Sydney Grid Fail: Australia’s Greenest Voters Plunged into Darkness

Essay by Eric Worrall

h/t Phil Salmon; Will nobody turn up the solar panels?

Entire Sydney suburbs plunged into darkness as more power outages loom

Suburbs around Sydney suffered power outages on Monday night, as officials warn more blackouts could be on their way.

Homes in Beacon Hill, Frenchs Forest, Narraweena, Cromer and Dee Why were all temporarily without power, Ausgrid said.

Queenslanders were warned they were at risk of a significant power disruption between 5.30pm to 8pm on Monday, but blackouts were avoided.

Meanwhile, NSW is on high alert from 7pm on Tuesday due to a predicted supply shortfall.

The power outages come as Federal Energy Minister Chris Bowen warns the system is “under pressure” and said households should ‘brace for a bumpy period ahead’.

“In terms of the immediate situation, it’s being very actively managed,” Bowen told Sunrise on Tuesday morning.

“We managed to avoid any load shedding or blackouts in Queensland last evening.

Read more: https://7news.com.au/technology/power-outage/entire-sydney-suburbs-plunged-into-darkness-as-more-power-outages-loom-c-7154237

The AEMO government regulator greensplained that the shortages are because greedy power plant operators refused to provide power at below cost.

Power companies accused of ‘unconscionable conduct’ as they withdraw from grid

By Mike Foley
June 14, 2022 — 3.43pm

Power generators are exploiting the chaotic energy market by withdrawing power supply from the electricity grid and waiting until strict rules to prevent blackouts kick in, forcing the energy market operator to direct them to fire their plants back up and triggering profitable compensation payments.

There’s no law stopping power companies from withdrawing their electricity generation from the market, and in the past two days they have reduced the volume available by 2 gigawatts in Victoria, 3 gigawatts in NSW and 1.5 gigawatts in Queensland.

The withdrawals were prompted by the Australian Energy Market Operator’s (AEMO) decision to put a cap on spiralling prices that electricity generators are charging for wholesale power, which crimped the profit margin of some generators, which are battling coal prices that are soaring because of sanctions on Russian exports.

But the electricity market is tightly regulated and AEMO has powers, designed to prevent blackouts, which enable it to force generators to fire up units and start supplying electricity to the grid. Whenever AEMO does this, companies are awarded compensation.

AEMO was unusually forthright in a public statement yesterday when it said that directly after price caps were imposed on power companies “available offers were reduced”.

A spokesperson for the Australian Energy Council, which represents major power generators including AGL, EnergyAustralia and Origin, said its members faced a “complex issue” but were seeking solutions to the power crunch.

The price cap unintentionally means that some plants can’t recover their fuel costs. Participants are legitimately seeking ways to resolve the problem,” the spokesperson said.

Read more: https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/politics/federal/power-companies-accused-of-unconscionable-conduct-as-they-withdraw-from-grid-20220614-p5ath9.html

If only there was a reliable, dispatchable 24×7 zero carbon energy source whose generators only required refuelling every couple of years, which Australia could refuel from our world class mineral resources, which could shield Australian consumers from volatile fuel prices, and maintain stable baseload during difficult circumstances.

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June 14, 2022 2:06 am

The penny is beggininng to drop, with molasses-like alacrity…

commieBob
Reply to  Leo Smith
June 14, 2022 4:10 am

Definition of the penny drops
British, informal
—used to say that someone finally understands something after not understanding it for a time
Merriam-Webster

That made me think of this:

It Is Difficult to Get a Man to Understand Something When His Salary Depends Upon His Not Understanding It

Well that’s not quite it. Most of the greenies aren’t driven by a financial incentive. As usual, quoteinvestigator.com comes to the rescue.

It is useless to argue with a man whose opinion is based upon a personal or pecuniary interest; the only way to deal with him is to outvote him.

William Jennings Bryan

The greenies can always muster up a ton of facts and logic. There are nearly infinite facts. You can always find a bunch to support any argument, no matter how crazy. That’s why conspiracy theories are hard to thwart.

Only when the voters start to feel real pain will the stupidity end. Even then, I’m not completely sure the greenies can’t turn the crisis to their own ends.

Bryan A
Reply to  commieBob
June 14, 2022 5:26 am

It Is Difficult to Get a Man to Understand Something When His Salary Depends Upon His Not Understanding It
A single alteration is all that’s required
It Is Difficult to Get a Man to Understand Something When His TENETS Depend Upon His Not Understanding It

Last edited 22 days ago by Bryan A
ColA
Reply to  Bryan A
June 14, 2022 4:23 pm

One could only wish that the grid could not organize for all the new ‘Teal’ electorates to celebrate their election and get turned off for the night!

H B
Reply to  ColA
June 14, 2022 5:27 pm

A week would be much better

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  Bryan A
June 17, 2022 12:34 pm

I’d say when his BELIEFS depend upon his not understanding it.

Once “invested” in the “Cause,” it’s difficult to cut through the emotion, politics, etc.

Frank from NoVA
Reply to  commieBob
June 14, 2022 7:33 am

William Jennings Bryan? Except for his aversion to foreign interventionism, he would have loved every other aspect of Team Biden.

Last edited 22 days ago by Frank from NoVA
commieBob
Reply to  Frank from NoVA
June 14, 2022 12:18 pm

Indeed. On the other hand, he’s described as a populist. So, not being an ideologue, there’s the chance he would have governed in a sensible manner, had he been elected.

Also, rather than cutting off our nose to spite our face, we have to give the devil his due. How many times have we seen the Democrats refuse to do something sensible just because Trump suggested it first?

Frank from NoVA
Reply to  commieBob
June 15, 2022 7:39 am

True. I guess it all depends on what’s ‘popular’ at any given time, e.g., ‘free stuff’ or ‘leave me alone’.

MarkW
Reply to  commieBob
June 14, 2022 8:24 am

Reading the press release gives a hint as to their future plans.
They are currently blaming the “greed” of the plant operators for the current problems.
The obvious solution, for them, will be to have the state seize the plants and so that they can be operated at a loss.

Jim Gorman
Reply to  MarkW
June 14, 2022 8:53 am

Those who don’t know history are doomed to repeat it. Example — Venezuela.

Duker
Reply to  MarkW
June 14, 2022 1:36 pm

No . There is a few gigawatts of generation that had been withdrawn because these ‘instructions’ to generate mean they get paid much more than the going rate

MarkW
Reply to  Duker
June 14, 2022 4:41 pm

You didn’t bother to read the article. The going rate is less than the cost of operating. So going for something above the going rate is the only way left to actually make money.

Duker
Reply to  MarkW
June 15, 2022 12:04 am

Basically true. But of course each generating site is different and some can make money at the peak rate and others cant
Its normally price is a fraction of $300 gWhr ( $30?)so raises questions about how expensive their costs really are.
Sure coal and gas prices have peaked , but thats spot prices, a power station will mostly have longer term contracts at lower rates. And they have income over the full year, a profit doesnt have to made every single hour of every day.

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  Duker
June 16, 2022 4:05 am

If you ran a business it wouldn’t be for long. But then again, Socialists don’t like business.

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  MarkW
June 17, 2022 12:37 pm

Oh don’t give them THAT “out,” they’ll be more than happy to rush in to “save the day” – at taxpayer expense, of course (once again).

Mike McMillan
Reply to  commieBob
June 14, 2022 9:02 am

“… the only way to deal with him is to outvote him.”

And we did outvote him for President, three times.

Rich Davis
Reply to  Mike McMillan
June 14, 2022 3:55 pm

Biden was only nominated once, so what are you saying exactly?

John Larson
Reply to  Rich Davis
June 14, 2022 6:49 pm

Biden was only nominated once, so what are you saying exactly?”

Maybe he’s saying he ran for President three times . . and not being nominated when running generally means someone else got more votes. (Just a wild hunch ; )

commieBob
Reply to  Mike McMillan
June 14, 2022 4:29 pm

OMG, you must be the world’s oldest person. 🙂

Enthalpy
June 14, 2022 2:11 am

Very unfortunate for those not enclosed in the bubble, but for the enthusiastic supporters of the climate agenda its a wonderful endorsement of a lovely bunch of teals.

TBeholder
Reply to  Enthalpy
June 14, 2022 6:15 am

Virtue signalling tend to suffer rapid shrinkage when there’s skin in the game, indeed.
But then, does it matter at this point?

Alan Robertson
Reply to  Enthalpy
June 14, 2022 8:08 am

cAn brely typer whilaughing at them so hard

michael hart
June 14, 2022 2:24 am

Nicely phrased last paragraph. You summed up nuclear power in a nutshell, without even using the word.

Oldseadog
Reply to  Eric Worrall
June 14, 2022 2:53 am

That is sexist, Eric, you have to say “them them” now.

H.R.
Reply to  Oldseadog
June 14, 2022 6:00 am

Xe Xe?

(Heck, I dunno nowadays, Oldseadog. I was just guessing there.)

Sweet Old Bob
Reply to  Oldseadog
June 14, 2022 6:16 am

(s)He (s)He !

