Have you ever wondered how many photographs there are of submarines that have traffic lights in the background? No, neither have I.

The Strategist: Navies Must Go Zero Carbon

Guest essay by Eric Worrall

Don’t mention the “N” word; The Strategist thinks the New Zealand Navy receiving money from the Treasury, then paying that money back to the Treasury to purchase carbon credits is some kind of achievement. And they should consider purchasing an electric tender for VIPs.

Navies must reduce their carbon emissions in the face of climate change

30 Mar 2021 | Anthony Bergin

The Royal New Zealand Navy recently launched its own journal, which aims to build the service’s professionalism and ‘engage and exchange views with all those who have an interest in naval and maritime affairs’. The most eye-catching contribution in the inaugural edition is by the RNZN’s chief naval architect, Chris Howard, with the provocative title ‘Toward a zero carbon navy’. It’s a fascinating read.

In November 2019, New Zealand’s parliament passed the Climate Change Response (Zero Carbon) Amendment Act. Net emissions of all greenhouse gases, except methane, are to be reduced to zero by 2050. The act requires all parts of society to examine their emissions levels and reduce them wherever possible and practicable.

There aren’t any net-zero-carbon navies. But the RNZN is the only navy paying into an emissions trading scheme. It pays New Zealand’s treasury a capped price of NZ$25 per tonne of carbon dioxide equivalent and receives a substantial rebate for fuel assessed as burned overseas on task. That’s because those emissions are deemed international and so fall outside the scope of the national scheme.

While not sceptical, Howard is realistic about the difficulties of reducing the carbon footprints of navies: ‘[F]or the next few decades, it seems probable that most naval ships worldwide will continue to rely on diesel fuel.’ But he suggests that the RNZN could, for example, showcase a green-ship technological commitment by acquiring an all-electric vessel as a tender or future VIP barge. (New Zealand’s first all-electric passenger ferry is currently being constructed locally.) Autonomous maritime vessels such as solar-powered wave gliders could also help monitor New Zealand’s large offshore zone.

Read more: https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/navies-must-reduce-their-carbon-emissions-in-the-face-of-climate-change/

Zero carbon nuclear reactors for ships are a mature technology, and can be scaled right down – the smallest NASA fission reactors generate 10KW or less. So it seems entirely feasible to build reactors to power every class of naval ship other than small tenders.

But New Zealand is so anti-nuclear they don’t even want visits from US warships.

There are no serious alternatives to nuclear power, the days of naval sailboats are long gone. So New Zealand appears to be focussing on token gestures, like a circular carbon credit money shuffling system between the Treasury and the Navy, adding a bit of bio-diesel which they haven’t got the means to produce themselves, and wondering if they should build a battery powered boat for VIP photo opportunities.

New Zealand might think they don’t need a serious Navy, but New Zealand would be an obvious staging place for an international response to an attempt to invade Australia – large enough to supply food and a base of operations, far enough from Australia to be outside the range of all but the longest range bombers. A hypothetical aggressor might decide to attack New Zealand first, at the very least they might attempt to destroy New Zealands’ ports and maritime infrastructure, and block New Zealand’s harbours with wrecked civilian ships, if they think New Zealand is an easy target.

Nuclear submarines at least would be a tremendous low carbon deterrent. Even if port and maritime infrastructure in Australia and New Zealand was destroyed by long range bombardment, a decent fleet of Australian or New Zealand Nuclear submarines could seriously hamper long naval supply lines, by sneaking in, destroying convoy ships, then a quick sprint underwater to San Diego or Hawaii for resupply.

Both New Zealand and Australian politicians are too timid to embrace this obvious defensive strategy. The conventional submarines Australia favours would be utterly dependent on resupply from Australia, they don’t have the range of nuclear submarines.

4.9 10 votes
Article Rating
143 Comments
Oldest
Newest Most Voted
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Edward Katz
March 30, 2021 6:10 pm

No doubt the Chinese and Russian fleets will be the first ones to embrace this theory.

AndyHce
Reply to  Edward Katz
March 30, 2021 8:57 pm

These people, and many like them elsewhere, are easy competition to the most stupid crazy religion ever.

Joseph Zorzin
Reply to  AndyHce
March 31, 2021 2:47 am

The new religion needs a name- Mannism?

BobM
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
March 31, 2021 7:28 am

Omannism.

Patrick healy
Reply to  BobM
April 1, 2021 4:46 am

Onanism?

Neo
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
March 31, 2021 9:22 am

Named after the evil Dr Mann in the movie Interstellar (2014) ?

Last edited 3 months ago by Neo
Ruleo
Reply to  Neo
March 31, 2021 5:37 pm

Wha? He saved the species with his plan.

Observer
Reply to  Edward Katz
March 31, 2021 6:35 pm

NZ has a population of ~5M. They can’t afford a nuke sub fleet.

Meanwhile, Russia has absolutely no interest in invading NZ, Australia, or even Europe. But they make a nice hobgoblin for your MIC.

Mr.
March 30, 2021 6:13 pm

I remember back when (now UN bludger) ex NZ prime minister Helen Clark massively defunded the NZ military.

She responded to the outrage by patriotic NZ citizens by saying “we don’t need all this capability, we’ve got Australia between us and any threats”

Many NZ citizens at the time were calling for Clark to be charged with treason.

