 65 years ago I took a 100ft Extension cord, soldered a cord from a broken toaster onto the Positive and Negative end of “D” Cell flashlight battery. After making sure the Extension cord was unplugged I would plug the cord into the extension cord, go back to the house plug in the extension cord and BANG! ! ! Much Louder than the very expensive M-80 Fire crackers. Would not have blown a hole in the side of a car but I did put them in an empty can and the explosion destroyed the can. When I ran out of dead batteries I used the Metal Electrolytic Capacitors from old radios I found in the trash/dump. Same result. Only problem was that occasionally I had to replace the fuse in the Fuse box.
Did not try old Lead Acid Batteries. Probably would not have ended up very well.
Applying 110/220 AC to an electrolytic capacitor produces explosive results. Don’t ask.
All lead acid batteries produce hydrogen gas as they either charge or discharge. An unsealed battery will release hydrogen gas to the atmosphere. The rate of hydrogen production depends upon the rate of charging or discharging. If constrained from free diffusion in an unsealed, or defective battery, hydrogen can build into enough concentration that, with an ignition source, it can explode.
Modern automobile lead-acid batteries are sealed so they cannot run out of water, thus cannot put hydrogen into the atmosphere.. That doesn’t say a defective battery might still not produce a fire.
Lithiun -ion batteries always contain a potentially explosive mixture inside themselves.That can be ignited by high temperature or a spark.
Quick, someone post that idiotic “oh the humanity” thumbnail again.
…or, most of the time, dissipates through vents or is absorbed into media for later discharge, as designed. Nuclear submarines use lead acid batteries, too, and use some of the same design features and procedures as modern diesel subs to minimize the hazard from ignition of hydrogen.
Lithium batteries have a problem because the design combines the potential for both hydrocarbon and metal fires in an unstable configuration in order to maximise mass/energy potential. This is a design flaw. Those hazards could be mitigated or avoided, but at the cost of increased mass and volume per charge.
I was discussing the failure mode of batteries. Obviously, most batteries do not catch fire a large percentage of the time. But when they do, . . .
” Nuclear submarines use lead acid batteries, too, and use some of the same design features and procedures as modern diesel subs to minimize the hazard from ignition of hydrogen.”
Yes. That’s why there is a meter on the EPCP to allow the EO to monitor hydrogen % while charging the battery .
😉
Plus large ventilation capacity. I once had to fix that hydrogen sensor on USS Cavalla.
The problem with Lead Acid (LA) batteries, if its a problem at all, is that they are usually designed to have very low internal resistance.
(As Li-Ions also have in fact and why they’re useful for powering cars)
The hazard presented by LAs is when and by whatever means, they ever become short circuited.
e.g.By a careless engineer in a workshop dropping a spanner/wrench onto one .
Or by using connecting leads (e.g.) Jump starting leads that are not phat enough)
The current that even a very modest little LA can instantaneously dump can be truly immense, looking at 1,000+ Amps easily
It is that current flowing through the battery that does the damage.
In the first few seconds it very violently boils away the acid then the plates inside all start warping and melting, creating a near perfect internal short circuit.
The current then ramps up to 10,000+ Amps and the whole battery just detonates.
The batteries themselves are rubber/plastic so don’t create very much of a ‘bomb’ but if the battery is inside a confined space (engine compartment of a car), the car itself becomes the bomb.
NEVER take a Lead Acid battery for granted and always treat them with all the greatest respect you can muster.
With Li-ions they ‘get hot’, smoke a bit and smoulder.
i.e. You get time to run away or park your ship somewhere safe.
With a LA battery fail, you’ve got less than 5 seconds and that (initial) cloud of exploding Sulphuric Acid will catch you no matter how fast you can run
Chemically, batteries are like explosives in that both parts of a chemical reaction are contained together. So the more energy one can get from a battery, the more dangerous they are when they fail.
Sorta like playing hearts when you hold the queen of spades and the ace of hearts but also get rid of all of your clubs. And precariously walk a thin line to either burn in hell or shoot the moon!
Over a decade ago, specs for Li2CO3 (lithium carbonate) and LiOH•H2O (lithium hydroxide monohydrate), the two lithium compounds used in making batteries were 99.5 purity. After the first laptop fire on board a flight, extensive studies were done and chemical specs for the Li compounds were tightened up, particularly the allowable levels of transition elements (Mn, Fe, …) and overall purities, 99.9+. Japan and Korea stopped buying the chemicals from China (leading to their improvement there) and opened the door for other suppliers.