😉

Last edited 22 days ago by Sweet Old Bob
H.R.
Reply to  Sweet Old Bob
June 14, 2022 7:48 am

What about the nonbinaries, Bob? Admit it. You’re just guessing, too. 😉

Bryan A
Reply to  H.R.
June 14, 2022 2:51 pm

Try …
Ha Ha
Ya Ya??

ozspeaksup
Reply to  H.R.
June 15, 2022 1:56 am

so is everyone else in that special needs bunch

Rich Davis
Reply to  Sweet Old Bob
June 14, 2022 3:59 pm

Oh gawd sob, you’re so out of date. (S)he implies binary as in there are only two genders. We must say they to allow for the other 55 genders.

Craig from Oz
Reply to  Sweet Old Bob
June 14, 2022 10:25 pm

AH-64 AH-64!

(are we still doing the Attack Helicopter joke? 😛 )

Richard Page
Reply to  Eric Worrall
June 14, 2022 10:26 am

Titter ye not!

william Johnston
Reply to  michael hart
June 14, 2022 6:18 am

If only!!!

HotScot
June 14, 2022 2:26 am

“We managed to avoid any load shedding or blackouts in Queensland last evening.”

That has to be the statement of the year.

The 21st Century and they can’t keep the lights on.

MarkW
Reply to  HotScot
June 14, 2022 8:26 am

They are so proud of achieving the bare minimum.

Bill
Reply to  MarkW
June 14, 2022 7:41 pm

Mediocrity is the foundation of government. If you want more mediocrity then vote for more government.

Duker
Reply to  HotScot
June 14, 2022 3:53 pm

Ask them in Texas about that .

The reality these days is that building over capacity for a few days a year isnt economically viable for public owned corporations.
They have no duty to you to provide un interrupted power.

Ive see every time I go to a supermarket the large diesel generator ‘just in case’, a multinational I worked for had considerable resources from motor generator, diesel generator and batteries to provide seamless power for their critical functions.

Indeed I can see the home batteries being useful in future not for the futile attempts to reduce the CO2 but to ensure that lights are on when grid supply isnt

MarkW
Reply to  Duker
June 14, 2022 4:46 pm

For some reason we have managed to provide power to the US for almost 100 years without frequent black outs.

Duker
Reply to  MarkW
June 15, 2022 12:09 am

Just not true. System wide black outs less common in last 20-30 years but have occurred previously when actual generation was still growing. they have been building capacity over decades for increasing market and can afford to make their money over the life of the asset.
The current system of intermittent , on an hourly basis, new generation wind is fools gold .

LdB
June 14, 2022 2:28 am

“Power companies accused of ‘unconscionable conduct’ as they withdraw from grid”

If it was a trade union on strike over pay and conditions then they would be heros to the lefty press.

It will take a couple of days of action before the regulator will get the message … in the meantime the companies will just keep relying on engineering reports saying it’s unsafe to operate and there is nothing the regulator can do. You can’t force a company to run generation unsafely.

Last edited 22 days ago by LdB
Reply to  LdB
June 14, 2022 2:37 am

I think you’re missing the point of the article. They say that it’s just a ploy to get compensation. You can’t get that if you’ve taken a sickie.

rbabcock
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 14, 2022 3:34 am

According to the article it appears if the energy producers did supply power, they would be doing it at a loss. Would you go to work for someone if it cost you more than you received in compensation? Australia has gone from being one of the lowest priced electricity markets in the world to one of the highest.. and now one of the most unreliable. My suggestion is to supplement windmills and solar farms with unicorns. That should solve the problem.

Reply to  rbabcock
June 14, 2022 3:45 am

Read it again
Power generators are exploiting the chaotic energy market by withdrawing power supply from the electricity grid and waiting until strict rules to prevent blackouts kick in, forcing the energy market operator to direct them to fire their plants back up and triggering profitable compensation payments.”

But the electricity market is tightly regulated and AEMO has powers, designed to prevent blackouts, which enable it to force generators to fire up units and start supplying electricity to the grid. Whenever AEMO does this, companies are awarded compensation.”
…not quoted here
“When there is a looming shortfall, AEMO is required to 
issue a notification, which it has been doing regularly 
due to the large volume of power being withheld. There 
are currently shortfall notices for Queensland, NSW, 
Victoria and South Australia, but AEMO said on Tuesday 
afternoon that about 2 gigawatts had been withheld in 
both Queensland and NSW and this could be directed to 
fire back up to supply the market, which would trigger 
compensation.”

Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 14, 2022 4:16 am

And you conveniently ignore:
The price cap unintentionally means that some plants can’t recover their fuel costs. Participants are legitimately seeking ways to resolve the problem,” the spokesperson said.

Seems like a legitimate reason to refuse to burn fuel unless forced to.

Last edited 22 days ago by kcrucible
Reply to  kcrucible
June 14, 2022 4:27 am

Well, Eric had it up in red bold. “The spokesperson” speaks for the generators. But the article is suggesting that they are looking for generous compensation, and will probably come out ahead.

Tom in Florida
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 14, 2022 5:13 am

As they should. I do not understand your objection to profit and your approval of losing money.

MarkW
Reply to  Tom in Florida
June 14, 2022 8:30 am

Like most leftists, Nick wants free stuff. It doesn’t matter how much others suffer, so long as he gets free stuff.

Bill
Reply to  MarkW
June 14, 2022 7:49 pm

No. He wants what he wants, when he wants it, and wants somebody else to pay for it. Just another ignorant Marxist.

Retired_Engineer_Jim
Reply to  Tom in Florida
June 14, 2022 10:15 am

He doesn’t approve of people losing money – he approves of the State using its police powers to force people to do something. If the State decides the compensation, what are the odds that it will be fair? If it only compensates the generators for fuel costs, they will still be operating at a loss.
Why, oh why, did the State not anticipate the need an install sufficient renewable-energy resources?

Rich Davis
Reply to  Tom in Florida
June 14, 2022 4:07 pm

A a communist, Nick subscribes to the principle “to each according to his needs, from each according to his abilities”

Those greedy operators are morally obligated to lose money preventing the Green house of cards from collapsing.

Am I wrong Nick?

ozspeaksup
Reply to  Tom in Florida
June 15, 2022 2:05 am

because rank capitalism places profit over all, and thats as lousy as full on communism. in a crisis breaking even should be good enough for a few days.
the insane version of capitalism that runs ussa especially ,ends as the SAME as communism one or two people with obscene power think fk u overbook or amazon etc, the roths n rockers in the finances etc.
Profit for individuals and shareholders over the common good of all in the nation is unhealthy and stupid
your health or UNhealth care system is a prime example, people die or end up bankrupt paying highly inflated bills set BY corporations. as a society thats in no ones interest

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  ozspeaksup
June 16, 2022 4:14 am

And yet people flock to the US for a chance at a better life. Maybe you’re the one who doesn’t have a clue. Profit for shareholders and individuals who provide value is the best for the common good. Socialism/Communism are bad for the common good.

LdB
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 14, 2022 6:23 am

The article is leftist junk the generators have a beef that the regulator continues to ignore and the incoming government is trying to press gang … so the companies are teaching them a lesson.

The lefty press can try and spin it anyway they can to make it the companies fault.

Why don’t you try actually reading the company view which you won’t find in left MSM. There are two sides to every argument try looking at the other side and get out of your lefty hovel.

Last edited 22 days ago by LdB
Reply to  LdB
June 14, 2022 10:22 am

the generators have a beef that the regulator continues to ignore”
The cap was imposed for one business day.

MarkW
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 14, 2022 4:51 pm

It’s OK to force people to operate at a loss, so long as it’s only for a short time?

ozspeaksup
Reply to  MarkW
June 15, 2022 2:07 am

actually YES it is, most are OS owned and profit taking with low taxes benefitting Aus very little

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 16, 2022 4:27 am

So they will provide power in one day. Obviously it costs less to shut down then to sell at a loss.

Bill
Reply to  LdB
June 14, 2022 7:56 pm

The two sides to a Marxist argument are; a reasonable position, and a totalitarian position based on lies and using disinformation to convince the ignorant.

MarkW
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 14, 2022 8:29 am

As usual Nick, you see what you want to see, not what is there.

ghl
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 14, 2022 9:11 am

The incentive is in the tarriff. Who wrote it?

Retired_Engineer_Jim
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 14, 2022 10:07 am

“suggesting” – yet another word so beloved by the Climate Scientists, along may, might and could.

hiskorr
Reply to  kcrucible
June 14, 2022 5:41 am

I question the word “unintentionally”.

Robertvd
Reply to  kcrucible
June 14, 2022 2:38 pm

Let them burn cake.

ozspeaksup
Reply to  Robertvd
June 15, 2022 2:08 am

nah let em burn all the stockpiled plastic tyres and other waste! weeks worth of fuel just sitting around

ozspeaksup
Reply to  kcrucible
June 15, 2022 1:59 am

unless its diesel I cannot see how they cant afford to run its just blustern bulldust

Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 14, 2022 4:34 am

Nick

Have you really become totally delusional? We have gone from stable reliable energy to an ever worsening unreliable system in the span of 15 years around much of the developed world. This is mirrored by failures in almost every important life sustaining economic endeavor like food, medicine and housing. All because of government over reach and and control and all caused by the propaganda about CAGW. In the third world its worse. This is the cause you push when are you going to wake up, there is no catastrophic climate change and you know it, yet for pride sake alone you won’t let go of this BS. Come on man!