Patrick MJD
Reply to  Mr.
March 30, 2021 8:22 pm

She was a great PM. She raised in come tax on the very rich, those earning NZ$60,000 to 39% from 33%. She was great. Do I need a /sarc off tag?

Davidf
Reply to  Patrick MJD
March 30, 2021 8:42 pm

And her protege, has just done exactly the same

Bill Powers
Reply to  Davidf
March 31, 2021 6:50 am

There is no limit to how much of your money Government can spend. Here In they U.S. we call it the Wimpy System of Taxation/expenditure. They will gladly pay you Tuesday (2050) for the hamburger to feed the Navy Today.

Tom Halla
March 30, 2021 6:16 pm

Yeah. The US should transfer older Los Angeles class subs to Australia and New Zealand, but some of the politicians are too squeamish to accept them.
If they actually believed in CAGW, going nuclear is the only currently existing way to go carbon dioxide emissions free, but the greens are such tech ignoramuses that they may actually believe wind and solar are viable.

Anon
Reply to  Tom Halla
March 30, 2021 7:18 pm

New Zealand could really lead the way here by returning its navy to the Age of Sail. It would not take much to get Admiral Nelson’s old flagship, the HMS Victory, refitted and provisioned for frontline service.

fred250
Reply to  Anon
March 30, 2021 8:47 pm

comment image

Last edited 3 months ago by fred250
Alan M
Reply to  fred250
March 30, 2021 11:06 pm

Probably just as dangerous as the current Navy

Neo
Reply to  fred250
March 31, 2021 9:27 am

Probably has a tiny RADAR profile for stealth attacks

Last edited 3 months ago by Neo
Reply to  Anon
March 31, 2021 8:50 am

As far as the German / European Marine Helicopters sufferd from corrosion and rust,
the German orderd assault riffles G36 are not able to hit precisely a target (176,000 bought) when temperatures increase. hot shot and / or air temperature, German submarines can’t be repaired because of lack of spareparts, there is not much to fear from that side 😀

Example
Example

James Beaver
Reply to  Tom Halla
March 31, 2021 6:40 am

Those old L.A. class subs would be too expensive to refurbish. It would be cheaper to build new designs.

Curious George
March 30, 2021 6:20 pm

“Net emissions of all greenhouse gases, except methane, are to be reduced to zero.”
The worst greenhouse gas is water vapour.

Charles Higley
Reply to  Curious George
March 30, 2021 6:36 pm

However, neither CO2 or water vapor are greenhouse gases (the term was fabricated).

They are more accurately called radiative gases because they actively convert energy in the air to IR that is lost to space (downward IR is reflected because the surface is always colder than this IR).

At night, this conversion is unopposed which is why nights are always colder as they actively cools the air. It is during the day that these gases are saturated with energy and basically absorbing and emitting constantly, making them a wash, with no effect on air temperature. Methane and other gases are the same issue but with much lower concentrations, with no overall effect.

Patrick MJD
Reply to  Charles Higley
March 30, 2021 6:55 pm

Indeed the term greenhouse gas is an oxymoron.

AndyHce
Reply to  Patrick MJD
March 30, 2021 8:59 pm

Really? What is that gas they pump into greenhouses?

Rory Forbes
Reply to  AndyHce
March 30, 2021 10:44 pm

CO2

Patrick MJD
Reply to  AndyHce
March 31, 2021 1:15 am

How do greenhouses work?

Graemethecat
Reply to  Patrick MJD
March 31, 2021 4:28 am

By suppressing convection. Greenhouses have vents in the roof which are opened when the temperature is too high.

DonM
Reply to  Graemethecat
March 31, 2021 10:35 am

so, scale up wind towers 5,000 feet high to mimic the greenhouse concept and directly cool the surface to the upper cold regions. ‘simple’ (for the simpleminded).

or find a highroller (or use govt money) & put a fan/generator in the giant tower and you get free energy as you cool the earth. again, ‘simple’ (for the simpleminded)

I don’t have a contact number for Joe to let him in on this ‘simple’ concept.

maybe Griff can help spread the word of this ‘simple’ concept.

Lrp
Reply to  DonM
March 31, 2021 1:15 pm

A shredder would work better

Roger Taguchi
Reply to  Charles Higley
March 31, 2021 8:31 am

“downward IR is reflected because the surface is always colder than this IR”
.
This is false for several reasons. First IR has no temperature. Second IR is not reflected by the surface.

lee
Reply to  Curious George
March 30, 2021 6:52 pm

Yes. And it’s not even “all anthropogenic GHG’s”.
“set a new domestic greenhouse gas emissions reduction target for New Zealand to: 

  • reduce net emissions of all greenhouse gases (except biogenic methane) to zero by 2050″

https://www.mfe.govt.nz/climate-change/zero-carbon-amendment-act

Last edited 3 months ago by lee
RelPerm
Reply to  Curious George
March 30, 2021 7:51 pm

No more saunas in Finland 😟

AndyHce
Reply to  Curious George
March 30, 2021 8:58 pm

Or is that “the best”.

