Tree Remnants Show Greta’s Thunberg’s Northern Sweden Was 3°C Warmer 9300 Years Ago…Trees Where There’s Tundra

From the NoTrickZone

By P Gosselin on 12. February 2021

9300-year old vegetation remnants found under receding glaciers in Northern Sweden show that the trees once grew where tundra exists today, meaning it was warmer.

Hat-tip: Kenneth Richard

A new Swedish publication titled New Presence Of Beaver (Castor fiber L) in the Scandes sustains warmer-than-present conditions and a patchily treed and rich mountainscape finds that trees once grew up to 700 meters above today’s current treeline in Northern Sweden (Lapland, locations 1 and 2).

Figure 1. Location of study areas in northern Sweden (Lapland). 1. Kårsaglaciären. 2. Tärna. Megafossils show much warmer climates 9000 years ago. 

Over the past 120 years the climate has warmed, and so there’s been glacier and ice patch shrinkage. This has unveiled earlier vegetation and life.

The concerned vegetational remnants that were found represent tree exclaves in ice-empty glacier cirques, the study says.

Found were megafossils of pinus sylvestris with signs of being gnawed by beaver (Castor fiber L.) from different sites in northern Sweden which today are tundra.

They age 9500-9300 cal. yr BP and are located 400-700 m above present-day tree lines.

There are many earlier studies showing the existence of megafossils from earlier forests once covered by glaciers:  (Schlüchter & Jörin 2004; Benedict et al. 2008; Nesje et al. 2011; Reckin 2013; Koch et al. 2014; Kullman & Öberg, 2020a, (Lundqvist 1969; Holmlund et al.1996; Lindgren & Strömgren 2001,

These exposed megafossil remnants represent former tree stands that were later on extirpated and entombed by snow and ice for many millennia. At -0.6°C/100 m lapse rate, it means it was then over 3°C warmer than now in this region at a time when atmospheric CO2 concentrations were well below 300 ppm.

Overviews of the studied glacier habitats, including adjacent meltwater ponds. Megafossil tree remains are found at these levels and even higher upslope. A. Kårsaglaciären. Photo: 2013-09-12. B. Tärnaglaciären. Photo: 2012-08-28. C. Murtserglaciären Photo: 2012-08-28. All sites display meltwater ponds in close association with the lower forefields, recently released from the ice. Images from here

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Tom Halla
February 13, 2021 6:23 pm

Oh no! But the only thing that matter are greenhouse gases?

George Tetley
Reply to  Tom Halla
February 14, 2021 1:53 am

Ah, GREENLAND ??????????

Robertvd
Reply to  Tom Halla
February 14, 2021 2:06 am

Nothing new. This has been known for a very long time.

Prof. Gernot Patzelt: Gletscher- und Waldentwicklung in alpinen Hochlagenhttps://youtu.be/glplSyZM7uE

http://notrickszone.com/2012/05/24/multiple-glacier-studies-show-wide-holocene-climate-variations-in-asia-and-europe/

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Robertvd
February 14, 2021 6:18 pm

Greta may not know it.

Let’s see: At one time it was warm enough to grow trees where they won’t grow today, and then it got cold enough to cover those trees with thick ice, and then it got warm enough again to melt the ice and uncover the tree stumps.

The Earth’s temperatures warm for a while, and then they cool for a while, and then they warm again for a while. A cyclical movement, Greta. See how easy that is, and the evidence is right there in the geologic record.

It was warmer then than now, Greta, as should be obvious. The Earth is cooling from that time, not warming. It’s only warming in the shortterm, whereas we need to look at the Big Picture when it comes to climate, and then we see the real story which is that CO2 is not overheating the world.

Additonally, the warmer periods in past human history have been the times when humans thrived on the Earth. We should not be afraid of a few more degrees of warmth in the future. That’s not to say we will see warmer temperatures in our lifetimes, and it’s certainly not to say that CO2 has anything to do with the climate, regardless of what it does. No evidence for that.

Last edited 13 days ago by Tom Abbott
Tom Gelsthorpe
Reply to  Tom Halla
February 14, 2021 7:08 am

The only thing that matters is doomsayers scaring the pants off a blinkered public with cherry-picked data, oversimplifications, and shameless falsehoods.

All the better to build careers as humbugs.

OK S.
February 13, 2021 6:24 pm

The paper seems to say there were no glaciers in that area for about 11,300 years.