Li-battery fires are spectacular, but with billions of Li-powered devices, fire occurrences are comparatively rare, but there is room for improvement.
Li-iron-phosphate cathodes with graphite anodes were least problematic and gained in popularity. In these, lithium ions are released from the cathode in use and returned to the cathode during charging. This makes for more controlled management of the electrolyte.
Mechanical damage to the battery remains a problem leading to fires. Although not an expert in batteries per se, it stands to reason that making large batteries out of thousands of interconnected small (AA size) batteries, multiplies the possibility of defective small battery units. Although, Tesla explains that with their system of battery management,
that using small battery units is a safety
feature. This is not a true upscaling of the technology.
Possibly a true upscaling with precise control of the electrolyte separately in a new configuration in with a distribution system driven by demand for power as needed as in a modern ICE fuel injection system. The present system is like having an ICE engine in your gas tank.
Perhaps their transportation should be restricted to private jets, particularly those carrying leftists.
Customer Greta Thunberg to the Service Desk, please, the new battery for your BYD Seagull will be here shortly, as soon as they get the fire extinguished on the cargo ship carrying it. Meanwhile, if you would like to pay in advance, it will be $28,500 plus tax and labor.
There should be a Battery Fire Reference Page here at WUWT
There is one, I think, already up and running; WUWT could add a link to it though. All I can find is the Tesla fire site listing just the Tesla incidents.
Excellent idea.
Happy New Year to all the critical thinkers at WUWT!
What could be better than the destructive fantasies of GangGreen going up in smoke like an out-of-control lithium battery fire! If only the Lame Stream Media would report honestly on Nut Zero and the other harmful aspects of the Green agenda like Ruinable, non-renewable Energy! Just a few days of honest reporting would kill off this incredibly harmful and wasteful hoax forever, and humanity could return to increasing our freedom and prosperity while working to get up out of the gravity well!
NEWS TIP
https://petersweden.substack.com/p/truth-about-dutch-farmers-protest
and German farmers protest ….
hard to find honest reporting on some things ….
Sooner or later the insurance industry has to put a stop to all this nonsense
NEVER! Its the source of increased reveues from us saps.
Why should they?
Take the cost of insuring a car. The insurance companies will simply up the premiums of all drivers to spread the risk.
ICE drivers will be paying more to cover the cost of the EV drivers the same as the insured pay more to cover the cost of uninsured drivers.
At leat one British insurance company has stopped insuring electric cars due to the great cost of repairing them. It would not surprise me to see others following suit.
I didn’t know that.
So now we have uninsured drivers in incendiary devices lol
had a mate say with straight face
climate change is real because the insurers say so
the fact they like it cos higher premiums escapes her to this day
Yep, and I am sure BBC’s Panorama programme is exploring this issue as we write!
CO2, the planet-killing gas apparently has one good use, slightly mitigating planet-killing fires caused by planet-saving batteries.
I can see it now: PotentialBabylonBeeHeadline™ — “Enviros Decry Calls for Increased CO2 Production Needed To Extinguish Growing Numbers of EV Fires”
The only problem is that the battery doesn’t require air to burn, so CO2 displacing oxygen has had no effect.
I hate to predict something this horrific, but eventually there will be a mass casualty event with a pile-up of burning EVs or buses in a tunnel or something. Not only is the fire unquenchable but the smoke is toxic.
Then maybe the Li ion battery in passenger vehicles will become a target of derision like the idea of using hydrogen for buoyancy in an airship.
218 Tesla battery incidents with 80 fatalities is a pretty horrific statistic in its own right but, because the fatalities were just a small number at a time, they can be overlooked by the media.
Sure. Just growing pains. We will work out the kinks.
“The only problem is that the battery doesn’t require air to burn”
Yep, that was my first thought… why did they think CO2 would help ?
Lithium battery fires require different firefighting techniques, says safety OEM – The Loadstar
Actually, lithium metal reduces the CO2, giving lithium oxide and CO or elemental carbon, depending on the stoichiometry.
CO…well, that sounds like fun in an enclosed space for the car/bus/ship/tunnel passengers!
We could use Carbon Capture technology to get the co2 to put out battery fires, its almost a closed loop.