Kevin
March 30, 2021 6:21 pm

If NZ thinks it needs a navy, they should skip the carbon nonsense and get ultra quiet diesel electric subs to patrol local waters. Nuclear subs are great for long term ocean patrols or to put nuclear missiles in place. NZ has no need fir rither.

Izaak Walton
Reply to  Eric Worrall
March 30, 2021 8:43 pm

Actually if you want to stop drug smugglers you need to inspect more container ships and planes. Most drugs enter the country that way. Or you could legalise drugs and thus save billions of dollars spent every year that has almost no effect except to keep profits high for the suppliers.

Drake
Reply to  Izaak Walton
March 30, 2021 9:10 pm

Prostitution, gambling, guns and drugs, all illegal MOST places and all the basis of most gang activity.

PCman999
Reply to  Izaak Walton
March 30, 2021 9:38 pm

If that were true then get rid of all laws. Ultimate green plan, legalize all dangerous behavior and ‘reduce the surplus population’ – Bah Humbug!

Izaak Walton
Reply to  PCman999
March 30, 2021 9:51 pm

Why not legalise dangerous behaviour in a democratic society? As long as you only harm yourself what grounds does the government have for criminalising it? Or at least countries need to take a risk based approach. Compared to drinking most drugs are significantly less harmful and do less damage to the community. But irrationality appears to be the rule — when Prof. David Nutt pointed out that ecstasy was less dangerous than horse riding the UK government sacked him rather than listening to the evidence.

Marc
Reply to  Izaak Walton
March 30, 2021 10:18 pm

The problem is that many heavy drug users harm a lot more than just themselves. They do that two ways. First, property crimes by those addicted to an array of drugs increases in areas with high levels of use. That’s just a fact. Second, some of them end up as wards of the state. As such they drain money from society by using emergency rooms as their primary care doctors. They also become a burden on society through use of public housing, food stamps and other social programs.

Izaak Walton
Reply to  Marc
March 30, 2021 10:26 pm

Marc,
Firstly much of that damage would disappear if drugs were legal and affordable. Secondly exactly the same argument holds for alcohol and smoking. Both cause far more damage than illegal drugs and also are more intrinsically dangerous than many illegal drugs. So why is alcohol legal and not other drugs?

Jeff Alberts
Reply to  Izaak Walton
March 30, 2021 10:36 pm

Take a trip to Seattle and see what legalizing drugs does to a city.

Graemethecat
Reply to  Jeff Alberts
March 31, 2021 4:31 am

San Francisco and LA also. The sidewalks are littered with needles and human faeces.

Derg
Reply to  Izaak Walton
March 31, 2021 12:44 am

George Floyd didn’t care that drugs were illegal.

Neo
Reply to  Izaak Walton
March 31, 2021 9:38 am

Just consider what each drug would do to a driver of an 18 wheeler traveling down the road with a multi-ton load and those he may come in contact with.
Imagine you are driving one of those SmartCars or a Cooper Mini.

Last edited 3 months ago by Neo
DonM
Reply to  Izaak Walton
March 31, 2021 12:15 pm

Legal & AFFORDABLE.

You had to add that qualifier….

How much should the heroin & meth be subsidized to keep it both safe and accessible the typical guy sleeping in the sidewalk. I mean, how much can that guy afford?

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  Izaak Walton
March 31, 2021 5:28 am

Izaak, you need to understand numbers a little better. Yes, alcohol can be addictive and can ruin lives. But the percentage of people ruining their lives with alcohol is very low. Then look at how many heroin users lead normal lives. I know it is anecdotal, but Colorado police noticed a rise in serious auto accidents when marijuana was legalized. I would like to see some serious research that backs up your argument, not gibberish from an activist group.

Ruleo
Reply to  Trying to Play Nice
March 31, 2021 8:44 pm

Colorado became fully Cali back in 2014 when weed legalized. I visited there, homeless camps out to the suburbs all up and down the I-225 corridor; Colorado residents, don’t come at me “there’s no camps”. I saw them. My friends living there documented the locations. The homeless are literally in suburban streets. It’s not just Denver downtown.

DonM
Reply to  Izaak Walton
March 31, 2021 12:12 pm

Izzak,

As a socialist, you should know that the activities of the individual (that’s not a dirty word yet is it?) are ALL intertwined with the greater good.

If I am doing more heroin than you, and being less productive than you, then I am harming the social fabric, right?

You, like other socialists, are the standard for your own societal discrimination/discretion. So, eventually, you would turn on the druggies like a rabid dog if you think they were harming your utopia.

Observer
Reply to  PCman999
April 1, 2021 4:23 am

If you think the government has the right to tell you what to ingest because of possible harms to others, then you’re pretty much in the ballpark of people who think we should cease using fossil fuels because of CAGW, and wearing masks & shutting down businesses “if it saves just one life”.

The fact is: virtually all human activity has the potential to harm someone else. Literally tens of millions of people take illegal drugs every weekend and do no harm whatsoever.

Alcohol is far worse than many illegal drugs in most respects. People under the influence of MDMA or marijuana rarely initiate violence. You can’t say the same about alcohol.

Last edited 3 months ago by Observer
meab
Reply to  Izaak Walton
March 31, 2021 11:39 am

Stupid comment, Isick.

You don’t inspect the ships and planes to catch smuggling – you inspect the containers and passengers when they’re offloaded.