RevJay4
Reply to  bob boder
June 14, 2022 5:08 am

Can’t discuss facts with CAGW cultists, it’s an ideological thing. Much like any other religion, there are no scientific data references which actually backs up their claims.
Hey, you already knew that, and so does “Nick”. I do applaud you for trying to enlighten the poor waif. He would have been a great addition to “Jonestown”, with all that blind faith and everything.

kwinterkorn
Reply to  RevJay4
June 14, 2022 6:35 am

Yes, but the CAGW cultists will notice when they try to charge up their electric cars and find out an EV is useless during a power outage. Then they’ll scream.

It’s like in LA….a few jewelry stores and rich folks homes suffer grab and runs from street thugs, and suddenly there’s an outcry for law and order….”recall the progressive DA!”

Progressives never seem to mind when other people are hurt by their policies.

glenn holdcroft
Reply to  bob boder
June 14, 2022 9:52 am

Spot on , the unelected are ruling our demise while Russia, China are barrelling along .
They wouldnt be influencing this upon us , surely ?

ozspeaksup
Reply to  glenn holdcroft
June 15, 2022 2:11 am

blame the WEF and the eu for the mess were in, the davos n bilderberger crowds as well
you know those nice filthy rich industrialists with all the power who are the ones forcing agenda 21/30 and all the rest of the greencrapola onto us, while theyre swanning round the globe moralising and making billions a day or week

Jim Gorman
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 14, 2022 5:01 am

From the article:

The withdrawals were prompted by the Australian Energy Market Operator’s (AEMO) decision to put a cap on spiralling prices “

Exactly what don’t you understand about price controls?

I believe you miss the fact that when price controls are implemented, that businesses are under no obligation to provide product.

Your stance indicates, that you must believe in state control of business whereby they can force businesses to produce at a loss. You should educate yourself as to what fascism means to business.

LdB
Reply to  Jim Gorman
June 14, 2022 6:26 am

Yes that is the trigger the companies … they already had beefs and the incoming government tried to push the issue. It isn’t hard to understand and if they did it to workers they would go on strike but Nick has green coloured glasses.

Well those companies are going to teach the regulator and government a lesson in negotiation.

Last edited 22 days ago by LdB
Reply to  LdB
June 14, 2022 10:54 am

Negotiation does seem to have succeeded:

AEMO also released a statement on Tuesday afternoon saying supply shortfalls in NSW and Queensland would be met following discussions with governments, industry and generation owners.

“Discussions with scheduled generators indicate an estimate of approximately 2,000 megawatts of generation in each of Queensland and New South Wales, which hasn’t bid into the market, can be directed by AEMO to be available to help meet forecast electricity shortfalls this evening,” AEMO said.”

MarkW
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 14, 2022 4:53 pm

You seem to believe that because the government abandoned a really stupid policy quickly, that means the really stupid policy wasn’t actually really stupid.

Reply to  MarkW
June 14, 2022 9:26 pm

The government (which?) didn’t do anything.

The AEMO’s cap will continue to be applied on days where the rules require. The long-standing rules have not changed.

LdB
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 14, 2022 6:50 pm

“Negotiation does seem to have succeeded”

Notice the announcement doesn’t say what was given to get the agreement 🙂

Like you the lefty MSM doesn’t even think to ask the question what happened.

Perhaps I will let you in on it … they have agreed to meet (including the minister) over the concerns of the generators and magically 2000 Megawatts came out of safety shutdowns. In normal industrial disputes it would be called a ceasefire and return to work order.

By the way we can also now address your other stupid claim that there was no threat of prosecution. Even the lefty MSM noted today that AEMO sent letters to the generators threatening them with $10M per day fines.

ozspeaksup
Reply to  LdB
June 15, 2022 2:12 am

those idiots will hand themselves on a platter to the bloody greentards!!!!

Carlo, Monte
Reply to  Jim Gorman
June 14, 2022 6:50 am

Stokes is no longer trying to hide his red plumage.

CoRev
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 14, 2022 6:24 am

Nick on other threads you have failed to respond to my claims that adding renewables to a grid adds costs directly. You now claim that the other generators are not generating because they would lose money. That’s another indirect cost of adding unreliable intermittent renewables to the grid.

Your unicorn farts are beginning to badly stink. We’ve warned you folks for years what would happen and you denied than and continue to do so.

MarkW
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 14, 2022 8:28 am

It is so sad when trolls produce data that doesn’t support the point they are trying to make.
The quote you provide does not demonstrate that the plant owners are not currently operating at a loss.

Richard Page
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 14, 2022 10:36 am

That is, of course, one side of the argument. Where is the power generating companies’ statement to give a balanced view? I rather think that the power regulators are unlikely to say something along the lines of: “After several years of reduced payments for infrastructure and expansion, after years of attacks and undermining of the power industry, after capping prices whilst over subsidising the competition, when we simply asked them to supply more power out of their own pockets they were unable to do so.”
It’s not ‘pulling a sickie’ – it’s paying minimum wage then expecting evening and weekend working as well; never going to happen. If you refuse to pay a fair amount you must expect not to get served.

ozspeaksup
Reply to  Richard Page
June 15, 2022 2:15 am

and that point? the amounts being claimed are NOT Fair or reasonable. were NOT importers of overpriced uae or other sourced generation WE have our OWN abundant coal and gas

Richard Page
Reply to  ozspeaksup
June 15, 2022 4:21 am

If Joe Bloggs from down the road wants to buy my coal at twice the price that my neighbour wants to pay then where is the incentive to sell to my neighbour?

RLu
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 14, 2022 11:35 am

The indirect costs of a plant are almost the same, wether it runs 8000 hours per year or 80 hours.

Those 80 hours that the sun doesn’t shine and the wind doesn’t blow, must bring in the revenue for the entire year. If not, sooner or later you don’t have money left to buy new fuel.

Would not surprise me, if that was the hidden intent of the prise controls.

Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 15, 2022 9:49 am

Nick, it is not a trick. It is refusing to work at a loss. There is no reason for the price cap.

If it costs $200 to drive to work and back, and I only earn $150 a day, I am not going to show up. Refusing to participate in a losing deal is not “a ploy” to get more money. It is common sense.

Bryan A
Reply to  Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
June 15, 2022 12:15 pm

How else will the idiotic Aussie Government shut down fossil fuel generation and still look good to the populace.
Force the energy sector to operate at a loss.
When they go insolvent and have to shut generation down, blame them for the lack of electricity.

Old Man Winter
Reply to  rbabcock
June 14, 2022 3:56 am

Which kind of unicorn will work best?

unicvars.jpg
Old Man Winter
Reply to  Bryan A
June 14, 2022 6:13 am

Thanks for the update. So much to know, so little time! I hope they don’t
have pronouns, too, which could lead to this:

headexpl.jpg
Bryan A
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 14, 2022 5:31 am

I think YOU are missing the point Mr Stokes.
Would you go to work for a time if your salary were reduced to the point that it cost you more to get there than you were allowed to make in a day or Would you simply call in sick on those days?
Be HONEST now…

Last edited 22 days ago by Bryan A
Spetzer86
Reply to  Bryan A
June 14, 2022 5:54 am

With gas prices in the USA going through the roof, we’ll soon find out what that does to our local communters.

Michael in Dublin
Reply to  Spetzer86
June 14, 2022 8:11 am

It is now €2.132 (A$ 3.22) per litre in Dublin.
And 49% of that goes to the government coffers.

Our Green Party Transport Minister has advice: he says motorists struggling to pay for petrol & diesel should contact their local social welfare office for support.

These people live in their own bubble far removed from reality.

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  Michael in Dublin
June 21, 2022 10:45 am

Therein lies the problem. The government trough pigs need to suffer the same lifestyle they wish to impose on everyone else.

Carlo, Monte
Reply to  Bryan A
June 14, 2022 6:52 am

He will never give an honest answer (or any answer) here.

Carlo, Monte
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 14, 2022 6:41 am

Dork.

Forrest Gardener
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 14, 2022 5:54 pm

And as always Nick you miss the point of what you read. It’s as though you do it intentionally.

FrankH
June 14, 2022 2:28 am

But… but… but… the energy from the sun and the wind is free. So what Australia needs is more solar panels and windmills.

(I don’tI have to point out that that isn’t a serious suggestion, do I?)

Spetzer86
Reply to  FrankH
June 14, 2022 5:54 am

“as Australia continues it’s transition to green energy”….They ain’t stopping now.

Carlo, Monte
Reply to  Spetzer86
June 14, 2022 6:53 am

Should be renamed “dark energy”…

ghl
Reply to  Carlo, Monte
June 14, 2022 9:17 am

Blame the astronomers, they introduced the concept.

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  Carlo, Monte
June 21, 2022 10:51 am

Be more honest. There might actually BE ‘dark energy.’

“GREEN” energy, on the other hand, isn’t “green” at all and is 100% dependent on fossil fuels, providing nothing more than a facade as opposed to any actual energy.

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  Spetzer86
June 21, 2022 10:47 am

Should read “continues its transition to the Stone Age”…

Old Man Winter
Reply to  FrankH
June 14, 2022 6:25 am

Not only more of them but also add mobile wind & solar units for emergency crews to use after the
next typhoon hits!