When are they going to learn that those batteries and ANY electrolyte, such as salt water, cannot be allowed to make contact. Period!
never came near salt water
I’m curious as to why the ship is near Alaska. The batteries were shipped from Vietnam to San Diego.
Great circle route. After bypassing China, Japan and Kamchatka, they pass through the Gulf of Alaska.
And then it was diverted away from San Diego to Dutch Harbor, Alaska.
No, caught fire long before California coast . Dutch Harbour was merely the closest port As Shoki said -Great circle route is shortest distance by air or sea
“The ‘Genius Star XI’, en route from Vietnam to San Diego with 19 crew members on board, suffered a fire in the cargo hold, about 225 miles southwest of Dutch Harbor, on Dec 28, 2023, at around 04.40 a.m. The US Coast Guard dispatched an HC-130 aircraft from Kodiak and the CG Cutter ‘Alex Haley’to the area. The fire was contained, but continued to burn as the vessel made its way to the port at Dutch Harbor.”
Mercator projections are like NYT editorials, distorted and misleading.
Good point . At least mercator is consistent and logical NYT is a paper bag opinions, blow with the wind
The batteries sensed cold and entered their self-warming mode.
New York Times reports the crew was just having a New Years Eve party and some steaks caught on fire. Just a galley fire, nothing else to see here. The ship is only staying offshore because burning meat causes CO2 emissions and the ship would be fined if it came closer to the docks.
The Times has 51 ex-CIA employees who suspect this was a Russian plot to sabotage Nut Zero, which we all know is needed to save the planet from climate change. Which will also kill your dog. Nothing to see here. Batteries are safe. When was the last time your phone exploded? That’s proof batteries are safe.
So are the jabs
No, no – it happened on Christmas day so it was either the turkey or an over-enthusiastic pudding that caught alight.
“”an over-enthusiastic pudding
Curious: What was Andrew Dessler doing aboard that ship?
By using the ‘over-enthusiastic’ euphemism I, of course, meant ‘drenched in brandy’ – judging by the things he’s said, Dessler probably also enjoys an ‘over-enthusiastic’ time or two!
Just put a large hole in the bottom of the boat and they could flood the storage compartments. Wouldn’t put out the fire, but might cool the batteries enough to make it safe…
Aha, now The Titanic makes sense……
It’s too bad that sea water conducts electricity.
If I understand these posts correctly, flooding that ship hold with sea water would be instant dynamite to create a truly spectacular explosion of the whole ship. And if they cannot find a way to put out that fire, then that is what is about to happen. Wish we could rescue those 19 crew.
KiwiRail (New Zealand) has ordered two new Diesel hybrid electric ferries to run a roll on roll off service across Cook Straight. The new right leaning government won’t anti-up more money so they may not proceed but have not yet been cancelled as this will very expensive for nothing. Future disaster may have been averted (or not).
Only madmen would put batteries in ships that ply a notoriously bad piece of water. Unfortunately, green madmen are all we seem to have now.
Here’s a rather ironic story I ran across. The late Prof Goodenough, a previous chair in inorganic chemistry at Oxford University and the ‘father of the Lithium battery’, developed it in his laboratory and had to call the local fire brigade to deal with the very first ‘thermal runaway’ of a Lithium battery there. Apparently Prof Goodenough did wonder at the time if safety issues with Lithium might preclude the adoption of the battery!
Since it started on Christmas day how about a Christmas song?
Oh, the weather outside is frightful
But the fire is so delightful
And since we’ve no place to go
Let it burn! Let it burn! Let it burn!
Man it doesn’t show signs of stopping
And I brought me some corn for popping
The lights are turned way down low
Let it burn! Let it burn! Let it burn!
Wonderful!
Havila Krystruten a Norwegian shipping company has banned carrying EVs on its’ ships due to potential fire hazard.
well, all those transplanted sea otters are about to chill
Here’s something to add to the discussion:
https://www.greenenergytimes.org/2022/10/will-the-new-carbon-battery-technology-replace-lithium-for-energy-storage-next/
I used to have an off grid cabin in the woods in the UP of Michigan. I installed Spartan Carbon batteries when I replaced my LA batteries. They are very good for off grid applications since they can be discharged deeper without shortening the battery’s life.
That doesn’t look much like a “hold” that those flames are exiting.