• Megafossils of different tree species are exposed at the forefields of of receding glaciers and snow patches.

• They range in age between c. 11 700 and 4000 cal, yr BP, when temperatures were as most 3 °C higher than present and treelines 500-700 m above current levels.

Björn Eriksson
Reply to  OK S.
February 14, 2021 8:40 pm

Land rise the latest 10 000 years is in the hundreds of meters, which could explain treelines and temperature change.

Al Miller
February 13, 2021 6:39 pm

Shocking! I mean it never was about climate was it.

Dave Fair
February 13, 2021 6:40 pm

If it was 3C warmer and humankind flourished, what is the problem with an additional 3C?

Jean Parisot
Reply to  Dave Fair
February 13, 2021 6:42 pm

Warmer and wetter, with lots of CO2 would be ideal.

Ben Vorlich
Reply to  Jean Parisot
February 14, 2021 2:00 am

Speaking as a UK resident we’ve got it wet enough already, can we ensure extra wet goes to places that need it. I can live with a few Baltic blasts in exchange.

Robertvd
Reply to  Dave Fair
February 14, 2021 6:49 am
Bryan A
Reply to  Dave Fair
February 14, 2021 7:52 am

What is wrong with another 1.5 – 2C warming?
Not much!!
Unless you happen to be among the useful idiots who built or live in cities too near the shoreline
Ancient sea levels have been measured at higher elevations than current levels
Best get started on that Sea Wall…it needs to be LONG and it needs to be FAIRLY TALL and it needs LOCKS large enough for the biggest vessels

Last edited 13 days ago by Bryan A
Reply to  Dave Fair
February 18, 2021 7:21 pm

You are being entirely too logical.

Scare-mongers ignore logic, they contrive a 1.5C threshold of doom and attempt sleight-of-hand by only going back as far as accurate thermometers existed (in their mind).

The scam that humans are causing runaway warming that is not and cannot happen depends on IPCC theorizing of negative feedback from the small amount of warming that CO2 can cause, but climate parameters are not behaving that way.

(The ‘saturation effect’ limits the amount of temperature increase to an amount mostly achieved already, because of spectra overlap of carbon dioxide and dihydrogen monoxide vapour.)

Mohatdebos
February 13, 2021 6:58 pm

Reminds me of the opening vignette in Michael Crichton’s “State of Fear” where American environmentalists are trying to pressure an Icelandic geologist to withdraw his study showing that glaciers in Iceland were expanding.

EWSTX
Reply to  Mohatdebos
February 14, 2021 6:50 am

That book was how I found Anthony Watts. The endnotes in that book are incredible. I read everything I could get my hands on that he had used for research.

Outtheback
February 13, 2021 7:02 pm

And according to museum information in Sweden 4000 years ago the climate was like that of the Mediterranean today

Richard (the cynical one)
February 13, 2021 7:20 pm

Most inconvenient! There has to be a way to adjust the data, to smooth out this anomaly. Anyone have a hockey stick handy so we could beat it to death and bury it under a glacier?

fred250
Reply to  Richard (the cynical one)
February 13, 2021 7:36 pm

They could try making a hockey stick out of the tree stumps.

Very well seasoned wood ! 🙂

Jeff Alberts
Reply to  Richard (the cynical one)
February 13, 2021 7:49 pm

Just a mistake. The vegetation was actually growing a mile downslope and fell uphill.

Duker
Reply to  Jeff Alberts
February 13, 2021 8:28 pm

They’ll try that along with the beavers carried the trees uphill

fred250
Reply to  Jeff Alberts
February 13, 2021 8:29 pm

and fell uphill….

.

Where it planted itself

Eric Vieira
Reply to  fred250
February 15, 2021 3:39 am

Greta didn’t know prehistoric trees could fly…

commieBob
February 13, 2021 7:54 pm

This is similar to northern Canada. There used to be forests until around 3000 years ago and then it got colder. link

If we go back farther, to 56 million years ago, the arctic was positively lush. Why do people think the barren waste it now is is somehow a desirable condition?

DMacKenzie
Reply to  commieBob
February 13, 2021 8:04 pm

Don’t be ridiculous cB, global warming caused boreal forest fires followed by cooling due to soot blocking the sun and without trees to increase the water vapor in the air, it never got warm or wet enough for the trees to come back. There is always a suitable climate catastrophe explanation if you look for it.