MarkW
Reply to  FrankH
June 14, 2022 8:35 am

Several of our trolls have made the exact same claim. That the solution to these power shortages is more wind and solar. So yes, you do need to point out that you aren’t being serious.

drednicolson
Reply to  MarkW
June 14, 2022 4:44 pm

Their solution to a sinking ship is to pour in more water.

TonyG
Reply to  drednicolson
June 14, 2022 5:17 pm

To be fair, if you pour in enough water, it won’t be “sinking” anymore…

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  TonyG
June 21, 2022 1:53 pm

OK, how about “their solution to a burning g building is to hose it down with gasoline?”

Doc Chuck
Reply to  MarkW
June 15, 2022 12:05 am

Taking more of what ails you has all the homeopathic of ‘like cures like’ for a culture of embedded stupidity wishing to defend the continuation of governing regimes, currently vested economic interests, and planetary salvation heroism; while for some the very collapse of western democracies is an intently savored outcome.

Peter East
Reply to  FrankH
June 14, 2022 3:50 pm

And more daylight saving hours

Ewin Barnett
June 14, 2022 2:30 am

Our wise overlords consult with the wizards of smart.

H.R.
Reply to  Ewin Barnett
June 14, 2022 6:14 am

Spitters. (SPITRs) They think they are The Smartest People In The Room, therefore everyone must do as they say. Those that won’t are evil and must be destroyed. If no one is buying the ideas they are selling, then government must force everyone to do as they say… because they are the spitters.

[insert eyeball-spraining eyeroll emoji here]

June 14, 2022 2:35 am

On the Sydney outage on Monday night, the Ausgrid tweet is here. It doesn’t say that the outages were load shedding, or anything other than normal line problems. The said they had crews working on it, which would be an odd response to load shedding.

The report, with no indication of how many homes were involved, appeared in Murdoch publications, 7news and the Daily Mail. There is nothing in more sober media.

Last edited 22 days ago by Nick Stokes
Graemethecat
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 14, 2022 3:06 am

Blackouts were virtually unknown in the West until the advent of “Renewable” energy. Funny, that…

Reply to  Graemethecat
June 14, 2022 3:14 am
Graemethecat
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 14, 2022 3:57 am

I wrote “virtually”, not “never”.

Reading comprehension is clearly not your strong point.

Reply to  Graemethecat
June 14, 2022 4:02 am

But wait, there’s more.

Old Man Winter
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 14, 2022 4:37 am

Begin @37:30- dealing with Top Gun students who are a “great stick, but
have a certain attitude”.

Quote @ 40:00- You can’t push a rope & you can’t polish a turd!

Old Man Winter
Reply to  Old Man Winter
June 14, 2022 4:39 am

BONUS- behind-the-scenes footage on filming Top Gun: Maverick

CoRev
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 14, 2022 6:31 am

Nick didn’t notice the count going up as we entered the renewables era. Nope! He couldn’t admit that.

Graemethecat
Reply to  CoRev
June 14, 2022 7:31 am

Good catch!

Nick isn’t nearly as clever as he thinks, and clearly failed to check his own reference.

Hoist on his own petard.

MarkW
Reply to  Graemethecat
June 14, 2022 8:39 am

The first thing I noticed was that very, very few of the blackouts listed were in Western countries, which after all was the focus of the original comment.

Last edited 22 days ago by MarkW
b.nice
Reply to  Graemethecat
June 14, 2022 3:06 pm

Nick is getting dumber by the day.

Needs to get his meds checked and rebalanced.

MarkW
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 14, 2022 8:38 am

The comment was about modern grids in the west, almost all of the blackouts in that list are in 2nd and 3rd world countries.
Of the few blackouts that did occur in the west, a few dozen over several decades, for the entire western world, would count as virtually none to a rational person.

As usual, when Nick does produce data, it doesn’t support the claims he is making.

Reply to  MarkW
June 14, 2022 11:08 am

OK, let’s just look at 2003:

“On July 22, a severe wind storm disrupted power to over 300,000 customers in the Memphis, Tennessee, metropolitan area.[71]

On August 14–28, the Northeast blackout of 2003, a wide-area power failure in the northeastern US and central Canada, affected over 55 million people, 14 days fully restored.

On September 2, the 2003 southern Malaysia blackout resulted when a power failure affected five states (out of 13) in Malaysia, including the capital Kuala Lumpur, for five hours, starting at 10:00 am local time.

On September 23, a power failure affected five million people in east Denmark and southern Sweden.[72][73]

On September 28, the 2003 Italy blackout resulted from a power failure that affected all of Italy except Sardinia, cutting service to more than 56 million people.[74]”

MarkW
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 14, 2022 4:58 pm

2 of your 5 examples are third world countries, of the other 3, you do your standard cherry picking to find a small number of incidents that occurred in a cluster, however you still had to include the entire world in order to create it.

PS: Nobody ever said power blackouts never happen, the claim was that they were virtually non-existent in the west. Nothing you have presented have refuted that statement.

Reply to  MarkW
June 14, 2022 9:09 pm

2 of your 5 examples are third world countries”
Italy is third world? Or was that Tennessee?

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 16, 2022 4:48 am

Your wind storm in Tennessee knocked down power lines. That happens whether you use coal or solar to generate electricity. It’s not the large distribution lines. It’s mostly local to a small area or a single building. The number of lines down is what causes the problem.

HotScot
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 14, 2022 11:57 am

About 4 of those blackouts were western nations, which was Graemethecat’s original point.

Reply to  HotScot
June 14, 2022 1:15 pm

Yes, 4 out of 5 for 2003.

But GtC’s claim was that
Blackouts were virtually unknown in the West until the advent of “Renewable” energy.”

Graemethecat
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 14, 2022 2:45 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/aug/12/three-blackout-near-misses-in-three-months-says-national-grid

Even your friend The Guardian is getting alarmed at the increasing instability of the UK’s National Grid.

MarkW
Reply to  Graemethecat
June 14, 2022 5:01 pm

Nick has yet to learn how to stop digging when in a hole.

Reply to  Graemethecat
June 14, 2022 11:04 pm

Well, it was in 2019. The grid seems to still work.

MarkW
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 14, 2022 5:00 pm

4 blackouts for the entire year, does not refute the claim.

Reply to  MarkW
June 14, 2022 9:06 pm

The claim was:
“Blackouts were virtually unknown in the West until the advent of “Renewable” energy.”
Really???
This list only includes blackouts on a near nation wide scale.

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 16, 2022 5:24 am

Do you consider downed power lines to an individual house to be a grid backout? I think the discussion is about failure of power generation.

HotScot
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 15, 2022 12:59 am

I answered that as well. All the major blackouts I can find were system failures, not overall shortage of electricity.

You are living in cloud cuckoo land if you imagine current shortages aren’t principally the fault of intermittent renewables.

Other than for two or three days over the last couple of weeks, this has been the parlous state of UK generation.

Screenshot 2022-06-15 at 08.56.01.png
Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 16, 2022 4:40 am

I don’t think a blackout every 40 years or so is that big of a deal.

HotScot
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 14, 2022 11:55 am

The blackout’s proximate cause was a software bug in the alarm system at the control room of FirstEnergy, an Akron, Ohio–based company

Nothing to do with supply.

Reply to  HotScot
June 14, 2022 9:06 pm

The claim was:
“Blackouts were virtually unknown in the West until the advent of “Renewable” energy.”

HotScot
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 15, 2022 1:01 am

Stop wriggling, it’s undignified.

Dave Stubbs
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 15, 2022 6:00 am

Nick, I suspect it’s useless to explain to you what was meant by “Blackouts were virtually unknown ….”, but here goes. This meant blackouts CAUSED by poor energy management policies. You in turn cite blackouts caused by weather, accidents, etc. Really Nick, I suspect you are smarter than you seem, but simply can’t get past your socialist/communist ideologies.

Drake
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 14, 2022 5:13 pm

Caused by a software problem, not by a failure of a portion of the generation supply, so called renewable or green energy which is mandated and favored by the government, to provide dispatchable energy outputs.

Requiring the coal plants to provide that backup without paying for that service is the problem. I commend the coal producers for NOT doing so until the price paid is sufficient to fund the fuel AND reimburse the excessive maintenance and repair costs associated with the excessive cycling of the plants due to wind and solar being the first “used” energy.

Derg
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 14, 2022 3:13 am

You will go to your grave believing in unreliables. Why do you hate the poor?

Screw you.

Carlo, Monte
Reply to  Derg
June 14, 2022 6:55 am

He’s a deep red watermelon.

H B
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 14, 2022 4:33 am

I call Bovine excrement

Editor
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 14, 2022 4:58 am

OK, let’s suppose they were just normal line problems. That means that if they fix the lines, the problems won’t happen again for quite a while. But, if the problems do come back, or if gas or coal power has to fill the gap, then they weren’t normal line problems after all.

My guess is that they weren’t normal line problems in the first place, simply because there doesn’t seem to have been a normal problem (how long since the last time supply failed and was it a normal line problem then?), and there’s another very simple logical explanation: renewables have stuffed up the system.