I live where Cannabis was legalized. The percentage of drivers in fatal crashes who tested positive for THC increased from about 9 percent in the five-year period before legalization to about 18 percent in the five years afterward. A lot of innocent people died as the direct result of legalization. That’s not “almost no effect”.

Besides, smuggling by cargo ship and plane might be the majority in New Zealand but it’s not in the U.S.

According to the New York Times

“The majority of illegal drugs enter the United States in an assortment of vehicles, with drugs hidden in secret compartments in door panels or the roof, gas tanks, tires and even engines.”

March 30, 2021 6:22 pm

The New Zealand Navy is mainly on short-term loan from Australia.

TonyL
March 30, 2021 6:28 pm

The submarine is USS Albacore. It is on display and open to the public.
Scenic and historic Portsmouth, NH. Not far from where it was built at the Portsmouth Naval Shipyard in Kittery, ME

EARL T SMITH
Reply to  TonyL
March 31, 2021 2:51 am

Just an interesting footnote. That boat, though diesel electric hold the worlds speed record. On one of her numerous design versions she had a silver battery installed. So after spending all day charging the battery she set out to run fast. Operating at a 20 minute rate for full discharge of the battery she ran a measured course in record time that is not likely to be beaten. Nukes are designed for long endurance not speed, they do go very fast because they all have an “Albacore” hull design but the power plant is designed for continuous operation not sprints.

James Beaver
Reply to  EARL T SMITH
March 31, 2021 6:52 am

I can assure you that nuclear fast attack subs can go very fast. How fast is classified, and thus speed records won’t be published.

EARL T SMITH
Reply to  James Beaver
March 31, 2021 10:38 am

As a ex nuke boat engineer I am slightly aware of their capability. but Albacore could dump a lot of power into the props at a rate beyond a nuke. She would then have to spend a whole day recharging the battery before going anywhere other than on the diesel. The limiting factor on a nuke boat is not even the nuke plant, it is the torque being placed on the shaft. Albacore was an experimental platform built to test out crazy ideas, so she spent quite some time in the shipyards being rebuilt. Notice the final design of the stern planes and rudder, that is a test that hasn’t been adopted by the fleet. Just as Nautilus was a test platform that incorporated a reactor. The hull is ancient and the reactor was a nightmare but Rickover promised she would stay in commission for 20 years. She was known a Building 571 at State Pier in New London but she lasted 20 years before she was decommissioned.

Chuck no longer in Houston
Reply to  EARL T SMITH
April 1, 2021 2:13 pm

Earl, I qualified on S1W in Idaho. That was a long time ago, and it was old and weird then.

neil bonsor
Reply to  James Beaver
March 31, 2021 1:50 pm

Nuclear subs are quite fast . They hold the power boat record for non-stop round the world in 60 days. However easily beaten by sail in 42 days !

Charles Higley
March 30, 2021 6:31 pm

It pays New Zealand’s treasury a capped price of NZ$25 per tonne of carbon dioxide equivalent and receives a substantial rebate for fuel assessed as burned overseas on task. That’s because those emissions are deemed international and so fall outside the scope of the national scheme.”

So, station the Navy most of the time international waters. Everyone knows that CO2 emitted elsewhere does nothing. For that matter, what they do not know is that CO2 emitted at home does nothing either. This is all virtue signaling and also trying to not totally destroy their navy. What a joke.

Editor
March 30, 2021 6:50 pm

Hey, that sub looks familiar! I assure you, it’s not in New Zealand. 🙂

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/03/17/submarines-in-the-winter-twilight/

Joel O'Bryan
Reply to  Ric Werme
March 30, 2021 9:24 pm

Arco, Idaho, the first town to ever in the whole world to be run by nuclear power from a nuclear reactor, has the Devil Boat, USN 666 conning tower in a town park there. Was there in September 2020 on my way up to Montana with RV and pups.

Unfortunately for the townfolks, their high school is also named Butte County High School, and their mascot is the “Pirates.”

.

Screen Shot 2021-03-30 at 9.17.57 PM.png
Joel O'Bryan
Reply to  Joel O'Bryan
March 30, 2021 9:25 pm

Arco Idaho, home of the Butte Pirates.

IMG_9388.JPG
DHR
Reply to  Joel O'Bryan
March 31, 2021 5:51 am

It’s called the HAWKBILL, a STURGEON Class nuclear powered submarine, not “Devil Boat”

Antonym
March 30, 2021 6:51 pm

NZ being the land of the Lord of the Rings scenery should train a number of sperm whales as vehicles for their sailors. Greener even than the Martians!

Patrick MJD
March 30, 2021 6:52 pm

Australian and New Zealand (NZ) politicians are hell bent of destroying their whole economies in the fight against “climate change”, NZ has the edge in the race to the bottom at the moment.

RoHa
March 30, 2021 7:00 pm

Obviously we need solar powered submarines.

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  RoHa
March 30, 2021 7:55 pm

I think that wind turbines would be better.

AndyHce
Reply to  Clyde Spencer
March 30, 2021 9:01 pm

Ocean currents could drive the turbines, no need for wind.

Graemethecat
Reply to  RoHa
March 31, 2021 4:34 am

No idea is ever too stupid for Progressive politicians.