Gary Pearse
Reply to  commieBob
February 13, 2021 9:40 pm

Google ‘redwood chunks’ found in the Ekati Diamond mine, which is located near the Arctic Circle in northern Canada. They dated at 50 million years and were perfectly preserved actual wood (even red in color).

Pat from kerbob
Reply to  Gary Pearse
February 14, 2021 12:41 pm

Interesting

goracle
February 13, 2021 8:29 pm

obviouosly, more right-wing fake news.

Rory Forbes
February 13, 2021 9:18 pm

This reminds me of the SLR controversy surrounding Nils-Axel Mörner’s “Tree of Truth”
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-famous-tree-on-Viligili-Island-in-the-Maldives-Mortensen-2004-Moerner-2007b-2011_fig3_332296376

A helpful AGW true believer has chopped it down now, I believe. I also think John (97.1%) Cook over at skepticalscience has “debunked” Dr. Morner. He’s such a clever little dickens.

Last edited 14 days ago by Rory Forbes
sky king
February 13, 2021 9:24 pm

Trees back then were adapted to living under glaciers.

Gary Pearse
February 13, 2021 9:31 pm

This not new, of course but why is it not widely acknowleged by scientists. This incontrovertible evidence, easily understood by non- scientific folk, instantly debunks the recent flurry of psuedoscience claims of today’s warmth being the highest in the Holocene.

The Climategate emails revealed that clisci perps were eyeing the obvious embarassments to the theory of Catastrophic Anthropo GW presented by paleoclimatology and history. Jokingly (wink, wink) I think it was the UEA dendro prof who mused – if only the Medieval Warm Period and the Little Ice Age could be ‘disappeared’ it would make ‘things’ a lot easier. This set the course for research with the end of doing just that!

Emboldened by how easy it could be put over, they subseqently rejiggered global thermometric readings to get rid of the 1930s- 1940s high temperatures that occurred in North America, Greenland, Iceland, Europe, South Africa Australia and even Paraguay, Ecuador and a bunch of other small countries. Remarkably, the raw temperature charts for each of these countries displays same pattern as that of the USA – a corroboration of each of them.

They “Karlized” the two decade “Pause” during which time CO2 had increased 30%! And now, using their Whack a Moley research design method, they are trying to deep six the the Holocene Optimum.

February 13, 2021 9:48 pm

The reason scientists call warm periods, like the current warm period, “climate optimums” is that they are unambiguously better than cold periods.

Here’s an illustration from a 1974 CIA study about the looming threat of global cooling. It shows how cooling temperatures adversely affect food supplies:
comment image

The benefits of rising temperatures are in addition to the very large direct benefits of rising CO2 levels, through “CO2 fertilization.”
comment image

Current globally averaged temperatures are warmer than they’ve been in hundreds of years, but probably similar to temperatures during earlier climate optimums, like the Medieval Warm Period, the Roman Warm Period, and the Bronze Age Warm Period. Most studies find that current temperatures are substantially lower than they were during the Mid-Holocene Climate Optimum [2] [3], and several degrees below what they were during warmest part of the Eemian Interglacial.

Here’s a NOAA graph showing their estimate of Eemian peak temperatures: about 3¼°C warmer than the Mid-Holocene Climate Optimum, which was a bit warmer than our current climate optimum (and quite a bit warmer, in Sweden, apparently):
comment image

Last edited 14 days ago by Dave Burton
gringojay
February 13, 2021 11:03 pm

Greta world is just full of wonder.

58020F88-5A99-4E71-95F1-DAD54D93C858.jpeg
Antero Ollila
February 14, 2021 12:50 am

This a well-known fact for those people capable of digging information outside of major media. Professor Matti Eronen was a leader of the research team that made a tree-ring presentation of 7413 years long – one of the longest in the world. The samples were found by diving trunks from the lakes in Lappland, the most northern part of Finland. The trunks were big ones and researchers say that the pine forests covered Lappland up to the Ice sea. Nowadays there are no forests.

We need no other evidence that there have been much higher temperatures during the Holocene than today. Those were the times when the human population spread over the globe.

February 14, 2021 1:56 am
meiggs
Reply to  HenryP
February 14, 2021 6:43 am

Henry, you link was blocked when attempted to launch via wuwt. Copied and pasted into Swiss Cows and got to see your mug shot. Interestingly cold weather here in the USA right now, maybe rising CO2 really does cause global cooling?