One question which surely the ABC and their fellow travellers are going to have to answer soon, is why didn’t the wind and solar suppliers simply supply a bit more when there was more need. Answering that question basically answers everything.

Reply to  Mike Jonas
June 14, 2022 5:21 am

” or if gas or coal power has to fill the gap, then they weren’t normal line problems after all.”
??? This is just part of the suburban network. It has no dependence on the source of power.

The Ausgrid tweet said “Our crew are working to safely restore power.”. What on Earth would they be doing if it was a problem caused by renewables? Or any kind of generator inadequacy? Ausgrid do poles and wires.

Tim Gorman
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 14, 2022 6:04 am

The Ausgrid tweet said “Our crew are working to safely restore power.”.”

The “line problems” could have easily been from switches tripping because of under-voltage/high current, phase problems from low voltage, blown fuses/transformers, or any number of things. Line crews would have been required to be dispatched to fix any number of problems from cut-off switches to fuses to to blown transformers — all because of a lack of sufficient generation on the grid.

You *really* don’t know much about the power grid, do you? Yet you consider yourself enough of an expert to comment on why line crews are needed after grid failures?

Carlo, Monte
Reply to  Tim Gorman
June 14, 2022 6:56 am

He a red mathematician, he don’t do no stinkin’ engineering.

Reply to  Tim Gorman
June 14, 2022 10:25 am

So if it was a grid-wide problem, why did it occur in just this one locality?

Kevin kilty
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 14, 2022 1:56 pm

Because problems start at a point of failure, nd spread to become bigger problems or stop. They are failures, sir, and not entirely predictable.

Reply to  Kevin kilty
June 14, 2022 9:03 pm

So a point of failure? What does this have to do with inadequate generation?

One of the tabloid outlets decided to beat up one of the routine tweets from Ausnet that you can see any night. Somewhere around the country. there is a problem and they have sent out a team to fix it. There has been no further reporting of the matter, either by the tabloids or the sensible media.

There is no evidence NSW was lacking power on Monday night.

Jim Gorman
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 14, 2022 3:02 pm

Cascade failure. Read the following for very brief explanation for lay people.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cascading_failure

Note the following.

“One of the primary problems with preventing electrical grid failures is that the speed of the control signal is no faster than the speed of the propagating power overload, i.e. since both the control signal and the electrical power are moving at the same speed, it is not possible to isolate the outage by sending a warning ahead to isolate the element.”

Funny how electrical signals propagate at the same speed!

Drake
Reply to  Jim Gorman
June 14, 2022 5:22 pm

But with fiber optic data transmissions, the switch CAN isolate the element before the problem reaches it.

But I am sure that power providers have not spent the money to do this type of thing since all the allocations, as directed by governments and regulators, must go to infrastructure to the subsidized remote “renewable” generation capacity.

Jim Gorman
Reply to  Drake
June 14, 2022 7:17 pm

Why do you think fiber carries information faster than electrical signals over a signaling wire. Fiber requires repeaters that insert delay.

Light on fiber and electric signals on wire basically all travel at the speed of light. Fiber has the ability to carry more information is all.

The problem is that a shorted transmission line looks like a short to the other end at the speed of light. Increased current flow will trip devices immediately. Losing a load at a power plant can be catastrophic. You simply can’t forward a message around a fault fast enough to prevent the fault from causing a problem. These failures will bounce around causing problems just like a break on a billiard table.

Folks, we electrical engineers have spent hours learning all this. Identifying single point failure possibilities that can damage a multipoint system (not necessarily a power grid) is the stuff of nightmares.

b.nice
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 14, 2022 3:10 pm

WOW.. Nick is really showing his ignorance of electricity grid now.!

The Teal and Green seats are the ones that should be targetted for load-shedding, don’t you agree, Nick..

or would you get too many blackouts ?

MarkW
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 14, 2022 5:02 pm

Because those were the locations that were skirting closest to the line.

whiten
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 14, 2022 9:21 am

You should not talk about what you have no clue whatsoever.

ghl
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 14, 2022 9:22 am

Someone skimped on the gold plating on the transmission grid.

Editor
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 14, 2022 3:03 pm

From https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_major_power_outages

Major power outages in Australia: 2007 VIC caused by bushfires, 2011 QLD cyclone, 2013 QLD cyclone, 2016 SA tornadoes, 2019 Sydney storm, 2021 Melbourne storm.

Now suddenly we face major blackouts without a cyclone or a storm because of “normal line failure”?

Nuts.

Reply to  Mike Jonas
June 14, 2022 8:45 pm

There is no evidence this was a major blackout. Any estimate of households affected?

Editor
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 16, 2022 5:06 am

Mathematically speaking, at least five: “Homes in Beacon Hill, Frenchs Forest, Narraweena, Cromer and Dee Why were all temporarily without power, Ausgrid said.”. But maybe a reasonable estimate would be a few thousand upwards. But then they also say that more blackouts could be on their way. Doesn’t it seem really strange that major failures in the past were triggered by major weather events, yet this one is happening all under its own steam. Incidentally, the definition of a ‘major power outage’ includes “The outage must affect at least 1k people.”. I think our unfortunate friends in Beacon Hill etc would easily number 1k, and these unfortunate people are being warned that they may be going to get a lot more of the same.

The system is stuffed, and the combination of the war on fossil fuels and the installation of far too much renewables (and rules unfairly favouring them) is doing the stuffing.

Jim Gorman
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 14, 2022 5:05 am

You don’t have a clue about power distribution do you? Do you think you just go over and flip a wall switch to connect a generator to a large grid?

Ed Zuiderwijk
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 14, 2022 5:52 am

Nothing in more ‘sober’ media. Because those still live in cloud cuckoo land and won’t print anything critical of the climate religion for fear of Fatwas.

Also, it is something of an intelligence test.

Reply to  Ed Zuiderwijk
June 14, 2022 11:00 am

It’s pretty hard to cover up a major grid shortfall. Basically, nothing has happened. There have been warnings.

b.nice
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 14, 2022 3:13 pm

Yes rational people who know the AGW meme is a farce, have been warning about this for ages.

Glad you think several suburbs being without power is “nothing has happened”

Your turn next !

Reply to  b.nice
June 14, 2022 8:43 pm

There is nothing to link that Monday night local incident in Sydney with the grid generation worries, which in any case never lead to a shortfall in NSW.

Did we ever learn how many households were affected? Thought not.

LdB
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 14, 2022 6:33 am

Your in the Eastern States good luck in the next week 🙂

Carlo, Monte
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 14, 2022 6:54 am

How is all this going to affect the hockey stick, Stokes?

b.nice
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 14, 2022 3:04 pm

“There is nothing in more sober media.”

Yep, the far-left propaganda rags that you get your information from are hardly likely to mention it, are they!

Nick hates the “only slightly left” balance of the Murdoch press

Much prefers the far-left non-balance of the gutter press.

Speed
June 14, 2022 2:43 am

Clean, cheap, safe, reliable …

MarkW
Reply to  Speed
June 14, 2022 8:42 am

None of which are provided by wind and solar power.

Rod Evans
June 14, 2022 2:52 am

That Federal Agency Energy Minister is a wag isn’t he? He speaks while controlling the worlds richest coal deposit area. An area that exports coal all over the globe and he thinks he has achieved something special, when he came out with this: quote.
“We managed to avoid any load shedding or blackouts in Queensland last evening.

June 14, 2022 2:54 am

Meanwhile back in America we too are rolling toward blackouts, while NERC does nothing:
https://www.cfact.org/2022/06/14/news-of-nerc-is-not-good-for-reliability/

Tony
June 14, 2022 3:05 am

Contrary to headline-this has nothing to do with green energy. In both states electricity producers have withdrawn multiple gigawatts of power in the hope they can get a higher price.

The other problem is the breakdown of ageing coal fired power plants. But, for WUWT- I guess this sort of misdirection is just routine.

Loydo
Reply to  Eric Worrall
June 14, 2022 4:25 am

Insurance companies, institutional investors, sovereign wealth funds, superannuation funds, financial institutions, scientific concensus, etc.

Derg
Reply to  Loydo
June 14, 2022 4:41 am

You are a human turd…Government is the answer. They also hold back nuclear.

Eff you. Why do you hate the poor?

Old Man Winter
Reply to  Loydo
June 14, 2022 5:59 am

Citing “scientific concensus”- the first sign that someone is anti-science.

MarkW
Reply to  Old Man Winter
June 14, 2022 8:44 am

Especially when said consensus is built by declaring that anyone who disagrees with you is not a scientist.

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  MarkW
June 21, 2022 2:03 pm

And misclassifying those whose input you do count, while ignoring responses that don’t appear to support your preconceived conclusions.

MarkW
Reply to  Loydo
June 14, 2022 8:44 am

FIrst off, there is not and never has been a scientific consensus.
The rest of your list amount to politicians getting in the way of reliable power.

Ron Long
Reply to  Loydo
June 14, 2022 10:22 am

Loydo, look in a mirror.

HotScot
Reply to  Loydo
June 14, 2022 12:05 pm

Insurance companies, institutional investors, sovereign wealth funds, superannuation funds, financial institutions

Keep up for Pete’s sake. Larry Fink of Blackrock said recently that they will no longer pressurise investors to favour green investment (thereby admitting they were favouring green investment) shortly after Stuart Kirk of HSBC called the investment community out and exposing to clients the massive risks being taken with their money by going green.