RoHa
March 30, 2021 7:01 pm

Aircraft carriers have that huge deck space that could be covered in solar panels. That would produce plenty of electricity to run the ship and top up the batteries of the electric planes.

Anon
March 30, 2021 7:13 pm

Imagine what military documentaries will be like in the future:

“And at noon, on the following day, the attack petered out, as Patton’s army had exhausted its carbon credits and had to take up defensive positions.”

The Babylon Bee should be all over this! (lol)

Craig from Oz
March 30, 2021 7:21 pm

Lets be honest, New Zealand is defended by the All Blacks, a large overbite and the Australian Defence Force.

Also the fact they are left off a lot of world maps.

Face it, if it wasn’t for the warm glow of ANZAC we would throw rocks at them… or at least throw rocks at anyone not an All Black, cause those guys are scary.

Jokes aside, the hard fact is that New Zealand cannot even defend their own airspace. If they ever annoy you just hire a private jet and fly around mooning them. The best they can do is chase you with a transport aircraft and then ask another nation to arrest you when you land.

Another interesting observation is that China has recently been waving their little arms in the air and calling via media for Australia, the UK, the US and Canada need to end that little Left Wing Conspiracy Theory known as the Five Eyes Alliance.

China never seems to mention nation five – New Zealand – in these rants. Yes, Australia, UK, US and Canada are evil White Nations conspiring via Five Eyes to abuse the world and they must all immediately denounce denounce and defund… but not NZ, cause not even China takes them seriously.

Alan M
Reply to  Craig from Oz
March 30, 2021 8:14 pm

cause not even China takes them seriously.

Just like nobody takes the Wallabies seriously 😉

Rory Forbes
Reply to  Craig from Oz
March 30, 2021 10:55 pm

New Zealand is defended by their choice of politics, not to mention their choice of PM. They are determined to be the 1st modern country to regress back to developmentally retarded. They have become the embodiment cranial anusitis.

Kit P
March 30, 2021 7:24 pm

For all practical purposes NZ does not have a navy.

Token carbon credits for a token navy?

Is there a reason to invade NZ?

From what I remember from my days on US nuclear cruisers, NZ objected to nuclear weapons not nuclear reactors. US ships would not reveal if they were carrying nuclear weapons.

Is there a good reason to visit NZ? That is a serious question. Singapore and Hong Kong are exciting ports of call I have visited in the last 10 years. I would go back to Lisbon too. Got some interesting sea stories. Does NZ have a bar called Texas or bull fights.

Steve Case
Reply to  Kit P
March 30, 2021 7:50 pm

USS America CVA66 visited Wellington in 1968. As I recall the Kiwis were happy to have us spend money ashore on their very nice island. We most certainly had nukes aboard.

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  Kit P
March 30, 2021 8:04 pm

Is there a good reason to visit NZ?

Yes, it has been years since I had Kiwi pavlova dessert.

Stanley
Reply to  Clyde Spencer
March 30, 2021 10:14 pm

No wonder the Chicoms are pissed….used to be Chinese gooseberry pavlova.

Climate believer
Reply to  Kit P
March 31, 2021 12:15 am

“For all practical purposes NZ does not have a navy.”

Yes absolutely, a couple of twenty year old frigates, two offshore and two onshore patrol boats and three logistic vessels.

I might add for all practical purposes NZ does not have an Air Force either.

Old Retired Guy
Reply to  Kit P
March 31, 2021 6:50 am

NZ is a beautiful country and the people are great, though they have been completely brainwashed on climate. I used to visit regularly for work. I would agree with their ban on nuclear, but for the reason that the whole country is an earthquake waiting to happen, not for their convoluted thinking.

CD in Wisconsin
March 30, 2021 7:33 pm

“But New Zealand is so anti-nuclear they don’t even want visits from US warships.”

https://www.britannica.com/event/ANZUS-Pact

“ANZUS Pact, formally Pacific Security Treaty, security treaty between Australia, New Zealand, and the United States that was signed in San Francisco, Calif., on Sept. 1, 1951, for the purpose of providing mutual aid in the event of aggression and for settling disputes by peaceful means.”

***********

This is just my opinion, but any nation that is presumably allied with the United States should welcome visits from U.S. naval vessels if they value the alliance at all. If the nation does not welcome those naval vessels, then their presence in the alliance and their value to it should be questioned to say the least.

Furthermore, if New Zealanders think the world can reduce or eliminate CO2 emission without nuclear power, they are living in fantasy land. It isn’t going to happen folks.

CD in Wisconsin
Reply to  Eric Worrall
March 30, 2021 8:18 pm

Eric, I presume that U.S. naval vessels are welcome in Australian ports. Feel free to correct me if am wrong about that. Does Australia have nuclear powered naval vessels and/or nuclear power plants?

New Zealand sounds pacifist to me, but pacifism doesn’t guarantee anything in terms of your national defense and security.