February 14, 2021 2:13 am

Polar tree-lines are perhaps one of the best and most reliable indicators of past climate temperatures. So this southward retreat of the Sweden treeline 9kya is very significant.

Only when the treeline returns to the same latitude again – and goes further – can present warming be truthfully called “unprecedented”. So far it’s not even close; and it never will be.

In other research, study of both current and ancient tree lines in Siberia show that the current northward extent of the treeeline, that has advanced due to warming, has only returned to the level where it was 1000 years ago during the medieval warm period (MWP). Very strong evidence for a global MWP, and again showing current warming not to be unprecedented and unusual but just cyclical and unexceptional.

https://ptolemy2.wordpress.com/2020/07/09/the-to-and-fro-of-the-siberian-taiga-tundra-treeline/

Last edited 13 days ago by Hatter Eggburn
griff
February 14, 2021 2:47 am

Well yes: but what should concern us is the temperature increase in northern Sweden in recent times: I recall there’s been an observatory looking at temps up there for over 120 years and that the re has been a steep increase in recent decades…

David Kamakaris
Reply to  griff
February 14, 2021 4:52 am

“but what should concern us is the temperature increase in northern Sweden in recent times”

Even with the temperature increase, it’s still nowhere near as warm as it was when trees were flourishing where none can grow today. So how about telling us what exactly it is that has your panties in a wad.

DonM
Reply to  David Kamakaris
February 14, 2021 10:29 am

no no no, griff … do not talk about your panty wad.

Tom in Florida
Reply to  griff
February 14, 2021 6:37 am

Why does warmer concern you? Warmer is better.

Hivemind
Reply to  Tom in Florida
February 14, 2021 11:02 pm

I’ve been cold, and I’ve been warm. I can assure you that warm is better, to paraphrase a famous lady.

Reply to  griff
February 14, 2021 6:39 am

A jump of a degree or two over a century or two is not necessarily a major threat per se – business as usual for the chaotic climate that the biosphere has always faced.

However such climate warming (or even cooling) combined with stress from reduced habitat, over-fishing and exploitation, habitat fragmentation, toxic pollutants – that’s a source of real concern and something to watch closely and to mitigate as far as possible.

mkelly
Reply to  griff
February 14, 2021 7:52 am

Griff, please do not include me in your “us”. I am not concerned. You have yet to explain what mechanism caused the temperature to be warmer than now thousands of years ago. Nor have you explained why that mechanism is not working again today.

Climate believer
Reply to  griff
February 14, 2021 8:28 am

but what should concern us is the temperature increase in northern Sweden in recent times”

Why?

Pat from kerbob
Reply to  Climate believer
February 14, 2021 9:42 am

Because different is terrifying to the new Luddites.
They like to call us skeptics “flat earthers” but it’s not us that denies climate change.
I accept it’s a roller coaster with fun downhill (warm) parts and boring, deathly (cold) parts.

The climate scientologists are the flat earther’s
The problem as always is they aren’t smart enough to understand that

Last edited 13 days ago by Pat from kerbob
Bryan A
Reply to  Pat from kerbob
February 14, 2021 10:20 pm

They’re a complicated lot that are excramentally susceptible to suffer from group think and psychological projection

Pat from kerbob
Reply to  griff
February 14, 2021 9:36 am

Griff, my current reading is “A Cultural History of Climate” by Wolfgang Behringer.

He lists innumerable pieces of hard evidence that the midevil warm period from all over the planet, what he calls the high Middle Ages warm period, was far warmer than today.
Endless examples of forests that were much higher up mountains and much further north, ancient forests appearing from under glaciers, large scale farming and settlements where only frozen tundra now exists. All of this required stable warmer periods for long periods of time. People didn’t decide to settle Greenland because there were 1-5 years of milder temps, an “anomaly”.

Compare this to the massive hand waving you and endless climate scientologists engage in when trying to defend your hockey sticks and other imaginary constructs.

The problem is that even tho you have religion you have weak belief.

The religion is based on the hypothesis that our CO2 is warming the planet. If you had stopped there it would be hard to argue as it can’t be proven or disproven. The perfect faith based system.

But because your faith is weak you then have to engage in fraud and try to erase previous warm periods to support your contention that today being warmer can only be caused by us.