Now the genie’s out the bottle investors are lining up their lawyers to sue ideologically green investors who are not fulfilling their fiduciary duty.

scientific concensus

Are you still trotting out that puerile nonsense?

Graemethecat
Reply to  HotScot
June 14, 2022 2:51 pm

Fund managers who fail to make decent returns for their investors do not last long. All the ESG and Green nonsense won’t change that.

b.nice
Reply to  HotScot
June 14, 2022 3:19 pm

“Are you still trotting out that puerile nonsense?”

He knows he has nothing else. !

b.nice
Reply to  Loydo
June 14, 2022 3:19 pm

So all part of the greenie, far-left anti-CO2 SCAM called AGW.

Yes.. we have known that for a long time.

Glad you are finally waking up to the consequences of the ignorant anti-science ideology you have been sucked into.

Reply to  Eric Worrall
June 14, 2022 4:56 am

Thorium liquid salts cooled reactors would provide low cost reliable power that is a basis for economic growth.

Bryan A
Reply to  Anti_griff
June 14, 2022 5:46 am

And where are their any of these miraculous devices currently pumping useful energy into an existing electric grid?

fretslider
Reply to  Bryan A
June 14, 2022 6:17 am

Have you checked with the green outfits that oppose nuclear, period?

We don’t need nuclear power to tackle climate change

The transition to renewable energy is already underway”

We don’t need nuclear power to tackle climate change | Greenpeace UK

Last edited 22 days ago by fretslider
HotScot
Reply to  Bryan A
June 15, 2022 1:05 am

Wuwei, Gansu province, China. Due to be scaled up to commercial production.

Bryan A
Reply to  HotScot
June 15, 2022 5:44 am

That’s a Chinese test site that doesn’t, by your own choice of wording, produce commercially useful generation. So again, where are there any Thorium Generators pumping electricity into any grid? (Hint: there aren’t any)

DaveS
Reply to  Eric Worrall
June 14, 2022 5:18 am

Stupidity.

Tony
Reply to  Eric Worrall
June 14, 2022 6:48 am

Why build another coal plant, when there is plenty of coal power already- that’s not the problem: the problem is that generators are withholding their power to get higher prices.

Do you know of a famous company that tried the same rent seeking stunt in California?

Enron- it didn’t end well for them, nor will it for the present power companies.

Jim Gorman
Reply to  Tony
June 14, 2022 7:02 am

You need to review what Enron’s problem was. It has nothing to with this issue. In fact, it is almost the opposite. They booked future contracts as current revenue. A Ponzi scheme if you will. Why do you think Arthur Anderson went out of business from fraudulent accounting?

MarkW
Reply to  Jim Gorman
June 14, 2022 8:47 am

You don’t expect Tony to actually understand the issue.
All he knows is that private companies are evil.

OweninGA
Reply to  Tony
June 14, 2022 7:56 am

Tony,

Whenever price controls have been applied to an economic problem, product that cost more to produce then the set price have disappeared from the market. When you make the price lower than the input fuel cost, never mind the cost of labor and maintenance, the producers have no choice but to withdraw from the market.

Rich Davis
Reply to  OweninGA
June 14, 2022 4:36 pm

If they were morally upright, Owen, they would keep on generating until they go bankrupt. Nick, Loydo, and Tony can esplain it to you.

OweninGA
Reply to  Rich Davis
June 15, 2022 4:21 am

I know. There are so many people these days that confuse “rights” and “wants” and think someone else should pay for their good times. It will all go swimmingly until they finally run out of other people’s money to spend.

Meab
Reply to  Tony
June 14, 2022 8:30 am

Tony, why do you leftists lie all the time? Enron was a Texas company, not a California company. Houston to be precise. Their problem was that they falsely reported the value of their assets, not that they withheld power – you made that up.

MarkW
Reply to  Tony
June 14, 2022 8:46 am

One constant with socialists, they don’t understand why businessmen are reluctant to operate at loss. To a man, they hate it when reality gets in the way of the free stuff they demand.

b.nice
Reply to  Tony
June 14, 2022 3:22 pm

There USED to be plenty of coal to cover peak load, then some

That is no longer the case

But its great to see that you think we should build up to that situation again

Grid would be highly stable and much cheaper.

Yes, the rent and subsidy seeking wind and solar scammers will get their comeuppance.

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  Tony
June 16, 2022 5:32 am

Ever hear of supply and demand?

leowaj
Reply to  Tony
June 14, 2022 7:05 am

Correct, Tony. The electricity producers are seeking to make money, which should not come as a surprise in a free market society like Australia. (Well, “free-ish” market.) Somehow, electricity producers must pay for: fuel, maintenance, and employees. And they must pay back debts. On top of that, most companies not only want to cover their costs, they want to be able to save some money which they can reinvest.

You are quick to call it a “misdirection”, but if the aforementioned is how the electricity producers work, then when it becomes cost-ineffective to operate they simple slow down or shut down to preserve what they currently have and to wait for more economically feasible conditions.

MarkW
Reply to  leowaj
June 14, 2022 8:55 am

In a proper socialist world, companies don’t worry about profit and make everything free of charge. That they should seek to make a profit is just proof of how they don’t know how to run a business. The solution is of course to have the government take over everything.

Elle W
Reply to  MarkW
June 14, 2022 2:00 pm

UNESCO released a paper recently on their preferred direction of children’s education on this planet, and it said exactly that:that children should be taught it is wrong to make a profit out of their personal hard work and ideas and inventions.

leowaj
Reply to  MarkW
June 14, 2022 3:12 pm

It’s funny because in Lenin’s socialist experiment in Russia, he complained that companies were not innovating at anywhere near the rate companies were in the capitalist West. He couldn’t figure it out on his own because his brain was locked into a single way of thinking. It took prodding from the upper echelon of the proletariat– and famine, inflation, and chaos– to finally convince him to reform the economy.

When there’s no incentive– i.e., money, security, stability– to get better, there is no innovation.

MarkW
Reply to  Tony
June 14, 2022 8:43 am

Either you didn’t bother reading the actual article, or you didn’t try to understand what you were reading.

Richard Page
Reply to  Tony
June 14, 2022 10:52 am

No. Like Texas, Australia’s east coast was hit by an unexpected spate of cold weather that caused a massive increase in demand. Like Texas, the renewables were unable to supply any extra power (low wind speed and overnight so no solar either) so there was a sudden shortfall that needed to be filled. Interesting to see the parallels really.

b.nice
Reply to  Tony
June 14, 2022 3:16 pm

“in the hope they can get a higher price”

You mean getting enough to cover their costs ?

“breakdown of ageing coal fired power plants”

Yep, due to being starved of maintenance funds by the greenie anti-CO2 agenda,

Is great to see you realising that we desperately need to build some new ones.

Last edited 22 days ago by b.nice
OweninGA
Reply to  b.nice
June 15, 2022 4:28 am

Not just starved of funds for maintenance, but given outrageous improvement conditions for repair permits that make conducting such repairs ruinously expensive.

Drake
Reply to  Tony
June 14, 2022 5:33 pm

And why would they break down?? Oh yes, it is because they must vary output at a much greater range than before “renewables” to make up for the variable output of “green” energy. That continuous ramping up and down accelerates the aging of the plants and greatly increases maintenance costs, which the “green” producers SHOULD be required to pay for but are not.

Ron Long
June 14, 2022 3:06 am

This is another validation of the observation “if you subsidize something you get more of it, and if you penalize something you get less of it”. So, subsidize “green energy”, which can’t deliver 24/7, and you make the problem worse. Eric is right about Nuclear Energy, clean and safe, and Australia has lots of fuel for it.

Bryan A
Reply to  Ron Long
June 14, 2022 5:48 am

Just to be fair, Green Energy can deliver 24/7 on some weeks just not 24/7/365 on any year without reliable Fossil back-up interconnections to the grid

Spetzer86
Reply to  Bryan A
June 14, 2022 6:06 am

Green Energy only ever delivers 24/7 for a week anywhere/anytime by having massive over capacities. That means more capital investments, more complexity, and more waste.

Bryan A
Reply to  Spetzer86
June 14, 2022 6:11 am

And then you have the massive oversupply issue when conditions are perfect for “always on” weather dependent energy production

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  Bryan A
June 16, 2022 5:37 am

Green Energy can never deliver 24/7 if solar is part of the mix.

Old Man Winter
Reply to  Ron Long
June 14, 2022 7:03 am

“which can’t deliver 24/7”

The “elephant in the room” no one’s mentioned yet is storage. Oz has only 1 GWh of battery
back-up- a whole 2 minutes of it. WOW! The fact that the wind blows less in summer & winter when
extreme weather strikes only makes the need for back-up even more important. David Wojick
discusses the YUGE hidden cost of batteries:

https://www.cfact.org/2022/01/19/unreliability-makes-solar-power-impossibly-expensive/

As for the “evil hydro” storage, Tumut 3 has 600 MW capacity but for how long? A day’s operation
supplies 14 GWh when Oz uses >500 GWh/day- a drop in the bucket!