OldCynic
Reply to  CD in Wisconsin
March 31, 2021 3:16 am

Alas, Australia has no nuclear anything except:

  • Lucas Heights research reactor – used to produce radio-isotopes for medical purposes
  • Environment Protection and Biodiversity Conservation Act 1999 (Cth) The passage of this Act was hijacked by the Greens and the Australian Democrats who would pass it only if it also contained a section to ban nuclear power stations
  • about one third of the world’s cheap uranium ore
  • zero nuclear subs. It has 8 new subs on order. To be built by the French, these are to be nuclear subs retrofitted with diesel electric engines. The cost is eye watering. They are expected to be obsolete before even the first is delivered. You’d laugh if it were not so tragic.
Patrick MJD
Reply to  Eric Worrall
March 30, 2021 8:26 pm

Once, they were warriors, but KFC got the better of them.

Davidf
Reply to  Eric Worrall
March 30, 2021 8:55 pm

Like most of the Western world, New Zealands political landscape is now largely determined by the urban vote. And like most other places, that populace is ignorant of recent or most any history, and tends to have socialist leanings.

Izaak Walton
Reply to  Davidf
March 30, 2021 10:11 pm

David,
I think you are talking about democracy. Most people in the western world live in cities so surely the political landscape should be determined by the urban vote.

Davidf
Reply to  Izaak Walton
March 31, 2021 12:04 am

Turkeys voting for Christmas

Jeff Alberts
Reply to  Izaak Walton
March 31, 2021 8:46 am

Yet they are fed by people in rural areas.

Davidf
Reply to  CD in Wisconsin
March 30, 2021 8:51 pm

Well, to be accurate, NZ never refused to have US warships visit – but, required that any such warship not be nuclear armed. The US Navy, as was and is their policy, refused to confirm or deny any ship is nuclear armed. Therefore, visits have been curtailed ever since.

Drake
Reply to  Davidf
March 30, 2021 9:25 pm

The US navy should help NZ get to net zero. Blockade all product which may produce co2, or were made with co2, or are transported by ships or plains that produce co2.

To keep the NZ politocs happy, use ships and subs that are powered by Nuclear reactors. We would not even need to just planes, just ram any ship heading to the islands and use particle beam weapons on any aircraft.

About 2 month of that should fix the politics in NZ.

AndyHce
Reply to  CD in Wisconsin
March 30, 2021 9:05 pm

It isn’t going to happen regardless.

Rory Forbes
Reply to  AndyHce
March 30, 2021 11:00 pm

Sooner or later they’ll grow out of electing Marxist feminists. They’ll soon learn that will eventually cause disaster.

CD in Wisconsin
Reply to  AndyHce
March 31, 2021 9:24 am

AndyHce:

Here in the U.S. we spends serious $$$ for our defense budget every year. And we do it not just for ourselves, but because of our commitment to our allies in Europe and the Pacific-East Asian region as well.

So what does NZ do? They ban our naval vessels from their ports. Sorry Andy, but do me a favor and look up the definition of the word ingrate.

Clyde Spencer
March 30, 2021 7:52 pm

I have a new hypothesis: The magic molecule CO2 causes insanity. How else could one explain the widespread affliction of irrationality if not something in the atmosphere. The intellectual Zombie-like behavior started just about the same time as the increase in CO2 was recorded. What else could it be? We don’t all drink from the same tap!

AndyHce
Reply to  Clyde Spencer
March 30, 2021 9:10 pm

Actually, whatever it is, it is pretty much the same as the episode at Jonestown.

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  AndyHce
April 1, 2021 3:20 pm

With apologies to my little furry friends, I think that it could be called the Lemming Syndrome.

Izaak Walton
March 30, 2021 8:37 pm

I have heard many insane arguments for increased military spending but this one takes the cake. Suggesting that NZ needs nuclear submarines just in case at some hypothetical point in the future an unknown country decides to invade Australia via the pacific ocean (instead of using Papa New Guinea) and NZ might be used as a staging post for a second invasion.

Now it is a fact that NZ’s defence force is essentially non-existence and can’t even stop illegal fishing vessels from fishing in NZ waters. But it doesn’t actually need one due to its isolation and the general fact that there is no serious risk of armed conflict in the immediate future that will involve any hostile navy going anywhere near NZ.

Izaak Walton
Reply to  Eric Worrall
March 30, 2021 9:56 pm

Eric,
While China may or may not make a move on Australia it is unlikely in the extreme that they would do it via sea and without invading any other nearby countries first. And while would China bother to go to all the trouble of invading when all it has to do is threaten to nuke Australia unless it surrenders.

As it stands every country without a nuclear deterrent is currently a helpless victim of nuclear armed countries. There is nothing NZ could do to stop any nuclear armed aggressor.

Davidf
Reply to  Eric Worrall
March 31, 2021 12:16 am

New Zealand is an odd place – land area larger than the UK, Exclusive Economic Zone 9th largest in the World, but population only half of Israel – 5 million versus 9.

Lrp
Reply to  Izaak Walton
March 31, 2021 1:41 am

That’s why Australia should get it’s own nukes

Jeff Alberts
Reply to  Izaak Walton
March 31, 2021 8:44 am

While China may or may not make a move on Australia it is unlikely in the extreme that they would do it via sea and without invading any other nearby countries first.”

You just contradicted your upstream statement.

Rory Forbes
Reply to  Eric Worrall
March 30, 2021 11:05 pm

With their current government and Prime Minister, New Zealand is more likely to welcome China than reject its advances. It appears they actually believe China’s virtue signalling about AGW.