Over reach is as bad as a coverup

You fail because your faith is weak

Last edited 13 days ago by Pat from kerbob
garboard
Reply to  griff
February 14, 2021 10:35 am

since the little ice age ?

fred250
Reply to  griff
February 14, 2021 11:50 am

ROFLMAO

NO! little griffter, Sweden has been MUCH WARMER in the past..

Warming is never a concern in cold countries.

COOLING is.

Stop your MANIC and very IDIOTIC PANIC at slight but highly beneficial warming

You continue to make yourself look like a total fool.

fred250
Reply to  griff
February 14, 2021 11:53 am

What is it about TREES under glaciers where none can grow now..

.. that you find so darn complicated that you can’t understand it. ???

I know you are INCREDIBLY slow-witted, vacuous and simple-minded..

… but do at least try.

MarkW
Reply to  griff
February 14, 2021 3:33 pm

So what? It’s been warm before, so this puts the lie to the claims of you alarmists that today’s temperatures are in any form “unprecedented”. It also puts the lie to the claims of the alarmists, that warmer temperatures must be bad for everything.

It takes a real grade A moron to claim that 0.7C degrees of warming over 120/150 years is “steep”, much less alarming.

Hivemind
Reply to  griff
February 14, 2021 11:01 pm

Griff, I remember when they had to change from the ‘unprecedented temperatures’ chant to the ‘unprecedented rate of warming’ chant; because there was clearly nothing unprecedented about the temperatures. So please don’t try to bring that particular activist fraud back by stealth.

wel
February 14, 2021 3:36 am

The tilt of the earths axis is decreasing at about 10 m per century at the surface. That 940 meters over 9400 BP years.

Tom in Florida
Reply to  wel
February 14, 2021 6:42 am

Except that obliquity changes one degree every 6833 years. So 6833 years ago obliquity was at max, 24.5. It has been decreasing since.
9400 years ago obliquity was greater than today at 24 and still increasing.

2hotel9
February 14, 2021 3:53 am

Funny, humans migrated into the northern regions because the climate was such it supported a wide variety of plants and animals from which they could feed themselves, not because they wanted to live in a barren, icy wasteland. Warmunistas would have us believe humans preferred barren, icy wastelands. What absolute idiots.

Sara
February 14, 2021 5:47 am

Well, that does it: just proves you can’t predict the weather back in those Olden Times of Yore. You can’t control it, either. You just have to deal with it and move on, and I realize that doing so is difficult for people whose notions of the past are that everything was stable when it wasn’t, but – well, they’ll just have to deal with it, won’t they?
I’m still trying to understand what the real issue is, aside from getting grants money.

John Monaghan
February 14, 2021 6:50 am

A good example of warmer times exists here in Alberta. The climate here was as much as 4 C warmer from about 8000 to 4000 years BP. Durimg that time the much vaunted Columbia Ice field did not exist. Where the Athabasca glacier is now stood a tall pine forest. As you can well imagine the river system looked quite different from present day.

ResourceGuy
February 14, 2021 8:01 am

Hide the (tree) decline.

John K. Sutherland
February 14, 2021 8:24 am

Please try not to mention ‘Scoldilocks’ by name. It merely boosts her on Google searches.

sendergreen
February 14, 2021 9:24 am

Sadly we now live in a “truth free zone”. The battle is not going to be won with real facts. The only winnable battle is in the sphere of politics. The US “election” proves that. If we don’t win majority legislatures, and executive positions in Western countries it won’t matter if a glacier slides through Montreal, Glasgow, and Antwerp. It will still be “DemonCO2”, and they will continue to dismantle not only western economies, but Western Civilization as well. And, beware of your countries version of “Rhino’s”. Like the faux conservative majority in the UK Parliament, and their plan to eliminate fossil fuel heating. Two weeks before ice formed on the Thames for the first time in 60 years.

Robert Bissett
February 15, 2021 12:57 pm

Sorry. I have to step in here with some cold, hard reason. Can you not see that the world ended 9300 years ago? Scorched earth. Dead. Gone. 3C is 5.4F and we know that is what we fear now happening. So, the burning question is who or what got the world going again and lowered the temperature? We need that info like now. /s

February 18, 2021 4:51 pm

Ayup, and there are tree [fossils] north of the current tree line in Canada.

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