Jim Gorman
Reply to  Old Man Winter
June 14, 2022 7:18 am

You might want to examine your units here. 1 GWh is 1 gigawatt for an hour. 1 GW for 2 min is .5 GW/min. Over an hour that works out to 0.0083 GWh capacity.

Old Man Winter
Reply to  Jim Gorman
June 14, 2022 7:22 am

When you’re using ~30 GWh/hr, it’s only 2 minutes, assuming the batteries
are fully charged. When rating capacity, they conveniently show the YUGE rating but
don’t mention the short time that it lasts. Deception at its finest!

Last edited 22 days ago by Old Man Winter
Graemethecat
June 14, 2022 3:07 am

“Experience is a dear (expensive) school, but men will learn at no other”.

(Benjamin Franklin)

Peter Wells
Reply to  Graemethecat
June 14, 2022 4:40 pm

Unfortunately some men are incapable of learning.

Graemethecat
Reply to  Peter Wells
June 15, 2022 12:33 am

Nick Stokes perhaps?

fretslider
June 14, 2022 3:24 am

Sounds even worse than Blighty – and we have Carrie. I stumbled on the madness of ABC and Tasmanian Catholics…

“”Loretta Lohberger noted in the Australian Broadcasting Corporation that the archdiocese’s newspaper, The Catholic Standard, recently published an article “Exposing the ‘modern green religion,’” a favorable review of a speech given by geologist Ian Plimer at the Christopher Dawson Centre, a thinktank established by Archbishop Porteous.

In her article, Ms. Lohberger cites at length from Concerned Catholics Tasmania (CCT), a progressive Catholic group in Tasmania

While he is entitled to his opinion, I do not see why what he says and writes should be given free rein in a Catholic Church publication, especially without qualification,” wrote CCT chairman Kim Chen.””

https://www.breitbart.com/faith/2022/06/13/media-slam-catholic-archbishop-giving-space-climate-skeptics/

Yahweh, Gaia, it’s all the same to me – irrational

Tony
June 14, 2022 3:38 am

“it’s being very actively managed”
There’s a euphemism for the age.

Simonsays
June 14, 2022 3:39 am

Look, we voted for Better Weather and a few blackouts to get it is worth it! Maybe!!

Richard Page
Reply to  Simonsays
June 14, 2022 11:01 am

Amusing because the cause of the shortfall was due to huge demand for heating due to the cold weather they’re currently experiencing. Southeast Australia is expecting snowfalls as part of the ‘polar blast’ bringing cold weather, thunderstorms and freezing rain to the eastern coast.

Drake
Reply to  Richard Page
June 14, 2022 5:40 pm

And in AUS, are the blocking the installation of gas heat or subsidizing the use of electric heat in new buildings?

That, will, of course, increase the impact of cold weather on the electric grid.

2hotel9
June 14, 2022 3:43 am

Every moron who supports this shit deserves to sit in the dark and starve.

Derg
Reply to  2hotel9
June 14, 2022 5:35 am

See Simon, Lloydo and Nick. They attend the church of unreliable energy.

Carlo, Monte
Reply to  Derg
June 14, 2022 7:03 am

Dark energy,

Old Man Winter
Reply to  2hotel9
June 14, 2022 5:36 am

I’d like to see this in the US (Oz- Biden = Albanese):

gas2pric.jpg
Last edited 22 days ago by Old Man Winter
Drake
Reply to  Old Man Winter
June 14, 2022 5:45 pm

And with smart meters, government can selectively black out individual houses and businesses when production cannot meet the need. Start with the homes of the highest ranking elected green and leftists, then their underlings in the government and the boards that have pushed the “renewables”, all old and present who voted for this crap, then to all NGOs that support “green” and all their employees and offices, then work your way to the registered greens and leftists.

Conservatives should not be punished for the actions of the left as we are by inflation and fuel prices in the US.

Alastair gray
June 14, 2022 3:52 am

The more outs of colour we have the sooner the dumb greens will catch on that renewables are not the answer I look forward to seeing the depowering of grids in UK, USA and EU this winter. Nothing gets the peasantry reaching for the pitchforks like a dose of cold and famine

Peter Wells
Reply to  Alastair gray
June 14, 2022 4:43 pm

Why should I believe the dumb greens will catch on?

John Garrett
June 14, 2022 4:05 am

Amazing.

I always assumed this kind of stupidity wouldn’t happen in Oz because nobody could possibly be dumber than the climate crackpots in the U.S.

Old Man Winter
Reply to  John Garrett
June 14, 2022 5:28 am

I always had the European greenies that I saw there 40 yrs ago as the “Gold Standard”, followed by
our California “climate crackpots.” Oz has quickly closed the gap & has at least tied- if not
overtaken- them considering the recent elections & the recall of Soros’ San Francisco prosecutor.
The lack of Oz resistance to the CCC- “Covid Concentration Camps”- was a foreboding sign that your
rise to possibly the silver medal was imminent. I think our Californians were slowed down a bit by
the BLM (Buy Large Mansions) riots. If the rioting & crime rate slows down, you’ll need to put on
your track shoes to keep your silver medal!

Last edited 22 days ago by Old Man Winter
June 14, 2022 4:07 am

How Did Watts Up With That Miss This?

Huge victory for scientific truth, and empirical proof for scientific fraud…

The revised Second Law of Thermodynamics, where ‘back radiation’ (the foundation upon which ‘climate change’ stands) is present in the Earth’s Energy Budget…

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/langley/what-is-earth-s-energy-budget-five-questions-with-a-guy-who-knows

But missing is the ‘back radiation’ on the left side of the graph for the incoming radiation (77.1 Wm2) that’s directly absorbed by the atmosphere. Opps!

NASA’s earlier graph of the ‘Earth’s Energy Budget’ affirms the Second Law of Thermodynamics by omitting ‘back radiation’…

https://www.nasa.gov/pdf/62319main_ICS_Energy.pdf

Send emails to NASA informing the publicly funded agency that the big lie of ‘back radiation’ is out of the closet…

https://www.nasa.gov/about/contact/index.html

beng135
Reply to  Dean M Jackson
June 14, 2022 10:11 am

Ignorant. The First Law is all that’s needed to analyze radiation budgets. The Second Law is not required.

Last edited 22 days ago by beng135
Richard Page
Reply to  Dean M Jackson
June 14, 2022 11:02 am

F#@! Hugh Victory!

Coeur de Lion
June 14, 2022 4:31 am

I’m slavering for this story to appear on BBC

fretslider
Reply to  Coeur de Lion
June 14, 2022 5:22 am

So, how long have you got?

H.R.
Reply to  Coeur de Lion
June 14, 2022 6:24 am

Drink lots of liquids to avoid dehydration.

Duane
June 14, 2022 5:46 am

Energy is also pretty tightly regulated here in the USA, with the exception of Texas. But here power producers can always request a price increase to reflect their actual cost of fuel, or by including an added fuel cost fee to the power bills of their customers, and most if not all states here cooperate in approving the increase. To demand that producers absorb a loss over something they have no control over is just ridiculously incompetent government administration.

Jim Gorman
Reply to  Duane
June 14, 2022 7:30 am

Most power generators here in the U.S. are publicly owned, i.e., stockholders provide the investments of capital and not only expect but are owed a return on their investments. The regulators can not force companies to operate at a loss since this would abrogate the companies fiduciary responsibilities to its shareholders.

Old Man Winter
Reply to  Jim Gorman
June 14, 2022 11:34 am

Since a contract’s only as good as the signatories, right now I absolutely don’t trust those
representing the government concerning the Constitutional contract, especially because of
the powers it gives to the president in emergencies. During the Great Recession, regulators
changed the rules on Wall Street without facing resistance. True-dope did the same thing in
Canada to villainize the protesting truckers. Here in the US, we’re still under a Wuhan flu
national emergency which allowed gubmints to abuse us. Forcing companies to do things
would be small potatoes for these bullies!

zemlik
June 14, 2022 5:48 am

amazing that not that long ago people existed without electrical devices.

Bryan A
Reply to  zemlik
June 14, 2022 6:15 am

People existed without electricity and whales were scared
People exist with electricity and whales are sacred

Drake
Reply to  Bryan A
June 14, 2022 5:49 pm

Nice.

May I use that when among waco leftists?

Last edited 22 days ago by Drake
Bryan A
Reply to  Drake
June 15, 2022 6:10 am

Feel Free

H.R.
Reply to  zemlik
June 14, 2022 6:49 am

Even more amazing is that people were suckered into getting rid of all that old tech that had been developed for a non-electrical world and were lured into buying electrical devices with the promise of affordable reliable electricity.

If only they would have known we would come around full circle, they would have kept their oil lamps, ice boxes, carpet beaters, root cellars, smoke houses, hand saws, grist mills, wash tubs and wash boards. milking stools, milk buckets, milk cans, and butter churns.

But nooooo… No foresight whatsoever. They just didn’t see unreliables coming down the pike and that they might need those things again. Sold the lot of them off or tossed them. Big dummies.

[😉 definitely a 😉needed]

Graemethecat
Reply to  H.R.
June 15, 2022 12:36 am

If Nick Stokes and Loydo get their way, these devices will be making a comeback.