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  Eric Worrall
March 31, 2021 5:42 am

China must have studied the war in the Pacific to see the Japanese strategy. It worked well for Japan, so it should work just as well for China. Or maybe they think that their population is so large they can leave huge military bases stranded in the Pacific with no supply lines.

Joe Shaw
Reply to  Trying to Play Nice
March 31, 2021 5:05 pm

I assume you are referring to the Japanese strategy in WWII. That Japanese strategy worked well for the first six months or so, but not so well in the long term.

Kit P
Reply to  Eric Worrall
March 31, 2021 7:10 am

China now has a larger navy than the USA

Why do people post links and not read them?

China has a navy that is just as capable as NZ. All their blue water ships can do is exercise with the USN and our allies to keep the sea lanes open.

When I work in China, China committed an act of war against the US. They do it every five or ten years. Our response is always the same. A second carrier task force steams up the South China sea.

If you watch closely the US demonstrates the ability to turn any foreign capital into a blob of glass without using nukes. For example, all the B-52 leave Barksdale AFB, refuel over Guam and fly over south Korea.

China is very happy for us to protect them from Japan. Japan is happy for us to protect them from China.

Cegjr
Reply to  Kit P
March 31, 2021 8:48 pm

At some future point the Japanese are going to die of old age without any young Japanese to replace them. (They aren’t replacing their own population) The last one can turn off the lights but the Chinese will quickly turn them back on.

Joel O'Bryan
March 30, 2021 9:11 pm

As long as the Kiwis keep sending sheep and cattle to feed hungry Chinese with their noodles, and doing the Haka thingy, they are safe. NZ really will be the last target on China’s list in the Pacific. China is hungry for metal minerals (iron ore and bauxite), coal, and uraniusm, which Australia has in spades. NZ not so much.

John Robertson
March 30, 2021 9:18 pm

NZ mastered virtue signalling before we ever heard of the phrase.
seems to me they have been systematically preparing their surrender for the last 50 years.
Maybe people do come to resemble their pets?
Perhaps what I observed there was the mindmeld with 70 million sheep.??.
Stranger things are possible..
Unless the real “influencer” is Cabbage or Kumara..

Izaak Walton
Reply to  John Robertson
March 30, 2021 10:03 pm

Who exactly is going to invade NZ? It is awful hard to practise surrendering when no-one cares enough about you to threaten you. Surely a more rational approach is to stop wasting money on military equipment that will rust long before it gets used in anger and either tax people less or put that money to good use.

Joel O'Bryan
Reply to  Izaak Walton
March 30, 2021 10:58 pm

The problem for Kiwis is they are completely dependent on industrial manufacturing complexes and capacities from 5000 km away in order to maintain their standard of living.
A standard of living they pay for mostly with exporting mutton, beef, and bringing in Eco tourism. Not very high tech.

Last edited 3 months ago by joelobryan
Derg
Reply to  Izaak Walton
March 31, 2021 12:50 am

“…put that money to good use.“

😉

PCman999
March 30, 2021 9:32 pm

Hey NZ, nuke is OK now, the EU says so! Nuke is green!

dk_
March 30, 2021 11:40 pm

I recommend woolen sails for NZed subs; triremes will be much less effective.

Warren
March 31, 2021 4:44 am

My wife’s cousin was an All Black lock. In the kitchen one day he accidentally stood on her toes. She’s never forgotten the pain.

Paul C
Reply to  Warren
March 31, 2021 5:09 am

He shouldn’t have been wearing his rugby boots in the kitchen 🙂 I recall that those small studs hurt even through the leather of boots.

Paul C
March 31, 2021 4:52 am

I presume they will also be seeking carbon-neutral gunpowder.

DonM
Reply to  Paul C
March 31, 2021 3:12 pm

They’ll just need to track the net use and pay into the mitigation fund 🙂

fretslider
March 31, 2021 5:34 am

Net emissions of all greenhouse gases, except methane, are to be reduced to zero by 2050.

That’s parliament off the hook, but it’s clearly become a competition to see who can be the most unhinged.

Army To Roll Out Electric Tanks To Fight Climate Change!

Electric tanks and vegetarian options in the mess are just some of the ways the Armed Forces will go greener, the Ministry of Defence has revealed.

https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpress.com/2021/03/30/army-to-roll-out-electric-tanks-to-fight-climate-change/

Beam me up, Scotty.

Cegjr
Reply to  fretslider
March 31, 2021 8:53 pm

Presumably the tanks will have to use rail guns since gunpowder releases CO2. Hoy many meters do you suppose the batteries will take the tank and fight with the rail gun simultaneously?

pwwatson8888
March 31, 2021 5:38 am

How retro – The English Navy was under SAIL under Admiral Lord Nelson. Having sailed across the Atlantic in five days I am all for returning to sail. And let’s return to Canons and Chain for weaponry. Hoo Rah!

very old white guy
March 31, 2021 5:48 am

as usual the mining and smelting never seems to enter their tiny minds.

Ed Zuiderwijk
March 31, 2021 6:55 am

I propose wind power. What’s could possibly be wrong with a good old-fashioned polynesian trimaran? Just needs a little upgrading. And politically correct and deferential to native cultures too.