Bryan A
Reply to  Graemethecat
June 15, 2022 6:14 am

Although the Milking Stools and associated Cans and Butter Churns will be gathering dust as they also want to get rid of Cows

Rich Lambert
Reply to  zemlik
June 14, 2022 10:34 am

And city streets were ankle deep in horse manure.

Dan
June 14, 2022 7:00 am

Next step will be a government takeover of those power plants. Then the plants will always obey the order to turn on production. But wait… who pays for the cost of the fuel at these high prices if the cost of producing the electricity goes up and the politicians don’t want to raise rates? Then you can expect either a) some kind of means-tested price hike that only the rich (aka middle class) will pay or b) out of a general but “temporary” tax increase for those in higher income brackets.

Cost shifting to upper income brackets is always the first step towards socialist dystopia because its so popular to make the rich “pay their fair share”. Its a great scheme until the government runs out of other peoples money, as the great Margaret Thatcher once said.

Of course, there will be no cost-benefit evaluation of these green policies, no questioning of whether CO2 really is the primary driver of recent warming, no questioning of government massaging of temperature data in ways that just happen to fit the AGW narrative.

DMacKenzie
Reply to  Dan
June 14, 2022 8:10 am

The central planner’s plan IS to take over the powergrid, in fact all energy industries. It’s probably part of the back room agenda behind a number of present grid weakening strategies The oil industry has experience with being “nationalized” in many countries and know that failing to supply as a price negotiating tactic would result government takeover within days.

Gordon A. Dressler
June 14, 2022 7:06 am

From the above article:
” ‘The price cap unintentionally means that some plants can’t recover their fuel costs . . .’, the spokesperson said.”

Thereby reflecting the dismal knowledge the spokesperson has about the results of intentionally capping prices.

Reply to  Gordon A. Dressler
June 14, 2022 10:47 am

The “spokesperson” was “A spokesperson for the Australian Energy Council, which represents major power generators including AGL, EnergyAustralia and Origin”

Drake
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 14, 2022 5:52 pm

SO?? Did he lie?

What exactly is the point of that post Nick?

Reply to  Drake
June 14, 2022 8:40 pm

According to Gordon Dressler above
Thereby reflecting the dismal knowledge the spokesperson has”
I think he thought it was AEMO.

markl
June 14, 2022 7:53 am

So the power was available but just not economical to access it. I smell nationalization of power companies. Then they’ll announce nuclear is the only solution. Once in control of Aus electricity they’ll tax and charge the hell out of it and brag about the new found reliability they brought/manipulated.

Jim Gorman
Reply to  markl
June 14, 2022 10:00 am

Oh God. Can you imagine the government in charge of a NUCLEAR power plant?

Rich Davis
Reply to  Jim Gorman
June 14, 2022 4:54 pm

Like nuclear submarines for example?

I despise government but think it makes sense from a security (nuclear proliferation or terror threat) perspective to put the Navy in charge of nukes colocated with military bases.

Drake
Reply to  Jim Gorman
June 14, 2022 5:54 pm

Well actually I can.

There are Many on US Navy ships, where there has never been an “nuclear” accident that caused anyone any physical harm.

Michael in Dublin
June 14, 2022 7:58 am

This could not happen to a nicer government.
Perhaps the public should make fires under their posteriors.

No Name Guy
June 14, 2022 10:21 am

The withdrawals were prompted by the Australian Energy Market Operator’s (AEMO) decision to put a cap on spiralling prices that electricity generators are charging for wholesale power, which crimped the profit margin of some generators, which are battling coal prices that are soaring because of sanctions on Russian exports.
But the electricity market is tightly regulated and AEMO has powers, designed to prevent blackouts, which enable it to force generators to fire up units and start supplying electricity to the grid. Whenever AEMO does this, companies are awarded compensation.
AEMO was unusually forthright in a public statement yesterday when it said that directly after price caps were imposed on power companies “available offers were reduced”. “

If only they’d understand the basics of economics, as taught by the Austrian School. Price controls result in shortages, period, full stop. By putting price caps in place, they INSURE that some generators will withdraw their supply, as their costs are above the capped price. Duh?!?!?!

Things happen on the margin – set the controlled price below the marginal producers cost and you lose that marginal producer. Funny how it’s so difficult to get that basic concept through to those that think they can control markets.

Peta of Newark
June 14, 2022 11:40 am

Wouldn’t now if it still applies but aaaaages ago I stumbled upon A Figure which piqued my interest.
It was that, at whichever time agaes ago it was, that there was more electrical generating capacity under the bonnets/hoods of the cars of this world than there was ‘proper’ installed generating capacity.
Car alternators obviously

Bring that up-to-date where it’s been suggested more than once, that the batteries of electric cars be used as ‘Grid Storage’ balancing peaker device things.
(Such are the capabilities of the new smart meters being installed in UK houses – a smart meter for the house and a separate one for the car. One that can not only be remotely disconnected but can also discharge your car with equal facility to its charging ability)

Why not use that technology now?
Have an inverter and meter installed and if the grid looks like falling over, ask folks to attach said inverter via some ‘jump leads’ to their cars/trucks/whatevers and then start the engine.
Even a modest little motor should be able to bump 500Watts into an ailing grid and arrest a complete collapse and blackout.
A big truck should be good for a couple of kW at least

Don’t especially need a financial reward – howzabout a day’s free parking or a day’s relief from the local congestion charge, or motorway toll etc etc sort of thing.

(I can sense even now, just suggesting such a thing, the Evil Vibes emanating from any greenies reading this – can’t you too?)

Last edited 22 days ago by Peta of Newark
Peter Wells
Reply to  Peta of Newark
June 14, 2022 4:55 pm

And what happens when all the automotive batteries need recharging and it is time to go to work? Of course, there is also the problem of all that fuel cost and CO2 emissions for the cars which also have engines.

H.R.
Reply to  Peter Wells
June 15, 2022 3:12 pm

??? I read it as Peta suggesting supplying off the alternators, not the batteries, Peter. The batteries would remain charged.

It’s an interesting, outside the box idea, but the exhaust…

…and then the greenies have the sads again.

Drake
Reply to  Peta of Newark
June 14, 2022 5:57 pm

Sorry Peta but  “howzabout a day’s free parking or a day’s relief from the local congestion charge, or motorway toll etc etc sort of thing” are ALL financial rewards.

Joel
June 14, 2022 11:55 am

. . . which are battling coal prices that are soaring because of sanctions on Russian exports.

Can somebody explain that statement. How does coal get more expensive due to sanctions on Russia? I though Australia was a coal exporter.

Richard Page
Reply to  Joel
June 14, 2022 12:21 pm

Supply and Demand curve. If you increase the price of available coal with sanctions and the rest of the coal exporters are unable to make up the shortfall then prices will go up with the scarcity until the point where the sanctioned coal is suddenly economical once again. Just because Australia exports coal does not mean it has a ready supply of coal just waiting to shovel onto ships to send overseas.

Joel
Reply to  Richard Page
June 14, 2022 2:29 pm

Shouldn’t the Aussie govt be reprimanding the coal miners for charging so much for their coal? After all, their production costs did not rise because Russian stopped exporting so much coal.

Richard Page
Reply to  Joel
June 14, 2022 4:10 pm

If the bottom suddenly dropped out of the coal industry and coal miners weren’t even able to give it away, then would you advocate for the Australian government to buy up all the coal at a pre-collapse level to help them out? If foreign markets are willing to pay x amount for coal then coal is now worth x – it’s a very simple lesson to learn.

Drake
Reply to  Richard Page
June 14, 2022 6:11 pm

Yep, that is why where are so many buggy whip companies still operation in NYC!

MarkW
Reply to  Joel
June 14, 2022 5:38 pm

Prices are set by supply and demand, not costs.
The only role costs play is that when price drops below cost, supply disappears.

Drake
Reply to  Joel
June 14, 2022 6:10 pm

I don’t know what is happening in the AUS coal mines BUT if they are increasing production to meet the higher demand I can guarantee that the average per ton cost of production HAS increased.

The mining companies would need more miners and/or work them longer hours increasing the labor expenses. They would be reopening mines or areas of mines that were shut down because they were less productive increasing per ton costs. They may need new equipment to mine and move the coal. The trains that carry the coal to the docks may not be of sufficient numbers to meet the higher demand, thus increasing the cost of shipping.

I am not in the coal business, but I remember the days of the oil embargo. I lived in Hampton Virginia, which neighbors the shipping terminals for the coal trains from the mines in West Virginia and western Virginia. The tracks were full of loaded coal cars and over a hundred coal ships were sitting at anchor in the Chesapeake Bay waiting to be filled to carry the coal to Japan among other closer destinations. Back then there was the ability to use coal in place of oil. Now the “first” world’s government are tearing down coal generation plants so that will no longer be an option.

Oh, but “renewables” will provide ALL the energy we need by 2030, or some such BU!! Sheep.

Nik
June 14, 2022 1:15 pm

Since operating at a loss is apparently expected of power companies, why don’t the regulators and other politicians involved in constraining the power companies cut their own salaries as a show of good faith?

Bob
June 14, 2022 1:40 pm

Anytime government politicians, administrators and bureaucrats get involved things go to hell.

Peter East