Rusty
March 31, 2021 7:12 am

They can’t use gunpowder on their wooden, sail powered frigates as the reaction produces CO2.

fred250
March 31, 2021 7:17 am

Under the UN’s guidelines, prior to military engagement in a war, all militaries will negotiate and exchange carbon credits, ensuring a minimal carbon footprint. Wars will become carbon neutral. I would hope that New Zealand’s Navy will also spend a few million dollars on rainbow flags which would help ease social tensions.

Armies of the world could be SJWs and stop wars. It’s just common sense. It’s just the laughing stock of China, Russia, and North Korea.

(New Zealand’s navy could also do its part by just reducing their vessel’s speeds by 20%)

fred250
Reply to  fred250
March 31, 2021 8:57 pm

Moderators….. My name has been usurped

Identity theft.!

Last edited 3 months ago by fred250
Caligula Jones
March 31, 2021 7:29 am

 all-electric vessel as a tender or future VIP barge

Yes, and those VIPs should test this wonder vessel.

Out of sight of land.

With no backup.

Ok, give them paddles maybe.

Last edited 3 months ago by Caligula Jones
Olen
March 31, 2021 7:50 am

I imagine it is a lot easier to go green to save the planet than it is to go to war to save your country.

Rod Evans
March 31, 2021 8:13 am

Let’s be realistic here. NZ has no need of heavy military equipment to defend it. They have a bunch of painted men in grass skirts poking their tongues out and threatening to eat all invaders……
You know they are really getting angry, when they start thumping their chests and stomp about.
The rest of us think the Chinese might need a bit more of a deterrent to keep them away, should they decide to lay claim to a very nice South Pacific island group like NZ.
.

Brian
March 31, 2021 9:02 am

So are they going back to roundshot, grapeshot, and chainshot, for their munitions?

Maybe they’re thinking of bringing back flogging.

Robert of Texas
March 31, 2021 10:19 am

Countries that do not believe they need a serious navy, or army, or air force are usually the ones countries like the U.S. have to go save in the next big war. It’s getting to the point we will not be able to.

Worrying about CO2 emissions from war vessels and vehicles is one of the most stupid obsessions I have ever heard of. Do they think that the bullets, missiles, warheads, bombs, and various other explosives are carbon neutral? Or the burning facilities, vessels, and vehicles that they rip through?

I can just see the Chinese Army telling their leadership – “Yes, we are going to continue the attack as soon as our tanks are recharged, but first the sun has to come up and it will take 4 hours to charge them using our solar panels.”

How about the U.S. armed forces pledge to plant trees all over every country they end up over-running. If we had done that, there would be (by now dead) forests covering Iraq and Afghanistan. Greenies could feel good about all that carbon that would be removed from the air (they never pay attention long enough to realize the forests all died of dehydration). And the Iraqis and Afghanistan’s would have plenty of kindling wood for years to come.

I am all for the U.S. Navy to start building mostly nuclear vessels. They offer a huge logistics advantage in the case of a war. We need to have more than 2 ship building ports certified to build and repair navy nuclear vessels anyway. And this might finally get our butts into gear in researching more advanced reactors.

Last edited 3 months ago by Robert of Texas
Steve Z
March 31, 2021 12:16 pm

Maybe New Zealand will have to build a fleet of clipper ships. But what if the enemy is upwind?

It would be interesting to see the design of an underwater charging station for an electric submarine!

New Zealand is so far from other major land-masses that New Zealanders needn’t worry about the effects of their CO2 emissions elsewhere on the globe. To the south, the penguins would probably welcome a slight warming of the climate.

Jon R
March 31, 2021 1:10 pm

Back of my day the military purpose was killing people, I don’t know what it does now.

March 31, 2021 1:54 pm

Both New Zealand and Australian politicians are too timid to embrace this obvious defensive strategy. How to replace the timid with the bold? The bold are deeply concerned with the welfare of their fellow citizens, the timid not so much. New Zealand needs candidates for public office who care about their country enough to do anything to make it strong.

MAke New Zealand Great Again! MANZGA! Hmm. Make Us Great Again! MUGA! Maybe not. Slogans help, but fundamentally we must pour money into our armed forces, abandon the outdated “anti-nuclear” policy (we still operate X-ray machines in every town and city), forget about going “carbon” free and develop a credible defence strategy for the future.

In other words, please protect us from real threats.

yirgach
March 31, 2021 1:55 pm

If the RNZN was really interested in zero carbon, they would start with the heating and cooling issues.
A good cooling alternative, especially on submarines, is the installation of screen doors, fore and aft and on the Con tower. A natural green cooling chimney effect is created. Problem solved.

Bill
March 31, 2021 5:41 pm

So they’ll all be green when they blow the hell out of each other at sea. Shouldn’t they concentrate on being effective? Loony Toons

Jim G.
March 31, 2021 10:31 pm

I believe in other circles the scheme would be called money laundering.
In this case, the Navy’s budget is increased to allow for payment of carbon credits.
The Navy then pays the credits to the treasury that will then go to the general fund for other uses.

Regarding making all ships nuclear, check out how many companies make pressure vessels and steam generators.

Last I heard, the Japan facility had a backlog a decade+ long.

niceguy
April 3, 2021 9:43 pm

Global warming causes April 1st to occur every other day.

%d bloggers like this: